The exploding Nikon D800 camera with 36 Megapixel Sony manufactured sensor.
For almost a year now I am sharing with you bits of rumors about the next A99 24 megapixel SLT Full Frame camera. Now Nikonrumors reports that also Nikon will use the same sensor (of course sold a “Nikon designed”) for the next D600 FF camera. I have some doubts the rumors is true also because it’s said that the Nikon D600 will cost $1500 only! Or wait, let’s hope this is true and that Sony has to sell the A99 for $1200 in order to compete against Nikon 🙂
Or, maybe Nikon will help Sony for free by creating another exploding Full Frame camera! Yes, the Nikon D800 explodes as it is reported here at CanonWatch 🙂 And also maybe because of that it’s no more on top of the Amazon ranking (Click here to see).
P.S.: Nikon claims the 24 Megapixel APS-C sensor used for the Nikon D3200 (here at Amazon) is different from the [shoplink 8461]Sony A77[/shoplink] sensor. But I don’t believe in coincidences 🙂
179 Responses
Every nikon camera has a sensor that has been designed, fabricated with every pixel individually hand wired by Nikon ! Believe it! 😉
hehe, yea 🙂 And Nikon only makes fanboys hotter by releasing texts like “designed by Nikon” in various publications. But well… no wonder. Otherwise Canon fanboys would have nice point against Nikon.
Nikon’s web site says the sensor in the D800 was “developed” by Nikon. An interesting choice of words.
The local drug store used to “develop” people’s Kodak and Fuji film.
Generally when you develop something it is already there.
Yep. They are just trying to pat a fire down. Make the Nikon fan boys happy. Does it really matter who makes the sensor as long as your camera produces good output?
i just cannot find it on their homepage.
but, as a nikonist, i am sure – nikon developed the sensor. (they said sony they want a 36mp sensor- so they developed it 😉 )
i often read “made by Sony, modified by Nikon” and so, maybe they use their own AA filter – so it is modified.
However, sonys sensors are very good, so nikon made the right decision.
Moreover i think that a99 will be higher level camera than d600 and therefore more expensive.
develop sensor and made sensor 2 different stuff 🙂
Both Nikon and Sony collaborate in the design of these sensors, with the AA, microleneses (and essentially all optics) being developed by Nikon, and the sensor itself and A/D’s designed by Sony.
The shared development benefits both companies, so I’m not sure we you’ve all taken Nikon and it’s users to task over this. Perhaps your frustration is better directed toward Sony for not having a new FF body on the market?
Just like Canon?
Chatter from other place:
So far it seems like D600 gonna be far cheaper than A99. Andrea was speaking about 2000-2600 USD while rumors about D600 report something around 1500 USD which would crush A99 and wipe a floor with it.
I think that right now whoever releases cheap, low-cost Full Frame is going to be a winner. Especially in a market where APS-C isn’t as deciding factor as it used to be – mirrorless cameras invaded this territory and right now some people feel like full frame is the only way to go for pro-shooters.
I hope it will be Sony to release first sub-2000$ full frame, but seeing rumors about 1500$ full frame from Nikon makes me think noone will buy into Sony while being aware of the rumored Nikon plans
There’s also other possibility: Nikon has nothing as close to being released as rumor suggests – it’s there simply to keep people from jumping into Sony camp when Nikon guys found out about A99 “main feature” – low pice.
Either way – with stuff floating about full frame Nikon for 1500$ Sony doesn’t stand much of a chance with A99. 🙁
I expect this Nikon D600, if it is true, will be closer to $2,000 than to $1,500.
Still, it will probably be hard for Sony to sell a lot of full frame cameras against a full frame camera with a Nikon label at that kind of price.
Nikon seem determined to take the #1 spot in DSLR sales
Sony already did sell the first sub $2000 FF camera with the a850 at $1999. 🙂
😀 Good point. Completely forgot about it.
Well, now we’ve got little bit different era (CCD->CMOS) so… point still kinda stands 😉
Hi Andrea,
nice to see that you realise that a price of 1500 for a FF is better for you and me than 2500 Euro. And for Sony too if they want to stay in this market against Nikon.
Let´s hope that Samsung will follow Nikons strategie in the N(E)X-Market.
Nikon should build a cam that can mount Nikon and alpha lenses, this would made it more easy to switch to Nikon as the new Nikon bodies are now cheaper than Sony’s. IF they pay for the CMOS, they could pay for alpha mount too !
Why bother, alpha will be dead in less than a year if Sony doesn’t decided to fight back to save the mount. And why should they, Sony is making more money selling to Nikon that fighting Nikon for market share.
I’ve heard the Alpha will be dead line since Sony took over from Minolta…I guess it never gets old…
we still ain’t anywhere close to Pentax – a company that’s a walking zombie for last… 25 years or so. lol
If it dies, where will get to see ISO 3200 pics of cats and bookshelves, bahaha
How about an adaptor? I would buy into that.
let’s hope it’s true..200 dollars more than the A77, probably iso perf than the A99…
I don’t understand Sony’s strategy (if Nikon really uses Sony’s sensors…I am a A77 owner and honestly I am quite disappointed with Sony’s strategy. I am a fan a Sony because I love my old Minolta lenses but in the end I think this would be wiser to switch to Nikon. Many of my photographer friends are switching from Canon to Nikon since the D800 is available and I understand. Nikon’s glasses are quite good, there’s a wide choice of lenses..would just be great if Nikon could produce some nice cameras with the same ergonomics as the A77 and better colours…let’s see i the rumour is true…
+1
Yes the old Minolta and now Sony color is much nicer than Canon and Nikon.
It’s kinda like that:
Colors: Sony > Canon/Nikon
Noise: Sony << Canon/Nikon
DR: Sony < Canon/Nikon
Choice of lenses: Sony <<<< Canon/Nikon
Quality of lenses Sony == Canon/Nikon
I don't really feel convinced that it's such a huge advantage to beat all the other matters 🙁 Especially the issue with lenses which becomes more and more clear and annoying in each year (just check lenses timeline yourself).
Canon does not beat Sony in Dynamic range. 16 and 24 mp sensors have better DR than Canon’s 18mp. They also have better DR than the 5d3. Both Sony’s aps-c sensors own the 7d’s sensor. Even with the translucent mirror in the way, they have roughly the same noise score on dxo.
exactly!
+1
-1
Yep, Canon is distant third when it comes to dynamic range. And that’s not going to change anytime soon.
*glares at DxO*
ok, looks like the situation isn’t as bad as I thought in a first place.
Sony beats them in horrible image quality and lack of pro gear, haha
Nikon has it’s act together and Sony is becoming just a electronics supplier for them.
I was at a social function after a showing (not photographic and not mine) and was asked by a young woman just starting at the Academy of Art University in San Francisco what camera company did I recommend she should “go with” ; Canon or Nikon……………
She didn’t mention Sony or anyone else, so I asked what about Sony? And she then told me that Sony only sold lower quality cheap cameras and that she needed a camera that a starting professional would use.
