Important Note: I got this image from Cnbeta. But I already saw patents of that tech before and that’s why I rate the rumors with SR4!
Sony kills the long Bayer Sensor story:
If what you see here on top will become true than this will change the photography industry! Say goodbye to the classic RGB Bayer sensors because Sony is going to announce a new “Active-Pixel Color Sampling sensor (APCS)” in 2015! The specs sheet above shows the new 1.5 inch sensor with 4,8 million pixels. And I guess some of you would think that’s way to low but here comes the big news:
Every single pixel can take the full color info with the help of an electrified moving color filter!
How this works in detail is yet not described on that paper. But basically instead of having four pixels “RGBG” interpolated into one single pixel information (as it happens on usual Bayer sensors) every pixel on the APCS sensor grabs the full color information. On paper there is no need of interpolation (we still don’t know exactly how this works). But please keep in mind that in real world the difference may be much smaller (current RGB sensors indeed also uses all sort of interpolations to increase resolution).
This is a more advanced solution than Sigmas Foveon sensor used on DP cameras. Sigma uses three vertically ordered R-G-B layers. But also here you need to merge three pixel information into one and you also struggle with noise level because electrons get absorbed (or lost) on each layer.
Positive effects of such a sensor design are:
– Bigger pixels compared to same resolution Bayer sensor. This means more electrons captured and therefore higher dynamic range and lower noise (crazy ISO possible…even crazier than those of the Sony A7s).
– No moire issues anymore. No Anti Aliasing filter needed (increases per pixel sharpness).
– That tech also allows to make crazy high megapixel sensor. For example if you keep an Sony’s APCS pixel size same as the current Sony A7r 36MP RGB pixel size sensor you could in theory make a much higher resolution sensor with same noise level.
– Less pixels to read means also faster processing and readout.
– You actually can have a “full-monochrome” sensor 🙂
Other key features of the new APCS sensor:
– Electronic Global shutter. No more “jello” effect on videos!
– Records 2K with 16,000 frames per second (processor doesn’t have to be interpolate between RGBG pixels and therefore can use full power to read out more frames per second!). Note that the current Arri Phantom Flex shoots 4K at 1,000 frames per second.
When are we going to see that sensor?
I believe that sensor will make it into a Z4 phone first. “Classic” Alpha photocameras will get the same sensor tech on APS-C and FF sensors later!
What I know beside that spec sheet:
Trusted sources told me “complete new” sensor tech would be introduced on the verge between end 2015 and early 2016. I also saw plenty of sensors describing such kind of pixels with electronic color filter. I will now try to collect some of them to show them to you in a future post. So while I posted this rumor with an SR4 ranking only (see ranking description below) I have a strong feeling this rumor is true. I will wait for my trusted sources to upgrade this to SR5 as soon as I can!
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Reminder (SR = Sonyrumor):
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0 Responses
Just like in a Sigma Foevon, you can either have 4X sensitivity or 4X resolution at one time but can not have them both at the same time. Good to see larger BSI sensors. I hope this translates to a NEX cam and not a P&S or perfume bottle…
I am 100% sure it comes in a new cam. But I think we will see that late 2015 only.
It will be worth its wait. Thanks for this news. I agree that it is big. 🙂
Yep. This kills Bayer sensors. And opens a whole lot of new possibilities!
Combine that with pixel shutter and Canikon will have a very hard time!
Pfff never… it’s all about the lenses. And the system you heard? And ergonomics, and the UI. And Canon sells way way more. And the share prices. And the cameras+lens combo feels much better weighting 3, 4Kg. Oversized hands? If you can’t handle a Canon you shouldn’t be doing photography.
Canon Canon,
they’re our brand
if they can’t do it
no one can !!!
Really? I sent this egzact picture to the admin yesterday…
I just got this now. Maybe your message have landed in my spam folder. Happens all the time.. sorry 🙁
Dunno, i’we set it to you via th site anonymus message thing…
Btw, here it is a smaller version. This is a global shutter too, but no APCS:
Thanks! Will add this too now!
This is yet another design, IMX197HSK, in addition to the previously leaked IMX189AEG.
Hopefully that’s all it is and not a third party.
I regularly check my spam folder. But not every day 🙂
I hope we see this new sensor tech in lower end models too, not just phones and high end gear. Lately amatures and hobbiest on a budget are being left out in the cold. All the recent release from all makers are either a phone or high end 🙁
Gné… “This is a more advanced solution than Sigmas Foveon sensor used on DP cameras. Sigma uses three vertically ordered R-G-B layers.”.. Looks like marketing B$ to me…
That’s not marketing. It’s admin inference.
Exactly 🙂
Holy moly!!!!!!!!!
Well, like the Sigmas..we start with a low res APS-C sensor…so in 2017 we may see a FF 24mp sensor?
Interesting desighn with several advantages..but this desighn will have a new abberation to deal with…motion chromatic abberation.
A moving object will show color fringing similar to lens induced CA.
Non moving objects will not.
I would hope Sony is aware of this and has figured out a way to compensate for it.
Hi Barry, I was eagerly waiting for your comment on this. I wonder how this electronic color filter should work, any idea? How does this filter know, what color to capture?? It seems to me, that this tech is the key to this new sensor and if not working then we go back to the Bayer sensor. Thanks!
That will be like the blind leading the blind. Retarded $hit!.
This is a total guess but here goes..
Light is an electromagnetic wave similar to radio waves.
A carier wave could be generated similar to a radio..and the sensor could photograph the interferrence pattern rather than the actual light.
If carrier waves are used it may be possible to generate 3 seperate carrier waves simultaneously and record all 3 colors at the same time.
Also this could possibly photograph electromagnetic frequencies other than visible light simply by varying the carrier wavelength…again purely speculation on my part.
OK, nice: The incoming light says, “Hi, I am green!” Then the processor behind the sensor turns this message into a green. But then all greens are equally green, no variations, if the “Hi, I am green!”-message does not come in in different green messages.
But thanks, we will see. Your explanations makes sense.
No differrent than optical filters…green is green and the intensity of the R G B combined determine the color you think you are seeing.
Incidently..this is also how your eye works with 3 colors of cone sensors..and rod sensors for black and white / nite vision.
I don’t think it does anything simultaneously (I don’t think that’s even possible) but instead it rapidly alternates between reading different parts of the spectrum, which if done fast enough gives the appearance of reading multiple colours simultaneously.
this would cancel the idea of a real-pixel-sensor because the time of light gathering would be split into four while the bayer sensor splits the plane into four
right?
From a purely philosophical level then yes, it’s not a true colour pixel, it’s merely an extension of the first colour photographs which were achieved by taking three seperate exposures one after another and combining them.
But if you do your three exposures very very quickly, and keep redoing them during the exposure (adding up the R,G,B values into separate registers) then to the user there is no observable difference between this and a true colour sensitive pixel.
Fun fact, most computers can’t multitask, it may seem like you’re listening to music whilst typing an email, but really your CPU is doing only one thing at a time and switching between them faster than you can notice.
My guess is that they have a crystal or similar that changes it’s frequency response (which wavelengths of light it absorbs) rapidly when a changing electric current is applied. They then read the data very quickly (16,000 times a second is suggested) then send the signal alternately to three registers, which accumulate a charge. After the exposure is completed you read out these three registers and they give you the “red”, “green” and “blue” values for the pixel.
At 16,000 fps the motion artifacts would be negligible except in the rarest circumstances (i.e. super high speed bullet photography). In any case this sensor is clearly designed for video, where such circumstances are unlikely to occur.
So the newly designed cameras will be available in spring 2015 and won’t include this sensor technology?
Mini RX0.1 with APS-C as alternative to the old Sigma DP2 (non-merril)
That would be exciting… said no one yet.
I would prefer to wait until there is at least 12mp in that sensor.
