What we know: Fuji purchases its APS-C sensors from Sony.
What is rumored: There is a special agreement between Sony and Fuji (& other manufacturers), that allows Fuji to use the latest Sony sensor only 6 months after Sony itself implemented it in one of its cameras. Sure, the “6 months sensor embargo clause” is “just” a rumor, no matter how reliable the source are that shared the rumor. In this particular case I investigated the rumor together with Andrea of SAR. We both agreed that there is such a clause in the contract.
_ _ _
Ok, you’ve read it on SonyAlphaRumors… Sony has delayed the release of the A7000 to February! So will the X-PRO2 be delayed, too?
Well, since some people seriously claim it’s in my interested to spread bad news so that I can make more traffic (weird, isn’t it?), today I’m happy to share a good news rumor with you (and I’m ready for the shitstorm from the same folks, who will now claim I spread good news just to make more traffic 😉 ). And here it is:
The source, who was right in the past and told us here the X-PRO2 will come in January, confirms the rumor. And now even another anonymous source, who uses a nick name and was right in the past (thanks), confirms: X-PRO2 will come in January.
So what… is the 6 months sensor embargo agreement just a rumor-phantasy? I don’t think so. Here some possibilities:
1) the agreements between Sony & Fuji have changed in the meantime
2) as a FR-reader suggested to me via email, “Fuji and Sony probably negotiated a “What if” clause, covering some of the contingencies if Sony failed to deliver on time. I have to believe that the Fuji lawyers were sharp enough to demand that everything wouldn’t be business as usual if Sony breached.”
3) the X-PRO2 will feature an older Sony sensor
4) the X-PRO2 will feature a Non-Sony sensor
5) After years of X-PRO2 (and X-PRO1S) rumor hunting, I’m now in a state of delirium and spread random rumors about it.
Sure, still take the grain of salt… at least until a trusted source can confirm that the X-PRO2 will come in January! But I’m carefully optimistic, that it will come in January.
stay tuned,
Fuji X Forum, Facebook, Google+, RSS-feed and Twitter
117 Responses
my bet – “the X-PRO2 will feature an older Sony sensor”.
Who cares about the “new” Sony sensor, just some more pixels? it would be great to see the organic 29 stops DR sensor and if not even the good old 16mp sensor would do just fine. Personally for a pro camera there are more serious questions. Will it do 4k well so that i can sell my GH4? Will it have a proper remote flash system so that i can sell my canon gear? Will it have a 8000th/sec mechanical shutter? Will it be properly rain, shock and dust proof? Will it have a serious pro support plan from Fuji? And less important: Will it have an internal sensor stabilizer for my primes? Will it have dual cards for security? Will there be a range of shift/tilt lenses?
Love my Fuji gear but i need all off this in a Pro system.
Agreed. I tried Fuji for paid work and it failed. GH4 AF performance in low light is amazing vs Fuji’s, it’s on complately different level: 95-97% shots spoted. With X-T1 about 50% missed and go to trash. Fuji is nice system but for slow photography, its cams do not offer even 1 Custom mode, and you get only 1 dirrect Fn button, 1 EV bracketing, no histogram. X-Trans was also mess for a few years. I have impression Fuji will always be 2-3 years behind competitors regading cam offer.
Better learn how to use a Fuji instead of crying for your GH4 then… oh wait.
I leave it for masochists who think they are teachers.
No, I think a masochist is somebody who complains to high heavens about fuji but still lingers around just to complain, while saying there are better options out there.
I have the impression you are 2-3 years behind most photographers. I don’t see any real problems. And if they are: go on, buy that GH4
“I tried Fuji for paid work and it failed.”
No, YOU failed.
Let me guess, you’re still contemplating on getting a full frame? Am I right or am I right?
No, I am still contemplating if Fuji will keep in X-Pro2 poor AF in low light. And I am affraid it will.
Many people use Fuji for paid work and for fun and it hasn’t let them down. Maybe you should check what’s on the otherside of the camera that is causing issues.
There was never a 29 stops organic sensor.
http://www.andrewgoodman.me/blog/photogrpahy/the-fujifilm-organic-sensor/
It’s too late.
I’ve sold my X100T, X-T1, and X-Pro1 and moved to an A7II and an RX1R.
Couldn’t be happier.
You potentially had me for life Fuji, but no Pro2, and no chance of moving to FF?
I adored my Fuji gear, but I’m equally happy with my Sony kit and I’m making better images with FF.
Good luck with the crappy handling of the new 100+ MB sized images or else horrible compressed RAWs.
A very narrow lens line-up, that makes for the need to to use adapters for lenses of brand x-y-z. But make the autofocus slow or non compatible at all.
The non existent Sony customer support (you’ll soon find out what I mean by that).
And of course a new camera every six month for a fix that could have been updated via a firmware release.
Wait. What size are those uncompressed Sony raws? You might want to look at what they actually are before guessing (hint: they turn out to be about 82MB for 42mp). Moreover, Fujifilm is notorious for storing raw files far larger than they need to be. Indeed, I’m working with X-T10 files at the moment: 33MB+ for 16mp. My 24mp D7200 files? 27MB.