After talking to her, I understood that there was no way that I could recommend Sony as a system to someone just starting out and serious in photography as part of her art.
As of today, Nikon is who to buy and cleaning Sony’s and Canon’s clock as it puts on the market great cameras and optics and cheap prices.
“And she then told me that Sony only sold lower quality cheap cameras”
She’s clearly as ignorant as you are.
Oh wait, this meeting is fictional, you’re just trolling.
Hay Eater….. If I’m trolling I’ve been “trolling” on this site for two years now and I pratice my photography using alpha a850’s and Zeiss and old Minolta lenses I’ve been using since I moved from my old Nikon F2 to a Minolta 9000, so I guess I’m an old troll.
The story I related is true and I posted it only to point-out again what has been stated many times before that Sony has work to do. Right now I would think most everyone is in agreement with that.
So cut the caling people Ignorant as it’s not making you look like a good person.
sooooo..if you have been taking pictures with a850 and zeiss lenses that are clearly NOT CHEAP NOR LOWER QUALITY…why not recommend the same combo or explain her that Sony is an interesting alternative because of Zeiss and G optics? But well…with currently no FF model available maybe I would hold on any purchase until new models and buy used for a moment.
I told her how wonderful the new SLT’s are and explained the better video. I think she will look at the a77 if her teacher does not get to her first. The school pushes Canon and the 5D stuff and most of the students follow for very good reason.
I can actually relate to Steve’s story. It’s difficult to convince other people, who already formed their own opinion, to try out new thing. A couple of months back, I met a guy on a plane. He’s a Canon shooter using his 5D mark 2 with two other L lenses. And to him, Canon L is the best out there. I tried to talk him into trying out some Zeiss ZE to broaden his view but he didn’t even know about Zeiss and very skeptical about my opinion on the Zeiss IQ (especially after I revealed that I am a Sony shooter). In the end, we had a nice chat and I showed him some RAW pictures taken with my A900 and 5N; he liked the picture but his perception did not change.
Wait a second, she asked you for advice, then gave you one?
That may be true but what would happen if Sony pulled the plug on the sensor pipeline to Nikon? Not likely to happen but just think about it.
Nikon would simply go to another manufacturer as they have done numerous times (D3, D3s, D700, Nikon V1, J1).
Isn’t it funny that people like to point out that Nikon claims that the sensor is designed by them and then scoff at that, even though every Nikon camera that to date has used a Sony manufactured sensor has outperformed the Sony equivalent.
The question Sony users should ask is how about if Nikon decided to stop selling Sony the stepping machines that make the Sony sensor, what would Sony have to do then.
Open a Mac or any PC and the processor is made by somebody else… Folks it is the toppings on that sensor and the pipeline that create the final image!
This is bogus. I recommended the A900 for professional purposes when it was new and I certainly still recommend the A77 to the crowd whose personal finances put them closer to the Canon 7D but still need professional capability. The A900 offered class leading resolution, better build than a 5DMkII, faster fps than the 5DMkII, in body IS… the old arguments. As a photography tool, the A900 was a superior product. The A77 has more than enough going for it, enough that, on a Sony-centric site I don’t feel the need to wax on and on about it.
There are no better manufacturers, I cannot stress this enough. It’s quite clear the D800 and the 5DMkIII were both rushed to the market and, in my opinion, they were rushed out because Canon and Nikon view Sony as a valid threat. If Sony were to be “dead in the water,” as someone up there stated, then their marketshare wouldn’t continue to climb every year. If Nikon’s lenses were simply the best anyone has to offer, then more of their offerings would be ready for 36mp. If Canon was so amazing all of the time, they’d fix the DR issues and quit with the red cast all ready.
Selling all the brands every day you learn that there are no religions, Mr. Lennon. Only what actually works for your customer.
Not recommending Sony to budding pros is shortsighted. Stating absolutely that Sony can’t be shot professionally is simply false.
If they really hit $1500, then Canon and Sony are going to bleed.
Nikon sure have been aggressive this year. Looks like they’re seriously out to take Canon’s crown.
Well, they may be wrong on that, but when I started with Minolta (back in the MD mount days) they had a full camera system – lenses, accessories, and bodies – that were good quality, innovative AND cheaper than the others. That’s why a pro I know recommended them.
Now, Sony has fewer lenses, overpriced flashes and accessories, and doesn’t have a full line up of cameras. As of now, NO FF in their line, and only the 580 is left with an OVF. That’s hurting them, as SAR polls show at least 15% will leave Sony if they drop OFV. When you have a small market share, you can’t afford to piss off 15% of your base.
If Sony had kept Minolta’s thinking (not K-M’s) and put it’s muscle and money behind it, they would now be class leading, not niche.
I’ll be switching to Nikon when my current Sony equipment expires.
Dusty
Firstly, 15% of SAR readers isn’t 15% of the market – 1,5% would be more true.
Secondly, if Sony is to follow Minolta’s path, it could easily end up like Minolta (photo dept) did…
1,5% of the market? Hehehehe, I think Andrea would be happy if it would be even 0,1% but I seriously doubt that it’s such an enormous number.
15% of SAR readers may not be 15% of the market, but some of the big wedding photogs who switched to Sony for Zeiss glass had indicated they’ll defect if there are no more FF OFVs. As have others, and some photographers have already switched because Sony has no replacement (EVF or OFV) for the FF line.
Who do consumers get their idea of what to buy from? The pros they see with gear, of those they talk to who are “really into” photography (like SAR readers). Cut that down by 15% and you’ll cut down others buying into your line.
Minolta was a tech leader in SLRs for years, it’s after the merger w/ Konica that they went downhill.
What would those big names be? Seriously, real pro should know what they need and get it. There is no point to threaten anyone since Sony makes it clear that OVF is not their focus. I will get the D800E half a year from now (waiting for all the problems to be iron out). I will still keep my NEX-7 and definitely will get the NEX FF since full time liveview and EVF have their place. It is such a waste of time to whine.
Minolta’s pro gear was not cheaper than the Nikon/Topcon/Canon equivalents, and we seldom see the X-1, 135/2, 40-80/2.8, APO teles, bellows micros, etc available on the used market because of that. Neither were early pro A mount lenses like the 300/2.8 and 600/4, though the fact that Minolta had them in autofocus first meant they’re a bit more common.
partially true! us will bleed of most! 😀 lol…
if all those rumors are true, the A99 will be crushed by Nikon D600, for sure. but if Sony sticks to the rumored D600 price, it will be fantastic. wait and see…
The hand writing has been on the wall for years….
Sony’s strange reluctance to invest in the manufacturing of lenses was the beginning of the story.
I decided months ago that I’m not going to replace my a850 with anything Sony or A-mount till I start seeing Sony investing in the production of full frame lenses.
