Just a short notice about the new A58 sensor. As I told you it has 20 Megapixels. I’ve now been told by one source that this sensor should have a “greatly improved Dynamic Range” compared to previous generation sensors. I really hope this is a real measurable difference and not just a marketing slogan 🙂
Message to that source: Can you tell me what you like and not like on the new A58? And can you confirm the February 20th as announcement date? Uh, and the final price of the Zeiss? Thanks :=)
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Reminder (SR = Sonyrumor):
SR1=probably fake rumor
SR2=rumor from unknown sources
SR3=50% chance it is correct
SR4=rumor from known sources
SR5=almost certainly correct!
75 Responses
Sony sensors have have amazing dynamic range, what they need to improve is low light performance
There’s no APS-C sensor that can compete with the one from the A57, 5n, etc. in terms of noise at high ISO. You have to go full-frame.
If this is Sony’s new mid-range APS-C sensor (with a new top-tier one coming for the A78/NEX 7x) then the real challenge will be for it to maintain the ISO performance of its 16mp predecessor with the denser 20mp arrangement.
The Pentax K-5 (which does use the same sensor as the A57 so I suppose my comment is pointless) achieves even higher ISO however..
And it’s supposedly based on a SONY sensor. I’ve seen a lot of speculation that Pentax do noise reduction on RAWs to achieve this. Just like Olympus and Fuji inflate their ISO numbers to get ‘superior’ performance out of their SONY sensors.
Pentax do that, Nikon do that, not’s not a speculation nor any news.
*it’s not
That’s because Pentax and Nikon are smart 🙂
I prefer to get it as straight from the sensor as possible. Lightroom does a great job with noise reduction in PP.
Low level RAW NR is better than any software method available. Which is why the Pentax K-5 II outperforms every other camera using the same sensor in high ISO performance.
No, it’s not better than any RAW NR out there. I can easily surpass the K5/K5 II results by using Topaz Denoise 5 on LR4 conversions from say the NEX 6 or other cameras using the same sensor.
yea, because there are operations that software cannot emulate while hardcoded circuits can…
…
…
…
NOT.
the only thing code cannot emulate is sensor performance. The rest is about digital signals which can be processed by every turing machine made of toilet paper.
According to this logic, we can add everything to an old camera via firmware and the only thing that cannot be improved is the sensor performance?
I was about to replace my a55 with and a57 and, while the sharpness is incredible in jpeg on the a57, the image quality from 200 iso is blotchy. Maybe this is a common complaint on this subject but I can’t justify selling my a55 for $200 because the re-sell is so low on Sony cameras. In RAW, even the a55 is still a solid performer. Personally, because I can’t sell the camera without paying someone to take it, I will not invest in Sony anymore. It’s sad but Sony needs to get in the game and stop focusing on models and getting deeper into function.
Plus, new sensor + new bugs and problems probably. Then fix it in the a78 without some functions and still charge $1200 for a semi-pro body. It’s just not adding up.
There are better cameras using the very same sensor as A57 in noise department and all that because Sony uses SLT technology. Even new 24MP Toshiba sensor is better for high ISO than Sony 16MP used with conventional mirror. So it’s time for Sony to high up the bar at high ISO with this brand new 20MP sensor.
It’s sony sensor. Produced at toshiba factories.
It has Toshiba markings which suggests intellectual property not who manufactured it. So it’s a Toshiba sensor even though it’s possible that Sony manufactures it.
Also there is Nikon’s own 24MP APS-C sensor in D3200 which produces quite similar results as Sony sensor in NEX-7.
Toshiba’s 24MP sensor is plagued with banding.
It’s fine for general type photography. But it cannot keep up with Sony’s sensor in terms of DR and shadow recovery.
True… The 16MP a580 is the best high Iso camera Sony ever made ( IMO The best Alpha camera they made overall when you include everything it offered… Best quality jpegs, high iso, 16mp, flip screen Live view lcd, Video, and Price – Yes Im including the a850 and a900)… Funny that its also the last OVF model they made too… Are you people doing the math? I doubt this a58 will even have the jpeg or high iso capabilities that even the 3 year old a580 has…
Sony SLT cameras score lower in ISO ratings only because of the translucent mirror, giving a “penalty” of about 2/3 stop in ISO performance (due to less light reaching the sensor at a given ISO setting). Same sensors on other cameras (e.g. Nikon, Pentax, etc) consistently give said 2/3 stop better ISO noise results.
There is no way to remedy this on Sony bodies, except if they go completely mirrorless (I wish) or revert to SLR designs.
