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(SR4) Sony working on 8K (A99 alike) cameras to be released in 2016 at best.

Bildschirmfoto 2014-09-28 um 14.26.21

Innovation never stops and 4K is just one step into the future. The camera you see on top is the Arri Alexa 65 which already records 6K. And how is Sony going to answer Arri’s move?
One of our sources told us Sony did show a new 8K camera prototype to the BBC studio. The source present at the event said the camera looked like the current Sony A99 but had a built-in vertical grip. Sony told them they could start to sell that kind of camera as early as 2016.

P.S.: $300 off on the A99 and free vertical grip included too at Amazon, Adorama and BHphoto.

 

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  1. Why bother with the 4K now when 8K is just around the corner? Awesome news! Where would one find the lenses for 8K? ^^

    1. Where do we find screens for 8K? How big do they have to be to be meaningful? Where do we find the bandwidth to stream 8K that won’t be youtube or vimeo (both of which compress all footage to degrade its real quality – vimeo being the better choice) When will the reality hit that for all intents and purposes 300-350dpi is enough for the human eye to perceive high resolution at normal reading distance (40-50cm). I have yet to meet someone who can see the difference between a 720 and 1080 video on a HD 1080p 5″ smartphone.

      I think Andreas Gursky’s prints dpi is 100-150… I can’t remember where I read that.

      1. Getting a raw 8K full-sensor-readout (with bayer pattern) will produce significantly better 4K than most of the current 4K cameras. It is the same advantage you get at the moment, when you record 4K and downsample it to 1080p.

        If you want to produce footage for IMAX cinemas, true 8K output makes sense. As this dows not really fit into your living room, I am sure that someday there wil be glasses with built in displays, that opticalle simulate such an IMAX projection.

        Looks like the weakest point in that chain will become the eye-sight.

        1. yes, until we invent some technology of beaming images directly into our brains, it seems the megapixel race will have to stop because evolution cannot keep up, not to mention other kinds of infrastructure.

          then again, people who predict the use of future technologies have been known to be disastrously wrong.

        2. As I mention above to Sham, while I see the practicality of down sampling, I wouldn’t be in the market for a 4K camera if my intent is to have better color 1080. My reasoning for owning a 4K capable camera is to be able to future proof this material so it has to be good at 4K already and not the crappy 4K as seen in the Panasonic RX10-ish camera.

      2. Exactly. Analogue film crystals actually top out on resolution much lower than 4k, but the big difference is that they are not in a fixed pixel grid, so the ‘local resolution’ varies quite a lot. A feature like a skin pore could be ‘high resolution’ (high dpi) for one frame, but soft for another. This gives you the ‘sharp but at the same time soft’ feel of analogue film.

        Neither 4k nor 8k DV have this look. The best way to emulate it is not actually resolution, but bit depth: color bleeds into adjacent pixels, thus emulating a varying analogue resolution far better than increased digital resolution.
        Of course, the internet thinks resolution is the big thing because you can measure it easier than color (which is subjective and like analogue film resolution, varies form frame to frame), but the ‘look’ is just not there for high resolution DV. 4k footage looks like video and not film, and who wants 4k video. The only thing 4k (and probably 8k) gives you in prosumer gear is the ability to crop, and that will be the case for some time because internet compression rates (and home screens) are way behind the cameras.

        1. i agree with you about color being more important, but if you have more resolution, you can down-res to improve color depth.

          1. Yes, good point.
            I’ve seen that argument made for the GH4 by Andrew Read over as EOSHD, but it works both ways: you can take raw output from a Bolex or BMCC and upres it! In fact, that’s one of the best ways to get high quality footage into youtube from raw cameras (it forces youtube to take full advantage of the better color at 1080p)
            The resolution reduction argument on its own is not justification for higher resolution, IMO. A good flat raw or Prores output from a high dynamic range sensor, with 1080p to 2.5k is the way to go. That takes you closer to Alexa and other current award winning film cameras, and gives you something close to industry standard post workflows. Downrezing is a hack, and not in the same ballpark.

