Image courtesy: 3D-Kraft.
The first test of the new Zeiss Otus 85mm lens on the Sony A7r has been published at 3D-Kraft (Click here). In eery short this is why in the reviewers mind this combo makes a lot of sense:
The Otus line was designed with full-frame DSLRs in mind and so you can get them in two versions: ZE model for Canon EF-mount and ZF.2 model for Nikon F-mount. Thinking of all the features supporting precise and comfortable manual focusing on Sony’s mirror less A7R with its exceptional 36 MP sensor, great EVF magnification, focus peaking etc., for me this combination makes even more sense…this is the perfect match and simply the best lens you can currently get in this focal length range. I saw several posts complaining about the price tag (about 4000 EUR including VAT), but if you compare it to a Leica Apo Summicron 50/2 ASPH or medium format lenses – and this is the league where it compares best – it looks like a bargain.
And seeing that Sony will release 50 Megapixel FF cameras in early 2015 this may be one of the few lenses that can get the most out of the new sensor.
Preorders:
BHphoto with Nikon mount (Click here) or Canon mount (Click here) version.
Adorama with Nikon mount (Click here) or Canon mount (Click here) version.
0 Responses
As an advocate of native mounts I always doubt that adapted lenses are a good choice; and certainly not for a highest end lens.
Guess I need to be proved wrong, as I am also interested in an adapted lens. 🙂
For sure I will not go for the Otus, but I’d like to own a TS lens, and the best I could afford would be the Canon 24/3.5 II. Anyone experience with that on a A7R?
I use adapted lenses from 12mm to 600mm on my a7r… and one of them was $2000 more than the price of new Otus 85, several years ago.
If you’re going to face issues with adapted lenses, it’s in the wide end since shorter focal lengths have very shallow depth of focus. My 12mm Voigtlander FF is on a cheap LTM lens to Leica M adapter which is then connected to a generic/ebay Leica M lens to Sony E helicoid adapter. If you know the latter type of thing, you know it’s no Novoflex and the tolerances more like Mopar-grade than NASA-grade. But I have never had any issues that the adapters can induce. I.e. no issues with lens flatness or focus to infinity. Mind you this is with two adapters… on the widest possible focal length for FF.
The adapter thing is overblown.
And yes… I use the TS-E 24/3.5L II on the a7r as well as the Nikon PC-E 24/3.5 (the new one). The Nikon one has a smaller image circle and it actually hard vignettes when rotated 45 degrees and tilted. The TS-E 24L II is an excellent lens and is a must have for landscapes at that focal length. Personally I like the TS-E 17L because it’s just a whole different beast… in a cooler way.
Thank you very much for your answer.
May I ask which adapter you are using for the Canon TS? The metabones Mk3 or 4?
Are pro filters usable on both, the 24 and 17mm Canon TS? (the Lee 100 system)
Dirk, There is a long thread here with plenty of samples:
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/51002-a7r-tse-17-24-color-shift-question.html
Thanks 🙂
“A7R with Canon TSE 17, how bad is the color shift (cross-talk)?”
Fear monger much or what! The TS-E 17 sits a mile away from the sensor pretty much like a 200mm telephoto. Sometimes I wonder what happened to the internet (I’m looking at ipads).
Not at all. That query directly stems from MF digital back use where it (“cross talk” and such) is all too common. The answers to that question and many more are provided in that thread.
That’s probably if you’re going off the recommended limit and it’s an issue that will very likely differ from sensor to sensor. And pretty much any lens will give such issues on a digital sensor if extreme movements are used.
No problem. I use the Metabones Mk III adapter… got it free with my a7r. I really haven’t experience any issues that the Mk IV aims to address… mostly because I keep the image circle centered when I use tilt. Even if you just shift, there’s no real issue but maybe next to a Mk IV one might see a difference.
I personally don’t use filters on the TS-17L but Lee has a 100mm filter adapter for the lens for $90 or so. The 24 takes filters straight.
Usually I would agree with your notion that adapters don’t degrade too much for the average user. But if I buy an Otus I want to have utmost quality at pixel level (epsc. when combined with upcoming 50MP or more). If one assumes tolerances of 0.0000127m (google research) for camera mounts and has an adapter with similar or worse tolerance + the lens mount tolerance, if you are unlucky all tolerances add up on one side. The lens will be off by an angle you can easily calculate. Compare that with the DOF in degrees/pixel, there can be indeed a shift noticeable, leading to non-optimal performance on the pixel level (Ming Thein commented on that issue and I believe him in that), the more so with higher and higher MP count. For most of us it is probably not an issue but for people really trying to get ultimate quality and paying lot’s of money for a lens like this, I can imagine it is. However, if I’m able to afford an Otus for use with adapter, I buy several Novoflex adapters in addition and pick the best one.
