Image courtesy: Camerasize.com.
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With the introduction of the new Nikon DF (specs here at Amazon) one more company enters the “Retro” (hype?) momentum. Dpreview writes: “My worry about the Df is that Nikon might have gone too far backwards for the sake of cosmetic appeal, without really adding any practical benefit to the shooting experience.” That said cosmetics matters and it’s nice to buy and own a good-looking camera!
The question I would like you to answer now is. Would you like Sony to offer a retro alike A- or/and E-mount camera? Or would you prefer Sony to improve the current more modern design? They could take some inspiration from great Minolta camera slike the [shoplink 22551 ebay]X-700 (here on eBay)[/shoplink] or the [shoplink 22567 ebay]X-700 (here on eBay)[/shoplink].
[poll id=”168″]
P.S.: I would be already happy if Sony would remove the orange paint from the mount ring 🙂
234 Responses
They could try making a new sensors (and supply it to others) and use it in a camera without NFC/WiFi but a good camera with a silent shutter…
+1
Silent shutter would be a must!
No.
Fake retro just for its own sake is tasteless, and different from simply keeping proven traditional design (as in the Fujis). Personally, I dislike the “molten blob” design of many current DSLRs, and I love Sony’s bold Nex-7, despite the usability shortcomings of unmarked, a-modal dials.
I am not so fond of the fake prism hump of the A7, but it can be justified by the difficulty to stuff an EVF into the corner of the small body. There seems to be no excuse for Nikon’s massive, towering turret abomination.
+1
I disliked the hump at first, but it’s still better than olympus and way better than this nikon disease with a lens.
also and slightly off topic, I would like to see the huge mode dial gone on the sony. diminishes the pro feel somehow, if one of the main control elements is dedicated to some of the more amateurish options like scene modes and such.
Agreed! Sony please remove the fake prism hump
That hump on the A7r is probably hiding all sorts of electronics it couldn’t fit into that thin body. Don’t think it’s there just for looks.
right. and what everybody seem to miss is that the a7 has a larger screen than the nex cameras. it’s taller. they couldn’t fit a viewfinder on top of it without the hump. (and they couldn’t fit it to the left of it without making the whole body significantly larger). the larger screen makes it worth it imho.
I too disliked the A7 hump at first. Although I was hoping for a NEX 7 type body, I must say that the A7r design has really grown on me. It now looks like the perfect combination of modern clean lines and retro shape. Much better than the chunky Nikon Df. I agree the small A7 hump was necessary because this EVF is larger and better than the tiny one in the NEX 7.
I could do without the orange ring though and I wish the hotshoe was black like on the RX1 instead of silver.
“usability shortcomings of unmarked, a-modal dials”?
No shit. There’s a point and shoot out there for you if you can’t keep two user-selectable dials straight.
It is not about confusing the dials, but about the interface itself. On marked dials, the exposure, shutter, aperture, ISO, AF and mode settings are not hidden inside the camera’s memory, to be gleaned on screen and manipulated indirectly. On pro cameras, but also on the RX1, Fuji X and Canon Gx, the dial practically stores the state. Even before turning the camera on, I know its setttings. My brain does not need to know what interaction mode the camera is in before I turn an omniwheel to change exposure.
In mechanical cameras, the relationship between dial and state was inevitable. Modern cameras do not have this limitation, but it is mostly used to save cost, instead of improving ergonomics. The Nex-7 tries to re-think the UI without the goal of saving cost, for which I applaud Sony. But I still think the direct relationship between dial and state is better.
@Joscha: “But I still think the direct relationship between dial and state is better.”
Well – I thought so for decades but changed my mind in the last years (not only for cameras). I want dedicated controls for important things to control (for a camera e.g. shutter speed, ISO, aperture) but I want to customize what controls are there and I want to save some different layouts/default settings (e.g. camera: default setting for studio, default setting for concert stage and and and…)
This is not possible with marked dedicated controls… And as there is no possibility to operate the camera without battery anymore I don’t see any reason to manipulate settings in the off state of the camera…
There are only two things I need to do without (charged) battery: open battery compartment for changing it and most important: open card slot for removing memory card (I hate those DVD players on notebooks there you cannot open the DVD tray (w/o tools) if battery is empty!!!)
@Achim: For me, the benefit of the new cameras is their compactness. This makes them perfect for traveling, and I also have my Nex always in my bag. If I did studio photography, I would probably want a different body and keep it mounted on the tripod. Size would not matter.
As a result, I find that I use my camera in very few modes, with the same functions on every wheel in every mode. I am missing an ISO dial (because I need to check that when the light and conditions change), and I would wish for a way to store custom settings on a mode wheel (especially for different lenses, and for BW HDR).
But I understand that your needs vary. I will probably be better off upgrading to an X-E2 instead of waiting for a Nex-7 replacement, and perhaps get a used RX1 as my street camera, biting back my worries about the slow AF, which really plagues me on the old Nex.
“Modern cameras do not have this limitation, but it is mostly used to save cost, instead of improving ergonomics”
I would have to disagree. Modern dials are faster to operate, quiet, allow customization and take less space. With an EVF, the issue of not being able to glance at the settings is alleviated to an extent. I do enjoy dedicated dials, don’t get me wrong, but the modern ones seem to have more advantages than disadvantages. What is your opinion on that? And have you seen a concept name Snima Iris?
+1 hats off chapeau exactly precisely
the new nikon is a joke
My Nikkormat looks much better than this Df pig.
Who here cares about Nikon Df ?
A7 is totally different thing,
Df is just a obsolete DSLR in New Retro box.
You are correct.
I like the sony and will buy it, just waiting for real tests.
I disagree; if I owned a lot of Nikon glass, the DF would be an exciting prospect and might make me think twice about an a7/a7R.