Sony is an electronics company, they think they can gain market share with innovative electronics features. Nikon is an optical company, they know that serious cameras are all about lenses.
Ouestion:
If its rumored that Sony will sell the a99 for about $1,200.00 USD is Sony about to lower prices on cameras below it like the a77?
Nikon’s pricing is forcing everyone to lower prices and lower them a lot!
I don’t see anyone releasing full frame for 1200 USD in next 3-4 years. Don’t go too far with dreams. ;]
The only “official” rumors are that the A9X will be cheaper than the D800, speculation is in the $2000 to $2600 range. It will really depend on the features, a weather resistant body, 14 fps, big buffer camera is not going for $2000 and would probably be close to $3000. A 10 fps, low buffer, non-weather resistant, low feature camera may be in the $2000 price range. If Nikon really releases a FF body for under $2000 you can be sure it will lack a lot of features. They are selling D800s like pancakes why release a low-price FF model now. I am sure either it will be very crippled or it will be released after the D800 buying slacks off some.
Even if it’d be D3200 with Full Frame – I’m sure it will be best sold full frame ever and Nikon will earn far more money back in lenses than lower profits on each body made them loose.
Bill,
Thanks for answering about the price rumor.
In any case, this may force Sony to stay around $2K, which is good news for me as that is about the limit I can go.
Screw Nikon, come on Sony, you gotta have at least one Ace up your sleeve to compete with the big two, giving away your new 24Mp sensor will have you bite the dust. Look at D800!!!
I think it’s a big decision point for Sony top management. If D600 for 1500 is true (I think Nikon really can make a 1500 FF camera), they know that A99 wouldn’t sell. And they know, canceling A99 means actually cancelling FF line. With all the pain.
To be or not to be…
They won’t cancel it, it’ll just end up in a repeat scenario from when the 5D2 put the kibosh on the A900’s sales.
D3x Vs A900, same sensor but Nikon camera is better!
Better colour separation? Faster read out? No and no.
and the Nikon is $8000, or did you miss that detail?
It is. The D3X has better color separation.
Dream on. There was even an extensive topic about this on the Nikon D3/D3X/D800 Dpreview forum with examples where the consensus was that the A900 had the best colour separation. Which is confirmed by DXO (full CSS, not available in their comparison tool, see full reviews) measurements where it remains unbeaten, even after the latest releases.
It’s one area where Sony consistently scores better than the others, thanks to their CFA’s.
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Database/Sony/Alpha-900#tabs-2
I guess if you are going to quote DXO, we should also take a look at the rankings…
D3X Ranked 4th smokes the A99 ranked 19th, with a score of 88 for the D3x vs. 79 for the Alpo, I mean Alpha.
Once again a Nikon designed sensor outperforms the Sony equivalent, even if Sony manufactured the sensor for Nikon.
Diochino, even my BMW is better than your Toyota, but it costs 3 times more.
And the D600 will be a OVF DSLR. With a Nikon designed, Sony fabbed sensor if rumors are right.
And by the way, there have been no explosions of D800s. Only shows the Admin’s bias for Sony for him to say that.
One has to salute Nikon for making all the right moves at the expense of Canon and Sony. Nikon has taken the best Sony sensors and introduce these in all its entry-level cameras at very competitive prices.
D800: “Entry-level” 36mp full-frame camera (compared to the $8,000 24mp D3x, the $3,000 36mp D800 is entry-level).
D3200: $700 Entry-level 24mp APS-C camera with 18-55mm kit lens.
D600: $1,500 Entry-level 24mp full-frame camera
There is no way that Sony can compete against Nikon’s and Canon’s array of lenses for its SLTs. With Nikon low price range, there is very little reason to choose or stay with Sony other than with the E-mount NEX.
Net result: Canon dSLRs dead in the water and Sony SLTs sinking by the stern.
No – it is you that is showing your anti-sony bias with that comment. Admin was doing nothing more than quoting a particular expression used in two other posts – neither of them on a sony board, and one of them in fact on a nikon forum.
Yes, isn’t it interesting that Canon rumors and Nikon rumors don’t talk about the competition with such disdain.
I guess the lack of market share in DSLR’s has them a bit rankled.
Even Canon is rumoured to release a “entry level” FF for Sept.
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/03/mirrorless-camera-new-full-frame-coming-second-half-2012-cr2/
2012 will be battle for “entry level” FF?
Sony, I don’t ask for much but just give us the A99 now. You can’t hid behind Tsunami or floods as an excuse anymore.
When you factor in the significantly higher cost to make a FF sensor compared to an APS-C sensor (much higher yield for APS-C sensors, more sensors per wafer, etc.), if any company comes out with a FF camera priced at or near $1500 (or Euros) it will necessarily need to be a stripped down body. That is not to say that a company may not decide to come out with such a camera, i.e., an “entry level” FF camera, and Nikon is the more likely company to do so as it also has the D800 and D4 “higher end” FF cameras (or Canon with the 5D Mk III and 1DX). Sony, with a far smaller consumer base and far smaller expected sales of a FF camera compared to Nikon (or Canon), is in a more difficult place: who should it try to go after with a FF camera? Going only after the lower end, with a stripped down model would not, in my view, make any sense, as it would likely drive the fewer higher end shooters that it does have into the arms of Nikon (or Canon). Rather, it needs to at a minimum follow the path it did with the A900, which was operationally and in terms of features basically a high end APS-C cameras (nearly identical to the A700) with a FF sensor, or it needs to aim a bit higher – provide an operationally more sophisticated camera than the A77.
In the Nikon camp, it seems that the big question is whether the D300/D300S replacement camera will be an APS-C or FF camera. If the former, it would likely have higher-end features similar to the D800 (e.g. AF system, metering, etc.) but in a somewhat smaller body using the smaller sensor (presumably Sony’s 24 MP). If it is a FF camera it is assumed it would be a less well specified, lower resolution camera compared to the D800. An “entry level” FF camera using a new/upgraded Sony 24 MP sensor (if there is one) could be such a camera. If that is the path Nikon is following, I would suspect that Sony’s 24 MP FF camera (if there is one) would be placed between the two Nikon bodies (e.g., between entry-level and the D800). Of course, it’s all speculation and only Sony knows for sure, but many of the guesses posted in these comments seem predicated on dreams rather than real-world practicalities and economics.
If it’s true and these specs pan out it is certainly a dummied down D600. No in body AF motor would kill it for a lot of folks.
• The price of the D600 is rumored to be very low – maybe as low as $1500.
• The sensor inside the D600 will probably be 24MP (made by Sony, modified by Nikon).
• The D600 will probably not have an internal AF motor, which means it will work only with AF-S lenses (just like the D3200 and D5100).
• The D600 will have HD video.
• Announcement before Photokina (September 2012).