        2. There are many factors to consider what “the look” is. Everyone has a different approach or different sensitivity when it comes to nailing “the look”. For some, like you say, its the colour or the DR. For others is the way motion is rendered in a mixture of fps, shutter angle, and camera movement.

          I think resolution has little to do with any look except more resolution. That being said, I wouldn’t pay a premium for 8K, or even today for 4K, to down sample. I know it improves color flexibility, especially for post, but my idea of having 4K gear today is to future proof with the material at that resolution so I would post produce with that resolution and export in the needed res.

      3. it will be fun to crop and zoom around on footage, something I am doing now with photography, thanks to higher-res sensors. It actually saves on lugging more lenses and some equipment.

          1. This article is about a 70mm format imaging system. what does that have to do with a 8K 35mm sensor?

            anyway anyone who’s used an A7R knows that many lenses under the Otus actually do outresolve the sensor when stoppped down a bit, just not into the far extremes. at 16:9 the corners get cut off anyway.

    2. What we know from current 36 MP cameras is: While not many lenses are perfectly sharp over the whole field of view right into all four corners while used fully open, virtually all normal lenses do profit from such a sensor, and even somewhat mediocre ones will resolve quite well when stopped down, at least in a large central area.

      Then again, personally I couldn’t care less for 8K video, as my 39″ TV offers only 720p and I’m perfectly happy with it…

    3. Although I am always interested in new technologies, I doubt that the industry will be able to deliver proper peripheral equipment as fast as the resolution grows.

      Let’s consider 8k consumer cam would record at 200Mbps, 1h video would be 90GB data.
      Raw recording at 24fps interlaced, 4:4:4 and 12bit would give the tiny file size of ~7TB.
      So one would have bad luck with it either way – being pro or consumer.

      Second thing is the broadcasting. Many provider are still sending in 720p. Commitment for full coverage of 4k is given for 2017.
      At current times the biggest challenge is proper cable and connector material as well as enough bandwith on wired or wireless networks.

  2. An A-Mount 8k camera with a vertical grip? That sounds like the promised pro segment.
    “A99-like” means A-Mount, right? Or it’s just the body shape, and it’s an E-Mount again? In this case, it would be the first big E-Mount DSLR-shaped camera, which is also interesting

  3. So the A99II isn’t even out yet but is already obsolete? Should be buy the A99II in 2015 and the 8K camera in 2016?

    1. If I were you, I’d wait for the 32K camera which should be available by 2024. Actually, the 8K camera is “already obsolete”, too.

  4. Good Luck with competing with Arri. The original Alexa is only 2.5K and still the camera used by any single film nominated for a technical Oscar last year. It has been an Industry workhorse for quite a while now. Cinema Cameras are not only about resolution, other factors as dynamic range, colour rendition, reliability and output options are far more important. Don’t get me wrong Sony has amazing sensors and they really have the edge on Broadcast but they are far from competing with Arri in the Cinema Sector. The F65 is a great camera as have been the F3, F5, F55 and F35 but still Arri is and always has been the Industry standard. It all is about consistency. Arri has proven to consistently build reliable high quality gear in a specialised sector. Why should anyone with a large budget take the risk to switch to another company if there is an offering from a company that has proven itself over decades.

    1. I remember similar defense of Nikon and Canon. They always have been and always will be the innovative, market leaders in photography… Right?

      1. Cinematography is different, the sector these Cameras are in are big budget productions, advertising tv shows etc. . It’s not about one guy operations like you see them in Photography. The focus on what is important is different on such a set. Having a proven tool that is reliable is far more important than one single performance aspect as Resolution. Missing a time Target can be hilariously expensive.

        I can give you an insight from an other sector.
        For a subcontractor of one major car brand in Germany the penalties of delivering parts late are so high that they rather fly them in by helicopter sometimes then delivering them an hour late.

    2. Yes, it’s really funny how photographers laugh about smartphone users boasting about their 41MP camera, but when it’s about video, they think resolution is everything. Shoot a high dynamic range outdoor scene with an inexpensive BlackMagic and any of the current “video shooting” still cameras of Nikon/Canon/Sony. Can’t believe your eyes? Well, you could have guessed it: there’s more to a video camera than resolution. Sony has a long way to go before the big screen abandons Arri.