In fact, it’s closer to what I’d have wanted for an A900 successor than the A99 was; not because of the retro styling, but because of the emphasis on a clean photo-centric camera without compromises for video
+1.
totally agree, most people commenting on the Df forget that this is not a camera to conquer new customers but to KEEP Nikon lens owners using Nikon bodies rather then jumping ship and buying the A7/A7r. Once we look beyond the retro styling, which, imho, is secondary, this was a brilliant move by Nikon. A 16mp sensor is a lot more forgiving when paired with ff lenses from the past, af and af d lenses will focus perfectly and the camera will balance nicely in your hands. The high price, well ,Nikon figured that 90% of their target audience will buy body only .
hard to tell, I’d buy such a camera (and planned to do so) for old manual lenses which you can buy cheaply. but there’s no focusing aid on the Df. AF and AF-D users probably already have one of the SLRs. but I might be wrong. I’m just not buying Nikon’s marketing BS. I was very excited but then more and more leaked, last remaining bit was focusing with manual lenses – and they haven’t done anything to improve it, yep, you get small green ‘focus confirmation’ dot – is that it?
Live View, loupe Magnification – and there You go with old-school manual lenses. With external monitor focus peaking is possible even if Nikon didn’t implemented it.
@Maciej – sounds like a lot of fun
I don’t understand excitement with Sony A7 and manual lenses in_daily_use. Is EVF with zoom so much handy and so much pleasure to use? I don’t know, one day I will find out myslef. For static shooting (with tripod) I don’t see anything wrong with LCD Live View and loupe. For studio work external monitor with focus peaking is a joy to use. Nikon has lots of old-school AF lenses as well so it depends where You want to use Your camera.
I used “big” zoom (2.8/70…200) regularly on a A55 with EVF with some mixed feelings but not because of size of body or lens.
And with the A77 and A99 its a pleasure to use such a zoom in manual mode (both focus and exposition!) with focus peaking and histogram in the EVF! Control of the lens with left hand – control of exposition with the fingers of the right hand… (But to do it that way you cannot use the vertical grip – also with the vertical grip mounted I’m too slow changing from horizontal to vertical…) Reviewing taken pictures without taking camera off my eye…
I’m shooting during rock concerts….
I would say it’s more of a stall tactic, diverting Nikon shooters’ attention from the Sony A7/A7R (definitely considering that piece-meal “pure photography” craps). They know they’re not going to have a lot of sale with this Df, but it certainly would get people excited for a short period. By this time, I think most would think that their D600/D800 would do just fine and totally forgot about that Sony FF mirrorless. Admittedly, it even got me excited with all the “pure photography” crap. If Nikon would either implement a hybrid OVF/EVF or huge matte OVF, I would have bought one. 1400 pictures per charge is a huge plus and the deliberate control fits my style. Too bad…
Good move on Nikons part to stop the financial bleeding and the lost sales to mirrorless choices.
Charge $3000 for a $2000 camera to make Old Nikon owners feel like they have something new. It looks like it will not keep the competition at the gates for long as mirrorless just keeps capturing more customers.
My first camera was a Nikon F and at the time it was function over form. Today Nikon is pushing form over function and I’m not buying it for $3000. IMO……
I still disagree that the Df and a7 are competing directly. The Df is simply Nikon’s way of addressing the most profitable part of the market. But, inside said market the audiences for these two cameras will barely intersect.
Not sure why people geek about this stuff – its about the photograher and not the equiptment. If you spend time geeking out about a thumb-dial placement vs. actually using your equiptment you’ll just be another joker in the crowd with way to much tech to really be “functional” as a photographer. I use film as well as digital .. and I could care less about sh1t like this. Nikon and Sony both have compelling tech – so you buy what is suitable to your situation, and move on … make great art / production work. Beyond that 10% of this is the stuff you care. 90% of is the stuff you actually create / make.
Agreed John. I see all to often people thinking a new body will make them a better photographer. I’m guilty of that myself and I’d be we all probably are to a point. But, I’ve seen real pros use bodies that are 4-5 years old or older, create images as good as or better than some of what I see today. I am fortunate to know an acclaimed photographer with images hanging in the Smithsonian in D.C. and who has also been published in Outdoor Photographer and National Geographic who still uses a D300. Point is, who cares. The new stuff may help in areas like ISO performance etc. But, if you don’t know how to capture an image, what you have in your hands doesn’t matter other than to satisfy your ego when someone says, “Wow, nice camera, I bet you get great pictures.” Because as we all know, the camera makes the photographer… < sarcasm if don't recognize it. 😉
Someone with a Nikon lens collection who wants the D4 sensor for less cash? I’d love that…
Sounds interesting until you realise the D4 sensor isn’t that special in current age. It’s comparable to the 6D sensor in terms of noise characteristics. Less DR at low ISO than the D610 sensor, similar noise in highlights and midtones, a hair less noise in shadows at extreme ISO’s. Less resolution than any new FF sensor.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see that the A7 sensor outperform the D4 sensor.
The A99 already has the same rating as the D4 at DX0Mark, and that’s through a translucent mirror.
haha really? so 6d=d4 mmm…. yea for sure XD
Yep, cut something out of context and make it something it’s not.
Hilarious.
16MP retro blabla at a price of €3000 ???
NO, not with me!!!!
FF should nowadays be around in a €1000 body!
+1. In NikonWorld math, each extra dial must cost the consumer an extra $750. The DF seems like a cynical marketing exercise, Nikon executives said, “Lets give them the retro camera they think they want- and make ’em pay through the nose for it !”
Perhaps Canon will beat Nikon with a 8MPx camera next. And with the ‘New’ Canon we have to wind each time we want to take a new picture.
Desighn a camera based on function….who the heck cares what it looks like.
Exactly.
YES
Function and ergonomics are the most important. And if they get these right, the camera will probably look good too.
If the radii of edges are large enough that the corners do not dig into your hand, the surfaces of the camera will flow into each other smoothly, which improves appearance.
Yes exactly the point..
A camera with z shift autofocus for example could be shaped like a video camera or cube to allow more room for the sensor to move back and forth.
Well…., lots of people care what things look like…, think about what we all do…, i.e. try to make beautiful pictures…., most of the world cares…, and, like it or not, you care. It’s not bad; it’s good. We all make value judgments.
Form Follows Function is/was and easy cliche that came about in architecture in the early 20th century and, if you think and look carefully, it is basically meaningless.
Cameras are a perfect test case–of all the cameras made today and historically, in which ones does form actually follow function. None–all the changes are stylistic and meant to depict an idea about form, manufacturing and contemporary society.