• One or more low-priced f/4 lenses will be announced with the D600. For example, Nikon recently filed a patent for a 24-70mm f/3.5-4.5 full frame lens which seems to be designed for a cheaper FX DSLR body.
I am starting to regret that I own so many A-mount lenses…
I possibly will start if these things actually hit the market (eg. Sony releasing low-cost, but still over 2000$ SLT A99 with no mirror-flip mode, while Nikon releases D600 knocking-down Alpha in both: image quality and price).
But so far these are just rumors ;]
Ya, I figure it will cost me 8k USD to replace just what I need to replace
16-35,24-70,70-200, 85, 50, 100 macro
And gee……..maybe I can get one of the Zeiss marco lenses I always wanted.
And the worst thing is, they arent worth much either.
Nobody wants them. Second hand camera stores wont take them. Most only deal in Canon or Nikon.
It took me three months to sell my 35/1.4. The best price I could get from any second hand camera dealer in the UK was £500 (its a £1300 lens). They all just said that it would take them ages to sell it, hence the low price. Some stores just said no outright.
Even my zeiss stuff wasn’t really in demand.
And my sigma 85/1.4 went for £450 on ebay but a canon or nikon mount version goes for £550.
Well any business is good business for sony 🙂
The hyperprime 0.95 50mm = to me the pictures look like it came from a full frame when used on the nex7, like the 5d mkII..now if sony made a hyper prime 50mm .095 oss .. like dslr magic..(foam at mouth)
I doubt you have the money to buy it.
Why is it that every time a Nikon sensor is mentioned, the “made-by-Sony” thing is emphasized? Is this just to reassure you that you made the right choice in picking Sony as a brand? How is it then that a Sony-made sensor is so much better inside a Nikon camera? IMO Sony should just stick with consumer-level/entry-level cameras.
Admin; you must be crazy!
Is Sony such a bad camera that the only hope is that competitors explode? It happened to extremely few cameras, and is no fun for owners.
And – BEWARE – when Sony finally comes out with something, they may have their share of early production problems! Your campaign will be turned against you Admin.
(Everybody that knows about industrial production also knows the difficult transition from manufacture of prototypes – to pre-production series and finally full production. It is about assembly, but also deliveries from suppliers.)
Kylberg, go back to your troll cave in Fuji land. This site obviously caters toward Sony shooters and Admin, as a human being, does show certain bias. What really tick me off is how you always try to be the superior one. Most people here who are interested in the D800 would do the investigation themselves to find out how many cameras got the problem. I know I would get the D800E and I know there are always problems at the beginning so I will wait. We don’t really need any other brand fanboy to be here to preach how we should conduct ourselves. Thank you.
The Nikon sounds really great, 24 MP full frame for 1500$ … wonderfull, its even the “tweaked by Nikon” Sony sensor, so hopefully it is released very soon. Then I dont need to wait years for the release of Sony cams and then still another year, until the released cam is available for much higher prices than expected (because there is only a small amount of it in shops)
Since Sony got into this race in 2006 they seem to be 1-2 steps behind Canikon in terms of innovation, marketing, pricing, sales, vision, etc… They do not seem to have the ability to catch up or anticipate their rivals next more and head it off before their rival can take advantage.
When RAW support for the D3200 is available and we can compare the high iso performance of it against the A77, we will try an educated guess as to what Sony´s future A99 will compare to the rumored D600. I really hope, they will be able to compete as I like their cameras and I use them parallel to my Nikon system. It will be very hard …
There are already RAW samples posted on the internet somewhere and preliminary indication is that they match the A77 and low ISO and exceed it beyond 1600.
A link would be nice. The jpegs seem to hint at much higher read noise at base ISO (equals less DR, not Exmor).
Apparently you are too lazy to use Google…
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikond3200/4
RAW and jpg. Do the head to head with the A77.
Don’t be a smartass, when you made your previous claim and when I made mine, Dpreview hadn’t posted their studio shots yet.
And they certainly don’t show better performance at low ISO. Higher read noise, hinting again at a different sensor. Also lacking a but in sharpness and colours. A tad better at the highest ISO’s minus the dandruff like white spots that Exmor sensors haven’t seen since the first generation (A700, A500 etc.).
Can you tell me what genuine innovations Canikon have bought to the table since 2006? I’m struggling to think of any.
Lotus Eater, You are confusing “innovation” from Sony Semiconductor with lack luster products from Sony Digital Imaging. Sony Semiconductor is innovative and is churning out new high quality digital camera sensors used by several camera makers such as Sony Imaging, Nikon, Pentax & others.
However, the company division that makes our cameras, Sony Digital Imaging is bringing out DSLRS/DSLTs that fail to compete in the market when compared to the offerings from the industry players such as Canon, Nikon and even Panasonic.
The only place where Sony is selling a good number of cameras is in the NEX range and in the shrinking P&S market.
And finally when it comes to camera innovation, I don’t care who makes the sensor as long as it is competitive, especially for low light photography. What I care about the most is that the camera has good build, ergonomics, accurate autofocus and metering functionality and finally high quality and diverse range of lenses and accessories.
In the last three areas, Sony is really behind the industry. You cannot compare the innovation of Sony’s autofocus and metering system with that developed by Canon and especially Nikon.Neither can you compare range of Sony lenses and accessories with that of either Canon or Nikon.
Pretty much wrt to lenses, Sony has a limit set of rewarmed twenty-five year old lenses designed by Minolta and very few high quality AF lenses co-designed by Zeiss. The rest of the Sony lenses are warmed over mediocre lenses designed and built by Tamron or some other OEM lens manufacturer.
Photonut, it is you who is confusing sales with innovation. You didn’t even manage to touch Lotus Eater’s argument.
Lol, I would like to ask – what is inovation? I think any vendor can create a product which will be inovative, but sometimes it will fail just because of that. There might be several reasons why it will be so – price of new technology is usually high and the market might not be able to accept that. New technology in the first few generations will have its own issues and if brought to market too early, people will create a bad impression of it and will keep the impresion even if a future generation of the product will improove on those issues.
So even a company with an inovative product can fail if it bets their future on it too early. Nikon is prooving that the old style DSLR is still the way to go as the volume production can lower cost enough to win in the eyes of the consumer.
To me inovation thus means that the new tech has to come at the right time and the right price. Nikon seems to be actually doing this quite a lot in their cameras. There are e.g. no huge differences in the AF system (sure – you get less af points in lower end cameras) which is good even in the entry level cameras and gets very good by the D7000. If Nikon will bring the D600 at that price, it will be a great inovation as it will bring the tech of a FF to the masses. And that is inovation – not only developing a great tech and having one prototype or an insanely priced product. Inovation is bringing the tech to the masses.
Photonut fail.
SLT is innovation. First hybrid phase-contrast detection AF system in reflex camera is an innovation. First phase-detection AF system in video is an innovation. 10 FPS in entry level camera is an innovation. Should I keep going?
