Yesterday Phase One launched the new XF 100MP back (article here). The sensor is made by Sony and first SAR readers worked on the 300+(!) megapixel TIFF files (article here). The image quality you get is impressive. This is now the world’s best digital system camera you can buy!
So the question arises if Sony will ever make a medium format RX camera with such a sensor. The advantages for Sony and us would be:
– Sony would explore a new “virgin” territory (first fixed lens digital medium format)
– Sony could make the most compact digital medium format camera yet. Something we can really use for reportage and travel photography. The current medium format cameras are more suited for landscape use.
– Sony could sell the camera at a less crazy sub $10,000 price. It would be a completely different camera than the Phase One and certainly not compete against it (not interchangeable, not primarily made for studio and landscape photography)
Now imagine Sony announcing such a camera. Below you can see an imaginary RX medium format camera designed by SAR reader S
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Question:
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P.S.: You can see the new XF100MP back for real in Los Angeles! More info at digitaltransitions.com.
P.P.S.: Feel free to send me some cool medium format camera designs at sonyalpharumors@gmail.com 🙂
90 Responses
If it had a fixed 80mm Zeiss Planar F2 it would be unstoppable. Some of those Contax 645/Fuji 400H shooters might even stop shooting film! (and embrace digital!)
Ah, you get this stuff!!! 🙂
Ff ilc 100mp..yes
Mf..no interest for
Sony will probably make mf sensors for everyone, so it makes no sense for them to make a mf camera.
Yes, if they can keep the price below $7k and slightly larger body size than current RX1.
That kind of resolution is actually made for studio or landscape, not really for street or other purposes. I would love to have a MF camera but not at that price. It would prohibit me to explore photography seriously even if I could afford it.
Yeah, at that level of resolution it’d be pretty hard to shoot w/o a flash or tripod, I would think.
They could probably bring the 50 MP. smaller sensor. camera in for under $10,000 not sure they could do it with the new 100MP sensor. I would expect a nice 55mm lens to have a similar image view to the 35mm FF. Really depends on how much of a price jump there is in sensor cost.
Doesn’t make any sense, you need a tripod to make full use of MF and all that resolution
The on sensor resolution is lower than most APS-C cameras, it would be about 216 pixels per mm for the MF sensor being discussed, A D800 is about 205 pixels per mm, the new Sony A7RII does in at 221 pixels per mm. Yes, you may want a higher shutter speed than for a 12 MP FF, but certainly doable. Getting a lens with the resolution across the frame with the image circle required may be a bit expensive. If the camera had electronic first curtain shutter, assuming the weight is not too large, hand holding would be very doable.
“The on sensor resolution is lower than most APS-C cameras, it would be about 216 pixels per mm for the MF sensor being discussed”
Angular shake (the primary cause of handheld blur) does not care how big your sensor and pixels are, only how many pixels you have (due to longer FLs used for the same angle of view with bigger sensors, so the same angle of shake produces higher linear image shift on the bigger sensors with the lens of the same AoV).
This is wrong. If you are talking about the number of pixels affected by shake, then yes. But if you are talking about angle it makes no difference whether you have 12MP or 100MP.
But the same angle which does not matter on 12MP (say, covering half the row of pixels) matters a lot on 100MP if you are going to achieve that resolution.
For the same output the angle of shake / movement is the same.
If you don’t need 100 mpix. Otherwise, you simply cannot get the same output out of 12.
Well that depends on a lot of factors, point is it isn’t impossible to handhold and still get very effective images. I certainly have zero issues hand holding 42MP 135 and getting tack sharp images, with a roughly 50% resolution increase on X and Y I can’t see that changing that much.
You are right though, it depends solely on the degree of shake, not the pixel density.
LOL
If it’s going to be the most compact Medium Format camera – i.e. DSLR size – then I would rather like to see a 40-50MP sensor with good low light performance and burst speed.
If they could put it in aA99 body, YES
A pixel-size of the A7s series would be more interesting, and would be good enough for billboard printing.
would be like ~36mp with that same pitch?
Between 33-40.
MF in sony is ground breaking, and most voted for it . if sony dare doing it than in five years time one could buy it as the a7rii today . so why not . by than everything like memory cards , downloads speed , laptops, wifi, they all will be suitable and not expensive , Sony will really become the leader of world photography .
If SONY wants to become a leader, it needs to focus on consumer cameras and not on extremely narrow MF market. How many MF cameras will be sold per year? Very few.
I loved my old Bronica ETRS and I would love an affordable Sony 645!
Sure, but so many comments here indicate people think that somehow Sony, or Fuji before the Sony rumors, would somehow beat Pentax on price. They won’t. It’ll still be very expensive and aimed at professionals, though hopefully working wedding professionals as that market is still underserved by medium format. I’m not sure a fixed lens MFD makes any sense either. Who wants more than what the RX1RII already delivers in a fixed lens?