Of course, some “function” better, some worse. Some are more comfortable, some less. That’s due to the skill of the designer not an abstract, unverifiable principle. Hold a NEX 7 in one hand; does it feel good, comfortable and easily used? It does to me. Hold a Nikon D610 in one hand; does it feel good, comfortable and easily used? It does to me. They couldn’t look more different.
So it’s a mistake to justify your stylistic preference by saying it’s more functional!!! Accept the notion that we make value judgments based on appearance all the time.
If looks are important than make it LOOK FUNCTIONAL.
Everything should look like what it does..controls big and easy to use..
That woild make the user look professional.
As for me I still dont care what the camera looks like.
Don’t believe I agree. Form indeed did follow function with the Nikon cameras of 3 decades ago.
Because operation of said devices was a two handed thing. Left hand: base support for camera and lens + operate focus ring + operate aperture ring. Right hand: Adjust shutter speed, advance film, fire shutter. Both hands working at once like a piano player, supporting each other instinctively.
THAT’s why there were dials. Not just for cosmetic appeal. Form followed function so that all manual controls fell to hand.
This new Nikon is a poseur. It’s a cargo cult toy. As though by simply building things like shutter speed dials in isolation of the total package, you could invoke Real Retrogradism. As though the designers of this had no idea what people actually did in the 70s, and though it was just like a wide tie or platform shoes; dials as fashion statement.
Who cares what it looks like?
The majority of consumers, that is who.
Come on animals, even people on SAR care what it looks like.
Women in particular care what it looks like.
There is a difference between a laboratory instrument, and a consumer good.
Essentially, EVERYONE cares what it looks like.
Right!
They should remember the principles of design established by Bauhaus or what e.g. Dieter Rams created for Braun in the 60s/70s and what they get will be very ergonomical _and_ elegant _and_ timeless pieces of equipment!
For me “retro” is disguising modern technology in old clothes… something like the “Mini” or even worse the “New Beetle”
And why for heavens sake does this new Nikon Df have a screw thread for a cable release??? Who needs this antique thing???
Well, the A7 with the grip is really amazing. Certainly as clean as Reims’ work. But it does feel somewhat unfinished without it.
http://ugotshotby.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Sony-A7-batt-grip.jpg
+1 after holding it at the Expo, I think the grip is absolutely necessary
ok, question about that grip. How did it feel? It doesn’t have scroll dial, which I find particularly strange.
I certainly do. Same as like my computer and my sofa to look nice. Crappy visual appearance won’t stop me from buying a camera that delivers, but it is surely a nice bonus to have.
hard to describe, like honey, you gotta taste it 🙂 but holding the camera without and then with the grip, you don’t want to take it off because you suddenly realize even in horizontal position it just feels right, adding support and stabilization without making the camera feel heavy or large. I think buying the A7/r without the grip we only get 75% of goodness
Well, I was 75% sold and now I need to buy it 🙂
Yup. Done & Done. Moving on.
A well-known keyboard-playing rock star was once interviewed about his collection of synthesisers. When asked on what basis he made his choices, one of the main things was the way the synthesiser looked; and the reason he gave for this was that in his experience if something looked s*** it usually was s***. An interesting perspective, and not without merit.
“P.S.: I would be already happy if Sony would remove the orange paint from the mount ring”
I actually like it! 🙂
+1 me too!
I Think it’s like a signum for a Sony interchangeable lens camera 🙂
so what about the RX1, orange too? And why doens’t nex have it? It just means FF sensor inside…
Well it just means the top of the food chain camera (i.e. with FF sensor inside). It’s like the red ring on Canon L, golden ring on Nikon G, or the red/blue badge on those German optics. Some would want to hide it, some don’t care, and some want to show it off. I think it gives the product a bit of personality. But that’s just me…
Definitely NO! Sony has found its own approach for camera design. And if you like it or not it has a certain character and is modern. And if I see the Df and A7 side by side I have to say: Sony looks nice, the Nikon looks big, ugly and antiquated. But that’s just my personal opinion as a long time and convinced Nikon shooter (who is now fully switched to mirrorless from SONY, Oly, Pana and Nikon 1)…
+1. I like where they are going with the design.
No need to go retro for Sony. Going retro w/o aperture rings seems pointless. What I’d like to see is A7 with the VF placed on the left side of the body, could be a bit wider to accommodate this change.
What would be really cool in the retro fashion, if Sony release proper 6×6 digital CMOS back for owners of Hasselblad V and similar systems. There are a lot of them out here and Sony wouldn’t need to worry about the lens range. Just a back with LCD and controls.
For me,
Sony A7/A7R just like the design of a minimalism modern car, without too much historical fashion or design but keep some limited variations.
Nikon Df like a muscle car, with the necessary streamlines in its design and maintain its glory of historical background.
The A7/A7R is a retro design already.
+1, i dont see why people dont think that. its very retro boxy already
SOny A7 is not retro at all. Just because it has some dials? The only camera that looked like that before is the RX1, this was 2012 so you could call it 2012 retro 😉 The EVF “Pentaprism hump” is just functional in my opinion, I don’t know if they could have solved it in any other way. The rest is just modern industrial design, no retro at all!
I really like that orange ring…
I love the orange ring also, DO NOT remove it please.
me too! it spices things up from the standard bland black color on the rest of the camera
Trying to sell old style cameras to half dead dinosaurs is just stupid.
Dinosaurs are dead and gone.
The future is here now. Get with it or die like the dinos.
The Meteor hit Chelyabinsk but it didn’t work.
Sony A7 does not have shift sensor so … it is also a bit of dinosaur when it comes to focusing with “not Sony lenses”. Has anyone reported AF speed with old Minolta glass on Sony A7?
The problem with sony is not the look, I think the complete line of NEX/Alpha looks good and unique (the SLT Line maybe less). The problem is not the innovation but lack of consecutive improvement on that innovative technology.
the biggest problem here in Germany for Sony is marketing/image: a lot of potential customers don’t take you for serious with an A77 or A99 but if you have a D90 or even a D5200 or a 50D you are a professional!
I seriously thought of painting the Sony letters black and using a neutral strap to avoid silly questions even from colleagues…
Maybe a special problem here in Germany?
CaNikon is considered the ‘pro’ gear for still photography here in North America too.
But here, from what I’ve seen, the pro’s also have a lot of respect for Fuji, Sony, Olympus and Panasonic.
