This could be the next sign that the A77 and A65 will be replaced soon. The A65 is no more sold via Amazon US itself (Click here). And BHphoto marked it as Back-ordered. What I am not sure about if there will be two APS-C A-mount cameras to replace them. I only got info about one APS-C model. Maybe that one will replace them both (which makes sense anyway).
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I really hope they’re going mirrorless with the replacement. Sony makes good sensors for low light performance, but that’s ruined by the fixed mirror. Don’t get me wrong, I prefer that over the old loud and shaky traditional mirror, and EVF, but the mirror has to go now.
Is there really no situation where the standard PDAF is a benefit? And aren’t the new mirrors supposed to be up from 67% transmission to 80% transmission? Is 1/120s really that much better than 1/100s? Or perhaps I am just missing something about the real effects of SLT. Please educate.
The shutter speeds are no different. The sensor gain is simply boosted to account for the 0.5 stop loss of light. Obviously this will introduce a bit more noise, as it is basically the same as upping the ISO.
If your looking for those levels of performance be prepared to pay at least 2 to 3K.
Most of the SLT statement that are made are dated. Its doesn’t really have a huge impact on real world performance. You loose a 1/2 or 1/3 stop of light. The Steady Shot (+3 stops) internal stabilization more than makes up for it.
I’d hope to to see a massive increase in ISO performance of the sensor improve though. Remove the mirror and the AF system will suffer, and the new system is supposed to be fast.
There has been three years of R&D since the A77 launched, and Sony’s sensor division has made breakthroughs in low light performance (+2.7x).
We will see in the next week how the replacements perform. I wouldn’t be surprised if the A77 (A79) replacement outperforms the A99, and A7 (not the A7r).
The SLT mirror still causes ghosting given the right conditions like night shots with lights.
Also the in-body stabilisation can’t make up for things in times where the “other guys” have optical stabilisation. And optical stabilisation is far better in terms of effect and how it helps PDAF.
The SLT system, as elegant as it sounded when it was first presented in 1965 by Canon, it’s now a freak show compared to Canon’s own Dual Pixel AF which just blows SLT out of the water:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/standard_display/daf
If I had to choose between a system that could do phase detect off the entire sensor or one that had to add a slanted mirror in the optical path that reduced the light and introduced aberrations only to let a little bit of light in to a small number of phase detect points, I won’t be scratching my head about it. And that’s without even considering the lens selection.
The A55 had ghosting, the mirror was improved on the A77 and fixed the issue.
Only with the a55. I use my a77 for night work a lot (street and landscape) and have never had an issue with ghosting.
Old myth repeated stays an old myth.
Since the A55/A33 (and subsequent improvements to the mirror) there has been no example of ghosting, anywhere. None, zilch.
And as for “blown out of the water”, the things that dual pixel technology benefits from are smoother AF and at a wide aperture range. But for speed it lags miles behind still. Shooting action (sports, running kids, BIF) etc., it’s still no comparison, with SLT cameras “blowing them out of the water”, both in video and LV.
This issue was fixed with the A77. I have never, ever, had any ghosting when shooting high contrast or night shots, period. And really, you are going to cite a Canon press release as your evidence? Here’s something just slightly less biased: http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-70D-video-AF-test-how-well-does-the-new-sensor-based-AF-perform
Where did you get 2.7x from and how do you expect an APS-C sensor to outperform FF?
Thomas, many of us want fast AF with our A-mount lenses and you aren’t going to get that without a mirror. Why do you think there is still a mirror? 😉
Fast mirrorless AF, check. Those Olympus cameras are amazing! Now, having an effective AF tracking capability on a mirrorless body, a DSLR is still king there I’m afraid. Can’t quite say the DSLR is dead yet.But I have no doubt we’ll see some mirrorless models come out soon that can take on the task with the speed of innovation amongst the mirrorless manufacturers thanks to such a competitive market.
Good. When Olympus goes under next year Sony can buy their mirror-less tech/patents at a low price, and dispose of the rest.
The reason olympus is so fast is because it has a smaller sensor.
