Well, Leica knows how to make ane exclusive camera! They just announced the Leica T APS-C mirrorless camera ($1800 here at BHphoto). It has the same 16 Megapixel sensor of the $398 NEX-3n. But the NEX-3n comes with a lens while the Leica T does not. And the (slow!) Leica T kit zoom costs another $1750.
Just like Hasselblad (but admittedly much better than the latter) Leica tries to appeal the luxury market. It’s a kind of market Sony has no access and were usually the brand is what matters. Obviously, the Leica T has some appealing features (mainly design and build quality) but sometimes I wonder how Leica can survive focusing on that small niche market.
Anyway, what matters to know is that here we have another Sony sensor inside a new camera. Sony may not completely successful in selling cameras but they are incredibly successful in selling sensors.
0 Responses
Bam! First!
Even if this thread will not yield any comments. 🙂
Your mother must be soooo proud.
Did it hurt your feelings?
Why do you have to respond with a 13yr old comment is beyond me.
i guess you meant “why do you have to respond TO a 13yr old’s comment is beyond me”
Possible, so why did you? You felt compelled? Somebody forced you?
Or do 13yr old commens draw you in like a magnet, because you see something you can relate to?
My theory is he replied to your infantile boast about being “Bam! First!” in the comments thread. I would classify your original post as highly consistent with those of a 13 year old.
Why would his reaction to your childish post be surprising to anyone, let alone you Mr. Stan?
Wow, you must be on the edge as well. “Mr Stan” <- that tells me alot about your state of mind right now.
The whole thing was meant as a fun comment, as done on countless boards, time and time again. It is usually meant to relax, improve mood and whatnot. Or even start a friendly conversation.
Whenever anyone starts bringing in parents, to any kind of post, no matter how you spin it, its downright childish.
And you "Mr I'm Angry At Everyone" should cool down a bit and see things the way they are.
No wonder there are so many a**holes on this board. Bunch of people with their heads up their a**es, thinking they're the s**t…
It is interesting that you consider your comment to be a “fun comment” but my response is akin to being childish.
I guess that tells us a lot about your state of mind.
I didn’t offend anyone, including you. Yet you are trying to offend me by bringing my parents into this. I would have not said anything if your reply was “So?” or “Big deal..” or “Now go and grab yourself a candy from the top shelf”.
Is it clear to you know, why your comment was out of place?
I note that you now attempt to demonstrate that you are an injured party, again this continues to demonstrate your state of mind. I suspect that the readers here are neither convinced nor bothered, they will see through such a transparent comment.
Have the last response. You know you can’t resist. Goodbye.
Hello Dodge/Dan/Poke.
Eh?
I wonder how many monkeys they have polishing camera bodies?
2nd
One thing you don’t see…is these high end luxury makers duplicating Canon or Nikon SLRs.
This may be a quite a waste of money, for anyone who doesn’t simply want the Leica tag….but it’s also continuation of a pattern. The only reason we still have ANY SLRs at all, is because Canon refuses to move on. And Nikon can’t move on if Canon doesn’t.
But everyone else….by virtue of not having to protect a huge market share….can push forward. Thank goodness.
I don’t want this Leica…but I do want Leica and every other premium brand to keep making Sony knock-offs.
We’re very nearly at the end…..SLR died 20 years ago in theory, now someone needs to make sure Canon gets the memo.
Haters gonna hate
He seems to actually be liking the idea.
I enjoy the high end Sony knock offs quite a bit…
since I have a Sony myself.
You seem to forget optical quality in your assessment. Frankly, that “slow” Leica zoom beats the Zeiss FE zoom for the A7 in optical quality, pretty clearly. The Leica market has always been about optics.
As for how they survive, they’re actually quite profitable these days, and I suspect that the T will just reinforce that. You have to scale your business (infrastructure/resources/expenses) to your business (sales of product). Leica’s done that. Sony is still trying to do that with still cameras.
So why make a camera that costs 3 times what it needs to, just have a Leica mount?
And no, the Leica does not beat the Zeiss “pretty clearly.” If you give me 100 photographers at random, and let them shoot both lenses, and print their results for a demanding REAL WORLD output, then let another 100 photographers at random guess which ones are which…..
They’ll fail. I’m not guessing, I do this test all the time. In almost all cases, the photographer and his skill is the weak link making most quality lenses identical. In the rest of the cases, we’re talking about a good NEX sensor, that will do a very adequate job of leveling the playing field. And if that’s not enough, most people can’t tell great from exceptional in NORMAL output anyway.
You could make the same argument about iPads, Macs, Sony Brava TVs, BMWs, and a host of other products. Quality products are quality products. They’re expected to withstand abuse and last. They’re made of quality parts to high standards. If you don’t appreciate quality, buy cheap, by all means.
As for not beating the Zeiss, you’re making the argument that 100 people at random driving a Ferrari won’t beat a driver that knows what they’re doing. Sure. They also won’t beat that same driver driving a Kia, either. From what I’ve seen of both lenses, I’ll stand by my comment, and when someone who knows what they’re doing using a T takes a picture that is better than with an A, it’ll likely be due to the lens. As I wrote recently, sensors are now a fairly flat playing field, and that’s especially true for everyone using Sony sensors.
