The new Canon 5DS 50 megapixel sensor got tested at DxOmark (Click here). And the big surprise is that it doesn’t even come close to the Sony 36 Megapixel sensor performance! DxO writes:
Thee EOS 5DS is far behind the best sensors we’ve tested. The Nikon D810 and the Sony A7R, for example, both offer around two-thirds of a stop better image quality, with overall scores of 97 and 95 points, respectively, compared to 87 for the 5DS.
For Color Sensitivity, the D810 and the A7R are also two-thirds of a stop better than the 5DS at base ISO.
For Dynamic Range, there’s a much bigger difference among the three sensors at base ISO, where the Nikon D810 and Sony A7R sensors are far ahead. Landscape scores of 14.8Ev for the D810, compared to 12.4Ev for the 5DS, put the Nikon over two stops ahead, and the A7R just under two stops ahead with 14.1Ev.
Now you can only imagine what score the new A7rII sensor will get. I bet it will break the 100 points barrier 🙂
Editor’s note: As usual some fanboy attacked me for using the term “far behind” in the title of this post. Please note that this what DxOmark said and not me…SonyAlphaRumors! As usual with those tests you have to take them with a bit of grain of salt. A good camera is not defined by the sensor quality only.
A7rII and RX camera preorder list:
In USA:
A7rII at Amazon, BHphoto, Adorama, SonyStore US, FocusCamera, Uniquephoto.
RX10m2 at Amazon, BHphoto, Adorama, FocusCamera, Uniquephoto.
RX100m4 at Amazon, BHphoto, Adorama, FocusCamera, Uniquephoto.
In Europe at:
A7rII at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT. Wex UK.
RX100m4 at DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT. Wex UK.
RX10m2 at DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT. Wex UK.
In Asia at:
A7rII at Digitalrev, CameraPro.
RX10m2 at Digitalrev, CameraPro.
RX100m4 at Digitalrev, CameraPro.
433 Responses
they just put two pieces of 7dII together to make 5dsr, same tech same procedure, I’m not even surprised
“far behind” is a stretch.
They are behind, though.
the CMOS tech, design, and procedure they use is exactly the same as 7d from 2009, compare with the sensor from D810, which is the same as D800 from 2012, still behind.
and this camera is going to sell for 4-5years before they come up with any upgrade
I don’t know about you but I agree with DXO，they are far far behind
nonsense.
the technology changed with the 70D.. you know nothing.
Really depends on how you use it though.
exactly, i think the graph supported what I said.
if you compare 5ds with D700 from 2008 or D5000 from 2009, you will see they have around the same DR, I’m sure if nikon take the same tech from D5000 and make a full frame will end up the same result. All somewhere around 12EV
but now is the generation we have 14EV
and don’t even mention about “how you use it” argument, I could use a out dated 350D take multiple shots, with bracketing and photo merge to get the same result as D810 has(only if the subject doesn’t move)
but we are comparing cameras here, not photographers
If you use ISO 800 on all 3 I don’t see why 5DSR is “far behind”. Every camera has its own place to fit in.
oh, in that case I could also say I won’t see any different between D810 and my iPhone if I just want to see the photo on instagram
once again, we are talking about the limit, the max, and the ultimate quality.
Not about the photographer， not about you say something is just good enough or you don’t need that much
for many pro photographer out there, 2EV difference means good or nothing for them
Are you sure you should use an A7r in a wedding scenario taking place at dawn in door? Probably I probably should just use an iPhone.
This is why I say every camera has its place. Nobody buy a camera for something it can’t do well unless they really have no experience with cameras.
I never say a camera can suit every scenario. if you need light and portable，sony mirrorless is a good choice, if you need pro body quality, nikon has it, as well as sony sensor inside.
there are many different categories but non of them canon can come to top these days, especially when you consider the price
The Sony sensor doesn’t make A7r and D810 equal in terms of DXO measurement. They are still different.
Did I say they are the same anywhere in my comments?
and in fact they were different
No, but I think it is not very meaningful to emphasis they all have a Sony heart.
the IMX094 was designed by nikon, manufactured by sony, D800 D800e D810 and A7r all have different versions of it, but the basic structure stays the same
thats why they were different， but result on DxO were similar
Now, if you look at canon sensor. the design, tech process, and material use were all bloody shit, ask any semiconductor technician you know around you, they will tell you the same thing
Yes. But Canon overall still has a place to fit in.
Does it “heart”!?
Who cares who makes what? We are the user of the finished products, so choose wisely and be happy!
2 stops less dr IS far behind. resolution is what keeps the scores relatively high compared to their other sensors (which up to now were just 22mp if i’m not wrong), but overall the tech is still the same.
i’ll also be very curious about the a7r ii
A7rII will be “far ahead”.
If you put the dates of manufacture as consideration to see how Canon is doing with their sensors, as lalala says, then i’d say I can agree more with “far behind” but I’d still hold my point of view on that.
But, does this mean then that Canon did not buy the sensors from Sony as rumours said?
To be correct: DR difference is about 1.5 stop at ISO100, about 1 stop at ISO200 and about equal at ISO 400 and higher – according to DxO
Myself a Canon shooter, was watching with concerns what Sony/Nikon are praised for until I had a closer look at DxO. Next would be a direct personal comparison in my own workflow and apply the shadow recovery that is recommended for Canon that looks pretty good or equal to Sony/Nikons recommended shadow recovery workflow.
Still, I am attracted by the newer lens line from Sony/Nikon but what holds me back is the nicer color and handling from Canon, IMHO. It’d be nice to see Sony a7′ to improve exactly in latter mentioned areas for the size and weight advantage really would pay out. In fact, the technical differences are too small in practical usage and the difference up to personal preference only, IMHO.
I’d say a sensor based almost entirely on 2007 tech, released in 2015 qualifies as “far behind.”
I agree. It should have been written “miles behind”!!!
yep, Canon are f*@ked.
The Canon sensor may indeed be “behind” the Sony sensor, that’s what real tests suggest, too, but a pseudo-scientific benchmark that tries to compare 36-megapixel sensors with 50-megapixel sensors by looking at 8-megapixel images is no indication for it, let alone evidence or proof.
And what I’d like to rather see is a comparison with the new 42-megapixel chip of the A7RII…!
start your own site publishing measurements of sensors.
Sorry, but I already have a job. That won’t keep me from calling bullshit wherever I find it, though.
It’s not “pseudo-scientific”. The comparisons are made using sound technical principles, and the principle of using equal output size is perfectly valid. The way the mathematical equalisation is done, it really doesn’t matter if what the output resolution is as the same relationship would prevail provided, of course, that the chosen output size isn’t greater than the native resolution of any of the cameras being tested. If you want to compare the results at native output, then those graphs are available, although that disadvantages the higher resolution sensor.
Of course if higher resolution is a critical issue, then the 5DS will have the upper hand. I
As it happens the results are pretty well what we would expect from comparing Sony sensors with those from Canon. For the most part (the A7S being the exception), Sony sensors display something called “iso-less” behaviour. What that means is that DR declines linearly with ISO as the read noise is fairly consistent and low through the speed range. Canon sensors do not behave like that. The have low read noise at higher ISOs, but read noise increases at lower ISOs. This is the reason that Canon sensors cannot reach the same maximum DR that Sony sensors do (and why the A7S suffers on absolute DR at base ISO). Whether this is important or not depends on usage, but it will be exhibited by banding and noise in shadow areas of photos taken at low ISO levels. This will only be seen if shadow areas are “lifted”. This is not a theoretical issue, it has been shown many times. For many photographers this will be irrelevant.
At higher ISOs, Canon sensors are fully competitive. It’s in the absolute maximum area at base ISO levels where this issue shows up.
For what it is worth, I expect the new A7R II sensor to produce the best ever DR measurements for a FF sensor given that the BSI design and copper interconnects probably means that it was freed from some of the trade-offs which had to be made for front-side illuminated sensors.
i only push my images 2-2.5 stops… i have no problems doing that with canon.
if i had to push my images 4-6 stopps i would think about what im doing wrong.
Whoever publishes figures like “2381 ISO”, “2853 ISO”, “2746 ISO” has already proven to be ignorant of some of the most basic scientific principles. Even if those figures would represent sensor sensitivity as camera manufacturers use it by ISO and CIPA standards. The figures don’t, which makes them grossly misleading. The 8-MP-restriction (excuse me if I do not try to further explain why it is utter stupidity) is not the only stupid mistake DxO are making.
I suggest you read the technical guidance notes that come with those tests. Firstly they do not reflect sensitivity. What they are is the ISO level at which the dynamic range meets a particular target level. It is not claimed to be a measure of “sensitivity”; just the highest ISO at which a particular quality threshold can be met. Choose a different DR threshold and you will find the comparison rather different (e.g. drop the required DR a couple of EV and the A7S suddenly has a huge lead). Secondly, they state what differences are significant. In your ISO examples above there is no practical difference between the Sony & Nikon cameras and even that with the Canon is just marginal.
You also fail to understand that the 8MP decision makes no difference at all to the relative ratings. They could have chosen 12MP, 16MP or some other figure. The relative rating of the sensors (rather than the absolute measures) would not change at all. The whole point is that it’s to equalise comparison for any given output size. Of course if you need 32MP of resolution for a given print size, then choosing a 12MP camera would not be acceptable. But that is not what they are measuring (as they make clear). For measurements of achievable resolution, see the lens tests (which are better described as lens/sensor pairing tests).
I would certainly disagree with some of their terminology (like calling the ISO test sports – or for that matter even calling it an ISO test). Rather than dealing in the headlines I prefer to look at the individual charts as those more accurately deal with the IQ that you might expect to see. So if you want a camera where you can lift detail out of shadows at base ISO, look at the DR curves at base ISO. If you want a camera that produces the best results for action shots at very high ISOs, check out the DR curves at those levels.
So to repeat again, the 8MP figure makes utterly no difference to the relative rating of sensors.
So it wouldn’t make a difference if they had decided to use 1 MP, either? And the results would still be meaningful?
The problem is that, for DxO, resolution by itself has no value and doesn’t count for the score if it is more than 8 MP. And that’s just a ridiculous way to judge sensors.
I have read and discussed their “explanations” sufficiently, for a long time, in many places. No, it’s not scientific, it’s an elaborate scheme that, on one hand, tries to be and, on the other, only pretends so by giving numbers in precisions which are meaningless to several orders of magnitude. Admitting to it in their small print doesn’t make it better. And yes, their ISO figures are sensitivity figures as soon as they label them ISO and they know it even if they don’t admit that. Actually, what you describe them to be is nothing but a way to describe sensitivity. It’s just not what should be called ISO – as you yourself state, which is exactly what I mean. The figures may very well contain interesting information, but they’re not ISO, and using a bad terminology (just because a name is widely known, whether it is correct or not) is, in itself, unscientific.
No, it would make not a jot of difference to the relative placement of the sensors as regards to the measurements they make if the equalised output was 1MP or even less. That’s because there is a very well defined way in which factors like DR, mid-grey SNR and so on change with down-sizing. All these things improve in a very precise and predictable manner and is defined by information theory.
Note that this is not to say that resolution isn’t a factor. It is. It is just that it is not a factor on the IQ parameters
As far as “sensitivity” is concerned, it’s a rather poorly defined concept. ISO was defined in the era of films, and had some meaning in that it related directly to how much light had to fall upon the film surface to give some sort of standardised output. However, even here it’s somewhat ambiguous. Plenty of films could be “pushed” in development to give apparently higher sensitivity albeit at the expense of noise. Unfortunately the concept of ISO has been carried over into the digital era where it is really not appropriate at all. Videographers have long used “gain” as the relevant term as, in reality, what different ISOs are in a digital sensor are different degrees of signal amplification (usually analogue, perhaps some digital). In reality all sensors have one basic level of sensitivity (often called the “base ISO” level), and what is called ISO on a digital camera is just a factor related to how much amplification or gain is applied. All DXO are measuring is how some critical factors, like dynamic range and mid-grey SNR as that gain (labelled ISO) is applied.
The Canon 5DS absolutely trounces the Sony & Nikon in between 36 & 50 MP. It will also be superior than the A7rII between 42 & 50 MP.
Just remember one thing folks, VHS was indeed behind Betamax. Best quality doesn’t always win. In fact, it’s not the best predictor of what wins.
Notice that 5DS has some imrpovement over low mp canons in low ISO DR
That makes me think of mobile phones market in 2007-2010.
Canon is like Nokia. The old leader trying to follow other brands innovation (Googapple) but always stays behind
I was thinking similarly. Maybe they are not doing so stupid as Nokia did.
Take Sony-Ericsson as an example. Best camera phones, best Walkman phones, until they missed to instantly follow the others jumping onto the smartphone train. It took them some years to get properly back to the market with the currently very good Xperia Z range. But even now they are just an underdog.
Relaxing on success is a dangerous behavior.
Canon shall urgently rethink their new-technology behavior.
Camera market is much more conservative than smartphone market
The Blackberry analogy is correct, I think. And Blackberry users were somewhat conservative in nature.
Nokia was playing to the masses, and Apple simply deviated their customer base by doing a better job of serving consumer needs and tying the phone to the rest of our increasingly digital life.
I am afraid camera market is more like transforming to audiophilia-like market
I wrote an article about that very thing last decade ;~)
Dmitry, yes, I agree.
What I aimed to come down to is, that the corporate behavior could become the future problem. Ignoring technology progress sooner or later impacts a companies position in the market.
The fact, that due to market type it may take much longer until it becomes a real issue, doesn’t matter at this point.
I beg to differ on this completely unimportant side-topic. Nokia had the best cameras most of the time ;).
More like Blackberry.
As a professional photographer who is a Canon fan, I agree Canon is dropping the ball. I shoot Commercial Architectural images (much with natural light). Once you realize the better DR improvement of other cameras (in my case, I was editing photos from a second shooter who used Nikon) ,you’ll realize how far behind the sensors are. In my case, highlights are not so much the issues as are shadows. If I’m lighted, bracketed, etc…It does not matter, deep dark areas (like dark toe rails or kick plates between cabinet bottoms and floor) become so noisy and ugly. The Nikon…smooth as silk…plus the ability to pull shadows up slightly to bring out detail. For the canon shot, its noise software, masking in and hand blending higher bracketed shots of the dark area, etc..just a mess and waste of time.
I won’t wholly disagree with DXO’s findings, although I’d be much more inclined to pay attention to the likes of you and your ‘real world’ experiences, but I haven’t a clue what they mean by “around two-thirds of a stop better image quality”.
I wasn’t aware image quality was measured in ‘stops’!
Maybe 200iso = 320 iso
I’m like you, just gessing
more “stop” here means more details. if you go to camera comparison in DxO，in the measurement table, you can see a rainbow like line on the right, move your mouse on that and it will show you a illustration of how these data difference in real life samples. in other words, more “stop” means you get more details, more details means more smooth, less details means pixel look
You may well be right, but ‘detail’ is not necessarily ‘quality’.
Quality is often an intangible, composed of many factors and cannot easily be expressed. This can be seen when you get a shot that, for various reasons, is not the very best as regards exposure, noise, and sharpness, but you can process to get a pleasing result. As to what you do to reach that may well vary between different people owing to differences in taste; some will like sharp and accept noise artifacts, while others prefer to sacrifice some detail to smooth out the noise. In such a case, it is impossible to quantify quality.
