Reuters reports that Sony is acquiring the Toshiba image sensor business. This is quite a big news! Both Toshiba tech and production facility will help Sony to increase their market share. Right now Sony produces 40% of the worldwide sensor production.
I am wondering how other companies like Samsung and Canon can keep up with Sony’s sensor powers. Maybe in 2-3 years from now Sony’s E-mount cameras will be a generation ahead over the competition…
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But how about the new 8 FE lenses?
Delayed due to overheating issues along with A6XXX.
Conspiracy theory: delayed because SAR was on it, better not let Andrea get his rumours right.
Seriously Sony’s like “Somebody leaked to SAR, let’s not make an announcement.”
No – Sony’s like:
“In six months we announce X, so leak to SAR something different”
Experience has shown that Sony is not leaking anything to SAR. I doubt anyone with any stature at Sony knows that SAR exists, or cares much if they do.
Toshiba made the D7100 and most probably D7200 sensor, too (according to chipworks). So good for Sony.
heard of this rumor, too.
But I am not sure if it is true. At least in DxOmark D7200 gets 1.5 Evs higher Dynamic Range than A6000. And in DPreview D7200 looks much better to me, too. So I guess the sensor is different – but I cannot tell if it is a Sony or a Toshiba.
https://chipworks. secure. force. com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=NIK-D7200_Pri-Camera&viewState=DetailView&cartID=&g=
HF, your link did not work. There seems to be some extraneous words embeded in the string.
I inserted a blank space after each “.”, otherwise the comment gets not published immediately. So paste the whole link and remove the blanks.
Thanks, HF! Now your link work as expected, and it gives evidence that your argument is correct!
Competition is good. Without competition innovation will stagnate. So no, this not a possitive development,
They are not talking about acquiring 90% of the whole sensor development. Moreover, the demand for the sensors in phones and cameras is high, thus need to differentiate yourself from others, how you ask? Eith better camera in phone, so they will always be players who wants better, so no stagnation. Moreover how much does this acuiring will result on sony’s power on the market share ? 5%? 10%? Investment is always good.
“I am wondering how other companies like Samsung and Canon can keep up with Sony’s sensor powers. Maybe in 2-3 years from now Sony’s E-mount cameras will be a generation ahead over the competition…”
Well, there are people who argue that Nikon and Pentax are such prominent clients in Sony’s business that Sony will be in big trouble if Sony won’t offer them the best sensors.
If you believe these people, Sony’s life depends on their patronage, and Sony has no such power such as reserving sensors that are a generation ahead for themselves. They didn’t put down any specific date, but I had the impression that they believe Pentax will offer a Full Frame DSLR with Sony’s 42 MP sensor 6 months after the A7Rii launch.
I guess it’s just a matter of wait and see.
Pentax? How many people buy it? Aren’t they more of a niche product? As opposed to the Canon/Nikon mammoths.
One of reasons Pentax has small marketshare is that they had no FF and used Samsung sensors which were inferior at that time
Let me add another point: The DSLR’s are butt ugly. We should not underestimate this. Most people want “sexy” cameras too.
In terms of usability, Pentax is very competitive. And I appreciate the rugged build and that they use DNG.
Sony’s biggest share is in automotive and cell-phones, as far as I read it (http://connect. dpreview. com/post/7228456320/sony-has-40-percent-share-of-image-sensor-market). Apple and Samsung are the main buyers, so it is of paramount importance to Sony to sell its image sensors to other companies, being it smartphones, automotive or camera companies like Canikon.
Are you actually implying Nikon is on equal footing with the smartphone and automotive industry though?
How do you get to this conclusion? Nikon (35% market share compared to Sony’s 11%) as a strong user of Sony sensors is still of importance to increase revenue in my opinion. Thom Hogan once described the yield of FF sensors to be quite low (17-20 out of a waver compared to 200 for APSC), so my guess is selling lots of them to other companies would make it more profitable to Sony. I could be wrong, though.
I come to the opposite conclusion. Low yield wafers are bad business for Sony.
As a semiconductor fab, they are interested in high yield wafers, since the chips in these will actually be sellable.
Do you think Sony will mourn the loss of Nikon as a customer, or is it more plausible that Sony will simply shrug their shoulders and retool their fabs to more Smartphone chips?
