Imaging Resource had a meeting with the Sony folks in USA. And they shared the chart above which finally clearly shows how Sony’s interchangeable camera business is growing:
The presentation included stats from market research firm NPD, stating that Sony has been the #1 mirrorless camera maker for the last four years running. As with everyone else, 2013 was pretty awful, but check out the numbers since then. For the first half of 2015, their ILC sales were up 42% over 2014. Let’s underscore that: 42 freakin’ percent growth, in a generally down market.
and
Sony has shown an impressive ability to develop technology and innovate, and I guarantee that the results the DI division is turning in will translate into even more investment there going forward. I have no idea what’s coming next, but am confident that the next few years will see even greater advances than we’ve seen in the last few.
Yes, we can expect great things from Sony!
The only thing that worries me here is that A-mount seems to be completely out of the picture. And Also the APS-C E-mount systems needs a sign from Sony (A6100 and new APS-C lenses).
One more wish:…we need bigger cameras too. A new A9 series with larger body, larger batteries, better grip/balance with bigger lenses, no overheating issues and so on…that would be nice!
134 Responses
I totally, whole-heartedly agree on your wishes for the A9.
Aaaarrghh, behold, the death of A-mount!!! 😉
Pretty much. It sucks.
Sony didn’t kill the A-mount – consumers did.
The SLT killed the A-mount.
Nope. SLT line was the best thing Sony produced this far, bringing in customers (including me), who previously used Canon / Nikon, but saw the benefits of the SLT design.
What killed A-Mount is total ZERO marketing that the amazing SLT technology has received. Sony did nothing to showcase how much better A77 was than 7D and so on, and put even less effort into A99.
They gained some customers, but they also lost some customers.
And the customers they gained… were mostly even happier to embrace E-mount.
Nikon tried pellicle mirror design first, saw the pitfalls and binned it, then Canon, and finally Sony. It’s done stick a fork in it and move on!
From a psychological and pratical standpoint, photographers did not want to give up that 1/3 stop of light for the benefits.
As an E-mount user I notice it on my LA-EA4 adapter and it bugs the crap out of me. With the advances of the A7rii sensor – what is the upside of having SLT? would the AF-C be that much better?
For me, the benefits of SLT far outweighed the penalty. For shooting outdoor sports, I greatly appreciated the ability to shoot at 12 fps with my SLT vs. 3 fps for a comparably priced DSLR with a flapping mirror. It is only when I switched to indoor sports in poorly lit auditoriums that I even noticed that 1/3 stop of light loss.
in theory the slt mirror would be much better when your burst shooting, it never goes blind like a mirrorless does (and will do till global shutter is decent) and dslrs you have the whole mirror flapping about, and a unknown % of light going to the pdaf sensor… the downside of evf is the slideshow and lag effect.
but i have a interesting thought, as mirrorless improves, similer tech could mean canon/nikon could do a dslr with 2 viewfinders, a optical, and a evf with the mirror up.
on mirrorless lenses, only some of the range it makes sense to redesign for short flange, many longer lenses have the last element further from the sensor
I don’t see them advertising E mount cameras but still they do very well with those
Yep. Love it. Worst timing and marketing ever. It was polarizing and should have been offered along a well developed traditional DSLR. Right when noise performance reached a fever pitch with consumers as a selling point- they get dinged with SLT. Not a good move.
Yes and no. It’s not like Sony is a villain that intentionally destroyed the A-mount. They reacted to the consumer market.
But Sony did make design and marketing decisions that contributed to the decline of the A-mount.
In the short term, the switch to SLT was a smart move — It was “innovative” and set the A-mount apart from traditional dSLRs. Had some advantages of mirrorless and some advantages of dSLR. Problem was, the pure traditionalists turned away from A-mount at that point. In the long term, it was a move that contributed to the decline of the A-mount — As mirrorless improved, SLT became redundant.
What are the traditional advantages of dSLR over mirrorless? OVF, advantageous in some types of shooter and subjectively to some shooters: But SLT doesn’t have it.
Superior established lens lineup — But the A-mount lineup was always weaker than CaNikon, and now Sony mirrorless lens lineup is quickly “catching up.” So at best, it’s a tiny advantage now (2.8 zooms and long telephoto remaining for now)
Better battery life? SLT battery life is horrible compared to traditional dSLRs, and just slightly better than mirrorless.
Bigger body? Most buyers prefer smaller bodies, but the A58 is about the same size as the A7rii. And there is nothing that prevents bigger E-mounts.
So if Sony had never switched to SLT.. had they kept traditional dSLR, then A-mount would still have some clear advantages over mirrorless. But SLT no longer has any significant inherent advantages over A-mount.
So yes, Sony is only reacting to the market. But the last several years of Sony design and marketing, contributed to the market reaction.
I still remember how many people threw their toys of of their prams over the dslt move…
Perhaps they should have skipped over SLT, waited a few years and make the A-mount cameras mirrorless. I have to believe there is/was much debate within Sony after the success of the NEX cameras to make A-mounts mirrorless or continue upgrading E-mounts to where we are now.
I know there are many A-mount users rooting for a mirrorless A-mount, but what would really be the point of such a camera??
It would be technologically IDENTICAL to the E-mount, with the only difference being the lens compatibility.
