The new Sony SLT design patent.
A week ago a new source claimed to know that the next generation of SLT cameras will have a Flip Up mirror. And see what happened today, I just discovered a brand new published Sony patent describing exactly how this will work! More here at freepatentsonline. The patent has been sent in back in 2009 and it is certainly not a prove that the rumor I got is correct. But at least it shows you that Sony is actually thinking on it.
As you know the so called “translucent mirror” reflects about 1/3 of stop of light for the use of the phase detection mirror. And many SAR readers wanted Sony to implement a mirror lock up mode to be able to get out the best possible image quality from their camera. The next SLT camera is scheduled for a release in February-March. I am working on a bunch of SLT, NEX and lens rumors and I hope to share some more good news like that soon! As I told you, even Canon and Nikon will envy us 😉
I kindly invite you to join the very active and growing Facebook community! And s ubscribe the RSS feed (Click here) and Twitter (Click here) stream. You really will not miss all the news and rumors that will come from now on!
—
Reminder (SR = Sonyrumor):
SR1=probably fake rumor
SR2=rumor from unknown sources
SR3=50% chance it is correct
SR4=rumor from known sources
SR5=almost certainly correct!
111 Responses
SO wierd, I was thinking about this today, Why not have 10FPS mirror down sport mode for action togs then a 4FPS flip mode which gives MAX image quality. So obvious!
This is junk and Sony knows it. It’s too complicated, too expensive and duplicates unnecessary crossover technology.
Here’s what happens when too much is crammed into one camera…
An absolute Sony product failure that Canon and Nikon continue to trounce.
I like Sony, but this ridiculous patent should never see the light of day.
If it’s too complicated and unnecessary then we wouldn’t have any DSLRs, nor even more complicated A900 mirror flip-up mechanism.
IMHO: It’s one of the key things that might make SLTs more popular and something that’s VERY needed.
Oh, and by the way: THERE YOU GO!!!!!!!!!!!!! for everyone who told me over and over again that mirror flip-up mode in SLTs wouldn’t be possible. *fades away in glory*
Correction: “Fades away into obscurity.”
Wrong. Wrong. Just plain “WRONG”.
This patent is old, has been rehashed and refiled (again) and is nothing special.
I could patent anything that my wild mind comes up with. Regardless, it means nothing. I’d be willing to bet you a million-billion dollars that this will never see the light of day. Seriously.
Troll.
The SLT mirror already flips out of the way for sensor cleaning. I don’t understand why you don’t think it can happen. dSLRs already have the mechanism you idiot!
I think it’s safe to say that if Sony didn’t think SLT mirror lock-up was important they wouldn’t have bothered patenting it. Whether they incorporate that patent into a product, no one outside of Sony can say. But Sony is moving ahead with new cameras that can autofocus quickly that don’t include an SLT, so it’s also safe to say that Sony is interested in moving beyond the SLT.
Whatever, Dorks!
I agree, Sky_walker. I think a flip-up SLT mechanism can be easily competitive to the Canikon SLR mirror (and the years of refinement they had to put into it) for one simple reason: it doesn’t have to be nearly-as-fast nor withstand the number of duty cycles that the SLR mirror requires. Instead of flipping for each non-live-view shot, the moveable SLT mirror can have SLT mode (pellicle mirror stays down) vs. CDAF mode (pellicle mirror stays up). Sure they can try to implement a SLR-like constantly-flipping-pellicle-mirror mode, but it probably isn’t worth the effort.
+1. I rest my case.
You just completely obliterated any and all claims to credibility on your behalf regarding cameras. Good job. Thanks for the laugh all the same.
I see what you did there! You called me a Punk without any substantiating info. In fact, you Trolled in on another web redemption fool who also failed to provide any substantiating info…
Troll. Get back to me and let’s see if you really have anything to share with the blogosphere.
Great, another internet tough guy. YAAAAWWWWNNN!
I hope your images aren’t as predictable as your attitude.
I can’t possibly take you seriously as a shooter if you don’t comprehend the value of fixing the mirror in an upright position.
Yeah, a wimpy internet dork.