You should keep in mind the A6000 is already better value than Pentax APS-C pricing. So Sony definitely could beat Pentax in pricing. It’s a flexibility option they have since they are in the privileged position of owning most of the sensor production facilities.
And I actually think the people who can afford the RX1 cameras could also afford a specialty niche item like a medium format RX camera. It would resonate just fine.
I would love a 6×4.5 sensor at 50Mp in a SLR body. That would equal the resolution of the finest grain films.
I would however hate waiting for overpriced and underperforming lenses.
A good fixed zoomlens for this wouldn’t quite work within the boundaries of the concept.
But… if I had infinit money, I’d buy anything just because.
I think a little thing called physics would get in the way of it being compact and still delivering anything near 100MP/16-bit.
I imagine the camera could conceivably be slightly smaller than a Fuji ga645, which would make it not much bigger than a DSLR, but the lens would be need to be f4 to keep the size down and quality high.
Wouldn’t the chip cost at least $10k, and an Otus level lens even at f4 would be $3k+?
I’d be more interested in an upgraded 12 or 16MP chip from the A7s series paired with the RX1 body style.
From you comment it can be deduced that Pentax is a charitable company LOL.
I don’t understand what you are referring to. Could you explain?
“Wouldn’t the chip cost at least $10k”, with this sentence can be deduced that Pentax makes absolutely no money from it’s MF cameras, hence it may be a charitable company or something… 🙂
But Pentax isn’t using this chip.
Phase is taking orders at ~$49k shipped.
The chip in the Pentax 645z is the same one from the IQ250 and it shipped for $35k initially.
After Sony makes back the initial investment and assuming the manufacturing yields are high enough you could see prices drop on these to the point Pentax could put them in a $7k body.
I think they have enough time to draw up some new lenses to go with it.
I like that a7s sensor rx1 idea.
Why? At least you can crop from 42mpix is you need longer effective FL.
That makes zero business sense right now; Sony needs to stay focused on FF (the a7 Series) right now.
If, years down the road, Sony dominates FF photography with the e-mount a7 and a9 Series, then they could potentially look at some virgin territory in MF.
As for now… STAY FOCUSED on the current game. The Sony a7 Series is amazing, but it hasn’t taken over CaNikon yet.
Listen up, Sony! I HAVE the money to spend. Give us a robust medium format camera that many of us demand, and we will buy it!
entitled 1% gonna entitle, sorry there’s no pill for that -.-
Ha! Entitled? Sorry, comrade but you are barking up the wrong tree. I worked my butt off and retired at age 42, and then started a pretty successful photography business. I choose to put my money towards gear that I know will pay for itself sooner or later. I purchased a complete drone kit last year, and after getting my FAA approval, it paid for itself after three jobs, so the rest is just gravy. Do you perhaps need some sound business advice, or do you prefer to remain where you are and cast disparaging remarks at people you don’t know?
got enough cash for the new (and likely ridiculously expensive) lenses you would need to go with that? 😉
I would probably just need two lenses. I want a seriously wide angle rig for landscapes, and a nice portrait lens for commercial work.
Seriously? No.
I’d like to see a mirrorless MF camera much like the Phase One A series but at the price of the Pentax :D… it does not have to be 100Mp
Of course I need 100MP. Photos of my cat will look so detailed!
Think of the bokeh you would get if they paired it with an f1.2 lens
F/0.95, actually.
I want the tip of one whisker in focus and I want it sharp as eff.
The 80mm Zeiss lens for the Contax 645 is a stunning lens, so put this on an RX body and I would be tempted, even better have interchangeable lenses give me a decent 50, 80 & 150 and you would have a great set up, but its unlikely to happen and Fuji will be doing it later this year or next year
I agree a smaller classic camera set up with a wide angle, standard and portrait lens would be great I would like to see the same Multiple exposure system and HDR set up that the Pentax 645Z uses or similar that writes the completed file to RAW. Opening the lens mount like the 7 series cameras so other medium format glass could be used easily via adaptors might just be the killer blow. It would be so nice to have a more compact system with 50 – 100MP medium format quality, I am sure many landscape/wedding/street photographers would make great use of such a system as would I.
The resolution isn’t as important for me as having a ‘bare sensor’ that can be used on a camera with movements such as a Cambo Actus or Cambo Wide DS with tilt adapter and rodenstock lenses… It’s the lenses and movements that are important for creative control and for making the most of increased resolution. I’ve tried the Sony 250 on the Wide DS with a 50mm Rodenstock and the tilting adapter and MY GOD what a fantastic combination 😀
Yes, absolutely. It should be a loss-leader product and one that has that’s about the size of that under-powered Leica SL. Just do it Sony!
A loss-leader on a fixed lens camera makes zero financial sense.
Think about it a little deeper………I’ll help you. Why would a loss leader on a Prius make sense for Toyota?
