UPDATE: Sony announce the stuff today (May 16):
Sony A7s preorder in USA at Amazon US (Click here), BHphoto (Click here), SonyStore (Click here).
RX100M3 preorders in USA at Amazon (Click here), BHphoto (Click here), SonyStore (Click here).
RX100M3 preorders in Eu at Sony DE, UK, ES, FR, IT, NL, BE, AT, CH, SE, NO, FI, PT.
RX100M3 in Asia at Amazon Japan.
Sony A7s EU pages (no preorder yet): Sony DE, UK, ES, FR, IT, NL, SE, FI, PL.
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Tomorrow (May 15) is the big Sony announcement day and you have to follow it live on May 16 (5-6 am London time) on SonyAlphaRumors.
A7s: And right now the official Sony Luxemburg store has listed the final A7s price which is set at 2295 Euro! Shipment will be late July! The same store sets the price of the A7r at 1899 Euro. That makes the A7s 20% more expensive. We can speculate the price in US to be 20% higher than the A7r too ($2295 here at Amazon). It would mean the A7s could price could be around $2750. UPDATE: The site now removed the pricing info!
RX100M3: Sony Luxemburg also leaked the RX100MIII price which is 849 Euro (which confirms our rumors were right!). Shipment July 8!
Stay tuned on SAR!!!
Thanks to the anonymous source for sending me the links 😉
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A7s Preorder or pure notification store links:
USA: Sony US, Amazon and BHphoto.
Europe: Sony DE, UK, ES, FR, IT, NL, SE, FI, PL.
Asia: Digitalrev
Reminder: You will need the Atomos Shogun at BHphoto (Click here) to grab 8bit 4:2:2 4K video.
RX100M3 specs reminder:
20MP sensor (same as RX100M2 model)
ISO 125-25600
24-70mm f/1.8-2.8 lens
Built in View finder (SVGA OLED Tru-Finder 1440k dots)
Tiltable screen (180 degrees up)
Record in XAVC S format (Same format of the Sony A7s but with no 4K output option).
Almost same size and weight as the current RX100/M2 models.
I have been told all other specs are the same of the current RX100II model.
Price is said to be around 800-850 Euro in Europe. Should be around $800-850 in USA (US price is my guess)
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Message to sources: You can send me more info anonymously by using the contact form you see on the very right of your browser. You can also contact me directly at sonyalpharumors@gmail.com.
For readers: Subscribe the RSS feed (Click here) and Twitter (Click here) stream and the Facebook fan page (Click here) in order to not miss any news!
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Reminder (SR = Sonyrumor):
SR1=probably fake rumor
SR2=rumor from unknown sources
SR3=50% chance it is correct
SR4=rumor from known sources
SR5=almost certainly correct!
0 Responses
Toy body, pro price. Sony Style.
LoL
In your keyboard, someone swapped the H key with the C key.
lolercopterz.
Seems our prayers weren’t answered
LoL
it’s strange swiss stores list prices in euros, don’t they suppose to be in CHF? and in swtizerland’s case, most of the times if you have to use euros they will just do a 1:1 exchange. that’s quite a bit difference.
Sorry my mistake. It’s Luxemburg! 🙂
I doubt many people will buy it for that price, even though it hasn’t got any real competition.
OK – if that price of $2750 is accurate, then it pretty well bears out my theory that the A7S is priced to significantly undercut the Canon 5D MK II, but will be at a premium to the “standard” A7 and the GH4S as a specialist low-light optimised video camera.
The link is pointing to Luxembourg, not Luzern. And I guess, the Sonycenter in Lucerne wouldn’t post prices in CHF.
ops sorry. corrected. My mistake. I was checking Sony luzern store before 🙂
Wow! surpass my speculation price of $2500 @@” Let see how well Sony will sell this model at $2750 and see how well this model perform in those benchmarks 🙂
Sorry for the Luzern Luzemburg mistake. I still have to take my coffea to wake up my few Neurons…
Definitely too much.
Because you have to ask the question like this….
WHAT WILL IT GIVE ME FOR 800 EURO MORE OVER THE A7?
… a little less noise, but also less detail… for that money you can get a stabilized Canon 35/2 and the A7 body…
So NO, thank you.
S-log2. If that means nothing to you, then you don’t want the a7S.
8 bits make s-log2 an art filter, not a professional tool.
Try grading that 8 bit image and you will soon find out.
Yes, the Arbroath Smokies video looked terrible. Banding everywhere. And no one would ever use Canon cine log on a C100 or C300, because 8 bits is obviously not enough precision for that much dynamic range.
There will quite a bit of reasoning like this that will work against the price of the A7s. You have to admit it though, there are quite a few camera body (only) choices from Sony! 🙂
I agree. Thatswhy I am a loyal SONY body customer for some years, since the NEXes came… I will probably wait for some time and use my A7 until then. I just really wanted the A7s because of low and natural light shooting and because my legacy lenses would be sharper on the 12MPix compared to the 24. But until the reviews and DXOmark DR and noise score is out, I will be loyal to my A7 :>
For stills not much, but the A7 video quality is way worse than this, line skipping, moire and with a worse codec as well.