Who cares what you or your images look like. You’re a dork.
I’ll take your post seriously. You don’t know how to fix a mirror up or down.
Troll.
Why so negative?
Did you read the complete patent?
Punk!
Don’t have to. I wrote it, Troll.
Yeah!
Right!
This means no AF with mirror flipped up, obviously?
Contrast AF
or/and phase detectin on sensor?
I believe the sensor-based AF on the a99 isn’t a primary focus system, but rather once the regular focus points acquire focus, the 102-pt system merely refines it. So Sony would have to modify it to work as a stand-alone system.
I see the benefit of the pop-up mirror option as being for occasional use in low-light situations. It would be great for astrophotography (which I like).
its only a matter of software and not a hardware problem. it can be solved with new firmware. so sony need only flipup mechanism to be installed.
few RnD nut good innovation.
No different than SLRs. Phase detect focus, flip up and expose.
Of course CDAF would be offered as an option too.
CDAF would be precisely he point. Hybrid PDAF/CDAF (both on-sensor) would be the dream. They don’t yet have a sensor like that for APSC, though.
NEX-5R/6?
Very good news!
an new SLT camera will have two run modes available and is like below,
When using mode-A, with the SLT manner and a traditional PD-AF sensor working, including the image sensor PD-AF, like the a99.
But the mode-B, can switch the translucent mirror to be locked up, and on-image-sensor method to perform the CD-AF and PD-AF. An SLT camera in the mirrorless mode.
That makes the SLT camera can also be switched to work with a large mirrorless camera manner. Just is like the newest NEX-6 manner to be capable with on-image-sensor PD-AF and CD-AF. Makes an A-mount camera can be a SLT camera mode, but is also capable an A-mount mirrorless mode to run.
However,
Maybe a technical problem is here,
When locked the translucent mirror upward, what a way makes curtained off the backside of the translucent mirror, that prevents the stray light in the translucent mirror.
This moment, I do not see the patent way to have curtained off the backside of the translucent mirror.
Ok, to sum up the latest patents
– we will have an SLT mirror which is reflecting light in the IR spectrum and a IR spectrum sensitive AF module
– a movable mirror with flip up mode
– on sensor PDAF
– multi layer sensor which would provide better dynamic range and color accuracy
Sounds good to me. The only pitty is that I will not be replacing my A77 at least in the next 2-3 years
Hello Andrea:
Do you know if the upcoming SLT cameras will be entry level (A37 replacement), middle level (A57/65 replacement) or upper level (A77 replacement)?
I’m asking because I’m about to pull the trigger on the A77 + 16-50mm lens kit but I’d like to know if I should actually wait or go ahead with it.
I want to think that it’s too early to replace any of those, especially the A77, but Sony is known for replacing cameras every 15 minutes…
Any light you can shed on this question will be greatly appreciated.
As for the patent, wouldn’t that be a bit of a contradiction with the whole SLT technology thing? Unless Sony manages to include AF sensors on the imaging sensor itself, raising the mirror would lose AF, leaving it with manual focus, which can be ok for many people, but for that matter, they might as well should have stuck to the whole “mirror DSLR” convention or develop a hybrid system like Fuji did.
I need more information for this patent to make sense to me, not that I’m against it nor the SLT technology, but it does puzzle me.
No A77 replacement yet! Only entry level SLT coming within 3-5 months.
Thank you very much for the info, Andrea! Keep up the good work!
A77, here I come!
That’s a relief. Hope that A78 will come with flip-up mode! And that A77 will be kept alive and supported for as long as it gets! 🙂
The A99 was probably the camera this should have debuted on, but that ship has sailed now.
I’m probably asking a silly question, but here goes. If there is on-sensor PDAF, then what would the point of the tranlucent mirror and PDAF sensor above it be?
Thanks.
On-sensor PDAF isn’t good enough or reliable enough to be the primary AF module. It’s used to assist either the reflected AF sensors or contrast detection.
Whether that’ll change with technological enhancements I don’t know – my feeling is that the sensel size is too small to give a sufficient baselength to be accurate at wider apertures.