In that case, they should shut down the A7-line and go with APSC ;-). If selling those FF sensors to other camera vendors increases profit and increases the reason to support the A7-line, why not? It would be interesting to get more detailed data.
I hope you realise that shutting down A7 line will shut down FE lens lines like Batis, Loxia and other Sony/Zeiss lenses.
Spending FF wafers on Nikon isn’t quite the same as spending FF wafers on E-mount cameras.
Was a joke. Using the Batis very often, I wouldn’t want that.
That’s the point. Sony (and Tamron) are making a ton of money on each Sold Batis lens, and they’re selling a heck of a lot of them.
So a single full frame E-mount sensor will bring in a lot more money than a single full frame sensor sold to Nikon.
Batis and Loxia and not made by Sony, probably it’s Cosina who makes them.
Batis optics designs are outsourced to Tamron, which sony owns a large chunk of.
I think Sony also had a helping hand in the Autofocus system.
Sony has 12.06% share in Tamron, not that much.
https://www.tamron.co.jp/en/investors/ir/
Sony aquired Softkinetcs, and sighned licensing agreement with Melixis, adding Sony CIS tech and advanced gesture recognition to Time of Flight cameras.
For the industries you mention that is very big news.
“Maybe in 2-3 years from now Sony’s E-mount cameras will be a generation ahead over the competition…”
sensor yes, body? BIG NO
Why ? Do you know how R&D works ? Bro do you even economics 😀 ?
Body is not an issue for them, the RX and FS series show how they can make any kind of body.
The hard work they have to do is in Lens and Software division, they need to open the App system.
Not only bodies.. lenses, flash, pro support, accessories, free firmware updates even for 5-6year old cameras, etc. Sony sensors are better than Canon sensors only in up to ISO 800, that’s it.
If this was in the UK such a deal would almost certainly be referred to the ‘Monopolies and Mergers Commission’, to ensure continued competition.
On the one hand, it should strengthen Sony and help them further on their road the economic recovery after a few lean years, but it could be a detriment to future progress if they then rest on their laurels.
This is no change at all except from accounting perspective. Sony and Toshiba have been working on this for very long time
Really? The sensor business is international, no national.
It’s called the ‘Competition and Markets Authority’ now, apparently, and if Sony and Toshiba were based here it would almost certainly have to go before them to decide whether it would be allowed, despite the business being worldwide.
It is an odd thing, although in the best interests of consumers, and some major mergers and takeovers have been blocked in the past, but given these are Japanese corporations I’m sure it’s just down to the free market.
Let’s hope we benefit!
Not it wouldn’t. The CMA is only interested in domestic competition. BAE and Rolls-Royce absorbed all the relevant UK companies in he past without any such issues as it was a global market, and he UK market alone can’t sustain something like that.
It’s just possible the EU competition authorities might have taken some interest as they have a wider remit (they have imposed conditions on companies like Microsoft for instance).
The CMA is rather powerless in global markets, and they’d be out of heir depth. After all, they haven’t exactly been interested in ARM who completely dominate the market for CPU designs in devices like smartphones.
In reality only the EU and the USA have much power in regulating competition in global markets, and even that is waning.
As I said in my original post, if the companies were UK based, or even if the relevant parts were, the CMA could look at that in relation to the UK market.
They’ve done it in the past on numerous occasions (Nikkei & FT, Ryanair & Aer Lingus, Reckitt Benckiser & K-Y, etc.). My understanding, though, is that most of the time some other party has to effectively make a complaint.
That’s all fairly meaningless, however, as I was actually making a somewhat flippant remark knowing it to be a non-existent possibility, rather than being entirely serious.
It depends on the market share the companies have. Toshiba’s market share is tiny. I doubt the Monopolies and Mergers Commission would be interested.
It’s a hypothetical anyway, so I’m not sure why you’d bring it up.
I refer you to the last paragraph of my previous reply.
Sony had been using Toshiba plants for the past 3 years least and they were working on sensors together for decade. This is almost no news at all.
Toshiba and Sony were definitely not competitors in sensor market.
I doubt this will have any effect at all on cameras.
Also consider that the sensor business is now separate from the rest of Sony and cannot care more about Sony E or A compared to Nikon or Canon or Olympus.
If you look at lens components there are things only Canon makes and everyone in Japan buys from them……
There us competition also as Sony makes 40% of the sensors. There are other mighty players just they were not named in the article…..
