According to MirrorlessRumors Leica will launch the very first Sony RX1 competitor on June 11. It looks like a more compact [shoplink 37044 ebay]Leica Monochrome[/shoplink]. Has an 28mm Summilux f/1.7 lens, built-in EVF and image stabilization.
Of course the Leica will be very expensive compared to the RX1. Sony certainly has nothing to “fear” from Leica. I guess what is killing the RX1 sales is their own A7 series that offers much more versatility in a not too much bigger package. The RX2 if it ever comes has to bring some clear technological highlight like the curved sensor we saw on so many patents.
116 Responses
Surprised they chose 28 instead of their 35mm bread and butter
Yes, also surprised by that. Unless it will be APS-C camera.
Same here, maybe it’s not a FullFrame Sensor. Could be an APS-H like the one Canon used on some 1D Cameras. With Cropfactor of 1,3 it would be an 36,4 mm.
Or like their own M8.
I think its to leverage the development of the Leica T camera, its going to recycle many of the T’s internals and it will be APS-c.
it was about time, cuz the two owners of RX1 are bored and need something more expensive to compensate 🙂
I don’t think so, FF would be something special but if it’s part of the old X line just another focal length then there’s not much meaning to it. It’d be more like the competitor of say Fuji’s x100 line.
…and still no word on the a7RII
Yes, I want rumors…NOW!!! 🙂
Hmm .. let me guess the price
if A6000 body = $650 , Leica T body = $1850
and RX1 = $2800 Then Leica RX1 competitor will be approx. = $ 7970
all prices are straight after release dates
Not a bad calculation. I would place RX1 competitor at $6,500, though.
My guess is that even then, the 28mm 1.7 may not be as hot as the Sonnar. Why? Because of the same rule of the Leica lens for the LX100 (heavy software compensation) and the 23mm for the Leica T that can’t keep the same aperture at some distances and which is not any hotter than the Zeiss E 24mm 1.8 or even the Fuji 23mm 1.4.
Even if your final image quality of the new Leica RX was comparable to the RX1, the RX1 would still be the best bang for buck per gram in that category, including the EVF.
Well, the LX100 is an $800 panny 4/3s camera. I don’t think we can hold that against Leica as the pinnacle of their lens making abilities any more than we can say that the not so great 24-70 f/4 FE means that Zeiss couldn’t produce the RX1’s sonnar.
I don’t know what’s going on with the Leica Ts, but I’m sure that Leica is capable of making an incredibly good 28mm f/1.7, if the 28mm f/2 summicron is any indication.
The Sonnar is tough to beat, and at some point it becomes pretty subjective, but I have little doubt that Leica can match it at the very least… say what you will about Leica but they make very very good glass for their high end products.
You are certainly right as to their capabilities, but the ‘indication’ you are talking about costs 1000$ more than the RX1r and that is just the lens.
A Leica site, lavidaleica, has been putting up some info about this camera over the last few weeks, and they gave a price of $4500 US. (Also they said that it will be called the Q, which I wonder about since Pentax already has a Q.)
Admin any updates on the a6xxx release announcement please?
All I want is nothing more, than the A7R Mark II
I hear the new Leica is made out of wood. And an accessory line including key ring, bomber jacket, and coffee mug. The coffee mug will retail at the same price as the soon to be released RX2…
I hope it comes in safari green with a Land Rover as a throw in.
And after a year, a special edition from Mr Kravitz and his crew of sandpaper gnomes. At a hefty premium of course.
Who said the RX1 sales are being killed by A7 series?
Because you can put more lenses on A7 series, it doesn’t mean RX1’s features become “less”.
RX1 is virtually silent.
RX1 has the better 35mm of any 35mm you can think of except maybe the Sigma 35mm.
RX1 is smallest without EVF and not particularly larger with it.
If anything, there should be more RX1s in the same vein Sigma made the DP series.
> Who said the RX1 sales are being killed by A7 series?
Because it’s the truth
Is this something we know or just an asumption? Any links to actual sales numbers, before and after A7 series?
It’s an assumption – based on good judgement.
But really – it’s an absolute no-brainer that the majority of people considering buying either RX1 or A7 series, but not both. If you want you can invest some time to research the sales-numbers.
I don’t see how what you wrote can be considered “good judgment”.
the 35mm f1.4 FE is easily better.
“Who said the RX1 sales are being killed by A7 series?”
Admin 🙂
a7R ii rumors???????
but … with 14bit uncompressed dng file !?
