Resourcemagonline posted the content of an interesting chat with Sony US manager Mark Weir:
1) Why the A7rII has tilt and not a flip out screen:
they made a conscious choice to make their rear LCD a tilt screen rather than a full flip-out screen. They believed that the compactness of the camera trumped the space it would take to add a hinge and provide a full flip-out screen.2) Why the A7rII doesn’t record 10bit video:
The inability to shoot 10-bit is because of the processor. The BIONZ X processor in the Alpha series cameras can’t actually process anything past 8-bit 422.3) Why the A7rII cannot do RX100m4 alike frame rates at 1080p:
The sensor Sony is using in the cameras that have HFR, the RX’s EXMOR RS sensor, is a stacked CMOS sensor. Such a sensor uses a different means by which the info is taken off the photo sensitive layer of the imager: the destination is behind the imager instead of going around it. The upside is that it is a transfer that is drastically faster than other means, and it opens a drastically larger pipe for information. Transfer rates are up to 5x better than before.
The EXMOR R sensor found in the a7r Mark II does not enjoy that structure, so cropping in on the sensor would not realize the transfer rate necessary nor does the a7R II have the D-RAM required for it to process that amount of data. So the problem is two fold: the data can’t flow off the sensor fast enough, and there is no place to put that data even if it could.4) Difference between Exmor RS (Stacked) and Exmor R sensors:
The capabilities of the EXMOR RS sensor are meant to be fast readout, and that’s where it excels. The EXMOR R sensor excels at balance between sensitivity and high resolution.5) So why can the GH4 handle slow motion, internal 4K and 10-bit 422 recording with an external recorder?
Well, the GH4 is bigger (if you can believe it, yes it totally is bigger than the Alpha series cameras) and therefore their issues with thermal management (which, if you read around you’ll find is a common complaint even with the newer, beefier bodies found in the a7 and a7R II) are not nearly as extreme. Also, Sony has added that internal sensor stabilizer, meaning they’ve got even less room to use in that tiny body than you might think. And then of course you look at Panasonic’s processor, which however it works, manages to do the things the Sony one cannot, given the size of the sensor and the heat situation with the body.
And here is a very long list of A7rII news and tests:
Model Shoot with Sony A7RII at Traveljournalist.
German A7rIi review at mactechnews.
A7rII review at Thisweekinphoto.
Sony Alpha A7R Mark II Sample Photos (ePhotozine).
A7RII battery drain in Power Save Mode (SonyAlphaForum)
A7s / A7R II off-camera HSS Elinchrom flash confuuuuusion …. (SonyAlphaForum).
A7rII clunks when I switch the camera off !!?? (SonyAlphaForum).
Confessions of a Canon Fanboy – A Review of the Sony A7RII (Robert Turchick).
A7R (ICLE-7R) or the A7RII (ICLE-7RM2) – Initial Impressions by Richard Fox.
Anoynmous: “Great A7rii video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYGM5u35Gcw”
A7rII preorder list:
In USA: at Amazon, BHphoto, Adorama, SonyStore US, FocusCamera, Uniquephoto.
In Europe at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT. Wex UK.
In Asia at Digitalrev, CameraPro.
A7rII case:
Gariz leather case in [shoplink 39113 ebay]Black (Click here)[/shoplink], [shoplink 39108 ebay]Camel (Click here)[/shoplink], [shoplink 39110 ebay]Orange (Click here)[/shoplink], [shoplink 39111 ebay]Brown (Click here)[/shoplink] and [shoplink 39112 ebay]Red (Click here)[/shoplink]. Also available on Amazon US (Click here).
Gariz Alcantara case in [shoplink 39094 ebay]Black (Click here)[/shoplink] and [shoplink 39095 ebay]Red (Click here)[/shoplink]. Also available on Amazon US (Click here).
Lim’s case in [shoplink 39107 ebay]Black (Click here)[/shoplink], [shoplink 39102 ebay]Brown (Click here)[/shoplink], [shoplink 39103 ebay]Red (Click here)[/shoplink], [shoplink 39104 ebay]Yellow (Click here)[/shoplink], [shoplink 39105 ebay]Navy Blue (Click here)[/shoplink] and [shoplink 39106 ebay]Khaki (Click here)[/shoplink]. Also available on Amazon US (Click here).