The new Merrils are nice in res but only up until ISO 400-800 depending on taste.
I hope Sony has made gains in that field, at least.
and canon has just succeded in fixing shadow banding with thw 7D MK2….. way to go canon!
I heard that 2018 was the year of the sensors, when they will finally have DR equivalent to Exmor. Of course by then everyone and their cats will have Exmor III, but don’t let that fool you, it’s all about the system. And the share prices.
and the lenses…. sony sux for wildife shooting.
but it´s sure fine for your facebook selfies…..
E-mount sux for pretty much everything with exception of casual / street photo.
And landscape.
And architectural photography
And product photography
Portrait. Night time and available light photography.
In fact, it would be easier to say Canon sucks for everything but wildlife and sports.
70-200G, 70-300G, 70-400G, 300G, 500G. Yeah, “sux”.
5 billion do selfies, while only 5 do wildlife shooting.
You do the math.
I don’t believe that this is true. It is not really APS-C as stated and I doubt Sony would put such a large sensor in a Xperia.
1.5″ would be 18.70mm x 14mm like a Canon G1
(APS-C about ~ 23.6–23.7mm x15.60mm)
Why do they call it “Image-Size” in diameter 23,79mm – which would be the diameter of 1.5″ sensor, aka -> sensor-size?
Hopefully I am wrong, but this looks a bit fake.
He mentions APCS as the acronym not APS-C.
My fault, nevertheless way too big for a smartphone or a tablet, isn’t it?
And why “Image size Diagonal 23,79mm”? Image Size would be in Pixels, this is clearly the sensor-size!?
the description is of a tech spec and not a marketing sheet so its related to *how* they can do, not *what* they will do. It is probably just as easy to trim it to a smaller form factor and stick it onto a cellphone than hope everyone buys a new camera with new technology, but a cellphone is easily the best place to implement new technologies.
“Active-Pixel Color Sampling sensor (APCS)” not APS-C
Admin wrote APS-C in the Fcuk article
So, there is ONE thing, didn’t mentioned in the spec sheeet, but if you look very closely, you can figure it out.
It’s a big sensor. REally big, for a phone. Specially for the xperia Z4, wich is NOT a camera-phone (like lumia 1020 or Galaxy K zoom) but a GEneral flagship. Soo it can’t be too big.
This means that this sensor (if it really comes in the Z4) MUST be curved.
Aww man… imagine this. A phone with a fast 1.4 or 1.2 aperture, a sensor this big, Global Shutter and awesome ISO (wich is needed, because the small amount of total light falling to it)
It’s already sharp because the stacked struckture, but the curved shapes makes it even more sharp. 1.4 times in the center and 2 times at the corners….
The only thing missing is OSPDAF, but hey.. maybe! The iPhone6 got it, and it’s a Sony sensor too….
Samsung got it, and LG has the laser autofocus. Sony needs to step up in terms of focus speed…
This is most definitely not a chip for a camera phone. With a 23.7mm diagonal sensor, it would need a far larger lens than you can fit in a camera phone. It would only be a bit smaller if the sensor was curved.
No, this is clearly designed for video, and a calculation on the physical dimensions indicates that the aspect ratio will be more like that of a video camera than a stills one.
Fair enough.
i started my thinking because it was mentoined as a phone sensor…
Not if it is curved, simpler lens designs are one of the BIG advantages of a curved sensor (at least for match prime lenses that is).
Curved sensors reduce the complexity of a lens (number of elements and so on) as it no longer has to fully correct for field curvature. That reduces the length. However, such a large sensor still requires a large lens. That’s because you need a proportionately longer focal length to give the same field-of-view. With a symmetrical lens design, that means that a sensor 5x the size will have it’s main elements about 5x further from the sensor. There are telephoto designs which make the read focal length shorter than the front, but that introduces a lot of complexity and, would you believe it, makes the lens large (albeit not as large as a symmetrical design, which is why long focal length lenses are telephoto designs). However, not much help at regular focal lengths where the increased complexity outweighs the length issue.
Then, of course, even if you did produce a magical lens with the right focal length for the FoV, and it was very short, then the lens would be extremely close to a very large sensor which would mean incredibly high angles of incidence problems at the edge (and curved sensors make little difference there as they are all about field curvature). Then, even if you did curve the sensor, just how much do you think a 23mm diagonal sensor can be curved in the thickness of a camera phone, allowing for the lens, case thickness etc.?
Then a longer focal length lens will require a (physically bigger aperture for the same f-stop (unless you are to throw away the advantage of the large sensor in diffraction and loss of light through tiny appertures).
In short, it was an admin flight of fancy. A sensor this size is never going in a phone.
Sorry but where do you get that curved sensors do NOT affect field curvature? From memory the Nokia 808 uses a slightly larger than 1″ type sensor. The new Panasonic uses a 1″ type. Those sensors are far far closer to a 1.5″ type than a 1″ type is to the normal 1/2.3″ (or smaller 1/3″ type) type sensors used in most mobile phones.
I said that lenses (unless corrected)
Anyway, the Nokia 808 has a 10.67 × 8 mm sensor, so a 23.7mm one would be twice the diagonal. The Nokia has a (relatively) huge lens and a corresponding bulge. A phone utilising a sensor twice as large would, roughly speaking, require a “bulge” approaching twice that of the Nokia. I suppose such a phone could be built, but it would be more a camera with a phone capability than the other way around.
To put this in perspective, a sensor this size is roughly twice the size of that in the RX100.
(A 1″ sensor doesn’t mean it measures 1″. That method of classifying sensor sizes relates to the diameter of television camera tubes from the 1950s. The equivalent digital sensor is about half the size).
Now we need all phones to be built like tanks just like in the old (nokia) days.
Because smartphones cost as much as a nex5 but last barely 24 month.
So there is no point investing in the best cameraphone just yet imho
Valid point! How about a modular Phone, that last almost forever, because you can update the camera, the processor separately (or add EVF, Grip, Flash trigger, hotshoe to it) Check out Project ARA! This thing will be available to buy in Q1 2015!
@Sar_Admin
My guess is, that we will see such a sensor in early 2015.
I had a workshop with a fotograph, that mentioned new sensor tec/camera/prototype and said its comming early 2015.
Better ISO/noise behavior was also mentioned, but because of NDA, he didnt share much.
Lets see what happens
Ermmm…. Yeah… This seems like a sensor designed for video only. Notice it doesn’t give any ‘stills’ specs? And despite admin’s claims regarding foveon sensors, foveon still samples the scene at 14 or 20MP, it’s ‘claim’ to extra detail is that it also fully (or partially) samples colour at that many sites. This would only sample at <4.8MP BUT with full colour sampling… Like foveon sensors from a decade ago.
This is a video sensor.
I said “On paper”. I may add now that real difference is expected to be lower.
I know what you mean, but I can’t see how this is supposed to gain spacial sampling by sampling more colour?
Meaning that Foveon samples say 20MP on the new quattro sensor, that’s the max spacial resolution. But this is less than 5MP…
I think this is meant for video.
Mobile might be an option as you said though as huge resolution is not a big requirement there. So a 5MP (with more colour sampling and HDR, global shutter, large pixel sites etc) would be very welcome, but there would need to be a fairly big step up for an APS-C stills camera.
you can put more photosites on the sensor.. so you have better resolution and better color.
don´t be so fixed on the 4.8MP….
You can for sure. I am talking about THIS sensor, you know the one with the actual model number and specifications.
Saying “on paper” is meaningless, you can show “on paper” that a Bayer sensor can have higher colour resolution than predicted by the pixel count in the general case.
Interesting, but it’s highly misleading to claim that a 4.8MP sensor of this sort would be equivalent to a 19.2MP bayer pattern sensor. I know people have an almost instinctive impulse to summarise complex issues in simplistic terms, but it’s not a good idea.