It’s a good thing Leica has positioned themselves as a niche product because with potentially 4 new cameras rolling out this month )A6xxx, RX2, RX100-4 and the A7RMKII), the new Leica fixed lens is going to get lost in a sea of Sony…
Nice, but i’m only interested in the new SONY A7r Mark ii 😉 Any News???
But will Leica include a free copy of Lightroom like the do with other models that are direct twins of Panasonic? (Sarcastically stated as buyers at that level already own Lightroom).
Pulling back the Leica badge will probably reveal a Panasonic badge in any case.
So my advice would be to peel the leica badge off, make do with the Panasonic badge (it doesn’t affect the optics) and claim your free copy of Lightroom…. bargain.
Leica X-series compacts have no Panasonic twins like the D- and V-series. They are just like the M- and T-cameras mostly made in Portugal with final assembly and control in Germany.
aren’t their kit zooms made by Panasonic?
If you think of the lenses for Leica T they are made in Japan. Some sources say they are not made by Panasonic.
We don’t really know as Leica like Zeiss don’t reveal who in Japan actually make their lenses, except the Zeiss lenses sans Otus for SLRs and Leica M we know are made by Cosina.
Speculation have been about Sigma for Leica and Tamron for Zeiss Batis. But it could be reversed or somebody else.
The lenses for the X-cameras could also be made in Japan. But then they are just a part of the camera like other parts supplied by external producers.
Assembly still takes place in Portugal and Germany
i do not understand. Why 28mm?
i prefer 50mm (the so called normal lens)
all my friends prefer 50mm.
but the photoindustrie tries it with 35mm or 28mm.
Leica x2, fujifilm x100, ricoh gr, Nikon a, sony rx1
why again 28mm?
and remember, such a camera has also to fight against smart phonecameras.
same wide angel.
give me a 50mm compact fullframe plz!
or a rangefinderstyeld sony fe.
sorry for my bad english!
maybe Micro 4/3 like the LX100
I think Sony RX1/R caused Leica quite a bit of pain. RX series are also premium products with similar functionality, even if lenses are fixed, they are incomparably better value for money.
So I think Leica will try to be competitive with their version, otherwise there’s no point making it, I would guess something in the range of 3999 or so.
pretty much anything non-leica is better value for money.
Agreed.
I was a Leica M shooter back in film days. I abandoned it just because the digital M’s are too less value for money. The combination of high precicion mechanics and tank-like build quality with rapidly aging digital technology (you can’t change the sensor, like film) makes it indeed low value for huge sums money. The same is true for Nikon D4 or Canon EOS 1DX by the way.
But i would not agree with the lenses. You can use Leica lenses almost a lifetime, both, in terms of IQ and build quality. Nothing is as compact and high quality as Leica lenses. To me, the lenses are better value for money than Nikon/Canon/Zeiss/Sony stuff.
It is waaaay to late to compete with the RX1 in my book. The RX1 was revolutionary when it came out. Now it is just a niche product. For most people there are better alternatives (A7 series). I would say Leica is adapting the RX1 concept for an own product with similar features, but for totally different customers.
The RX1, and later the A7, was quite a competition to Leica M’s, but not the other way around.
maybe we can buy the old RX1r’s off the Leica folks who need the new one! 😉
The RX2 should be announced shortly.
RIP the RX1.
Personally I can’t see Sony making a RX1 successor, the focus is on the FE lens lineup and the A7’s. Its a tough sell with the A7/A7II selling so cheap. Yes the RX1 is smaller, has one of the best 35mm lenses you can buy, and some amazing IQ and a few other benefits – but at 3x the price of the A7 its just not going to sell in numbers to make a profit. I’m willing to bet the RX1 hasn’t been profitable and the halo cameras are A7’s. There just doesn’t seem to be a compelling reason to build another with IBIS and better AF making its way into A7’s.
They might use it as a test platform for the curved sensor. It is pretty much the perfect platform for it.
I suggested (and got flamed by the purists) that they could even expand the system to include a 24mm, 35mm and 85mm interchangeable lenses design specifically for the curved sensor. The lenses would be tiny because they would require fewer elements and it would give the RX1 series a new direction. They could probably compete with m43 in terms of size but kill it in image quality.
Field curvature is only one out of many aberrations. I would not expect a huge improvement in size. Maybe if they leave out spherical distortion too and correct them in software like with the other cybershot models. If the lens is the rumored half of a stop brighter, I would expect it not any smaller compared to the RX1 lens.