So let’s see, when Fujifilm makes a 42mp camera their files will be…yep, over 82MB. So I guess we can call Fujifilm’s raw file handling “crappy” using your definition? ;~)
Fuji has zero compression on their output files, while Nikon does compress. Nothing wrong with compression when done right, but Sony has shown what can go wrong.
If Fuji is all such crap, then why don’t you fully switch over to Sony. Would be the obvious choice for somebody that seem to love Sony so much.
*scratches head, I thought Thom was all Nikon.
He’s just mining for a blog post material: http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/
(if it is him)
And exactly how would this discussion be “blog post material”?
I come to many Web sites for the same reasons others do: to see what people are saying and have discussions.
Ok, that was a severe speech pattern deviation. Chances that Thom Hogan would’ve constructed these two phrases like you did are close to nada, which means you’re playing in the same league as Arnold Newman (also frequent commenter here).
TL;DR version: I stand corrected, Thom Hogan is not mining for a blog material here and now.
Well this can easily be tested. Thom (here) just needs to tell us the title of the next article on bythom.com and we’ll all know it’s him when it appears there (or not).
For my part I think this sounds a lot like the real Thom.
You don’t seem to know who I am or the Web sites I run, one of which covers all mirrorless cameras. I call a spade a spade. Until the X-T1, Fujifilm also had terrible write circuitry in their cameras, so the combination of write speed and large files wasn’t exactly great. At least with the X-T1 they went to UHS-II and delivered some real write speed for a change.
Still, Fujifilm is about the last camera maker to not have some sort of compression in their raw files. If they’re going to go up in megapixels, they really need to address that.
I agree about the RAW compression. Nikon does lossless compression virtually perfectly which halves the file size with no loss in image quality.
Agreed. I wish my X-E1 had compression and faster write times. I’ve caught the camera waiting to finish writing before I can focus zoom for my next shot. I’ve even upgraded my SD card for a minimal improvement.
I shoot RAW, but when I owned the X-Pro 1 (and a 600x card that wrote 4FPS in RAW and JPEG on a D800) and shot events, I was constantly frustrated by write speeds, some of which would slow the camera down to 4 images in fifteen seconds. Usually those times were faster, but if the camera decided to think in the middle (usually after I had adjusted the frame), it slowed down crazily. Often I couldn’t even magnify an image without two or three presses and waiting.
Part of my problem was that I shot non-X mount lenses, but the camera, a lustily as it was designed, was such a write/think dog.
I sold it for an X100S, which was better but not by a lot, which I then sold after using for a few events and being constantly frustrated that I couldn’t reliably pre-focus or lock the lens to a specific distance when the camera was off, and purchased an M240. That camera, too is a slow writer, but not nearly as slow as the X-Pro 1.
One of the dirty secrets the camera makers don’t tell you is that they’re using outdated parts in several areas, most notably write circuitry and WiFi. That means that those 95Mbps cards work not really any better than 45Mbps cards, for instance. It means that your camera will be slower than your smartphone on the network.
To Fujifilm’s credit, with the X-T1 they embraced UHS-II, and if you use a UHS-II card in an X-T1 you can actually get state-of-the-art write performance. The camera would be even faster if Fujifilm weren’t writing uncompressed raw files, though. Probably as much as 1.5x faster in buffer performance.
Simply put, as much as you think the camera makers are “innovating,” they are actually mostly at the trailing edge of technology, not the leading edge.
Quite so.
Why would manufacturers not use lossless compression on RAW? Surely you get at least 2:1 average lossless compression on images?
Nikon achieves 1.8:1, which is about as good as I’ve seen.
That’s not bad though. I was going off the LTO standards which claim 2:1 (or 2.5:1 for LTO6), although reality varies considerably. I still don’t understand why people wouldn’t compress RAW, apart from maybe needing to understand the difference between lossy and lossless.
Thom says it below. If you don’t know who Thom is, and assume that he is a Sony fanboi, you have another think coming.
While I think he pussyfoots hardware UIs a bit too much, he is one of, if not the most level-headed concise reviewer of camera gear in the English language.
He publishes essays weekly (except when on assignment in Africa or on holiday) about HOW camera companies can improve software workflows, remove hardware inconsistencies, and improve customer ownership and utility.
Thom probably owns more mounts and cameras than the average user touches in her lifetime.
Good essays at:
http://www.ilo.org/global/topics/forced-labour/lang–en/index.htm
But great essays at:
http://www.dslrbodies.com
that liberally apply to all manufacturers at least in part.
EDIT: I am assuming that the ‘Thom Hogan’ posting here is the real one.
– He’s got an A7II, not A7R II, so his files will be no bigger uncompressed than the X-Pro2 files will be if Fuji doesn’t finally offer lossless RAW compression. And 100+ MB is BS either way. And let’s finally be honest: for most shooters the compression isn’t much of a problem either. “Horrible” is definitely the wrong word.