On sensor PDAF can be very reliable, IMHO. Sony can put a set of PDAF sensors to represent a single AF point of which consisting of near-macro-range, portrait-range, 10-meter-range and near-infinity-range.
Combining such a group of multi-distance PDAF sensors results in a very reliable AF performance in my common sense.
I think if on sensor AF was good enough right now, Sony could have cancelled the translucent mirror already. But then you are mirrorless again, which would make more sense with an E-mount camera which they could not have named and promoted as A99 😉
I think the flip up translucent mirror can be used anyway when flipped down for autofocus, then be instantly flipped up for taking the “mirror-clean” photo as a usual DSLR. So unless you want to shoot 10-12 fps you could have the mirrorless mode at least for every single shot or 3-4fps mode, probably. In video-mode the mirror could be always down for best autofocus performance or always up for manual focus mode or lowlight mode!
I am sure this will improve SLT-technolgy to maximum possible picture quality, before it finally dies 😉
It can, but only in theory (actually: It can’t be even in theory, but for that you need bit more physics). In actual usage it’s nowhere near the fully-fledged PDAF.
So far, on Sensor PDAF uses excruciatingly-small PDAF-zones. That is the only way that the can displace sensor-pixels without affecting image quality. You guys know how often you do pixel-peeping, you would easily be able to see where pixels were absent in RAW images.
That seems to be why the jumbo-zone PDAFs still are needed.
CDAF is what needs to get better quickly. CDAF algorithmically cannot tell whether the focus point needs to go ‘out’ or ‘in’. When it guesses wrong, it gets annoying. micro-PDAF on-sensor is hoped to tell the CDAF which way to go so that it doesn’t overshoot the target area so annoyingly.
The review are still complaining about the miserly-sized overall AF-area for higher-priced Sony DSLT product, so far.
Jep glad I stayed on the A900 ship 🙂
a900\a850 still perfoms well in good light condition but video and highISO makes this a99 a mustbut for ZA user
Sony seems always start innovation with 5-series. I am not surprise if it is implemented in A58. This is nice, and we can use whichever mode that suit the scene. 1 time (or 3fps) Mirror flip up for landscape and studio work, and mirror down for sport and video. Will buy A99 replacement with this tech. I’ll start saving.
I doubt the A99 replacement will have any mirror at all.
🙂
Yeah, I also think A-mount will go mirrorless. Maybe in 3 years time on-sensor PDAF and CDAF is already perfected.
Also I fear this design is only possible with APS-C if it is as simple as the given pictures. dSLT mirror is not at the 45 degree angle and that make it longer hence difficult to clear the lens in FF.
So far I am fully satisfied with my A77.
As this means that I get the same or better ISO performance of my A580, i’m saving my money to get this camera. And that with some of the advantages of the Pellicle mirror in the other Sonty cam’s. Good times are on us.
SO is it OVF or EVF? Now if it’s an EVF, then that SUCKS!
it’s EVF, EVF it’s the way to go
Patent shows that the light would only be reflected towards the AF module, so it’s an EVF, otherwise, there would need to be a prism in there and I don’t see it in the patent, I only see the LCD/OLED module.
jay wrote:
“SO is it OVF or EVF? Now if it’s an EVF, then that SUCKS!”
As already said, it sure is an EVF. Now, the only thing you have to do is to use any Alpha with OLED/EVF for some time, and you will find the opposite.
OVF sucks!
With OLED/EVF you are working much faster, much more secure and much more efficient than what is possible with any OVF. How long time one needs to discover all the possibilites the EVF technology offers beyond what the OVF does, varies between minutes and a month or two, depending on how much “die hard” OVF worshiper you are… .-)
.
I still don’t believe after the A55 that people think Sony is going back to OVF. Do yourself a favour, wake up mate and CHANGE BRANDS.
Same for me as long Sony also makes a NEX9, I dont
want a flipp-flopp mirror or mirror at all.
+1… just like I don’t want a flip-flop schlong!
Hopefully a 36 mp+ Sony camera will implement this! Awesome.