As for your final statement, that’s the reason why smartphones are killing the camera companies. What will be left after all is said and done is (1) most people using the lowest level devices (smartphones, perhaps some future “better” compacts); and (2) people who CAN tell good from great and demand the best gear. Sony has not yet showed me whether they want to do #1 or #2. They still seem to be targeting that in-between area that’s not going to survive.
BMW’s don’t withstand abuse and last- they’re horribly unreliable. I wouldn’t factor in dependability into pretty much any modern luxury product. They’re expected to withstand abuse, but that doesn’t mean they actually live up to that. Premium products should set the benchmark in terms of performance. Leica simply isn’t doing that anymore.
Can’t speak to recent BMWs as I’ve not driven one. Earlier ones I had experience with were fine.
I find it difficult to parse your “Leica simply isn’t [setting the benchmark in performance]” comment. I don’t know of a mid-range zoom lens that matches the one they just introduced. None. That would be a benchmark in my book.
But why aren’t we speaking about benchmarks such as the Sony 10-18, which weighs at 225 grams, has OSS and constant aperture? Or the tiny Olympus 9-18? Or the Sony 55? Or the fact that Leica copied the dial design from the NEX-7? So, benchmarks, there are many. In the end, what’s that amazing Leica quality that warrants the price? Is a D4 falling apart? Is a NEX-5N breaking on a regular basis?
The truth is that, same as cars, you simply pay more for some very specific benchmark and an image associated with it. That’s it. Overall, it’s still a rip off.
Because 225g isn’t a PHOTOGRAPHIC benchmark, for example. It might not even be a benchmark, as lighter lenses exist. The Sony 35mm FE lens sets a pretty strong optical benchmark for full frame cameras (if we don’t count Leica M-mount lenses, which are priced in the stratosphere).
You seem desperate to defend Sony. Or offend Leica. Or both. Your logic, unfortunately, isn’t leading us anywhere.
D4’s, for your information, have a reputation for the focus choosing nub to break off. I can’t begin to count how many of my fellow pros who’ve had to have their D4 repaired for that. Mine probably hasn’t broken because I use my D800 more and when I do use the D4 I like the Direction pad location better than the nub location, and so don’t use it.
I get it. You don’t think the Leica T is worth the money. For casual use, probably not. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who want that level of optical quality and will pay that price for it.
I agree with you.
Well, one can say that you are desperate to justify the Leica pricing, but I’ll abstain, because such ad hominem stuff is frankly lame. I wonder if you really are Hogan.
I certainly don’t have a problem with people buying whatever they want for whatever their personal reasons. But when people start defending their purchases with some crazy rationalization, it can become preposterous. Luxury product doesn’t equal quality product. Leicas fail too (for your information). There is nothing more reliable about their cameras than high-end products from every other brand for 3-4 times less. I also didn’t say that the weight of the Sony is a photographic benchmark. But, well, you grasped for the straw. The fact is, plenty of benchmarks exist (and I am repeating myself here, because you clearly didn’t manage to get the rather obvious point), photographic and others, from other brands, but somehow only Leica’s ones are mentioned.
Perhaps only Leica were mentioned, because that’s the topic of this thread?
I’m not at all desperate. You never really buy a Leica for the camera body, it’s always been for lenses. The T lens that I’ve seen is exceptional. Exceptional enough to show a difference on those 16mp Sony sensors. In these days where everyone is using nearly equal sensors, the distinguishing trait in cameras will be optics and UI; the Leica T is distinguished in both of those things.
I’m amused that you’re trying to co-opt my argument: luxury products do fail. Nikon’s proven that time and again recently ;~). But in terms of logical argument to the question at hand here, that point is a non-sequitor. People don’t buy products, cheap or expensive, expecting them to fail. When they do, and do so with regularity, people stop buying them, regardless of whether they’re cheap or expensive. No business sets out to make products that fail because of that. In terms of that, Sony has been better than many of the Japanese companies lately, particularly Nikon.
Yes, plenty of benchmarks exist. But people pay for different kinds of benchmarks at different values. Moreover, I was only talking about one set: those surrounding image quality and only image quality. So once again you’re attempting to divert the discussion from my point in order to win an argument.
So let me use one of YOUR benchmarks and ask a question: which would you rather have, a lens with a constant aperture or a lens that performs optically better than every other lens that would be a direct replacement?
Thom, you are coming from but one perspective, which is different than mine. I buy Leica for the system, not for the lenses. I know other Leica owners who don’t give a hoot about either the lenses or the bodies, they just want the brand. In my vast experience, that is the majority of Leica owners. In this day where everybody is using nearly equal sensors, the distinguishing trait in Leica cameras is the brand, and the secondary associations that go along with it. Also, people DO buy expensive, flagship products fully expecting them to fail–as an example, consider the output transformerless tube amplifiers that were the absolute top-of-the-line product for a while, like those produced by Julius Futterman. There are many examples, all of which were prone to instability and failure in the electronics, as well as in the poorly-regulated tubes; the biasing was also constantly failing. Purchasers absolutely expected this to happen, and it always did, but they nevertheless paid top dollar for those electronics. And that’s not the only example, but I don’t have all day. Yes, OTL amplifiers are still produced, and they are more reliable today than in the past. Few set out to produce something with the intent that it will fail, but some consumers absolutely purchase some products with the full expectation, and even knowledge, that they WILL fail under normal use.