The A7S also built better with metal front panel and also metal mount.
And it should stiff AF even in very low light like the GH4.
It is still priced higher than it should but it is still worth pointing out.
I agree… The video quality from the A7 is really bad :<
The comparisons and real reviews will answer that question.
Remember, the a7s is using a new sensor not found in any other camera. The price for the a7 is so low because the sensor has been so well utilized and production costs for it by now are low (it’s in the a99, rx1, Nikon d600, & vg9000).
This is not a Sony country store, but just a Sonycenter, i.e. not the “Sony Luxemburg” but a “Sonycenter in Luxemburg”.
There is only one Sony center in small Luxemburg. Therefore Sony center is Sony Luxemburg 🙂
I don’t think so, this are just Sony partners, i.e. electronic retailers.
Sony centers usually do not sell for official sony prices, just compare any Sony center prices with official Sony country online store prices.
Official Sony A7r price in Austria: 2099,-
A Sony center price (Innsbruck): 1899,-
Remember this is an OFFICIAL Sony store. If they put that price they do it because they know it 🙂
A official Sony store that publishes photos of the M2 with the details of the M2 as an M3 pre-order? http://hauser.lu is the LU Sony center holder. I’ll give you an SR4 for that, at max 🙂
The Sony USA online store makes strange errors like that pretty frequently. Is rather the wrong photo than wrong information – the a99 product page (on Sony.com) had erroneous information about the a99’s uncompressed video output for over a year.
I’m afraid Michael is right. It is not a Sony store. It is clearly stated in the “about us” section that they are an “official partner/retailer”, just like B&H, Adorama, etc. They also list APS-C NEX lenses instead of FE as the only recommended lenses for the A7S…
Ahhh now I know what you mean. No, it’s not sony “online” store as we know from other countries (like Sony.de). But This is Sony’s official partner store with a REAL store in Luxemburg:
“SONY CENTER LUXEMBOURG official partner and authorized SONY.”
And they even use “sony in their domain. I am 100% sure they list the real price .Of course take into acocunt that Luxemburg has different tax and VAT system so price in other EU countries will be different.
In fact, this is the only official Sony center in Luxemburg. And yes, as Michael said this is a store former known as Electro-Hauser but it completely switched towards Sony exclusive products.
I remember buying my A77 there as it was the only place in Luxemburg to get it (they told me that Sony was delivering them in priority before going to big stores) and it was sold out in all neighboring countries.
And yes Andrea, take into account that we (still) have a low VAT at 15%, but I would guess that prices won’t be higher in Germany even with a higher VAT…
200€ lower than I expected from Sony…
Even at that price many will consider buying it, me included.
Here we go… wait to hear about how everyone’s leaping from the top floor because of the a7s price… because the GH4 is this and that… how Sony is doomed. Before the surprise announcement Sony wasn’t even competing in this segment. Suddenly, this price will be their “swan song”… the “fat lady” warming up…
If you can’t afford it, shove it.
That’s FUD for ya. But even poor people are allowed to have an opinion. 🙂
they’d be able to afford these things if they were working instead of whining on online forums.
The problem is that they are not “competing” they have a far more expensive more limited product . The constant denial of Sony users is pretty pathetic , they jump from one thing to another with no great interets in long term users.
Totally agree!
The problem is that the ‘competition’ is not competing. They have the best product by far, and so can ask a premium. If the competition would step up, they’d have to lower prices or increase quality even more. Apparantly plenty of people are willing to stay at low-quality for a long time.
Noise in high ISO video is much less of a problem than in stills , for most uses the GH4 will do just as good apart from the cat in a coal cellar crowd shooting at 50000 ISO . It needs an external device to get any 4K output.Then we get to the lack of native mount lenses, sure if you have no interest in fast AF or compactness you can bolt anything onto an adapter
As for stills so far the admittedly few sample images do not look to be better than the current best FF options in any significant way, especially when they are processed down to 12mp . If it turns out to be bettwer when we get full RAW support a lot of the potential applications of very high ISO shooting.Simply do not measure, sports shooter ? nope , poor battery life, medicore build quality and no native AF long lenses etc! Astrophotography , nope to low in resoloution and so on.
Making a product that fits into a very limited niche is seldom the way to mass sales. As with the A7 and A7r , this is really another case of great sensor in a very average performing body. I have both the A7r and the D800 , I can see every penny that has been saved on the A7r, it still serves a purpose but it would never be my first choice.
Frankly, most of the time I see brainless bashing, while Sony users are the ones who make sense. Show me that far cheaper competing product, let’s see it. As to Sony being all over the place, it is true, but it is nothing more than the trade off for this specific brand. And each brand has plenty of trade offs – now, not seeing that is pathetic.
Bottom line – if you can’t afford it, you’re not the target market.