Many are still looking for the integration in stills and video, and Sony is of course ‘very pro’ in the broadcasting/video industry (at least here in NA).
Here a lot of professionals really don’t even know the differences between their Canikons and the SLT technology…
2/3 of them are really surprised when I’m showing them Liveview in the EVF or autofocus during video and _all_ pro photographers w/o video experience till today get raised eyebrows showing them focus peaking….
Same in the USA. I couldn’t get to the photographer’s area at my kids preschool because I had a point & shoot Sony RX1 with me. The parents with their DSLR shaped fixed lens zooms can go to the stage. I had to stay back with the iPhone parents.
Lens choice my friend. If You are pro-shooter You must have also (hire/ own):
– tilt/shift for architectural shots
– long fast tele for sports
– very long tele for wildlife (f/5.6 is enough)
– long macro for nice close-ups
Wonder no more why CaNikon is treated as professional gear and Sony is … not.
Not every professional is doing everything from architecture to macro to sports…
And most Nikon pros I know use Sigma glass…
Only the Canon boys spend a lot of money for their grey status symbols…
But you are right: for some special niches there are lenses for Canikon but not for Sony/Minolta. And rental companies ignore Sony – but that’s a bit of the “hen-egg-problem”.
It’s very difficult to rent non existent lenses. I am trying to be as politely as I can by saying this.
In that case, step aside. I shall bring my Schneider Kreuznach Tilt/shift, 180mm f/2.8 Apochromatic macro, 300 f2.8, 70-200 f/2.8, and 500mm f/4.
Now you know something about the A mount. Pass it along to other uninformed people
Are You kidding me? Canon/ Nikon lenses versions are much cheaper than Schneider lenses and they also offer AF. If You mount Canon version of a lens on Sony body via adapter then AF will suffer, AF will be slow. Schneider as a medium format lens – hmmmm – I think it is worth to buy digital back for it, don’t play with medium format lens on a 35mm body (or shall we wait for Speedbooster for medium format lenses??). For medium format lens I would choose the cheapest digital back with smallest Mpix count and some Mamiya/ Hasselblad body (used one). Color rendition/tonality of Medium Format digital backs is superb, 35mm sensors don’t even come close.
I also like the orange ring, I’d prefer SONY to keep it.
I personally don’t care for small size. I love to work with big cameras. Ergonomically bigger cameras are much more comfortable in use.
I wouldn’t call it retro for the sake of being retro. Its a classic design that’s was produced a lot longer than the black blobs of present which i would agree is not progress at all. However on the other hand the question is should Sony go retro and my answer would be no i think Sony are on the right track.
I’m sure Nikon will make money out of the DF and it is likely a very capable machine (I even confess to liking the aesthetics of the design). However, older designs were created for technical reasons, limited by the engineering of the time and manufacturing methods, but attempting to best allow easy control.
Now, though, things have moved on and, to be honest, I have no idea why we still cling to thumb/finger wheels or clicking dials! I’m pretty sure, given the facilities, I could create a camera that could do away with almost all such controls, yet still be immediate in operation.
Please don’t give me a control just for the hell of it! I want to be able to take pictures quickly without ‘things’ getting in the way.
A retro wannabe? No. Go get a real film camera if you want retro.
Admin,
You should change the subject to
Nikon DF vs Sony A7r. Should Nikon go “Mirrorless”?
😀
I want Sony to make a retro camera: an A900 with the newest and best FF sensor and latest BIONZ. That would be really pure photography and kick Df ass hard!!
What I fully appreciate of the Df are the rings, one per function: +- exp, iso, speed, aperture, manual DoF…. (by manual lens), forgetting menus and display, looking only on top of the camera before shooting, and finally the cable shutter release.
If it means old fashion, I like it.
I woul like to test A7 A7r and Df with my lenses before purchasing my new FF, I’ve deleted my pre-order!!
How about make a modern style camera combine some “retro” design spirit? such as MINOLTA DYNAX 7 which has two dials on its shoulder but also have lots of new technology that time.
Why Nikon sensor on the picture looks so smaller?
because you’re not seeing the sensor on the Nikon; you’re seeing the mirror
Ah… Now it makes much more sense 🙂
pretty much after this, Nikon (and the giantsleeping c4n0n) will pretty much known as retro camera maker (that stays that way because they just looping everything) while Sony and the m43 wagons will be march on and progresses as the REAL innovator.. 😀
Seeing this big chunk compared to the A7, it makes me realize how small the A7 actually is,
and that I do NOT miss those big SLRs of the past one bit. If retro, then why not as small as a
Canon AE1?
Anyone remember the Citroen BX? The kinda ugly cousin of the sleeker Citroen CX? That’s how I look at the A7/7r compared with the sleeker NEX7 which is both modern, innovative and what I had hoped the A7/7r would have looked like.
The Nikon Df is perhaps a bit too retro for those brought up on autofocus SLR cameras, but it is a lovely beast to look at and for those of us who have used manual focus film cameras, a very welcome development (except perhaps the price …). I think it will be a very welcome addition to the Nikon stable.
So, all in all, I still don’t like the A7/7r as I think it looks like a inadequate teenage design student quickly came up with the design to please a teacher who was urging him to complete a late assignment, which was graded “F” when it was finally submitted… The A7/7r may be a technologically great camera (if the reviews are anything to go by) but from an esthetic viewpoint, I can’t wait for it’s replacement.
It looks more like an old F2, but in reality, the A7 will work much better with all of the Nikon MF lenses. Digital-era OVFs are practically useless for manually focusing.
The Nikon DF makes me look like a real photographer (just like wearing a smock and beret would make me a better artist).
It will look cool as I drive around in my Edsel taking snaps of old gas stations with my friends.
In fact, I’ll need another camera so I can take pictures of the DF on the table next to my latte, or next to the Edsel speedo, or leaning against my Les Paul (I can’t play a note, but y’know, gotta own the classics to cultivate your looks).
Only slight issue I have with the camera is that they should have called it the DHF rather than the DF, as that would make more sense (Dumb Hipster F…).
Well said, Shamb. In the spirit of your remarks I just dusted off my wood shafted Bobby Jones mashie niblick and hit a few in the backyard and now I’m tightening the laces on my James Naismith b-ball; about to blow it up and go one on one with my grandfather.