Strange that the MLU mechanism needs to be patented again.
different functions, the traditional MLU was to prevent vibrations on long exposures, this one is to remove the translucid mirror from the way and allow the full light to pass
the same way the Sony’s Pellix mirror was patented, it had different functions than Canon pellix mirror, instead os reflecting light to an optical viewfinder it reflected light to an AF sensor
Wow! This is the solution I’m waiting for. I’ll still buy the A99 and get the next Sony FF with flip up mode. Thank you Sony & Andrea!
Wow!!! Andrea claims to to be a “dude”, but based upon your brown-tinged nose, not sure if you’re just into camera based S&M.
Troll.
I would like to ask you to consider being civil in this forum. We owe each other respect and civil conversation. Statements when a person is put down should not be allowed. Photography is about so much more than equipment. I do not care what brand of equipment a person uses. We each make our own decisions regarding that. So please I am grateful that they are peple in this world who are smart enough to develop products wtih new features. Let’s we thankful that our present day eqipment is as wonderful as it is. Consumers can be just a thankless lot. I am thank for all the engineers and others who made much amazing equipment. If you all could just stop and think for a few moments and realize that anyone could capture excellent iamges with Nikon, Canon, Sony or other companies. If you want an exercise in humility try grinding a lens in your garage and shoot with it. Even worse try and get someone to buy it.
Thanks for speaking up, not sure what did I say wrong. Photography is my passion and hobby, and I’ve invested heavily into Sony gears (30k), so any progress in Sony cameras will bring me great joy. Flip up mode is good for Studio & Landscape.
Varn, he is talking about SonyCyberPunk. He has been rather uncooperative in the comments section.
What I meant is ‘Thanks Gordon for speaking up for me, not sure what did I say wrong that offended SonyCyberPunk.’ No misunderstanding here, thanks WhiteDesertSun.
This is a good sign and shows some innovation move on Sony’s part. Would like to see more such bold initiatives and more importantly, a well rounded useful product. 🙂
And how will this one be different/better than DSLR?
with the mirror down you’ll have full time AF (no black out due to slapping mirror), PDAF on video, no vibrations or loud sounds from the slapping mirror, higher frame rates, great to photojournalism and action
with the mirror up you’ll get full light on the sensor, good for landscape or high iso shooting
but in my opinion, SLT’s image quality is very good and dont need a flip up mirror, this is just to please the teck geeks and pixel peepers that infest the internet with opinios of a product that they have never tryed!
+1
I’m still sceptical. If you look at the patent, the translucent mirror is now at a steeper angle and shorter than current SLTs, which would be required in order to allow the mirror to flip up without touching the rear of the attached lens. As a result of the steeper angle, wouldn’t Sony have to re-design the reflective properties of the mirror? If so, the question is whether the light loss properties will be the same, better or worse than current SLT implementations.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the mirrors were very similar. Silver mirrors work well even at very acute angles. I have no great knowledge of the specifics of niobium mirrors, but I’d be surprised if they were greatly different in that regard. If they have to increase the opacity, it’s unlikely to be by a photographically significant amount.
Yah I’ll believe it when I see it
I doubt Sony would invest limited funds to reinvent a moving mirror just to eliminate 1/3 light loss with crippled AF.
Would also be like Sony admitting they made a mistake by taking the SLT route.
Japanese are very proud and Sony is too arrogant.
😉
john, there might be a different driving force behind this, assuming the rumor was true. The moveable pellicle mirror might just be a corrolary. See my post just below in regards to the FF LA-EAx w/SLT.
Also, having a moveable pellicle mirror does not at all negate the concept of the SLT and its ability impart constant and fast focus. It just gives it an extra mode to make the camera extra-sensitive when constant and fast focus isn’t needed.
This is actually a geometrically BETTER configuration all round
The reflected angle is still 45 degrees, because they have moved the AF module to keep it at 45, so no change there (plus they don’t have to change reflectivity).
The optimum mirror angle for the light going THROUGH the sensor is 90 degrees to the horizontal (because then the light path distance through the mirror is the mirror thickness). As you move the mirror angle towards 0 degrees (mirror is totally horizontal), the light path INCREASES because the incident light is now at an angle to the thickness.