Keep in mind that for the Canon mount your are topped by 24 mpx sensor that don’t do justice to the lens anyway. So it’s an adapted lens for the Alpha 7s or a lens that outresolved the sensor for this mount.
The only proper way to use it actually is in Nikon mount with the D800e or D810.
True, therefore I suspect it to be only an issue for large MP counts and for certain lenses (Otii, 135/2 APO, …), if things turn out bad (possibly tolerances compensate in your favor).
Tbh the best proper use would be to use it on an A7S. Itll be damn sharp.
That’s was a joke, wasn’t it? 🙂
There’s no doubt that errors and tolerances can be measured at the absolute level but have you ever tried “free lensing”? If you have, you’d know what kinds of hairs we’re splitting here. I think your issue is the lack of experience.
If you believe the nay sayers on photo forums, no one would be shooting anything. I can’t count the number of times I’ve proven them wrong. When someone says there’s no issue after doing something, don’t come shooting it down especially when you haven’t done anything like that. Shoot with your camera instead 🙂
That’s not what I’m saying. From my simple calculations it is possible to see that there is an azimuthal shift, but only if things add up to worst case. I think, too, that it’s not an issue most of the time, but it could be. And with 50+MP sensors the possibility should be higher. For DiNA3 prints, no issue probably, for prints Ming Thein is doing, believe it is. It’s not like you spend 4000 Euros for getting quality with adapter, which a Sigma 50mm Art is delivering.
My 4×5 would have horrified you. The lens board could assume some nasty angles if I wanted it to. As I could do the same thing with the back … well have you thrown up yet?
Not yet, only comments like this may convince me to do so. Thanks for your nice reply.
Da nada.
Why wouldn’t you get a Metabones adapter (MK3 or MK4) with the ZE Otus? Those are so stiff, you barely can mount a lens. I’m using it with the 50mm f/1.2 L and 135 f/2 ZE – both lenses are quite heavy, and no wobbling at all. The adapter makes one whole piece with the lens.
It’s not about wobbling. Lenses can mount stiff on adapter and camera, but due to tolerances it is possible, that the lens is not parallel to the sensor plane anymore. The question is, how large need this tolerances to be in order for an effect to be seen? http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters
I wouldn’t be so sure that “any adapter sucks” as the author says. IMHO 10 microns is nothing compare to just a tiny tilt when you mount a heavy (Otus-like) lens directly on the camera and won’t give the lens a proper support.
“What Does It Mean in the Real World?
Like a lot of laboratory testing, probably not a lot.” – that’s a good conclusion worth spending lots of hours playing with the optical bench 🙂 Just buy a nice name-brand adapter and enjoy the lens.
For most uses I agree with you. As the lens rentals guy concludes, its effect is small and mainly seen in the border/corner region, if at all. My point is only that when spending 4000 Euro for a lens I want to make sure it works perfectly and achieves 100% of what is possible. If its performance is degraded by adaptors with higher and higher MP sensors it could result in a performance not justifying spending this amount any more. Before, I only related it to shorter focal lengths: Diglloyd:”“Why short focal lengths? Because the percentage error for any fixed alignment error is much larger. My experience has been that 50mm on up is the safe zone, with 35mm on down becoming more and more sensitive to alignment errors (that’s on full-frame DSLRs).”
But the Otii are so sharp (the 85 almost maxes out the 36MP sensor’s sharpness without AA filter), that small errors should be more detectable compared to other lenses. I don’t have a problem with it since I don’t buy lenses that expensive. Didn’t want to attack people using adapters, too.
I published a post on the 17mm TS-E on the A7R (and even on the Leica M9/MM) here at Steve Huff:
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2014/02/03/the-sony-a7r-with-canon-17mm4-ts-e-architecture-dream-team/
the album with more of my images are here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dierktopp/sets/72157633127554716/
I use the Metabones III
omg 15th rumor/news about the Otus this week…Admin, generally youre doing a great work, but this obsession with the Otus is ridiculous. Its not a native A or E mount..so why soooo many posts about it???
You could just as well bring the news about the new fuji 56/1.2 EPO 😀 (Since fuji brought what many sony users have been wondering about..an STF lens with AF)
Hi Peppe. Here are just a few reasons:
1) E-mount owners can use this lens on their camera.