Bingo. I speak of data integrity, or optimal data. What we want is data that as close as possible represents the reality of light coming into the sensor. If we add lenses in, we want data that is as close as possible to the reality of light presenting to the front of the lens. Anything that causes a deviation from that is unwanted.
The question, of course, is how much of perfection do you really want to pay (or wait) for? Versus what is good enough for your needs.
NO, you missed the point. we are comparing sensor ability here
the advantage of better sensor is measured by wether it could record more information or not. I may not need all those info, but that’s just me, Say sony sensor can record 100 possible info behind each image, my final result may end up only need 1% out of all the data it has. But you can’t say the rest 99% is useless.
once you lose the details, you lose them forever, and you don’t know if you will need them later or not.
I could make any portrait photo to a less detailed andy warhol screen print,(if this is the quality I personally want to achieve)…BUT, I can not take a screen print and find back all the details of a portrait photo.
just like I can use a RAW file to make 100 different “quality” JEPG，but I can’t take a JPEG， and use it find back all the info the RAW file has
so you see, good sensor is about giving you more flexibility in retouching. thats the quality we are talking about here
I beg to differ and suggest that is you who have missed the point.
‘We’ aren’t comparing anything at all and the original point I raised was that DXO implied that quality was measured in ‘Stops’ when it most certainly is not.
If you go back to my original post you will see that I accept their findings regarding the Canon sensor, but simply queried their summary.
I’m always puzzled as to just how easily things I say are misconstrued, especially as I pride myself on my careful choice of words and grammatical precision.
They set a noise baseline (‘maximum acceptable noise’), then change ISO until they get to the baseline limit.
The stop difference is then the ISO setting between any two cameras showing the same noise baseline, with other things (such as resolution) factored out (normalised).
You can convert many camera image quality parameters to stops in that way – set a quality baseline, normalise all the other parameters so you are on a common scale, then change exposure in some way until you are about to breach the baseline.
Isn’t that just acomparison of noise then?
I thought quality was far more than just noise. Otherwise it’s like saying a Ferrari has a better quality ride than a Rolls Royce by 60 mph.
Comparisons with cars aren’t really very informative. Frankly there isn’t really much more to sensor performance as it impacts IQ than resolution and the dynamic range achieved at any given ISO. Yes, there are a couple of minor tweaks with regard to filter densities, which impacts on the ability to distinguish colours, but this is tinkering.
The three really important factors that impact on this are QE (the % of photons detected), the full well capacity (the number of photons that can be detected without saturating) and the read noise. Modern sensors are fairly comparable when it comes to QE and full well capacity, which largely leaves how read noise varies with ISO as the big difference. All Sony system camera sensors (with the exception of that in the A7S) have fairly consistent and reasonably low read noise across the ISO range. Canon sensors have high read noise at low ISOs (which damages base ISO), but tend to be comparable to Sony sensors from around the 800-1600 ISO mark.
Of course there are other things that matter; read speed which impacts on such things as video, maximum frame rates, the ability to keep an EVF updated and so on. So the above is about the technical matters that impact on raw IQ and not other aspects of performance.
nb. the mid-grey SNR is (for sensors with similar QE) almost entirely due to the form factor of the sensor as it is dominated by shot noise. For those who are interested, it’s an excellent way of estimating the light loss in Sony’s SLT cameras as, in effect, the SLT mirror reduces the efective QE.
I understand what is being said and the technicalities involved, but I think this is missing the point I made.
If we are comparing noise, say noise, if we are comparing DR, say DR, if we are comparing efficiency, say efficiency, but I have no idea why DXO imagines quality is measured in ‘stops’ as it isn’t, never has been, and never will be.
If you look back over their history, I’m sure you’ll find many who find issue with their grading system anyway, as the overall figure (which I presume directly relates to quality) does not have any units attached and seems partially arbitrary.
In that stops is mentioned, that’s just a common shorthand for expressing the relative difference between sensor performance for a given IQ parameter. When somebody says a given camera is (say) half a stop better at a given point than another it simply means that the results the latter can get at (say) 400 ISO the former can get at about 560 ISO. Or, if you prefer, it can achieve the same with only 70% of the incident light.
I’d certainly agree that their rating numbers are somewhat arbitrary and I don’t place much emphasis on those. I prefer to look at the individual measurements.
kind of. Noise and sharpness are closely related – if you take the sharpness at base iso and optimum lighting, then the sharpness will degrade with noise even assuming perfect focus and perfect lenses… the noise adds ‘mushiness; (for want of a better word!) as less light comes in. You of course also lose other things such as color accuracy. The ability of a camera to reject that noise and color inaccuracy for as longs as possible is a primary sign of sensor quality.
As to the ferrari example – by that analogy, we are only comparing the engines (sensor) so its actually a much narrower comparison. We can then make much more qualatative comparisons rather than having to compare the two cars subjectively, and things like ‘which gives us the best ride’ is outside remit.
I’ll point you to the reply I made to SteveGJ.
The question I raised was concerning the simple statement made by DXO implying quality is measured in stops. It isn’t, in the same way a car’s quality is not measured in MPH!
No. Noise and “sharpness” aren’t as related as you think, unless you’re thinking of what noise reduction does to edge acuity.
People are perceiving that cameras without AA filters are sharper than ones without. Much of what they’re seeing is actually false information around or below the Nyquist frequency. Faux detail. Indeed, you could call it a form of noise. Sensor noise actually tends to do the same thing (assuming it’s luminance noise and not chroma noise, one reason why Nikon put such high emphasis on eliminating chroma noise). Noise doesn’t tend to add mushiness until it is extreme.
Interesting to hear from a professional how important certain characteristics are in an overall workflow.
That’s entirely consistent with the DXOmark scores. The relative weakness of the Canon sensors is the relatively high read noise at lower ISOs which means noise becomes evident in the shadow areas. Of course it’s all a matter of usage. For a sports photographer this won’t matter a hoot as a few steps up the ISO scale the Canon sensor is fully competitive.
It’s just a consequence of the technical design of Canon sensors.
very true. Probably most photographers will not need the extra stops of DR. But for the ones who do, its a major deal.
yep, which is why who want to use DXO results as part of the process of choosing a camera really need to understand what the individual measurements mean. This headline stuff can all be thoroughly misleading.
Really great sensible opinion, I chose Nikon because The DR, but canon will still remain competitive due to specific functionality.
Where is the freaking DXO test for the Pentax 645z with 50mp+ Sony made sensor? This is what I’d like to see. But I guess they get paid NOT to test it..
laugh out really loud
The 645z is one amazing medium format with a very tempting price~ too bad it doesn’t have leaf shutter lenses at the mean time thus the sad 1/125th sync speed. But not sure about HHS mode though
At least now there is an alternative for high speed sync flash for Pentax http://flashhavoc.com/priolite-hss-for-pentax/
Paid not to test it? You’re starting to sound like a paranoid Canon user, seeing a global conspiracy under every stone.
And even further behind the a7rii
I wonder if A7Rii will break the 100 mark for the overall score.
I said some good things about the a7rii on Canonwatch…and got banned for it.
:I
Barry please bare with me on this, but I have a question, and I do require at some point total clarification of the idea, however in due course. For now, may I ask, do you ever use a periscope with camera? and what would the problems be in using such with usual focal length lenses on camera and separation from the cameras original position of the view it captures? This is important to me and I reckon I just applied the idea originally so lets go on from that because my purpose is still discrete. How would using a periscope of any length effect angle of view and so on?
I was thinking maybe you might be able to use for macro of insects or something too, but my use is with wide/normal/tele lenses in normal use.
im further wondering if it would require lenses, and how detrimental they would be to image quality if ever used.
I have never used one.
Since I have no idea what your motives are I will not provide any help or support for what could be an illegal or unethical use of photography, and make us all look bad.
‘:I
Its not for that. And I would really have liked an answer, and have found that relay lenses are used to extend in periscopes, but am still curious as to the latitude in using the mirror kind with reasonable size on a normal lens and camera.
Could you use one is the main question, this is not the Barry we all thought we knew is it?
i make not so good photographers look bad that is all. Even good ones.
And chances are running out for remainders of the first existential reckoning of who is and who is not real and serious about photography.
‘Johannes Gutenberg, known for his contribution to printing technology, marketed a kind of periscope in the 1430s to enable pilgrims to see over the heads of the crowd at the vigintennial religious festival’
We were BOTH printmakers, so please help answer the question seeing as it has truly non sacrilegious origins.
It would be like adapting a camera to many other types of optical instruments. The details would depend on how the periscope image is produced. Does it use an eye-piece like a telescope, if so you could probably find an eye-piece adaptor to use. Many use T2 mounts which can be readily adapted to A or E mount. If it is the cheaper type with just mirrors or prisms then you would just need to play with lenses that would allow you to look through the periscope. Once again this depends a lot on the periscope optical properties. The camera will not improve the image, nor widen the field of view, all it can do is record the image being produced with hopefully as little degradation as possible.
It is solely for shooting with the camera directly through, with the periscope held steady in front, perhaps even for a shorter version, connected to camera. What I really want it for is to shoot with any lens from around 21mm up to longer tele, say 200-300mm, now with that in mind, the question I have is, would a large periscope with simple mirrors for instance, provide a like for like shooting experience to being higher up where the other mirror views the scene ahead, and would this periscope have to be over 5kgs to do this with those focal lengths and my camera manually controlled and accessible at all times. I ask this question and refine the point, but an answer is unlikely to be forthcoming for all the advice it provides and potential photographic improvement. Cue in fact bs comments that get mine deleted instead.
You could just shoot with the light reflected off two mirrors one in front of the camera lens and the other at what ever height you need. The first mirror can be just a little larger than the lens diameter the second would be what ever size is required for the spread of the light, depending on the focal length chosen for the lens. A telephoto would require two small mirrors and a wide angle lens one small and one very large. To get around the second mirror needing to be very large would require the use of corrective optics in the light path, which gets very complicated. You are in essence building a folding optics lens at that point. you may be able to get a wide angle view by using a telephoto lens with a flat mirror near the lens and a convex mirror at the top. The easiest solution is to use a camera like the Sony Q series and just use WiFi to beam the signal down to a smart phone. The camera can be mounted on a pole.
Thank you, yes I figured they may be differentially sized for wider angle and I reckon you might still need light blocked out with cloth or something, however the fact a telephoto requires only two small mirrors makes that one viable, and that’s the one I actually want most 😀
No poles, as that’s exactly what i’m trying to avoid 🙂
well pro canon comments are filtered here too…. i amde a few.. i know.
Were they the type of “good things” you said of Canon products and future versus Sony prior to the 5ds/a7r2 announcement – here on SAR over the last year?
Except for the single feature of higher resolution the 5ds/r has been a disappointment.
I would have bought one if there were not so many things I did not like about it.
Just as I say both good and bad things about Sony I also say good and bad things about Canon and Nikon.
Based on the E mount system as it was when I made the comments E mount would fail when Canikon competition appears around the end of this year.
I stated over and over again what Sony must do to compete…IBIS, full lens compatability, and higher resolution.
Sony has done exactly what I said they must do to successfully compete, therefore I now claim they will be succesfull.
As I see ot that makes my comments correct…obviosly you see it otherwise, and I do not agree with you.
The purpose of all these comments to me is to help facilitate change in the direction I want change to happen. I played some part in that process, and neither me or you, knows how big a part that was.
I now call for 78mp or better bsi camera with native iso one stop less than the a7rii, optimized for still pictures with no compromises made for video.
I also call for 300-600mm f5 lens with 150mm barrel extender and dedicated drop in 1.8x tc..and if possible .6x focal reducer..to sell for mid $3000 range.
If Sony does not make it hopefully someone else will.
I will continue to make these suggestions as I have done with my past suggestion, and I will probably be accused of being repetitve and boring, also as in the past.
“The purpose of all these comments to me is to help facilitate change in the direction I want change to happen. I played some part in that process, and neither me or you, knows how big a part that was.”
I know how big a part you played in the process of Sony developing their sensors & cameras:
How do you “know” this and what do you thnk you know?
I know that you post comments more to irritate than feel delusions that you have an open line to engineers (or imaginary managers) at Sony & Canon. For instance:
Regarding a SAR post about the new batch of FE lenses –
– The Prof wrote: • 5 months ago
“A7ii, A7s and A7r: how is that not catering to different customer needs?2 ”
– animalsbybarry replied to The Prof. • 5 months ago
“Get real…these are all toy cameras for common everyday snapshooters with only common everyday snapdshooter lenses in wa, normal, and portrait focal lenghths available.
If you even have to ask that question than you clearly fit into that category.”
Source: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/preparing-for-the-new-fe-lens-announcement-what-lens-will-sar-readers-buy/
So you clearly do not “Know” what level of influence these comments have, like I said.
As for being a toy camera with snapshooter only lenses…..that is exactly what E mount was until they finally implemented the long overdue changes I been suggesting since Nex first came out.
You have zero influence.
Only one body has been announced since those comments. All of the other bodies and lenses remain the same. Essentially what you are saying is that the entire system is / was a toy system for amateurs until you pre-ordered a body. And you are not even a professional photographer. Interesting logic.
You have zero knowledge of how much influecne I have had.
You also have zero knowledge of what my comments mean…despite reading my comments quoting my comments, and having them explained to you multiple times by me…the person that actually wrote the comments…you continue to invent your own meaning of my comments, contrary to my meaning, and insist you know what I mean better than I do!
E mount was a toy until they put Full AF compatability, and IBIS on it.
Those are the features that make it a real system now.
BSI, and higher resolution make it even better.
Thats what now makes it a real system now, not the fact that I am buying it.
That is also the reason I am buying it….If I did not first believe that I would not be purchasing it.
I have multiple times explained my comments to you because you seem to be incapable of understanding my meaning.
Are you going to continue to invent your own meanings for my comments, even though I have told you the correct meanings and insist you know what I mean better than I do?
I do not have zero knowledge of your comments, you are flat out lying about the things you said. Your past comments speak for themselves.
IBIS already existed in the a7II when you made that comment. There has only been a single E-mount camera announced since you made that comment, no new lenses by Sony yet and Canon’s 5ds announcement.
Politicians like to backtrack and come up with new meanings for things they previously stated once they find themselves on the wrong side of history. Just like you.
You hsve less than zero knowedge, because not only are you incapable of understanding my comments even after they are explainrd toyou but you foolishly continue to insist you know my meaning better than me
Full af compatability, and Ibis…spelled out clearly for you one comment ago …look up the definition of and!
I do not understand what kind of fool it takes to argue tje meaning of a persons comments with the person who made them.
I wrotr the comments , I know what I mean and your distorted intrpretaions are the lies…since you have been told mutiple yimes directly to your face, by the person who wrote the comments exactly ehat they mean….the same person who is again telling you directly to your face what they mean.
Apparently you have some sort of control issue snd think you can change meanings by arguing with me.
I decide what my comments mean …..not you….regardless of how you argue it!!!!!!!!
And I am not a politician.
Politicians backtrack their statements and try to spin a new meaning when politically necessary. Your statements, predictions and words from 2 to 12 months ago without clarification today state that:
– Canon would dominate mirrorless in 1.5 to 2 years,
– Sony is terrible because they have not released a 54mp camera for you (same density as 24mp aps-c),
– Canon is coming,
– Sony is terrible because they have not made EF / F mount adapters with native communication,
– Canon is better because a lame super zoom is EF native,
– Sony is terrible because e mount is a toy system for toy users because they only released an a7 for budget full frame, an a7r which still leads the resolution of 135 cameras, an a7s with the best low light performance and the a7 II with revolutionary IBIS…but no 50+ mp camera
– canon is better because they once showed off a 100+mp demo and will dominate mirrorless
– Sony is terrible because if they do not come out with the highest MP sensor before Canon in a-mount then they will go out of business
– Canon’s mirrorless EF system will be vastly superior to everything even though their current mirrorless is terrible
– Sony blah blah blah
When I provide your direct quotes you stare at them and say they mean something other than what They plainly state. You made yourself quite clear. That’s the danger of repeating yourself over and over and over again publicly in written form.