I have the E-M1 and it is a great camera in many ways but honestly the C-AF and tracking is very poor compared to my Nikon DSLRs. It is certainly a step forward compared to my previous mFT cameras but it would never be my choice for fast C-AF
+1 ! There is a mirror for the PDAF dedicated sensor. No mirror and the AF gets slower, much slower… Like with the A7r.
I received my A7r yesterday and opening the box was my first time seeing it as I am in Luanda, Angola these days and this camera is naturally not in shops here. I saw it on the net and decided to get one to complement my NEX-6. I did not get the 55mm lens as these are out of stock in Singapore, Sony does not do well there. I found it was as large as the Olympus OM-2 I used before to switch to digital cameras. The A7r is large va the NEX-6 and autofocus is slow so I thought that the best would be a small and fast DSLR not larger than the A7r or smaller. Mirror, semi-transparent or no mirror should be irrelevant providing the size is small, sensor is large, resolution excellent and AF is blazingly fast…
The A65 was a incredible value when it was released, too bad it always has been overshadowed by the A77
The A65 is a great camera and it sells well. I think its the top selling SLT again. It should be the entry A-Mount, because it is so capable for its price.
I think there are no bad effects from SLT -compare the low light DXO scores against the A580 and Nikon D7000.
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-SLT-Alpha-65-versus-Nikon-D7000-versus-Sony-Alpha-580___735_680_685
I had hoped Sony would go mirrorless APS-C A mount and see if that improved the noise situation. Even my A99 just beats the Nikon when it should compete with the D600.
Just to point out – you are comparing 24MP A65 with 16MP in the other two so there is a disadvantage.
To be honest though there probably wouldn’t be much difference if you used the 16MP SLT (A55) instead.
There is a 33% decrease in light loss from the mirror on the new models. The sensors in A66/A79 are a generation ahead of the A7 or A7r’s. That is likely one of the reasons for the six month delay.
We should expect massive increases in ISO, and AF performance, they will likely be highest performing APS-C cameras on the market.
I expect the A77 performance to be equal or greater than the A99.
You’re likely going to be disappointed then, because a big step in efficiency between two generations of sensors, is usually around half a stop. Which in practical terms isn’t as huge as a lot of people often make things out to be.
On top of that, Bayer sensors have approached a brick wall around 60% quantum efficiency since around 2010. There’s not much more to gain unless the Bayer filter disappears. On top of that, ceteris paribus an SLT would still be at least a third of stop behind a non SLT using the same or similar sensors and another quarter to a third if it uses the current sony on sensors PDAF (see A99, A7), not to mention the typical very selective Sony CFA’s.
In other words, it’s unlikely to beat cameras like the D7100 or even the Sony sensor equipped K3 in low light, certainly if the mirror doesn’t flip. And it will definitely not beat the A99. There’s no way it will gain over a stop and compensate for a difference in sensor size of a factor 2.3.
What about back illuminated sensor?
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201208/12-107E/index.html
The largest BSIs so far are the 1-inchers equipped on the RX100 MKII, making the jump to APS-C size would certainly mean a great deal.
But the 1″ BSIs have a higher base ISO, I don’t know if its a limitation due to the relatively small size or due to the BSI design itself.
BSI and stacking technologies compensate for loss of efficiency due to wiring and electronics blocking light reception. Those losses (and thus the gains with the above technologies) increase as pixels become smaller (wiring and electronics usually don’t scale down equally). The RX100 II/ RX10 sensor has the equivalence of 63 MP on APS-C, a far cry from current pixel densities on larger sensors. Thus the gains will be much smaller too. DXO measured about half a stop improvement for the RX100 II Emor R sensor over its regular Exmor sibling.
Unlikely. Two camera generations have launched since 2011. The SLT have improved 33%. So 1 stop of performance is reasonable.
I’m Sorry that your a Nikon fan, but the D7100 isn’t that great (sucks). I’m sorry to hear about Nikons declining profit margins (-57%), and its failure to capture any significant mirror less-market share, and I very sorry to hear about the DF 3K for that POS WTF are they thinking).
Its a shame they aren’t adapting to the mirror-less world around them, because the A-Mount is, and in 2015/16 mirror-less A-Mounts sporting 54mp non-bayer sensors will hit the market.