As E-mount cameras can use A-mount lenses with adapters, with ever improving compatibility….
What would be a single advantage of a mirrorless A-mount? Dual card slots? Why not just build an E-mount with dual card slots. Bigger battery? Why not just build an E-mount with a bigger battery. etc, etc.
Mirrorless A-mount would be the height of a totally redundant unnecessary product.
THIS. There’s just no reason for them to develop a mirrorless A-mount. SLT was clearly a stop-gap on the way to mirrorless, but it’s clear that the mirrorless future is with the new mount.
Thus, there are alternative histories that could have saved A-mount:
1 — If they made mirrorless to accept A-mount lenses from the start, instead of starting a new lens lineup. This *might* be feasible today, but this wasn’t really possible at the time — You needed lenses designed for mirrorless.
2 — If they had kept A-mount as true traditional dSLR — Then it would still have some inherent advantages over mirrorless. Much better battery life and OVF being the most obvious advantages. While EVF has advantages and fans, there are legitimate advantages of an OVF.
I do believe that OVF will mostly, if not entirely, disappear at some point in the next 5-10 years. At most, it will be a niche product within Canon/Nikon lineups. But that won’t happen until OS-PDAF is perfected (it seems to be getting very close) and until the EVF-slideshow effect is gone. Until that happens, there will be legitimate market demand for traditional dSLRs.
Yeah, as SLT was just stop-gap on the way to mirrorless, it would have been nice if once they made that full step to a mirrorless line, they just switched the DSLT line back to DSLR and ran two parallel lines, mirrorless with EVF (e-mount) and DSLR with OVF (a-mount). Of course, to go back to DSLR, they’d have to eat crow on all that marketing they rolled out as to why DSLT was better, and no way were they going to do that.
there hasnt been alot for us a mount users to actually buy in recent years either, atleast of new sony product.
i did a55 > a77 >a77ii
lens wise the 16-50 f2.8 is great, and the 70-400mm, and the 135 1.8 and a few others, rest we may well be better with 3rd party.
and body wise i think a mounters want the sensors that are in fe cameras, 5 axis ibis, pretty much the current bodies in style and shape, try and fit mis shoe and the much better minolta shoe, or atleast a better adapter.
in terms of “new” stuff then a wider pdaf sensor, coupled with on sensor stuff for fast, precise focus.
chuck in the other advancements they have made, and app support.
but i cant buy that, because they dont make it.
cost arguement is crap, pentax churn out alot more bodies with similer market share, and R&D wise alot is shared by e mount or generic sensor business. really its just putting bits together and tooling and production.
Yes. When I was in the market for a full frame camera, the A99 was even more expensive than the CaNikon competition. There was a reason the A850 was so popular. Price does matter. Also a reason the A7 succeeded so much.
There will be more APS-C E-mount…. Despite all the excitement about the A7 series, the A6000 is probably their best selling camera. The A7 series likely has higher margins, plus you can sell more high margin lenses to A7 buyers. So there is reason to concentrate on the full frame…… But the APS-C is a nice market for a second-camera for enthusiasts, and as an entry point into Sony mirrorless. We may never seen a APS-C-E lens commitment (preferring to push advanced buyers to A7), but we will see further development of bodies.
As I started predicting 2 years ago… A-mount is redundant and dead. I’m not saying that there was a 2-year plan to kill the A-mount. More like… 2012/2013 — Sony decided to make a big big push into mirrorless and see what happens. They basically held the A-mount back in reserve, knowing they could always return to focus on it, if enthusiasts and pros didn’t take warmly to the A7. But as the E-mount has caught up/surpassed A-mount in almost all capacities, and as E-mount likely vastly out-sells A-mount, there is little reason for Sony to put any efforts into A-mount. In fact, the longer they keep A-mount on the back bench, the more A-mount customers they lose, giving them even less reason to develop more A-mount cameras.
Might they toss A-mounters a bone? Throw some updated technology into the A99 and release an A99ii? It’s still possible, but becomes less likely with each passing day. At this point, I’d say there is less than a 50% chance we see any more A-mount bodies. And if we don’t see one within the next 3-6 months, I think it’s safe to say that the nails are in the coffin.
Make sense but Sony keeping their options open n avoid answering any question directly on a-mount. No loyalty to their customers at all. That Sony strategy would backfire in a few years. canikons will someday produce competitive mirroeless. N if they make transition easier for their customers n be direct n honest, they will keep their customers n take the new customers.
Can’t blame them for keeping their options open.
We will see whether CanNikon ever “get it right.” If they produce their own A7rii cameras — with full functionality with their existing lens lineups, then they will save their own market share. But they have not shown any signs of really catching up yet, and it might eventually be too late. (Not too late yet)
They would certainly struggle to match Sony’s fe lenses for aa good while. Not to mention they’d be actively competing with themselves (which is less of an issue for Sony).
Non-issue if they skip over the whole A7, A7ii, A7s… and right to an A7rii AF system, that is fully compatible with their existing lenses. (either with a simple spacing adapter, or simply a slightly deeper body).
And if they keep full lens compatibility, then they aren’t competing with themselves — Just different models that accept the same lenses.