That’s where my Nex-5N comes in 😉
Cameras like the Nex 5n will have the same Iso performance though 🙂
True, but the DR “falls” quickly as the ISO is increased, many times faster than what Canon sensors do, leading to a better DR on a Canon sensor of the same size for ISO 3200 and beyond (this goes for example for the 6D sensor Vs the RX1 for example).
If that means it keeps high DR at high ISO then great!
Still gutted it has tethering and not the A77 though
Bitch, bitch, bitch… A77 never promised tethering.
Seems like A58 will be in a direct fight with Nikon D5200. Toshiba’s 24MP sensor is said to have amazing low light performance relative to its pixel density. Let’s see how Sony’s new 20MP compete.
No matter what they do it won’t be enough. 😉 The new Toshiba D5200 has also amazingly aliasing-free video.
That Toshiba sensor is actually based on Sony technology. Sony and Toshiba have been cooperating on a CMOS sensors for a long while. You can quite clearly see that in DxO where it’s perfectly consistent with any other Sony sensor.
Toshiba sensor is actually quite different than Sony and it’s used Cu process for manufacturing.
Also Toshiba is a leading manufacturer in image sensors for mobile phones, not a Sony.
I’m not saying that they are identical 🙂
Not Samsung?
Sorry, but a relative value is always useless. Absolut performance counts.
With that sensor and the Nikon badge it’s a pointless “fight”.
Maybe not… The a A78 will probably have the D5200 sensor in it…
I’d love to see its EVF too. Any progress on this front?
Greatly improved? DR of any current Sony sensor is already very good!
I hope it is not a marketing hype. Although i have zero interest in a SLT, i would be watching if they upgrade from their usual run of the mill sensors, being the largest sensor maker and all…;)
Thank god. Finally some USEFUL improvement. Not just higher and higher ISO craziness. As if everyone would need night vision all the time.
+1 for Dynamic Range!
+1. I think ISO is overrated. It’s important, but not all.
+1
If the DR curve remains rather linear, that also means improved low light performance due to less shadow noise (usually the most prominent noise in low light pictures).
This linear response is indeed one characteristics of Sony sensors to date. Although there is logical to assume some improvement in ISO noise, I believe it will be rather modest.
You can check existing DR and S/N curves on DxO and extrapolate to even one stop higher DR. As you can see, S/N isn’t improved that much to make a huge difference, at least not better than you can accomplish with PP software noise reduction.
The SNR curve you’re looking at is just for midtones. For shadow, have a look at the full DXO review by clicking on the camera and look at the SNR curves for 10% gray and lower. Those are strongly tied to DR and IMHO more relevant for low light high ISO shooting (read: darker exposures at high ISO).
What flash system and 3rd party smart accessories are recommended on this new camera for the stills photo strobist?
Let’s see, erm…..there’s the….erm…..hmmmm, okay there’s the….oh yeah the F60 and it’s cheap too! 😀
I have the Nex-7 with the old flash mount and I use two Metz 50 AF-1 flashes and an old Nikon SB-80DX, all triggered by the wonderful Phottix Strato II system. I’d actually recommend to wait a bit for the Phottix Odin system to be released in the new Sony mount and buy that, if you have the money. Otherwise, Strato IIs are just great.
Metz 50 AF-1 are great units, reasonably cheap(200-250$) and very consistent. You’ll always get a perfect light, every single time. However, ergonomics are not the best. Still they’re much cheaper than Sony flashes.
Auto ISO in manual mode?
Timelaps or support for apps?
Phase focus on sensor?
Lift up mode shooting for the SLT mirror? 🙂
I wonder why Sony did go for the 20 MP and not the already used 24 MP?
Must mean the 20 MP is a new design?
It’s still fact, that many people are still on the MP-Madness-Boat.
So Sony needs a differentiation in that compared to higher models.
The 20MP will for sure be a new design.
It is probably a modified sensor design, which is used in Sony Cine Alta F65. It is a 20MPix sensor with non Bayer pattern, which is required for better dynamic range and low light performance.
Thanks for pointing that out. I just looked at the specs of that: http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/show/highend/pdf/F65_Camera.pdf
Looks good! Hope that would come true. 🙂
Looks like Sony bought some old Fujifilm sensors from the 90’s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_CCD
If I can not distinguish an apple from an earth worm, I would also think so. No they are not even remotely in the same category. CCD vs CMOS to start with..
Doubt it, for starters because that sensor has a completely different aspect ratio.
maybe not identical, but an adapted one for consumer use. A few things have been introduced into A99 sensor already.