123 Responses
That was some honest answers, admitting the BionZ X could use some upgrades, and then later upgrading it should be a good thing for Sony.
This clarifies a few things to me. All the Pre-launch hype, and all the hype during launch had led me to believe the A7Rii had a D-RAM chip on the sensor. But apparently it doesn’t!?
I must have misunderstood so much about this camera then if most of the launch images were only meant to illustrates upgrades for the RX100iv.
Oh well, it’s actually makes it more impressive that Sony is able to maintain 5FPS for a 42Mp sensor without the D-RAM on the sensor.
It’s no wonder no one could answer when I asked how large the on-sensor D-RAM chip was on the A7Rii. The answer is 0 MB.
But I’m still curious about how large the D-RAM chip in the RX100iv is though.
I would thinknif you were good with math you could figure out the minimum ot would take to do the frame rates at those file sizes that it will do.
The RX100Miii has a screen that can flip up and it is pretty compact, seems like a cop out. It is more likely that they wanted to clear out their remaining inventory of these old tilt screens, next mark will get updated tilts once their old inventory is cleared out.
The Flipout screen would not be visible on the front, since the EVF will cover half of the screen, I think he was referring to the A77 styled hinge.
Yes, because hinges are so expensive to make. Totally plausible scenario.
Unlikely. An RX100MIII screen wouldn’t work on the A7RII because it has an EVF sticking out above it. So you need a side mounted swiveling LCD, which are indeed bigger than the flat and collapsible construction it has now. But I would gladly take a couple of mm’s extra to have a front and side facing LCD.
Clearing out inventory with a $3200 /£2600 camera? Really?
Hope that the stacked sensor was the reason for the A7000 delay. It seems a huge difference in performance with that, it will improve a lot the Hybrid AF.
I call BS… a fully articulating screen would still fall underneath the EVF protrusion.
Is there really anyone out there who says…
“Dang, if only this thing didn’t have a fully articulating flip screen, then I could fit into this pocket”
Their excuse for compactness is hampering my vertical shooting experience, which is why I still rely on a99/77 for low angle shooting in classic waste level viewing of medium format cams. Also handy for high angle verticals.
All EMount cams cripple vertical togs with less articulation and less vertical controls… Compared to AMount.
I can’t believe for one minute that the reason for the ‘flip rather than swivel’ screen was compactness. The difference, relative to other changes, would have been minimal, so it has to be down to manufacturing cost.
Otherwise the negatives for not having the swivel screen far outweigh the benefits of compactness and would have to be seen as a poor design decision.
Of course, if using just the flip screen simplified the manufacturing and saved them a good deal of money I could understand the reasoning, although Sony will certainly never admit to that!
i tried the a7R II. with temps around 33 celsius here it is pretty much unusable as 4k video camera. it overheats, shuts down.
4k on this camera = gimmick for the featurelist.
You should add the time until it shut down so that we can compare it to the hints given in the operating manual.
On these cameras- I prefer the tilt screen. It’s faster to level out for high and low shots instead of having to flip out first. The only downsides are being able to use it for selfies (don’t lie- you all do it) and potentially scratching it if you’re to cheap to buy a protector.
Ofcouse, A mounts screen implementation is number one. Best of both worlds- done, mail it in.
I’ve never bought screen protectors for my cams, and all the screens are just fine. As long as you’re not throwing around the camera willy-nilly, I find it a pointless expense. That said, one thing I like about my A77/A99 is that I can have the screen flipped closed, which is how I leave it most of the time, except for the times I have to flip it out for low-to-the-ground or over-my-head shots.
“is that I can have the screen flipped closed”
Agreed.
They do scratch, if you’ve owned a NEX-7 before then you know what happens to the anti-glare coating if you leave it out in the open for too long.
Exactly!! Fiddle around with that joint and you just lose your shot.
For selfies maybe phone tethering? I don’t know if a7RII could do it or it’s just a6000 and other consumer models.
they all do via playmemories
Then one less reason for that swivel screen. Why not do a 4-way tilt I wonder, simply double the current 2-way tilt mechanism by adding a layer beneath that flips sideways, it seems the best compromise between size and usability, since traditional swivel screens also hamper usability because of their clumsiness to operate, and take up more room.