If I were CaNikon, I would try to perfect on-sensor phase detection… Then release something like a 5DM for D750M. It would be a thinner mirrorless mount, with a handful of compact “native” lenses. But it would also be bundled with a form-fitting adapter, that gives full functionality to EOS/F-mount lenses. (Let it fit more like an accessory that is part of the camera). I wouldn’t bother with a full line-up of native lenses, especially since fast lenses and telephoto lenses wouldn’t be any smaller.
A7rII is not fully compatible with A-Mount lenses (that’s marketing BS from Sony), and it’s yet to be seen if this can be achieved.
Probably not, so they’ll just enable maximum compatibility for the time being, meanwhile slowly replacing A-Mount lenses with new native FE.
Canikon can do the same, but they’ll still have to develop while new lens line-ups with native mirrorless mounts as well.
And, while they do this, customers may be unwilling to buy EF / F lenses, holding off for the native ones with full functionality on mirrrorless bodies.
Nikon’s selling point is lens compatibility that dates back decades. And Canon has sold even more of their EOS lenses, since the 1980’s. While Sony’s market share was small enough to “start all over,” that strategy won’t work for Canon and Nikon.
The A7rii might not be “fully compatible” with A-mount lenses, but it’s getting pretty darn close. And I can tell you that the Nikon 1-cameras have pretty darn good compatibility with Nikon G lenses. (Not perfect, they are limited to center point AF).
So I do see CaNikon mirrorless future, being built towards compatibility with their existing lenses.
The contrary is also true – if Sony, as you say, don’t produce an A99II in 3-6 months, it will be impossible for them to get back into the DSLR/DSLT market. Sony will be left with mirrorless as their only product, and it is yet to be seen if they’d be ever able/willing to produce DLSR-quality mirrorless, removing the line between the two.
I would say that the A7rii is a “dSLR-quality mirrorless” — In what ways does the A99 out-perform the A7rii? Slightly longer battery life and 6 fps versus only 5 fps?
The overall focus system of the A7rii is far superior to the A99… the IQ of the A7rii is far superior to the A99…
Low light performance? At least in some cases, the A7rii BEATS traditional dSLR: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6884391759/sony-alpha-7r-ii-can-match-or-beat-dslr-low-light-af-performance
The longer they wait, the harder it is to get back into the traditional market — In fact, they may have already waited too long. But they likely don’t see themselves as losing anything.
A99 is a bad example, Sony put very little effort into it. Although is has important advantages – fully-tiltable screen, much better ergonomics (dedicated AF point selector is a must), dual card slots. If we go to Canikon bodies, we also see weather-sealing, much better AF, faster operation, burst rate, buffer size, proper lenses (f/2.8 zooms and such), larger batteries and so on.
A99 is the only existing Sony comparison.
But let’s look at your list:
Fully tiltable screen? The A7 screens tilt, but not as much as the A99. Meanwhile, the A7 screens are more titlable than most CanNikon full frame cameras. So the A7rii fits right in with dSLR-cameras.
Ergonomics, including AF point selector? I found choosing AF points on the A99 to be an exercise in futility anyway — Choose the center point, or a point that is just very very slightly off center! With all the points cramped in the center, you weren’t getting much of a selection anyway. The ergonomics of the A7rii versus a traditional dSLR… getting pretty close, with advantages each way.
Dual card slots — Well, the A77ii and A58 don’t have dual card slots. So you can certainly be “dSLR quality” without dual card slot. And there is no technological limitation that prevents dual card slots in mirrorless.
A7 cameras are weather-sealed I believe.
Burst rate, buffer size… Honestly, these are pretty similar across dSLR and mirrorless.
Though it is only a 1″ sensor I have used several of my
Nikon FF lenses on the v1/2/3 { my friend is a big fan} using the Nikon FT-1 adapter and it works better than any adapted lenses I have used on my mFT kit or my Sony a7r for that matter.
The Nikon CX cameras though overpriced and not using the better
1” Sony sensor are actually superb performers regarding AF,fps ,shot to shot ,fast start up etc. So there is no worries about them being able to deliver a high performance mirrorless camera.
Though the DSLR market has shrunk so has the competition regardless of how good or bad they are Sony and Pentax are low end players in the DSLR market. It is hugely dominated by the two big boys Canon and Nikon and until just recently they have been the only camera divisions making money. Surprisingly enough given the fact that mirrorless ILC has now been going for 7yrs DSLR’s are still selling 3 to 1 {latest CIPA data} compared to mirrorless and remember these number cover all mirrorless models/makers . Every couple of months we get posts from the mirrorless fan sites telling us DSLR’s are dead, if that is the case they sure are taking a long time to get buried
I’ve also tried the Nikon J camera with the adapter… Yes, AF works fairly well. Whether that can be duplicated to full frame, with more AF points (Currently, it works as center-point only) is unknown.
Yes, dSLRs are not dead…. But they also aren’t the future. I still shoot with a dSLR — currently the D750. It’s a fantastic camera. But in 2 years… 4 years…. 7 years.. It’s hard for me to picture choosing a dSLR over a mirrorless.
Can you really see them keeping an unprofitable line going purely out of customer loyalty? At the moment the door is open to then making an a99ii, but my guess is the a7rii and a7sii were decided to be a better use of resources.
is a more definitive answer from sony on a-mount future too much to ask for?