“Sony and cannot care more about Sony E or A compared to Nikon or Canon or Olympus.”
So what is your prediction?
Will Nikon and Pentax have access to Sony’s 42 MP BSI sensor in November, January, April?
There are 3 types of designs Sony makes. Exclusive designs, some that they sell to fixed set of customers and generally available. I do not know if the 42MP sensor is exclusive or not. However the technology used for that sensor for sure is available to all. For what we know Nikon may release 62MP BSI D4x on Monday if they feel this is the right thing to do and have made the proper design
What is Pentax? Do you mean Ricoh? They seem to not be pushing hard their photo business as of late.
PS Pentax is not a camera company but brand like a sticker on someone else’s products like Bravia or PlayStation
But I thought you said Sony can no longer care about having exclusive sensor designs for E-mount and A-mount.
It feels like you’re making conflicting arguments.
I think you should read a bit before arguing. Nikon too get exclusive designs and quite many of them
There is a bit more than pixel count in a sensor
You only have to look at the RX1R and A7R to know how little Sony cares about Nikon retaining exclusivity.
I don’t know of anyone using the d4 or d810 sensor.
You are really trolling at this point
Are you saying the D810 sensor is different from the A7R sensor?
(as far as I’m aware, Sony doesn’t produce the D4 sensor)
The D4 sensor is Renesas.
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2012/10/chipworks-reviews-full-frame-dslr.html
You can call the Sony Sensor sales office yourself. Its not closed for business. You can question them about any sensonr listed on the New products list and on these list. I have done it before. There are sensors listed and not listed. They will simply tell you if the sensors are for sale and when they will be for sale. Most of the time they will tell you that the sensors will be for sale soon. That’s it. No big secret on that.
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/IS/sensor2/products/index.html
So when will you release a product with the A7Rii sensor?
Prove that you can, then I’ll believe you.
There are no “exclusive designs”, Sony sells every sensor they make, just with a time lag.
Sony explained what they make and sell. I prefer to trust them.
D750 is another exclusive design
Name two “exclusive” sensors by Sony that are half a year old and were not sold.
Teddy, are you guaranteeing that the 42MP sensor will be on third party cameras very soon ithin a few months?
IF they will be willing to buy it.
IF they will not be able to develop their own.
Nikon has for 3 years been unable to develop their replacement for the 36 MP sensor. So that leaves us with your first argument.
I admit it’s very convenient for you. If Nikon doesn’t get the 42 MP sensor, you’ll just say “it’s because they didn’t want it anyway”.
Actually you are the one making convenient agruments for yourself here. “They didn’t want it” is a one hundred percent normal situation in every market.
That’s because it doesn’t make sense for Nikon to want the 36 MP sensor, but not wanting the 42 MP BSI sensor.
Let’s see, rumor has it Sony sensors are available for market in half a year after initial release in Sony’s own camera. There’s another choice too – Sony can make another better sensor for Nikon, much like it was with IMX094.
That’s why I asked you. Do you actually believe those rumours apply to everything, including the 42 MP sensor?
Normally I would be more careful and suggest those rumours are for the lesser stuff, such as APS-C and 1 inch sensors.
I don’t see the reason not to sell out 42Mp BSI for Sony. It can make good money, while in a year Sony will have a better sensor tech for themselves anyway.
But when I press you for answers, you won’t put any money on when they will be available on 3rd party camera bodies.
Something tells me you’re not entirely sure.
Putting money on future is plain stupid, that’s it. Maybe you are so sure and ready to put money that Sony, despite selling every sensor before, will definitely not sell out their 42Mp one? 😀
It’s just a figure of speech. I’ve pointed out the sensor in the A7S camera, but it’s conveniently counter argued by “it’s because they didn’t want it anyway”, despite it being the best 12 MP FF sensor out there.
That’s why I’m moving to the 42MP BSI sensor, people know they will appear as loons if they say Nikon is interested in the 36 MP, but not the 42 MP.
But the problem is, you’ll just apply the “it’s because they didn’t want it anyway” on the 42 MP sensor in Febuary if it turns out it’s still Sony exclusive.
That’s why I’m asking you for a time frame.
“Best 12Mp FF sensor” in 21st century is only useful for video, which Nikon isn’t very good in anyways. So i think it’s a “they don’t want it” scenario.