If you actually compared the two sensors above, among the things you’d find are :-
1) the bayer pattern sensor would have considerably higher spatial resolution
2) the bayer pattern sensor would be prone to more chroma-related artifacts
3) it’s difficult to say what the effect will be on noise, but the fact that this is stated as having a filter, albeit an active one, implies that it will still be “throwing away” a lot of the photons. The implication is that each photosite probably samples each of the colour channels in turn by switching the filtering electronically. As IQ is ultimately dictated by the number of photons deected per unit area (when issues such as read noise are equal), then it’s unclear what the impact will be. (Note that if a “filter-less” could be used, such as prismatic colour separation, that would be a major advance).
So, as with all these things, we ought to wait. As it is, I suspect this is more of a video-orientated sensor than for stills.
Nb. the problem with the Foveon sensor is not that it “absorbs electrons” in each layer (I think admin means photons). The issue with Foveon is that is has poor colour separation. That’s because the depth of penetration of different wavelength photons follows a statistical distribution which means that some of the (say) red-end photons are actually detected in the “green layer”. What this means is a lot of “pollution” in the colour channels from the “wrong” wavelength photons. Now this “common mode” interference can be corrected for, but a vary high proportion of the information in the signal has been lost. This shows up as high levels of chroma noise a higher ISO levels.
you are sure not limited to 4.8 MP….
there should be no problem to make it a real 20MP sensor and beat the spatial resolution of bayer sensors.
this is the first of it´s kind.. you know.
But the admin statement was about a 4.8MP pixel. Hence the comment.
As to whether it’s scalable to 20MP, we’ll see. It would seem to have some form of electronically switchable colour filter at each position. Certainly a sensor that could sample all colours at every pixel site would beat a bayer pattern sensor on spatial resolution (and especially where colour is involved). However, I rather think the sensor design will have other compromises. For instance, it may be a far bigger issue electronically switching 20 million sites than 5 million. Not all technologies scale.
I think there’s a lot more to find out.
As exciting as this is, the admin should take a sec to get his math/facts straight.. Bayer resolution can be tricky, as the sensor resolution in pixels is often the same as the image pixel resolution/count, but the image resolution is lower(blurry image)
.
– a Bayer sensor does not have 1/4 of the effective resolution of a full rgb sensor, its more like 80% due to modern intelligent interpolation/computation of the missing colors per pixel.
– a 36 MPX Bayer sensor would not turn into 144MPX when using RGB pixels.. Its still a 36MPX sensor but with effectively 20-30% better image resolution in the image due to no color interpolation
– sensitivity is likely not too far off from a same MPX Bayer sensor and not 4x higher, as the pixel pitch is still the same because 4bayer sensor pixel result not in 1 image pixel but into 4, the same as in an RGB sensor, just with less resolving power due to interpolation.
Hi!
I said “on paper”. I know in reality there are good interpolation alghoritms. But if we take into account that well…also the new APCS sensor could use interpolation “tricks” to increase the resolution.
I took the “interpolation” off the table because we don’t know yet how the APCS works on that level.
Even without interpolation you still have higher res than 1/4 as the red resolution is 1/2 of a full color sensor.. But even with the most stupid linear interpolation you get closer to a full RGB sensor than 1/2 res..
Bayer sensors are able to exploit correlations between colour channels (i.e. the green pixels can be used to estimate what the missing red and blue values would be). A 3-colour sensor cannot use the same “tricks” or any “ticks” for that matter to increase resolution.
In reality you get around twice the resolution by capturing three colours per pixel.
maybe you have to read waht he wrote…
same pixel size as the 36MP sensor… but every pixel able to get the full color info, no interpolation.. means it´s an effectiv 144mp sensor.
and not a 36mp sensor thast get´s interpolated and therfore reduced in resolution.
effectiv 144MP BAYER sensor… so it´s correct.
Nope. The 36MPX A7r sensor has 36 million Bayer sensor pixels not 144 and outputs a 36mpx image.. A RGB sensor would have the same 36million sensor pixels and output a 36mpx image with slightly higher perceivable image res. Pixel pitch is the same for both sensors..
yes but the bayer sensor wouls need a higher “virtual” pixel count than a RGB sensor to get the same resolution.
in reality not 144MP (do to the interpolation “tricks”) but we are talking theroretical here.
exactly. It’s all theoretical. We have to see the “real thing” to get an idea how good this works.
A 5 megapixel variant of this will have resolution close to a Bayer sensor with 5, not 20, megapixels. Each pixel is an average over a larger area. You gain a little over Bayer by not interpolating, not as much as you think.
You might gain sensitivity, but that would require collecting each color sequentially in time. No details, though.
ok, Corrected! Sorry for the mistake 🙂
Sorry, I don’t want to downplay that this indeed would be an amazing rumor and new tech from Sony. Sounds awesome! Can’t wait to get a aps-c or ff camera with this 😉
Wrong, I am with Gunnar. Downsample a 36mpx image to 8 mpx and then upsample again to 36mpx and tell me they look the same.
Detail increase will be around 20-30%, gets the benefits of a camera without the AA filter (more resolution) with the benefits os a camera with AA filter (No moire)
you think it will always be a 4.8 MP sensor?
how about a 20 MP sensor with this technology?
By then there will be be 50-100MP bayer sensors… While this is very cool and has plenty of other advantages it isn’t the be-all end-all.
Correct. Still and video sensor tech can and probably should move different directions to optimize.
I’m a little leery of the fact that this tech appears first in what is a 4mp sensor of odd dimensions (in all kinds of ways). It probably means that the electrical layer doing the temporal color changes is dictating the sensor properties. To answer 312’s question about 20mp: maybe, but unlikely in any near time frame if me previous sentence is correct. Also note what I wrote earlier about data coming off the sensor. Multiply that by 5 ;~).
Gunnar, I agree.
And some more things that make me a bit less enthusiastic:
– Dynamic range is independent of pixel size
– If it is still CMOS based, you still have to live with CMOS-typical noise levels.
Sure there are still some optimizations as you can see with the A7S but CMOS is CMOS and will be CMOS…
For me the question is: Will there be a time difference between the color samples? That might result in a kind of color blur.
A big advantage is of course the global shutter.
Moreover, there are some curious aspects of that data sheet. For instance, we have about 2000×2000 non-square pixels, yet we generate oversized 4K video (6000 pixels horizontally). That’s an interesting trick that needs some explanation as to how you’d do that (taking the narrow portion of the photosite and producing 3x the pixels).
Also, some of Admin’s claims are dubious, e.g. “16,000 frames per second (processor doesn’t have to be interpolate
between RGBG pixels and therefore can use full power to read out more
frames per second!)” Two basic possibilities exist: the sensor does the ADC, in which case there’s an awful lot of power being used to first get data values and then shift them off the sensor; or you use external ADC, which is going to increase read noise. Even at 16kfps and RGB HD video, we’re talking about something like 96BB/ps moving off the sensor. That’s B, not M. That’s one heck of a lot of data to move, and is going to require power at both ends to handle.
Its an APCS technology sensor, not an APSC size sensor… admin tricked me again
lol. No tricks. It’s how Sony calls them 🙂
So to get this straight: The new Sony Cameras coming Feb 2015 won´t have that new sensor technology?
I do not think you would want them to. While this will have some advantages in certain applications, it won’t for general use photography.
Thanks, but could you please elaborate on the shortcomings for general use? (If Sony puts “older” sensor tech in their pro cameras what will they put that new sensor in?)
OH no again one year waiting !!!!! for this new stuff ?? I hope it’s much sooner
“That tech also allows to make crazy high megapixel sensor. For example
if you keep an Sony’s APCS pixel size same as the current Sony A7r 36MP RGB pixel size sensor you could in theory make a 144 Megapixel FF APCS sensor ”
(*yawn…*)
I don’t understand what the advantage of that sensor might be. You still have color filters, and they are moving, so maybe you have to split the exposure time for each pixel by three… effectively yielding no advantage.