As long as they have inventory of A-mount cameras and lenses, they will not give a definitive “we are discontinuing A-mount.”
That will destroy sales of existing inventory.
The mystery is… why are they even bothering with minor A-mount lens updates. If you really wanted to continue the A-mount line, then there are still holes and much-needed new lenses. If you really are ditching A-mount, then why spend even 1 penny updating A-mount lenses. These super minor updates (with big price increases) make absolutely no sense.
sony sends mixed messages and leaves you hanging
I think they need the a mount lens updates for use on their professional video cameras (e-mount). Still cheaper than updating the whole lens for e-mount, which would necessitate a whole new lens design (unless they want to embarrass themselves with the same size lenses as before).
Ah ! Interesting or is it an assumption ? Please provide us with the data subtanciating that the A-Mount is unprofitable. Thanks.
Sony plaid the dirtiest game with A mount.
E mount adds everywere
A mount hidden in the corner
6 bodies for E mount
1 body for A mount
Sony hope you will face your action.
It’s obvious A mount is dead. There is no enthusiasm and NO WAY Sony can change the direction of the receding tide. I have one more wedding in a week. I love my gear, but I’m certainly not adding to it any longer. Sony- you seriously suck hard on a lot of levels. I’m not trolling- I’m dead serious. How f’n hard is it to pump out a freaking FF body. How hard is it? They purposely want to sell A mount lenses to cover invested costs but push those to use adapters and buy new FE mount bodies. It’s not about the consumer, it’s about their bottom line.
For the love of God- sell the freaking line to ANYONE but you…ANYONE.
This x10.
Hate narcissistic Sony mamma. Abandoning those who set her upon this rusty throne.
Enjoy the temporary victory Sony. CaNikon will answer soon without demanding less ergonomics, less battery life, less flash system, less lens mount stability, less attention to loyal evangelists. Can’t fix that with a regretful firmware update appeasement.
Trash my tools and hand me a toy. Destroyed my flash system. Steal the good name of Alpha to prop up your “make.believe” candy story… Then plagiarize every AMount feature for EMount and call it innovative…?
Listen to customers? No… Sony covers tracks of embarrassment against forum whiners… that is all. No customer ever requested less battery life, less LCD articulation, less vertical controls, less card slots, less lens mount stability, less flash performance, less flash connectivity, less low light zooms, less support for anyone invested heavily into the AMount which props up the false lip syncing gawd of EMount variety show.
Yes… I’m pissed… Sony worse than a bad cheating partner who breaks a vow and burns the house… gives the gold to Nikon… and expects her own to love her for it.
Makes me sick.
A Sony RX1m2 with the A7rII features would countribute another 10% to that growth.
They better get on with it sooner rather than later.
Smartphones / mirrorless have replaced P&S and entry-level DSLRs, and Sony probably made good money with NEX and E-Mount.
But the enthusiast / pro segment is still not going anywhere! And if Sony keep playing with A7x, in 2016 even Pentax will be ahead.
Sony can:
1. Put their effort back in DSLTs (although by this time they squandered most of their userbase);
2. Produce first DSLR-quality mirrorless, bringing mirrorless into enthusiast / pro territory;
3. Quit this segment completely, focusing on premium P&S for rich people like A7x (plus video cameras like A7sII).
So far they’ve been going with the 3rd option… but, if they decide to get back in the future, it will be much harder, trust has been lost.
Problem is, prosumers (hardcore enthusiasts) are the ones spending money on gear. As long as travelling dad/moms are happy with their FE/E mount camera, Sony is still going to gain sales
I suspect an A9 will handle A mount glass just fine, and unify the mounts. The larger body, and a trend toward snappier performance is all that’s needed. Then, it’ll be one camera to rule them all!
Possibly if the adapter was seamlessly integrated into the body…
Adaptors are quickly improving – just look two articles back on this page, where you’ll see that metabones just added pdaf for their a7rii adaptor. I’ve seen some reviews that show some canon lenses perform at least as well on the a7rii as on a Canon body – and now performance will have the added boost of pdaf. There’s no reason to suspect A mount converters won’t rock and roll in the near future too.
And, if I may add, having seamless performance with all the fast A mount glass out there will kill the necessity of creating a much wider range of E mount lenses. Well, decrease the necessity at least.
Adapters in terms of marketing are no different than SLT. It can offer more flexibility- maybe even more performance in the future. It’s never a primary option though.
If the adaptor has no mirrors, then why is it no different than an SLT? That makes no sense. So what if it’s not a primary option – who cares if it works and works well. In terms of the future, given that metabones just offered an upgrade path to pdaf, the future is now. Given the time since the A99 was released, a new flagship, high-performing camera is due, and I suspect the A9 will be coming and be Sony’s new flagship, and first “pro” camera in mirrorless. The A7 series has been all about working out the bugs. And now the technological indicators are pointing in the direction of a killer A9 coming out fairly soon.
That’s called “AMount”.
Please describe…
… A time in history when the philosophy of “just fine” was able to “rule them all”.
Real .. figures with July included …
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201507_e.pdf
In short => Mirrorless 22.7% .. DSLR 77.3% …. both 5 to 6% more than 2014
My local camera store said their Nikon and Canon stuff really isn’t selling anymore, it’s mostly Sony, Fuji and Olympus
Funny thing, about 2 years ago I remember going into a camera store in Houston and they told me they don’t sell Sony, only Canikon because those are serious cameras…. And there was no resale value for Sony cameras since there’s no interest in them.