How can you totally ignore everything I say and pretend to be an expert on what I say and thier Meaniings.
You twist and distortcmy comments and assume your distorted meanings are mine even after I have told you what they mean.
Every word and coment said by every person can be interpreted in multiple ways.
You choose to search through years of comments in order to find hidden meanings that you choose.
Those are your meanings not mine.
Until a7rii E mont was a toy
If Sony did not make the changes I have been suggesting….which they did….Canikon would dominate next year.
I wanted those changes, thats why I made my comments..to get those changes, and they are totally consistent with what I now say.
Has every one of my predictions happened..no ….but the basic important ones have.
I will throw you a breadcrumb
Foveon like tech has not happened, and I am not at this point certain it will…the industry does not currently seem to be heading in that direction any more. So not everything I said has happened…78mp has not happened yet either…but it will.
I have not twisted anything. I posted your comments in their entirety with a link to the source (that is how evidence based arguing is presented) from months ago not years. I’m not willing to waste time to go back years.
I am saying that it is you who is not distorted your very clear and obvious meanings to contort with being so wrong. You rationalize being so egregiously wrong by stating you were only negative so as to convince Sony to design what you want – which is absolutely ridiculous to anyone reasonable person.
You are being disingenuous. No explanations are needed when you say something like Canon will dominate mirrorless by 2017 and e-mount will be dead. Now 2017 has not come so your prediction however highly unlikely could still come to pass.
“Until a7rii E mont was a toy” [sic]
Thus anything that does not appeal to you is a toy, which is ironic given the child-like reasoning and petulance behind the statement.
This is enough…I will not subject SAR readers to any more of this nonsense, nor will I waste any more of my time.
I have told you what my comments mean but you have your own fantasy version of what I mean.
So believe anything you want, I am done and moving on to current events and future improvements.
The person who is claiming to bear responsibility for the a7rII sensor, IBIS & design is criticizing me for concocting a fantasy version. Ha!
Thanks for the laugh of the day.
Tell me – have you considered that Sony & Nikon are about as responsible for your paintings as you are for their cameras?
If I had an open line…as you claim….I would only need to make each comment once! Obviosly from the many times I say each thing I do not believe I have a direct line…only by persistance do I expect to be heard.
If you feel disappointed in 5Ds, that doesn’t mean thousands of Canon users do. Better color fidelity alone makes me want to get one. This is a studio camera when DR at low ISO does not matter. On the other hand, higher resolution, more accurate colors, EF lenses play far more significant role than DR.
You can call for 278 MP sensors, but nobody is going to manufacture then without financial benefit.
If you actually like the camera go ahead and buy it.
This comparison test is against the older soon to be replaced sensor in the d810 and a7r, and the brand new Canon does not fare well against them….the new a7rii will substantially outperform all 3 of these cameras, leaving the Canon way way way behind.
So that is the camera I am getting, the a7rii.
So you go ahead and buy the 5ds/r and when you finally realize how much you are missing out on by not getting the a7rii, you can get one of those too, and still use all your Canon lenses with full high speed autofocus.
The whole point is you no longer have to choose between Canon or Sony, you can use them both interchangeably.
Leaving Canon way way behind in term of what? The whole point is that there are lots of people who prefer Canon sensors vs. Sony ones. Not everyone would choose DR vs. color fidelity.
I am restating what I said in a differrent way to possibly make it more understandable..
In the overwhelming majority of features and specs the Sony a7rii will outperform the new Canon, but not in every feature.
In some features the Canon will be superior.
If those are the features that are more important to you than the other features than buy the Canon.
If you have decided the Canon better suits your needs that does not prevent you from also buying the Sony for those times when the Sony will better meet your needs….and your Canon lenses will still be fully functional.
So niether one of has to be right or wrong, you can stay with your canon system .
If you are shooting today in the studio and feel the Canon would be best for todays shoot use it…If tomorrow you are shooting in the field and feel the Sony is best for tomorrows shoot use it…or use them both and pick the best shots from each.
You do not in any way need to reject your Canon system just to own an a7rii plus adapter….it can now just be part of your current system.
If you are willing to spend the money there is absolutely no reason for you not to buy your Canon.
I shoot animals as refference for paintings.
Color fidelity is relatively unimportant to me, as I can and do change the color.
Changing a battery 2 or 3 times in a day is unimportant to me, I can do it in 3 seconds blindfolded.
I am willing to live with 5 fps…so for me the a7rii is a clear winner…plus I can use my current lenses, better iso, better focusing, better dynamic range, lighter and smaller, less expensive, silent shutter …all stuff I find advantageous for what I do…plus the new FE 90mm f2.8 macro lens seems to be the best 90mm macro out there…and a lens I will use a lot.
And when Canon does build a newer better camera you can buy that.
Lol what did you say?
So the 14bit RAW in the Canon serves not much purpose, or if they don’t have 14bit they will have even worst result…. Basically Sony is handicapping their competitors until they went 14bit
The compressed SONY RAW is really no big deal at all. I think if SONY switched to 14 bit uncompressed RAW, I’m willing to bet 99.9 % of photographers could not tell the difference…even if they are pixel peeping, lab geek editors. If some claim they see a difference, I bet it s caused by some other charactoristic of the sensor.
Well, many Medium format shooters says the 16bit output really does matter to them compared to 14bit raw. The gradation and dynamic range is just amazing if you check out the Pentax 645z. The shadow and highlight recovery is totally insane
I still say the “improvements” they are seeing has more to do with the overall fine performance of the sensors vs the 2 bit difference. If they took same camera/lens, same sensor except making one 16 vs 14 bits…they would be hard pressed to see a difference if any at all. I would almost bet on it
I’m willing to bet that 99% of photographers couldn’t tell the difference, either. But, that still doesn’t make throwing away data the right thing to do. As many of us long term digital folk (20+ years for me now) have discovered, software keeps extracting better results out of older data.
Moreover, I think it’s ironic that you try to point this out in a thread that was about how much better the Sony sensor is than Canon’s ;~). That same 99% of photographers couldn’t tell the difference between a 5Ds and a A7r image, either.
I think you are missing my point. I’m saying the improvement they are seeing is due to other factors vs 14 vs 16 bit. Unless DR is important in your work, most will not see a difference between a better Sony sensor vs Canon. I’m not arguing…just my opinion from MY experience with both 35mm and Med Format
Can’t say that I have enough experience with MF files to make a strong statement about that. For DSLRs, 14-bit makes a difference over 11-bit and 12-bit at base ISO, even on Canon models.
The whole question of whether people can see a difference or not is mostly unrelated to any of this, frankly. Having been teaching with digital for 15 years now, it’s rare that any student I encounter can see low-level differences until I point out exactly what they should be looking for and how visibility of the difference might be triggered. Even then many don’t see any difference.
Frankly, having shot Canon and Nikon’s top gear side-by-side several times at different points in the digital era (last time was about a year ago), I can point to small differences either way that MIGHT (emphasis on might) be useful to a few, but generally won’t impact the way most people are using the cameras. And as I’ve pointed out many times, a lot of folk who shoot raw seem to dismiss the impact of the converter they use.
Yes medium format has so much more data to cover the frame, even the best 35mm sensors are not there. Mostly depends on output format. Most publications, there’s so much variation on the printing press side of things, the camera format is the leastt of one’s worries. I’ve shot MF for magazines and the printing output was so bad (rest of magazine as well)…it could have been an old Kodak instamatic. For fine art large scale prints…nothing beats a good photographer with a MF system. I really like the Phase one system (I rent) for my upper scale Architectural shoots. The amount of detail, especially in background landscapes, is amazing. The problem is noticing things that need to be edited out (like a far away fire hydrant or something similar) that may not cause a distraction with less details.
Well, to be honest, I must agree with you~=D Especially in my place where most print shops really have problem getting a good print output. Well, since I shot both mainly Sony and Olympus and sometimes Canon, the bit difference really doesn’t seems that apparent if you have good lens and lighting set up.
Just that the recent “Bit Wars” really confused me a lot and makes me think otherwise~
Unfortunately there difference comes up quite frequently in night shots of cities and other structures that are illuminated by intensive artificial light sources – large homogenous saturated dark areas, high contrasts, extremely bright spots in dark surroundings tend to bring out JPEG-like compression artifacts that just should not not be in a RAW file. I don’t know what determines the eventual outcome; sometimes it’s really bad, sometimes almost OK – but it’s unpredictable. Nice feeling, especially as it can’t be judged in the (in case of the A7R extremely poor) viewfinder nor on the backside TFT.
I agree to some extent that the cRAW usually doesn’t make a huge difference in daylight shots or even landscapes at dusk or dawn. But for the aforementioned situations it clearly does. Its utterly random occasional destructiveness definitely keeps me from using the A7R for the intended purpose: exterior architecture and cityscape at night – although that’s what it was actually bought for together with a Canon TS-E 17.
Thiom, good info about nite photos. I find that quite interesting. I’m 85% certian I’ll get an A7Rii because I’m tired of waiting for the 5DIV or new 1D. The reason I never upgraded my 5Dii to a 5Dii is that overall image quality almost identical, especially with DR. I was hoping the 5Ds/r was the answer. But it isn’t. I think I read above that current Canon sensor tech seems like 2007 versions. I have say I agree. besides the more resolution (MP), the 5ds/r is very disappointing for me anyway.
This is not so good.. we need healthy competition. Sony need it too . Otherwise we will not see much advances if they stay complacent
canon outsells sony by a factor of 4-5 .. i think thats enough competition.
At least Samsung is doing some pressure on the APS-C front… (luckily)
True! May be Samsung will develop new full frame mount much like FE . The NX mount is unfortunately flawed at its very basic and is beyond salvation
Short term Sony are still investing enormously in sensor tech. But yeah if we ever get to the point where Canon just give up (we may already be at that point looking at their last few years of cameras!) or switch to Sony sensors they might slow down the train yeah.
You’re wrong. This IS good, because the market needs to stop rewarding Canon for making bad sensors. The current market is an unhealthy market that rewards bad leaders.
Sony is already challenged by the fact that their sales remain relatively lower than Canon’s.
but that’s not Sony’s fault. Actually, they still develop new sensors, like the BSI or the rumored new A7000 HDR sensor…
Sony will always advances no matter there is a competitor or not. They will even compete to themselves like the A mount and E mount scenario~ Sony will advance no matter what
the sony sensors are maybe a bit better.
still canon makes the best cameras. 🙂
and when i look at the images from sony users… 90% could be done with a 5 year old rebel.. so what?.
technology is way ahead of user skills these days.
don´t worry about technology.. worry about your own skills!
a happy 5D MK2 and A6000 user.
I really didn’t expect the 5DS so far behind A7R.
Still no ‘ghost mode’ for street photography from Sony.
Steve Huff breaths deeply in excitement~
You know what, I just had an idea, maybe the best for some time. Thanks for somehow inspiring it, actually its conjured up from all. I also worked out the foil for those bs agents only 10 or so minutes ago. And right after just now also figuring out the irony of the one ‘real’ upvote for one of their ‘remarks’ by a swede ‘artist who cannot stand photography or age of art image reproduction’ whose country neuters such as this leader, and unfortunately china too does that sort of thing in another context :I And the whole world in respect another matter much further still.
I’m obviously worth everything because I even worked out my trickiest photographic problem, just NOW. Right now today, after your comment.
I might as well be categorically the best photographer now 😀
I don’t know if my idea will work yet though 🙁 no?…
I know history repeats itself, you did this for many years to the end only suiting yourself and not the situation and now here same.-papertiger
Before you invented, now its my real life and relations and interests being ruined directly.-papertiger
Maybe you should read Socrate
I mean this seriously, with the best intentions, but I think you should seek help.
Go and find someone who might understand the problems you have and help you see the world clearly. I fear that you have a psychosis, possibly manic, that fills your head with a constant stream of thoughts. Unfortunately, most are figments of imagination and until you get assistance to sort reality from fiction then you will struggle to communicate fully.
I might wanna give Steve Huff a call to investigate our friends house. His problem lies in the realm of supernatural~
Link?
http://huffparanormal.com/
Now that IS funny! Truly hilarious stuff.
You know what, I just had an idea, maybe the best for some time. Thanks for somehow inspiring it, actually its conjured up from all. I also worked out the foil for those bs agents only 10 or so minutes ago. And right after just now also figuring out the irony of the one ‘real’ upvote for one of their ‘remarks’ by a swede ‘artist who cannot stand photography or age of art image reproduction’ whose country neuters such as this leader, and unfortunately china too does that sort of thing in another context :I And the whole world in respect another matter much further still.
I’m obviously worth everything because I even worked out my trickiest photographic problem, just NOW. Right now today, after your comment.
I might as well be categorically the best photographer now 😀
I don’t know if my idea will work yet though 🙁 no?…
I know history repeats itself, you did this for many years to the end only suiting yourself and not the situation and now here same.-papertiger
Before you invented, now its my real life and relations and interests being ruined directly, by you intentionaly.-papertiger
My solution is better? no really..BETTER? than worse….It surely won’t work 🙁
Perhaps if I could ask a real physicist and with smarts I could find out-Animals by Barry might be able to answer it too easily- he just might be able to use same idea, maybe does even already. if I could do so discretely, I can’t obviously, not that doing ALL myself has ever hindered me like the ruination of my life by interference and manipulation proven false continually.
(Previously posted 3 hours ago and later deleted on basis of reference to Canon supposedly, but not in fact contained- now returned to give context to other posts- none with reference to Canon as per the title above)
Sensor competition is death right now!
It’s funny how on Sony forums DXOmark’s scores are treated as gospel, but in Canon forums, DXOmark results are all treated like biased garbage. Surely there is a median point?
Not exactly. Note that the headline didn’t say “Sony A7r still in second place in high resolution sensor tests.”
This need to claim “best” to me reveals low esteem: some external test validates someone’s decision on gear. Yet last time I looked, the world’s greatest photographs in the past year were taken with a wide array of cameras, many of which are older models.
I believe it was ten years ago that I started writing “if you aren’t getting excellent results at the largest size a desktop inkjet printer can produce with any of the current DSLRs, it isn’t the camera that’s the problem.” Still true.
Very well worth repeating, Thom!
The problem is that the tests we can use in the camera world are either verifiable, or repeatable. When a layperson sees a score from Imatest, DxO or other site with results that, on paper at least, appear to be verifiable, they get caught up in the numbers.
That is the problem with this sort of thing. I think that many of us realise that the Canon will make images we can’t imagine, and so will its forebears and theirs, but the numbers are hard for geeks to skip over.
I know it is for me.
Still, we really should, as it sort of breaks systems down to component parts rather than divide systems based on use and utility. As you have time and time suggested, it’s not the highest-end tech that makes great photos. But it is so much easier to get on board with tech that boasts crazy numbers.