But the A79 is coming and we really don’t want to hear from Nikon fans so go and pray for Nikon. Nikon will bankrupt soon enough, and the 54mp Mirror-less A-Mounts users will dance on the F-Mount’s grave.
RIP Nikon 1917-2017
“Nikons declining profit margins”
It is a bit ironic bemoaning Nikon’s decline in profits when compared to the huge losses faced by the major mirrorless manufacturers imaging divisions. Olympus, Panasonic and Sony imaging divisions have all made very significant losses. All camera companies are having to deal with a significant decline in P&S sales.
The Sony share of the DSLR market has contracted ,in large part due to the limitations of the current SLT technology. The fact remains that the latest CIPA data shows that world wide sales of interchangeable lens cameras are split 82% DSLR 18% mirrorless. In all likelihood if the 54mp sensor comes into being Nikon cameras will be first to use it.Nikon sell vastly more DSLR models than Sony A-mount .
“The Sony share of the DSLR market has contracted ,in large part due to the limitations of the current SLT technology. ”
The technology has nothing to do with it. Sony’s lack of market penetration isn’t anything to do with their cameras, it’s the Sony badge and lack of support of the system.
Put a Nikon badge on a Sony SLT and it would sell by the boat load. Nikon users would love it.
Whistling in the dark. Nikon has a significant presence in the mirrorless world, but consumers are speaking with their wallets and despite constant forecasts, mirrorless has not taken over and in fact DSLRs are gaining again. Nikon remains profitable in its camera line, Sony has not been profitable in its camera line and continues to be a money loser.
Not sure what you’re smoking but:
A) I’m not a Nikon fan (I shoot with Sony)
B) The D7100 has one of the most efficient sensors in low light, it just suffers from banding at low ISO, different topic
C) 33% increase in efficiency would gain you about a third of a stop
@JWDOY:
Again two big assumptions.
When SLT was introduced, it was far more popupar than rapidly declining Sony classic DSLR sales (the A55 was already their bestselling APS-C camera in accumulated sales after just a year, trouncing the A700, despite the latter being for sale much longer), thus to attribute a suggested failure in (large) part to SLT tech is unsupported at best, nonsense at worst.
And Nikon has always vastly outsold Sony with ILC’s, yet the A700 reached the market with 12 MP CMOS before the D300 did. Nikon never used the at the time of introduction excellent (classleading in allround performance) 14 MP CMOS sensor, was late to use a revision of the first 24 MP FF sensor and also came second to using the 16 MP APS-C sensor (nor used the 24 MP one at introduction).
Only the D800 is a recent exception, so to suggest Nikon will probably be first is again assuming without a solid foundation.
“The technology has nothing to do with it. Sony’s lack of market penetration isn’t anything to do with their cameras, it’s the Sony badge and lack of support of the system”
That is not correct for many users the SLT technology and its impact on high ISO was a major deal breaker .The difference between the A99 and D600/D610 using essentially the same sensor at high ISO is very marked. The A99 just barley outperforms the best APS models let alone the best FF options.
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D610-versus-Nikon-D7100-versus-Sony-SLT-Alpha-99___915_865_831
@ Zohee35
Do you have actual data to support that the “A55 was trouncing the sales of the A700 “ due in any way to the SLT tech as opposed to the A55 being half the price with a new sensor.
There was quite a bit of interest in the A99 in both the Nikon and Canon forums, the SLT tech was quoted as a major drawback of the camera. The price point didn’t help the A99 launched at £2400 with thanks specifically to the SLT tech only fractionally better high ISO than the APS models that followed a couple of months later.
Only the most devoted of Sony fans could deny the negative impact that SLT had on both image quality and sales, fact is Sony’s share of the DSLR/SLT market has declined since the release of SLT.
As for the low ISO banding of the D7100 the only examples of this I saw were when underexposed and pushed by 3+ stops in post. The kind of “issue”, that users of other brands love to exaggerate. Though I do not own the D7100 I saw the “evidence” . Sony fans in particular seemed peeved because Nikon’s designed and Toshiba fabricated sensor had managed to outdo the best Sony APS at the time
The 24mp sensor in the A99 came out at the same time in the D600, the 36mp sensor in the D800/E came out a 20 months before the A7R. With the ever diminishing Sony share of the DSLR/SLT market it is actually even more likely that Nikon will get access to any new FF sensor first. Considering the far higher Nikon DSLR market share compared to Sony and the profits of sales of tens of thousands of sensors Sony would be foolish not to.