Me neither. I am hardly defending Sony here, I pointed you to several other brands. And whether the lenses are great or not, Leica’s products, or at least their bodies, are severely overpriced. That is all I am saying and I am not diverting from the argument. You spoke first about quality products and how they should stand to abuse and connected that to the price. I disagreed. You mentioned that Leica has benchmarks, I simply stated that other brands have too. There isn’t any magic about it, it’s just another brand.
Now, I understand where that price comes from, low capacities, hand made, great optics etc., but in the end there is a competition out there to be compared to.
As to the question you asked (nice try on putting in a very limited way), I would search for the optimal solution with three constraints, dimensions, price and performance.
Putting the pricing aside, Leica’s cameras are great. The new T seems particularly intriguing to me, to the point that I might want to purchase it. But I surely wouldn’t be telling people how it’s some kind of benchmark or how its quality warrants the price.
Though… in fairness… I’m not sure there’s a big market for high-end mid-range zooms.
Agree. I actually wrote something similar to that when Leica introduced the X-Vario (fixed mid-range zoom predecessor to the T). Thing is, when you’re hand building cameras as Leica does, they don’t need all that large of a market to succeed.
I wouldn’t say that Sony isn’t targeting #2. The RX series of cameras are great and I think the E mount stuff is going that way. I hope the A mount stuff follows suit, since I like the A mount. Still, they need to have a confident strategy on how to proceed with their imaging business. Their professional video stuff is top notch. Their other offerings are becomming more compelling. Now, they really do need to bolster their lens offerings (quality first, but don’t jack up the price to unreasonable levels).
My problem with Sony and #2 is that they are making decisions that ultimately compromise #2. The raw file compression and bit depth on the A7 series, for instance. Why take great sensors and then snip off some of the quality they produce? It’s decisions like that which seem to persist throughout Sony’s line. If they’re going to do #2, do #2.
This is a “nice” piece of design, there is nothing that feels as nice in the hand as shot-blasted aluminum (I don’t know if it is shot-blasted or not) (OK, nothing else a camera could be made of). Even though it would match my Gaggenau kitchen appliances and Wadia electronics, I won’t be getting it because it has no pivoting screen, no optical viewfinder for redundancy, etc.
Some technical things have become must-have’s for me. While I would rather spend twice as much on something that will retain its value than on something like a Sony, still this isn’t the system for me.
It’s a beautiful design aesthetically with a great lens intuitive user interface. At the end of the day what lies beneath the beautiful lens and exterior is a mediocre sensor. The sensor should have been the best available, and if the price would reflect that than so be it.
isn’t that sensor the best that’s available (foveon aside)?
Best available? No, neither sensor is even in the top 10.
I meant in APS-C world, my understanding is that it’s the same Sony sensor used in Ricoh, Nikon, Sony cams.
That was my first thought as well, that a body like this should incorporate a really top-notch sensor that is well-integrated into the system. Maybe the NEX sensor will be fine, I have no experience with it.
Without commenting on the substance of much of this post, I will entirely disagree with the analogy of the Ferrari vs Kia. A moron in a Ferrari will smoke an F1 driver in a Kia all day, every day.
Having said that, Sony:Leica is a much, MUCH greater ratio than Kia:Ferrari, so I don’t find the analogy particularly helpful.
That wasn’t my analogy. My analogy was an F1 driver in a Ferrari will smoke a “moron” in a Ferrari. An F1 driver in a Kia will smoke a “moron” in a Kia.
If I were to extend the analogy as you’re suggesting, an F1 driver in a Kia might or might not beat a “moron” in a Ferrari (the “moron” might just crash, after all ;~). A “moron” in a Kia wouldn’t have a chance in hell against the F1 driver in a Ferrari.
The proper test isn’t using 100 random photographers, the proper test is taking photographers and having them shoot the exact same subject using the same lighting and every other variable except the lens… then see if people can tell the difference. By using random photographers taking random photographs you prove nothing. A test to prove one product over another should always keep everything equal aside from the product or in this case the lens…. to do anything else is to make the test a joke.
That slow Leica lens is probably the kit from Panasonic.
Oh, you mean for Panasonic’s APS-C sized sensor?
…
Right.
No, it is not. It’s a Leica design produced by a Japanese company (not Panasonic, not Cosina is all we know at the moment) to Leica’s specs. You can see the difference immediately between the m4/3 lenses and this one: linear distortion is mostly corrected in the Leica design, the saggital coma is low, the corners are sharp, and more.
I would LOVE if Sony made the lenses. Maybe they can learn something about how to make an APS-C zoom.
Thom, I think you’re mostly right. Overall the size/IQ of the zoom (even considering the slow, variable aperture) is astounding from what I’m seeing in the samples. However, Leica lives on rarified air. Sony (nor anyone else) could make zoom these days without stabilization for a system without IBIS—regardless of image quality. Yet, Leica can and it means they can make a lens much more compact and consistent in IQ. The critical mass of consumers demand certain compromises these days without truly understanding the compromises they are asking for. We see this every day on SAR with requests for the fabled $1k 10-1000mm f/1.0 APO zoom that fits in your pocket.
I do hope Sony takes notice of this system. Their zooms aren’t bad but the T series is showing that they could be much better.