    3. I agree with what you say about the strength of Arri. there is no doubt about it.
      Yet Sony cinema cameras are as well regarded, since they have a record track of being as reliable and rugged. The F65 at the moment holds the best image quality of all.
      Arri has the advantage of being the industry leader since long time and it is better established than anybody else in the rental companies around the world. It seems also that Arri cameras are slightly easier than Sony F65 to operate.

  5. Arii is Arri and Sony is Sony. Fighting with Arri is pointless.
    Real next step is use technology from 3CCD/3CMOS with super35 sensor(s) 🙂

    1. In 2007 you would have told us competing with Nokia is pointless, but where are Nokia now, only 7 years later …

  6. While the news here is about 8k, the point about the Arri camera is its 54.12 x 25.58 mm sensor (which happen to have 19 mp) versus the FF 36 x 24 mm. That means you need medium format lenses. That’s like for Imax kind of movies. And you can rent the camera only. BBC however is a broadcaster, and more Sony’s market. So this 8k thing is no answer whatsoever to Arri.

    1. I just played with my bitrate calculator.
      128k Video recorderd at 120fps interlaced, 64bit colordepth and 4:4:4 would be roughly 50.000 TB per hour video, so you would need the NSA data center as recorder for your camera.
      And you would need support from your telcoms provider – your connection would need 100 Tbps. 🙂

      1. youre missing one point. future picture/movie encoding will be vector based, so you can scale it as much you like. no pixels anymore. but i do agree, this is gonna take 10-15 years. (there are several working projects already today)

        1. I didn’t take my post serious, did you? 🙂
          Of course there will be something going on in the future regarding specifications and codecs. This gag calc was just based on a current spec.

      2. >so you would need the NSA data center as recorder for your camera.

        If you save to the cloud this already happens anyway, so we’re all ready to go!

  7. great but not so much. Samsung NX1 photocamera already does internal 7K.
    Soon it will be done by the cheaper Samsung NX400, for about 800 usd…

    “I questioned Samsung on the readout resolution, because 28MP is a long way from the 8MP of 4K. 28MP is more like 7K! The answer had my jaw on the floor. Their sensor is able to do a full pixel readout at up to 30fps in 7K and so there’s no crop in 4K video mode. The image processor appears to be doing a very good job of scaling the 7K raw output from the sensor to 4K and Ultra HD. I didn’t try the 1080p modes but the camera does have a selection of these at up to 60fps and in slow-mo mode at the equivalent speed of conforming 90fps to 30fps, so in the ballpark of the GH4. Quality in this mode looked good but there’s a reason Samsung doesn’t state the frame rate in the menus for this. Slow-mo on the camera interpolates frames similar to Twixtor, so expect some trade-off in image quality because of that.” (c) eoshd.com

    1. to add more, the upcoming NX400, especially NX400EVF will most probably effectively challenge A6000/A5100.
      Especially if NX400EVF will have touch screen.
      Apart from A6000/A5100 the NX400EVF would provide
      – 4k video with space-efficient H.265 codec
      – EVF plus touch screen. Some combination, the nex owners are hoplessly struggling getting from sony for years.
      So the whole sony e-mount APS-C market share might be completely eaten up within a year or so. Because marketing of SUCH a camera might be quite effective: there is something to show, and quite impressive to show. This will be a presentation-comparison of the 4k video vs poor A6000/A5100 720p realy (as the real resolution of these camer’s video is just a 720p, not more than that.
      Though Sony put more and more to the e-mount. The mostly sold one’s are e-mount APSC’s. Crash of the e-mount APS-C sales, which is quite likely to happen, because of the real competitor to come, might hit Sony quite heavy. Unless Sony will start really thinking how to remore the artificial limitations from their nex camera line (ok, alpha line)

      1. This is like reading Apple news. If some competitor brings some product in the future, that is better than Sony, then Sony might be in trouble. Conclusion, Sony is in trouble.
        If you really believe that some 4K codec and a touch screen will “completely eat” Sony’s market,… I don’t know what to say.