– Narrow lens lineup is true but getting better. If he’s happy it seems to fulfil his needs.
– Can’t speak about either customer support, so I won’t.
– Yeah, too frequent updates are stupid and annoying. But Sony’s cameras seem to be rather sophisticated at this point unlike Fuji’s first cameras, so the lack of FW updates isn’t that much of a problem.
Let’s just stop all this crapping on Sony, will we! He’s happy with his choice so let’s just be happy for him. Fuji and Sony can both be great. I love Fuji and I have my reasons for that. I don’t need Sony to suck to justify my choice.
Hear Hear –
The typical response that only real gearheads can give.
GAS all the way in need for the latest and greatest.
For me a camera system is more then just a sole camerabody.
When you’re on a date with a hot new girl, do you feel the need to call your ex and tell her “You potentially had me for life”, that you adored her but now you’ve moved on and “Couldn’t be happier” and that now “It’s too late” because the new one has bigger boobs that somehow will let you make better kids?…
Awesome response!
“I’m making better images with FF”
Define ‘better images’. Being on a larger sensor doesn’t automatically make pictures ‘better’. That’s the type of quote someone says that uses their camera to take pictures of their pets and flowers in their yard. But I do hope you have fun with slow glass and don’t go above 3200 ISO.
Yep, bigger enlargements of your cat. lol.
Yeah, those Damien Lovegroves and Zack Ariases and David Hobbies of the world…their images are just crap. If ONLY they used Sony A7 full frame cameras. Hahahahaha…
And all 3 on Fuji payroll
And getting gigs on other payrolls.
Nope. No salary for them. Perks, but no salary. So if you think they’re gonna be able to put food on the table by using a camera system that can’t deliver, think again.
If you wanna be with a camera company that’ll pay you a salary for pushing its brand, the only company with deep enough pockets right now is Canon. Rumor has it their top Explorers of Light get about $60K per year to travel around and talk up their products.
None of the other manufacturers have this kind of budget for such things.
So you are going to tell me that Fuji is not paying them for doing promotional events, they are doing this for free camera and few lenses?
That’s not what I said. What I said was no SALARY. Getting paid to do a few promotional gigs during the year, or getting some free gear in exchange is not gonna put food on the table, nor will you shoot with said gear professionally if it can’t deliver the goods. Perks don’t equate to making a living.
Those photographers I mentioned above shoot with the Fuji X-Series cameras professionally because they choose to do so. Zack also uses MF for certain applications … but that’s a separate discussion.
Get what I’m saying?
Yes I get it, they professionally promote Fuji cameras. Salary or not they are paid to promote Fuji products, and that was my only point. You started with salary and perks.
YOU said: “And all 3 on Fuji payroll.”
Payroll: “a list of a company’s employees and the amount of money they are to be paid”
Lovegrove, Arias and Hobby are NOT Fujifilm employees. They shoot with Fujifilm gear professionally and get certain perks [paid trips to Japan, free gear] to speak on behalf of the brand.
That’s a long way from being “on Fuji payroll”.
It’s much more likely that Fuji uses the “old” 24 MP sensor from the a6000. It’s a much better option for both Fuji and Sony: Sony would keep being one generation ahead of its competitors, while Fuji has much more time to work on the old 24 MP sensor which is already available than on the new sensor whose availability is uncertain.
#4 is the most exciting possibility: it could be the Fuji+panasonic organic sensor of our dreams, or they could have just switched to Samsung and will use the awesome 28mp BSI sensor from NX1/500, which in turn would boost competition against sony, who has taken over the sensor market almost entirely.
Lol, delirium. Who isn’t a little bit delirious when it comes to rumors about dream cameras. =) One must be for visiting places with *rumors in the url.
“Come in January” needs a clarification. Will we see an announcement and specs in January? Or the preproduction prototype will be shown at some expo?… I seriously doubt that it will hit the shelves in January (but one can hope)).
Most probably an “announcement” in January, with delivery sometime in the spring.
Fujifilm currently uses the old 16mp APS Sony sensor. There was a delay between that being initially available to others and Fujifilm mostly because you have to work out how to do the X-Trans toppings as the last step at the fab. Special work. Requires test and certification to insure yields.
Fujifilm didn’t move to 24mp yet for one reason: they don’t use a lot of sensors (compared to say, Nikon, who is ordering millions of DX sensors a year). In order to keep their costs down, they committed to some number of 16mp sensors. They’re likely to do the same thing at 24mp or whatever their next purchase from Sony is.
You don’t need “secret embargo clauses” to explain Fujifilm’s sensor process. They need a sensor to be already produced on the fab, then they have to conduct experiments to make sure that they can get the X-Trans toppings with high yield, then they can tell Sony to make a run of said sensor. The implication of this is that Fujifilm will ALWAYS be behind others in sensor use as long as they insist on using X-Trans. Their only other choice is to pay big bucks to get prioritized first on the fab. And I mean huge bucks. Won’t happen.
Fuji will keep on using X-Trans now they have it!