As for 42Mp, buyers can skip it for lots of reasons – too expensive, can make own, can buy R&D for a better one, etc. etc. This is actually going in weird ways – you are trying to make people bet on the future while evading the reverse bet from youself. 😀
You’re opening a whole new can of worms: “everybody can just make their own FF BSI sensor”.
Which I simply don’t think is true.
“Too expensive” might sound like a good argument, until you realise Nikon and Leica are know to charge 6-8000 dollars for high end camera bodies.
So it remains that you’re damn sure it’s it’s just a question of time, but you’re unable to commit to any timeframe.
TeddyBear wrote:
“Let’s see, rumor has it Sony sensors are available for market in half a year after initial release in Sony’s own camera. …”
Yes, there is a RUMOR, but it is completely false. There is no determined 6, 12, 18 or whatever time limit.
Kiril Karaatanasov is right here.
A direct quote from Shigeki Ishizuka, the global head of Sony’s Imaging Business:
“When we make sensors we put them in several categories. [At any given time] one category of sensors is reserved purely for Sony cameras – we don’t sell them to other companies. Like the sensor in the A7S. But once we’ve enjoyed this advantage we MIGHT sell them on later, after some time has passed. This is the second category. The third category of sensors is completely generic – the sensors are created for use internally and to sell externally, to anybody. China or Taiwan or wherever.”
Link:
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0661793352/photokina-2014-sony-interview-we-still-need-to-create-more-lenses?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=features&utm_medium=sidebar-block-Homepage&ref=features
One the 12 MP FF
Its basicall the same 144 12 MP Exmor R. Its been on the listed sensors for a while http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/IS/sensor2/products/index.html
IMX117CQT is for sale also. Contact Sony
14MP APS-C sensor, first generation of the 24 MP APS-C sensor, 12 MP FF sensor.
IMX128 and its variations are for sale. Check the Sony list. And Sensors not on the list can be obtained by Calling Sony sensor sales directly.
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/IS/sensor2/products/index.html
Buying the sensor is one thing. Adapting it for your application is another.
Who has the BSI sensor patent ?
“What is Pentax ? ” You must be new to the camera industry to make a remark like that.
Agreed 100%.
I’m VERY glad we have camera makers like Rikoh and Pentax!
Using plants != not competitors.
Apple uses/used Samsung for iphone CPU production. Not competitors too?
Not in the CPU business AFAIK
170 million dollar are nothing.. this is a no deal if you ask me…
Which lens components only Canon makes?
Not good for me… We need competition. As much as i like Sony, i just dont want, that every camera (not canons ofcourse 😀 ) will have a sony-sensor, thats just not good for the market 🙁
I feel this matter is more complex than how you put it.
If Sony’s sensors is the best sensor, I would want all cameras to have Sony’s sensor.
If Canon’s sensors is the best sensor, I would want all cameras to have Canon’s sensor.
Etc.
There is no need to wish inferior sensors on anyone.
That is the only thing that makes sense for me. People who are stuck with 50000 dollar worth of Canon glass should have the chance to use the best sensors with his Canon glass.
If Samsung tomorrow release the best sensors, I would want every camera to use that sensor, because that’s what’s best, and what’s best is good.
ah sorry…. but 170 million dollar does not sound as toshiba has much to sell.
you don´t get a big manufacturing plant for such peanuts.
and i doubt toshiba has many important patents.
A plant is immaterial since that’s the easiest part of the game… What Sony is after is the technology, patents, R & D facilities including the people of course !!!
So Sony would make even better sensors and continue to bury them in A7x bodies?
Dat joke
/s
if they can make A7x new bodies every 6 months in order to get a A7RII in 2016 at the price we could expect A7000, around 1500$ :D, I wont say NO
RX100 line grows in size, each generation is larger than previous
A7x grow in size… so they will be big eventually xD
Really ?
You didn’t choose the top view on purpose, right? But I’m sure you know, that Dimitry was not referring to width and height. So, let me ask you the same question: Really ?
If you have been a bit more thoughtful, you would have realised the whole difference is due to change in lens design, not change in body.
And I doubt he Dimitry was referring to lens design.
Here is another one, just to illustrate my point. I think depth is the most significant value for compactness. You may think different, but that’s my experience and to my knowledge that of many others.
The Ricoh GR for example, is significantly wider than the RX100iv, but has less depth. The GR feels more compact in my hand and in daily use.
To finally answer your question: Yes, really!