      2. Which is what I predicted here a long time ago, Sony putting their efforts into Emount and then finding themselves overtaken by other mirrorless companies.

        After abandoning Amount users in favor of chasing the Emount rainbow they will not be left with anyone buying their lowend Emount because of Samsung etc. Their lowend Amount cameras will not exist so there will be no future highend users of either mount as a result.

        Hope their mobile business does well, it’s all they will have after treating their APS-C users like dirt!

    2. this doesn’t say it “does internal 7k” — that’d mean it records 7k video internally. the sensor readout is only the first step.

      1. that’s true, for sure. but it also shows that the sensor is 7K capable, which is just unbelieveable. so far the sensor readout speed was always considered the bottleneck.
        and if it would be any substantial market demanded, the 7K video would be provided by just next camera version. because the compression and storing of such a video does not seem to be a problem for Samsung engineers, I believe.

    3. According to DPreview- Samsung now falls just slightly behind Sony in global mirrorless market share. The NX1 is very impressive, cheap as dirt and no reason to think Samsung’s agressive strategy won’t pay off in the camera market. Even for FE users, the road ahead for Sony is going to be a very bumpy one if they can’t offer a complete system for it’s users.

        1. Yeah, on a side note I’m regreting selling my A900 now. I know I’ll end up with an A7 but I really don’t care- it’s not the same. If the A99 drops a bit more than maybe I’ll grab that one.

      1. Not that surprising – for quite a long time you could barely buy a samsung tablet without getting the offer of a mirrorless camera shoved down your throat.

        More telling would be lens sales volumes or $ instead of volume market share.

  8. For years now I have been telling all these people who only whatch thier pictures on thier tv sreens that 24mp will not be enough…here is the proof of what I have been saying…and your entire photo libraries will not even fill your new 8k screen….unless you are still using a vacuem tube model.

      1. lol, this post has to have the greatest ratio of up-votes to words, ever.

        btw I gave it an up-vote

      1. One of the slowest creatures in the Amazon is the Two Toed Sloth. It evades detection by moving so slow that even Lotus Eater is faster.
        The dumbest of all mammals though is the Porcipine With no need to think it is so dumb that even Lotus Eater is smarter.
        The most hated and feared creature of all is a small fish called the Candiru. The natives believe this fish is attracted to urine and will swim up the penis and become permenently lodged. The Candiru is so nasty that even Lo…….never mind about the Cadiru.

      2. Well, why dont you teach us, uneducated fools, why all upscalers, and I mean all of them, at the output, look crappier than the native resolution….
        Here we all are, some talking about jpg engine being bad, some craving for more resolution, some swearing by RAW format. But here you are, the smartest of all, effectively telling people that they can upscale their native files, be it stills or video, to higher resolution, and get the same result as with better hardware.

        If thats not an attempt at trolling, I dont know what is…

        1. He does not care about upscaling ….Lotus Eater follows my posts and makes whatever insult he can come up with…he has been stalking my comments for years.

          1. You haven’t even been here for “years”, Barry. You are confusing stalking with the fact I respond to your comments more frequently than others due to you talking sh*t a disproportionately larger amount than others.

        2. Way to miss the point. Barry said that current photo libraries wouldn’t fill the screen, which, as with most things he says, is completely false.

          I didn’t say anything about getting the same result.

          1. That is your own deleberately distorted interprtation of what I said….please accurately guote my own statemen…preferrably in its entirety and let people make thier own decision…if you choose to re-interpret what I have said then please make it clear that those are your own statements…not mine.
            Furthermore unlike you I do not remain anonymous and my identity is readily accessable.
            I do not however keep posting my weblink as I am not commenting to promote myself..
            Since based on your comments you are clearly not a fan of my comments I fail to see why you are promoting my website.
            To be clear…I am in no way affiliated with you , I have not authorized any of your comments…and in no way do you represent me.
            Furthermore you are not authorized to use any trademarks or copyrighted materials belonging to me and if you do so it is without my permision.