It’s a shame the X Vario lens was also derided for being slow as that’s a very good lens as well. It seems the X Vario was an RX type move like what Sony did.
I want to like Leica, I really do. But, I don’t see the value even as a luxury camera maker. The 50mm .95 for 10k? WTF? I get that it is sharper than most lenses at wide open and uses floating elements, premium build..yada yada. I don’t think the quality is really the problem- it’s the competition. I mean, Sigma is making lenses that Leica should be jealous of. I said it…and don’t give me that “Leica Glow” crap…nothing glowing about flushing money down the drain.
Your not wrong, Sigma are making some astounding lenses. With the new rumored 24mm on the way, they are looking to complete their art series nicely. Personally I’d love to own the 24mm, 35mm, 50mm and a 85mm from Sigma.
You are theoretically right but when I shoot 55 FE vs.50 Summilux ASPH, the “Leica Glow crap” make the picture more pleasing even if everyone realise that the 55 FE is sharper
I’ve gotten to the point where I’m ok with spending around 3k for a lens. Maaybe 5k for something extra special or rare….like a minolta 600mm f4 or a mint condition 1956 Rolleiflex never touched. But I can’t seem to get into Leica so maybe it’s me. I’m trying man, I’m really trying. I keep staring at the images and looking at all of the comparisions and I don’t get the facination. The glow is nothing more than flare, blooming or low contrast.
When you buy sensors in batches of 25, the cost is prohibitive. Each camera will have serial #s below 1000.
It would be nice if Leica would make lenses for the E mount.
It doesn’t need to… you can already mount Leica lenses to E mount with an adapter.
Better without adapter.
Will it do 4k? The A7s can, with an optional 3rd party recorder! 🙂
Noone but few video geeks gives a shit.
No. Only 1080 (30p).
Looks like a Leica version of the legendary NEX 5N,
much better than the Blad space-named remakes
Same sensor or not; I used the X Vario; superb IQ. Not sure my RX1 or A7R does any better – but different bokeh.
the design of the body is just pure beauty and a real added value!
For a live style camera it is perfect.
Compare it with a Sony NEX
and you don’t get these Leica lenses with AF for any Sony.
You are right, even Sony’s lenses are faster than these dogs. And Fuji blows them out of the water with f/1.2 and f/1.4 offerings.
What are you getting from Leica? A slow zoom with no stabilization and one decent f/2 prime. Guess what the next two lenses are in the roadmap? Two more slow zooms. Have fun with those.
Sony sensors are in lots of devices.. This is not a rebadged Sony Alpha, nor does it hint at some advanced Sony tech that will becoming to Alpha.. This post does not belong on this site..
A lot of cameras are out there with the NEX5N ‘s sensor (almost all doing better than Sony’s cams). The fantastic ricoh GR, for example. It is a pity that camera was not covered.
It is not the sensor but the camera that matters fot a photog. 🙂
I am sure comparisons will be made between the T and the 16MP Sony NEX’. We will see shortly if the T does a better job.
viewfinderless. this cheap trend makes me sad.
hahaha when I saw this I thought it was such a joke….all the internals come from a much cheaper camera yet the price tag is ridiculous because it’s a Leica….that’s a big premium to pay for a piece of aluminum and the red dot…..anybody serious about photography would pass!
minipixels.net | Automotive Photography + Design
conveniently omitting completely new controls, the way you interact with the camera, the build quality, the support which comes with the product and oh, forgot to add – you have not even used it… these comments are just ridiculous
Controls? I’d hardly call them controls. If I wanted to control my camera like a smartphone, jabbing at the rear screen then I’d well, use a smartphone.
I prefer DEDICATED buttons and dials, that way I don’t need to go into a smartphone menu in the first place. 😉
And you have read reviews according to your comments.. you do have dedicated dials for everything you need to take photos, the beauty of this touch interface is that you don’t need gazillion buttons – and that’s the genius of this camera.
Don’t get me wrong, I have M6, X-Pro1, Mamiya 6 and Hasselblad V systems so I’m all for manual controls but on the other hand I do appreciate simplicity of this new T, it’s the way to go – going forward.
I’ve read the reviews and Michael Reichmann sums it up by saying this product is for rich amateurs that want to take photos without bothering to understand how to take photos. Oh, and they will buy it in a duty free shop.
If this is you, then your new camera awaits…
It might be me, I like it as a concept and I believe that this might be what future cameras will look/operate like.
We cannot ignore new generation of photographers, not everyone has been raised in film era and knobs. New generation is all about touch screens, social media and always connected world and Leica is smart in trying to attract this generation – yes, the price is steep and out of reach to most mortals but Leica has never been cheap.
You clearly don’t know what dedicated buttons and dials means. That’s fine if you don’t need them and are happy to jab at smartphone screens, I am not.
No, I do. All you need to do to make exposure is to set aperture (you have a dial), shutter speed (you have a dial), sensitivity (you can choose manually ISO or use Auto) and release the shutter – what else do you need to make an exposure? I don’t use anything else on my cameras. Battery for metering in both M6 and Mamiya 6 has expired long ago, Hasselblad doesn’t have any – I meter with my eyes, it’s not that hard 😉
How did you know I never used a Leica? I had used a m6 before and was not blown away given it’s price tag hence I sold it
Your arguments and comments is exactly what I would expect from a Leica fanboy..thanks for confirming that! lol
Actually, he didn’t say you hadn’t used a Leica, he said you hadn’t used the Leica T. Just saying.