Well we’d have a least a 50% gain of resolution.
it worth every single i(s) back there!!
can i scream now?
iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
APS-C APCS Sensors? Sounds pretty confusing. 😉
Yes it is. But that’s Sony 🙂
I believe this is for video camera using E-mount first, given the spec like global shutter, 4k high speed video sampling. Admin says same technology shall apply to Z4, but the sensor size tells it won’t fit on a mobile phone.
I am looking forward what Sony will trench out for Z4, since they use the same 20MP 1/2.3″ since Z1
Too small for E-mount.
Most likely it’ll be released on RX-type camera.
APCS = Active Pixel Color Sampling.
sony buzzword
I’m not sure how to respond. This aps-c sensor going into some Z4 phone? Such nonsense. Me thinks you need to do more fact checking.
Also, 4.8mp? Other than foveon fans, no one will buy a camera with this sensor for still photography. NO ONE. Doesn’t matter if it looks like 8mp. If this sensor is for video, then I can see a reason to exist. For still photography, this is DOA.
APCS and not APS-C!!!!
It’s still 21mm wide, which is not quite APS-C but still far too big to go in a phone.
It will come in different sizes – like CMOS.
If this is true it would be the same as what happened when the 1st Digital camera came out 30 years ago.
I bet the Sony’s CEO will be singing “APCS .. i did it again..” On stage :/
This should get there mobile phones sales back on track.
It’s far too big to go in a mobile phone, that part of the rumor is obviously wrong.
Still i’m sure the tech will end up in one.
You forgot about Samsung who is busy since exactly 4 hours to copy that tech 😉
I’m not that excited. My Bayer images don’t look broken and I haven’t seen Foveon cameras without serious limitations. This patent describes a sensor which has dimensions unlikely to be used with one of Sony’s current mounts. The global shutter sounds good, I hope to see that soon in Sony cameras. However, the moving colour filter create some doubts since it introduces mechanics again. And question the exposure time range because of this additional process.
Also keep in mind we are viewing most of our images on displays which are limited in colour separation and output. You’ll have probably to print big and expensive to see an advantage. Not to mention the software which needs to keep up with a new way of interpreting files.
Most of the consumers won’t even care, but for a aficionados it may be a nice exercise.
Just a correction: It’s not a patent!
Well, some people here think it might be a sensor for a phone or a tablet.
Might be a pretty big ass camera for a phone: 23.79mm diagonal?
It’s really close to the APS-C diagonal of 28.345mm (Sony’s 23.6mm x 15.7mm).
So the idea of a curved APS-C (renamed APCS just to make it even more confusing, thanks LOL) kinda makes sense.
Thinking about what has been said about it, that “it should have the same curvature of the eye” then a slightly shorter diagonal (seen from atop, kinda bird’s view) make sense, considering that some mm might be lost in the curvature when measuring straight from one corner to the other.
No?
So in short, this is not a stacked design like the Foveon like the earlier rumors? It’s a sensor that reads the individual colour out of each and every pixel? With a global shutter to boot? In that case, we will see some pretty awesome video cameras from Sony soon.
It seems it separates colour in the time domain, rather than using multiple layers, so it has the potential of much better performance than the Foveon design.
Crazy exciting rumors indeed. Keeping fingers and toes crossed!
2nd attempt of sending this… :/
Well, some people here think it might be a sensor for a phone or a tablet.
Might be a pretty big ass camera for a phone: 23.79mm diagonal?
It’s really close to the APS-C diagonal of 28.345mm (Sony’s 23.6mm x 15.7mm).
So the idea of a curved APS-C (renamed APCS just to make it even more confusing, thanks LOL) kinda makes sense.
Thinking about what has been said about it, that “it should have the same curvature of the eye” then a slightly shorter diagonal (seen from atop, kinda bird’s view) make sense, considering that some mm might be lost in the curvature when measuring straight from one corner to the other.
No?
The Question is, Will it be on A-Mount?
Sony will release FF Pro camera in E-Mount so no more future for A-Mount…
Can we give the e-mount fanboy a-mount hate a rest for a few posts please. ;^)
Yep. This sensor is completely irrelevant to both: A and E mounts. So give it a break, people. Perhaps in a few years they’ll develop sensor large enough, but what we have here got nothing in common with A and E mounts.
144MP sensor is sheer sensationalist crap. Click-bait.
My bet, Petapixel and Mirrolessrumors quote just that number (because they would believe that number came from a source and not one SAR reader…) and SAR gets hits just based on that.
Shame.
if on paper: 1 pixel could really do what 4 pixel do together. What’s sensationalist here? It’s math 🙂
Math tells you that 1pixel CANNOT do what 4 pixels do together.
How does that math apply here? How does that math apply to foveon?
Because they have 3 sensors below each pixel (not 3 pixels in the place of one) they do not have 3 times the resolution.
If you have ever used a foveon camera, you would now that 4mp doesn’t equal 12 in real term RESOLUTION.
What you want is a big number so you can say “on paper” and then people take that number home with them. But you have yet to show where is the paper that tells you 144.
Sorry, Admin. Sometimes it looks like you stand your ground on the principle of just not feeling like what you said was actually wrong.
Sigma claims about twice the resolution:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/04/08/sigma-qa-part-ii-does-foveons-quattro-sensor-really-outresolve-conventional
If you use luminance information form other photodiodes you may decrease this difference a bit.
Sigma claims the x3 whatever (except the new Quattro design)
From Wikipedia, which is what I remember clearly when I bought into the DP1 some years ago. Everyone knew that 4.7 foveon sensor was roughly a good 9-10mp bayer in resolution-ish. But not the 13-14 Sigma claimed.
Quattro is another story.
My point here is that Admin’s ultra inflated numbers are worth squat but a cry for clicks on a number that came out of thin air on dubious simple math that has little relationship to real life “equivalence”.
“Spatial resolution
According to Sigma Corporation, “there has been some controversy in how to specify the number of pixels in Foveon sensors.”[22]
The argument has been over whether sellers should count the number of
photosites, or the total number of photodiodes, as a megapixel count,
and whether either of those should be compared with the number of
photodiodes in a Bayer filter sensor or camera as a measure of resolution.
For example, the dimensions of the photosite array in the sensor in
the Sigma SD10 camera are 2268 × 1512, and the camera produces a native
file size of those dimensions (times three color layers). This amounts
to approximately 3.4 million three-color pixels. However, it has been
advertised as a 10.2 MP camera by taking account of the fact that each
photosite contains stacked red, green, and blue color sensing
photodiodes, or pixel sensors
(2268 × 1512 × 3). By comparison, the dimensions of the photosite array
in the 10.2 MP Bayer sensor in the Nikon D200 camera are 3872 × 2592,
but there is only one photodiode, or one pixel sensor, at each site. The
cameras have equal numbers of photodiodes, and produce similar RAW data
file sizes, but the Bayer filter camera produces a larger native file size via demosaicing.
However, the actual resolution produced by the Bayer sensor is more
complicated than the count of its photosites, or its native file size,
might suggest. The reason has to do with both the demosaicing and the
separate anti-aliasing filter commonly used to reduce the occurrence or
severity of color moiré patterns
that the mosaic characteristic of the Bayer sensor produces. The effect
of this filter is to blur the image output of the sensor, thus
producing a lower resolution than the photosite count would seem to
imply. This filter is largely unnecessary with the Foveon X3 sensor and
is not used. The earliest camera with a Foveon X3 sensor, the Sigma SD9, showed visible luminance moiré patterns, but not color moiré.[23] Subsequent X3-equipped cameras have less aliasing because they include microlenses, which provide an effective anti-aliasing filter
by averaging the optical signal over an area commensurate with the
sample density, which is not possible in any color channel of a
Bayer-type sensor. Aliasing from the Foveon X3 sensor is “far less
bothersome because it’s monochrome” according to Norman Koren.[24]
Therefore, in theory, it is possible for a Foveon X3 sensor with the
same number of photodiodes as a Bayer sensor and no separate
anti-aliasing filter to attain a higher spatial resolution than that
Bayer sensor. Independent tests indicate that the “10.2 MP” array of the
Foveon X3 sensor (in the Sigma SD10) has a resolution similar to a 5 MP[25] or 6 MP[26] Bayer sensor, and at low ISO speed even similar to a 7.2 MP[27] Bayer sensor.