Well, anyways, it is questionable if an RX2 will come true and it is extremely super uber highly questionable that it will come in two or more different focal lengths.
“expect”… look into 35/1.8 patent which has been published long ago
I could not remember any specific measurments or comparison with the current RX1 lens. I had the impression it said just “…increase in image quality, a reduction in size, and a reduction in thickness…”, but not by how much.
Sorry, I did not read the complete text of the patent, so, I may be wrong.
We’ll see.
I wouldn’t be that surprised if there was an RX1 successor in more than one focal length. But I really wouldn’t expect Sony to create another mount, one specific to the curved sensor of a RX1 successor.
I don’t really expect them to make a new mount, but it would be pretty cool if they did. In my opinion it would make more sense to make 3 new lenses and a slightly modified FE mount than 3 different cameras with unique focal lengths.
That would be a real Leica killer (although Leica users just buy it for the red dot).
The problem with that is that different lenses will require different sensor curves. Without a lens specific curve, you’re stuck compensating for the shape of the imaging surface, just like we are having to do with today’s flat sensors.
For example, an 85mm designed for a sensor that has a curve optimized for a 24mm lens will require additional elements to provide corrections that wouldn’t be necessary for an 85mm that was targeting a flat sensor.
Fair enough, but presumable the corrective element would be narrower than than the one (or more) required to correct for a flat surface, so you would still have thinner lenses with (possibly) less elements.
The solution will be a flexible sensor. LOL. Just kidding.
Haha, how cool would that be though? One day we might get that. 😀
Sony says curved sensors offer greater sensitivity, better IQ and simpler lenses – this sounds more like a formula a camera phone where they will sell a few hundred million sensors annually, not a niche product that will sell in the thousands. This fits the Leica business model, not Sony’s.
Just my opinion, but I think this tech is mostly for the next generation cell phone camera.
they could also make a s & r version as well 12mp &36 maybe 50mp
is it 3x? AFAIK it’s about 1.5x and you still need lens for A7.
B&H lists the RX1 at $2800, the A7 is now just $1000 – so I rounded from 2.8x to 3. Yes you need a lens, add $450 for the 28/2 or go up from there.
you can buy the RX1’s off ebay and used for around $12-1300 and that’s completely worth it. Love that camera and hope they update soon. Wished they updated firmware for the RX1 and RX1r but I guess not. That’s Sony. Meanwhile saying the RX1 is a bad deal compared the the A7 series is natural but until you’ve owned and used the RX1 you might want to hold your fire. I just love it and the images (that lens) wow wow wow…(triple wow). I own an A7s and it has it’s charms, it’s small etc but still love the Rx1 more.
I never said the RX1 was a bad deal, just that there’s not a compelling business case for producing another one since it won’t sell for $1200, but will again come in around $3000. I’m not talking about used prices 2.5 years after a camera is released because Sony doesn’t make a dime off those sales, and all they’re concerned about is the bottom line. I’ve actually owned one and I’m considering getting another because the output is so good.
I would say to be fair, you have to add a 2.8/35 or a Loxia. But in both cases it is still not fully comparable (one stop slower or missed AF). Either way, not 3x.
Does it really matter? Add the 28/2 and it’s still 2x the price.
Did anyone ever end up making out on that Sony mess up on Sunday? We need an update!
My bet is that someone probably screwed up with a static content push. Considering how many text and spec issues Sony’s website has, I doubt that they have some kind of a back-end management tool, which allows for quick text modifications. It’s all probably done by having a dev team provide a hotfix.
This kind of stuff actually happens fairly often, but it’s not always on such a scale, being such a massive mess up.
As for Amazon Sony store, these guys probably just use the API from the Sony website or a seed script, to update prices and various other description text. So as soon Sony website got messed up, Amazon followed suit.
If its not ccd monochrome with disastrous iso400 and minimum price of $8000, i am skipping it.
what was wrong with its iso400?
It was pretty bad considering it is monochrome. Ok, not 400, that was a hyperbole.
If the spec sheet would be the only aspect of a camera, then the only ones who buy a Monochrom would be millionaires. But that is not the case. There are tons of people who have spent their last savings for a Monochrom. And no, this one has not a red dot. You may call them idiots, but they exist and there must be reasons other than the red dot, despite a CCD and “disastrous” ISO400.
BTW: The Monochrom ISO400 files I have seen, are pretty darn gorgeous.