2) The lens works better on E-mount cameras than on Canon/Nikon because of EVF magnification, focus peaking and other tools the Sony camera have and Nikon/Canon not
3) It’s said to be worldsbest lens. Isn’t it interesting to read about it?
4) Because it’s one of the few lenses that can take out the most of 36MP and future 50MP Sony sensor cameras
5) because people commented and liked a lot all my Otus posts. So it means they care about it
6) because that specific post talaks abotu a review on the Sony A7r
These are just six reasons that came into my mind :9
Glad you posted it but I don’t believe any of those are strong justifiers, sorry.
Perhaps if you pulled your head out of your as$ it would allow you to think more clearly. Perhaps not.
I agree 100% !!
Admin is expanding your photographic horizon. That’s a good thing!
“And seeing that Sony will release 50 Megapixel FF cameras in early 2015 this may be one of the few lenses that can get the most out of the new sensor.”
So is the 48mp camera rumor for an E mount camera (since these cannot be adapter for a-mount)?
New sensor is for both. Don’t know if the first camera will be A or E or both mounts. But to be more specific I heard about A-mount being first…but that’s not a SR5 rumor yet…
So, there is plenty of time to consider an OTUS. Perhaps by that time the prices would have “stabilized” a bit. I am leaning more towards to AA Summicron 50/2, though a bit more than the OTUS is compact and a featherweight. Innovations in compactness with great performance ought to be supported. 🙂
It’s a f/2 lens and costs how much? I don’t see any achievement there.
I am not trying to praise the AA Summicron nor diss the OTUS. I am saying where my preferences are. If that makes me lower in your estimate, then it is not my problem. 🙂
Not at all… just wondering what’s so praise worthy about a $8250 50/2 lens that flares 🙂
What lenses are praiseworthy in your opinion?
From the fast 50s? The Sigma 50/1.4A of course. It’s better corrected than the Otus 55. And you got to give credit because of how they’ve priced it.
i’ll have to try it and the Art 35 someday. have you used the CV 35/1.2 ii? what do u think of it?
Yes I have. Nice lens… if you can live with the onion ring matter. For once the online negativity has a decent point. But not the biggest issue if you’re shooting in daylight where there are no lights that stand out.
What lenses do you like geno? Why are you so negative on everything?
Thx for the info.
Very nice lens and I would get it if I could afford it but I have seen much better pictures from lenses that are a fraction of the price. I guess its all about the person and not so much the lens. The main thing I notice is when you zoom to 100% the pictures pretty much looks the same as it does zoomed out. I think I will rent it one day and give it a try.
Could you please mention which lens you mean and give a link to these pictures at full resolution?
3D-Kraft, The onion rings is the OOF highlights are less defined compared to the ones from Nikon 800 cams. Is it because of the shutter vibrations from the A7r?
Vivek, which particular picture do you mean?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hhackbarth/15002741160/sizes/o/
Ahh – this was shot with the A7S (the only one in that article). So shutter vibrations are definitely no explanation here.
Interesting. 🙂 Thanks!
Are a manual-focusing god? A lot of the subjects were moving towards you (or kinda). How did you focus so fast?
In these situations, it is easier to focus just approximately somewhere in front of the subject and then shoot a series. Usually there will be some suitable hits.
If there are vibrations the entire image should be affected
‘seen much better pictures’
what does better mean in your language?
omg! this thing on the image is REALLY ugly!
The A7r is hardly an ugly camera! I think it’s pretty. Okay, it looks a bit weird on a large pro lens, but it’s still a nicely designed camera.
so why buy medium format when you can have this instead?! 😛
Because those people know what they’re doing? And they know small formats can’t replace larger ones… just the same way APS-C doesn’t replace FF, and mFT doesn’t replace APS-C, 1″ doesn’t replace mFT, and iphones don’t replace 1″, etc. at least as far as quality goes… see a simple pattern? They have 😉
THE BRUNETTE!
ah, yes, the lens looks great.
Some of the shots they have posted are good but a lot are garbage (technique-wise)… shaken, focus missed, etc. Couldn’t care less about what they “think” if they can’t get the shots right.
I have no doubt that the OTUS is a wonderful piece of glass. But lets face it all decent 85mm lenses are very good to excellent from F2 or so. So you are basically looking at performance at or near wide open [ where DOF is ultra shallow} . Looking at the comparison with the Nikon 85mm F1.8g a lens that is a tenth the price, less than half the weight and considerably shorter not forgetting that Nikon bodies automatically correct for CA. Do you really see much of an advantage with the otus ? to justify the extra weight, bulk, and cost.