          2. LOL

            I am not using any of your trademarks or copyrighted material. There are no laws to prevent me pasting your trade name or website into a post.

            I recommend you think very carefully why I might be doing this. You might want to consider why it might not be in your best interest to continue trolling here.

          3. Once again …and I realize this is a repetitive answer to your repetitive line of comments…
            I do not share your interpretation of trolling…but you are free to believe what you want.
            If you or anyone find my comments annoying , offensive, or any other adjective you may choose..than you can simply skip, ignore or tollerate them..I do not impose them on you, and in fact encourage you not to read them if they disturb you.
            Why you choose instead to answer, insult, and confront me, and even ..if I correctly interpret your last sentence..imply that bad things will happen to me if I continue to post here is beyond my understanding.
            I do not seek out you or anyone here and any hostile comments I make are solely in direct response to those made to me…I do not seek out a confrontation with anyone.

          4. I have removed the last comment. I had no intention of implying something bad will happen.

            I think you simply need to consider how your poor behaviour here affects your reputation.

            The problem is that you see absolutely no issue with your behaviour and that it is not your problem. I am pretty certain I am not alone in saying you are a very negative influence in this forum. Some of your comments may well be constructive but, more often than not, you appear to be deliberately antagonising people. It is selfish, rude and quite frankly highly narcissistic. It is not the behaviour of a mature and well adjusted human being.

  9. Pure nonsense. In the US, we stil have zero broadcasts in 1080 60p on TV, in 2014. It’s either SD or even if it’s HD it’s either 720p or 1080i.

    We are still a few years away getting all 1080p broadcasts on TV.

    As for 4K. 100% of Hollywood movies in 2014, even if shot in 4k, will be mastered and released as 2K in theaters. That’s 2014.

    There are no 4K theaters at all in some of the wolrds largest markets,, like India, with Bollywood movies. It will cost India billions of dollars to upgrade all their theaters to 4K, and realistically speaking, even in theaters, 4k is still 5 to 10 years away — maybe even more.

    You can make 8K cameras all you want, but adoption, where you can actually watch movies in theaters in 8K, is at least 30 to 50 years away.

    1. 30 to 50 years away? Are you mad? Red cameras have had the ability to capture in 6k for a while now, so 8k isn’t far fetched. 8k for theater projection makes sense given that viewing in 2k to 4k on a 50 foot screen is a downgrade from traditional super 35mm film projection (theorized to have an equivalent of approximately 8k to 10k). One hurdle to digital projection is that theater owners haven’t been too keen on paying for far more expensive projectors (vs film) or replace working projectors so that studios can save money.

      I don’t know what viewing in 30 to 50 years will be like, but getting to 8 digital distribution isn’t going to take anywhere near that long. Apple just released a 5k monitor (attached to an iMac) last week.

      1. Do you have a reading comprehension? Even if a movie are shot on Red cameras, they are released in 2K. There are no movies that were released in 4K in 2014.

        Take for example Prometheus. Shot on Red, Edited and released in 2K.

        Read my post again. There are ZERO broadcasts in the US in 1080p. It’s either SD or 1080i, despite the fact that 1080p cameras and TVs have been around for 10 years.,

        It will take at least 10 more years before you can go to any theater and watch movies in 4K. Even if shot on 4K cameras, the movies are edited and released in 2K.

        It will take billions of dollars to upgrade all theaters to 4K.

        8k is 30 to 50 years away.

        1. Any theatre? There are several 4k theatres in LA already and Lie-Max is converting its 2k theatres (maddeningly only) 4k. And Prometheus was already a while ago. Most major films (and more and more indie projects–hell, even wedding videos) are shooting, editing, and mastering in 4k. Every argument you’re trying to make was the exact same argument made by hacks who had invested heavily in their SD gear when HD was on the horizon 15 years ago. 4k is here(ish) and at least for event films and personal video devices (Imax VR goggles for the couch-bound), 8k is coming soon. And yeah, broadcast might get left behind, boo-hoo.