Not really, if it’s not worth it then that’s fine. I own a lot of kit, proper 4K Sony kit and would love to have this mainly as a stills, but a back up B or C cam. However i would go with an A7 for just stills at this price point. I don’t see the value in this cam beyond a certain cost – 8 bit Slog is problematic (from experience) and 8 bit 4K is not ideal either. If it was 10bit that would be different and if the 4K was 10 bit true as well – but 8 bit is seriously limited for professional products and this price point puts it there, not as a toy
The Sony Luxembourg store’s a7R price of 1899 euros is a discounted price. They are listing the normal price as 2099 euros. I will bet that the a7S’s price premium over the a7R is closer to 10% than 20%, putting the USD price closer to $2500 than to $2800. Anyway, this is exactly what we should have expected: Sony will undercut the Canon 5D Mark III, and not try to compete against the Panasonic GH4 on price.
Which actually makes sense.
I was ready to pay the same as the A7R but no more. If and when it reaches that point I might reconsider.
wait 2 months, you will definitely see lots of promotion packages if Sony really put that price tag.
given crappy free gifts lol… if reduce the price will affected A7r/A7 sales
Lets assume we shoot full hd here since in order to shoot 4K we need an extra $2000 recorder.
I cannot figure out why I want to buy this A7S instead of a bmpcc for close image quality (bmpcc may give even better image quality actually).
A7S = $2750 + $1000 (fast sharp prime lens) = $3750
bmpcc = $1000 + $600 (fast sharp prime lens) = $1600
What A7S can offer in extra? Auto exposure, Auto focus (I doubt it’s as good as Canon’s dual-axis AF which is the first usable video AF system on still camera), shallow DOF (This is arguable as I see little chance to use extreme shallow DOF that a bmpcc with F0.95 lens unable to offer for movie/video shoot), low light capability (This one also arguable since we need to compare the image quality below ISO 800 and but ISO 10,000 which is noisy and unusable for professional production).
note: I exclude comparison with GH4 here because its image quality is unable to match both A7S and bmpcc for my taste (mainly on film-look quality).
sorry, forgot to mention still photo on A7S. Yes, no doubt, bmpcc can’t shoot still, a disadvantage.
The BMPCC sucks. I have one and I can’t wait to get rid of it.
Haha!
Why you bought it at the first place? Because of its image quality? If so, until today, which camera below $2000 able to give you such image quality? Have you found any? 🙂
Under $2000, nope. But I’m gladly paying whatever Sony’s asking for the a7S, because it gives me what I want.
So you’re saying that he should not have bought the camera because it wasn’t good enough for him? And then you say that paying more for something that he can use is kind of stupid (you implied that anyway). OK then.
Precisely. Everyone seems to be keen on looking at a single aspect of the camera, 4K or 12MP. Those who will buy it will quite probably do so for the whole package. And there simply isn’t such a package from anyone else.
Regarding DR, which is one of the most important factor for good image quality.
From http://www.dxomark.com/:
D800, 13 stops only below ISO 300, 11.5 stops at ISO 800
A7R, 13 stops below ISO 150, 11.5 stops at ISO 800
A7, 13 stops below ISO 200. 11.5 stops at ISO 800
5D3, not even 12 stops on all ISO. 11 stops at ISO 800
Nikon 7100, 13 stops below ISO 200. 11 stops at ISO 800
Remind you that the above measurements are based on still, not video. Normally, on video that will decrease 1 stop. And bmpcc gives 13 stops at ISO 800, which is a sweet spot ISO for me since extreme fast, expensive heavy lens are not required for most use.
You forgot the D800e is much better in Low Light than the D800 (see dxo mark sensor rating!)….
You’re clueless if you put that much faith in to dxomark
your first assumption is wrong. i want 4k with full frame mirrorless mount so i can use my different lenses and i am willing to use external. a7s is the only option. fs700 and bmpc are even bulkier and not full frame.
In that case, it’s your choice of camera. 🙂
Sorry that I didn’t make myself clear. I was talking about users who are wiling to start a fresh new camera system.
I was responding to kai but yes… of coz id still be interested in an a7s with internal rec in a camcorder form. A vg1000. But if this comes itll be crippled im sure.
I’ve heard the bmcc has poor build quality and poor sensitivity. The Sony build quality is generally great (they have been building cameras far longer than black magic) and the sensitivity…well it seems to be great.
A7s has great build quality… that is funny. It has a stronger mount than a A7 and A7r and that is it. Other than that build quality is not great. The body is just a series of parts screwed together.
I’m not sure if you’re comments are being pedantic or not. I wrote that Sony build quality is generally great. I don’t have an a7s in my hands to judge it, do you?
I do know that my a99 is well made, not fragile and has operated well in snow and rain. My sony zeiss lenses are far better built than their canon equivalents. The Sony pro and prosumer video cameras I have used over the last 10 years never failed me. My assistant has used the black magic camera and reported that it was flimsy to him. Some reviews I have read stated similar things.
I used an a7r on a shoot. It felt well-built and not particularly fragile – screws and all.
I owe 2 bmpcc. The build quality is fine. It’s not for the faint hearted and is not designed to be. You need to work with the files to get the best out of it. But for just under $1K, you get the best IQ per dollar for any video cam in the market.
own – typo 🙂
Sounds good, I’d like to see some samples if you have any online.