Simply put all functions and features of a77, 12fps full resolution but with a frame buffer over 100 shots n sell it at A57 price, I’d get one for sports n Short Videos.
Dream on!
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rofl, just funny, how you are trying to milk the source for info. 🙂 good work !!!
I rather doubt there will be a major breakthrough in dynamic range, as we are now in the era of marginal gains. In any event, for the vast majority of photos, the DR at base ISO is far higher than will appear on the resultant images. That’s because the DR of the output device will be much less, and in order to display it all you have to “flatten” the image by applying a fairly extreme tone curve. The effects can look somewhat artificial, although there are some cases where it’s useful.
However, what is a lot more important is the maintenance of DR at non-base ISO as lighting does not always allow for base ISO to be used. That’s associated with good high ISO performance. A sensor that works well at (say) 6400 will generally have better DR at 800ISO than one which will only work well at 3200. It’s not guaranteed, as it depends on good noise control, but as a general principle it’s true.
That’s because ISO is really something of a fiction with sensors. Non-base ISO sensitivities are achieved by a mixture of analogue and, for very high ISO, digital amplification of the charge levels in the photosensors. The DR at any ISO level is characterised by the ratio between the (amplified) noise floor and the saturation level. On a good sensor, with well controlled electronic noise, the results will be virtually identical between shooting at a higher ISO and shooting at base ISO with compensatory underexposure and then boosting in post-processing. In other words, it’s effectively down to the number of photons captured and held as a charge. Using higher ISO settings has no effect on that – just the way that the charge is digitised.
Hi
can you please ask the sources if the A58 will have a vertical battery grip (I currently have the A57 , and the lack of an optional battery grip really annoy me )
I will buy it if they make a battery grip for it 🙂
buy the a77 instead duh
for most humans price matters ?
I care about new Toshiba 24 MPx sensor. It’s really good! More better than Sony 24 MP APS-C sensor (A77). I saw a few RAW ISO noise comparison at DPreview…
Sony has to come with a better sensor!
prediction for Zeiss lens: 998€
True… The 16MP a580 is the best high Iso camera Sony ever made ( IMO The best Alpha camera they made overall when you include everything it offered… Best quality jpegs, high iso, 16mp, flip screen Live view lcd, Video, and Price – Yes Im including the a850 and a900)… Funny that its also the last OVF model they made too… Are you people doing the math? I doubt this a58 will even have the jpeg or high iso capabilities that even the 3 year old a580 has…
It’s bettered by the A99, VG900 and RX1.
Spoon… You must be an Sony Employee because you are only mentioning current Sony models…
a99 is NOT better than the a580 when you figure In Price, not even better than the $1,000.oo cheaper N-word d600… Photos for web, and with my editing skills I know you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference in a99 and a580 files at say 1200 pixels wide… a77 cant hang either…
VG900 is Absolute Garbage…
The Overpriced fixed lens Rx1 should not be compared to Alpha… I was mentioning Alpha bodies and you know it.
Good job on trying to keep your Sony job though, LOL
MrLee… You must be an ex-Sony Employee because you are only trolling here by copy and paste repetive comments and talking non-sense.
a99 is NOT better than the a580? please enlighten me then.
You said VG900 is Absolute Garbage…please share with us if you owe the camera? Or provide a link to some professional reviews saying so?
No luck on trying to keep your Sony job, huh? LOL
sony sucks either way..been klosing money since 2008. delusional fanboys like yourself should shutup.
$ 600.00 Body (A58) $600.00 Flash (F60) LOL
This looks like a promising improvement. I wonder if the jpeg engine will be significantly better.
PCWorld magazine reported in the March 2013 issue that Toshiba is preparing a new 20 megapixel Sensor that will provide the “Highest resolution of its kind” “That will be able to deliver 30 frames per second at full resolution, 60FPS at 1080P or 100 FPS at 720P” “Toshiba says it has increased the amount of information that the pixels in the new chips can store compared to previous generation of sensors resulting in better over all images”…
pixels will measure 1.2 micro-meters each, down from 1.34 in current Toshiba Sensors..
Toshiba says its goal is to achieve a 30% market share of sensors for digital cameras by March 2016”
I believe this sensor is for point and shoots but maybe Sony will start using Toshiba Sensors too, lol
People keep comparing the A58(20MP) and the D5200(24MP)… BUT I wouldn’t be surprised if the A78 has the SAME sensor as the d5200… Releasing it months later with worse IQ… Did the potential of this cross anyone else’s mind ???
A full stop over current gen SLT APS-C sensors would put the ISO performance at 1500 before NR is needed. I don’t buy it. That would put it in the same range as the A99.