I think the “no resale value” statement is still true for Sony.
This is very true. My local camera store removed A mount. Nikon and Canon has always been front and center. However, every time I go in I see someone messing around with or purchasing PanOly products. They’ve expanded their shelf space for these product.
It’s a sad day when I’m sickened by the success of my own camera partner. For it comes at the expense of my partner abandoning me, my loyalty, my investment, my trusted ergonomics, my elegant flash shoe, my robust lens mount, my unique and beautifully designed vertical controls.
Look… EMount fans… I’m glad you like these new cameras. Please enjoy them. But stop trashing my AMount. If you don’t shoot professionally then you have no idea what’s been lost in this slow torture migration. EMount is fine for what it is. It’s great for what it is. But it cannot compete for what it isn’t… And what it isn’t is what I get with AMount.
Adapters are NOT a solution. They cause problems on many levels, while offering less performance. Now we are forced to use them with flash and lenses. NOT a solution.
In the camera market today there are only two types of cameras: Sony and Not Sony
Gonna be a lot of Sony soon in the junkyard willie.
Funny 🙂
Dear CaNikon,
Since you have demonstrated great pride and consistency in supporting your loyal and heavily invested professionals, I hereby proclaim my intentions for leaving Sony upon the day when you answer the EVF enabled mirrorless craze without sacrificing legacy lens and flash systems upon the alter of Sony tech masturbation.
Please answer this new generation of cameras with better solutions that photographers have come to rely upon. Consider this a replay of Minolta’s short lived success with Auto Focus SLR’s, until CaNikon caught up and walked away with the real prize.
Gonna be a lot of low priced Sony a7 series on the market soon… just like Mino Maxxum 7 series… after the giants awaken and start swinging the axe in a proper way.
Signed:
Sony destroyed my tools for the sake of a lollipop.
Which tools have they destroyed ?
Sony has only proposed different offerings to the market and it seems that some people were happy with these.
What else ?
Sony execs feel they can’t afford another disaster like the a6000. Its strong acceptance was a serious setback to their plan to herd the entire market to FF. The last thing they want is an even better APS-C camera that gets many people seriously questioning the “Move Up To Full Frame” gospel. They’re quite ready to forgo APS-C sales today in favor of bigger margins on FF gear in the future.
You got it terribly wrong. That camera was the biggest sony succes in last couple of years. They will gladly allow that to happen again.
I hope you’re right. I want to be terribly wrong.
I believe that the concept of small, with full features and superlative IQ is what made Sony so successful in their camera approach. They understood that bulk was a deterrent to many would be entry level photographers hence they created the NEX, RX and the A7 series cameras. I believe although I don’t know for sure, that these were / are all resounding successes for Sony.
If we think about it; what was new with these cameras which differentiated them from other manufacturers ? My answer is: The small form factor & superlative IQ.
Haha. It’s so funny it might even be true. 😀
But in the end their plan to herd people to the fullframe lenses will still succeed if the lack of good APS-C lenses continues.
That’s true, they could give us APS-C bodies but never expand the lens lineup. Are they that cruel?
Yeah, I’m sure Sony hate have multiple successful products in multiple market segments.
Camera makers no longer see ‘multiple market segments’ – just 2: high-end users who are either professionals, or want to look like professionals; and cell phone users, who are being written off as lost. They want to accelerate this division before the FF bandwagon loses momentum and to do that they need to take away the options in the middle. They’re fighting a natural tendency for people to prefer technology products that are as compact and lightweight as possible, without seriously compromising functionality. And they feel if they continue to improve APS-C they’re cutting off bigger profits in the future.
I think they’re wrong, but camera makers are panicking and bad decisions will be made in that atmosphere.
Given Sony’s sales of cell phone imaging sensors, the cell phone market is definitely not “lost” to the company.
In that sense, no, but they’ve accepted that hardly any smartphone users will be buying actual cameras in the future.
I don’t understand the logic… The “Taken with I-Phone 6” pictures are all very heavily software enhanced to fit billboard sizes without pixelisation… Once people realise this, they start looking at cameras especially if they intend to record their travels. For instance, I am a smartphone and iPad user and i also have a sophisticated point & shoot, an APSC and two full frame cameras… I do make pictures with all of these… And i know many people who do the same. We may be the exception.
One thing though, people who primarily use smartphones and tablets for making pictures usually post on Facebook, Instagram, etc… Assuming that they are not looking to do anything else, their camera device is very much fit for purpose and more. In such case these people have no requirement to buy a camera.
Now, as soon as some of these people are looking for more artistic pictures, large prints, etc… they do realise the advantages of a genuine camera… But aside from the cost, the first issue becomes the bulkiness which is usually inversely proportional to usage i.e. the larger and heavier the camera, the more it will seat at home and the less use it will see…
But then, take an other look at the Sony numbers, they are not doing bad, they do rather well! When they want to keep on doing well they will not change the chosen path! They will keep on going this way.