You are seriously saying a four thirds sensor is giving better image quality than a fullframe!?
It does when comparing a E-M1 or GH-3 to a A7 or A7r. Video is not all about sensor size. Other things effect the quality as well and can wipe out the advantage of a larger sensor.
I own a BMPCC and really like it, but the screen is quite sub-par. There are no audio meters and no histogram, and battery life is almost laughable. It also has a small sensor and doesn’t take photos. The ability to shoot raw is amazing, but only if you’re up to dealing with the necessary processing. The A7s appears to have fewer weak areas, and it is two cameras in one (photo and video). Still, if you want a fun camera with great potential for $1000+, I recommend the BMPCC.
This a premium ff full read out with great clean iso.
If you guys didnt like that price, dont buy,..
Just dont make comparable kit, this is the world’s first full frame full read out sensor for video.
Wait for the real test and benchmarks score then we can says that it’s overpriced or not
Well! A7S is a sensitivity monster!
Its a video monster!
Its only one FF camera system on a market compatible with ALL optics ( beside micro 4/3 ) also Nikon AF & Canon AF & Minolta Dynax AF, Usable ISO 80.000 for sports in low Light if you need more pixles you buy a a7R!
Two cameras for 4300€ and you get an owerkill camera system!
Well who/s your daddy? 😀
No you don’t. Neither focus that fast. Neither are suitable for sports. Neither have uncompressed Raw. So far the iso looks no better than a D4s but a D4s can focus fast in daylight and low light and has a far larger buffer and more FPS. There is nothing to say it is a video monster yet either. It is not all about who has the latest sensor when it comes to video. The A7 and A7r are not as good as a E-M1 when using the same frame rates or a GH-3. Yet to see if the A7s is as good at video as a GH-4. Samples so far show lots of rolling shutter and do not look that great. Yes maybe it is good in low light video but that is a very niche market as movie markers light their sets correctly in the first place.
is GH-4 free of rolling shutter? 😉
A7S holds the promise of being an excellent still AND video camera in a highly portable form. It lets me use my 35mm lenses, RF as well as SLR, to their full potential. Hopefully RF wide angles will be better on the A7S than A7R, but even if not, and even if it has other faults relative to the GH4 and others, it’s still the only camera on the horizon that holds that promise. I’ve suffered through several crop sensors and I’ll never ever suffer another one for stills. If I have a nice Leica M lens, I’m always going to want to use it on a full frame sensor.
And also, even at around USD 2000, these cameras are still more or less affordable. And they are portable. So there’s no need for an “either/or” — how about GH4 for handheld, daytime videography, and A7S for nighttime videography and photography? I can dangle both cameras on my shoulders with RF lenses and they’ll still be lighter than a 5D + a couple of big zooms.
I don’t see the Built in View finder on the Sony RX 100 M3 Specs on the sony website
pop up
A7S = $2750? … Ha Ha Ha … funny….
Competition is: Nikon Df and Nikon D4/D4S.
Both are more expensive (D4/D4S extremely more), both have high ISO capability not in the class of the D4S.
…what exactly are you laughing at?
I am looking at the prices of the A7 body. Good to know that prices in the range of 1246 Euros do exist! 🙂 I hope it will come down by another 100 Euros or so before I can act. 🙂
The A7s, I think I will check the prices in 6 months. 🙂 Got to keep cash for the RX2. 🙂
I expected you to chime in 🙂 I think you shouldn’t be worried. You’ll have the camera you need by next year from several manufacturers. Photokina will tell us if I am talking OOMA.
Me, the only worry, is not enough time using cameras! 🙂
When are you going FF? 😉
Ha, you nailed that question. Hesitating about the a7r. Here in Japan the price is great, especially with the current rate. But the menus are in Japanese. Not a huge problem, my NEX-7 is the same and I am managing with my broken Japanese, but can be annoying on occasions. Also, just came back from a short trip and checked my shots from the NEX-7 and the thing delivers. In the end I will spring for an a7r simply to use cool lenses, like the SLIIs. Manual focus with the SELs is not to my liking. I also have high hopes for the upcoming Zeiss line, although I imagine the prices will be difficult to swallow.
It is not the price but the size that bothers me with the Zeiss lenses. Their APS-C lenses make a nice fit (size wise) on the A7/7R. They have a nice advert on their blog with pics.
If they can make them FF with the same size, then they are of interest.
One of these days, I hope, Zeiss will learn how to make small lenses- I hope Leica inspires them! 😉
Not going to happen while we’re still relying on auto focus and OSS. Those things take up lots of space. Manual focus with no OSS can be made pretty small though.
Yes, you are indeed right about the size. I just hope that because they will be manual, they might palatable. We’ll see.
As to Japanese prices, it is very weird. Some specific lenses are dirt cheap, others not so much. The 70-300G for example, brand new is around 400€. That’s less than half the price in Europe and cheaper even than buying from the US.
If you are in Japan check out the zeiss fe 55 and 35 at kakaku.
Bought them Last month for respectively 520€ &440€ in tokyo.