Search the Dpreview forum, there was a source with numbers per model, all the way back to the first Minolta digital A mount cameras, until about april 2011 IIRC.
The A55 had been in stores for less than a year, the A700 for 3 and a half years. And the point isn’t that it specifically outsold the A700, the point is that it outsold any preceeding A mount camera, by a large margin, including preious entry level models. The A580 attracted about 10 times less interest than the A55 as per (previously available) Dpreview “click” statistics. Even after its review. In fact, it showed historically low interest compared to any Sony camera. One could say it wasn’t advertised as much, fact is that it was announced around the same time at Dpreview, and its predecessors held a pretty good reputation before it.
Fact is that it initially brought them better sales. Linking current affairs to SLT, is just assumption.
I could care less what forum users from competing brands use to rationalize their investment or lack of Sony investment. There’s always a stick to be found to beat a dog, as we tend to say here.
I don’t buy the ISO argument either, as the difference between a 5DMKIII/D600 and A99 is marginal, less than the difference between a D7100 and A99. And that’s before accounting for the possible benefits of stabilization with all quality primes in low light. Most buyers don’t base their buying decision on less than a stop difference (that’s forum pixelpeepers for you), they look at the brand name, their previous investment and the overall package.
The D7100 is known to be a bander, even the official Nikon samples showed banding, partially thanks to active D-lighting. But pushing a RAW file with shadows less than 2 stops already reveals it too, which in practise means much less usable DR than a D7000. Or many other current cameras. It’s a well covered subject and only true Nikon denialists would tell me it doesn’t exist or can’t be an issue.
And you keep rehasing the argument about sensor release dates, ignoring the plenty counter examples given and the fact that Sony has always had a much lower share. That didn’t stop them before. It has everything to do with timing. If Nikon isn’t ready to release its new camera and Sony is, then Sony will release first, just as often happened in the past. It’s quite simplistic to suggest that the release of a new camera is soley depending on the availability of a brand new camera and having to be first to present that sensor to the world. There are many other reasons holding back new releases.
@ Zohee35
As I suspected no actual data ” some anonymous dude on DPreview said yeh right lol. Obviously a camera half the price of another with a newer better sensor sold more that is simple common sense and again with DPreview as a “source”. Every “example” of the D7100 banding was with multi stop underexposure then pushed, who would have thought that would have caused problems
As for the A99 high ISO the A99 is just 1/4th of a stop better than the APS model.While being nearly a stop behind the FF models
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D610-versus-Nikon-D7100-versus-Sony-SLT-Alpha-99___915_865_831
And to be clear, I’m a glass half full guy myself, just trying to paint a realistic picture. I don’t fret over differences of about half a stop. It’s not going to make or break my pictures. Using the right tools, polishing my processing skills and shooting techniques has literally made several stops difference, humbling the above tech differences.
Sony isn’t losing money Nikon is.
Sony, and Olympus dominate the mirror less interchangeable lens market, and they have a close partnership. People are shifting away from both point and shoot and DSLR cameras, and moving to Smart phones or Olympus, and Sony type mirror-less cameras.
Sony sells more NEX-5 series cameras than Nikon sells D3200. Sony’s market is growing Nikon’s is shrinking.
Nikon has been unable to gain and foothold in the mirror less market, and this will likely continue.
Olympus is on the road to recovery since it dropped DSLR type cameras altogether. They are returning to profitability. Their new cameras are excellent, and the OM-D E-M1 is an exceptional.
Sony may not have a large SLT market, but that actually turn a profit from it. Plus the HALO effect from the NEX success is actually translating into A-Mount sales.
“”Sony isn’t losing money Nikon is.””
lol, Nikon have announced a reduction in profits not a loss the difference is important.
“”Sony, and Olympus dominate the mirror less interchangeable lens market, and they have a close partnership. People are shifting away from both point and shoot and DSLR cameras, and moving to Smart phones or Olympus, and Sony type mirror-less cameras.””