Cameras have used pellicle mirrors since the 60s, though.
They were used quite differently though. No matter how you look at it, it is an innovation – new materials, new purpose.
SLT mirror isn’t a pellice mirror. You ever seen a Canon Pellix? I did. It’s nothing close to mirror in SLT. Nor the whole concept is.
The fact that both cameras use beamsplitters in place of solid mirrors doesn’t automatically make them the same kind of thing. They have completely different concepts.
Does an EOS-1n RS count?
Nikon: Video DSLR, first TC with aspherical optics
Canon: Fisheye zoom
nothing else really comes into my mind, but I cannot say that they didn’t brought anything at all
Tokina was first with a fisheye zoom, 2006ish.
I think that would actually be Pentax with the 17-28mm (1995, if I am not mistaken).
And the Tokina, from the little I know, is a rebranded Pentax.
How about low light performance and fast efficient in-camera image processing for one? Nikon’s in-camera image processing is beating the pants off anything Sony has produced. How about top end auto-focus performance and tracking? Have you seen the reviews on the 5DIII? Sony has nothing that comes close to that at any price point. How about dynamic range performance that is close to 15 EVA in the D800? How about 36mp?
I disagree on a couple of points…Sony is definitely ahead in the areas of innovation and vision, but they fall short when it comes to marketing, sales and maybe pricing.
What is Sony doing that is so innovative? Pellicle mirror? That was done in the 60’s by Nikon so Sony just basically re-branded the idea and tried to make it theirs in 2011. It’s not innovative though…What else is Sony doing? The Nex line is nice and it got Sony some much needed sales and you could argue opened a door for a whole new market of camera buyers. The Alpha line, not so much. What is the purpose of the A57, A37? They seem like complete throw-away introductions. As if Sony is saying “we cannot compete with the top two but we will offer something low end to show we still have interest in this A-Mount…”
I agree, but I would put the stress on “pricing” and “consistency”.
The second one I have to explain: Sony produces marvelous and innovative cameras, with three different lens systems (apsc alpha, ff alpha, and apsc E). None of this system gives the impression of being “complete”, nor even “enough” for many needs. There are some very nice lenses (esp. Zeiss) but in general there is no single spectacular and peculiar lens that would make you choose the alpha system. This is even more true about the nex system: best mirrorless cameras around, worst lens system. Smallest cameras around, biggest lenses around.
Fact is that (e.g.) Nikon can keep on not innovating much (as far as the camera body is concerned) because they can count on a solid lens system, accessories, support, and brand name (which is fully deserved). Hence even if Nikon and Sony produced the same camera at the same price, Nikon would win. But, somehow, Sony is pricing its products, cameras and lenses, quite high. I really wonder why…
Let’s just limit those to marketing and sales, shall we? What did they innovate so much compared to Sony or Olympus, for example? What vision? Making the same cameras all over again? Incremental upgrades surely have their place, but vision? And the pricing, are you kidding?
In camera image processing of high ISO is an innovation whether you value it your photography or not it is highly innovative and leading edge stuff. Look at what they are doing with ISO 6400. Completely unheard of performance and Sony offers nothing even close in ANY of their current offerings. Autofocus tracking at the level that the 5DII is doing is innovation. A 36mp sensor that is competing with MF cameras costing 25-30k is extremely innovation. Pricing a 3200 camera at $700 USD that according to every initial test report I have see, capable of matching and exceeding IQ of a certain camera by Sony selling for $1400 USD. That’s pricing innovation and great marketing whether you see it that way or not.
Now they may come out with an FF camera at a price point where the best APS-C that Sony has to offer sits? Innovative, smart and great marketing.
Your subjective interpretation of what is innovative is amusing, to say the least.
You well thought out response is amusing and informative and so short…
Absurdism is hard to take serious. So yeah, not wasting my time on that one. 😉
Are you serious?
High ISO? Just check what the NEX-5N can do, already half a year old and even cheaper than the 3200. It’s as good as D7000, which costs way more. Remember for how much cameras like the A850/900/33/55/580 were selling? Do you see for how much you can get a NEX camera?
I know they did innovate. I don’t see what they did more than the others.
“Now they may come out with an FF camera at a price point where the best APS-C that Sony has to offer sits?”
First, that’s a rumor. Second, that can be said for any camera company. The 7D is more expensive than the A77, the D7000 is only 200US less expensive and the K-5 300US less. No to mention that the A77 is the newest of them all, so normal to be slightly more expensive. So where does your argument stand now?
Btw, there is no such thing as “innovative pricing”.
No one that is really serious about photography or has the amount of $$$ tied up in Alpha mounts lenses or accessories gives a rats @$$ about Nex. I am talking about DSLR and DSLT cameras and how Sony is not competing with Nikon and Canon. Great Sony came out with a tiny yet decent performing SLT camera (Nex 5, 5N and 7) that looks more like a P&S. That’s really nice. It takes a bunch of lens mounts. Again nice. If you have a collection of A Mount lenses you need to get a $300 “adapter” to use your lenses in pseudo auto focus mode. I am not in the market for a Nex, nor will I ever be. What have they done in the DSLR/DSLT camera line? Zero compared to Nikon and Canon.. They are taking 5 years to replace camera lines instead of 18-24 months like the other two. And after years of waiting for something, we get a camera that gets a C grade on DxOMark. They seem to have no clue what to put in their cameras from a functional perspective nor have insight on what it takes to go head to head with the other two – to beat the other two down. They have almost zero pro level support. Go read Gary Freidman’s post on DP to see how they handle/resolve break fix issues for pro’s.
Umberto, sorry to disagree: Nex 7 with adapter and alpha lenses has a great autofocus. Sure the adapter and big lenses make for a big camera to drag around, spoiling the mirrorless advantage over dslr or dslt. But this is another matter: nex7 plus Sony 16-50 2.8 via adapter is, per se, a wonderful IQ and speed combo…
Umberto, sorry, but your argument gets ridiculous. It doesn’t work to count (or not) the NEX just when it suits you. A 5N, for example, is priced the same as a Rebel and it has pretty much the same features and they compete with each other. Of course, I will count it in their sales and in the pricing category you mentioned.
Saying that Sony has innovated nothing compared to Canikon is also complete nonsense. SkyWalker posted a few examples and I can add more, but given that you don’t seem to care…
What’s a C grade? I’d guess you mean the A77, but then I see nothing wrong with it.
Functional perspective? What do the A77/65/55/5N/7 etc., are so bad at?
In conclusion, you haven’t constructed a single argument except that they don’t sell very well and don’t have a pro support, which I actually agree on.
So, again, marketing and sales, like I said above, I agree. But innovation, vision, pricing, no way. And you haven’t proven me otherwise.
$1500 for a FF? No way … as pointed out, then the prices of all cameras should be lowered by a lot. I don’t think any manufacturer need to go that far. Whoever release another lower model in the $2000 range will be the winner already, doesn’t need to go down to $1500.