The RX100 IV has a fast F1.8 zoom and high quality EVF . The GR has a fixed lens and no viewfinder. Only Ricoh fanboys buy the GR and the RX100 is the #1 rated compact camera on the planet.
I surely think so too
What do you think is the purpose of acquiring a competitor, despite the fact you are already make the best sensors? I’ll tell you what I think:
Less pressure to innovate = the opposite of “even better sensors”
And as a bonus side effect:
Less pressure to make competitive pricing = increasing prices.
I see that you love to write down Sony as being a sinister person who is out to harm your camera prices. But you’re wrong.
Sony is in desperate need of more capacity to satisfy their big customers’ demands. They’re not doing this to harm you.
Toshiba was in trouble, problems created by themselves.
The two meet up and make a deal that benefits both. Sony gets more capacity and Toshiba gets more cash.
That’s all there is to it. A mutual benefit trade.
The alternative would simply be Sony spending even more cash to build more semiconductor fabs. If they did this, it would still be for the sake of increasing their capacity and better tending their clients’ needs, not to harm your camera pricing, or harm their innovation.
Pricing is apart of profit. There’s no Sony strategy to start selling flagship cameras cheap. Their flagship camera hasn’t been released yet. And don’t even think for one minute that the A7rII is the flagship. You will see another model released before the summer Olympics. Sony has to produce a higher fps model
Pricing of higher end cameras are unrelated to this acquisition. It’s simply conspiracy paranoia from your part if you believe Sony is expanding Smartphone sensor capacity just to hurt your wallet.
Oh I certainly agree with you on that. I don’t believe that Sony is expanding smartphone sensor to hurt anyones wallet. My comment was not intended for this section. I posted my comment incorrectly. sorry about that. I’m not in this discussion about this division of Sony at all. So many discussion going on at one time about various divisions of Sony :). I can’t keep track.
It’s fine, we all make mistakes.
Is A7RM2 running out of stock? Are customers queuing for preorders?
I was talking about clients like Apple and Xiaomi, they need large shipments of sensors all the time, because there are billions of smartphones being made and sold.
Growing markets like China and India love their smartphones too.
Sony makes these expansions for the smartphone sensors.
This is one of those posts I think is a bit flamboyant in the fanatic mind.
Sony’s growth in the sensor market could lead to better sensor for Sony cameras, yes, because r+d money will be more easily funded.
But, competition is good and Sony growing market share could also mean stagnant development (think Canon DSLR) and if it was to reach monopoly, think of the possible prices.
Let’s not bask into blind cheering.
Bask into blind cheering?
Anyway, as a user of Sony cameras and not a stockholder, this doesn’t seem like a good thing. It’ll mean less competition, and probably less improvement, especially after the gains in IP have been integrated into Sony sensors.
Good for shareholders, and Sony’s marketshare, though.
I believe that Sony is fairly far from any sort of monopoly and stagnating technology wise has never ever been in Sony’s DNA so I cannot imagine this happening anytime soon or ever…
Probably a good move for SONY. One has to remember lots sensor business is outside the camera world as we know it. Motion controlled items, Virtual Reality, robotics, automobiles, etc all use sensors to some degree. Those non traditional camera uses for sensor technology is only going to grow.
too much monopoly is far from a good thing
Well, Canon ain’t putting up much of a fight, so…
Canon is fighting back by pusing thier current tech as far as they can, and lots of marketing hype.
A. 4 milion iso..camera of only 2mp
A 2010 anounced 120 mp sensor
And a 250 mp sensor.
Sony would never publicly hype/marked/promote prototypes that are still years away from actual prodution, a forewarned will have more advanced sesors to blow these out of the water when they do come out.
Canon realizes that thier future camera dominence is at risk and is fighting back…the sleeping giant is awake, but has Canon slept too long?
All I see is a lot of smoke and a lot of retreats.
-Their 50 Mp camera was an attempt to address Nikon’s D800 from 3 years ago, you’ll notice the 50vs.36 coffee cups they had on display at launch. Canon got that into the market 3 years too late. Not only that, they also got caught in the bed by Sony’s BSI technology.
-Their 2 Mp camera is just another retreat to a higher price point. They don’t actually want to confront the A7S head to head.
-Their 120 Mp sensor is hot air and hasn’t materialised. I think even Canon knows nobody is going to be afraid of another APS-H sensor with just as bad DR as their 50 Mp sensor.