*For some value of excellent
The headline simply reports what DxO says. Of course the 5ds is a superb camera and takes wonderful pics. But it’s still interetsing from a tech point of view to see their new sensor not mathing the Sony sensor performance. it’s OBVIOUS that photogrpahy as a whole depends from a great amount of factors like lens quality, skills, usability and so on. So I don’t think Canon 5ds owners should be worried.
Common sense, or, the ability to think for yourself. Andrea certainly helps along the childish fanboyism with the call-outs and often biased news (e.g. only the Canon lenses that worked -as posted on Instagram- were reported, the other half of the test, where the Canon glass failed, was ignored).
Nikon Rumors is the site to beat in this genre. Granted, their products aren’t nearly as exciting as Sony’s, but the owner does his research and he approaches news, results and rumors like an adult. No ritarded grammatical errors in every post and no mass postings of affiliate link “deals” that usually aren’t deals– done so often it borders on spam.
But quality issues and boyish attitudes aside, Andrea posts a lot, and he is obviously excited about Sony. And there’s enough here to read that I come regularly, so it’s good enough for me.
if you bought a camera that has 5 years old tech at full price because you are a idiot, not only DXO, but DPR, and NU and many other test site all end up with the same result saying canon sensor sucks.
would you happily talk about it in canon forums?
Canons are like buying 5 year old cameras but at full price.
Bye Bye 3400$ camera 😀
far behind? That’s what hifi freaks also use to say when they discuss about speakers but the difference is hardly noticeable and in the end I went for the pretty standard Monitor Audio Silver Series. So who cares.
Canon themselves stated the sensor would be similar in output to their APS-C sensors, so apparently they thought the difference was noticeable enough to put out that information/warning.
As for audiophiles, the ability to appreciate quality is rare- that’s why nearly everyone settles for a crap Bluetooth portable speaker, and very occasionally something like Monitor Audio. You’d notice the difference between your MA Silvers and a proper B&W 801 setup, though, unless you regard full range loudspeakers as “freakish.”
Anyway, a big part of the reason Canon is “far” behind (it shouldn’t need to be pointed out, as everyone seems to get it) is that Canon has failed to innovate in any other way as well. It’s not just sensors. Canon’s DSLRs are almost the same now as they were 6 (plus) years ago, with big flapping mirrors, physical designs that can only generously be described as “classic,” and MSRPs on these relics that are totally laughable.
It’s not ability, but a delusion. Audiophiles were unable to tell quality in blind tests. difference in DR beetwen canon and sony sensors is very perceptible.
And testable. There is belief in magic in the photo world: Fujifilm fans swearing their lenses are the best ever, ditto Olympus, etc., even though the resolve about the same as any other similarly priced lens of the same era and are proven to across multiple sites. But yeah: audiophilia is a lifestyle into which you heavily invest soul, and this world is more of a hobby where you research and research and invest brains.
Okay, apparently there is mass confusion regarding what the word audiophile means.
Audiophile: An audiophile is a person enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction. Audiophile values may be applied at all stages of music reproduction: the initial audio recording, the production process, and the playback, which is usually in a home setting.
There are nuts in every hobby or pursuit, but if you want to talk about the outliers then don’t use the word that covers everyone in that category.
I may be reading this incorrectly, so let me know: but I reckon you’re an audiophile, or just very socially concerned and against blanket terms. It’s okay. I’m also an audiophile. I shoot cables, DACs, amps, headphones, earphones, bluetooth stuff, and models using each, for a living.
http://ohm-image.net is where you can see some of the stuff I work with.
I don’t mind the pejorative. Audiophiles are like my only friends. I have audiophile friends that are music makers, music production engineers, music enjoyers, DIYers, etc., and I can say without a doubt that most of them believe in magic.
There are others that don’t, that are into the music and want objectively a great experience. But they make up a very very very very small portion of the geeks that get together at meets to listen to new speakers and amps, and who traffic forums.
The people that read Sony Alpha Rumours and DPReview are direct analogues to the majority audiophile.
Audiophile n. Person who listens for noise.
Or prefers the sound when noise and distortion is added to an otherwise pristine recording.
What “audiophiles” are you talking about? It’s like saying wine enthusiasts are delusional, because they failed a blind test. You don’t have any idea what you are talking about. At all.
TylerBr: he’s not delusional. I’ve also run blind listening tests with cables, with volume-matched sources, etc., and found that most of it is just a belief in magic.
In certain cases: e.g., a cable with higher impedance vs. a cable with lower impedance, the drivers of a speaker or headphone could be affected, but probably not.
Speakers would have to have impedance swings close to 1Ω in order for that to make much of a difference, and headphones need to be sensitive earphones for that to be audible.
As to the definition, the ODE says this: “a hi-fi enthusiast”, which sounds tempered. But it is not. The word audiophile has become synonymous with the crazies primarily because the crazies disassociate themselves with people that aren’t as gear crazy, or who don’t generally believe in the same magic.
Engineers, for instance, that understand the electronics and maths behind them, are generally not sucked into the same world. In the world of audio, the more mysterious a thing is, and the greater accumulation of quasi-knowledge, the greater the attraction is for people that really will get sucked in.
And they, like camera geeks, will be on an endless search for ‘the one’ or ‘the end game’ not understanding that the probability that they can tell the difference between two pieces of platform-similar gear is next to impossible.
Yes, wine enthusiasts who fail blind tests are delusional =P
The ‘good’ thing about audiophiles is we don’t build websites that cater so basely to tribalist yearnings. But all the rest is correct.
I’ve been a vocal member of team semi-objective in the audiophile realm for a long time and nothing changes. Would be lovely if there were widely read, widely understood metrics and benchmark websites that were at the front of reviewing audiophile gear. There are not. And by and large, we idiot audiophiles believe in magic.
That said, we don’t make Sennheiser Headphone Rumours, or Final Audio Speaker Rumours, or Lynx Studio Dot Forum. It could be because we are a much smaller group. It could be because we have standard mounts and connections and people get to buy anything and use it around rather than being forced into a specific brand and then bullied into supporting it.
There is _something_ good about audiophilia. Not much, but the lack of as nasty tribal urges is nice.
The best audiophile gear I have is my akg 712 headphones and I love them even with my partial industrial deafness, can still hear the difference from these cans and cheap ones, though maybe not as much as others
Speakers and headphones are just like lenses: they project their vision of the music (or scene). Headphones sound vastly different from model to model. But things like amp performance, which is wrapped up in a few differentiators and a lot of maths, like cable transmission, etc., yield pretty much inconceivably small audible differences, if that.
It is all maths because the outcome (a recording) is already decided and does not change. Interpretive gear is one thing, but ultimate-sounding gear is another, and often, false target.
EDIT: BTW, the AK712 are great headphones.
thank you for your wonderful logic
“because those hifi idiots said the same words, so I will choose not to believe this one, even its a whole different thing”
“far behind” is the term used by DxOmark. So I am just reporting what they say.
So Canon is gearing up to be Sony’s lens division and Nikon their sensor optimisation one ;p
All 3rd party lens manufacturers are welcome in E mount. 🙂
The good news is that DxO can now test canon lenses on HiRes sensors
I have found some examples however where dxomark does not list lenses in their charts with the best possible body combination.
See:
http://www.dxomark.com/content-search?searchText=Samyang%2024mm%20f/1.4%20ED%20AS%20UMC%20Nikon
for example. The Samyang 24mm F1.4 for Nikon mount has it’s charts value taken with the D3 (28) which results in a worse score than it could have been with the D810 (34).
I already wrote to dxo about these inconsistencies some weeks ago but so far all I got was a receipt email.
Speaking in general about DXO: They may use scientific tests but you cannot turn the performance of a camera body or a lens into a single arbitrary number. And even sub scores do not always tell the whole story.
Agree they need some generic 200mpx prototype to test all lenses and make comparisons, they can afford it I think
If they could wrangle separate mounts that could open, shut, focus, etc., lenses from myriad systems, why not. But it won’t happen. Too difficult. To expensive. Too much a drain on DxO’s main business model.
No need… They can continue as today for focusing etc.
What I said applies only to resolving power.
But how would they use this mount to resolve anything? It would be a huge undertaking unless the idea is to only test older lenses that are hardware-controlled.
It is a big job you’ve asked for.
But with high-res medium format backs a lot could be done. I just don’t think creating mounts for Canon, for Nikon, for Fujifilm, etc., would be feasible.
A website is already doing this (i forgot name Sorry)
Dxo is a big company with a lot of income
no problem
Lenscore is doing something like that but they’re results and methodology are questionable. They give very little detail about their methodologies and don’t provide any sort of detailed measurements, just single number scores.
they can make a stitch adapter with pentax Q on it…
but in the end what would it prove? There are sites that do that and it is interesting but pretty useless because cameras are systems. E-mount being a recent exception but even there you get loads of compromises using adapted lenses (and, yes, I shoot primarily with adapted lenses)
DXOSony Mark strikes again…
Canon cameras are garbage. Canon can now safely put resources towards lens manufacturing, no need to build another bodies anymore. Rest in peace Canon. Welcome as a 3rd party lens supplier to Sony. I think this was imminent. Everyone knew it was going to happen sooner or later. Well it happened sooner.
Actually there are not if you do portraits a lot. It’s still quite common among those folks. I mean, why buy a camera for things it does not do well.
Hilarious comment. Regarding all the excellent pictures available on the net, it is quite interesting that people shooting with “real” cameras don’t produce better pictures. I don’t use Canon (instead Sony+Nikon) but wouldn’t hesitate using them if needed.
I don’t think so. I think for people that are into the tech of the hobby, maybe Canon is ‘garbage’. And rightly: if tests show that they perform worse then so be it. But I know dozens of well-known photographers that produce art or fashion or still life photography that I am 100% positive no one in this thread could touch with any Sony or Phase One.
It’s not all about sensor DR etc.
And Canon still have the best or the 2nd best and easiest/most reliable focusing system. I don’t own them, but I’ve been impressed many times when using Canons my colleagues use.
Agree. They still can be used as a tool to produce good pictures. Not agree about 2nd best AF and easiest/reliable focusing. Limited AF area in center mostly (unlike Sony A7RII) and less precise eg not on sensor focusing (like on mirrorless) is by default less reliable and not at all easy.
I think ohm already makes it very clear. I have a friend who is a very good casual photographer and he has almost all high-end models from Canon/Nikon/Sony and he still loves his old 1DX. I mean, yes, A7R2 is better in specs now. But Canon still offers something only Canon offers, skin tone for instance. Whoever needs the Canon rendering is not jumping ship just because Sony has larger AF areas.
In the film days people only focus to the middle point. I don’t really see why someone needs to focus to a point near the edge of frame, although I am thankful that Sony has a big AF area.
Simple: Tracking!
He prefer Canon because he think Canon has most accurate white balance during day time among all 3 major manufacturers.
We used to only focus in the middle. Anyway, are you planing to AF to a point near the edge of frame anyway?
I’ve never met anyone that was limited because AF was limited somewhat to the middle of the sensor. Back when I shot sports, weddings, and that stuff where AF was important, I used a D800 and D4/3 (not mine, the studio’s) and never once wished the AF would go all the way out to the side.
That is cool tech to have, for sure, but I don’t get why it is that much of a ra-ra point unless of course a new rule-of-sides came out that everyone must follow.
As for missing focus… I’ve not seen that either. I hear people complain about it, but shooting in studios with both Canon and Nikon (they were the only ones all though I saw a nice A99 and 70-200 out for school photos), I have never seen a missed shot.
I know it is all the storm among online forums etc., but I’ve never seen in it the wild unless it was a hunting problem. Can CDAF be more accurate? I assume so, yes. But does it produce sharper, more usable images for magazines, for weddings, etc.? I see no indication of that at all.
Before you think of me as a Canon fan, I must apologise: I do not have a Canon camera apart from a Canon P. I do not own a Nikon Camera, though I did. I have only one 35mm FF, a Sony A7r. I shoot on bellows and tripod only and use Rodenstock enlarger lenses.
I’m a boring chap. I used to be exciting, and even when I was, I never, ever, had trouble with focus, nor did I meet anyone that did.
Let me understand this… are you saying that Sony cameras cannot produce high end fashion or still life photography as good as a canon camera? I might have misread what you wrote. Please clarify.
that’s passive-agressive
Of course you can if you do it slowly with A7. But in actually use sensor is not the only deciding factor. You still need fast AF, fast focus following, minimum shutter lag, etc. Then color rendering… whoever use Canon for portrait might have a hard time finding replacements from other brands. But I do agree 5DS/R somehow only offer high resolution.
I have no idea how you read that into what I said.
If it is not white, then it must be black.
“But I know dozens of well-known photographers that produce art or fashion or still life photography that I am 100% positive no one in this thread could touch with any Sony or Phase One.”
This is how. Sorry. Im just confused as to what this means.
You’re reading emphasis into the hardware. The sentence is about the photographer.
And the sentence means precisely what it reads to mean. It is NOT a hardware tribalist post. I am talking about the photographer, not the hardware. It is obvious that this thread is about the measurable superiority of Nikon cameras and Sony sensors.
And I pointed out that that doesn’t matter. If you want amazing images, you need:
1. the creativity
2. the energy
3. the eye
4. the know-how
5. the time
6. the endurance
7. the dedication
8. the tireless resolve to finish what you started
It matters very little what camera or sensor you use. Magazine printing isn’t suddenly twice as good or thrice as good as it was 10 or 20 years go. And 10 years ago already digital cameras produced images that would look beautiful.
There ARE times when newer gear makes it much easier. You may even need specialised gear: a MF back, for instance, allows you to use any lens under the sun, no matter the flange distance, with bellows, with magnifiers, etc., but it is a piece of specialist equipment.
It is the photographer that makes the image. It is the equipment that records it. If you can’t make a great image with the poor 5Ds, you can’t make a great image with a Sony A7r.
So if you give these same brilliant photogs a better camera (for argument’s sake the new Canon or whatever) than they should be able to take even better images or take it with less work right? So the gear does matter this way at the end of the day…
What he means it’s the photog that counts not the gear.
But he misses the point that those same photogs could take even better images and easier with better gear.
good photographer can use iPhone to produce beautiful images, but thats not what we are talking about here.
photographer choose to use canon has various reasons. maybe they purchased their equipment years ago when canon is still not too much behind in the competition. and they think although the equipment is out of date, but still suit their need. or some of them just doesn’t care. or with bracketing, and a lot of layers, they could achieve the same result, just need some extra retouching work.
but aren’t we talking about who got the best sensor here?
If someone wants to retouch every shot from his Sony to produce a Canon rendering, why buy a Sony in the beginning. Retouching can be very difficult sometimes. One of the following pictures is taken with Canon and another one Sony. You are welcome to try to make them the same in terms of color rendering.
Done 🙂
Oh yeah, I thought of that. No color solves all problem. I guess my 20 years old film camera can still work
Or fix my life being ruined everyday before even photography or other matters of importance, today like the others, you always justified in nihilism. You are on a roll of personal life ruination now.
Which one is the canon picture? Depending one the lens and camera settings this could have come from any camera.
Which one do you guess? The 2nd is. This is from a comparison review on G1x mk2 and RX100III. I don’t imagine the lens to be so drastically different.
They’re lit differently (maybe just from change in position?) – her face is in shadow in the first pic, but lit up in the second. That’s not a color-rendering problem…
G1X mk2 and RX100iii without flash. That’s a review. But you see what I mean. It can be difficult to match them in colors in post-processing.
Because of the lighting difference (as Fonk suggested) it would be difficult to color match the two images even if they were taken using the same camera.