You can use them on the nex7 and be future proof for the 7s.
The 55 is amazing and the 35 deliver in very compact package
Wow! ~1/2 the prices!!
Yep that was a real bargain and there is also a tempting brand new G 70-200 for 870€ that I struggle to not buy for the sake of my bank account.
But Maybe next year….
Were they newly sealed? Can it be ordered from abroad? Or did you pick them up?
They are brand new. The prices here are cheaper and when you are buying with euros at the current rate it is ridiculous. I am not sure, but I do not think you can order from abroad. Best is to ask someone you know who lives or is traveling to Japan.
I don’t know anyone. Why is it cheaper in Japan than UK? Not fair
Yes sealed and no they don’t do international shipping. Only domestic shipping and yes I was in tokyo when I Bought them.
Can you go back and get them for me?
Absolutely, exactly what I was looking at. Also the 70-300G, which I can find for a bit more than 400€ new.
I’m in a similar situation to you it seems. I’m very happy with the quality of my NEX 7 but I’m tempted to upgrade as its starting to have problems. Like flickering evf and peeling grip. I’m waiting to try the A7S AF though as that will be what makes me upgrade.
Yep, same here, though I don’t have any problems with mine. But it does seem that the interesting stuff will happen in FF when it comes to Sony.
My hopes will survive until the 15th, come on Sony, bring your beloved users some great news.
Boring
the darkened image is of an Mk2. I suspect it is being used as a place marker
I have entered a contest and the grand prize is a trip to Australia.
Most of the wildlife there is nocturnal…if I win I would want a camera like this for the trip.
I would of course prefer it in A mount.
you only need to worry about the possums, bats and koalas if you can survive the worlds most venomous snakes and spiders who are awake during the day time
Don’t forget the funnel web spider who mostly is nocturnal, extremely poisonous and fangs that can go through leather 🙂
Don’t forget about the drop bears.
We’ll roll out the welcome mat…
I just go to the local zoo. 🙂
Generally, the euro dollar price is parity. When a camera costs 2000$ in the US, the price is 2000 euros in Europe. This is due to importation taxes, and since in the United Kingdom those are higher, the £ price is then also 2000£. I know that by experience since ever, and in Luxemburg you have a low VAT level, 17% on this object only. It can be that in Germany the price will be substantially higher, same in France or Belgium, the later has 21% VAT, but if you wait a 3 or 4 month, they will drop some 10 to 15% anyway. So, for those who are interested in this camera and can wait a few month, take time, we know Sony’s pricing game. I do no video anyway, and in still images the high ISO gain is only substantial, after the samples I have seen, noise starts to become visible at 6500, just like on other cameras, even if it is finer and less disturbing, but since the pixels are bigger, it will become disturbing quiet fast. In video where you do not look at the same image permanently, this is of no importance. Unfortunately, it has not Nikon’s cheating software inside. Maybe Nikon should do a reissue of it’s D700, a D700Mk2 with that 12.2 mpix chip, and with 4 k video please.
For 850$ they can keep it. Sony just announced yesterday a 1.29 billion $ loss. So, keep overpricing on the interesting things and throw out for nuts the others. If a a6000 can be sold for the same price with a zoom lens and apsc sensor, what is then so fantastic on the Rx100-3 to be sold at this horrific double price. On Sony Luxembourg site, there is no picture and no description of the camera. The picture on the site is an ultra dark shady picture of the Mk2. They do not even know themselves what it looks like and the date of delivery is given for July 8 only.
I totally agree. The MK3 has the same sensor, so no improvement in quality… Only a stupid will pay for the unnecessary EVF. I just keep my RX100 for a loong time and enjoy the 30mm extra focal reach over this overpriced gimmicky toy.
Unecessary EVF, that’s your words. One of the most read requests for the RX100 was to have a built-in EVF, so clearly plenty of people would disagree with you here.
Exactly! Also, it brings up the hope that the RX2 will have a built in EVF as well.:)
Only the stupid shoot exclusively with an LCD screen. EVF is a necessity, LCD screen useful for particular situations.
The prices on the year old rx100-2 will drop, if you can bare not having the newest. The rx100 has been going for only $400 lately. When people
Want a new toy the week it is released, expect to pay the highest price for it. Sony knows early adopters will pay the most.
It’s not the camera for you then. The RX100 and RX100Mk2 did not suddenly become non functional. They are still great cameras that have dropped in price, as expected. New products that are desirable and unique are always priced high on introduction. The technology for the new lens design and the built in EVF in a compact body will be compelling for some (and be worth it to some).
$850 is a *bargain* if you compare to what Nikon is charging for a 1″ sensor camera and pathetic f/3.5-5.6 zoom.
If you connect now, the site says Quote “Price unknown” !
The prices for the A7S and RX100M3 have now been removed from the Luxembourgish SonyCenter.
Sony Luxembourg removed the price tag ! Price unknown … Living in Luxembourg, I really like that the price leaked first in my small hood 😉
GH4 here i a go.