If I had anything like the money needed, I’d buy a monochrome in a heart beat. Absolutely stunning images. Sadly it is around 10x what I can afford.
CCD monochom had plenty of usable high ISO.
While the f1.7 28mm lens speaks the name Panasonic, I think it will be a new lens, given the fact that it will cover a full frame sensor.
I’m interested in it.
I hope for a Manual M 28mm coupled to the sensor, but I know this won’t happen.
why should it speak the name Panasonic, since when has Panasonic a 28 mm f1.7 for FF?
What has it to do with Panasonic?
When I have read f1.7 I thought immediately to the 20mm and 42.5mm m43 lenses from Panasonic. I don’t recall any M Leica lens having an f1.7 aperture. This might be the first though.
And considering how much the f1.4 28mm summilux costs, I doubt a similar quality lens will be on the Leica Q (or its price will be even more high).
The Leica X (Typ 113) has a 23mm f/1.7. Not sure of any others. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did it to differentiate between their f/1.4 and f/2 primes, being half a stop between the two.
The Leica X (Typ 113) has a 23mm f/1.7. Not sure of any others. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did it to differentiate between their f/1.4 and f/2 primes, being half a stop between the two.
“the f1.7 28mm lens speaks the name Panasonic” in what way?
I have answered below 🙂
I think that Leica continues to try to make a niche within a dwindling camera market. I hope that they continue to survive. We don’t need another Hasselblad.
I think the Minilux still looks awesome today, that format would be great to see.
But, knowing Leica, it won’t compete with RX1 in the same price range. It will be at least $5000.
Curious comment by the admin. Is the a7 really “killing” the RX1? I haven’t seen anything to suggest that and it would be inconsistent with my personal buying experience. When I bought my RX1, I don’t think I gave a second thought to the a7. They seem to be completely different cameras for different purposes. The big advantage to me with the RX1 was to leave a whole bunch of lens, size, and weight. at home without sacrificing image quality. If the RX1 is not selling in huge numbers it is probably mostly because its a very expensive niche product that is not for everyone. It either complements my DSLR as a second camera (e.g., when I am using a telephoto lens), or it substitutes entirely (e.g., travel photography). People seem to be put off by the lack of zoom, but for me, particularly when traveling, I am more often yearning for the ability to get a little wider Also, Sony marketing has bungled this one too. Its a unique, ground breaking camera that Sony marketing, with its short attention span, failed to fully capitalize on. On the other hand, the a7 would just seem duplicative of my DSLR to me, and lacking the advantages, especially the incomparable image quality, that the RX1 brings to table.
“Incomparable image quality” -I completely agree. While I have not yet used the 35/1.4 FE, nothing gives the rendering of the RX1/R IMO. It’s in a league all it’s own. Can’t wait to see the follow up (RX2).
I agree that the RX1 has still it’s benefits. But I have no doubt that the A7 outsells the RX1. By a wide margin!
Yes. I fully agree. What I was reacting to was the comment that the a7 is stealing away prospective RX1 purchasers. I doubt they are competing against each other for buyers. I expect that prosepective a7 purchasers are not seriously considering the RX1, and vice versa. The “problem” for the RX1 is that many people do not see the value at the asking price or, even if they see the value, they just don’t want to spend that much money. Sony certainly must have anticipated that in setting the price point for the RX1.
Hmm, I’m not so sure about that. I think most of us have to decide for one route. A7 or RX1. Maybe I underestimate the RX1 customer base, but at least I, and many others I know, couldn’t afford both. So, I would say they are competing against each other.
They have quite different use cases, they’re not competitors, they are complimentary.
For most people, I would not recommend the RX1 as their only camera. There are just some things that it’s not as well suited for as a DSLR. It’s greatest value to me is the freedom it affords me to take beautiful photos spontaneously. It is almost always within reach. But it has its limitations. If you can only afford one, you might think about the a7 which, as the admin says, is more versatile.
I too have a RX1, and I have found the same problem as you when it comes to the wider angle requirements.
My solution: I bought a panasonic wide angle adapter which is designed for the 14-42mm lens and modified it with a 49mm filter thread, it works surprisingly well (though not perfect) and is pretty sharp at center.