Have fun talking yourself out. I have photos with same lighting. 2nd one is Sony . Both has no custom settings.
Edited since upload sequence and final display sequence is different. I uploaded Sony first.
As usual Chris, you’re full of it.
I am trying to say there is room for Canon to survive. It does NOT mean Sony is crap. If I don’t praise Sony, I hate Sony. You really should give up that if it is not white then it must be black logic.
Again these are taken with RX100-3 and G1X mk2. Even if RX100-3 is crap, which I don’t think so, it does NOT equals to Sony is crap. Geez.
The issue is not Canon vs Sony in this comparison, the lighting as it strikes the model is different. It’s an invalid comparison.
EVEN for the 2nd batch I uploaded? Then those who shoot in bursts must have suffered a lot, which is not true, as the Sony’s demonstration in 4D focusing performance test on fast moving subjects suggests.
I sold my NEX-5n and RX100 because of the color rendering issue, and picked a Canon T2i. Huge difference, suddenly my pictures looked great despite the “outdated sensor”. I now have an EOS M and an M2, same pleasant color rendering. Sony actually lacks what’s the most important: providing good color rendering.
wow – i’m heading in the OTHER direction.. BTW i’m using these for video only though, my org RX100, the t2i and the org eos-m. when it comes to grading these videos from these cams in a multicam interview, it’s a nightmare.. however the sony image is of a much higher quality and i can push and pull the footage in grading a little bit more before it falls apart.. same cannot be said with the eos-m and t2i footage. just waiting for a7000? specs/samples to come out to decide which way to go for 4k now though.. no canons so far allow me to do 4k for like $700-$1000 like a pana g7 or something like the rx10mk2 which is where i might end up with 3 of those.. mainly cos i like the idea of not caring if i brought the right lens to the jobs lol. 🙂
Ever heard of profiling? Not a Canon thing, it’s a converter thing in general. And as a user, all the colors there can be achieved with a single profile applied to all pictures. Done.
Well, have fun.
Canon has fallen behind technologically but their cameras and camera system of lenses and accessories is certainly not garbage. Canon needs to innovate it they expect to maintain their position as sales leader, and start doing that immediately.
waaaaa!!!!!
And how many Canon cameras have you owned to comment on their quality?? lol
To me this shows you can’t go wrong, either way. I still think Sony gives more flexibility and tools, as far as tech. goes, and are pushing the industry forward more than anyone else, but seriously, all these cameras perform so well as far as IQ, it comes down to personal needs and preferences.
Agree. But you need to look at trend. It’s not about minute differences. Yes Sony A7RII is way above Canon 5d3 or 5ds/r in almost every aspect. But it’s about trend. If this trend continues for 1-2 more years – then you won’t be able to say that Both Canon and Sony perform well and it all comes down to preferences. The gap will be so huge, that it will render all your idea irrelevant.
You still have photographer’s producing great shots with film and mobile phones, unless IQ of selected format is miserable it will always be preference/needs in the end.
Lol, liking the crappy Sony UI with the spinning toy wheel on the back? A7 line is going to be a collectible toy in 10 years, just like the walkman (might be a good collectors investment now lol). By then Canon will still be mirror-slapping Sony’s @ss so hard its not even funny.
Might want to read the comments at the bottom of the posted article. Looks to me like some Canon folks are jumping ship with the new a7rII on the way. Who can blame them?
If canon not innovate quickly.. canon remain in future only lens constructor
“Lens Constructor” This make my day~=D
Here’s my take “Lens Chef”
I am amazed how much comment this post gets (which isn’t actually news, all is as expected) and post about Vectris adapter gets very few comments.
I find it even more amazing that the Nissin Off-camera flash commander made for the new Sony shoe has not been mentioned at all!
Off camera flash is one of the biggests holes in the current Sony system, yet when one comes along it seems to be ignored. Very odd!
Nissin seems to have random problems on HSS. I would be more excited if off-camera solutions come out
I haven’t experienced those with the couple of guns I use, although I might be lucky.
This new commander and dedicated set up now on sale looks really very good and is actually beyond anything you could do with Sony’s own gear.
I’m hoping it might be a sign of things to come, that third party manufacturers think it worthwhile making accessories, but I’m astonished at the lack of any fuss.
How is the Nissin Air’s performance? Care to do a mini review? Coz I seems to be unable to find any review
It’s only just out but, to be honest, the price is such that I’m going to get a set because even if it only works half as well as I expect then it will be a bargain!
I’ve never been thrilled with the performance of the HVL-F60M (even though the swivel is a fantastic feature ALL guns should have). Wireless is either a nonsense using a falsh as a commander, or a cobbled together ‘half solution’ using third party triggers. Add to that the overheating…
Yeah,that’s what I’m thinking~
One of my friend is using an Odin and the HVL-F60M and whenever he is triggering HHS (M Mode for the flash), there seems o be a big delay of odd pulsating flash before a more rapid pulsing flash kicks in. I was wondering is this normal for all HSS triggers?
I suspect any odd behaviour is more down to Sony flash implementation, rather than the trigger.
For some reason they seem to struggle getting it right themselves and when you add the lack of licensing to third party manufacturers we have a recipe for a right tangled mess!
Ah I see~ Well, I just hope Sony came out with their own radio flash trigger systems with transceiver for legacy flashes since Sony usually don’t open up protocols for 3rd party developers.
Agreed. Honestly, I only use my HVL-60M when I’m doing on-camera, TTL flash. For all my off-camera flash (aside from studio strobes), I use the Yongnuo system; remote commander unit on the camera, controlling 560III flashes. It’s manual only (no TTL), but who cares? Works great, better than any off-camera setup I can use with Sony’s own flashes.
I’m interested in the Air1 as well, would appreciate more details.
Based on Canon’s own information, the results were very predictable. The 5DS & 5DSR are still very good cameras, a bit overpriced for the features and specifications but still a quite capable system. This over the top negative response is just crazy.
Agree!
The title of this post is really misleading, as if to fire up some kind of childish rivalry between Sony and whatever other users. Why not say that “the A7R got the second position on the test behind the D810 and ahead of 5DS”? That will reflect the result better without implying kind of “my Sony is better than your Canon, you loser!”
DxOmark test are all about lab conditions that most photographers will never face and will never need to push their cameras to those limits, especially when we are forgetting the glass (and all other equipment and situations) that need be put in front of those sensors.
I use Canon at work and Sony at home, and I am happy with both of them.
The title reports the text from DxOmark.
Stop deleting my posts arbitrarily, its discrimination of a serious order.
I’m English and English speaking, why should you remove my posts arbitrarily?
I’m a real person who posts images, and a photographer with Sony cam and gear, its not just bad form but reprehensible to do that with Sony in the title of your site at all. You deleted my idea I presented which represents the ideal of photography, that’s no good at all. Its also a relevant idea to film, I don’t know how you will ever be taken seriously now by any such people with true photographic understanding at all.
I only remove personal offensive posts. Try to remain calm and argument. This is a not a football game between Sony and Canon 🙂
I never said anything about Canon at all. So why was my post removed?
I asked a question of someone, one of few verifiable photographers who might answer it at all.
“I’m English and English speaking, why should you remove my posts arbitrarily?”
An Englishman would write “….why WOULD you remove my posts arbitrarily?”….or he would simply call the admin a wanker if he were truly English.
How can you be English and an English speaker but not be a native English speaker? Just curious.
If all your posts were as concise and coherent as that one the problem would be solved.
As always, the “scores” exaggerate the difference. Yes, the Sony sensor is better. For a landscape shooter at base ISO, they will certainly benefit from increased dynamic range.
But in much shooting, there really will be no effective difference. Also from the DXO review:
“however, the gap narrows significantly as sensitivity is increased and by ISO800, all three sensors offer the same Dynamic Range. So theD810 and the A7R have an advantage for Dynamic Range only between ISO50 and ISO400,”
So the Sony sensor does indeed maintain a base ISO advantage.
What’s interesting, in looking at the overall results… When scaled to the same print size:
Signal-Noise-Ratio is basically a complete tie between the Canon and Sony sensors. I expected the Canon sensor to fall a bit behind. It is behind at the pixel level, but they fall into a virtual tie at the scaled level.
Dynamic range, when scaled… as noted above, they fall into a virtual tie around ISO 400-800. The Nikon implementation of the sensor remains very very very slightly ahead. What is noteworthy, the Canon sensor never really moves ahead of the Sony sensor. So at its best, it falls into a tie.
Color sensitivity, a virtual tie, though one can argue that the A7r is ahead by a hair overall through the range.
So in the end, in real world results, despite the score differences, you will see similar performance. But the Sony sensor will indeed give you more dynamic range to play with at base ISO.
All else being equal, I’d take the Sony sensor over the Canon. But the differences aren’t big enough to get Canon users to switch to Sony.
On the other hand, it will be interesting to see how the A7rii scores….. And whether it sets a new benchmark or not.
So at very best, Canon’s newest flagship sensor ties the 3 year old Sony sensor in some areas.
More like ties it in most areas… with the A7r having a slightly noticeable edge in dynamic range at base ISO.
My point is — Yes the Sony sensor is indeed better. But the scores really exaggerate the difference.
It’s like taking 2 right people… One rich person has $5 million in real estate, $5 million in cash, and $5 million in stocks… The second rich person has $5 million in real estate, $5 million in cash, and only $4 million in stocks..
Yes, the first person is indeed wealthier. But is there going to be much of a real world difference in their wealth?
I find it very ironic how the Sony shooters jump with glee when their sensor scores better than Canon… but then when a Nikon camera out-scores the comparable Sony camera, then the differences are “negligible”.. DXO is overrated, etc, etc.
Actually, the scores only tell part of the difference. Especially the DR score, which does not account for the visible impact of patterns such as banding, which in practice increases the difference in usable DR well beyond those numbers.
Yes, I understand your point. The point I was making was that Canon, as the king of this market has come out with their latest and greatest sensor which is still not at (forget better) Sony’s 3 year old sensor. Based on how fast Canon innovates vs. Sony how big will the gap be 5 years from now?
Agreed. In terms of sensor advantage, Sony “wins.”
But if you went down the whole list of every piece of technology in a camera, and in a lens lineup, you’d find that Sony wins some… Canon wins some, Nikon wins, some, etc.
After all these years, for example, Sony is still behind Canon and Nikon in their flash system. Sony is clearly the leader in on-sensor AF systems. Canon and Nikon obviously still have a big lead in lens maturity. Nikon has the reputation of having the best autofocus algorithms. Canon’s “anti flicker” shutter is theirs exclusively right now.
We could go back and forth endlessly. With the fanboys in each camp claiming that their advantages are massive, and their disadvantages are irrelevant.
The truth is, the Canon 5ds is fantastic to have in the marketplace. I don’t care for it, for a number of reasons. (But I also don’t care for the A7rii or many Sony cameras). It’s great for consumers to have options, it’s great for the technology and competition to always be pushing forward.
Personally… Give me a 24mp top notch Sony sensor, with Sony A7rii on-sensor phase detect to be used in live view, paired with the OVF auto-focus capabilities of Nikon, paired with the Canon lens lineup, paired with the Nikon flash system and auto-ISO implementation, paired with Sony’s EFC, paired with Sony’s in-camera panorama and HDR implementations, paired with a Canon touch screen, paired with Sony’s wifi implementation……
And then I’ll start to get excited.
I very much agree with you about flash systems. Sony needs to do some work there. And it is not at all helped by third party vendors who (naturally) concentrate their efforts on serving the needs of the much larger volume of Canon and Nikon shooters.
So many ties and not enough shirts.
The benefit of most Sony sensors, is that you can stay at lower ISO’s, choose the required shutterspeed and set your desired visual exposure in post-processing. The noise will often be similar to shooting at a higher ISO with those same physical exposure settings (shutterspeed and F stop) but again with much more range (DR) in the highlights. I’ve been doing this for many years and it has clear benefits in low light too, where I would previously (and others still do) shoot higher ISO’s. Especially light sources and directly lit objects in low light retain a lot more information this way, instead of ending up fully white and clipped.
TL;DR
There are low light “high ISO” benefits too, contrary to popular belief.
For print the images are all downscaled. Which diminishes the advantages gained my resolution and dynamic range. It also ignores the fact that post-processing (by most of us shooting RAW) before we downscale for printing and it is in that post-processing phase that the superior color and dynamic range really matter.
Doesn’t really matter whether you post-process before downscaling or after…
The higher resolution of 50mp gives you more post-processing latitude.
The only “advantage” of the non-downscaled images, would be when examining at the pixel level. But even if you look at 100% crops from both cameras — The 5ds crop may “look inferior” but it will also be larger than the Sony 36mp 100% crop… if the 100% crops are normalized for the same size, the differences will disappear.
I am pulling for Sony. In truth, Sony is competing for the hearts and minds of people who are buying their first interchangeable lens camera, which is probably a diminishing number of people. Canon and Nikon are so far ahead of Sony in brand reputation and so it faces a huge uphill battle. Many new entrants are going to take the safe route and buy Canon or Nikon because that is what their friends or salesmen in camera stores tell them to buy. Once they buy that first new Canon or Nikon, and a few new lenses, it will be difficult to win them over to Sony. The only way Sony can crack that paradigm is to outperform the others technologically, make headlines, and win knowledgeable photographers and professionals over to its camp. Word-of-mouth is hugely important. From the perspective of the photographer, marginal technological advances are not going to make a great photographer out of good one. But in terms of winning hearts and minds, these measurable technological differences are hugely important for Sony. It makes headlines, and it causes some people who otherwise wouldn’t give Sony a second thought something to think about. So I salute Sony for what it is trying to do: consistently out-innovate the competition. I think it is the best and most logical way for Sony to move forward. And, as someone who is often the only Sony shooter in a sea of (good-naturedly smug) Canon and Nikon shooters, I really hope Sony is successful. (I also think Sony needs to up its game in terms of customer support, particularly where professionals are concerned (though it has made some recent strides), but that is another topic altogether.)
This is a Sony site. Of course reviews and opinions posted here are biased against non-sonys
???? DxO said it’s “far behind”. It’s in their review. So blame them if you don’t agree with what they say.
Who’s blaming who? . Just saying there are many reviews out there n u have a group of followers who are also Sony fans so articles like this get a lota discussion on this site. All reviews are biased. Same for cars n other items.
Admin reposted post from DXO. DXO is not associated with Sony in any way.
No one was blaming anyone. just stating the fact that all reviews are inherently biased and depends on the reviewers. Some comments trash canon but most great photographers still use canon and nikons. Great Photos come from great photographers and not by the specific brands of cameras.
If I were to measure the mass of a pineapple on a calibrated weighing scale and state that it was 200g ± 10g, would you consider that biased too?
Yes, since you’re measuring the weight, and calling it mass.
Sony cameras maybe be better technically, but the users are insecure enough to bash others to justify their choice of cameras. on the other hand, canikon fans have been already bashing sony lens selections
i’m brand agnostic, couldn’t care less. but 1 thing you should know – there ARE actually OBJECTIVE, SCIENTIFIC, REPEATABLE tests of stuff in the world, and dxo mark wouldnt enjoy the reputation it has if it werent for their strive for objectivity. still, i respect critical thinking – in the right places.
find me another reliable test thats based on scientific calculations and with certified test standard other than DxO, good luck if you can find it and good luck if you find one says canon sensor is better than sony
Oh BTW, its not just DxO said this. the results from DPreview, northup, and many other widely recognized sites with their own test Labs ALL came up with same result. sony is way better.
did you mean all of them biased on sony-nikon?
then where’s this objective and reliable result you would agree with？your own personal opinion？
LOL
So are you actually trying to say that canon has the better sensor?