Sony has split the difference between retro and modern without losing functionality. The A7 is much more customizable which translates to much more function.
Just one thing to say: the size wins it all.
+1on that.
The Nikon feels more balanced, especially when mounted with my 300 f4, or with the 85 1.4. Less carpal tunnel pain for a day of shooting.
I mean A7 wins Nikon DF in compactness, but I do agree f2.8 zooms & f1.4 lenses must be used on a full size DSLR.
The Nikon is trying to split the difference between “retro” and modern and I’m not sure it works. That said, I wish sony would add aperture and SS dials to the A7, just don’t make it bristle with other buttons. One of my gripes about the A7/r is the mode dial. Really? Fuji has the best hardware design these days outside of Leica. But I prefer a simple and clean hardware interface.
would be really nice to have aperture rings, I was hoping we’d see them on A7 after RX1 featured one.
I agree with you, wildstar. None of the half-dozen Nikon lenses I own (and use on my D800) has an aperture ring, so the shutter speed dial on the top deck of the Df is a waste for people like me who tend to shoot in aperture priority mode or manual mode. With the Df, the aperture still has to be set electronically. With my D800, I can select both settings very efficiently via the camera’s front and rear command wheels. The shutter speed dial on the Df may be useful and/or convenient for those who tend to use shutter speed priority, e.g., for action shots, but it does little or nothing to enhance the shooting experience for the rest of us photographers who tend towards aperture priority or manual mode.
Leave the orange ring where it is. It is very neat.
Sure. Resurrect the KM 7D 😉
I like the retro-design of Nikon Df more than Olympus one. Honestly I like Hasselblad Solar’s colours and esthetics more than current Sony A7/A7R.
Years ago, when Panasonic released the L1, I quite liked the retro style. Same for Olympus with the OMD-EM5 and Fuji.
But now it seems thing are getting a bit too out of hand. Everyone is releasing a “retro” styled camera just for the f*** of it. Instead of being charming, they’re just being “me too!”.
You CAN make modern and good looking at the same time, and I think Nex 6 & 7 are the best examples.
Also….. perhaps it’s just me, but there something about that Df that reminds me the Pentax K-01…. yeah! I mean it. Perhaps that boxy design.
Anyway, I hope that ‘retro’ trend dies soon.
“Anyway, I hope that ‘retro’ trend dies soon.”
In February, I hope! 😛
This is one area where Sony clearly has the better product.
This is what’s happen in the market:
At the start of the 2000s people started buying pretty silver compacts. They though they were pretty good at photography so in the mid-2000s they started buying proper big DSLRs to look like real photographers, because only real photographers had DSLRs. By the end of the 2000s everyone had DSLRs. So, in the early 2010s people started buying retro looking cameras because rela photographers appreciate the design and don’t need those big DSLRs that everyone else has. In the mid-2010s everyones got a retro mirrorless. But real photographers have retro DSLRs, so we all start buying them instead…. At the end of the 2010s we all have retro DSLRs…
Retro bod without retro (looking) lens just looks weird. I thought about cancelling my a7r order (along with the 50mm summilux), but then i thought how can i put a modern nikkor g lens on the DF? I liked the fact that the DF sported a D4 sensor, but the fps is slower than the D610? Huh!
What’s next for Nikon? Pink and purple versions?
The DF is shit ugly. If Sony ever gave such a camera I’d never ever buy it, not in a million years.
I think Sony is on the right track with their latest offerings. The A7 and A7R may not be perfect but they are modern designs in a light weight, functional body with a great sensor. In my opinion Sony is leading the way and will only continue to grow in their photography business with this strategy.
I like retro… but I think Sony is headed in the right direction.
One of the reason I like the retro design of the Df is the dials for ISO, Shutter Speed, Exp. Comp and Av. Very functional, very quick (unlike some cameras where you have to dig through menu’s to change even some basis settings).
The A7/7r’s however, are very well designed and customizable – just as good / quick / easy… maybe even more-so because you can custom set it the way you personally like it.
I thought like you but I changed my mind:
dedicated dials for speed, aperture and so on are really good and ergonomical but in the “new” style not the old style (like the Df) with predefined values written on the dials. The layout of the A7 seems quite good for me, neutral but dedicated dials in the reach of your fingers and displaying values in the EVF.
Why should I adjust values with camera switched off (as Nikon tells us that feature as an advantage)? If my battery is down I’ve no need for adjusting anything, if battery is alive I can watch all values arranged ergonomically on the EVF or a display…
Hey HERE’S an idea.
How about if Sony focuses on solid designs that don’t abandon users who have been there since the A100 and before??
I’m tired of these “innovations” that just slap long-time users in the face and make it look like A-Mount lenses and minolta hotshoes are some kind of joke.
If I wanted to be like everyone else I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT CANON.
Oh, they look like direct competitors! The small Df would be a great lightweight solution for street shooting!
…slap…slap…slapslapslapslapslap (hitting 5.5)…slap
Ok, ok 🙂 I know.
Sony, please, do a NEX 7 style fullframe!! That is the look of the future! We are not bound by the determinism of the position of the optical prism anymore. You could make a big promotion by adverstising heavily the rangefinderstyle is the future and CANIKON are failling to innovate
Yes, I wonder why they didn’t keep the same controls as the NEX-7, even with the hump.
Actually, thinking about it… maybe it WOULD be a good idea for Sony to make a retro camera… even if it didn’t sell… just to remind everyone that they are the successor’s of the Minolta heritage. I know they’re looking to gain whatever ‘cred’ they can get as a ‘camera’ company.
This pleases and bothers me at the same time. I’ve been hoping for YEARS that Sony would quit jerking this Megapixel race. Just about nobody needs a 24mp APS-C sensor, and although there is a need for some big beefy full frames, I’d do just about anything for a low-light KILLER like this thing. I don’t need huge resolutions, 16mp is more than enough, and to make a FULL FRAME with such big beautiful pixels, Nikon is really doing the right thing here. I’m a sony man, but goddamn, I want this camera so much.
There’s nothing I don’t absolutely LOVE about this camera, aside from it being a Nikon mount. Statistically, aesthetically, and functionally, it seems to be my DREAM camera. dedicated hardware knobs for ISO and shutter and exposure bias, as well as a “whatever the hell you want” dial on the back? Brilliant.