The ‘Bayer color filter’ was an initial invention of……
The Kodak Eastman Company.
I am not a believer that they will use an ‘old’ sensor.
It will be new technology. The only remaining big question is, will it be from Sony, Toshiba, Aptina or Samsung.
Well that’s easy. We can rule out Aptina because they were acquired and are moving out of the standalone camera market. We can rule out Samsung as they have yet to license large sensors to anyone (from my friends in the business, one reason is that they’re asking too much money compared to the competition). Toshiba uses a Sony EXMOR type design ;~). So there’s really not a remaining big question. Moreover, I’d expect Fujifilm to want to work with whom they’ve been working with, otherwise they have to do the full color R&D cycle all over again (EXMORs and Sony dies have been consistent in spectral handling, even across generations).
The only question in my mind is what Sony sensor generation will Fujifilm use, and how long will they use it for this time? Given their very low yearly volume, they can’t justify changing sensors every year or two. Fujifilm was late to use the 16mp sensor. I believe they’ll be late to use the 24mp sensor.
Thom, of all the crap I’ve read on this forum your words are polarising. How refreshing to read something informative and eloquent.
I’d be interested to hear what you think is around the corner.
I am an x shooter often wondering if I should just get a d800, not so much for me, but for my clients, some of which question my choice of camera and resolution, especially if they have a big canikon dslr themselves.
When I first moved to xtrans this was new and exciting so that helped but now I feel they see this as a bit amateur. Though currently the xt1 is more than enough for me on a personal level along with my x100s.
If you’re clients are only concerned about what gear you’re using, then they don’t have enough faith in your ability … and you may need to look at that.
If “by around the corner” you mean for Fujifilm, then basically (a) 24mp, (b) new EVF tech; (c) continued incremental additions to get to a very full “pro DSLR” level of feature set; and (d) fix the video. Plus more lenses and a slight rethink about the right body set (right now A, M, E, T1/10, Pro). Flesh out some accessories, such as better flash and WiFi connect.
TheCat: As one random point of reference, I shoot both Nikon D800 and Fujifilm X-T1. If you need resolution for landscapes and RAW files that really bend (pulling up shadows with little noise, recovering highlights, etc.), the D800 (and newer D810) and amazing. The X cameras just can’t match the resolution. BUT… the X cameras are LIGHT and FUN and easier to bring on adventures, so they are much more versatile. I seem to get more creative and interesting shots when I shoot X. So there is a trade off.
Ask yourself why you want a D800. Is it because you need more resolution? Or is it just for appearances? In which case, the vertical grip for the X-T1 and a fancy leather strap and case may be all you need. 🙂
If you say Sony is the only choice, you are just plain wrong.
Even if you are Thom Hogan.
There are few choices left for large sensors, and many of them are problematic in one way or another. Even Sony is now problematic, as they are basically at capacity due to all the small sensor stuff they’re producing and their own growing needs.
The most natural thing outside of Sony for Fujifilm would be to get Panasonic to make larger sensors for them. But that has problems. Remember, Fujifilm wants phase detect on sensor, and they’re going to want it to be the same or an evolution of what they’re using, otherwise you end up having to do focus coding and testing all over again.
There’s a lot of assumptions in there. I’d caution against putting money on some of them.
Which leads us then to possibility 3). Would make sense to me. I don’t really care if they use the A6000 or the A7000 sensor, as long as they don”t screw up the handling of the camera – as they did in the beginning with the pro 1. The image quality of the pro 1 is already good enough for me. I also don”t need more than 16 MP. It’s the improvements in handling I want to see. A real leica M competitor in terms of that.
Fujifilm could probably start using the 24 MP in its higher-end cameras, and finish its older stock of 16 MP sensor by using it in lower-end cameras.
They’re stuck with the X-trans now. Dropping it could attract some people (count me in!) but they would also create a lot of discontent among current users.
Yep … which is just further impetus to get out from under Sony’s apron-strings, and probably explains why Fujifilm and Panasonic are hard at work developing the organic / geomembrane sensor tech.
What about the reports of a 5.0 firmware update for the X-T1? Is that just a rumor or has a 5.0 update been confirmed? And if so, any idea what will be in the update? Assume some or all of what will be in it will also be in the X-Pro2?
Expect what initially was meant to be in Fw 4.0.
A Big updates to the flash system. 😉
The only real reason Fuji gave us a new autofocus system was the delay of the X-Pro 2.
They will use a lot of users I guess if they upgrade to 24mp without usable ISO to 12800.
They will loose a lot of users if they don’t improve drastically the AF in low light
My bet is six months from now, we’ll still be on here bitching about there being no X-Pro2 announcement yet.
You will lose that bet. That’s a fact.
+1
They already lost many. Fuji is behind all competitors in AF in low light. I am really affraid X-Pro2 AF will perform same poorly in low light as X-T1.