The 100% crops from the website with a one click fix for CA look very similar. This is usually when the Leica/Zeiss folk come out with the old chestnut that its not what you can measure but rather some magically fairy dust element the use to justify the price. I could comfortably afford the lens I simply do not see enough of an advantage to justify the purchase. The problem with the OTUS lenses is that even if they are a little better than their rivals there are no shortage of very good or even excellent lenses in the 50mm 85mm focal range.
Funnily enough the tens of thousands of Nikon and Canon pros can manage to focus their fast F1.4 lenses just fine as can the millions of amateur users of such glass. Considering the rather well known issues with adapters, apparently there is no free lunch.
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters
Average screen at 23 to 24 inches has about 79-110 PPI. Actually, your better off today viewing photo’s on your IPAD with retina- over 300 PPI. However, with computer screens normal viewing distance is 2.5 feet. Based on what the human eye can see, at such a distance 0ver 110 is more than enough. MP’s? It takes about 3MP to fill a 9.75 retina display. The average display has srgb and not abobe either- forget about pro. So with that said, all the glory of this lens will be wasted on 99% of those who choose to use it. Let’s not even discuss the issues with getting a really good print above true 12 bit. For most people, this lens won’t look much different than any other picture taken. That is, unless you’re buying it to just zoom in and stare at details in lightroom all day long.
Agreed. Under normal viewing scenario on a 23″ screen, I couldn’t tell the difference.
This picture of the A7R resembles a Maxxum 7000 with a Minolta AF 500 reflex attached.
Looking at the shots from the heavy, long , MF and expensive OTUS compared to even the Nikon F1.8 G with one click CA fix most Nikon bodies do this automatically the differences are microscopic. This is a 100% comparison does one of them look 10 x better lol
Of course the Nikkor 85/1.8 G (2012 model) is quite sharp already at open aperture and the purple fringing can be corrected quite easily but it is not f/1.4 and the harsher bokeh (and the strong bokeh fringing that is not correctible unless you convert to b/w) is a different story…
Thank you for taking the time to share these images with us its nice to see real images rather than test chart shots
It is pretty amazing to see such performance at F1.4, Sadly , to prevent divorce lol I will have to make do with the cheap option and a tinker in Photoshop
I couldn’t say which is better. One on left looks sharper toward the neck of the bottle. The other one is sharper in the text.
As I have state it, When FE version show up it will come strait do dady ….
Quite frankly, I think this is nothing more than a trophy piece. It’s a marvel no doubt, but as I stated below- viewing medium hinders most people in terms of squeezing that performance out to something that is tangible. Sharpness isn’t everything either- and so it is with monitors. Contrast ratio, then saturation, color accuracy and THEN resolution is last. Even with 36MP’s behind this lens, outside of print I don’t see the advantage. Most people would benefit from upgrading their monitor more than buying another top shelf lens.
Even in standard web resolutions you see the difference in bokeh.
True. But bokeh is somewhat subjective.
A familiar argument in many fields of endeavor: Is that last 2% of performance improvement worth an additional cost of 2X? (or even 5X or 10X). For example, a Porsche Boxster S is so fast you can’t use its full potential on the road (except for certain limited stretches of the Autobahn) without being arrested. But for a mere factor of 10X more dollars/euros, Porsche will sell you the super-exotic 918 hybrid, which is even faster — by some measures. Top speed, 0-60mph, the 918 totally rules; through the slalom, the much lighter Boxster might actually be faster. Is the 918 worth all that extra money? There is (IMO) no objective answer.
BTW, my subjective answer is the brunette is just adorable. 🙂
I have to disagree. The blonde is way better.
Exactly. The phenomenon is common in practically every developed technical area. Cars, bikes, audio, you name it. Price increases and improvements become smaller the closer to the top you get. Funny how many here (in the comments) seem unaware of this.
And oh, I prefer the blonde. 😉
Not sure that is a good comparison. We’re not talking about like 35mm verses 20×24 large format. Compared to some leica equivelants its a bargain- and it outperforms them as tests now are showing. The only question isn’t so much about performance as it is about application. Do you print and do you print large? No. Then skip it. If you do then why would you not want this for professional applications- I think it can be worth it. But that doesn’t apply to pretty much 98 percent of photographers. I still think, in the right context, it’s worth it. And it’s much more than a 2% improvement. You have to be serious pro or simply operate in certain conditions to get that high end performance out if it.