PLEASE Sony, step it up, and give us some low-light killers. Stop shoving megapixels up everything, stop making hundreds of NEX bodies and only a handful of lenses, get it together. I love you sony, but I’m caring less and less for things you’ve been doing in the last year. the A99 was the last thing of yours I’ve been excited about. 🙁 and I hope I’m not totally alone on that.
The D4 score much better than the D800 in low-iso according to DXOMark, yet it has more than 50% less pixel density.
I agree that 24mp APS-C was a stupid move in the days of the D7000 and A77, and probably still is today.
To me the best retro camera for Sony would be a Maxxum 9 with a full frame sensor where the film would be and a rear screen for reviewing images. No other changes PERIOD just a bare bones body. This would be a purists camera based on the best 35mm SLR ever made and SONY has access to all of the tooling no doubt. No need to reinvent the wheel, just tweek it slightly!
would be nice if they could keep with a retro-ish theme for the design of their cameras. The A7 is retro-ish enough though not exactly pretty, the A900/850 was also a retro-ish design in my opinion and probably one of the best-looking cameras yet. Both are designs that are not easily mistaken for a Canon or Nikon. The function should dictate the design. The A99 looks almost like it was made larger just so the overall flowing design could be kept.
imho sony need to drop the kind of flowing design for a slightly boxier one (without giving up ergonomics though) to differentiate themselves from the big two.
I would be very happy if Sony would remove the orange paint from the mount ring 🙂
You should compare the Alpha99 with this Nikon Camera. I like the new design of the Nikon a lot because I like the manual dials a lot. But I think no one really needs a mirror camera body today for the use case of carrying a lightweight camera. So the Sony 7 is the better approach for new Sony customers. On the other hand if you can use all your old Nikon lenses with that Nikon it is a good approach for a lot of people. So the answer is not black and white. It depends … The new Nikon looks high-quality but is really expensive.
Well, if someone says nobody cares about how the camera looks… what it does is more important… Just look what happened to Pentax K-01… It was a the ugliest camera I’ve ever seen! Now Nikon DF is a collage of Nikon P7000 with the hump DSLR. I do like the hump don’t get me wrong…like somebody wrote earlier update the A900 with all the new 36 megapixel sensor and BIONZ X mirrorless, quiet shutter… and we have a winner here! It would be the best buy!
“pure photography” would be OVF NO LCD (no chimping)NO AUTO FOCUS
Sony is doing just fine.
Just add some cheap, small and good primes to the E-mount
and even I might buy a A7 one day 🙂
From interaction perspective Nikon has done it right. Unique dials fast and quick to use in a high-quality body. But sadly with 16mp sensor.
not sure about the locks on the dials though -> regarding speed, why is exp comp on the left, left hand should be below the lens, all exposure related controls should be easily accessible with the right hand and your eye on the viewfinder
These are the changes Sony needs to make to achieve a more functional camera with a modern design:
+ Label the context sensitive dials/buttons with E-ink display on top/back with an ambient light-sensitive backlight. That way we can have a modern design and see at a glance how the controls are assigned.
+ Allow us to control the shutter speed intervals for less dial turning. Fixing everything at 1/3 stop is very precise, but way to slow for other situations
+ Enable custom menus sets so that all the gimmicky features we never use and all the durable preferences we almost never have a need to change can be banished entirely from the UI when we don’t want them!
+ Capacitive LCD touch focus/shutter capability on all high-end models. This has become a must have of off-center focusing, far superior moving a cursor around to find a focus point. Just make sure the touch features are disabled when the EVF eye sensor is activated
+Stop putting arbitrarily low limits on things like number of bracketed shots and available EV spreads. At least up to 7 exposures, and at least a 3EV spread.
+Provide focus trap capability, and focus bracketing
+Stop making the timer compete with other features that could really use the timer
+Put in a threaded socket for cable releases on all cameras, not just the RX1
+Enhance the E-mount standard to accommodate leaf shuttered lenses as an option
+Enhance the E-mount standard to accommodate true aperture rings as well
+More and better distance/DOF scales both on the lenses and in the EVF/LCD display
+Configurable Zebra previews for all cameras
+Make the focus peaking level adjustable with a dial
+All a choice of grid colors, allow black as well as white lines, or dynamical guarantee 50% contrast by Xoring the high bit of the pixel values
+Stop putting arbitrarily low limits on things like number of bracketed shots and available EV spreads. At least up to 7 exposures, and at least a 3EV spread.
+Provide focus trap capability, and focus bracketing
+Stop making the timer compete with other features that could really use the timer
Yes agree with this – the bracket feature should not be bundled into the drive mode menu (crazy on my A900). Drive (frame rate), timer etc should all be separate items so the photographer has much better control. I would wish for a wider than 3EV range though at least 5EV.. User controlled focus stack/bracketing feature would be fantastic and pretty easy to implement. A great feature that many would use..
For me I like the orange ring on the new Sony cameras. Besides its not like Canon and Nikon don’t already do it. Canon has the red ring on there L lens and Nikon has the red line on the grips.
For some photographers (me) it more about optics than what the body looks like.
All of the recent mid to high-end products from Sony and Nikon can deliver equal quality images,bells and whistles aside.
If Sony can release quality optics that better or equal Nikon and Canon at a price-point close to the competition, over time the marketplace will change in favor of Sony.
As a photographer that shoots both Nikon FX and Sony A-mount all I can do right now is to invest in FX and sit on my money and see what Sony has planned for the A-Mount and when.
The A7r looks like a hot little beast but I just can’t see me spending on yet another lens mount till the dust settles.
Me, I’m happy that Nikon hasn’t started to change its mount……yet and for that reason the new DF is nice product.
The Df design is appropriate for that body because it is designed to use older Nikon lenses
In contrast the very oldest A-mount lenses date from the mid-1980’s and the FF E-mount lenses have not been released yet. Creating ‘retro’ bodies for A-mount or FE-mount in such circumstances would frankly be absurd
However if Sony want to release a ‘retro’ MD mount DSLR body that would be a different matter 😉
(Impossible as the rights to MD mount were sold to Seagull by Minolta a long time ago)
I think the design is appropriate, as far as it is retro, but it could’ve been made better, while still keeping it retro. 🙂
looks like apsc sensor in DF if That a real size compare,
oooooo its a mirror, well then its not 100 percent cover pentaprims OVF.
i dont understand if this mean pure photography………?!?!