That “old” 24 Megapix Sony sensor seems mighty good! I just wish they could skip that X-Trans thing.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=sony_a6000&attr13_1=fujifilm_xt1&attr13_2=nikon_d7200&attr13_3=oly_em5ii&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=200&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=200&attr126_3=normal&attr171_3=on&normalization=full&widget=1&x=0.34188972065640083&y=1.0135811807310615
I’m with you there! And likewise, the image quality of the Nikon DX cameras (Sony 24mp) over the past few years is exceptional–great resolution and dynamic range. Throw a 3yo Sony sensor into an X-T2 and I’d still be happy. Only thing I don’t like about X-Trans is that so many RAW software vendors don’t support it or don’t support it properly. I’d rather have compatibility and ease of workflow.
Agreed. This is why I put the quotation marks! After a lot of investigating, I personnally see a big differences between camera/lenses that take pictures that below or above 10 MPix equivalent (per dxo mark). A 16 MP sensor is therefore fine if you have a great prime lens, but with less sharper lenses (zooms), the MP bump makes a big differences to my eye.
Until then, I will continue shooting with my DP Merrills and my X-Pro 1.
Although I am hoping for a considerable improvement in dynamic range and resolution in the X-Pro 2, I don’t need much of an improvement in high ISO performance.
I hope Fuji and Panasonic have completed their development of the organic sensor, so they can end their dependance on Sony for sensors.
Because using Sony sensors is bad why exactly?
Aside from being a monopoly for the most part; lord forbid Fuji being confined to the almighty Sony?
Because if you can develop as good or better technology in-house, you’re not dependent on a third-party supplier.
That is very true, but I don’t see Fuji developing their own sensors any time soon.
It really depends on what happens with this Panasonic-Fujfilm-[Toshiba?] organic sensor tie-up. I would say both companies have a lot of impetus to make it work.
because monopolies on technology benefit no-one but the company with the monopoly
Haha! Patrick. I go for number 5 🙂
No, seriously, I can live with all explanations, except 5… but I really hope for number 4.
Up to 4 years is a reasonable time to wait for a replacement… Jan 2016 or never. You guys had plenty of time to figure it out, deal with Sony or whoever is supplying it.
Once again, any possible relationship that Fuji has with Sony, is with Sony Semiconductor, not Sony Imaging. Either way, at this point, we don’t know if the X-Pro 2 will use a forthcoming Sony sensor, an older existing sensor (doubtful, IMO, or they’d have released it by now), a sensor from another manufacturer…or even a brand new “organic” sensor.
There was rumor floating around a few months ago that Olympus’ E-M1 successor would next year use a geomembrane sensor (effectively an organic sensor), so it’s quite possible that that technology is on the cusp of being introduced.
Then there was the rumor last month that Fujifilm, Panasonic and Toshiba were going to make a joint announcement soon.
Then there’s the new full frame Leica mirrorless camera that’s being co-developed with Panasonic, which Leica claims will have the best high ISO performance in the industry (quite a claim since the sensor is unlikely to come from Sony). So there could be some interesting new tech on the horizon…
So as usual, we’ll have just have to wait and see.
Patric, I think you are highly infatuated with Sony sensor BS. A camera is `more than one sensor and there are highly regarded cameras in the market that do not use your preferred Sony sensor i.e Leica Q. Please stop this Sony sensor BS!! Almost 95% of your post have something to do with Sony sensor BS. Can you come with sensible motions to discuss instead of this nonsense?
sure… feel free to discuss any other of the rumors about the X-PRO2 I’ve shared so far
– APS-C sensor (TS + AS + AS)
– 24MP sensor (AS) – More than 16MP (AS)
– 1/8000 of a second mechanical shutter speed (TS)
– Sync Speed faster than 1/180th (SRP)
– about the same size of current X-PRO1 (NeS)
– dual SD card slot (NeS)
– coming late 2015 (TS + AS)
– delayed to 2016 (TS)
– coming in January 2016 (SRP)
– weather sealed (TS)
– tilt screen (AS)
– WiFi (AS)
– Price about 20% to 30% more expensive than the X-T1 (AS)
– 4K video (TS + NeS)
– Faster Processor EXR III (TS)
Any rumors of IBIS ? I’d love to use the 90mm and most primes on a 5 axis stabilized fuji body.
Woaw….basing a rumor on a rumor. Can it get any better?
sure, basing a rumor on nothing is even worst.
Ever heard of a dream within a dream?
Some day I’d like a real industry expert to come out and explain us what kind of deals are typically made between sensor manufacturers and camera brands. The thing is, right now companies enforce complete secrecy about this and you’ll have the hardest time finding official information even about something as simple as Fuji admitting that they use Sony sensors. So until someone from the inside with the proper credentials or history speaks out, I tend to consider anything that’s written about Fuji/Sony industrial relationships and agendas to be pure speculation.
You may want to try asking this guy: http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com.by
Thanks ! He couldn’t confirm or deny the rumor per se but interestingly enough, things seem to be a little more complex than “camera brand X has to buy a Sony sensor off the shelf as-is” in reality.
Of course. And there’s so much more to the CFA than most people think.
Nikon also uses Sony sensors and that doesn’t stop Nikon being better than Sony.