          1. How many movies were released in 4k in theaters in 2014? Zero. Even if there are a few 4K theaters in LA, the 2K movies are upscaled to 4K. No one is editing and releasing movies in 4K, even if they are shooting on 4K cameras. The movies are all released in 2K in 2014.

            Given that it will cost billions of dollars to upgrade hundreds of thousands of theaters in some of the worlds largest markets (India,China), 4K is still 5 to 10 years away.

        2. Prometheus edited in 2K? Ok now I know you are full of it. You might want to leave out the attitude as wel, this isn’t youtube. Anyone can post opinions as facts, how about pointing to some sources?

      2. In the U.K. we have had 4K cinema for several years, certainly every cinema near me that sits more than 25 people has a 4K projector… Almost all the TV channels offer an HD option too. I find it hard to believe that American companies such as Discovery and Nat Geo offer HD channels to the rest of the world but not to the US. Also, US TV is broadcast at 30p and I don’t think there will be plans for 60p for a very long time, if ever, as it can produce funny effects to the audience.

        1. It’s 1080i or 720p version of HD. There is no 1080p broadcasts in the US.

          There are some 4K theaters in the US too, but they are just upscaling 2K movies to 4K. Just because you were watching it in a 4K theater doesn’t mean the movie was released in 4K. They just upscale 2K movies. Even if shot on 4K cameras, movies are edited and released as 2K in 2014 as vast majority of theaters (99.9%) are 2K.

        2. I’ve had Discovery HD & Nat Geo HD for many years (here in the US) though I’m fine with 30p – viewing native 1080/60p looks a bit unnatural.

    2. It’s true that old people love their TV networks and love to think that they will determine the rate of technological adoption that takes place across the planet. You may have missed it, but that is no longer the case. Many of us have already moved on and taken to Internet streaming (which has been serving up to 4K rez content since 2010). 4K Smart TVs and mobile devices are the future, not broadcast. H.265 & HEVC are going to demolish the networks. Networks are already clamoring to sell “original content” to Netflix and Amazon rather than air it themselves. Hollywood has already begun to release some movies in tandem with Amazon streaming… the world is a changing.

  10. Wtf? 8k technology exists but Sony is crippling current cameras? Give us 8k in all current models, Sony! DO YOU LISTEN? DON’T IGNORE CUSTOMERS!
    8k is needed to compete, I won’t buy another camera without it even though video means nothing to me. Stop twisting our genitalia Sony! GIVE us the full experience of having 8k hardware today!
    The road ends in doom with only 4k or even less. Stop the madness!

  11. Dear Sony, give me a FE 50mm 1.4, 135mm 1.8 APO and 85mm 1.4 Zeiss. That’s all I’m waiting for. Come on man, just get it over with.

  12. dear sony, make a 35mm and 85 mm f2 lenses, no one actually needs paper thin depth of field and certainly doesn’t need to carry all the weight

  13. what this post does not mention is that the new Alexa has a large 65mm size sensor and that that it will be distributed to Arri rental Houses only. Not for Sale.

  14. I think what we need at the moment is a 4k A99 successor with A77 II technology! And the price must be under 2500$. That could give Sony a huge advantage in the market.

  15. Oh goodie, higher resolution.

    Too bad they’re doing that instead of doing something far more useful like increasing framerate…

  16. Sony already have an 8K camera.

    The F65.

    The F65 has always shot in 8K.
    It’s just that the software wasn’t available to debayer the image to 8K right at the start when the camera came out. The software and the SDK was released later.

    4K for TV drama is finally starting to take off in a big way from towards the end of 2013.
    The Sony F55 is really popular now.
    It really rivals Alexa use for TV drama.

    Alexa is still very popular, but it isn’t the only game in town now.

    Unfortunately Sony have more or less dropped promotion of the F65.
    It is a shame because it is a hell of a camera.
    The image quality is on another planet compared to Alexa and everything else.

    Even the F55 has considerably less noise and a bit more dynamic range than Alexa.
    Not that it matters though.
    The Alexa is an awesome camera and everyone loves it.

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