So moving the angle from 45 degrees to make it more upright (closer to 90 degrees to the horizontal) as per the patent diagram is actually better!
We had a poster who came into DPR NEX forums complaining bitterly… scratch that, accusing Sony of outright fraud when he found out after-the-fact that his VG-900 was not capable of autofocus with FF lenses (i.e. no FF LA-EAx SLT adapter). *rolleyes*
I was thinking about this and realized that there might be an issue with trying to fit the existing type of pellicle mirror material at the same angle (which has a major effect on the percentage of light that gets reflected), but in a FF size. There might not be enough distance in the 26.5mm between the Alpha and E-mounts. I assumed that without the E-mount, there was (obviously) enough distance to make the A99 possible.
Perhaps Sony was cognizant of this issue and has come up with a tweaked pellicle mirror material for use at a less-oblique angle, which then makes the moving SLT possible.
It is only a patent. I doubt we will see it soon. Maybe never. Sony is unable to give competitive pricing even after dumping OVF, prism, moving mirror. Giving back moving mirror would rise their production costs, and prices… There might be more issues with dust, and reliability of translucent plastic mirror.
I am skeptic also because SLT future is not known. My guess is that for one SLT sony sells ten NEXes.
That’s what I’ve been saying since the invention of the fixed SLT mirror – why not make it flip up at least for taking a photographic image?
Now only the EVF has to evolve somewhat more, so that it can really substitute a good optical finder, and Sony Alpha might become a serious option for me in the future.
envy you? just remember… canon 1Dx 200-f2 …. canon vs sony is a no game for us
It’s about time! I and a couple others have been screaming for this since the day the A77 was released.
It’s so damn simple. The most difficult part is Sony getting over it’s own ego and pride to do it.
Very smart.
From the freepatentsonline link in the article – Filing Date: 08/05/2009
It’s over 3 years old the patent application, it’s probably something Sony was thinking of doing but so far hasn’t followed through with. There are other rumours going around about a change to mirrorless A mount, this I think is more likely.
I sooooo hope this materialises into a real body, I (and many others) have been screaming for such a flip up option since the start of SLT
FIG. 11 is really interesting – flip up mirror or not, depending on light amount.
If done like MLU, it won’t cost much and it will put Sony camera on par with the leaders in raw noise. Second, with MLU option, the mirror can take more light for AF (1/2 stop, 1 stop), as much as needed — for the best low light AF performance and the highest frame rate with continuous AF. Win-win, and another flagship camera?
A moving mirror ads back complexity and focusing inaccuracies alá Nikon D800.
No Thanks!
If I need fast autofocus I bring a DSLR.
90% of the time a prefer maximum image quality out of a full frame, mirrorless camera.
Stop screwing around Sony!
Give us the FF, high resolution, mirrorless, interchangeable lens camera that we are waiting for.
looks like as the mirror flips up 4b dropps down to the 4a (guessing cause of the longer mirror )
i woudl think it woudl be easer to make 4b rock back to the rear to make room for the longer mirror as it too starts to pivot to the top
woudl be a nice option to have MLU and some kind of (even if slow ) AF
+1
Well Done Sony!!!
This Is The Beginning Of A Good Start Since EVF.
A Camera More Focused On Photography.
Hopefully The Sensor Will Have PDAF In It.
This Should Have Been Released Together With The A99…
[完美]English
Filed on 08/05/2009
Published 2 days ago
A55/A33 announced Aug 24, 2010
😉
It’s just an updated version of this patent:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-and-here-it-is-the-sony-half-mirror-pellix-patent/
Indeed; the figures above are identical to Figure 2 and Figure 3 of this patent filled on 5 August 2009 and granted on 25 October 2010:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20100045853.pdf
Granted on 25 February 2010, not October.
Indeed – a lot of it is identical to the original patent.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0045853.html
This is it!