I can only hope that when the x-pro2 and X-t2 are available, we can all say Fuji has listened to it’s users, and we all agree Fuji has made game changing cameras.
I am waiting for the X-T2 and Canon 5D4 to see which way I finally go 100%
i heard there will never be an xpro-2 it’s just going to be in rumor state for the rest of eternity so that fujirumors gets more hits
Based on that info I will sell my xpro1 on Dec 1 this year.
Meanwhile I’ll pick up a cheap Nikon coolpix A (what a shit name) to pass some time.
Cheers
everyones taking about sensor brands and I’m just over here like “please add some serious video capabilities for us guys who do stills and filmmaking.”
no IBIS rumors until now
Never mind the trolls Patrick. You’re doing great work!! Thank you!!!
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2015/09/trolls.jpg
Isn’t January a terrible time to push out a new product? Everybody had already spent all their money two months ago.
X-T1 was launched in late January… and it was a terrific success for Fujifilm 🙂
‘We both agreed that there is such a clause in the contract.’
What absolute nonsense! You have been stating this as fact for months if not years and it is based in realty 0%. There is zero evidence to support this claim you are just making this stuff up as you go along and essentially creating your own rumours / reality.
Sony produce sensors and they have a list of available sensors to third party OEMs. These are the sensors that companies like Nikon and Fuji buy. They can get modified versions of these in quantity if they want with different sensor stacks and the like.
Here are some sensors that haven’t been available to third parties, ever:
A6000 / A5100 sensor
NEX-7 sensor
RX100 MkI sensor
RX100 MkIV sensor
A7S sensor
RX1R sensor (though this is really just a different sensor stack)
A7S sensor
A7R II sensor
A7 / A7 II sensor
A99 sensor
FS100 sensor
FS700 sensor
In fact Sony haven’t made a sensor with OSPDAF available other than the old NEX-5R / NEX-6 sensor.
There is a newer 24MP APS-C sensor available and this is probably what is going into the X-Pro2. This has absolutely nothing to do with whatever goes into the A7000 (or whatever it will be called) and is just the next new APS-C sensor. The reason there has been no A6000 based sensor in updated Fuji’s is not because there is some made up 6 month wait period, it has never been made available.
Even Olympus has to use Panasonic sensors to get OSPDAF, Sony make some m43’s sensors like those used in the E-M5, E-M10 etc and even likely the GX8 but not with PDAF (Panasonic doesn’t use PDAF).
This rumour is completely bunk. I can’t think of a single instance where this is true. There ‘may’ be some advanced testing and development for closely related big partners like Fuji and Nikon, where they get their hands on these sensors before they are widely available, but they are still ‘just’ the sensors that are widely available. Most of Sony’s sensors used in house are not, but there are some exceptions:
The 16MP sensor widely used without PDAF, the 20MP APS-C used in low end models (that essentially replaced this 16MP sensor) and the 1″ BSI sensor used by everyone creating 1″ compacts, like G7X, FZ1000, RX100 II – III etc.
It’s matter of trust: when a source said in January “Hey Patrick, the X-T10 will come in May”, I could have reacted like you and say: “This rumor is completely bunk. I can’t think of a single instance where this is true. There is ZERO evidence to support this claim.” Even when I leaked the images, I could have said “There is ZERO evidence that these are real images! Go home, stupid source.”
But I decided to turst them, and luckily in 90% I made a good choice, since rumors are correct.
In this case I decided to trust the source, too. It was right multiple times in the past, so I don’t know why the source should try to fool me. Anyway, I trusted.
Of course it’s up to you to decide if you trust me or not.
And just at the end… you say that such an agreement does not exist. Can you proove it? Can you show me the contract and proove me that such a clause does not exist? Do you have at least some insider at Fuji, who told you that I’m wrong? Insiders who already shared multiple times correct rumors with you?
What contract? What are you even talking about? You really are just a dimwit aren’t you?
So come on, what is this special contract that says they will only supply their sensors 6 months after they have implemented it in their own products?
Picture this, Sony have a little shop that sells these little sensors and as a customer you can wander into the shop and see what all the different sensors in there that Sony make on display. Now some of these will have a price next to them that say ‘X quantity = $Y per unit’ etc. others though have a little sign next to them that says ‘not for sale’.
Fuji can wander into this shop and they can buy any of the sensors in there that have a price next to them, the ones that say ‘not for sale’ they can’t, these ones are only for use by Sony.
Now there is no contract required for this, they offer certain things for sale and not others. The ones for sale are available when they are available, Sony can buy them, Fuji can buy them, heck Canon can buy them or I can buy them.
Now there IS likely to be the case where the little shop might show the sensors to customers and say ‘this is a new one we are making it will be available to buy in x number of months’ because these customers might want to start developing around these new sensors, so they will get some samples. This has nothing to do with Sony using them or not, it’s just they aren’t available in quanity yet.