And to show that they do not have written of middle and low end users, look what they are doing in that market, they have created the RX series, they have still a lot of compact cameras, so in the end they can cover all from low end up to high end! And that is what makes a path for the people they can grow into it. people can get from the cheapest P&S climb to the RX series (the old ones are not that expensive) then go to the mirrorless APS-C and finally to the mirrorless FF or the SLT FF camera.
Not many people will follow that path completely but Sony will keep the path open…
Sony sees an in-between segment, but they are using the RX-series to fill that void. For me, I want something between RX (not good enough for sports, which is almost all I do) and FF (I don’t need 50+MP, and would love the benefit of 1.5x using FF lenses on APS-C body)….
How do you know that ? Are you working in this industry ?
If Sony does not offer a good APS-C, another company will. I don’t think Sony wants that.
Very possible, but the wait might be long and lens compatibility would be zero.
What do you mean, lens compatibility would be zero? We can use all E-mount APS-C lenses direct on our APS-C cameras, we can use all E-mount FF lenses direct on our APS-C camera, with full compatibility, We can use All Canon lenses on our APS-C camera with an adapter (when the new APS-C camera will have the same AF system as the A7RII then it will focus the Canon lenses acceptable quick), We can use all Nikon lenses with an adapter (even a fully electronic adapter with (reasonably) fast AF, when the AF system is the same as in the A7r).
All older lenses from older cameras can be adapted to the Sony APS-C E-mount cameras. So there are lenses more then Canon can offer for their DSLRs…
And when Sony will put IBIS in the new APS-C camera, like they did with the A7m2, A7sM2 and A7rM2, all those lenses will be stabilized too!
I think Sony is the brand with the best lens choice at the moment!
You’d wait a long time for a full-electronic adapter from Sony e-mount APS-C to some other mount. And it would cost hundreds.
Very possible. ( I’m looking at you Samsung….. )
NX500 with a built in flash and EVF would be interesting. Samsung already has some very good and inexpensive lenses too. Samsung isn’t distracted by FF like Sony either
Samsung is probably closing their camera business, so don’t hold your breath.
But wouldn’t that leave them with nothing that appeals to someone inclined to buy, for instance, a Canon 7DmII (e.g. sports or wildlife shooters)?
They may feel that the number of users who won’t eventually – with the right marketing pressure – “upgrade” to FF is small enough to write off, given the big profits on FF gear.
Remember the Micrsoft Surface Mini – the 6″ version of the Surface tablet? It was heavily rumored for months, but the announcement dates came and went. It was a production-ready product but MS decided it didn’t fit their market segmentation strategy so they killed it and wrote off the R&D. And, there was never an official word said – just silence.
I think that Sony will not stop making APS-C cameras for a few reasons:
1. It is a large number of people buying this type of camera, people who come to Sony and who knows by more Sony stuff (like lenses, televisions, other cameras etc).
2. People buying APS-C cameras are potential clients for the Sony FF mirrorless cameras.
3. Development cost of the APS-C E-mount is already paid back, developing new cameras will be a lot cheaper, so every penny they put in the camera will pay them profit…
When Sony wanted to kill of the APS-C line they did like Canon did with the EOS-M, make a dull camera that nobody will like!
Am I the only one that thinks its crazy to expect another camera from them right now? I mean, closer to the holidays makes more sense. Geez- they just dropped two bombs. Need to let it rest a little.
Of course Sony will make a new mirrorless apsc camera with the latest technology.
There is no basis to even debate it.
I want to believe. But it’s getting more difficult.
Was the A6000 a disaster despite it had the fastest auto-focus in the world at the time of release ? I believe and hope that APSC will remain along with full frame simply because some people do not want the extra bulk, extra costs as well as the very large files.
An APSC with IBIS, BIS / Exmor RS sensor and 4K would certainly be very appealing to customers.
very happy with the a6000. Image quality is very good at base iso. Very good price, light weight, and you can get the lens very cheap nowaday (24 1.8 $550 used) since everyone is moving to A7 series.
Not interested in A7 series atm because the weight saving is negligible once include the weight of 3 FF lens in the camera bag (16-35 f4, 24-70 f4, 35 1.4)
This are just US numbers. US market was known for buying BIG DLSRs over little mirrorless. Seems like US people are now adapting to customer behaviour to the rest of the world.
But still DSLR sales are about 3 times bigger than mirrorless sales.
Japan mirrorless are decreasing in 2015 !
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201507_e.pdf
Decreasing over 2014 which was an unusual year for Japan because their VAT went from 5% to 10%. Japanese went crazy in buying stuff prior to the raise which also boost artificially their economy.
After April 2014 their sales went south.
2015 is the adjustment year, we have to wait an see if 2016 will bear the same trend
It’s no longer a technical issue, it’s social. Except for niches exploited by pros, the advantages of DSLR – or FF – are becoming vanishingly small. Too many US users still feel the look and feel of the big DSLR is important to them. SUPERSIZE ME.
How do you know this about US users?
It matures with every Alpha style feature they steal for EMount. It will reach full maturity when the EMounts are nothing more than a return to genuine AMount style cameras.
The Pentax is coming. I can foresee that Sony would probably release the MOA a7…the a9 with a slightly larger body with ergonomic grip and spicy sauce coming in February of next year if not by this December.
“MOA”?