Understandable. The A7rII is anyway a compelling camera for internal 4K even if the GH4 can do 10bit. If you go to vimeo and see AX100 vs GH4 4K, you will see that even with 10bit, the sensor on the GH4 suffers from shadow noise (therefore lower usable dynamic range) and somehow it appears to contain less detail than the really rich 4K files from the AX100. What this says is that 10bit or whatever else is still dependent on the hardware that is producing your images and the codec you use.
So, video can be as good as it can with the A7rII because it will work up until the hardware limits allow. But, why can’t stills suck more from the hardware by allowing lossless raw files? There is no hardware limit for that.
The hardware limit is that same slow processor and sd card write speed. Lossless RAW (even if still compressed like Canikon) will be bigger files and that will likely choke the anemic processor even more.
Slow, anemic?
I doubt that. The BionZ X hardware is plenty fast for what it’s designed to do. Besides, they’ve told us they are still looking into it.
M43 loads at least 4x less data.
But some of us can live with a slower write speed because we don’t shoot fast FPS so we’re good, right? I mean, there is no real limit for not having the option. Is not as if the offering of lossless raw has to come at the price of the other formats already offered.
A7III please:
a77 styled hinge and screen
Dual card slots
Fast AF- fast fast
A mount battery
That might be better on the A9.
I still preffer and would like them to go back on the original A7 design.
And make a modular camera, with something like a USB 3.1 type-C on the botton they could make a grip that adds bigger battery and a second memory slot.
Well, Pana might had some issues with heating too, that’s why they turn IBIS off when recording any kind of video.
Not to mention that they have that nasty crop-in in multiple cameras.
‘they cant do these things because next year models can”
So the takeaway…
Compact EMount design philosophy is a hinderance to more professional expectations.
Simple math.
My guess is that a high end a3000 style body is in the pipeline, intended to provide a replacement for all a mount cameras. Flip out screen, large body, high frame rate etc. a77 becomes an a78 e mount and a99 becomes a9. Can anyone explain why this shouldn’t happen? If there was an a77 but e mount, and included the adapter, why would that not succeed?
I just wonder if the a3000 didn’t sell well enough for them to try it…
I’d hope that any DSLR-sized high-end E-mount would be a bit more attractive as an overall package than the A3000, then it will sell. There really weren’t any redeeming features on the A3000, apart from its stupidly low price.
They even updated it, maybe it did okay.
the adapter bit is the weak point, there not good enough, can cause issues and not that great in the hand vs native a mount..
The Bionz X in FS7 can do 10-bit and a number of other things including higher framerates and 4k 60p, so its within the realm. Something like the A99 could easily handle the heat dissipation aspect. The real answer from Weir should be, “we aren’t doing 10-bit in any small camera because it would eat into the sales of the $8000 FS7.”
As far as the screen, the current screen is a sunk cost as its been used for awhile now. Its much cheaper to continue to use that design than engineer something new.
Are you absolutely certain this is the doing of the Bionz X chip?
For all I know, the whole slew of different Codec options in the FS7 could be caused by additional dedicated hardware. The FS7 certainly have plenty of space for these.
I don’t know if there are multiple flavors of Bionz X or if the FS7 has 3 of them or what, but the codec is just a container.
You don’t know what you’re talking about then.
This type of hardware doesn’t use a general purpose CPU you have inside your PC.
They use hardware that are specifically designed to encode particular types of videos. These microchips are physically constructed for these particular tasks so they remain fast enough to provide your SD card with Real Time encoded AVC streams at 100 Mbit/s.
If you tried to do this with your 100 watt Intel CPU, you would most likely fail, because your CPU is an unoptimised general purpose processor, not specific hardware optimised for specific task.
I never said anything about three processors in the A7rII. All of your “I’m smarter than you” babble is irrelevant rambling, they aren’t doing 10-bit in any small camera to protect the FS7.
Carry on.
It is not unreasonable to believe that the a7rII package cannot house the necessary hardware with proper cooling to all for 10-bit recording independent of protection for the FS7. It barely manages 5 min of 4K.
Now I wonder if it is possible with an a99-size body, which is still much closer in size to an a7 than an FS7. The a7sII should show us the limits of what can be done in the smaller body size in this regard.