The mirrorless market worldwide fell back 17.8% compared to the DSLR market which fell back 14.8%. DSLR share of the interchangeable lens camera market worldwide is aprox 82% with mirrrorless { all mirrorless ] accounting for just 18%.
“Sony sells more NEX-5 series cameras than Nikon sells D3200. Sony’s market is growing Nikon’s is shrinking.”
Nikon will sell more low end DSLR than all of Nex put together.Sony’s share of the DSLR/SLT market has shrunk, and the mirrorless market has contracted
“””Nikon has been unable to gain and foothold in the mirror less market, and this will likely continue.”””
Nikon and Canon are playing at mirrorless , the continued dominance of DLSR sales makes this hardly surprising.
“Olympus is on the road to recovery since it dropped DSLR type cameras altogether. They are returning to profitability. Their new cameras are excellent, and the OM-D E-M1 is an exceptional.”
lol , Olympus doubled their losses last year with no DSLR for what 4 yrs? They are certainly not returning to profitability this year. I own the E-M1 it is a an excellent machine.
A rumour here said that the transluscent mirror would deflect 20% light to AF, have improved AF, better EVF and a new JPEG engine. As an A77 owner I’d be happy with the improved JPEG engine as a firmware upgrade.
I don’t expect another firmware upgrade. There were rumours around August/September stating the firmware was delayed.
Curious What’ll replace a77 as well. Though you can’t have too many cameras, what’ll I do with a700’s when a77 replacement comes out and it becomes back up. I find the a77 pretty darn good, hand held, in low level light. I would like to see firmware (v1.08) update for the a77, but fear that’ll not happen with new model introduction. A-mount lenses… need better selection from both Sony and Sigma. Sigma offers some fast long lenses, but only in Canon and Nikon mount… and no plan for Sony mount. Lets see some constant 2.8 zoom options.
If the translucent mirror has been improved significantly, as an A77 owner I’d pay a small amount for a package consisting of a jpeg firmware upgrade and an old for new mirror exchange,
Don’t hold your breath on this.
A) Reducing the mirror for one that diverts less light to the PDAF will degrade the AF performance. The new camera almost certainly has matching improvements to the PDAF detector and/or improvements to the AF algorithm.
B) The JPEG improvements are probably tied to the increased processing power of the new BIONZ. It may not be practical to run the new JPEG algorithm on the old BIONZ processor.
C)Sony marketing is not likely to sell an upgrade kit for a few hundred dollars rather than selling a new camera for a few thousand dollars.
+1
I’m still seeing the a65 as sold by Amazon. At least the body.
If they improve the mirror light transmission then hopefully it will fit the A77 too. Removing the SLT mirror takes seconds. 😀
+1
No only one model indictes a mount wind down. Maybe there will be 2 but Sony will sink with just one expensive crop body. All the sales are in bodies that are affordable. A58 is too cut down and weak to carry the torch. Good entry bodies are essential sadly A57 was stopped big error from Sony.
To say the mirror in the slt is a limitation? Just means you are not using your gear correctly and miss out on the benefit. Also on sensor phase detect will not be as fast as current slt using auto focus, with a mechanical shutter. I understand the want to shoot high iso without noise, but you don’t have to shoot high iso if you know want to do with today’s software.
Like single frame raw HDR. It’s like pushing film in the old days. The trouble is if your not old school then you don’t know what it is.
Lol what? So you push the RAW file instead of raising ISO… You do realize this is the exact same thing right? You’re just doing it on the computer instead of in camera, both methods have the same results, increased shadow noise.
Don’t think I’m going to buy the A77 replacement unless Sony decides to support those of us who already bought their camera’s with a jpeg up date for the A77.
I’d like to keep it as a backup. We just don’t get support from sony any more
I hope they don’t drop the GPS.
I see many retailers still selling the a65 but all are low in stock: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=sony+a65.
That said, given Sony’s huge bias in favor of supporting e-mount mirrorless bodies and clear disinterest in a-mount bodies it’s pretty clear we’re going to see greatly diminished support for replacing the SLT line. While Sony revved the lower-end a3x and a5x over the last couple of years they let the a65/a77 stagnate despite needing refreshes for better high ISO performance which would have been easy to do. The latest rumors show a 3:1 release preference for APS-C e-mounts over a-mounts. This comes on the heels of 2 new e-mount FFs plus a commitment to produce a flood of fe-mount lenses while the a99 is rumored out of production with no announced replacement.