-Their 250 Mp supposedly addresses the above. “please be afraid of my new full frame sensor, I swear I’ll release it soon”.
Half the products are empty air, the other half is 3 years too late and in retreat.
How are Canon’s products are hot air? Five years ago Canon has 22MP cameras at best, now 50MP. How is demonstration of high MP sensors is hot air? I’m sure 5 years from today we’ll see 100MP Canon’s cameras based on 250MP sensor design.
You guys are pathetic. If a manufacturer shows innovations, it’s bad. If it doesn’t, that’s bad too.
On the top of everything, at what ISO range Sony’s sensor are better than Canon sensors? Don’t you think that such a small difference will not destroy Canon, you guys live in a parallel universe.
100 Mp and 250 Mp from Canon is hot air by definition, because they don’t exist. Canon’s semiconductor fabs are simply not up to par compared to the rest of the industry. That’s why it took them 3 whole years to respond to Nikon’s D800.
They do not exist in your imagination. Canon already showed test cameras with these sensors, as well as photographs and videos from these cameras.
It took them 3 years to respond to D810 because Canon users did not ask for 22+MP camera. Even now, much more people prefer 20+MP vs. 30-50MP cameras. I can also say it took Nikon 3 years to respond to Canon 5diii.
Facts are, if you look at pretty much any manufacturer, you can find amazing pieces of technology to use and produce great results. It’s up to you to choose what you like, but it doesn’t mean than everything else is garbage. Keep yourself more objective.
I doubt anyone with any sense wrote that Canon was garbage. The only thing is that Canon has perhaps rested excessively on the advent that they are market leaders and this lead them to be late and to have to catch up technology wise… Meantime they have to fill the void with some PR and communications which can be rather difficult unless it is supported by an existing product. In what has essentially become a commoditised market, consumers can switch brand very rapidly indeed.
Nikon didn’t spend 3 years responding. Nikon actual released the D800 on the same month as 5Diii. Superior body, 500 dollars cheaper.
Not to mention the sensor was advanced cutting edge for the time using 180nm process.
In comparison Canon was still slugging around with old 500nm process that hadn’t been updated for over a decade. You cannot say this is amazing technology, the right word for this is obsolete technology.
It was easy to see how Canon had felt inadequate and inferior all along. When they finally had a sensor with higher resolution, they were so eager to show off the coffee cup comparisons.
As for your “test cameras”, they’ve been hot air from 2010 until now. At this point, they are almost on the same tier at Pentax Full Frame in terms of vapour.
wow, you are dillusional. I own and use both brands. Fuji, Sony, and Canon. I would be a total fool to leave my other two cameras and use solely my Sony one. I need more than just specs. Most photographers do. I normally only carry one Canon lense, however that body still comes along.
It’s common knowledge that Canon’s semiconductor fabs are archaic and not up to par. This has been covered extensively by chipworks and other such websites who have access to electron microscope analysis.
When someone says it’s a common knowledge, usually that shows that this person lacks argumentation.
There is plenty of argumentations here:
http://www.chipworks.com/about-chipworks/overview/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-part-ii-canon-stays-course
Canon fabs = old and busted.
Again, do you mind telling me at what ISO range do Canon sensors show lower dynamic range versus SONY/Nikon?
I believe MacReady already addressed that remark to you 6 posts above above.
And he did it wrong. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0afabae196a167dcfd6ad0d0855cc44c85e7cdf631b5f24e85625e6906baf08a.png
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a7r/sony-a7rA5.HTM
Thanks for helping him showing you how inferior Canon’s sensor is against an older Sony sensor.
Yeah, don’t forget this 5diii was released almost 4 years ago. And again, Canon’s sensors are inferior to Sony sensors, BUT at a relatively narrow range of ISO. Not true? What’s the point of arguing? Just for sake of it?
5Diii was released the same month Nikon D800 was released. They are both 3 years old.
Canon’s sensor was outdated the day it released.
So, didn’t you say that 5diii sensor was inferior to the OLDER Sony sensor? So, if they both released 3 years ago, then they use the same generation of sensors, not older and not newer, don’t they?
The D800 does use an older Sony sensor. Sony now has an even newer sensor, the Full Frame BSI sensor.
Canon’s 5Diii is inferior to both Sony’s older sensor and Sony’s newer sensor. But that it kind of stating the obvious.