My A7r easily gets 40 minutes of continuous 4k in s35 mode and well over an hour in FF before overheat warnings kick in – and I live in Florida so its hot here. If I swap batteries after hitting the rec time limit – because they get really hot – I can get more. Not sure where you’re getting 5 minutes from, but I’m guessing its not from actually using the camera.
No, I have not yet used the just released a7rII. I am a working photographer not a tech reviewer.
I have gathered from commenters on here that overheating shutdown is an issue, but I confused the rx100-4 internal recording spec with this a7r2. I am glad to hear that you have had success with much longer Internal takes in a hot climate.
One quest, how does a user get 40+ minutes of continuous internal 4k when (according to Sony) there is a 29 minute recording limit?
Source: http://www.sony.net/Products/di/en-us/products/dkw5/specifications.html?contentsTop=1
Simple, when you hit the limit you hit the record button again.
Your definition of continuous is less than accurate.
Fine continuous minus 2 seconds.
Er no, it either is or is not continuous. When you have a client sign a contract for a continuous recording of a 2.5 hour presentation, they will not react well when they discover there are five 10 seconds gaps of presentation missing every half hour.
Well then I guess this isn’t the camera for that job. Duh.
Correct – a real video camera would be required for continuous shooting, glad you see my point.
Also one should never trust anonymous internet commenters for their anecdotal specs, which are usually falsified to support their egoistic points of contention. That’s why I always test before using a new camera for paid work.
A remote battery solution would no-doubt help, the RX10ll batteries get very warm too when shooting 4K. Good idea!
You clearly did say that you “didn’t care if the FS7 was powered by three BionZ X processors”. You dismiss this as irrelevant, but it clearly isn’t. If the feature requires those 3 chips and the A7Rii body doesn’t have room for 3 such chips in the first place, then it obviously can’t have that feature before those chips are shrunk sufficiently enough.
You implied those features Should be within the realm of possible, yet you ignore all arguments about physical space and costs. That’s simply not how it works.
For something to be in the realm of the possible, there has to be enough physical space for said something. For something to be in the realm of possible, the cost of said something has to covered in the price the consumer pays. These are not irrelevant.
Jesus, its called an exaggeration. Get a life.
Wouldn’t it be easier to admit that certain things are not possible with the current technology they have, in the current physical restrictions they have?
Exaggerations that are incorrect or even false won’t help anyone.
Does the FS7 have a fan & heatsink?
I wonder if going the next step, to a stacked sensor, would cool the unit more? The stacked sensor could operate at a cooler temperature because of faster throughput, and also offer a much higher framerate for stills.
Up the architecture. The processor and CMOS actually use pretty primative architecture if you compare them to computer CPUs, shrink the electronics and lower the power consumption.
Sony already use the most advanced CMOS manufacturing technology there is. They are the market leader in this niche.
It’s generally a bad idea to compare a manufacturing process specialised for CMOS to a manufacturing process specialised for CPU logic.
It’s more than Apples and Elephants at that point.
Haha, at least it works for bionz x.
You would be correct about that. The BionZ X chip could use some upgrades as well as some die shrinks. Although I have no idea how it is produced currently.
Off the top of my head it’s on a 60nm process, only 33% sure about that;)
Maybe the fastest they extract the data, the least time to heat.
What was not asked
Why only 5 fps burst rate
Why no lossless raw compression
If you had your way on the lossless raw it’d be 3 fps. Physics + Economics…….
You would not trust his response anyway, would you?
“Why only 5 fps burst rate” – it’s a friggin’ 42MP full-frame sensor, that’s why.
lol exactly my thought. Asking for higher than 5fps is kind of unfair. This camera already offers so much.
Tilt screen is the reason why i didn’t buy the A7. ill buy it when it gets a flip out screen.
OK OK… not very nice interview for customers maybe, but honest answers and thats more than anything. BUT what about problems with real RAW?