If Sony only produces 1 APS-C a-mount body and maybe a FF a-mount well into the 2nd half of 2014 I hope they aren’t puzzled why the entire line dies and their losses in digital photography accelerate.
Sony has to market NEX because the margins are pretty thin compared to SLTs so they have to sell allot of them, and its working . Sony now the dominates the mirror-less segment which is the fastest growing interchangeable lens market with the NEX 3, and NEX 5.
They will provide these new cameras with maybe a years worth of hype/marketing, and then let them slide as well.
Actually two full frames, and two semi-pro’s are being launched this year (based on alpha rumours). The first two are being dropped on the 7th (based on a Sony C/S call).
They were delayed so Sony could cram more goodies (features) into them. The A-Mount is transitioning away from the consumer market to the Semi Pro / Pro market where it belongs. So they’ll hopefully strip all of the consumer features out of the cameras, and get rid of the stupid orange ring.
Let the E-Mount is will suck up all of the low end stuff.
Personally, I think going all-pro with a-mounts is a mistake. Sony’s success with pros isn’t overwhelming and they don’t have the system support to woo enough people from Canikon for it to work. There are many amateurs, like myself, who have already rejected the e-mount bodies for DSLRs.
To make expanding, say the a-mount lenses, profitable they need serious amateurs in the mix to boost volumes. Ironically, another rumor – with Sony doing a CES live event tomorrow evening they’re all pretty much pointless as is my speculation – had Sony claiming the refreshed a-mount body line-up was going to create a huge surge in lens sales. Really if all they pump out is high-priced pro/semi-pro bodies?
I get Sony fully supporting 2 systems, a-mount and e-mount, for all levels of photographers given the stagnation in the digital camera market is a lot to ask for. I get the compact mirrorless is growing more since it’s not as far along in the product life cycle as DSLRs are. However, with the dated a65 I own still being a top DSLR seller (at least in Japan) I think there’s room in the market for another manufacturer other than the Canikon DSLR duopoly. Sony leads so much in imaging technology it’s a natural to spread the development costs across more product lines.
Even if some of their system expansion was on the cheap by just refreshing proven Minolta designs with updated coatings and such it’s worth the attempt, IMHO.
I’ll keep hoping on an entry-level FF. If it doesn’t come out, I’ll just keep using my a65 until they come out with an e-mount that meets my needs. The a7R is a decent try. While I much prefer a DSLR’s handling, I’m sure I can eventually join the sheep and get used to the feel of it.
Semi-Pro dosen’t necessarily mean expensive. It means a camera that is orientated to the Semi-Pro market, and has all of the consumer type features stripped out.
Sony’s “losses” in digital photography stem entirely from the rapid decline of the point and shoot market. Once a powerhouse profit driver, improved cell phone cameras have devastated many different company camera divisions. To say that Sony mirrorless or dslt are drains on Sony is simply incorrect, it’s the cybershots.
+1
But maybe at least Sony sells many of the phone sensors…
I expect Sony’s Olympic release to happen soon. Every manufacturer doesn’t seem to want the hype of the A7(R) or DF for these releases. Sony thinks we won’t know about them until they are with the camera store.
I hope we get an R option like with the A7. My next camera will be one without the low pass filter.
While I certainly believe the A77/65 are due for a replacement soon, this report is premature. Amazon has double listings for the A65 with kit lens… The A65VL with kit lens is still very much in stock:
Sony Alpha SLT-A65VL DSLR 24.3MP SLR Camera with 3-Inch LCD Screen and 18-55mm Lens
by Sony
50 customer reviews | 6 answered questions
List Price: $799.99
Price: $598.00
You Save: $201.99 (25%)
Only 10 left in stock (more on the way).
I have a lot investment in A-mount lens.
I just hope that Sony has not made me lose my money and time in this format.
Simply this.
And do not come up with the bullshit that adapters can be used.
Thank you for sharing.
Is it good to buy an A77 now or wait until spring time? Hm….