Sony would be better off updating their aps-c lineup. A6000 – a old camera (by Sony standards) is still selling like hot cakes. They should release a high end aps-c and low end (with evf) cams with updated techs and release fixed lens aps-c rx cams to compete Fiji
It will sell if its even 12k in pricing, a lot of people bought a 1dc
To whom? Certainly not to the same people who buy Canon 1D and Nikon
Dx series. Who can earn money from 100mpix with wide dark fixed FL lens,
and slow shooting (files are huge)? With portrait or sport FLs, it
would not be compact. As with a zoom, or any fast lens. Who would earn a
cent more with it than with RX1rII (and even that is not quite for
pros)?
1DC was the only 4k “internal recording” DSLR at the time, so for those early adopters it was worth it (i guess, I’m not one of them). look at the price of the 1DC now.
lol at the pop up flash button lololol
Not uncommon on fixed lens MF on the film era.
But I did another one with more of the original A7 dials and buttons, I always liked that design.
Waste $10K to have just one lens glued to it. At the compact size, only a dark prime, not even a zoom adding some flexibility. Outdated in 2-3 years. What a great idea.
other are making an 8×10 sensor so why not http://www.largesense.com/products/8×10-large-format-digital-back-ls911/
For some reason both the upcoming products have very low pixel counts, IMO the pixel counts need to triple for them to be useful since size is already a hindrance.
What I had in mind is more like a RX645s than an “R”.
Same pixel size as the A7s, so the camera would have around 36-42mp, the files would be good enough for printing with the low light capability, and wouldn’t require a massive hardware.
That way the lens wouldn’t have to be fast too.
No. At that price, I want to use multiple lenses.
One great feature with MF is you can hold it in your hands, not pinch it with your fingertips.
An Rx is the opposite, some itty bitty camera.
No thanks.
New A99 II please.
Ever held a xf body? I have… dont want to shoot that unless I have to.
Did you forgot the RX10?
And the camera should have the same dimensions as a Bronica RF645
145x107x64mm
Canon 5D for reference.
http://i.imgur.com/b3Ca5bE.jpg
Well, a Nikon D4 and a Sony rx1 have the same sensor size, yet drastically different body sizes.
16mpx 56x56mm2 sensor with fixed 80mm lens and for USD 5000 it would sell plentiful!
Okay this is a badly thought out poll. Since you’re asking the same type of people who would never buy an RX1 to begin with, you will naturally get no for an answer.
But if the poll asked the current owners of the RX1 series, the result would be more nuanced. Because people who can afford the RX1 can also afford such a theoretical Fixed Lens medium format camera.
good one! your rx1 is $3000 and your next cam will be $50000? for sure
Sony would be able to ask a lot less than Phase One for such a camera. They have an advantage because they manufacture those medium format sensors inside their own fabs, unlike Phase One who has to purchase them from Sony.
Well the Pentax 645 version of IQ250 is less than £10k for camera and sensor whereas just the sensor is £20k (or was when they came out). So I imagine they could sell the sensor in a camera for about the same price. There is probably a year exclusivity deal though (like the 36mp sensor that Sony sold to Nikon)
The admin is asking $10000 or below, unless the poll has been altered.
What ever happened with that ‘digital Mamiya 7’ rumor from a while back? Just hot air?
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr3-more-tidbits-on-the-medium-format-sony-close-to-mamiya-7/
Only with an 80 mm ( 50 mm equiv. )
YES YES YES! but please with interchangeable lenses and revived zeiss 645 lenses from the contax 645!!!!
Did i say YES!!!! ?
Yes… you did.
I doubt it will happen, I would say Sony is producing these medium format sensors for customers only. If Sony undercut them by producing a cheaper alternative then it would be bad for business. Even if limited by the RX format.
Funny the design (sides didn’t even get changed) is of the Bronica RF645. A beautiful camera.
That’s what I based on. I think the medium format range finder design much better for Digital cameras, the wide back area is perfect for a big LCD screen and controls.
from business point. not a good move for Sony. ITs better to sell the sensor to a already known camera manufacturer
Paying thousands for a fixed lens camera ? No thank you. It should come with interchangeable lenses !
Would they offer a PS4 if we buy their camera, like some retailers did with a free A7SII when you buy the FS7 camcorder?
Sony should rather exchange some of its technology to get some interesting in return like lossless 14bit cRaw ( like Fujifilm put on their X-Pro 2 : http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/and-now-the-very-full-x-pro-2-specs-got-leaked/ ) for their existing lines instead of developing a new one yet ;)…. unless Sony want to get a reputation of “hyperactive person” which is not a token of stability for customers…
sure Sony should, with Carl Zeiss prime lenses.
No, they should focus on a7 for now.
If it ere priced around $6k, sure (if i had that kind of money lol), but $10k? no thanks
There was a rumor that Sony might get together and make a rangefinder patterned after the Mamiya 6… With the comfort that Sony has with mirrorless cameras it would make sense to follow up and collaborate with Zeiss to make leaf shutter lenses. Maybe a niche market that is ready for exploiting. The way I see it they would be able to make a medium format camera the size of a full frame SLR that could flash sync at speeds that can be used in bright daylight. Yeah I would spend $10 Grand for that.