Did he say that?
If you like the review, its a great review.
If you dislike the review, its biased, probably sponsored by the brand.
Totally understand such thinking.
you’re obviously preaching to a biased crowd. am a sony shooter but can understand the advantages/disadvantages of any brand. had a bmw 335 once and the reviews all said it was a spectacular car, but my own experience and others i knew were the opposite, the worst car ever.
that engine in an audi would have been great; love BMW 6 cylinder 😉
????? Which one did I filter??? I only remove personal offensive posts.
As I expect, 5DS is far behind in shadows and that’s why it lack in comparison as it was with elder 5dII-5dIII. Shadows was bad with banding
If you go to Cannot rumors admin there is fallen so low that it states in the article itself that Sony trolls are ready to go all over it. Can you imagine how low that poor bastart felt? Also notice how small fine print it has to all other links to other rumor sites unlike here on Sony rumor site where all other links are in the heading with big and clear font. It’s just so not sport – I guess when Cannot can’t make any descent cameras their fanboys and even admins start using dirty tricks. That just shows how bad and desperate things are there at Canon.
If they’re still using a mirror in 10 years, they won’t be slapping anybody…
I think I’ll pick myself up an A7R. Used prices are looking pretty attractive.
Uh, i dont know, in the end it comes to personal preference, but i think a7ii is better camera for less money
Thought about it. I’m not interested in another 24MP camera. 5 axis- I have it with olympus and while it’s great- it’s just not necessary. I feel the A7II is worth skipping IMO. If the A7 was the only camera I owned then maybe. I have multiple bodies so I’m willing to wait for the A7III. Touch screen would make me move (and even faster AF). Otherwise, I’ll take the higher res.
I wouldn’t. Shutter shock still a problem. 11+7 not fixed yet.
And even with the “problems” you mentioned, this now almost three year old camera handily out performs Canon’s latest and greatest by a significant margin.
“And even with the “problems” you mentioned, this now almost three year old camera handily out performs Canon’s latest and greatest by a significant margin.”
The A7R isn’t even two years old yet.
The sensor which is also used in the Nikon D800 series was introduced in February of 2012 making it three years old. The sensor in the 5DS is new. The A7 series was introduced in October of 2013 using the same sensor as the D800.
I thought the A7r used the updated version of the 36MP sensor found in the D810. In any case, the general point about the sensor is still valid, it’seems just that you specifically referred to the camera.
It is a slow camera. For now if you need speed, please consider A99.
Dude, A99 is a dog, not a speed demon. Slow at every corner – write speeds, processor, responsiveness. I’m using it less and less these days ever since getting the A7ii. Of course, compared to A7r it faster, but A99 is a slow camera.
If you dont jump the ship, I dont know what other choices I have.
Not sure I understand?
Anyway, I like your model 🙂
Thank you. I mean, if you dont use another brand, A99 probably is the better choice for fast FF bodies.
I already checked that out and I’m not worried about it. I have the grip as well- which from what I’ve read helps reduce vibration especially with tripod work. I do mostly nature, already have multiple other cameras as well.
Even new ones are good.
DXO does not actually test camera sensors and lenses. They calculate these scores. Nothing to get excited about either way.
Does anyone really believe that DXO’s little device (DXO One Super Raw Plus) actually scores nearly equal to or better than full size cameras from Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Sony, Pentax etc ?
Now that DXO has a horse in the race none of their reviews can be relied upon.
You love Canon, don’t you?
Maybe DxO is the only site really being “mathematical”. Thats good and bad at the same time, I know. Good because one can rely on the test procedure in a controlled lab environment. Bad because it does not reflect the usual shooting experience. BUt for things like noise (usable ISO) and the sensor’s ability to draw highlights and dark areas at the same time, it’s not that bad.
DXO has had some very, very odd data in the past that reveals their testing, while in a controlled lab environment, has some serious gaps that can lead their experimental data astray.
Some of their lens ratings are often dumfounding (Sony kit lens is tested sharper than the sharpest MFT lenses, or a single lens having dramatically different sharpness ratings on different camera models with the same sensor.). Their test of the GX7 was one of the most egregious examples, where the predecessor (Gx1) with 75% pixels beat out the new model. Real world use showed that to be completely bunk.
DXO is a metric, but they dont report error bars AT ALL. That’s enough for a scientist to reject. For a consumer, it may point in a general direction, but hardly the final word on the products they test.
He certainly is, from my experience. But I don’t know whether it is offensive or not. From the looks of his profile pic, most Canon Fanatic has his facial feature and trait. I have meet many Canon Zealots for the past 5 years and they all look just like him, smugish, arrogant yet somehow overly optimistic look.
everyday the atomic clock on satellite will result 7 milliseconds deviation than another one on earth,
If we don’t know this 7 milliseconds, the GPS system will result several kilometers deviation. making it not practical to use at all
and theres no way we can measure it, so how did we know this 7 milliseconds?
well, it was CALCULATED on PAPER based on the theory of relativity and Riemannian geometry！
guess what，your GPS is accurate based on calculation， not measurement
You obviously have never seen their test setup and how they work.
Their score from their own camera that you’re referring to is based on multiple combined exposures. The single exposure score is in line with the Sony and Canon cameras carrying the 1 inch BSI sensor.
I can clearly see the advantage in sony sensor, where they place the ADC in early stage, to prevent noise mixing in the analog signal during the transfer. Such design offers much lower electronic noise over the old design on canon sensors.
As we(physicists) all know, electronic noise dominates at low ISO, which explains why sony sensor have much better SNR at low ISO and thus better DR, but canon catches up at high ISO.
I dont know what evidence/reason people have for the “DXO is shit/Its a sony site/whatever” comments, except the Canon Love 🙂
According to DXO measurements, S/N ratio is pretty equal, DR isn’t.
“Print”(normalised to 8MP) SNR is pretty equal, “Screen”(pixel level) SNR isn’t.
DR is determined by pixel level SNR.
Of course S/N ratio at pixel level is worse for same generation sensors with smaller pixel pitch. What did you expect? DR is different for screen and print size. Look at the measurement curves (11ev to 12.5 ev at base ISO). You can define DR for downsized images of course, too (group 4 pixels and you get sqrt(4*signal_single pixel) better DR (shot noise).
What if I were to crop? One of the main benefit in high MP is to enjoy cropping tight with good IQ right?
Cropping is basically throwing away information. So if you crop half the image from a FF camera, you get about the same IQ as a APSC camera.
Many MF shooters crop their images because the IQ is so good in 1:1 that they can crop more tightly. One of the important aspect of sensor IQ is how good it is in 1:1 crop. If the senor has high MP but the IQ sucks in 1:1 then there is no meaning to it.
For example, try compare 1:1 crop from a 20MP camera phone to a 21/24MP Full Frame sensor, both almost have the same MP, but the quality is very very obvious.
you are missing my point, I am talking about sensor size. MP is not a concern here.
For your example, a 1/3″ phone sensor(iphone5S) is 1/50 the size of FF, so if you crop the image from a FF camera to 1/50 of its size, if gives about the same image quality as your phone.
Ofcoz this is only true for same generation technology, but u get what i mean.
Ok my bad, that wasn’t the best graph to look at, the good one is Full SNR.
The problem on canon sensor is actually this: Read Noise at shadow region.
Look at grayscale 0.1%, 5DSR has a gradient closer to 20dB/decade, which means it is dominated by read noise. While D810 is more towards the shot noise curve.(~10dB/decade)
So the problem is at shadow region, the SNR of 5DSR decays far more rapidly than D810.
Better?
Here an interesting comparison involving dowsized images to 36MP: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3673531883/dxomark-eos-5ds-r-sensor-is-highest-ranked-canon-sensor-yet
Interesting, seems like they managed to come up with the same conclusion as mine.
Agree with you. Canon approaches Nikon when downsized strongly. But Nikon (Sony) is much stronger at larger MP numbers.
It’s not about the MP though, Canon’s SNR gradient catches up at around 10-15% gray. So anything under mid-tone, sony sensor wins.
Take a look what our friendly neighbor is chatting on the other side of the fence with the same topic:
http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-eos-5ds-and-eos-5ds-r-dxomarked-best-canon-sensor-so-far-still-lags-behind-sony/#disqus_thread
(To Admin: Does all the rumor site run under one roof or it is from separate entity?)
I spoke highly about the A7Rii and got banned from CanonWatch for it.
Here CanonWatch admin boldly claims he does not censor good comments about Sony, I have tried to respond to this claim but cannot because I am banned.
Could someone please post this response for me to CanonWatch admins claim.
“Animalsbybarry says
I have made only positive comments about the a7rii on CanonWatch and you banned me for it. But here you blatantly claim you will not censor pro Sony comments.
That is clearly not the whole truth …you have banned me for no other reason.
Barry. “
Try to post as guest? or Disqus remove that feature already?
But I bet the Canon fanboys will start trolling the clarification…=(
I have just tried…I am not able to do that.
Could you or someone who reads this please paste my comment to canonwatch abmin under his comment for me? Thanx.
Come on, Canonwatch is the worst… Ignore that bullsh!t.
Couldn’t agree more. Look what the admin wrote. More like it treats the DXO article very personal~
I guess the canon fanboy will come here instead and you can tell them that. No worries, nowadays, Canon fanboys crashes Sony’s party
Banning of all “pro-sony” comments sounds reasonable…
At least this is the only explanation why there are only 21 comment in total… hahaha
The sites here are run by 3 people. The SAR and M43 admin is the main guy.
So do they like going for a beer afterwards together laughing at all the comment section together?
I’m just happy that there is renewed R&D in our industry again. It has felt a little stagnant over the last few years, and it’s nice to have competition. We all win from that. Let the big companies fight over our business, and keep introducing great technology. We all benefit, regardless of your system of choice.
The problem is, there is no competition. Canon’s latest sensor is still inferior to the Sony 24mp FF much less the 36mp. No new technology really, just combining of older sensors. Canon should have leap-frogged Sony to really light a fire.
Sony only has a superior sensor for it. Canon made a much more usable camera for photographers who make a living with their camera. Sony isn’t even trying to be on the same field with Canon and Nikon. a7rll may have a chance if it delivers performance in tough conditions. a7 line is an advanced amateur series. It drops the ball in low light AF, battery life, speed of operation, shutter response and much more. I tried all the Sony offerings in a7 line with the corresponding lenses against Canon 5Dmk3. Worth mentioning lenses CZ16-35 F4, FE55 F1.8, FE70-200F4, Batis 85mmF1.8 a7s and a7ll could be good manually focused. I can’t rely on this system to catch critical moments.
Isn’t this article only about the sensor?
Corrected, thanks. Sensor wise I couldn’t see much difference in real life up to iso 12800. Canon delivered clearer more pleasing images needing very little adjustments. I was able to catch more interesting moments with 5dmk3 that were sharp thanks to accurate and FAST AF and no shutter delay.
All these differences are apparent inly at base ISO when pushing and pulling files. If you are sitting above ISO400 most of the time, it makes no difference which sensor is used.
I’ve been shooting weddings, events, portraits with the a7r for the past year and a half. I’m now using an a7II, and will soon add an a7rII into the mix. AF, speed, shutter response etc etc are perfectly capable for professional work.
As much as I like what Sony does, and own quite a bit of gear in A-Mount(my only system), I’m not blind to the kind of equipment that Canon and Nikon make. If a photographer on my own wedding would have showed up with a mirrorless camera, I’d be pretty disappointed.
I expect a photographer to carry Canon, Nikon or Sony A-Mount and a videographer to have a Sony F, FS or VG series camera. Sony AX1 is alright too. Panasonic GH4 is debatable.
On my wedding a photographer had 5DmkIII and a videographer had FS7. This is exactly what I consider a wedding worthy setup.
I guess I am a little different. I would rather have Matt Miller or Ross Harvey using an iphone at my wedding than some random person using a 5Dmk3. If I have seen the photographers work and know that I like it, I could care less how they accomplish it.
You example is kinda like assuming that because someone drives a Ferrari, that they must be a good driver.
That i agree on as well, i always look at photographer’s work before commiting. No matter how famous a photographer is, lots of shots will be missted due to the nature of mirrorless cameras. Thats the entire point i’m trying to make. I simply believe that a mirrorless camera AF isnt powerful enough for poor light weddings and sports.
Sure, one may use film and manual AF as well, but i’m not paying big bucks to get 100 pictures out of the entire day, out of which 5 are going to be great.
A7r is a dog in a wedding scenario. It is slow, hunts indefinitely, and has bad flash system.
Please share your recent work with a7 – I am very interested, but was unimpressed with the system.
Here’s my portfolio http://www.KeeperExpert.com
A7r focuses very slowly in dim light. Additionally, a flash system makes a difference. So no, my A7ii is not getting close in reliability and performance when it comes to events compared to the pro Nikon bodies. I would (right now) not rely on it. Maybe the A7rii is able to change it. But 40% better performance than A7r as advertised will still make it hard.
That IS competition. Cannon has some ground to make up on the sensor department. They have a competitor in Sony that is pushing them harder than Nikon has in the recent past. They have some ground to make up on sensor, which they will at some point, or make innovations elsewhere to keep themselves relevant. All of this pushes those companies to make those innovations, and we get better technology faster because of it.
I would say that Nikon has been pushing them for at least as long as they have been using Sony Sensors. Since the advent of the D4/D800 almost 4 years ago that Nikon as been the leader in IQ
CaNikon’s mammoth sales lead is the competition. Sony has to continue to push innovation because they’re trying to increase sales and eat into CaNikon’s market share.
Also, the sky is blue.
Canon have been far behind in sensor quality for a long time now.
Can’t wait when they re-rest all Canon glass on this crazy high-res sensor.
on this poor high-res sensor. Yes, I really hope at least in glass Canon still can be on par with Zeiss glass. Hopefully.
For a resolution test or any kind of studio shot you don’t need go higher than ISO 100, so not sure what’s the problem here… The comparison with Zeiss is unnecessary. Zeiss doesn’t make anything longer than 135mm nor wider than 15mm.
http://petapixel.com/2012/04/29/a-look-back-massive-carl-zeiss-lens-from-photokina-2006/
Fanboys are attacking you because DXO’s scores are pretty meaningless. You and other bloggers should start posting the charts, which are objective and informative.
this is turning into iphone vs android/samsung phones kinda debate. very emotional and not much objectivity.
Isn’t SAR older than android?
If you’re a professional agency staffer, then there is no better camera than a 5D3, it’s bullet-proof with the best glass and the very best of professional service backing you up via CPS. If you’re a multi-media journalist, then its a SONY A7S or RX10 with the superb balanced audio accessories via the MI Shoe. If your thing is chart reading, occasional photography, or you’re a retired scientist who now blogs about such things, then come to us, we’ll sell you a “chart-topping” D810. Our NPS service is OK for you two (or three) blindly loyal customers on this board!
5d3 vs D750 – come on now.
We have had serious issues with our D750; build quality and quality control are sadly lacking on this model, please seek DPReview.com for clarification.
Funny post. Nikon’s quality control issues have kept me away from their system. Nikon’s cameras have been spotty in the past several years. First oil spots with the D600 then Hot / “bright” spots on the D810. When I pay $ 2,000 – 3,500 for a camera, I expect reasonable performance without overt flaws. Sony’s cutting edge sensors and all the DXO charts in the world can’t change the fact that Nikon doesn’t mind selling its mid-range DSLR customers lemons from time to time. Until that changes, I will stick with Sony and Canon.