As Justtakethepicture said, I said you haven’t used the new T. And calling me a Leica fanboy is quite funny as I own only M6 and no other camera from them 😉 I’m no fanboy of any brand and use cameras/lenses from various brands (sigma, fuji, hasselblad, leaf, leica, mamiya, nikon, voigtlander, zeiss)
The price of the camera is actually not bad for a Leica. If I remember correctly, the M8 was more expensive. It’s the price of the kit lens which is a bit ridiculous, even if it’s sharp corner to corner. I know it must be 5 times more expensive than average, but then I still doesn’t come higher than €1000…
GXR:M is far better than M8 was at fraction of cost (and still is).
I can hear the Garitz elves sharpening their blades now.
Ming Thein put up a review a few minutes ago.
Ming’s, like other reviews went live after official announcement 😉
or in other words, 8 hours ago
thanks, HF!
anybody should read it and look at the perfect images, Ming took of it in his perfect quality!
The mount looks perfect for a FF sensor!!!
I have to start saving money (again :-))
regarding the Fuji XE2 image files on his blog:
Ming Thein says: November 14, 2013 at 12:32 PM
“They don’t satisfy me when taken into consideration as a whole;
the overall image quality is pretty poor. Enlargement size would be
smaller than the E-M1, let alone the GR. And yes, the keeper rate was
dire – about 3%.”
From that review my response is, meh overpriced tat.
I used up all my good jokes on Hasselblad. I cant think of any new ones for Lieca.
Idk, looks intriguing. I am happy someone finally copied the dial design from the 7, it really is a good one.
I miss you.
What the he11 is going on here?
How about “Looks Leica Apple Product, With The Rotten Core of a Sony”
You had me until the rotten core part. Nothing wrong with that sensor.
Sony needs to learn a thing or two from Leica.
One: A Menu system that’s user friendly. I’d almost buy the camera just to have finally a simplified menu system.
Two: Great lenses.
Three: Build quality and feel.
The lesson isn’t that people are getting ripped off by Leica, that this is the same as a cheap NEX camera, yada yada…the lesson is that a camera is far more than its sensor, and Sony needs to pay attention to the whole product.
It’ll sell because it’s a Leica not because it’s good or not. Sony don’t have anything to learn from it because it looks awful to use and has the controls of a smartphone.
Nothing to see here.
Obviously you haven’t read the intitial reviews or video reviews. The camera seems great to use, and the menu system is probably the first one in a camera that’s truly user friendly.
To each his own…but if Sony were to implement this type of menu system it would be a huge leap forward.
I’ve just read the review actually, hence my comment.
Initial reviews from who? Three certified Leica fanboys?
C’mon be serious. If Sony or Fuji came out with this camera, at this price, never mind if it was made out of unobtainium, they would be skewered by the press.
If anything it is an interesting physical and interface design study and for that reason alone will appeal to many well heeled potential customers but the thought of controlling the camera with two dials and a touchscreen is a bit too much for me at this point in time. I’m imagining how to do AE lock? Change my drive or metering mode without menu diving? Anyone?
Sorry, Samsung and now Leica can live in this world but I’ll pass.
Add to that, the fact that in the lowly A7, I can get a better FF sensor, better (built-in) EVF, have my m-mount lenses render at their intended focal lengths while skipping the $600 adapter, all for less than the price of the T-Body.
Pass
The Sony kitchen-sink menu system is horrible and I own the A6000.
one: I’m using the rx1 and A7 for the past 3 months, what menu are you talking about? There are manual dials for aperture, shutter, and iso. Same goes for my fuji xe-1 x100s and…now I think about it …which menu system is actually worth bitching about? they all take 5 secs to get use to and hardly ever used.
Two: Zeiss! selection as extensive as canikon? No. More than a non pro (all of you who don’t make money from your photos) ever need? Yes.
Three: Rx-1, A7r, Nex7 quality and feel are on the same level as Fuji x100, OMD, Pentax k5, leica M8. Have not tried the m9 or this new Leica but I don’t see how sony can make a camera that feels more solid than the Rx1 or a7, maybe weather seal it.
As of now, Leica is priced and sometimes styled like a Ferrari but comes with a chevy v8.
+1 ! Details, design, materials and function made Apple’ success.
I’m not sure that the Leica 23mm f2 is better than the Sony Zeiss 35mm f2.8 (despite the fact that it cost significantly more).
The one to compare is Sony Zeiss 24mm f/1.8. That’s twice the size of Summicron T 23 f/2. Some good Leica know how must have gone into this lens and hence the price tag.
hakan is right, the better comparison is the ziess 24 1.8 because they are about the same focal length and nearly the same f-stop. the leica costs more but is half the size. but the leica system was never about low cost, it was always about the compactness, the quality glass, and the craftsmanship at a premium price.
You’re absolutely right.
Sony innovation stops at sensor technology. What about user interface and design?
I really love the design of the body. As I was speaking with a friend after reading Steve Huff’s review, I wondered how long it will take for someone like Metabones to put out an adaptor for Sony E and Fuji X lenses. I simply cannot believe the prices they want to charge on the new system lenses for this system.