Panasonic does it better
Does what better, exactly? Shoot full frame stills? Shoot low light stills and video? Why don’t you just say that it’s not the lowest priced 4k DSLR? Both cameras have their own feature set that will appeal to different people.
It’s much better at attracting spotty teenagers for fans
here’s Panasonic GH4 review vs Canon 5DM3 & 70D mostly video features http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x23-tUcvoK8
Thanks for posting this. Very interesting. Don’t care for the “seeking” focus or moire . . . but all cameras have limitations. ( I’ll just have to forget about wearing my plaid shirt with this camera), maybe use my Voigtlander Nokton lens to prevent all that seeking . . . . I about got seasick. 😉
Lots of great info and comparisons here . . . I’m sold. Great Job, Tony!
The Moire on the GH4 is pretty awful.
True. Easy to notice.
With that shirt, for sure. Tony did say it was his Moire testing shirt. Probably because it brings out moire worse than other clothing.
My guess is that it won’t be a problem on most garments. I saw Dr. Phil last week and he was wearing a tie that drove his $200,000.00 camera crazy with moire’ so it happens with the best of equiptment.
Please, $2400 BO!
849 EURO is a great price if the RX100M3 is all that is predicted.
Don’t forget the RX10 is more expensive and that is considered by many (including myself) as a bargain for what is on offer !
I wonder about that EVF though … it is not mentioned ?
Pop-up EVF included!
Tomorrow’s the supposed announcement day, and still there are no leaks of RX100M3 press images? Can’t believe it!
Its kinda cool that the A7s enter virgin territory for Sony, so much that they had no clue on how to price it and awaited customer speculations to decide.
Why isn’t anyone talking about the resale value? The a7s is one of their top of the range models, like the a99 and the a900 before it… they have slower refresh cycles. The full read out makes the GH4 barely a contender for low noise video… a FF sensor that skips every other row and every other column can still match the noise levels of the GH4. In other words, the chances of GH4 going obsolete sooner and turning in to a paperweight are higher… longevity all about the end image, not if there’s a built in recorder, etc. GH4 users will also want better/external recorders than the built in one soon enough. There will also be smaller external recorders in the future.
As an owner of the GH4 I can say that your comments amount to nothing more than mouth dribble. The 4K files are incredibly good and completely noise-free. The AF is right up there with flagship DSLRs. Get the A7s if 50% or more of your photos are taken at high ISO, otherwise you’re just wasting money for a benefit you’ll never realize while missing out on tons of features that actually improve the user experience.
I highly doubt that it’s completely noise free. Even my A99 shows its noise at base ISO under certain condition. What other companies have given the users the choice to pick what they want. If you don’t see the point of a mirrorless FF, I don’t think the A7s would ever sway you away from the GH4. To me the A7s has much more benefits than just a mere high ISO capability compared to the GH4 (admittedly, most would be because it’s a FF).
A7S has better noise only for video because for full sensor readout. For stills, every camera had full readout anyway, so no improvement here.
How are you so sure? Have you at least used the A7S? 😀
Seeing how your reasoning is just “cos I said so” don’t think you understand how cameras work and what constitutes to noise. Also, no matter how low the noise in the GH4 is, a FF sensor will be approximately 2 stops better.
Also what a joke to say the AF is up there with DSLRs. Which DSLRs have you used and compared it to? 😀
I think he’s talking about high iso *video*. There’re many examples of poor macro-block noise at 1600+ iso in 4k video. “Any shot I did in low light was so noisy, even at just ISO 1600. Pitch black skies were atrocious, they were noisy and blocky.” (http://www.newsshooter.com/2014/05/07/would-you-recommend-the-panasonic-lumix-gh4-filmmaker-joe-simon-gives-us-the-low-down/)
“Any shot I did in low light was so noisy, even at just ISO 1600. Pitch black skies were atrocious, they were noisy and blocky.” (http://www.newsshooter.com/2014/05/07/would-you-recommend-the-panasonic-lumix-gh4-filmmaker-joe-simon-gives-us-the-low-down/)
15.5 stops of DR please.
what makes you think it will have more DR? more likely DR will be limited by ADC rather than pixel.
size of the light gathering pixel that sit on the sensor.
Sony has already said it will be “class leading”- whatever that means. A7/R and A99 sit at about 14.2 as it is. So, what’s another 1.5 stops? Those 12 pixels should be sucking up the light like a fat kid on a twinkie.
12 massive pixels and the A7/R and A99 already have around 14.2. I don’t think another 1 full stop or so is asking much. Not if they are advertising it as class leading. Anything less doesn’t mean it’s not worth it. Maybe for video but for stills no way.
A99 does NOT have 14.2 stops of range, in video mode at least. Try 12 at best. I’m thinking video because that’s what I do, and the A7s is tailored towards video shooters.
Raw stills.
I doubt in video it is even 12 on a A99.
even though it looks rather closely to the camera I need ,I ‘m not willing to put more than 2000€ in the a7s ,
So wait a few months for the price to drop.
They should also release 2 Mpx camera and sell 12000 Euro price for it.
With that, we can make pictures during new moon nights with the light from the stars! 🙂
I’d love to have that low-light capability, but the price is a deal-breaker. The GH4 with a $500 speed booster is still cheaper.