A mirrorless option is definitely of interest – but as there is a disconnect between Andrea’s discovery and the source’s assertion, then we can suspect that a mirrorless option could take another configuration. I hope the on-chip focussing technology will eventually arise, sooner as opposed to later. However, I’d really be interested in a new camera if it had a 50+megapixel sensor (yes, I would use it as I do landscape photograhy), with no AA filter. For video, it’d be great if some sort of “clumping” of pixels could be devised – giving both better iso performance and a smoothing effect from the virtual super-sized pixels. My ultimate dream is for some 4k video options – although it looks like 4k tvs won’t be affordable for a few years, people will want to produce their own content for it when they get their own unit. Anyhow, that’s my wish list – it’s gotta happen, and I’m sorry to say that a mere mirrorless flip up to make optimum use of a year-old sensor will not be a deal-breaker for Canikononians – esp since Canon will likely come out with a 48 megapixel sensor before a new Sony FF arrives. And, ya, I know many will deride this opinion because it’s promoting the megapixel war – but the arguments against higher megapixels (smaller, grainier pixels, poor iso, etc) were pretty much proven wrong with the D800(e). If Sony actually delivers a foveon-like sensor with my wish list above, then we’d see some meaningful change.
Your post is WWWWWWAAAAAAYYYYYY too long.
Troll.
Stop. Take a breath. You can do it. Post something that is respectful and positive.
:). It’s all in good fun. Don’t take it so seriously. I don’t…
TROLL!!!
NOW we are finally making progress into the right direction!
The mirror only makes sense with an optical seeker. Flippable or not, this is rubbish.
A step back toward DSLR. That would be a good sign. Show that they feel they can compete with other brands, which they now don’t do.
It still have the dreaded EVF though Walt.
😉
No, it really isn’t, Walt. Read more carefully.
“step back” – those are the key words, aren’t they?
The A99 and A77 have shown that Sony can compete very well with the other brands, just so long as the photographer isn’t stuck in the past. 😉
Good move,so for low light shots with the mirror flipped you will have CDAD assited by on sensor PDAF .
For manual focus photo/videos you can flip the mirror.
But for day time outdoor shots or at low iso you can fire way in SLT mode.
So now the canikon camp will have to think of another excuse,i guess it will be the EVF vs OVF.
A hybrid eye-level viewfinder in DSLR camera.
this is capable switchable between optical view and electronic view, in Live-View mode you also get an eye-level view way.
Canon already filed some patents in past several years, but Canon lately got into bad performance of the built-in PD-AF, so looks like Canon helpless to delay a hybrid eye-level viewfinder plan.
Canon’s built-in PD-AF on sensor is the worst one, unlike Nikon V1/V2 and Sony NEX-6.
ACTUALLY SONY SENSOR IS BETTER THAN CANON http://photorumors.com/2012/12/14/dxomark-test-score-for-the-canon-eos-6d-is-out/
Was there any doubt?
This will just increase the size of the camera and increase the chances of breaking. It would be better to just get rid of the mirror box altogether.
The most idiotic design to use for Sony, but a patent meant to stave off the competitors.
If they ever need to remove the mirror at exposure, it’s much better and easier to slide the mirror aside than to flip it up.
If sliding is so much easier, why have DSLRs been designed for decades with a flipping mirror?
DSLR have no space where to slide, but for SLT is should be possible!
What’s going on with the comments here?!
I’m not replying to Walt, yet it’s assigned there!
Why!!!
Hi!
We are fixing the issue on the comment system right now. Sorry!
Hi Andrea,
Any news concerning a possible A77 firmware update?
Oh no, not again.
I’m surprised that nobody has commented on item number 4, that’s obviously meant to slide in front of the sensor, when the mirror is up. Did anyone read the text of the patent (I haven’t).
Well, I’m not a camera expert, but I would guess it’s something that was used since the invention of the camera… To me, it looks like the shutter… So, not much to comment on part number 4.
I think they call that a “shutter”. 😉
SONY SECRETS?
When are we going to get a Full Frame NEX?
All this pussy footing around with half witted concepts makes no sense.
Is Sony limited in what they can offer because of their image sensor contracts with Nikon and others?
Where is the Full Frame NEX?
Where is the 36 MP Sony camera?