Lens variance on lens rentals, continued.
This sounds ominous for general photography with ANY camera…
http://www.redsharknews.com/business/item/2708-europe%E2%80%99s-latest-copyright-proposals-threaten-catastrophe
Get out of EU? lol
Incidentally my whole approach attempts to address the problem of limited access to high quality images; to become really great at making them and offer a variety of image products and in different forms of distribution etc. That’s also why i’m quite open about it, by getting ahead and staying ahead, making the process as simple and effective as possible will give me competitive advantage and raise awareness the greatest 🙂
No strings, but relative cost for work done and so on, so some works will be expensive of course, and I will try and pull up the level of stock and general photography way above all competition and sources while if possible making accessible to all, and a lot of it!
That’s why I must have a small cam and really effective system, its the first principle of efficiency, reduce any wasted effort as it were.
I mean literally, Sony says about their camera system ‘Resolution AND sensitivity’, I say about my work, ‘Quality AND Variety’.
I have one thing to resolve however, the way its going, I need a lot of collaborators, and effectively under the umbrella, a bit like resident evil :I but without the evil and with as much self interest as possible, its just the way its going so far…and avoiding zombies…
Some kind of more global side? because if i haven’t mentioned much, its all about the local area (wiide), and manifesting something really special there, then building links. (super secret is quite simply to redirect all traffic from London for the particular interests XD and elsewhere too)
Global traffic :I Ha ha, and why not? I’m fusing it with tourism as it were.
An interesting thing, maybe not so meaningful, but if you check out traffic for english worded names online you often find US composes a lot of that, but the UK composes some too, depending on the particular interest it can be as high as above a quarter even- when balanced out with what the traffic is worth, and the population of UK is 1/5 of US
So that’s more traffic and potential purchases, what I’m doing is focusing on the local and can be assured the global will be high too, as that was my point of entry into interest in any particular thing 🙂
I would like to do something else too, and its more subtle, but to forge some links with for instance Japan, because the culture is quite apart from say UK and would be the only authentic way to work with subjects related to Japan. So in fact shall I just put them together and this is by no means the main or only thing, its one thing among many but i’m curious to see how Japanese fashion can be fused with UK fashion and with US retro kind of fashion because they commonly reference one another, in fact period dress is one of my interests, all this and I’ve never studied fashion before or followed it ha ha
So, that’s a few blogging links or something and also people resident locally for authenticity who happen to be interested in that kind of thing. Its silly to talk about that before all the context! or is it, i don’t know anymore lol
well….I would like to see period style return :I and manifest and happen as it were,
and i believe that requires some authenticity, some fusion of disparate versions already manifest and close reference to actual period things.
Geez, now I understand why some of your comments may have been deleted.
Do you really think that anyone else reads such a long, rambling post? You claim to be “English and English speaking”, yet the comment above is rife with simple grammar errors, lack of capitalization and proper punctuation, and full of emoticons and social networking acronyms. As a former English teacher in a foreign country, I doubt that English is your native language (meaning that you are not ‘English’) – unless you didn’t care enough about your audience to proofread your manifesto even once.
You obviously have some passion for the subject. I suggest you focus it on actually taking photos. If you choose to continue to write about photography, you need to post-process your writing equally as much as you post-process your photos. Otherwise, nobody will pay attention to it.
‘Blame Bush! Bush’s fault!’
You are that photographer who shoots jumping jacks aren’t you, you are far too racist towards whites for me to ever talk to you. And latins. Because you are american aren’t you. A real player, one who just might threaten my already perilous situation you created. Or not, you are racist, don’t post on non american shared forums.
‘And it’s not irrational fear of hispanic immigration. That illegal immigration is happening now – the southern border is wide open. Who will those illegal (and soon to be legal, if Obama has his way) immigrants take jobs from? Upper-middle class whites? College liberals working at hipster coffee shops? Educated college grads working in silicon valley software houses? Heck no. They’ll be taking jobs from young black minimum-wage men and women trying to get a foothold into the labor force.’
Why do you care? We aren’t that bad huh? Ironic isn’t it. Ignorant aren’t you all. And I suppose partners and families of these ‘stealers’ are particularly ripe for your negative endorsement also? Hey why not add a few arbitrary americanisms denigrating women of various ethnicities, or just like someone posted on one of your other tours, ‘your great lie’ Didn’t you go to church? Don’t you know that makes you the devil-the enemy? Is that where civil rights in america went wrong?
Is THAT why Erykah Badu visited King Mswati III? because being part of your group you don’t even like her? keep your hands of our women and learn to love your own. And obviously don’t mess with the English.
Real masters don’t stand for positive discrimination.
Illuminated Observer, I have to admit that I only skimmed that flight of ideas you posted – but that was one random flight of ideas! I can’t even tell what side of the issue you are on! Strike that – I can’t tell what issue you are even writing about! Are those quotes from the “ExPat_in_Krakow”?
That was a quote directly from ExPat whose actual persona had itself been put into quotation marks. No flight, just master detective work.
Interesting upvoter you have too:
Shannon Martin Guest 6 hours ago
At a minimum, you are a Breatharian
Without that there is nothing, even for you
Shannon Martin a day ago
Her career is well grounded
The tomato picking illegals will pay many pesos to be with her,
even more if she shuts up
There is a tent in a field near Fresno waiting
Line forming already
targeting me with such as this person? i really do need those new friends and to show everyone at least something of what you do.
To be fair I wouldn’t have thought anyone outside of UK was involved nor a photographer in my domain with an ignorant bigoted proof of what I myself have been struggling a little to believe about what you represent and could have been doing.
Illuminated Observer, I feel like you are really excited about things you think you are finding on the internet but no one is able to follow your train of thought!
Who is Shannon Martin? Are you Shannon Martin? Does anyone care about Shannon Martin? Why does anyone care about Shannon Martin? Is Shannon Martin even a real person? Does Shannon Martin only talk/appear to you?
I love that you were able to work Breatharians into a thread about DXO scores, however. Keep doing your part to keep Sony Alpha Rumors’ comments section the most bizarre.
Brief Summary of the Photography News/Rumor Sites:
1) Canon Rumors / Canon Watch: few if any comments = the Canon
users are out taking pictures on their poor outdated sensors.
2) Nikon Rumors: Just really mean comments when anyone writes a
guest post that includes their own pictures = Nikon users are mean, but you would be too if you had oil spots on your D600 and Hot / “bright” spots on your D810.
3) Sony Alpha Rumors: Craziest posts on the net! = Draw your own
conclusions…
Mexicans=not same as illegal immigrants
Source, one program, presumably a youtube video, some time ago.
latterly interest in chola? is that what this is about now? setting me up.
No need, its more basic than that, my netflix suggests ‘films with strong female leads’ and such like. Nothing suspect about it. I am honest and direct, I even spoke about chola didn’t I, so what are you doing?
You are hilarious! Just when I think your about to fling poo, you bite a kitten instead! Totally off the wall!
Not really, its a fashion, and this was before i got into photography, in fact it makes a lot of sense, its you who doesn’t. Fact is, there’s a link between mexican too isn’t there, one ONLY I seemed to know of, I convinced myself looking at racially averaged images and guessed, who would have thought? It was flattering because i really like the look and surprise surprise. Instinct you lack. And you can bet some people aren’t going to let you take all other forms of control either. there was even an explicit clue noone might have thought of. In that sense I am somewhat interested in mexican/latin culture, its something I want to research more, particularly music wise. My favourite music just might be latin. And I really like music.
I feel like you’re going to try to track me down and eat my organs (please don’t by the way). I taste terrible and have probably soaked up lots of toxic chemicals over the years… It wouldn’t be good for your health.
All that considered, I have to ask: who brought up “Mexicans”???
You: 12 comments including these, you got upvoted by a christian? who quoted something about politics/immigration as if saying it themselves.
Final thought: Sony Alpha Rumors = Craziest posts on the net! = Awesome!
P.S. Seriously – don’t eat any one… even if someone you don’t like “upvoted”. It’s basically never okay to eat people.
You threatened me with lines in your posting now, nevermind all the flagging of my comments, one of you, who especially shouldn’t threatened me also. And people may have seen it too. Its like I said.
That one has an understanding with the very same police who did that to the other. Real smart, now leave my life alone and my interests.
I gave you good advice. If you want people to read your manifestos/diatribes/rambling posts/streams of conciousness, you’re out of luck.
You need to post-process your writing like a pro photographer post-processes his or her photos. Then people will read it. That’s good advice, and I stand by it.
You also wrote that you are ‘English and English speaking’, and I’ll stand by the fact that it is simply not true. It’s quite obvious that English is not your native language. I don’t care either way, it doesn’t matter – except that you lied about it. Any person who is ‘English’ is a native English speaker. An American might not be a native English speaker. But an Englishman or Englishwoman certainly would be. Maybe you emigrated to England and live there now, and you even got citizenship and identify yourself as English…but then you are being slightly disingenuous when you could simply admit that English is your 2nd or 3rd or 7th language.
As for the rest of your attacks, I couldn’t care less. You may indeed be an Illuminated Observer, but nobody will ever know it because you come across like a raving lunatic.
Why not get a megaphone and stand out in the park shouting?
Or, rather, you should be on the radio….so we could turn you off.
‘Blame Bush! Bush’s fault!’
You are that photographer who shoots jumping jacks aren’t you, you are far too racist towards whites for me to ever talk to you. And latins. Because you are american aren’t you. A real player, one who just might threaten my already perilous situation you created. Or not, you are racist, don’t post on non american shared forums.
‘And it’s not irrational fear of hispanic immigration. That illegal immigration is happening now – the southern border is wide open. Who will those illegal (and soon to be legal, if Obama has his way) immigrants take jobs from? Upper-middle class whites? College liberals working at hipster coffee shops? Educated college grads working in silicon valley software houses? Heck no. They’ll be taking jobs from young black minimum-wage men and women trying to get a foothold into the labor force.’
Why do you care? We aren’t that bad huh? Ironic isn’t it. Ignorant aren’t you all. And I suppose partners and families of these ‘stealers’ are particularly ripe for your negative endorsement also? Hey why not add a few arbitrary americanisms denigrating women of various ethnicities, or just like someone posted on one of your other tours, ‘your great lie’ Didn’t you go to church? Don’t you know that makes you the devil-the enemy? Is that where civil rights in america went wrong?
Is THAT why Erykah Badu visited King Mswati III? because being part of your group you don’t even like her? keep your hands off our women and learn to love your own. And obviously don’t mess with the English.
Real masters don’t stand for positive discrimination.
Google: krakow africa
AFRICAN STUDENTS INVASION in Krakow
^top of list
prague africa
–
liverpool africa
–
florence africa
–
Black? American? Bohemian? Africa? White slaves? Placeholder for the devonshire lorry watcher?
I understand why you were upvoted by:
1st time caller 14 days ago
A couple takeaways from the Jurgen article over at ussoccer.com linked above:
1.) If Jurgen thinks Chris Wondowlowski possesses grace under pressure, where was he when Wondo was doing this? http://thebiglead.com/2014/07/…
2.) why do Germans always misuse the English word “already.”?
=because its an americanism?
Kasey Keller is a dreadful color man. Loved him as a player, can’t stand him in the booth. Also, the sound of his voice and his meandering pointless sentences makes me want to slit my wrists.
=colour?
When your version of reality doesn’t match real data from the real world – just call into question that data. Is there another testing house that is better than DXO?
Que in the fanboys rage 😛
My fanboy 5000 is so much better then anything sony makes.
Canon users should stop lying to themselves to believe they have the best camera system.
10 years ago they had the best camera, now they don’t.
They probably don’t know because they haven’t touch other cameras in 10 years.
Canon users have to start accepting the reality.
Please show us your portfolio. We want to see what we are missing. You seem to be very happy.
Butthurt Canon user spotted 🙂
The 1d-x was arguably the best camera upon its release. Certainly it features the best AF system, has solid low light performance, great battery, build, ruggedness, excellent video quality and robust features & granular controls. It lacks great dynamic range. The a99 has fantastic DR, IBIS and a lot of features of convenience (face tracking, gps,) but it has woeful AF and it is a generally sluggish camera. I can take awful or amazing photos with both.
The best camera is unskilled or untalented hands is will not touch the results of a standard camera in the hands of a skilled photographer.
best AF system? LOL. Excellent video quality? LOL. It even has so-so low light performance by today’s standards. Time has changed you know.
The AF system continues to be top tier, to say otherwise is ignorant. The video quality in ALL-I mode is great and stands up to grading in post.
I have gotten over 700,000 shutter actuations out of mine and it is still firing away without issue. Yes time has changed, but the longer one uses a piece of good equipment, the more profitable it is.
Best upon release. That’s the first sentence and that 2011
You are confusing the words “camera” and “system”. Canon is lagging in the sensor technology, but the whole system is quite capable.
You are totally correct that Canon currently has a better system, and now the a7rii…better camera….can join that better system….Canon.
You no longer need to choose between a better camera and a better system.
🙂 Can’t disagree with that ^
theres the crappy MIS hotshoe
still better than old Minolta
You are obviously not a strobist. Minolta iISO was the most elegant mounting system ever created. We lost so much. Sony could have easily upgraded the iISO to accept their stupid microphone. They didn’t have to kill 20 years of smart legacy support.
I have to say as a Canon user for many years, the new Sonys are quite exciting. And the fact that my Canon glass is even MORE adaptable with the A7rii is fantastic. For a Canon user like myself, there is no reason I can’t run both systems (If I use lights…I always use Manual triggers anyway). I have tons of Canon L glass and only two get regular use. I could see a switch to Sony and use a couple Zeiss lenses as my bread and butter and pop on the Canons for those rare times. Plus I have a plethera of minolta Lenses from my Maxxum film system (a mount adaptor). I shoot still subjects (Commercial architectural), so lightening quick focus is not a requirement for me.
One other thing about focus. With my 5dii system and my eyes, I’m not entirely confident with my manual focus. 99% of the time I nail it. However, due to lack of confidence with my eyes, I always take a back up (auto focus) version. The EVF may be a godsend for my manual focusing.
one exception being flash systems
I actually no longer use flash…instead I use a Bescor led 180 portable led.
I handhold it eith one hand and hanhold my camera with the other hand for macro.
Unlike flash this gives me total control of my lighting and I instantly see exactly what it will look like in the camera.
Plus I can instantly move the light to adapt to moving subjects.
there are many third party TTL on or off camera flash system out there for sony,
just because you don’t know doesn’t mean they don’t exist
show me the high speed sync
do you know there’s a adapter for you to switch back to minolta flash?
Personally speaking, I moved from the Sony A99 over to a 5D3 & haven’t looked backed since – never had an issue with DR & not once has any client ever said “there’s not enough dynamic range in that picture”. For me, my next years kit bag will hopefully include a 5D4 to use as my workhorse due to handling, ergonomics etc. & an A7s2 (assuming it can properly AF with EF glass) for those times when I need a great low light camera….. DR doesn’t come into it for me.
Smart move…continue to use the equipment you enjoy and add the a7rii to your kit as just one more addition to your system.
Thats what i do
if you need a powerful body, fast focus, good choice of lens and flash system, AND PLUS, a good sensor. Nikon is your best choice
If you need compact and light body with multiple high tech functions and DSLR like image quality，Sony is the way to go.