MOA = mother of all
I meant to say mother of all a7xxx
a slightly larger body with ergonomic grip, plus a 100-400mm lens. Sony is all set
I’ve come around to agree with you, the body is almost too small and I’m constantly hitting buttons unintentionally.
I go for a A99 body, no need to check SAR anymore.
Down with Sony! Long live to Canikon.
.
As a traveller, irrespective of performances, I would not buy any camera with a larger / heavier body than the present A7 series full frame cameras. For me the minimalist design, the small and light form factor coupled with best in class performance / IQ is what counts. In 2001 I bought a Canon IXUS 5 with which i did thousands of pictures, some of which were used for the cover of corporate magazines. Next I stuck with Canon and took a S90 but rapidly Sony released the NEX-5 which minimalist design, small form factor and large sensor was irresistible and got me into Sony. I then went for the NEX-6, A7r and a7r mk2. Now, Sony may develop a larger camera range along the A99 body form factor and ergonomics, this could complement the a7 series range… as the Pro range. These could have a universal mount allowing both FE and A lenses to be used.
Sorry, no time for pedantic semantics – figure it out for yourself.
FE 100-400 will do it for MANY of us !
a99 is DSLR in this chart?
The death of A-mount hangs like the sword of Damocles. Sony will chase the money, and they’ve made no secret in which direction it lies. But their failure to make the announcement, one way or the other, really amounts to cruelty, the anticipation of a certain execution . . . but when? ALL Sony shooters should be wary of Sony’s communication strategy in this regard.
Just plan for it to be phased eventually, and buy an LEA4 or 3 adapter if you have a lot of A mount glass and E body. E mount glass is getting faster and soon A mount compatibility won’t mean as much to (newer) Sony shooters.
I love the a6000, but an a7 with the 28f2, 35 f2.8, 55 1.8, or any adapted m-mount glass is very, very reasonable in size
like the idea to ditch my DSLR and just have one system for all my shooting in the future. Have one DSLR and then one mirrorless just for travel is not a very good use of resource.
Guys, you aren’t reading that graph correctly at all.
On the left is the ENTIRE industry dividing both mirrorless and traditional DSLR ILCs.
On the right is ALL of Sony’s ILC camera sales in the U.S. including both E-mount AND A-mount sales. I’m not saying that E-mount is not greatly outselling A-mount right now. What I am saying, however, is for you to remember that A-mount is part of those numbers on right.
Even with the declining sales, in the U.S. DSLRs still outsell mirrorless cameras approx. 3 times over. The reason Sony has not killed A-mount yet is because they need to have something to sell to the DSLR consumer base so they can hit their goal of being #1 market share in ILCs overall.
I still suspect we will at least see an A99II in some form or another between now and Sept 2016.If they can produce a fast, high performance camera (basically everything A99 wasn’t) and sell it with a 500K shutter like the A7RII, it will tided their A-mount user base over until they can perfect AF on E-mount with both native and A-mount glass.
My a99’s/900’s are beaten and tattered… Served me well with honor. Can’t wait until Sept 2016 for replacement. My Nikon competitors have three versions of the sensor that Sony denied their own since a7R.
Sony left out the dual bionz of a900, and 36mp from a7R. Then killed the flash system for good measure. They’ve been intentionally crippling AMount, and stealing the name and features away to EMount for validation it couldn’t earn on its own merit. Hate Sony, and will abandon them for the first professional EVF camera from competition.
1. The a99ii can never be an amazing high ISO camera, due to the SLT light loss. It will always be behind the best competitors.
2. Every day Sony waits to release an a99ii, they lose some of those traditional dslr customers. Some switch to CaNikon, some make the leap to e-mount. But not many serious enthusiasts and pros are currently buying a 3-year-old camera, from a mount with an uncertain future.
3. If I had to guess, I’d bet that e-mount constitutes 90-95% of current Sony ILC sales. And if they did entirely drop a-mount, a decent percentage of those customers would switch to e-mount. In other words, I doubt killing a-mount would cost them more than 2-3% sales volume at this point. Which may not be worth the cost of developing, manufacturing, marketing, and distributing the a-mount.
1. If Sony puts a 24 MP BSI sensor in A99II it will have the ISO range of A7S making that SLT irrelevant and allowing it to easily outperform A7RII on the ISO front. Furthermore, with the copper sensor backing they implemented on A7RII, it would allow for greater burst rate than A77II. That combined with updating the AF to use the on-sensor coverage of A7RII with an updated version of the A77II AF module would make for one heck of a camera. Anyone who has a decent amount of A-mount glass would be interested in that camera & there are 16MM lenses in circulation.
2. A-mount users who bought into E-mount don’t suddenly become EXCLUSIVE E-mount users. Many A-mount users who purchased E-mount cameras still rely on A-mount cameras for big jobs due to ergonomics, battery power and performance (A77II). These same customers would love a new high-performance A-mount camera for those same jobs they’re relying on A-mount cameras now.
3. Of course — I would believe this because there are no new A-mount bodies to buy, but since there are easily more than 100x as many A-mount lenses in circulation, all it would take is one amazing A-mount body and the percentage would change immediately. Since Sony pushed all the consumer ILCs over to E-mount, E-mount will always retain a higher market share moving forward.
However, Sony says the customers for A-mount are still there, and if they can profit on another A-mount camera, they will release another A-mount camera.