SONY… YOU SHOULD ADVERTISE IN SAR WEBSITE, I can only see nikon logo in SAR, well at least in my region if it is adv based on region.
Oh come on… where do you think all that A7 info published on this site prior to launch came from?
I actually like the orange ring. Am i the only one?
What matters to me is usability. Retro vs modern is completely irrelevant, subject to personal preference and therefore to rapid change in the market demand.
What matters is technology, sensors, glass, AF, mounts, compatibility, accessories, niches, innovation, value add, comfort. The rest is for journalists.
Why are the sensor on the Nikon so small ?
According to Dpreview the sensor size should be equal in dimensions, but ?
(That cam is really ugly…btw)
Improve! I don’t dislike vintage at all… but I have a couple of SLR for that purpose, while I think the industry should always look ahead. Or, if you really want to take me back, do it well and create a new film camera 😀
I found Nikon approach intriguing at first, but eventually a little disappointing also for the price… this time, I really believe Sony got it right, I hope the market will reward them in the end.
Design Matters:
• Too often, engineers are overly responsible for experiential components. One look at most Menus shows artists were not involved. In this regard, Apple gets it. DESIGN should be the topmost experience layer, not code, and certainly no one should have to interface the way an engineer thinks we should interface.
• Whether or not “molten blobs” are the future and are more efficient in use, i would much rather use my Nikon FE2 than ANY dSLR i’ve ever touched, and still more than my F100 or EOS3. Sometimes, a simpler approach isn’t about it being simpler. Sometimes, there’s a SENSUAL aspect that isn’t managed by technology. Shooting an older film camera, for people who grew up with such things, FEELS more like ‘photography.’ Shooting with dSLRs feels like using a CAPTURE DEVICE. Sony might be the worst in this regard. The NEX cameras were nice tools. Unfortunately, they feel no different than a Mini-Disc player. Maybe the A7 is better than the NEX7. But, all reports are that it’s similar to the RX1, which feels like a device, not a camera. This characterization, of course, comes from a 46-year old, who began with film and still prefers film. A 20-year old who has never used an LP or turntable for music reproduction will find a ‘device’ is the default and most natural. ‘Camera’ cameras will likely feel primitive…. But, trying to bridge the markets is likely a bad idea.
• I applaud Nikon’s effort here, but mutha-a-gawd, that chrome version is hideous. The black one is growing on me, but there are just too many buttons and doodads. This ‘hybrid’ approach sorta misses the point. Maybe it just proves you can’t really have an analog approach to a modern, hi-tech dSLR? But, Leica seems to come close with its Ms….
• Nikon probably tried to please too many people here. If you’re going down the retro road, you need to ensure the experience makes sense and is GENUINE. This camera looks like F3/FE2 from the front and top, but on the back, the part the photographer is going to see the most while actually using it — it’s all modern.
Engineers aren’t responsible for the Styling.
My comment about engineers was regarding, specifically, the menu system. Nevertheless, engineers always DO have influence on design. It’s just a matter of how much, and/or how much a designer can overcome engineering and manufacturing needs.
If designers weren’t at the mercy of engineers, cameras would be invisible, unobtrusive, have limitless memory….
I like it. My only concerns are size and sensor. We switched away from Canon and our 5dMii to the nex7 because of size. My wife has a autoimmune disorder that causes pain in her joints. The larger dlsr caused too much strain on her joints. The next was a rough switch. It was quite the step down from a full DSLR. Image quality was pretty good, but we always craved getting the full frame back. With the a7r, we could have it. I love the design of the df, especially the manual controls. But how big is this thing as compared to a large DSLR?
Also, I’m pretty Nikon ignorant, but is the sensor good enough to justify the price? How old and how good is the D4 sensor?
On a side note, I’ve always been frustrated by the lower light performance of my nex7. Wondering if the a7r or the dF would be better.
You can check the dimensions at camerasize.com. I’ve loaded the NEX-7, Nikon Df, Nikon D600 and a7r here (click on the icons above to switch views):
http://camerasize.com/compact/#33,495,378,488,ha,t
I also like having plenty of dials, but I am not sure it will be a good choice in your case. These will be stepped dials (n contrast with the dials of the NEX-7) and will require unlocking them. It wil also be a regularly heavy camera with a rather small grip. As to the sensor, the D4 was introduced almost two years ago and it is a good sensor. Personally, I don’t think this camera deserves its price tag, you are paying almost 1000USD more than a D610, just to get the dials, a smaller grip and a lesser sensor.
Thanks for the link. That thing is still very large, relatively speaking. The a7r is a step up in size from our 7. I also just seen the a7r is about 300 grams lighter than the df.
I’ll just have to hope that lower light performance and focus seeking has improved over the nex7.
Thanks again
Thanks!
I added normal lenses to the cameras: http://camerasize.com/compact/#33.86,488.395,495.353,378.353,ha,t
Intersestingly The A7 is about as long with the 55/1.8 Zeiss lens as the Nikons with a 50/1.8 lens and only 200 g lighter. Adding the grip, which I think is needed to add enough stability compared to the Nikon cameras, A7 is more heavy than the Nikon Df and about the same weight as a D610.
Sony A7, even with the grip, is however not the same rip-off in price as the Nikon Df that here in my country is announced for around 1000 USD more than Nikon D800 (non E) including forced buy of kit-lens as body only option doesn’t exist.
As I am not a first adopter I will propably not buy any system camera until summer next year.
If Nikon Df had been priced between D610 and D800 or at lest not higher than D800 body only it would be number one on my list considering my collection with old Nikon glass. Now Sony A7 looks much more interesting.
The difference is indeed around 200 grams only, but still lighter and smaller. Also, the Zeiss is significantly more expensive than the Nikon 50 1.8, so the price difference is not that obvious. But I do think the Zeiss will be a better performer and some combo including the 35mm Zeiss is unbeatable in size 🙂 Horses for courses.
retro sony ff in the making?