Even Fuji, Pentax, olympus and panasonic have the best choices in their category
but I don’t see any system categories where canon can come on top.
Where’s the 50, 56 or 59 MP sensor for the A7r II?
do you really need that much res? what do you do photography wise that really needs that res?, otherwise I would think MF sized chips would probably be the better format to look at for that kind of res yeah ?.. just interested, bot having a go at you or anything
I shoot both Canon and Sony so I’m not a Canon fanboy in the least, but what exactly does “two thirds of a stop better image quality” mean? Since when did photographers measure image quality is “stops”? How much is exactly one “stop” of image quality? That doesn’t make sense.
I think a poor choice of words is at play here. A stop in Dynamic Range at base ISO gives the capability to push/pull highlights and shadows harder. Its essentially what was meant by image quality.
Sure, that is useful sometimes, when DR is very high and you risk burning shadows and blowing highlights at the same time, but most of the time, for cameras with EVF it doesnt matter, since you can make a correct exposure before taking an image, thus eliminating the need for such a DR range in 99% of cases.
So i’d say that it is more relevant in Nikon vs Canon, than it is for any camera with EVF
If you where truly shooting with both Sony and Canon you wold definitely feel the difference.
2,5 DR stops of DR translates in 6 times more DR for the Sony sensors compared to the best of what Canon can offer today (slightly more for older cameras like the 5D mark 3 and even more compared to 5D mark 2).
I worked for several years with Canon 5D mark 2, I sold it to a fried and I still edit pictures form it a couple of times per year and frankly it’s a fine camera but compared to Nikon D800 (witch I currently use for stills) the Canon is miles behind, especially in shadows noise and DR department. Everything is OK with the Canon until you start rising the shadows, with D800 there is no fear of strong contrast, difficult lightning etc. I have 0 brand loyalties, I shot with Canon for many years, now I’m using Nikon for pictures, Panasonic for videos and edit images from both Nikon, Canon and Panasonic from time to time.
So first off, yes, I do shoot both. I have a 5Dmk3 for photography and an A7s for all of my video work. And no, you definitely don’t feel a difference. I spent three weeks in Africa, and another two weeks in Mexico last year doing documentary work with both the A7s and the 5Dmk3. For images that are exposed correctly, you wouldn’t be able to tell what image was shot with what camera. The Sony does have the advantage for bringing up shadows in post, absolutely, but Canon certainly isn’t as much of a push over as people think. Please let me know if you’d like to see a gallery consisting of images from both cameras in multiple documentary setting and I’ll provide it you. You won’t be able to tell the difference.
Second thing, that doesn’t answer my questions. DxO said a “stop of image quality”. That does not make sense. Image quality is not measured in stops, dynamic range is. According to DxO, image quality, color sensitivity, and dynamic range are all measured in stops, which is incorrect. An image can not be “2/3 stop more clear”. It can not have “2/3 stop better quality”. It most certainly can have 2/3 stop better dynamic range.
My question is what does DxO mean by “2/3 stop better quality”. Do they mean it has better resolving power? If that’s the case, why not just say it that way?
Blip DXO final score, is flawed! Although the individual DR, noise and color scores are quite accurate (I find the same differences when editing files in LR).
And you are right, marching cameras nowadays is very easy, especially if you are using VSCO or a similar film emulation pack.
I don’t think you’d tell the difference between the two with the sun at your back in typical landscape situations. But have you tried difficult backlit situations. The difference is huge.
A7s is a key here: it is inferior to all other cameras with sony sensor quality-wise on lower ISOs. So, basically, you have no idea about how D810 or A7r ii perform.
A7s it’s inferior only regarding DR at low ISO to other Sony sensors.
Well, if you have no idea I will try to explain where it lacks:
1) Wide tonal range let you to show smooth gradient transitions. Here is almost 2 stops difference between A7s and A7r.
2) Wide DR let you to expose both dark and bright parts without losing much info. More than a stop difference.
etc
These are areas where cr@p video camera A7s is lacking compared to cameras with sensors tuned for photo.
its only 1 stop less then a d810/a7r.
at High ISO the a7s destroys both those cameras in DR.
That’s what I was saying!
Gotta say, you’re definitely wrong by me “having no idea”. I’ve edited about 20 weddings for other photos that have the D800 or D810, and compared to weddings I have shot in the 5Dmk3, I couldn’t tell a difference. Again, I don’t know many situations other than some landscape shots where I would pull +4 stops from the shadows.
Example: I’m in a group with 200 other professional photogs. They shoot either Canon or Nikon. None of them shoot Sony professionally for a reason. And when you look at their work, do you know what the biggest difference is? Post processing. You couldn’t tell if the image was shot with a 1dx, 5d3, D810, or any other camera.
People underestimate the power of understanding exposure.
Oftalmologist may be?
5d3 files are crap with horrible color separation at first, based on my experience.
Agree, it is incorrect to state that “two thirds of a stop better image quality” .
IMO, they should be more specific and shouldn’t count image quality in stop.
They can only say that
at ISO 100, 5Ds has 2 stop lower dynamic range.
at ISO 200, 5Ds has 1 stop lower dynamic range.
at ISO 400, 5Ds has 1/2 stop lower dynamic range.
at ISO 800, 5Ds has 1/3 stop lower dynamic range.
and 5Ds has 1 bit lower color sensitivity from ISO 100 ~ ISO 12800.
But “two thirds of a stop better image quality” is incorrect.
Because someone may don’t need the extra dynamic range or color sensitivity
and still can produce beautiful image.
It makes a lot of sense. 1 stop = 2 x the light. This means any landscape with high contrast situation would look much better.
one “stop” image quality means it got better tonal range, dynamic range, and clean signal ratio
more tonal range means it got more color levels to look smoother
more dynamic range means it saved more luminance info make it has more details in highlights and shadows
and clean signal ratio means the two factors above were less disturbed by noises, making them usable.
so they call it quality
the “quality” here refers to better sensor ability, not the final print. you may not need all these info to produce a “quality” final print, but thats different thing.
Admin, your title coming from Dxo or not- in being “far behind” is correct. Two stops DR behind *is far behind* Canon has been lagging Sony for a while now.
Not surprising. Canon is 1.5-2 sensor generations behind Sony and has now been for over 5+ years.
Canon’s sensor dynamic range and noise are not up to par.
For available light or super-high speed shooters (in non-studio settings) Sony sensors rule supreme.
i have a 5Diii and a A7s. And yes I love them both, use them both, it never bothered me that one is bulkier, one has less dynamic range, one does this, the other does that. Technology is so advanced that all top cameras are really, very good. What I like about the Canon is that it is so reliable, it always delivers. That camera is like a rock. 2 and a half stop less DR? Who cares. At the end of the day, it’s other things that matter what makes a great photo.
The debate here is just going irrational, canon fanboys will find every way to prove their camera is better.
DxO, DPR, and many other test Lab use scientific method to set comparison between cameras with measurements and calculations.
But Canon fanboys says, “well, we don’t believe that”
Then who should we trust on this? your canon-god-given eye? and your all mighty canon 5 years old sensor？
And then canon boys says “It doesn’t matter how well the sensor is, its the camera system that really matters”
Well, then why don’t you recommend Nikon which has the same level of comprehensive system AS WELL AS A BETTER SENSOR？
And then canon boy says, “you know, after all, the equipment doesn’t matter, it’s the photographer that really matters”
Well,I say you can end every “equipment quality debate” with this sentence. because we are in a discussion talking about “scythe and harvester machine which one is more convenient to use” but canon fanboys says, well, no matter what, you need a person to operate them anyway
LOL
So true. I never choose Canon as a camera system from the first place is because of their overly arrogant and dubiously exaggerated optimism on their brand.
I have many photography friends and here is the scenario. The Canons are like the douche bag with unfold collar and are like sweaty all the time, ranting how Sony sucks and theirs are much more superior. While the Nikons are much more friendly, don’t really criticize much and prefer do more shootings rather than ranting. As for Sony, since I’m the early adopters of Sony camera (From the Cybershot era to the first Alpha), I have silently convince many of my friend to get a Sony and sometimes jump ship from Canikon.
Canon extremist fanboys always gives me the disgusting feel. It is more like an occult whereby they’re childish most of the time and are so naively incompetent that they loose contact with reality. They will deny everything except canon and to be honest, they’re like a bunch of wildebeest.
I remember I have many occasion when people visited my FB/DA gallery and compliment me and then ask me whether I shot canon, but when I say I shot Sony, they’re like stay silent, then I know he is a canon fanboy.
This is the truth behind all canon fanboyism. They’re insecure bunch of unsophisticated hostile individuals who only have canon loyalty as their goal in life, nothing else. That’s why I pity them and hope they won’t be lonely when they gets old…
Wow this is the best summary / illustration of my experience as well! 🙂
They feel the need to convince themselves that the massive amount they paid isn’t for anything but the best. I mean £1430 for a crop sensor Canon 7D2 body only? Wow yeah I’d be upset if I bought that and someone said it’s not the best lol 🙂
IKR~? But I guess we mustn’t waste our time on them, we can always reply “Yeah, right… as long it reliefs your mental disorder.” on those harsh Canon fanboy comment and save use those quality time on something else~
What a strange debate! There are thousands of comments about 5DS vs. D810 vs. A7RII in the net. Besides that one of those three didn’t hit the market yet, all are excelent cameras. Not any of these is better than the others. It’s just a tool and most is still by the photographer.
And even if the A7RII will set some new standards or the sensor of the canon is still not the best but leading in Megapix, maybe nikon will find an answer in two years with having an organic sensor that doubles the dynamic range.
Does that change anything? No, their flagships are all excellent and in 99% of the pictures you will make, it’s just a matter of preference.
have seen some sample in real life of 5DS, its images are pretty striking in quality, dun think Canon is that poor.
For me the biggest improvement of new HS is simply the ISO-compatibility. Now I can use any flash from Canon, Nikon, cheap Yongnou…. any… – except Minolta.
I don’t get why the old Minolta mount should have advantages over standard ISO + (Canikon)-Extensions.
While I am not a Sony or Canon user, and I agree that Canon needs to increase the dynamic range in its sensors, it is amazing how much people try to justify whichever brand they use. While Sony produces some very nice sensors, they don’t use those sensors to their fullest in their own cameras, so they are flawed to an extent as well. However, if one understands exposure and is a decent photographer, he or she can take very nice photos with any camera available today.
While Sony lovers continue to bash others, claiming that Sony is killing this or that, whenever I look at Sony A7 Series photos on Flickr or 500px, I don’t see photos that support that claim. So, with whatever camera one uses, the most important thing is the photographer. I am sure there are some photographers taking great shots with Sony cameras, but I haven’t seen any images from Sony cameras that have convinced me that the Sony A7 Series is killing anything.
Hopefully people will stop yelping about nonsense and instead enjoy taking photos with whatever camera they have.
Really? What have your issues been? Have you notified Nikon?
Our repair department has been swamped with misaligned D750 auto-focus sensors. We are NIKON, resistance is futile!
Surprising – I have not heard the hoards of Nikon customers complaining – only you.
Not many shots on Flickr or 500px from our flagship D4 or the Df either. Oh crap, what camera should we push for the next Olympic Games? Don’t say the D810, our pro shooters hate the viewfinder and poor lowlight performance (comparatively speaking of course).
First of all, let me say that I WAS a Canon shooter and switched to Sony, but I kept my 5D Mark III for more than 6 months before I completely cut the cord. Secondly, I agree that the skill of the photographer can, to a degree, make a bigger difference in an image than the quality of the sensor. Here is something that IS INDISPUTABLE. Even if the sensors were all rated equally, Sony is doing it in a smaller, lighter and less expensive body with more technological features than Canon 5Ds, or even the Nikon D810 (which has the same Sony sensor). THAT is quantifiable data that can NOT be disputed. To the Canon fanboys, if you are taking photos with an iPhone or a Samsung, YOU probably ARE using a Sony sensor. Until you put down your DSLR and shoot for a while with an A7 II, an A6000 or the upcoming A7r II, you have NO idea what you are missing. So, quit whining about lab tests and concentrate on your photography skills, and keep you Canon gear, IF you are happy. A great camera in the hands of a bad photographer won’t guarantee great results. Google the term Unconscious Incompetence from the 4 Stages of Competence. The majority of us know less than we realize about photography.
Ok jus for Sony fans: Sony IS THE BEST SYSTEM – not. I could care less. I’d be butthurt if it pinched my pride. The statement about the Sony system is completely the opposite. I shot with both. Sony failed at delivering a working system (a99 was their best offering at the time: messed up AF, ridiculously slow operation, delayed shutter response, non existent flash system and overheating flashes, poor battery life – everything I rely on working at events) Butthurt Sony user I was until I tried 5dmk3, 70-200mm F2.8 that can track and lock focus fast on moving objects in low light, fantastic radio flashes – Have You Shot with both to tell the difference? Show us your work maestro!
Here’s your BEST SYSTEM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enZlDDGt6SE
Here’s your system explained to you Sony shooters – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enZlDDGt6SE
That’s one of our bestest customers right there. He cannot get through his torrid review complaining about the little Sony without mentioning the D810 boat anchor back related injury TWICE, and not see the irony in it all. We love customers like you, no new Nikon mirrorless system for you this decade!
Even my rather old and cheap Sony A7 scores better than the Canon 5Ds by this
company, which is rather ridiculous. I also have a Canon 100d which
feels much more like a camera than the A7, especially the viewfinder and
how the camera responds. I think the picture quality is much the same
or even better on the 100d. Then, I look at the pictures and not the
numbers. So what is all this about?
do you retouch your RAW file？
do you print more than 8in？
do you see pictures outside Instagram？
if no, then even Phase One IQ280 won’t make any difference than your iPhone
if yes, I guarantee you will realize how much difference these numbers indicate
I use RAW and lightroom to edit selected pictures, and in that case I may also study them in full resolution on my screen. I find the quality similar, especially when I look at the pictures in “full screen” (21-24″). I usually do not print any pictures and I have not done any A/B testing. My mobile of course gives far worse results.
With Sony and others (Pentax introducing FF system soon), Canon (and Nikon) will have to kick up their innovation and advances. Competition is great for the industry. In a prior life before becoming a pro photographer, I managed GM supplier plants. Every year GM would show off some great new tech or feature every year. Many of us would be like “toyota, Honda and others…did this 5 years ago”. We all know how the story unfolded at GM.
Canon is a great camera and I probably will never fully switch unless the 5DIV and 1DXii are dogs (which they probably will not be). I am getting an A7rii though.
I don’t see Canon turning into GM anytime soon. However, I think the Sony advances is a wake up call. If it isn’t, institutional arrogance will kill them.
I agree with you overall. However, we shouldn’t underestimate Nikon. It is the D810 which stands out in these DxO tests. Even better results than Sony, using the same sensor.
URLs supporting the Author’s point:
Press Release: http://www.sony.com/en_us/SCA/company-news/press-releases/sony-electronics/2015/sonys-new-a7r-ii-camera-delivers-innovative-imagin.html?icid=pr-newswire-feed
DxO Webpage of Result’s Graphs and Charts: http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Canon-5DS-5DS-R-Review-New-top-ranking-Canon-EOS-sensor/Canon-5DS-5DS-R-Comparison-3-EOS-5DS-vs-Nikon-D810-vs-Sony-A7R
its 2 stops less actually
the 5d3 has greater AF tracking