With the introduction of the Sigma SD14,
the 14 MP (4.7 MP red + 4.7 MP green + 4.7 MP blue) Foveon X3 sensor
resolution is being compared favorably by reviewers to that of 10 MP
Bayer sensors. For example, Mike Chaney of ddisoftware says, “the SD14
produces better photos than a typical 10 MP dSLR because it is able to
carry sharp detail all the way to the ‘falloff’ point at 1700 LPI
whereas contrast, color detail, and sharpness begin to degrade long
before the 1700 LPI limit on a Bayer based 10 MP dSLR.”[28] Another article judges the Foveon X3 sensor as roughly equivalent to a 9 MP Bayer sensor.[29] A visual comparison between a 14 MP Foveon sensor and a 12.3 MP Bayer sensor shows Foveon has crisper details.[30]”
Marketing is often misleading people. Even Bayer sensors are marketed as having an, e.g., 36MP resolution, although some data needs to be reconstructed by interpolation and resolution is lost. But this is really a sad story.
@Admin: The consensus is around 50% more resolution: 10MP Foveon ~ 15MP Bayer.
And you seem to keep forgeting that there is 1/3 the temporal resolution (because the RGB filters haven’t just vanished, you know?), so it’s 1/3 the sensitivity of Bayer.
@Admin: The consensus is around 50% more spatial resolution: 10MP Foveon ~ 15MP Bayer (smart interpolation does get a lot of detail back).
And you seem to keep forgeting that there is 1/3 the temporal resolution (because the RGB filters haven’t just vanished, you know?), so it could be 1/3 the sensitivity of Bayer (again, this time temporal interpolation will get some of that sensitivity back)
All in all, this isn’t a better sensor, it’s just different! 🙂
But it works. I browse other rumor sites like Canon Rumors, Nikon Rumors, and Sigma Rumors which tread lighter IMHO and, as one would expect, you don’t see nearly as many huge comment threads with fanboys spewing their endless fantasy personal want lists and all-around trolling. SAR also churns more posts as click-bait and, obviously, if you grind out so many posts you’ve got to be imaginative.
For about a year I was as bad as most taking the bait. However, I burned out on the bullsh*t around the last Photokina. Obviously, I still hang around a bit but I’m pretty much done dancing with the trolls. ;^)
Apcs aps-c – love Sony naming.
It’ll probably hit RX cameras long before anything with interchangable lenses. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d sell RX-type compact even before putting this type of sensor into the smartphone.
I’d be nervous if I were Sigma. The Sigma fanboys will be out in full force!
Does anybody actually buy Sigma cameras?
Didn’t the head of Sigma basically say they were into cameras because it helped them make better lenses even though they weren’t big enough in cameras to turn a profit? I doubt they’ll care. Then there’s the point it’s a SAR rumor. ;^)
Sony’s cool stuff is somehow always 1-2 years away.
Instead of constantly improving sensors, we should maybe improve the stuff we take pictures of! My cat is ugly, man!
Sounds like they’re using Fabry-Perot interferometers over each pixel, with an adjustable separation to select the wavelength sensitivity. The spectral sensitivity is selected by applying an electrical current to microscopic springs, which expand or contract as a result.
These types of sensors have existed for probably around a decade now. One of the main issues with them is that they respond poorly to off-axis illumination, passing the wrong colors through. The high readout speed is likely used to do time division spectral sampling (i.e. alternating between several colors and integrating over a longer period of time to get an average).
If this really is what you say it is… then it probably wouldn’t make it into system cameras, it would provide too much of a challenge designing lenses for it.
Depends on how much error is acceptable. If the final output is only RGB it might work with “some” color shifting. If you’re trying to capture detailed spectra at each pixel it would be a problem.
Like a lot of thinks it would benefit from calibration, but I don’t know enough about this to know if that would need to be sensor-specific (could be done) or lens-specific (major problem).
Of course, if you’re willing to use telecentric lenses there shouldn’t be much of a problem at all (good luck finding those for Sony though).
” Invitation au Salon de la Photo 2014 ” in Paris from Sony
http://www.sony.fr/res/attachment/file/06/1237493197906.pdf
If someone is interested, did not get his “invitation” mail yet or lived close to Paris 😉
how good this one compare BSI sensor? i saw samsung announced NX1 with BSI sensor, but that low light ISO is not make any surprise so far…
I’m curious how that sampling works in detail. With something stacked it’s easy to predict the outcome; but how will an electronic filter behave when used with strobes? Depending on the answer that might have some serious implications for still photography.
Keep in mind what flash duration you get if you choose to use fill flash in a low ambient light situation – no need to go into high end applications to feel the potential impact.
People are getting over excited, there are big potential issues with flash photography, especially with hot-shoe strobes which can have durations of a ten thousandth of a second.
This is why the sensor appears to have been designed for video, where high speed flash is not going to be a problem.
It just occurred to me: some of my LED fixtures have flicker rates in the kHz-range, PWM dimming fast enough not to register under normal circumstances. But it can ruin a high speed take. Something to keep an eye open for, even in video only environment.
Use shutter 1/50 s or longer to avoid vanishing LED text
Why LED text?
Not that such long shutter speed work exceptionally well at 60-240fps in the first place.
It’s clearly a video sensor, so strobes wouldn’t factor. Although I feel this whole thing is rife with implausibility on examination.
So now we have the red, blue and green channels being sampled at 3 different points in time?
What about movement accross that time? I imagine there is potential for strange smearing effects?
The idea is you sample three colours repeatedly, very quickly, thus avoiding most problems with movement across the frame (at least for video applications, it wont work for high speed flash photography).
I suppose it might just about work. An A7S (at max full sampling rate of 30FPS) manages about 250 million samples per second. A 4.8MP sensor with 3 samples each cycle would be 430 million samples per second at 30fps.
However, the claim is 240 fps. That would imply 3,200 million samples per second (unless sub-sampled of course).
However, this think claims a global shutter, and that will change some things as the read would (normally) be from a temporary store. I suppose it would have a bank of them (one for each colour channel) so digitisation could be done in parallel, but the complexity issues on the chip would be huge.
In all, I’m smelling a rat, especially as I can only find references which seem to point back to a Chinese rumour site.
If a sensor of that size ends up in a phone, then it must be like that Panasonic photo-centric phone released a few months back, only much better. It can’t be the Z4, as Zs are all-round flagships, not specialty phones.
I worked out from the pixel size that the sensor is about 21mm x 11mm, so it’s more than half frame, with a widescreen aspect ratio (and non-square pixels!)
Another one? The original leak on the curved sensor(though it had self-contradicting specs) indicated non-square pixels
Yes, it has a diagonal measurement approaching double that of a Nokia 880, and that has a very large “lens bump”. Anything to support a sensor this size would be much more prominent of course as, to maintain the field of view, it would require a lens twice as deep and twice the diameter (unless f-stop is to be compromised).
In short, I don’t expect to see it in a camera phone and, if we do, it would be a very large and bulky beast.
(nb. it’s not as large as half-frame which measures 24mm x 18mm. However, it would have a similar crop-factor to an MFT camera).