Straight up answers. He’ll probably get busted by Sony PR.
if they bulked out the camera with fancy screen it goes the make it as small as possible ethos, and the bigger battery would increase size and weight, so yeah…
ofcourse if they bothered to make a99ii then that would be a good solution
On Question #1. Thank goodness they made a conscious decision to provide a tilt instead of a flip-out! If I want a selfie, I’ll use my F*****g cell phone!!! I use the tilt all the time, absolutely love it. As remarkable as this camera is, if they would have done without the tilt, I would have passed on this and gone with the A7ll. Good choice Sony, TY !!!
Flip screens aren’t just for selfies (I never even thought about it in those terms). I do a lot of low-angle landscape work, and having a flip screen would be extremely helpful in composing portrait-oriented compositions. I’d have happily accepted a slightly bulkier camera as a trade-off for that useful feature.
Agree…
1) flip-out is not for selfies… hahahha… It is comfort all the way (have you ever usea a camara with a flip-out?)
2) i happily accepted a slightly bulkier camera as a trade-off for that useful feature (especially flip-out screen)
You know the A7 has the NFC phone function right? rather than bitching about the screen being flip type – im not even in the same room while shooting with the A7
The solution they used for their SLT cameras (A65/A77/A99) is compact enough and is more versatile be it photo or video, and lends itself better for portrait/vertical shooting. Considering they developed a vertical grip for the A7 line of cameras it would make sense for them to further develop a screen capable of working that way.
Furthermore something I rarely see/hear about is the awful quality/protection of Sony LCD Screens (maybe all other Brands are the same), but a full tilt/swivel system as on A65/A77/A99 cameras has the advantage of being on axis relative to lens and can be shut close against the body for protection – which having a Nex 7 and having owned many other Sony cameras I know is necessary because of how easily they scratch..and no I don’t think one should be buying screen protectors and similar for something which is a design flaw.
I never understand the logic of criticisms like this and some of those below. The beautiful thing about an optional feature is… if you don’t like it you don’t have the use it. And if you don’t like it, your preference means absolutely nothing to those of us who use that same feature all the time. More often than not, I use the flip screen on my a99, especially for angles that would be too difficult to get at otherwise, and would use the flip all the time if the AF was any good–it’s especially for when the best shot means backing the camera up against a wall or a risky border.
And yes, full disclosure: I’ve even on occasion taken a picture of myself with it–though God knows no serious artist has ever done a self-portrait.
It’s not just a matter of “if you don’t like it, don’t use it” As stated by Sony it’s presence would have added some bulk to the camera. So those who don’t need it and are seeking a more compact alternative to bigger DSLR bodies would have been disadvantaged by the addition of a flip screen..
It’s not just a matter of “iydli, dui” but it is mostly a matter of that when other Sony flip cams have gained very little mass at all.
The a99 articulating screen is incredibly useful in many situations, it wasn’t designed for selfies.
Doesn’t the A7II have the flip screen, and isn’t the body the same size on the A7RII?
no.
How can the screen flip with the viewfinder?
By having the hinge closer to the viewfinder so it can “fllip” past it like that they did for the A99.
It has a flip screen, he meant the swivel type that flips out then twists 360 degrees on a joint.
“they made a conscious choice to make their rear LCD a tilt screen rather than a full flip-out screen. They believed that the compactness of the camera trumped the space it would take to add a hinge and provide a full flip-out screen.”
Ouch. What a cop out. Could have just put in the tilt+flip out screen from the a-mount a77 and a99 on the a7rII. Wouldn’t have made it any larger.
a7II with a99 screen & hinge would make the body larger.
Work at Home Special Report………After earning an average of 19952 Dollars monthly,I’m finally getting 98 Dollars an hour,just working 4-5 hours daily online….It’s time to take some action and you can join it too.It is simple,dedicated and easy way to get rich.Three weeks from now you will wishyou have started today – I promise!….HERE I STARTED-TAKE A LOOK AT….fu..
➤➤➤➤ http://getsuperemtoplevelworkzone/finance/team/…. ⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛⚛
10BIT video recording is very important, probably as important as 14bit RAW..i hope they at least implement 10bit 1080p video
You can get very close to 10 bit when downscaling 8 bit UHD footage to 1080p in a software that is able to handle it with at least 10 bit depth.