That sensor is a quarter frame sensor. Much much smaller. The DOF advantage and low light advantage is significantly better on the A7s.
DOF advantage? Serious?
Yes of course. Not everyone wants everything in focus. Shallow DOF is very much used in documentary videography and other genres too.
Yet the GH-4 is has a sensor size that is very close to that of Super 35mm cinema standard which pros have been using for years without a problem.
Thats like saying pros have been using film for decades so they shouldn’t use digital !
Technology moves forward. If you had said no one will use DSLRs for video 5 years ago, almost everyone would agree with you.
The GH4 sensor is really closer to Super 16mm.
With the Speedbooster the GH4 would act like a Super 35 sized sensor, which is 1.5x crop of a FF 35mm but you also get an extra stop of lighy. So, let’s say you have 35mm f/2.8 on a FF and to match the same FOV, you put a 24mm f/2.8 with the Speedbooster on the GH4. The 24mm f/2.8 would basically act like a 35mm f/2 and with the 1.5x crop, the DOF is f/3 and you could say that the difference of DOF between FF 35mm f/2.8 and the equivalent 35mm f/3 is very neglectable. I may be wrong, but I think that’s how the math works for the GH4+Speedbooster combo compared to a FF.
Regarding the low light capability, the A7s seems to have a great one, so it’s probably above the GH4 by some stops. But we also have to account how Sony take the data from the sensor and encodes it in video. The GH4’s video is said to have similar IQ as the JPEG but most cameras can’t do that and a lot of details and DR is lost when the video is output. So, it will also depend on how Sony manages to do that. If Sony does it right, the A7s will have some extra stops over the GH4 but if they don’t, the GH4+Speedbooster will be closer to the A7s than people imagine.
Well a Speedboster is all good but its got an additional optical element which not everyone will be happy with and can introduce additional problems for video professionals. No one I know uses one for video though in theory it should work fine.
Just as a teleconverter does, you are absolutely correct! In fact, it took the video guys quite a while to figure out their Variable ND filters also had a negative effect on image quality (and that was on their 2.1MP files). We stills guys already new this!
Well, but that’s a different matter, I’m countering the argument about DOF and speculating about the low light performance. So far, people that tested it says that the Speed Booster optical performance is very good, and I think that the same professional that would use a 5D or a A7s for video would use a GH4+Speedbooter, neither cameras are exclusively for video anyway. Plus, there are some things that the A7s doesn’t have that also would also bother “professionals”, in the end the trades are quite even, I would not say that in general people would say that one is simply better than the other, it will come to preference then.
And again, it will really depend on how Sony encodes the video because Panasonic is great at that and the pipeline they chose for the GH4 is very clever and as far as I know, no one else is doing like that. The way Panasonic chose, the data output by the HDMI 10-bit 4:2:2 is the data that comes from the sensor and not AFTER encoding like it happens most of the time – which explain why some HDMI out data looks as baked as the internal recording.
If Sony doesn’t do like Panasonic, the trade off for anything that the Speedbooster might bring is better than less IQ in video for poor pipelining and encoding. And to get the most out of the A7s you would need an external 4K recorder anyway, so for me although you might not know people that uses the Speedbooster I think that a person that would use one of these cameras, would also use the other depending on their needs.
At the time I contested the $1700~1800 price tag from rumors to be very unlikely, some were even putting it against the GH4 but the A7s doesn’t do 4K internally – most likely because of overheating issue due to this poor form factor. It seems that the low light performance of the GH4 is comparable to the 5DMKIII but I think that the A7s will end up being crowned the king of low light in video, at least in 1080p. I’m really curious about the RX100III video quality.
http://philipbloom.net/2014/05/12/gh4/
According to Phil Bloom (reference the GH4’s lowlight capacity):
“it absolutely CANNOT match the mk3. Who on earth is saying that. Even 800 and the image doesn’t seem to look as good. Thats in 4K and HD.
In the end, instead of relying solely on the opinion of just one person, just go look up for yourself then, from samples all over Vimeo it’s pretty close, I know there is a lot of compression but even so, even more the 4K/UHD converted to 4K/FHD. The GH4 may have more noise at times but it’s much closer than the GH3, you can’t really say that there is such a big difference as it was the case in the past. The main reason is that the video quality from the GH4 is almost the same as the JPEG of the camera, whereas in most cameras you lose lots of details and DR and details is something that 5D’s video does not possess in video.
You wrote:
>It seems that the low light performance of the GH4 is comparable to the 5DMKIII<
Sounds like you are quoting Andrew Reed? I was merely pointing out that there "are equally valid counter opinions." This isn't hard science it's extremely subjective and we should temper our statements accordingly!
First, I’m not quoting Andrew. I watched some videos from different sources – also with different methods – and the high ISO test looked comparable between the two cameras therefore I said it was comparable, there is no mystery there. And that’s why I said to you to watch it by yourlsef because there are several comparisons regarding this matter on the Internet, I find nothing really wrong with that. And when someone uses the word “comparable” this is hardly turning something into black and white, right or wrong, so I can’t see why would I need to temper any statement of mine.