Also, interesting deeper in the comments hearing the comments about Leica lenses and the superiority/ reason for high prices. If I’m remembering correctly, the Zeiss FE 55 has bench tested second only to the Zeiss Otus. The Fuji 56mm is exceptional too from what I’ve seen. I’m sorry, but I’m just never gonna spend that kind of money on a slow kit lens regardless of who makes it.
the ziess fe 55 is second to otus from all tested lenses on dxomark but dxomark has never tested any leica m lenses. besides, does it make any sense to judge lens quality based on dxo scores?
You could compare with several Leica lens here. They are huge difference between group OTUS+FE and other lens
http://3d-kraft.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=151&catid=40&Itemid=2
I own quite a few M lenses, mostly modern ASPH designs. IMO the point of the M system lenses is not that they are absolutely better than any other system (The Otus handily disproves this), but because weighing in size, performance, build quality and manual focusing experience, M lenses are a compelling enough choice to justify their price.
Mostly it’s about performance/size ratio. Many of Leica’s world-class lenses are both all-metal AND 1/2 the weight and size of similar AF lenses. I can put together a Leica system with a 21mm f3.4, 35mm and 50mm f1.4 and 90mm f2.8, and the largest filter size is 46mm. A Canon 35mm f1.4 and 50mm f1.2 combo is heavier than the four together. The 50mm APO-summicron is in all regards the Otus’s equal, but only weights about 1/4 as much and takes 39mm filters.
The other thing about the Leica system is that they offer choices not available anywhere else. The 16-18-21 is in another league compared to every other ultrawide zoom out there, the 21mm F1.4 and 50mm f0.95 are both unique to Leica’s system. Of course, every brand has its special jewels…but Leica’s are especially interesting.
Ahh, interesting but I love my Sony camera’s! everything about them 🙂 hmm Thanks Sony! for being 97.21 % as good as Leica and sooo much lower in price! We live like kings and it’s good to be like da King, :-D?
You are a single 35 year old woman who lives in a rural part of the country and your photography is not a career (you are a shutterbug).
The commercial makes it seam that this camera is for rich gay men.
I support the LGBT community and I have no issue with gay or lesbian. However, I feel you are right (and my partner does too) just because of the shot where one guy tries to take the camera while the other refuses with a smile. Since the body language seems rather intimate, it does indeed make it look like the product is aimed at gay men. I would give Leica a massive applause for it if they did indeed pursue this venue since the camera is beautiful in itself (let’s not get into the price comment because not many cameras do actually look like things of great design themselves) and if it’s saying that very design and sleek conscious people (gay or not) are the target market…well, good for them!
I don’t think the image of a professional photographer or enthusiast blogger would have been an better approach for this rather unique and beautiful camera.
“not that there’s anything wrong with that”… though the ‘holster’ and ‘man bag’ are a bit of a give-away.
You picked up on that, huh? Based on the commercial, it is squarely targeted at gay men. No if’s and’s or but’s.
Yeah, I think it’s good marketing. And I have nothing against the gay community.
Interesting lens made in japan, body made in portugal, but they put a stamp saying made in germany.
Weasel like Apple’s “Designed in California” (but made in China but poorly paid workers)
I’ve always wondered about Leica’s “Lens Made in Germany” (my Contax lenses say “Lens made in Germany” too)–do they mean glass and metal all made elsewhere but the exact optical assembly is put together in Germany?
Oh, actually my Canon FD lens say “Lens made in Japan” too. Maybe common across the broad.
Well technically Apple isn’t lying since they are “designed” in Cupertino, which is a big difference from “Made”. Just like if you read the labels of Lacoste polos, they all read “designed in France”. Just a verbal loophole that still sounds just as good to the person not paying attention 😛
I wonder who makes the lenses. Sigma??
Actually, the camera is made in Germany, but don’t let the facts get in the way.
The Leica M is “made in Germany”, but most of it actually is made in Portugal. Only final assembly and the rangefinder alignement are made in Germany I believe.
lets see here, $1800 for a good looking aps-c okay, $1800 for a kit lens okay, probably $1k for the view finder..o…wait $1800 for a kit lens!? Who the hell you think you are ? Exxon mobile? Comcast? There is god dam competition out here.
This camera is not an NEX-3n or a Hassleblad imitation. A sensor is not a camera. One could have put cheap standard consumer kodak film in a high end Nikon F5 or premium Ilford – the sensors of the day. Nor is the Leica camera a decorated nex a la the stellar or lunar. I’m not saying the output is worth $1700 to a broad audience, it’s not. Then again an Eames chair doesn’t sit any better than a chair 1/5 the price, it’s for people that place a premium on design and there is nothing wrong with them having satisfying options. It doesn’t take away from the choices for the rest of us.
well said, this inter-brand bashing a la football teams is really silly, and just a ploy to form a false identity and get people to buy more stuff
Admin loves to bash other camera manufacturers for some reason, most likely insecurity of his own photographic ability or maybe jealousy of those who can afford it.
I’ve said it many times before, stop with the bashing and post something positive like lighting tips or lessons on composition. Nikon and fuji sites don’t bash other companies like this one.
I come here for news not to see the admin picking on other companies.
I will speak with my wallet here and purchase my a6000 and lenses directly through B&H. Behavior like this does not deserve reward.