Guess the admin was the first person to confuse aps-c with apcs 🙂
144MPs is a tall order. Diffraction will make such a sensor overkill.
for a short moment yes…it happened to me too 🙂
The 144MP figure is plucked from thin air and has nothing to do with the actual leaked information.
Such technology would enable say a 36MP sensor with higher colour resolution and fewer artifacts, if (and it’s a only an if at this stage) this technology ever ends up in stills cameras. But there will be some limitations to time domain colour sampling, such as flash photography.
144mp is not a real anything. Admin just wants to tell us that 2+2=5.
Sigma’s marketing department would agree with him.
Real life won’t.
Canon, Sony and Fuji/Panasonic all have been rumored to be close to releasing radically different sensor tech. This sounds really interesting but a long way away, if real at all. Fuji/Panasonic did press releases (not leaks) a year ago about their “organic sensor” but still no product release. My money would be on Sony to break through first.
Agreed.. Because i see sony is the only company dared to push new tech into the market whilst taking a huge risk.. The qx series, a7 series, and the curved sensor kw1 camera are those examples but surprisingly sucessful
curve on smartphone ,no surprise what the advantage can’t see on file
because pin hole sensor,let make on APS-C now!!!
patents release every day Pana/Fuji/Canon ect. ,who make best balance system good sensor & lens ,optic material best from kits to expensive fast lens.
Indeed. Also, who will speak english or talk crap?
if you made the pixels on a bayer sensor smaller, you could in theory also make a 200mp sensor, so I don’t see that point. such a point would only be valid if you know that a apcs pixel can be made as small as a regular pixel (or rather sensel)
also I think you mean photons not electrons
But the regular bayer 200mp aren’t producing true 200mp.. The exact resolution is about a 1/3 at best(my opinion)with the best demosaicing algorithm..
Sorry continue here due to lag :/ the exact resolution is lower is because the algorithm will interpolate the colour information between pixels instead of combining all 3 rgb data into one pixel
These specs are fake.
This has been “Leaked” before.
Don’t get too excited guys.
Awww 🙁 im already excited.. Where can i find the page?
Rectangular pixels? see the “unit cell size” figures
Admin: The Phantom cameras are not made by Arri, they are from Vision Research. (And at 2K, the Flex4K can reach 2000fps… still, impressive tech by Sony)
The 4 times grater resolution vs Bayer pattern is a big lie! It is well demonstrated that current Bayer demosaicing algorithms achieve 70% efficiency of a 3 colored pixels resolution.
Bayer demosaicing has limitations when it comes to tiny details like the strings on a clothing or tiny marks on a rock.. 3 coloured pixels definitely can resolve more details than bayer theoretically once demosaicing algorithm reaches its limits
If you read correctly, I said current bayer demosaicing can achive 70% of the resolution of an 3 colored pixels, your finer detail is found in the 30% less resolution witch is not resolved. My statement is based on facts not speculation, document yourself.
I did not say you are wrong.. Im also not wrong stating that 3 coloured pixels resolves more detail than bayer, as your statement agrees with mine when you said bayer resolves 30% less details than 3 colored pixels.. Im just making my point that bayer has limitations when it comes to resolution
My Sigma DP3 Merrill resolves micro-detail as well as (or better than) my A7R w/55FE.
at base iso maybe but what about anything above that?
and where is the new Sony FF a-mount solution for me?
Interesting video sensor, has Sony done a 1.5-inch class video camera yet? Could be used in a E-mount as a 1.8X crop but I expect it will be in its own dedicated video camera. Sony has done some other high end video chips, they had one with three color pixels per HD pixel area, I think in Super 35 format. The technology could migrate into still cameras, or it may not. Could be used in their new $50,000 dollar class cameras. The specs mention a 6144 horizontal pixel 4K mode, which implies the pixels have at least 3 horizontal sub pixels.
Moiré doesn’t have anything to do with bayer array. And I doubt 16000fps @ 2K, this would result in hundreds of GB/s that would have to be moved off the sensor, that is a magnitude more than current intel processors can access their on-chip memory (first level cache)!
Moire technically occurs due to error in demosaicing algorithm trying to demosaic a repeating pattern so yeah bayer array does influence moire
moire patterns occur if your sampling frequency and the size of image detail through the lens is similar. sampling frequency in this case would correspond to the pixel size.
moire is not an artifact of demosaicing, you could also get moire-effects with pure black and white sensor resp. foveon-type sensors.
Oh thanks for explaining :). I stand corrected
Cute how sensor technology demand better and better resolution lenses and yet the market trends is towards the smaller flange diameter lenses with what thus far has been reduced resolving power.. If the big camera is to survive, it might do so by little more than the width of its flange.
Well said Sigma troll, somehow most other lens manufacturers have increased resolving power on this and other mounts.
But wait! Won’t this just increase your exposure time 3 times? One exposure for Red, Second for Blue & Third for Green???
But that huge 9micro pixel allows it to use high iso to significantly compensate the shutterspeed.. A7s has 8micro pixel as comparism
Oops 36micrometer square.. Not 9
no it can’t. what happens on a minute long exposure,etc? not to mention you’d have all sorts of image artifacts with motion blur and movement.
Huh? Not alot modern cameras allow more than 1minute exposure anyway XD there should be a way though, at long shutter speeds the active sampling would most probably be disabled and demosaicing will be necessary 😀
lol. really. ever hear of bulb mode? okay even with a 1 second exposure. until it also contains the necessary elements to stop space and time as we know it it could not take 3 consecutive samples without having motion artifact.
even at 1/400th of a second – sports photographers will get motion blur – three consecutive exposures for each color will exasperate this.
Heheh sorry there.. Completely forgotten about that, havent used bulb ever since i left film.. Well i would love to see how they solve that 🙂
there’s been some talk that it’s bogus. I also find it a little suspicious there has been no sony patent around this process.
while this may work for scientific high speed video imagery – alot of things don’t fit with photography.
sports photography, dragging the shutter, nightscapes,etc,etc just dont work.
think of the times in which three shot exposure HDR’s don’t work – and you’re close to spots where this does not as well.
Note the caption for the leaked documents
“Important Note: I got this image from Cnbeta. But I already saw patents of that tech before and that’s why I rate the rumors with SR4!”
Admin said he saw the patents before though
still doesn’t get around the fact that each pixel requires 4 individual exposures in time sequence. i can see this working awesomely in high speed video – not so much photographically.
Yes, but each exposure is as short as 1/16000 seconds and the pixels are large. If the shutter is open for one second, they would probably change the filters thousands of times in the single exposure to avoid that type of artifact. The question is how their doing electronic color filtering.
So it looks like a more advanced version of ISOCELL? Can you enlighten me please?
This is not the same with ISOCELL.. This sony new sensor shifts the bayer filter so each pixels records RGB details
Hmm… Seems great but I think it is a miracle if Sony can introduce it next year… Hybrid A-E? A7000? A7RII? A9? A99II? A88II? A65II?
Maybe in a new product to ‘test’ the market first :p like sony always does
ISOCELL is just a marketing name for Samsung’s version of the BSI sensor. BSI is old technology from several generations ago(Sony launched theirs is 2009), and since have moved to BSI-II, and now stacked sensors. BSI sensors have been around since the iPhone 4.
This is like a Foveon sensor, but it seems it doesn’t use 3 layers of CFA like Sigma, which was the reason why it performed poorly in low-light. Supposedly this a new electrified CFA. How it works, and how it performs is the key to this sensor, and the big question mark still remaining.
Foveon doesnt use 3 layers of CFA, instead it uses 3 stacks of silicon wafer.. It uses quantum absorption of colors of the spectrum according to their wavelength as they pass through the silicon wafer that acts like a CFA.. 1st layer is sensitive to blue, 2nd green and last is red.. This stacks causes lost of photons as they travelled deeper into the layers, hence poor low light capability
Link for simple underatanding on how foveon sensor works
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor
The real problem with Foveon isn’t the absorption of photons (they are, after all, liable to be sensed), but that the colour channels heavily cross-contaminate. For example, many of the “green” photons will actually be detected on the blue channel. That means a lot of fundamental chroma information is lost and it manifests as lots of chroma noise at higher ISO levels.