Please post the links to the GH4/5D3 tests you are referring to.
This low-light statement just doesn’t jive with what the stills guys are saying about the RAW sensor performance from the GH4. The consensus is that there is only a very slight improvement in sensor performance (noise/dynamic range) over the GH3 and that camera wasn’t in the same ballpark.
Of course, if you are running tests with speed boosters, NR and exotic glass then results will be whatever you wish them to be!
No, for stills the difference is big, it’s ONLY comparable in VIDEO mode. As I said, the 5D loses a lot of details, DR and ISO performance in video mode – just like the majority of cameras – because of the downsampling, not so good encoding, etc. The GH4 uses a different process, it uses a full readout 1:1 pixel instead of line skipping, that’s why the IQ of the video from the GH4 is similar to the stills of the GH4, while the stills of the 5D is much better than its video. Most people think that the IQ they see in stills translate to video, it doesn’t and that’s why there is such difference.
I get what you are saying about the 1:1 pixel readout for 4K, but I’ve yet to hear an explanation of actually how Panasonic are getting down to 1080p? I asked the same question of Den Lennie about the SONY A7s, he’s yet to get back with me but did say he’d run it past SONY technical.
I see the same “effect” with the SONY RX10, it always has more actutance in its 1080p file but its file falls apart far faster at higher ISO’s than the A7R.
Post those links — you have my attention and curiosity piqued!
As for Panasonic, if the rolling shutter is similar between the 4K and 1080p, then the 1080p is a resized version of the full readout, if the difference is noticeable, I guess there is line skipping. Panasonic used a new and faster processor to avoid much rolling shutter, while Sony was not able to do so, at least from some tests I saw but the RX10 and the AX100 uses a 20MP sensor while the Panasonic is 16MP and the A7s is 12MP, theoretically less MP should weight less on the full readout and consequently, the rolling shutter.
But again, Panasonic has always been better in video but even if Sony doesn’t resolve it overall as great as Panasonic does, I think that the A7s will very likely be the new low light king for either stills and video, so it might surpass both D4s and Canon 5DMKIII, respectively.
As for the GH4 low light, the best performance is obteined when shot in 4K, edited and then output in 1080p. It seems that you get better result than the normal 1080p directly from the camera. The 4K file also holds better for either grading the denoising, which makes a lot of difference in the final render.
I didn’t do much of a research but I’ve been watching some videos of the GH4 that pops up on Vimeo – which also includes one from EOSHD.
https://vimeo.com/93500786
https://vimeo.com/94301673
https://vimeo.com/90981412
I suppose the Elephant in the room will be the SONY A7s, not from a 4K perspective, but from that of 1080p. If 1080p is procured from a full sensor readout (as it is in the RX10) then all bets are off, it may well prove to be the camera we’ve been waiting for.
There’s a good “on the couch” discussion over on Cinema 5D featuring Rodney Charters where he talks very eloquently about the merits (or lack there of) of 4K acquisition and what the industry actually require from a digital cinema camera! Hopefully SONY where paying attention when they designed the A7s. It’s worth 30 minutes of your time.
NAB 2014 – ON THE COUCH – ep 6 – Zacuto, Rodney Charters, ASC & Bruce Logan, ASC https://vimeo.com/91880010
Philip Bloom has an ongoing GH4 review, it will be interesting to see if he maintains his viewpoints on its lowlight capability or lack there of.
Yeah, I follow Bloom’s blog but I couldn’t read all the article, just half of it and I’ll finish it when I can. What I liked about 4K is not about the extra resolution, but about the extra data. So far GH4’s files can grade much better than people thought, despite the 8-bit 4:2:0, so I want to see what the 10-bit 4:2:2 files can do. The conversion to almost 10-bit 4:2:2 1080p from the 8-bit 4:2:0 is also interesting. Plus, there is the flexibility of cropping and even using pan through out the frame. These things are much more interesting than simply more pixels and interestingly, these are the things people are often overlooking in detriments of more pixels. I’ll watch the ON THE COUCH video.
It should be around $2000 USD for it to be affordable. Let is be a bedrock for future e-mount lens sales and new sony shooters and canon/Nikon ship jumpers
Really cant wait to see some reviews of the RX100M3 – Could be a killer pocket cam to have on me always with the new lens.
I do beatbox and I need a camera to catch my mad skillz in low light. I find the beats sounds best when I’m in the shower- so weatherproof as well. Now that I think about it, I get my jams down outside on bright sunny days. I hope the DR is as wide as my vocal range. Break it down homies!
RX100M3 – Pre-Sell Estimated Ship Date: 06-17-2014
http://store.sony.ca/gsi/webstore/WFS/SNYNA-SNYCA-Site/en_CA/-/CAD/ViewProduct-Start?SKU=31-DSCRX100M3
So we have to pay more for fewer MP now? Not long time ago there was a Nikon D3x that was ridiculously priced for its whooping 24mp output. That’s reversed now. 24mp = cheapest, 12mp = priciest.