Now in specific cases, like Fuji, where they want to have a modified version to include X-Trans CFA, then Sony might turn around and say ‘well we can do a production run but it will be 6 months after initial production runs of this sensor, so you will have to wait 6 months. This is NOT the same thing as Sony giving everyone their sensors after 6 months as a blanket rule. Many of their sensors are NEVER available for sale or if they do change their mind at some point is much further down the track.
It is not some made up contract where Sony are obliged to sell Fuji any sensor they want after a 6 month wait period like you keep suggesting.
How do I know this? Because that is what Sony PUBLICALLY have said. Don’t need your special ‘sources’ to know this. What you are saying is nonsense, that maybe you have just been confused about, but you need to be careful when you state junk like this as facts, because people reprint it and it becomes ‘Internet facts’, facts nobody bothers to check because someone seemingly credible posted it somewhere.
What your source MAY have been telling you is that Fuji had to wait 6 months for a new sensor due to their customisations. Indeed a few months back Sony announced a new 24MP APS-C sensor that is widely available to purchase from Sony. In all likelihood this is the sensor that Fuji will be dropping in the new X cams. Incidentally the GX8’s 20MP sensor was announced at the same time, maybe Panasonic had to wait 6 months while Sony sells it’s 20MP m43’s camera before they could use it? 😛
So there could be some truth in the 6 months dealy… you say it has another reason, I say it’s some kind of embargo. Anyway, 6 months are 6 months.
You also say “How do I know this? Because that is what Sony PUBLICALLY have said. ” … Any link to this public statement is appreciated.
That said, I think I’m right, you think I’m wrong. Life is too short to convince you about that. I prefer to trust my source, who spread over 20 correct rumors in 3 years… and was never wrong. Still no guarantee that it is correct… it is just… a rumor from a stupid source 😉
*sigh*
I’m sorry Patrick, you seem to be misunderstanding both me and likely your source. The way you state it is to say that as a blanket contract Sony get all their sensors first and then after 6 months everyone gets them and this is a specific 6 months every time, that they are contractually obliged to give them to Fuji etc after 6 months.
This is in no way the case. Sony make three types of sensors, 1) Sensors ONLY for Sony (there are many examples of this I listed in my previous post). 2) Sensors that they make available for for purchase, these are available to anyone and are available when they come off the production line, an example is the 20MP APS-C sensor or the 16MP that is used in many cameras, another is the 24MP used by Nikon (both APS-C and FF), the 16MP m43’s, 1″ BSI in the FZ1000 and so on. 3) They make sensors only for Sony that they MAY make available later on for third parties.
Now you could argue what your saying is the third case, however it is the way you say it, that they are obliged to give these sensors, under contract after 6 months. By you also state it as an overall and applies to all their sensors and that this is some kind of ongoing agreement as a supplier. It is this part that is nonsense.
If this were true then why doesn’t Fuji have the 24MP sensor from the A6000? It’s been out longer than 6 months. I will tell you why, the A6000 sensor is NOT available for sale. They make a similar sensor without PDAF and slower that they sell to Nikon for cameras like D5500 and D7200, but without the PDAF is rather useless to Fuji. So Fuji need to wait patiently for a sensor that does that Sony will sell to them, they aren’t standing there pointing at their mythical contract going ‘where is our A6000 sensor Sony?! You’ve had yours for 6 months now you are obliged to give them to us!’.
This may mean that Fuji are either waiting for this new sensor (the one Sony announced a little while back as being available for third parties), they MAY have to wait additional time for a X-Trans version OR Sony are finally making the A6000 sensor available to third parties after nearly 2 years (NOT 6 months).
But there is very little chance that it is in any way connected to an A7000 or any delays there. Even if the A7000 sensor is something that they offer for sale at some point, they are in no way obliged to do so and there is no fixed ‘6 month embargo period’ after which Fuji can do what they like.
Lastly there IS the possibility that Sony has an embargo of 6 months on sensor specifications / release for new sensors that they are giving advanced testing with. That is when they are bringing out a new sensor that is widely available (or will be) and Sony gives them samples to start developing with, that there is an embargo on those sensors being announced by the third party during this time so that Sony can keep their sensor plans secret. Again this is not the same thing.
Just as a corollary to this, the Nikon D800 used a Sony-designed and Nikon-tweaked sensor. It was the first of its kind and we didn’t see it show up in a Sony camera until quite a bit later with the A7r.
So it’s erroneous to claim that Sony Semiconductor forces clients to sit around and stand on ceremony while they wait for Sony Imaging to bring it out in a camera first. As the D800 aptly demonstrated, sometimes the outside client gets to have the more advanced sensor first!
‘Anyway 6 months is 6 months’
NO. Read what I wrote below. 6 months isn’t the issue. I am sure there are many reasons why your source has said they have to wait 6 months, but none of them are that that is how long Sony make them wait while they release a product first to market.
Want to understand my point further? Ok so in another sensor category not of interest to Fuji, Sony brought out a new 42MP 135 sensor in the A7R II, now people on the Internet assume that Nikon will get this sensor in a few months after this 6 month window has expired because people like you are propegating this myth that everyone gets the sensors after a 6 month period. Wrong! Nobody will be getting this sensor but Sony. That doesn’t mean that Sony won’t release a different new sensor that Nikon etc will use, but it won’t be this exact sensor and it has nothing to do with Nikon having to wait 6 months.