I think he was just being ‘cheeky’
Wow! And you bother to come here and post your crap. Thanks. Thanks a lot. Would you like some TP for your bunghole, or does it hurt too much?
This is no ordinary camera, it’s a true Leica.
Sorry but does it matter what it costs ?
Not to me anyway.
I think many people here would love to buy one too.
We just want to convince ourselves we don’t desperately need one 🙂
Well, the point of this post was to say it’s not a “true Leica” but a Sony wrapped in Leica metal (not that I necessarily agree).
I definitely would not buy one. It’d be a downgrade from the A7R
yes it would, if the A7 wouldn’t exist though I’d definitely buy this Leica T.
It’s a product for wealthy design lovers, the traditional apple “niche”
Apple niche? 43.7 M iPhones sold last quarter? How many cameras Sony sold in that period?
I’M TRULY SHOCKED! The most famous Manufacturer of Full Frame Lenses is competing against Hasselblad’s NEX Clones with a new APS-C Lens Mount having learned nothing from Nikon 1 or from Sony shining since going Full Frame – α7s convinced and excited me much more, nevertheless I’m still hoping to a Full Frame Sensor in a NEX-5 or at least α6000 alike body.
Full frame in a NEX-6 or 6000 body would be absolutely great as these are much smaller than A7r.
With a massive touch screen LCD
This is what I’m keeping my fingers crossed for! Should slip in nicely price wise between the A6000 and the A7 since it appears Sony isn’t releasing a top end APSC body like the XT1. Even with an A7 body, I would have no intention on buying any zooms for it as I only use primes for my NEX 5n now, so any notion that a compact FF body to balance large FF lenses is a non issue for me.
Sony’s camera division shines so much that it still is in the red, pretty much unlike Leica.
Leica is the Apple in photography. People want that design, quality and simicity don’t care about the price so much. I would love to have that beautiful Leica but at the moment I’m very happy with my A7r and Zeiss lenses. If I was in the market for APS-C thought I’d probably buy this over any other camera.
I’d expected Leica to use a Panasonic sensor due to their partnership but obviously Sony had the best to offer in APS-C size.
No they’re nothing like Apple. There might be some similiarities but Leica doesn’t (or can’t) sue its competitors. Boom!
You’re pathetic. If you start comparing Apple products with competition, you’ll see that you’ll pay the same amount for the same features and same quality. If you don’t mind the software and features like Touch ID, backlit keyboards, MagSafe, M7 motion processor, then of course you can get a cellphone for $20 for what it’s worth.
Well… in fairness it’s not just a ‘block of aluminum’ – it’s a block of aluminum with a red dot. 🙂
I expect Sony to sue Leica any day now! Sony clearly has the patent on boring, uninspired, crap grip rectangles. ;^)
They don’t have a patent on grip rectangles that slice your hand open every time you go to pick it up. I love the look of machined aluminum, and the Apple products utilizing this technique is a testament to its beauty, but does anyone see how sharp that angle is on the front where your fingers are supposed to latch onto?! Ouch!
ADMIN, are you sure about the Nex-3N sensor being on the Leica-T..From whats I can see the samples from T, it doesn’t look like they have the same grain.
Yes they do. It’s whole wheat.
Keep in mind that Leica doesn’t use AA filters.
well, what do you all complain about, this is the NEX-7 successor, it has a tri navy system. Sony seems not to be able to realize one anymore, that is why we get the crippled a6000 to replace it.
This camera reminds me the multiple kit cars you could buy with VW beetle engines, and that cost more than the original beetle. So, we have now a NEX-7 with NEX-3N technical part inside and a full alloy body, whow. 350$ for the camera, 1500$ for the red dot and 1750$ for a lens. If now you are not IN, you will never be.
Hey boss, the $ goes in front of the number.
A lot of Leica defenders. Sony comes out with a new mount and two primes and a nice zoom and all we hear about is lack of lenses. Leica comes out with a new mount ( and old sensor ) with a slow zoom and one prime and it’s a “work of art”.
Some say it’s a work of art, I say they’re a piece of work.
Quite agree with this, but there are good reasons to believe that contrary to Sony’s launch lenses, these are of a much better quality at least. With the price to match, eh.
Hmm…you know, maybe THAT is how Leica can stay relevant as a camera manufacturer. Sure there will always be people that prefer the tactile experience of a Leica, but once the original generation of film cameras die off, why would someone who grew up on an ipad before they even owned their first phone care for a viewfinder that doesn’t show you what the final product will look like, or other limitations that using a rangefinder design inherently has over who knows what new technologies will come out in the future.
But I can see them taking the “Apple” route for those that value design and craftsmanship, and the total package versus just a laundry list of features like a Canon or Nikon. Amazing DSLRs, but you really are looking at a PC versus Apple situation where the Apple won’t be as fast as the PC at a similar price point but gives you more in other ways. Got way off topic there from cameras, but in short, Leica is no longer top dog in quality with the D800/A7r floating around so taking this sort of direction I feel could be worthwhile. If I had the money, I’d consider a camera more focused on its design/craftsmanship, but until then, practicality and bang for the buck is where I’ll be.
Lots of people out there have started with digital and gone to shoot film almost exclusively. Some do it because a film camera matches their Vespa… some, like me, do it for the benefits that a larger format size has over the small digital (FF and DMF) ones.
It has very little to do with the generation from which one comes from… it’s about knowing the strengths and weaknesses of different tools.