Well, based on the graph I showed you, it’s not that obvious at ISO higher 800. But if it obvious for you…
There are many fotographers who consider ISO 100 to ISO 1600 to be more important.
But if higher ISO levels are important to you, the new BSI sensor address that in full.
Who cares?
Dynamic range and low light capabilities is what lacks with Canon products sensors. The Canon colorimetry is fantastic I would say. They just need better sensors.
Pretty much the whole ISO range with 1 to 2 EV more shadow range at low ISO, around 0.5 EV cleaner shadows and midtones at medium ISO’s and up to 1.5 EV cleaner shadows at the ultra high ISO’s. And that extra low ISO range can be applied in low light shots that usually require higher ISO’s too through digital amplification in post (thus retaining much more highlight information with similar noise levels, see Dpreview examples and explanations the past months).
That is fair enough but Canon still get the revenues from camera sales which Sony does not get. The revenues may allow Canon to push a task force R & D and come up with something great. If they don’t do this then there might be trouble ahead but I trust they’ll do something fast…
One thing is certain though: No one from either Canon and Nikon saw Sony coming after they launched the first NEX-3 and NEX-5 cameras… I bought the NEX-5 from launch and have never quit Sony since and went through NEX-6, A7r and now A7r mk2. It is a great journey during which I did great shots with great cameras !
But remain in the field being used
The 2Mp and 50Mp cameras will not be used by many at all. They are products distancing themselves from the majority of the market.
4m ISO camera is a surveillance camera and camera for industry use. Do you think anyone would want to have 30+MP surveillance camera? Canon’s camera dominance is not at risk at all, just look at the quality of Canon and Sony’s native lenses, which last for decades. Bodies and sensors… well, if Canon comes up with the revolutionary new sensor, and this may well happen, then Sony will loose the only advantage it has over Canon – it’s sensor.
Lieca has just made a pro style mirrorless body.
Sony needs to look at what a pro level mirrorless camera should look like and add someting like this to thier own E mount camera line…..with the latest Sony sensors of course.
Agree, I wish Sony made a pro camera, like 1dx or d4, mirrorless or not.
I don’t think the concept of 20000 dollar surveillance cameras with 2000 dollar lenses will work.
There comes a point when the surveillance camera becomes more valuable than the house they are protecting.
At the point, the thieves will just steal the surveillance camera and the lens instead of breaking in.
This is not a surveillance camera for your house. Did you watch promo video of ME20F-SH? If you did not, you can watch and see what applications it can be used for. Here’s the link if you’re interested http://cweb.canon.jp/bctv/lineup/multipurpose/movie.html
The video is showing the crew lugging around with a camera set worth 30000 dollars, and using them as a hobbyist would, filming their daughter on a fire place, using it as dashcam ontheir car.
I don’t think that’s any better either. This won’t work out as a hobbyist camera, nor will it work as surveillance camera for anyone’s house.
Maybe not your house. hahahaha
Well, if they are hobbyists, do you mind showing all of us your professional video work?
I said they were showcasing how a hobbyist would use the camera, nothing more, nothing less.
Rediculous, Surveillance cameras are not merely for homes. Come on now. You’re a lot more intelligent than that stamement. It’s about commercial, military, museums, etc. And there are plenty of multi-million dollar homes with more than 20k of security systems. What idiot thieves would spend their time breaking into a multi-million dollar home to remove surveillance equipment? Only a stupid one.
The point if they don’t even need to break in. they will just take the nice Canon lenses you’re offering them for free.
I guess that’s why they are number one. FACEPALM
Tosiba is currently 1.9% of the market, Sony 40%
Purchase price is about $163, 000
$165 Million
http://www.engadget.com/2015/10/24/toshiba-said-selling-its-camera-sensor-business/
Sony rolls on..purchasing Toshiba and recently Softkinetic.
In an effort to avoid buying sensors exclusively from Sony, Nikon has often been buying Toshiba sensors. They will need to come up with a differrent strategy now.
Samsung seems to have left the camera business for real this time, despite recent deniels of it.
Newspapers all over report the plant closed and personel transfered to other devisions.
I am hoping rhis will speed up development of Quanta sensors.
Quanta sensors count every photon.
It is digital X x Y x T
Over a billion jots would fill a ff size sensor and resample hundreds of thousands of times per second.