If this rumor turns out to be true then it looks like the much smaller Nikon is really taking SONY to the woodshed using SONY’s own sensor technology.
They have cornered SONY in on the low end with the 24mpx Nikon D3200 which makes it a no-brainer for any newbie focused on the misleading Mpx count and have completely demolished Sony in the high end with the 36mpx Nikon D800/D800E.
With this 24mpx affordable FF camera they would completely eviscerate anything that SONY comes out with either in the high end APS-C market (A77 or successor) or in the FF market such as with the rumored A99.
It seems pretty clear from the available information and pictures that the D3200 sensor is not a Sony. The Sony Exmor’s have a very specific fabrification and pin layout; the D3200’s is quite different in virtually every physical respect. Thus, the best possible case would be that Nikon licensed sensel/ADC designs from Sony and then completely relaid out the power/data lines and had the chip made by someone else. But that seems unlikely, given Nikon’s direct access to Aptina, Renasys, and others.
Moreover, initial test data shows that the sensor doesn’t perform like an Exmor.
So we’re left with the conclusion that this is yet another of Nikon’s one-off designs, probably in collaboration with a fab partner, just like the D3100’s was.
If the US$1500 price for an entry FX body is correct, that, too, would tend to indicate non Sony sensor use. Running even a high volume FX sensor on a heavily used fab is costly for a vendor like Sony, who is running lots of very high volume smaller sensors and wants to prioritize to that (more profit). It’s more likely that Nikon found a fab partner with significant unused capacity who’s willing to take low returns (rather than no returns). Again, that’s if the US$1500 price is correct, as that would imply an under US$100 FX sensor cost, something we haven’t seen to date and I doubt Sony would be overly willing to provide.
Agreed.
It’s entirely possible you’re right, but Aptina and Renesas don’t have a lot of history in making high megapixel APS sensors, so it would be rather out of character. I guess a scaling-up of the Nikon 1’s Aptina sensor’s architecture is conceivable, but I’m surprised at the price point they’ve targeted if so, given the rather high price of the 1 relative to the rest of its internals (though they may have just priced it like that as a means of protecting DSLR sales).
I would gladly pay $3000 for the A99 if it works well so I dont have to jump ship and sell all my lenes. I need sony to produce a solid work horse for working professionals NOT prosumers! I’m not waiting all this time to get a $1500 prosumer camera from sony and at that price thats exactly what it will be!
nikon d800 d4 even has eyeball tracking pinpoint autofocus. seems like everything nikon will be better, except for video.
Personally, I’m hoping for a $2K fullframe camera, with good video support (i.e. clean HDMI uncompressed output, 1080p60p,balanced audio-in)
Hmmm crappy low-end FF (and for 1500$ it can be only crappy) or high-end APS-C like A77?.. I think I’ll take last one and have more freedom in lenses, more funktionality and mobility… and spare over 300$. Bigger means not always better guys 😉
Well, this would be consistent with the strategy that Sony appears to be adopting: make the best sensors and sell them, retreat from the SLR market, make NEX cameras. I know, lots of years of comments that Sony will leave the SLR market, but the evidence is mounting. And the strategy makes some sense. Why do we need Nikon AND Sony in the market if they use the same sensors? Yes, the cameras are a little different, but hey, they are both DSLRs – more similar than different. And Nikon CRUSHES Sony when it comes to system and professional support. Sony had some foothold when they were significantly cheaper – that will not be true going forward. I was a longtime Canon shooter, shot A900 for 16 months, just sold all of the gear and am back to my Canon equipment (which, happily, I had kept). I did this because D800 (and D600) and NEX make the future pretty clear to me – if there will be Sony DSLRs (or SLT, whatever) in the future, they will be second to Nikon and NEX, and that’s not encouraging. Just want to add that I am no Sony hater – am shooting more and more professional work with my NEX 7, and love it – and loved the A900 as well.
‘always 2nd to Nikon’. I loled. Buying camera equipments is a competition now?
And one another point I ask myself all the time: you are talking permanently about FF-costs, FF-marketing, losing of positions in PRO-market, stupid Sony losing big moneys an so on…
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it the sector of APS-C and mirrorless and so on which is the most profit-making in camera producing? I always thought the PRO-sector with FF and MF makes actually just a little % of profit, and it works more for company-image. So, the D3200-move of Nikon may probably work good on the main market, but I don’t think that the great part of Pros will be satisfied with the same formula: “go cheaper = get better” used on a FF cam. Not really good image in my eyes^^
Me personally would like to pay couple of hunderts more to get the best quality, and not just a low-budget plastic toy with “oh god that crazy big FF sensor!” So, I think, Sony should not worry much too much about the costs and better about the company-image and how to perfect the A99 and make it to a killer-beast 😀
Since Sony apparently also has a “better” full frame coming out eventually, they will be forced to compete with Nikon on the pricing for this one. Can you imagine if Nikon beats their pricing on a Full Frame? Sony may as well stop making full-frame cameras then – nobody will buy them. (Even I will consider selling all my minolta/sony lenses).
We are supposedly nearing 3 months from announcement date for the 99. We should begin hearing more solid reports on the performance and parameters of the 99. Keep your ear to the ground Andrea.
3 months? I thought Andrea said 5 months.
And if it goes like the A77 it will take at least 9 months before the first one is actually there. They will tell us that they want to make the perfect camera. Or something like that. With the A77 the flood was blamed but I am not so sure the firmware was made in the Thai factory. So apart from the flood it is clear they simply were not ready. So it all looked like “Make believe” to me. But hey: I hope I will be wrong about the A99 and it will be there in August but (alas)for now my money would be on the D600 arriving first.
Mmm, end of the line. Sorry about all my lenses that will be almost unsellable. Unless A99 will be cheaper than D600 I will switch to Nikon bcs its finally clear that there is no future in Alpha..
Pity, I really loved Sony and still love the colours.
What I see is Sony has become a competitor that both Nikon and Canon cannot afford to ignore. Over the last few years, both have been losing market share to Sony. Japan could be the very first market that Sony may surpass Nikon soon. I would like that:-) If this rumor is true, Nikon has to cut so many things from camera…from FF camera. But at what cost? Are they willing to lower their brand image? Starting pricing war may not be necessarily good for Nikon.
“Japan could be the very first market that Sony may surpass Nikon soon.”
Really??
http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/12/kaz-hirai-reveals-one-sony-turnaround-strategy-will-cut-10-00/
and Canon is has a positive forecast.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-25/canon-raises-full-year-profit-forecast-16-to-290-billion-yen.html
DSLRs sell less and less well in Japan while mirrorless is booming. Sony will surpass them, no problem.
http://www.cameradebate.com/2012/mirrorless-market-share-2011-2012/
I live in Japan, and I can tell you that mirrorless are not substituting DSLR, but high-end compact cameras. And as far as mirrorless are concerned, the Nikon 1 system is doing very well here, challenging m43 and Sony
Vlad has no clue. Just making crap up to support some Sony fanboy image.