You seem to forget that where Windows machines used to require 4 GB RAM to run smoothly, Macs only required 2 GB. The same is true for iPhones vs. Android phones. iPhone 5S has half the RAM that most Android phones. It’s called optimization.
I doubt Leica chose the 16 GB sensor due cost issues. More is not always better.
I don’t have a problem with these type of products exsisting. To me it’s like one of those designer handbags.
As a bag, it’s not as effective as a backpack and costs much more. And like all electronic devices. This is not going to appreicate in price like a collectors item.
It’s the pure look at me factor that has a little functionality.
Personally I laugh on the inside when I see these type of products. They are better of buying some jewelry that won’t depreicated much and use their camera phone 🙂
Where’s the proof that Leica T is using Nex 3n sensor? Haven’t read this anywhere except here. Admin, hope you’re not spreading false information!
The crazy/sad thing is that leica will squeeze more out of that sensor than Sony ever did.
The removal of the AA filter alone squeezes a ton of resolution out of it, even if it does run the risk of increasing moire.
It’s a 3N sensor without the AA filter.
No, it’s a camera. What’s with this obsession with equating cameras with their sensors?
I love it if it has focus peaking and flip screen like many mirrorless digital cameras. The sensor spec is good enough and the price is acceptable. I would place an order if it has focus peaking and high ISO (800-3200) performance comparable to Leica M240.
Even if it is the NEX3 sensor – technically an image needs a little bit more than just a sensor.
Likely that the T will carry the “price-plus” for the red dot, but there are still some pro-Leica arguments which makes the price reasonable for some.
The lenses could make one main difference.
A Leica representative emphazised that the corrections of distortions, abberations and vignetting are done optically and that there is no software correction as done by other suppliers (what we Sony users must admit looking at the Zeiss’ 1670, FE2470 or the G18105).
Whether the announcements can keep the promises we will see in upcoming reviews.
From the few samples, this lens looks like the best corrected mirrorless zoom lens out there (if there really are no corrections). If you combine that fact with the red dot, the zoom doesn’t even look that much overpriced anymore. I’m actually more interested in this than I thought I would be.
according to few reviews I have read so far, there’s no SW based corrections – lenses are optically corrected
pocket camera with no viewfinder & kit zoom = 3500$ 🙂
most of your money would have gone to audi-design/expensive german labour for crafting the block.
Leica has huge microscope business. In terms of photography, each confocal microscope is photo camera with single, fixed lens and laser flash for ilumination. These nishe cameras are sold for hundresds of tousands each.
If the camera had on-sensor stablization comparable to Olympus’ 5-axis variety, a flip-out or, better, tilt-swivel display, and a built-in viewfinder comparable to the E-M1 or X-T1 instead of an ugly cylindrical clip-on finder that blocks the flash shoe, then I might even be inclined to applaud Leica for such a camera, even if the sensor is not state of the art (it might be the best APS-C sized sensor available to work with wide-angle rangefinder lenses, though), but I’d still rather not buy it, as serious macro and telephoto options are missing at least for now. And as it is, without those features I find it completely unattractive – without even looking at the price.
The m43/Fuji trolls popping their head again. Why should you bash every product where designers decided to not include certain retro fallacy features? Or is out of your price range?
Some people desire a clean modern design, superb metal build and cost is not a limitation. Why do you insist there shouldn’t be a product for them on the market?
Frankly, I don’t get why anyone needs that mechanical nonsense called stabilization at all. Most modern sensors have quite enough readout speed to take 8 shots per second and then apply some multishot NR algorithm.
a camera is not only a sensor… we are talking about experince also. Nice design, touch screen and really good lenses. I wished Sony could here hear the ringing bell. Give us good lenses for a-mount and e-mount and finally a good UX designed touchscreen device.
Smart move by Sony. I wonder if this hints as to who the sensor maker of Leicas new 50MP S? I’ll wait and see if Sony puts out a mirrorless MF camera.
From the rumours so far it seems to be the same unit like in Sigma/Hassy/PhaseOne.
If it’s a Apple product sold for $1000 as a kit, it will beat most mirrorless camera in the market IMO. However I see a $1750 Made in Japan 18-56 3,5-5,6. I will stick with my M.
Does anyone realize that the controls are a copy pase of nex 7 seen from top?
This is the most forward-thinking camera for a long time.
Sony should pay attention because if Apple decided to enter the camera market they could mass-produce similar body for half the price. $150 B in the bank buys you few lens manufacturing partners, no doubt.
Unibody, internal storage and touchscreen-interfaces – that’s the future.
EVF and GPS should be built-in, but this is Leica not Apple. Add iPod-like click wheel next to the touchscreen and there you have it. PASM is history. I know most of you have hard time admitting it, but we’ll see.
One thing I really like of T-Leica Lenses is that they don’t need software-based corrections that decrease resolution. At the beggining, Sony didn’t employ SW corrections for their lenses, what you saw was what you get straight from your lenses, but sadly their lenses didn’t perform great. Now, most of their lenses need SW corrections and Sony are charging high prices.
i am a leica user, and i am sure the 6-bit is offering some sort of SW correction.
The price of the body seemed to be okay but then I saw the price of the lenses, omg ._.
I sure would love that 23/2 for sony nex and of course not for that price…