However, monochrome noise at high ISO is relatively good as it doesn’t matter which layer detected the photon. After all, the Foveon has the potential to detect a larger proportion of photons that arrive at the sensor as it doesn’t “filter out” those of the “wrong” colour.
Obviously this is all very different to normal RAW conversion which explains the lack of third party support.
144 mega pixels isn’t that much. I think landscape starts at around 130 and truly impressive shots are done at around 280. When you get to that point, you’re no longer taking a picture to capture a moment…your taking a picture to relive it.
Stitching, multi-stitch plate’s and scan backs- tomorrow’s technology today. Take a look at these impressive digital large format samples using large format 4×5 cameras and scan backs. It’s mind blowing:
http://www.betterlight.com/fullRes_zoomifyLIST.html
Mmm…its just a notch or two more than an a7r/D800
The man says that the resolution on that mountain photo is 7520×6000 (45.1mp)
The 36mp sensor gives a resolution of 7360 x 4912
Most others are 8000×6000 although the money shot (see what I did there?) has 10660×8000, which is a bawsing 80mp or so.
That would be a color wheel right?
I supposed it to be on-sensor colour shift.. My guess would be the bayer filter being shifted 3 times to cover the RGB using a tech similar to IBIS
like tiny mirrors in DLPs ? who knows
I suspect this would be done electonically by generating a carrier wave then photographing the interferrence pattern.
This might also allow light amplification further increasing possible iso.
Of course that is only speculation at this point.
Say what?
Light is eletromagnetic just like radio waves but a different wavelength.
A carrier wave for light would be identical to a radio but at a differrent wavelength.
Hollograms currently photograph interferrence patterns rather than the actual light images.
There is nothing new about the technology I am describing.
Nothing new at all (limiter discriminator) , just not applicable to this situation. Could you show schematically how this would work for a camera sensor, just doesn’t make sense.
Good luck in electronically generating a carrier wave at optical frequencies. That’s around 600 terahertz which is almost three orders of magnitude higher than the fastest electronic circuit I’ve heard of (which was 0.67 terahertz).
In any event, I’ve no idea how what you are describing will work. As for holograms, when I played with them (admittedly many years ago), then they recorded the interference pattern from a reference beam and an object beam (the object beam was reflected off the object). The original beam had to use coherent light (i.e. not the stuff you get from a naturally lit scene).
In fact I can’t see what that’s got to do with the subject at hand.
nb. you can use light as a carrier wave and use an electro-optic modulator on it, but that’s the opposite to what you are talking about.
Nikon patented a mirrored approach several years ago.
You will have to have your shutter open 4 times longer if it is alternating between RGB and intensity pixels. It’ll have to have good ISO performance, which it should because the pixels will be larger.
This also could mean you could potentially put it into black and white mode to get something similar to the monochrome!
I’m not sure how they’ll negate temporal interference patterns with flickering lighting and how motion trails will come out… would they be all psychedelic? might look cool.
I’ve wondered the same thing… But I don’t know if it would need to be open 4 times longer… 3 different colors means 3 times as long plus whatever time it takes to shift the filter. I would expect at very fast shutter speeds it might be as bad as 5 times longer but at slower shutter speeds it would be very close to 3 times as long.
Though my bigger concern would be in the longevity of the sensor. If they are really going to be putting tiny filters on a sensor that will have to move it just brings up memories of DLP TVs that would often experience mirror failures on the chips as the TV aged.
There will be no moving parts on the sensor, this is 2014 not 1940.
I’m thinking a little outside the box here. Why would you need a ‘full’ seperate exposure for each color channel. The total exposure value could be a cumulative thing from all 3 color channels. The channels would only need sampling relative to each other then applied to the ‘total exposure value’. Thus in turn only one exposure is needed and each ‘pull’ as you call it would be part of the single exposure value. I”m no expert and just speculating out of my (you know what) so feel free to explain why I’m out to lunch
I am by no means an expert in sensor technology but I think you are thinking in mechanical terms and with an “electrified moving color filter” that might not necessarily be the case… Depending on how fast they can “move” the filter you might not notice a difference.
Let’s assume that they need to move the filter 4 times to capture an RGBG image and say if they can electronically move the filter 16000 times a second, even with a 1/4000 shutter speed, you wouldn’t notice any blur or suffer light loss. And by looking at the 16000FPS capture rate for a 2K video this seems to be very much possible…
It’s hard to imagine what the depth of their technology is but theoretically it seems possible to eliminate the light loss issue…
Why would they set it up to sample 4 times? RGBG is only because using Bayer method that you pull more green than the other colors. Wouldn’t you just need 3 pulls Red, Green and Blue?
You are right and “moving” the filter less makes things even easier…
How can I go on… shooting crappy photos with my current lousy cameras?
I ask myself that every day. I can’t even get out of bed and pick up my camera- it’s just to crappy compared to the next big thing.
I’d be willing to go into Interstellar’s (or Planet of the Apes’) “kryo” sleep and awake in a century just to play with the new toys. And make beautiful ocean vista images from the island of Kansas. And come back here to follow the ongoing E vs A mount debates. @animalsbybarry Do you shoot fish?
Not much fish currently..but that does not rule out the possibility that I will.
If true, this could be a leap forward in technology. You’ll truly believe your current Bayer camera is lousy once you see the results from a non-interpolated sensor.
I hope so! But even “small” sensors are so far beyond sufficient today I can’t imagine any 2014 camera with a 1″ sensor on up looking “lousy.” 🙂
I want to believe.
If you shoot crappy photos with current cameras – then the problem is you dear “i’m doomed”……
Interesting – I wonder if it will be limited to slow moving objects. Seems like an interesting idea, lets see if they can pull it off.
I think in exception to long shutter speeds the high iso capability of this sensor is enough to use higher shutter speeds to capture moving(not too fast) objects 😀
Sony is moving to mirrorless, which is limited to slow moving objects anyway, so shouldn’t be a problem.
Man. How people get easily deceived.
There is no x4 anything
It isn’t as if 2+2=4.
Research Sigma’s Foveon x3 sensor claims and facts.
144mp as a guide number is as useful as a bagpiper in a chess match.
I would assume that a smaller RGB sampled image can be enlarged to a higher resolution without much artifacts compared to bayer demosaiced image at the same higher resolution
I am not arguing the enlargement possibilities. I had a Sigma DP1 before and those 4.7mp could give me a very nice 7mp image and maybe a 9mp image if used at base ISO.
I am talking about the smoke created by a 144mp claim that comes out of nothing.
Hmm had to agree with that mate :/ where did that appear from
I meant the 144pm claim 🙂
Got deleted. It was there and a few comments below were also pointing to that dubious number.
To be fair, a bagpiper in a chess match could be useful at putting off an opponent.
How do you focus the sound on only one person when both are together? Is this a chess match with players in different rooms?
Of course not. Having booked the bagpiper, you will have come ready with earplugs. As an alternative, you would have spent several months acclimatising yourself to the sound so you can mentally block it out. Indeed, it’s not even necessary to actually play the bagpipe. Just the very possibility is enough to put anybody off their game. (You, of course, would know this won’t happen so could ignore the possibility.
It’s a tactic that has a limited lifespan as the other player would eventually be able to take defensive measures in turn. It’s also open to counter-attack with other objectionable musical instruments (perhaps a theremin or a badly played violin).
Never underestimate the possibility of putting players off their game in chess. Bobby Fischer was an arch practitioner, and won the world championship against Boris Spassky with the aid of some infamous gamesmanship. If he’d only thought of the bagpipes, he’d have achieved it so much more easily…
Bagpipes for the win?