So what if you are living in Japan? You researched the whole market?
I provided the link. DSLR sales are steadily declining and what do you think they are replaced with? And yes, they also eat in the high-end compacts too.
Vlad provided sales statistics, you are giving us what, your own impression?
Sorry Spoon (and sorry Vlad) but I fail to see why that statistics imply that DSLR sell less than, say 10 year ago. Those statistics, based on items “shipped” to sellers (so: not produced, not sold, but “moving from distributors to sellers”, which is something that can happen more than once to the same item; and this flaw in that table has already been discussed by Thom Hogan on his site) shows that mirrorless camera are gaining popularity and will surpass DSLR in sales. This way the interchangeable lens market will be largely a mirrorless market. Good, this is the way it will be.
My point: this is not happening at the expense of DSLR, not yet.
It is happening at the expense of high-end compact cameras. DSLR market is still the same as it was 10 years ago. What has changed is that now we are talking about and interchangeable lens market that is getting bigger and bigger, as it now includes new cathegories of cameras. Fact is that 10 years ago those two concepts (dslr and interchangeable) were mostly the same (Leica and MF apart). Now they are not. What counts here is the absolute number of DSLR being sold, and that is very stable (see an article about this trend published by the Reuter: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-cameras-idUKBRE83O07D20120425).
About my being in Japan: well, if you live in a place quoted in (not-well-read) statistics, you can easily compare what happens in real life with those (not-well-understood) statistics. E.g.: many normal students have a mirrorless camera (e.g. a m43, mostly). Many “arts” or “architecture” students have a reflex. It is not that different from how it was 10 years ago. Just substitute “mirrorless” with “compact”. Of course, everybody has a photo-cellphone. I also happened to talk to some dealers here (mainly people working in Yodobashi Camera or Bic Camera). I guess their opinion on the matter counts as well.
The general impression is that so far mirrorless cameras did not steal market from dslr (as confirmed by numbers) but from compacts. But as soon as the cameras will get better, and the lens systems more complete, that will be unavoidable. But this is a possible future. Not the past, nor the present…
Ok, one more time then.
Yes, statistics aren’t perfect, but they are much better than one person’s opinion. I think that is obvious. I am sorry, but saying “you can easily compare what happens in real life with those (not-well-understood) statistics.” doesn’t make any sense. Why would we make statistics then, if each of us has such a great understanding of the market? No way you can convince me that you have a better idea of what is going in the Japanese market than BCN, no offense meant.
Here’s a nice short article on the topic of observational statistics by Hogan:
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-fallacy-of-observationa.html
Here’s another article by him, explaining that the trend is for mirrorless to eat more and more in DSLR sales:
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/whats-with-all-the-mirrorle.html
And even another one:
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/january-2012/japanese-market-results.html
I do understand what you mean by the shipments metric not being very precise, but it is what we have and it is certainly better that nothing. Btw, I think these numbers are sales, but I might be wrong. Whatever the case, the trend is so strong that I don’t have any doubts. Panasonic, for example, also think the same, they expect that mirrorless will overtake DSLRs by 2015, globally (here, specifically I wouldn’t be so sure, Japan isn’t very representative).
Abou the article you posted, I read it, but I don’t see your point. If we are talking about DSLR sales being stable, of course they are, currently nobody makes the distinction between mirrorless and DSLRs when making statistics (except Japan), so these DSLR numbers include mirrorless.
Btw, shipped cameras are definitely produced.
Hi Vlad, I see your point.
Still I was trying to say that that table with market statistics is to be interpreted, as it always happens with statistics. If you affirm that the mirrorless market is growing, this is right, both in absolute numbers and statistics. If you imply that DSLR market is reducing its importance in percentage vs the mirrorless market, yes, this is what that table affirms, and I think it is fully correct (and very visible here in Japan). If you imply also that the DSLRs are selling less, I can say that this is not what that table is saying. I mean: if you isolate the DSLR market from the mirrorless market, and make a separate table, the line representing changes in sale volumes will be quite flat, I think (though at the moment I cannot back-up the statement with numbers; during next days I will look for some data).
About cameras produced / shipped: the fact is that the same camera can be shipped more than once. Here in Japan there is a very strong subsidiary market of tech stuff that was unsold in big stores (à la Yodobashi), then sent back to the distributor, and then from the distributor back to smaller stores. The entire electrical city of Akihabara is composed with small stores selling this kind of once unsold products at lower prices. This happens e.g. with old Olympus cameras (e.g. Epl1, or Epl2, etc.), that are not being sold anymore by Yodobashi, but flooded many of the smaller stores. So the same Epl1s that once were in bigger stores, have been “reshipped” to smaller stores. Well, I have no idea of how this second shipment was counted (or not counted) in those statistics…
True that personal observation is questionable, but it means something, nevertheless. What I can see is that many many people I know here who own a mirrorless have never owned a DLSR, nor they would know how to use it. They bought the mirrorless instead of a compact because, they heard, it has better IQ without the hassle of a reflex. At the same time almost all DSLR users here also own a mirrorless.
This is why I do not see the mirrorless as substituting the DSLR, but instead taking the place of compacts. Sure I cannot back-up this observation and various conversations I had with photographers here, but I think it means something nevertheless.
Anyhow, we’ll see what will happen in few months, with new cameras (like the Oly OMD5) aiming directly at the DSLR market (and having enough lenses to give the impression to be able to do actually substitute a reflex).
Hi, lorenzino.
I was in Japan in 2010, for a year, and based on what I was seeing, it was exactly the same as you describe it. But then, the only mirrorless were m43 and the NEX just appeared in their half-baked state. I would also agree that mirrorless eat way more in the compacts market than DSLRs. But with the arrival of more refined products like the NEX-5N and more higher-end ones, like the NEX-7, OM-D, upcoming Panasonic, heck even Fuji, it would just get worse for the DSLRs and that is what the numbers confirm for me. Obviously, nothing is certain, but we’ll know in a year or two.
I might be coming to Japan this summer, so we can continue arguing… but with some teriyaki and umeshu 🙂
Interesting “debate” proposal: I love both teriyaki and umeshu (if we can avoid the teriyaki made with chicken cartilage, that I hate).
Last days I have been trying the omd5, and it is the first time I “feel” there is a potential dslr substitute. Nex system is not there, yet, as the lenses are a serious handicap. I was almost on the point of buying a Nex 7 two months ago, but then I realised that, at the moment, that great camera can be only a nice complement to a more mature system, not a substitute. So I chose an interim camera, an epl3, waiting to see what will happen in next months (in particular: will Sony announce new lenses?)