I might look to do the same with the new wide angle adapter for the 28mm when it gets to our shores in New Zealand
The wide angle adapter for the 28mm FE is already available in New Zealand: https://www.sony.co.nz/product/sel075uwc
yes, online, but it takes a while for the main camera stores to get stock on it 🙂
The have it in Sony stores too. Where in NZ are you?
in Auckland, I don’t see it in photowarehouse’s website, I might go by on Friday to see if they have any in stock, I don’t think there is a sony store anywhere close by though
I don’t think Photowarehouse have it but I know the Sony store in Wellington has it to rent, I imagine that at least one Auckland store will have it too. If they don’t give them a call, they’re pretty good about getting things in. I’m holding out for the macro.
hahahaha, I don’t think the Sony store would appreciate it very much if I rented it out and then disassembled it
Ahhh… probably not! But if you’re already sure you’ll buy, just order it direct from Sony. They have NZ stock so you’ll have it in a day or two.
haha, yes, and i’ll be sure after i’ve tried it out, which goes back to waiting for a local store to get stock of it 😛
Gotcha. We’ve gone full circle here.
What did modifying it involve?
I removed a part on the adapter and 3d printed my own one just to reduce the distance and then screwed on a 49mm UV filter with the glass removed
http://imgur.com/a/TUjpj
You can try this too (somewhat limited, but no modification needed):
http://bmupix.com/reviews/2013/7/16/shooting-wide-the-sony-rx1-at-26mm
I still want an RX1 and I have the craptastic A7.
I think the lens is the issue with it… apparently the Leica will have a 28mm instead of a 35mm. And if I were going to have only one lens on a small FF point and shoot I would prefer the 28mm over the 35… which is also going to be a tab bit faster and most likely a bit sharper than the Sony… though honestly for the price of either of them I would simply get the A7 and an adapter for an existing lens in my drawer… Can’t see either of them making any sense at the price points they have them set at.
Don’t be too sure it’s going to be great. Their X’s Summilux and the T’s 23/2 can’t even maintain max aperture close up. If they integrate that into this body it’ll show their commitment to cost cutting on their luxury compacts. Couple that with their generally low sensor performance, and you have another over priced turd for the Hong Kong elite.
If you seriously think Sony sells more RX1 than A7 units today, your judgement suffers from a fair amount of reality distortion. No offense, just sayin.
You are changing the thesis. The issue is whether the a7 is “killing” the RX1 sales. The word implies much more than simply the a7 selling better. No offense, but try to follow.
It’s not about what sells more, but the clear differential between a system, comprised of multiple bodies and lenses, and a single camera. Because one is a camera and the other is a system doesn’t make one better than the other, so RX1 sales are not dependant on A7 sales because those who want/need:
Anything other than 35mm
Built in EVF
Faster shutter speed than 1/2000
Flip screen
Better video…
… will not be looking at an RX1 anyway.
buy glasses
$5000 would make it the cheapest Leica FF digital camera Leica has ever released. That would be quite a good deal considering it’ll come with a lens that is probably worth about $5k just by itself. Most likely the price will be around $10k or closer to $8k is they want to make it seem like a “deal” compared to the M cameras.
And how big is that? and how is it better?
The edges and corners are not better, even at f2.
It may be on par from 2.8 onwards.
Bokeh may be comparable but not easily better.
What makes it better?
Show samples.
I so can’t wait for this. I’m lighting my money on fire right now in anticipation. Oh, Leica. Please give me the safari edition. I just bought some new trousers from 3K and this camera has to match or I’ll set myself on fire.
I myself agree with you and would prefer a 50mm, but there are a few reasons for wider lenses. First of all, the 35 mm is considered more versatile since you can crop a 35mm shot to a 50, but you would have to use panorama mode to go in the other directly. The other reasons is that a 50mm lens would be larger than a 35mm. As far as I know, there doesn’t really exist any fast but small 50mm lenses, and the RX1 in particular can’t increase the size of the lens any further.
yes, People always say, that you can crop from a 35mm, if you want 50mm.
but i do not want a 50mm eqal fild of view, i want a 50mm lens.
real 50mm just looks better.
and i want to use the full sensor size, when i pay much money for a big sensor.
This “news” is a month old already:
http://lavidaleica.com/content/leica-q-type-116-coming-next-month
thanks! I’ll look into that, the main reason why I bought the panasonic one was that it was on sale as its discontinued, meaning I got the fisheye, macro, and wide angle adapter set for about $55 USD which is a amazing bargain!
Ricoh isn’t really sold here in NZ which is why I was looking forward to experiment with the wide angle adapter made for the Sony FE 28mm
If it costs 3x the price, is it really a “competitor?”