“Indeed, it’s not even necessary to actually play the bagpipe. Just the very possibility is enough to put anybody off their game.”
This reminds me of another related chess anecdote, can’t remember between which two players. Smoking was prohibited during this game, but one player brought a cigar along anyway. The other player – a non-smoker – complained to the referee about this. When the referee asked “but is he smoking, then?” the complaining player replied “no, but he is threatening to!”
That’s one of those stories which is so good that you don’t want to question its veracity as you know, down deep, it’s not true, but would like to keep open the delicious possibility that it did actually happen.
I looked for it, i thought it involved Tarrasch but it’s actually Nimzovich.
There’s quite a lot of confusion around the story as well as research as to where it originated from (i find this fascinating):
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/nimzowitsch.html
Butt, wouldn’t farting during the match be much easier ?
There’s Bag Pipes for ya !
A fascinating slip. The conjunction that you started the sentence with would surely be “but”. However, butts are where farts come from.
Ore, I could have simply misspelled his name. Try substituting that and see if it makes sense.
SPOILER:
Yes, there IS another ‘fascinating slip’ in there.
Some call it humor, it need not be the best joke you ever heard _but_ when the opportunity presents itself (and the Information provided is relevant and useful) it adds to the knowledge of us all.
Unless you do not get it, then there is always the opportunity for someone else to share their wealth of knowledge.
If you live somewhere that has beans as a large component of your diet then you have an advantage you can exploit over the visiting player (and help from the audience).
canon is now 3 generations behind sony…..
Yet Canon rigid mount SMASH! wobbly mount sales…
HULK confused RX100M3 destroys EOS-M. EOS-M smashed, against floor, EOS-M no good. HULK sick.
HULK puzzled. Canon sales crashing. Canon no mirrorless. Canon no sensor. HULK smashes Canoncam against HULK head.
HULK smash imposters!
Something about the pixel size that doesn’t add up for me.
Your statement about moire is incorrect. While this type of sensor would exclude chromatic moire (and thus, those ugly discolorations), moire patterns still could happen if the image pattern sample exceeds the sensor resolution “just a little”.
actually it’s not “just a little”, but 2x – see Nyquist.
Hope they’re working with Adobe better than Fuji did with the X.
Arri and Phantom are two completely different cameras from different companies.
The current Arri Alexa camera from Arriflex is normal speed, the Phantom Flex is a high speed camera from Vision Research.
what happened to organic cmos?
Orgasmic con?
Turns out it is susceptible to fungal infections…
that’s more of panasonic/fujifilm’s area of research?
It’s a marketing term and unfortunately the admin has no clue how to put it into perspective.
It Biodegraded…
seriously confusing acronym!
“This is a more advanced solution than Sigmas Foveon sensor used on DP cameras”
No it is not. A color filter, even “electrified”, still is a color filter, “filtering” (losing) photons at any given moment.
Agreed, the sentence should have been:
“This is a more advanced solution than Hasselblad’s Multi-shot used in the H5D-200c”
Exactly, it is like shooting at base ISO 300.
The size and resolution of the sensor would fit m43 video camera. Maybe Olympus decided to produce their own dedicated video camera?
Photo and videography is about story and contents. Technology is just ar little matter. So, do not pixel- peep, just go outside and shoot! Here is my A6000 at complete night darkness with 35 1,8 OSS. Good enough as to techincal aspects. http://youtu.be/tbr7HxI6vWg?list=UUbdwnsZdvzcRVfhba-LYOMw
You’re using the latest and greatest apsc camera, no wonder the results are “good enough”, duh…
Sony SMASH! your mount soon…rofl
Youre mixing up quite everything in your little article. Go out and learn some basics about the technology you want to write about
Agreed.
Sonyalpharumors enthusiasm is entertaining, unfortunately the knowledge behind these claims are often lacking. In this case it’s a matter of variations on the Foveon sensor which is used by Sigma and presently being evaluated by both Canon and Sony. Don’t hold your breath. It will be like waiting for Sony lenses.
1.5″sensor in Z4? Are you kdding us? This is humungous sensor. Prehaps meant for RX10 m2 or RX20 whatever the name…..
The monochrome data per pixel is all there with no loss. The color data is at a lower ISO than the monochrome data. But it is large pixels and staggeringly fast frame rates, so neither ISO nor shutter speed should be a problem. It seems to me this could be a sensor for a groundbreaking HD high speed video camera. 16,000 fps it say. 16,000 fps? !
Such rumors…yet such wobbly mounts…
No one is falling for it. We know it’s you, Aquaman.
150 comments for a rumored sensor that may arrive in a year or is just as likely a hoax. And yet I’m still psyched.
Could you imagine how difficult it would be to alternate the RGB color filter overy this sensor in perfect sync with pixel readout? That would take some serious precision timing.
FAKE!!!
come on, who believe that? sound more fake than that old curved sensor chart
-576Mbps serial output, thats 60fps at full resolution, that serial output will never allow 16,000fps
-the size of the sensor its odd, too big for any compact camera (built in lense) and wont fit in any current mount, besides rectangle shape? first 2:1 aspect ratio sensor ever (good luck designing lenses for it)
-rectanlge pixel shape, just like that old fake curved sensor chart
-4K 240fps, not only neither video standar support that speed, how can you get 6144 pixels if the sensor only had 2052, besides all 4K standars had less than 4000 pixels
-what is a Stacked high “Spend-CMOS”
-the size of this sensor its like an APS-C, to big for a smartphone, like they claim
-pixel size its roughly the same area than the a7s
-if electronic filter function like they said, that means exposure time will be reduced by a factor of 3 everytime (i thougth everyone hated slt because we lose 30% ligth, now 3 times less ligth?), meaning that shoting at 1/16000 would need to take 3 fast shots at 1/48000 to put together via APCS (worst name ever), now, what iso and aperture you need to get any picture from 1/48000?
So technology has finally find its way to the first technique of capturing color photo – the digichromatography technique.
Just curious to see in what nikon camera we’ll see this sensor…
Looks like an interesting sensor. Hope there will be some previews / reviews available soon.
“But basically instead of having four pixels “RGBG” interpolated into one single pixel information (as it happens on usual Bayer sensors)”
Not true. Those four single color pixels don’t get merged into a single pixel. If that would be the case there would be no need for interpolation to begin with. Those 4 single color pixels are used to create 4 RGB pixels. That’s the whole problem.
Hey there negative nancy.
This is Sony Sensor Tech. Who cares what it goes in to first, it will hit our cameras soon enough. Also, just think about your PHONE shooting 16x faster than the phantom (likely monochrome). That would be crazy.
Admin meant we would need to merge 4 pixels into 1 pixel to create 1 ‘true’ RGB pixel, while this stuff could create 1 ‘true’ RGB pixel from 1 pixel (with 3x shutter time).
To Admin, so the big announcement is only for the Z4 at this time, and for furder implementation we will have to wait to the end of next year !!! that’s a long time, or am I wrong, please clarify this furder implementation time for camera’s, E or A-mount , thanks
God fucking damn it Sony, every time you bring up a new camera I want like the next day you just say “Oh but there’s a much cooler one coming like a year later, just trust us guys!” I mean… frack. My Nex-3 is starting to get crusty, but I can’t even get excited for the next camera you haven’t even announced yet before you patent a new tech that’s even better.
Sounds a lot more like the Transverse Field Detector technology reported a while back. With the “electronic filter” being a way to modulate the frequencies for better color separation.
Im ordering Nikon D750 next month and then I see this news…
fake. the “APCS” description looks like it was written by a 10 year old.
So basically this is almost a true color sensor. Well almost cause they still mention a color filter.
Wish they would just focus on making a pixel that sees all colors.