Bit depth is not related to 4k, either you have that much colour or not. But I understand 10bit in gh4 is not that good, Linus (YouTube) made a video comparing 10b on gh4 and a proper professional cam (lots of difference)-so maybe you are talking about 10b in cams like gh4. What I am saying is 1080p 10bit is more important than 4k 8bit as if you are not watching from really close you won’t see the difference. The companies wants us customers to concentrate on resolution rather than colour depth or rec. 2020
Actually up to 4k the difference is quite sizeable, just grab 2 monitors, 23″ or larger each, one 1080p, one 4K. You’ll see the difference in a second.
if you look @ it at a close range..you dont watch tv @ this distance do you?
take a look at this chart
I don’t watch TV.
And I use my monitor about 3 feet away from my eyes. Give or take half feet.
4K vs 1080p is night and day.
4k isn’t useless for my TV, at least, that’s for damn sure.
Yeah, it’s pretty useful if you watch the TV from 3-4 feet apart on a 55inch TV (rest is all placebo). On a 55inch TV after 6-7 feet you won’t see the difference between 1080p and 4k
Why no lossless 14bit raw !
Sony do it !!!!!
He just said why in the article.
Sorry, but no. Lossless != uncompressed.
No it doesn’t, see our D810, look at the file sizes, look at the data being transferred between buffer and card if you’re still confused.
Lossless does not necessary equal uncompressed. Most people use lossless as shorthand for losslessly compressed and would prefer that for size & expediency.
I find flip out screens are harder to hold and properly stabilize. The A99/A77 system is a better compromise but still with its limitations. I’m happy with the tilt only screen.
Maybe they could try the Sony R1 screen style at some point, the only issue is that it was small, but it was a really functional.
Say it’s simply a matter of preference, flip or swivel, then yes, at least it’s for a fact that the flip mechanism could remain relatively compact while maintaining rigidity, the swivel joint would make the left bezel very thick, and look like some primative DSLR design.
They could implemente similar tilt/swivel system they have on A65/A77/A99.
That? I just had a look on sony.jp, and it looks like it could double the screen thickness too.
This is very good news. Sony is saying most of the limitations are because of the speed of the chips. And chip speed is increasing rapidly. This implies some solutions by next year.
I am somewhat new to photography, maybe 12 years. Started with a 30d and
some L Glass (28-105). Purchased 2 Nex 7s, several years back.
Currently, happy owner of the A7Rll. Never, never have I had the thought
or need to stand in front of my camera to take my shot, never the need
to “flip” my screen. I have shot over 80000 clicks in that time, most
all of those outdoors. I found the “tilt” options allowed me to expand
on my creativity and perspective. The “flip”, honestly, I see it only as
a gimmick.
It’s not a question of need but of better. If you’re using the tilt screen in landscape orientation, simple logic (and real-life practicality) allows you to see the utility of a screen that can articulate in the 90° axis when the camera is oriented in portrait mode.
Sony’s been using the Bionz X for 2 years now.
Maybe it’s time to upgrade the processor?
Next gen Bionz will perhaps come in the fall with the release of the a99II & a7sII…(wishful thinking all around)…
or double up and put 2 of those in the camera likes how CaNikon’s been doing with their flagships
Does the D810 support 10 bit AVC video? I don’t think it does.
This is not how Hardware Encoders work. You cannot double up on them and expect them to encode things they were never designed for. Hardware encoders are very optimised processors, they are not general purpose processors.
For me it just shows that the a7 series, while magnificent cameras, should not have become Sony’s flagships. The bodies are just too small to do all the incredible things of which their innards are capable.
They are obviously holding the A9 name for the future, when they make a body in the same segment as 1D/D4.
Economics: there is no (gluten-) free lunch.
(That was deep.)
Even if it becomes available in single shot mode only the option would be worthwhile for situations that benefit from it.
I really don’t mind a slightly larger camera. Flip screen and 10 bit actually would have sold it for me.
“3) Why the A7rII cannot do RX100m4 alike frame rates at 1080p:” real answer: cause it will be in the in the a7sII and a7rIII
just tell me when we can get an external AF lamp on the flash working.
Make an A8 or 9, the size of GH4 then…
No linearly you need it to be even bigger. Larger sensor, more data, bigger electronics remember?
I want it bigger so these features won’t be crippled but we’ll take it in steps *wink*wink*
what other cameras have a flipout screen other than the a99? A77?