BSI or not, SLT mirror takes 30% of light as therefore performnance will still be inferior to SLT-less camera with same sensor
It depends on what you mean by performance.
An A99II with 24 MP BSI sensor and the ISO range of A7S would still provide clean ISO 6400 with the SLT mirror down (which is cleaner than A7RII), superior AF to even A77II, and insanely fast burst rate, and the DSLR ergonomics and shooting experience photographers know and love. Even with the SLT mirror, this camera would likely best the D4 and 1Dx on both ISO & AF performance as well as potentially beat them on the burst rate.
Sure, the A7S would likely beat it at ISO 102,000, but who cares?
If Sony can produce a camera that does clean ISO 6400 with amazing full-time continuous AF (no black outs, thanks to SLT), full time live view, 500K shutter, with top continuous shooting speed of 12-14 FPS with a buffer in the range of 64 frames RAW, plus mirror lock-up mode for extreme low light situations, and true 14-bit RAW, what’s not to love? I don’t know a photographer with A-mount glass who wouldn’t be interested in a camera like this.
according to dxomark a7s doesn’t outperform a7rii until 6400..12800 iso, so your hypothetical SLT camera won’t have cleaner 6400 iso than a7rii.
and why you think it would have superior AF to A77ii?
1. You’re comparing an aging non-BSI sensor against a new BSI sensor. A 24 MP BSI sensor would absolutely outperform a 42 MP BSI sensor in terms of sensitivity (expanded ISO range) and dynamic range and I maintain that even with the SLT mirror, a 24 MP BSI sensor with a range of 50-409,000 would outperform the A7RII 42 MP sensor at ISO 6400.
2. Judging from Sony’s past implementation of tech they would likely build on the hybrid AF system of A99 by expanding the OSPDAF to the coverage of A7RII combined with a new dedicated PDAF module which would be essentially an updated, multi-cross version of the A77II PDAF module. Unlike all mirrorless cameras, the SLT mirror prevents AF blackouts so you have full time tracking. It would be one heck of an AF system.
Again, who wouldn’t be interested in the camera I described above? What’s not to love about those specs?
It’s not aging, it’s less than 1 year old (A7SII has the same sensor)
2. if they ever make a99ii, it’s likely that they just put AF module from A77ii and that’s it
Many people would like such specs, but some would complain 24 mp is so 2011 and your claim it will have cleaner 6400 iso is unsubstantiated.
Again, you keep fixating on individual features. Look at the whole package.
Also. 24 MP with ISO 100-6400 is dated. 24 MP BSI with ISO 50-409K has never been achieved before.
There’s nothing else to say here really. It sounds like you’re arguing for the sake of arguing now.
Notice the chart above, Sony mirrorless growth didn’t begin until after stealing Alpha name, Alpha menu, Alpha steady shot, Alpha full frame, Alpha Eye-Start, Alpha larger grip, Alpha AF/MF button, Alpha AEL-toggle, Alpha Vertical Grip option, and promoting it under the full lens lineup of Alpha lenses using adapted Alpha SLT technology.
Mark my words… next EMount will have full Alpha LCD movements, Alpha joystick, and probably use larger Alpha batteries.
Idiots could have saved us all a lot of time and money by putting full frame sensor inside a33 size body years ago… with sensor shift for great macro and adjustable registration for lens adapters. We’d all have been much better off and no mirrorless toy could have come close.
Idiots… greedy game shooter mentality idiots who don’t know a thing about camera design beyond what they steal from Alpha.
Another beautiful and clear chart by Sony. Almost as beautiful as their diagram of the image cube.
He’s obviously talking past you. And that’s ok. If by now, you don’t know what’s been lost, abandoned, betrayed… then you won’t be capable of hearing, listening, understanding anything but your own happiness with whatever EMount Sony seduces you with.
How tragic to see civil wars among sony owners.
Fuck the bigger camera request. It isn’t necessary and you can get a damn battery grip is you want. I’m so fucking sick of the DSLR crowd including the OP trying to turn these cameras into a DSLR. And what the hell is SAR buying into the overheating bullshit for. Wtf.
Interesting, since these numbers contradict other numbers floating around (that is, if I can even interpret these strange graphs placed in unintuitive juxtaposition).
Highly touted is how wonderful the A6000 product is. Unmentioned at all is the low prices that Sony has been selling it for.
Not surprising at all that Sony would do good by actually selling a nice product at an affordable price. Mirrorless was a great concept- slashing component prices by leaving out parts that are in an SLR, then claiming that fewer parts and cheaper lens corrections is somehow ipso facto futuristic.
The thing is, most manufacturers kept their prices sky high, although their costs were much reduced. Comes Sony who also lowers its prices… and then it sells!
We’re supposed to assume that sales only arise from camera features. In reality, a camera that costs $200 less than the other mirrorless makers has a lot of appeal to consumers. But we are not supposed to talk about price on fan sites.
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I second that.
Also, there are many ways to add controls besides just making camera bigger (e.g. this is an “arm”):
We’re not trying to turn THESE cameras into DSLRs. But since Sony is not going anywhere with A-Mount, they have to release full-sized FE bodies.
It’s not about batteries or overheating, it’s about ergonomics, don’t you get it?