Each jot either detects a photon during the readout or does not…its binary….
The sensor does not have or do the followind things we are used to
Pixels
Dynamic. Range
Iso
Shutter
The processor determines the equivelent of these functions.
For example 100 jots wide x 100 jots tall x 300 time units would be eguivelent to ..
1000mp
At 1 /1000 second exposure
Dynamic range from 0-30,000,000
Each of these qualities can be increased or decreased at will based on user/processer/firmware choices.
The sensor itself is practically unlimited, however it generates terabytes of data/second.
Processors would have to be developed to deal with that much data without severe overheating…they would of course be throwing most of that data away.
Quanta was first reported in 2013
Developed at dartmouth, by the inventor of the CMOS it actually utilizes most of todays current. CMOS production technigue…it was deliberately desighned to be compatable with current manufacturing…and it is not expected to be excessively expensive to produce.
Without a doubt, of the current technologies this represents the most advanced , promising future sensor possibility.
Whoever perfects this first will lead the sensor world.
We are stiil years away from being able to harness the power of the Quanta sensor…I would guess maybe 10 years…but
Unlimited resolution
Unlimited speed
Unlimited sensitivity
These were the 3 key predictions of a Sony roadmap/presentation slide by Sony a year or two ago.
I can not think of any other technology that Sony could have been describing.
That’s really fascinating. I’m glad a chose to move into my professional future with Sony.
and the cpu will be a quantum cpu – problem solved
I looked up quantum cpu…but still need to read a lot more about it.So I may be revising my comments on this subject.
So far they have just broken the 100 q byte threshold, so this tecnology is still in its infancy.
The potention is for much higher speeds, much less noise, and most importantly much less heat.
So at first glance I like your idea.
I gave it some more thought to your quantum processor suggestion.
I have also been wondering how a Quant sensor would hsndle color data, and I came up with this idea, but not sure if it would all work or how.
Quantum processors use 0 and 1 like a normal prosessor , but also distinguish between 2 quantum states.
Therefore each bit has 4 states as opposed to 2 states of a normal bit.
And of course this is geometric so the difference is huge.
If the jots of a Quanta sensor were quantum jots then each jot would have 4 possible states…if those states could be made to correspond to the wavelength of the photon striking the jot we could have
Red
Green
Blue
Zero
Now if they were to use stacked sensor tech and put Quantom processing elements directly on the sensor….the Quanta sensor might actually be made to work, plus it might differentiate every color at every jot position.
and it will have a nuclear battery – another problem solved
aren’t you afraid a nuclear battery can cause noise on a hypersensitive quanta sensor?
Toshiba a99II.
Sony has been plagued by stupid decisions in the past. Remember how Walkman dominated the market?? Then along came Apple …
Cameras are just a small part of the sensor business—Samsung ain’t going away.
You are mixing Apples and Oranges. The portable Walkmans from Sony and Aiwa (owned by Sony) were in fact very good. However the portable media players from Sony sucks and I can say this because I bought one. It would only play their proprietary Atrac file format, so had you to convert the mp3 files first. The Ipod was much better designed and easier to use.
The Sony camera is another division, not operating under the Sony sensor division.
Sony van invent and launch top products like the Walkman but they may not have the monopoly of the good ideas… even though they have many top ideas !
They just did. LOL.
Well in the end it was Toshiba’s own fault .
So what will Canon do to keep up.
My prediction
CANON WILL DEVELOPE AND PERFECT FOVEON.
Notice I said FOVEON
Not foveon like, not Canon 3 layer organic sensor but actual FOVEON sensor
That , I believe is the next big secret Canon has up thier sleeve.
This is my own prediction.
I have absolutely no proof to back it up, but I am quite confident I am correct.
Please remember you heard it from me first.
That would be cool. 😀
Not good. Less competition = less innovation & increasing prices.
Re “Maybe in 2-3 years from now Sony’s E-mount cameras will be a generation ahead of the competition . . .” And maybe in 2-3 years from now Sony’s a-mount cameras will be ahead of both of them.
LOL
Agree!
I do agree with you that Canon is an absolute behemoth. And their brand is very strong in everyday consumers’ minds. It’s good for them that they still have favourable mindshare among consumers to support them.
But this can only last maybe another decade at best. If their R&D fails to make top products, they will be in trouble eventually as you noted. This kind of consumer trust won’t last forever.