Side question: why the heck does Sony sell cameras with Japanese menu only, charging the international version a lot more? Are we foreigners who live in Japan supposed to necessarily buy from other brands? Go figure…
It’s their way of telling you to improve your Japanese. 頑張ろうな.
Agreed on the cartilage and the NEX. Borrowed a 5N from a friend several times and the sensor inside this thing is really amazing. But then I look at m43 lenses like the 7-14, the 12 and the 45 and I start hesitating again.
I would really like to get my hands on a an E-M5. I miss so much Akihabara. You can test each and every product there.
About the menus, not really sure, but somewhere I read that it was in connection with some export taxes, so by only having it in Japanese, they can avoid them. But that might be wrong.
Taiyaki, oh man….
@ Vlad: I had the same experience-ideas-hesitation about the Nex5n, which is priced decently. Then the lack of English menu pushed me towards the Nex 7 (which, having more external controls, is easier to use without having to understand the menu); then I realised that the lack of good lenses would spoil the investment, at least at the moment. That is why I got the “interim” epl3, then we’ll see (OMD, or EM5, I still have to get the name right, was not out yet, and now it is out but back-ordered even in Yodobashi-Bic Camera).
@ Carl: it would actually be a very good idea for forcing people to learn Japanese. If, of course, other brands like Olympus, Canon and Nikon weren’t spoiling it by offering cameras with multi-language menus 😀
JB, Sony isn’t selling only the camera. This losses aren’t coming from Alpha cameras. The losses are coming other departments, mainly TV. And they should have cut employees years ago. They had unefficient and extremely complicated corporate sturcture. Negative figure seems so big because of additional tax expense. The actual loss is much smaller. New CEO Hirai is already restructuring the company. Dramatically boost the efficiency, simply the corporate struture, and sharing info and communication between different departments. His is expecting 2013 will be positive.
“Surpass”… I don’t think so, selling 10 cybershots per one D4 is not, by any means,surpassing anything…SURPASSING would be having competitive cameras in every category, top of the line lenses, availability (in which maybe Canon is doing best), and prestige. Sony does have a name as a brand, but is far from SURPASSING C or N on anything DSLR, sorry but this is true… far and falling behind each day.
The problem is that DSLRs themselves are disappearing.
No they are not. They sell as much as ten years ago (including film cameras).
What is disappearing is the small-sensor compact camera, substituted by cellphones.
Alas, that is where Sony had a good market, once…
Thank you Lorenzino for some sense… Any brand releasing any DSLR sells out… maybe Vlad is a bit confused.
Yes, they are. We are talking about Japan and DSLR sales there are declining. Ok, maybe I shouldn’t have used the word “disappear”. Outside Japan, that is a different story.
Nope, in Japan DSLR sales are not down. Mirrorless are up, but, as I said, at the expense of compacts, not DSLRs.
lorenzino, please check my reply above. Plenty of statistics that prove you wrong.
Dear Sitti, Japan is the land of technology experimentations, but you just do not see alpha cameras being actually used. Few weeks ago there was the cherry blossom season, and I could spot thousands of cameras (and cellphones) taking pictures. Many mirrorless (m43, nex and Nikon 1 mainly), many many cellphones, and many dslr, mostly Nikon and Canon. Very few Pentax (yes, even Pentax), even Hasselblads (film ones), no Sony alpha spotted. And I was paying attention…
Well, walking around and see who is using which brand isn’t very reliable way to find out. Need to look at sales figures and market share percentage. If you haven’t, you’ll be surpriced how much Sony has gained over the last few years.
First pic of Nikon D600
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-17869436
😉
http://www.itsnicethat.com/articles/ikea-ps
It’s a good strategy for Nikon. Hook newcomers with low cost Nikon ff, farm them with lenses. Tat’s a good way to stifle a Sony/canon ff adoption. Hope Sony works a way ard tat.
I thought the deal with Nikon was that they bought the tech for Sony Sensors but tweaked them for their own cameras. I don’t doubt the Nikon D3200 uses a similar sensor to the a77 – if not the same sensor – but I also don’t doubt that Nikon tweaked it. Does that count as “designing it”? Not really… but I don’t honestly care. I’d rather Nikon be paying Sony for sensors than making their own. I love my a77, and I want Sony to do well, even if some of their profits come from selling sensors to Nikon.
The D600 will be inexpensive FF camera for n00bs. By not having a focus motor for older pro lenses (like the 135mm f/2.0 DC lens, Price: $1,389.95 at B&H), it puts it in the same class as a D3200 and below a D7000.
Looks like FF is the new high megapixel.
Wow, with the ff price getting lower and lower. one day in future we will only see all dslr slt are all ff sensor except m43 😛
I will buy any brand that offers an FF camera for 1,500$ or less.
I am glad FF sensors are soon to be within reach of average consumers…
Now it’s time for Sony to release a Medium Format Sensor for under $3000.
This will turn the industry upside-down!
And what mount/lenses would they put on it?
Sony cant support the two mounts they have now with lenses.
How does Nikon come out with a sub $1500 FF camera??? TTL OVF Pentaprisms for a 100% view usually are quite expensive to manufacture…
Unless, they are planning to use EVF!!!
It’d still sell with a 92% pentaprism if they really hit 1500. Heck, even a really nice pentamirror is not out of the bounds of reality. It’s no different from making an affordable film SLR.
In fact in film era 1.500 dollars was the price for a very good professional camera. Prices rose so much not because of the cost of the camera mechanical parts, but because of the prices of sensors and electronic parts (well, this is what we were told, at least).
So 1.500 is theoretically possible, although not very profitable for Nikon…
Profitability would depend on the cost of the sensor and processor, but it’s conceivable that they’d sell if at a less than optimal margin, just to put the screws on Canon and Sony.
Inflation that raises the prices.
Hey $1500 for FF? You must be kidding. Maybe D600 will not be a FF camera? If so it will replace D300 and have 24MP APS-C Sony sensor just like A77.
Nikon D3200 don’t use a Sony designed sensor, it doesn’t feature on sensror ADC and is also slghtly smaller than Sony APS-C sensors. Nikon D3100 also didn’t use Sony sensor but Nikon one.
Nikon D600 FF = $1500 USD
Sony A99 FF = $1200 USD
Sony A77 APS-C = $899 USD
What is on your mind?
So nikon will not be 1500 for a FF.. the D300s replacement would be in that range. I would say 2000 to 2300 for the nikon d600 and a99
no $1500 for a FF.. the D300s replacement would be in that range. I would say $2000 to $2300 for the nikon d600 and a99
starting at $2000 for the D600 makes more sense. i mean, it is a FF. if it’s said that the A99 will have more advanced features, so what if it’s priced at like, $2400? doesn’t nikon’s rivaling canon model price theirs a few hundred dollars more? you don’t necessarily see all canon users switching over. just a thought.
too many people just want a lot more for way less – low ballers. of course, i’d want the same, but let’s be realistic.