This is the same as the relationship between the A7000 and X-Pro2, they aren’t linked in any way. Sony will have a ‘Sony only’ sensor for the A7000 and Fuji will get a widely available Sony sensor, whether that will be this sensor that was announced a few months back, or one that is yet to be announced and therefore has an embargo placed on it that Fuji can’t announce their product. IF Sony have decided to use one of their own sensors that are going to be widely available, such as the one used in the A5000 or RX100 III for example, then when the sensor is available (and announced) Fuji will have it, nothing to do with Sony’s camera being available (say in the instance that there is a delay with the A7000 camera).
You’re being too harsh on Patrick and I think your expectations are way outta wack. These rumor sites are basically small communities of people with shared interests – but remember, they’re rumor sites. Not factual, and one of the features of these sorts of communities is that they reflect back their own rumors. So people read stuff here, it becomes ‘real’ in their minds, and thus the springboard for further rumors. So it’s “common knowledge” now that Fuji buys Sony chips and all these constraints surround that purchase – I suspect this is repeated and amplified by many of the readers here, despite a complete lack of real data. But remember the overwhelming structure here: rumors, i.e., hear say, gossip. Add in speculation (which equals hopes as much as logic) and you get exactly what it’s like at work in the breakroom. It’s fun, occasionally helpful, and totally harmless. So I find a lot of it silly too, but so what? Certainly not worthy of any vitriol. And has nothing (IMHO) to do with photography – as I was just reminded when I tripped over yet another random flickr stream of stunning photos and then I checked the exif and discovered they’re all taken with a cheap P&S. Yet spectacularly nice. Back to wishing my camera actually made me a better photographer….
http://www.fujirumors.com/sony-a7000-aps-c-sensor-with-bsi-and-24-or-about-30-mp-same-specs-of-fuji-x-pro2-with-polls/
http://www.fujirumors.com/x-roadmap-20142015-weather-sealed-lenses-and-full-frame-x/
http://www.fujirumors.com/sony-a7000-aps-c-sensor-with-bsi-and-24-or-about-30-mp-same-specs-of-fuji-x-pro2-with-polls/
And more.
This idea that there is a ‘6 month embargo clause’ suggests that these brands already have the sensors in their cameras but aren’t allowed to ship them due to contract constraints, which is again nonsense. But these things get repeated over and over and they become ‘fact’ due to persistence.
A lot of bloggers need to understand the responsibilities they have, but we can expect more of this in the future, the only way these things might change is if we call them on it rather than making excuses for them. We have whole generations of people who cannot take criticism because we always protect them (sorry for the tangent).
I like criticism. So please, any link, evidence, proof, official and public statement from Sony or Fuji, denying the 6 months embargo, is highly appreciated, and I’ll then ask my trusted source why it told me that, and, despite its excellent rumor hit rate (100%), take everything the source says from now on with… a grain of salt 😉
If we were talking about something that mattered, say vaccines or planned parenthood, I might agree. But with regard to rumor sites – geez, horse. barn. Internet.
Whatever it might become, this A7000 sensor fails to be the kind of organic FF-killer miracle a lot of people have been expected. The harshest statement one can make about Fuji’s X-Pro2 is ‘here comes another Sony-clone’. Of course, with X-trans CFA and graphical processor tweaking from Fuji but still, it’s being launched in an arena where FF is king and that doesn’t give me a lot of solid faith in Fuji’s further success. The X-Pro2 will not be cheap at its release and it will ‘only’ step up to a 24MP APS/C sensor – likely won’t offer an IBIS kind of stabilization and a zillion features like even 4K – it just doesn’t tick all the boxes of what most people expect from an expensive ‘top of the range’ camera. The X-Pro1 was aiming at the last on the throne of the RF-realm – but it never got out of the shadow of the far better positioned M9 and thus remained some kind of ‘poor man’s Leica’. In 2015 we see how the complete MILC market picture and expectation has changed, look at all the current Sony vs. Fuji chatter. I’ve been indicating this for such a long time – if Fuji had built the higher end X-series from day one around the 24/36MP Sony full frame sensors but with applying the same X-trans concept, they could have owned the ultimate dream formula for EVERY advanced/pro shooter. Now Fuji has something that looks like a race-car – build with light materials – but equipped with an engine nearly identical to the neighbours’ small hatchback. Also in car-design that kind of strategy has always been difficult to sell and the result is that Fuji remains somewhat in between – despite all the fan-blogging Fuji will never be considered as the ultimate swiss knife in camera design and that won’t change a bit with this Sony’s compact APS/C heart beating inside. While I think we don’t have seen the best yet… look at what’s happening with Leica and possibly Panasonic releasing a real full-frame (AF…)solution. The Leica Q was already a decent promise something big was in the air. When Panasonic wants to kill its disturbing Sony and Fuji competition they might be very close now to do so.