α7c ? (C stands for Classic, given that R for Retro has been already used for Resolution) :-S
Well, I hope they won’t remove that orange ring, I like it actually.
the only thing i would like to see in future e-mount/A7 are more fast primes with aperture ring – the body is great … and i like it much more than the Df design
Why can’t Sony make a retro X-700 type camera and keep moving ahead with their roadmap. I loved the X-700s that I had. They had a good feel. My first thought with the Nikon was “This camera would be cool to carry around even if you weren’t taking photos”
DPReview: ‘As such, although I hate to say it: from a cold, hard practical point of view, I can’t shake the feeling that the Df is a little bit… silly.’
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikon-df/6
yep, and the author may be correct. i still hope that somebody i know buys it to try it out for fun
It seems to me that there are positives of both modern and older designs. And it also seems to me that Sony is hitting a pretty good balance between the 2, especially with the Nex 6 & 7 (except the menus…and a couple of hardware issues, like the movie button and much worse IMO, the rear dial that can be moved too easily) and very much especially with these new A7/A7r cameras. My initial reaction to the way they looked was a bit negative, but now having seen them in person I very much like them—clean and modern, yet just enough of an older feel to make them familiar (to those of us of a certain age. for youngsters it’s a different story).
The new Nikon on the other hand looks a little….forced. It is dramatically better looking in black than in silver, and I think that speaks to some design problems, look-wise. The multi-dials on the top look nice—but i wonder if in the 21st century that’s how we want these functions deployed.
I think Sony is on the right track with their A7/A7r. However, I’m in my late 20’s and grew up up using film. Today I do mustly travel photography in the Middle East, I’m constant adjust my ISO and I wold like for a ISO dial to be added to one of Sony’s future cameras for the sake of camera operation, not for cosmetic appeal.
They don’t need to add an ISO wheel. If the A7/A7R is anything like the NEX-7, you can customize the ISO setting to any knob/button/wheel you want. My NEX-7 is more intuitive than this crap Df.
Is it possible to set minimun shutter speed on the NEX7 in auto iso? Or does anyone know if this is possible on the A7/A7r. It is not possible on the RX1 and RX100.
I asked a Sony rep at the PDN Photo Show in NYC if it was possible to set Auto-ISO with a minimum shutter speed on the A7/R and he told me that it wasn’t. He told me that the camera defaults to 1/x where x = the focal length of the lens. He reported that the engineers at Sony have been asked to change this.
+1 Amen!
Why not, small good looking as a7
IMHO both E-mount bodies design are very good ( NEX and A7/7R ). I also like very much the modern looking A-mount bodies, although the A99 looks the best for me!
What I’d like is Sony to fix/redesign the control wheels ( front & back of the A99 ) which have a fragile feel ( too thin? ) and are rough and imprecise to turn. Every time I use them feels like they’re going to brake and/or I won’t get the setting I want!
Yes please to functionality. The hipsters can feel free to spend thousands on something “retro” all they want, there’s cameras out there for them. I’ll stick with as much useability as I can get.
I started photography with film cameras.
A camera’s form should follow function. Old cameras were not trying to be “retro” – they were just trying to be good cameras. Modern cameras should do the same. Add good controls that make sense and make photography better. Make the camera small, sleek and ergonomic. I think Sony has done a decent job with cameras like the NEX 7 and A7.
Enough with this “retro” poser nonsense.
+1
+1!
+1,000,000,000,000 !!!!!!
Actually when I read the first Nikon Df rumors, I thought – damn, right when Sony announces this great A7 which could bring the CaNikon crowd to swap to Sony, Nikon will release an A7 killer. But hey – IMHO this is nowhere near to what the CaNikon crowd wants. This is perhaps a niche camera, but it is nowhere near the potential of an A7. On top of it its even way more expensive and offers far less features. So this is just wonderfull news for Sony.
I agree. This Nikon release just makes the new Sony A7 & A7r look even better.
agreed. i was going to order an A7r, then on the same day i read about the Df. so i hold out for the Df as i have a fairly large collection of nikon lens. but….sorry nikon, that realyl didnt cut it. so A7r it is.
Many seem to like the orange mount ring. It doesn’t bother me that much but I don’t see the point of having it either. Maybe Sony could give out some shiny Full Frame stickers instead. A bit like those in the Full HD TVs. Or maybe they could sell rings with different colors as accessories.
But what about replacing the orange and silver parts in the cameras with matte dark grey metal (http://carbonfibrevinylwrap.net.au/audi-s5-matte-grey-metallic-vinyl-wrap)?
make the mount ring camo and I’ll be happy 🙂
I find the orange ring to be distracting and ostentatious. Personally I prefer everything black and discreet. I really wish Sony kept the hot shoe black like on the NEX-7 and RX1 cameras, and made the mode dial without the bright blue for “Auto”. However, I do like the small red “R” on the A7r for a touch of contrast. Otherwise, the design superb.
+1000
That orange ring is as hideous as the red dot. Nex7 is closer in the minimalism of aesthetics to the visually standard setting Leica M9P than the a7 is. A M9P will open up the heart of both the photographer and the human subject. In general an EVF hump falls into harmonious proportion only on a large body like an a7 with the grip. But on a small body, an nonintegrated EVF is like having an eye dangling over the top of your head. Just no.
just wait for the Hasseblad A7, with a big woody grip and carbon fiber look alike stickers 🙂
design should be timeless
It will be interesting to see canon’s response to the A7(R). It’s coming in the next fortnight and rumoured to be the EOS-M with the 70d sensor. I doubt it will have retro styling though.
EOS M is absolutely screwed. They brought to market too little and too late. Even the Nikon 1 is by far no real competitor to the E-mount. Canon and Nikon have overslept the swap to Mirrorless.
Not yet. I am looking forward to the M2 and the M3. :p
“the Nikon 1 is by far no real competitor to the E-mount”
+1
I used one for a couple of weeks in Europe, a year ago. Absolutely sucked, cutesy white body notwithstanding.
yes, the first M was too little too late. But the follow-up model could still be good.
I don’t know why, but the last couple of days I’ve been thinking about the M as a compact alternative mainly for filming and replacing my ixus. It might be the price, or it might be the hot-shoe being compatible with the one flash I have. I’m not really sure. I used to consider the NEX6 or 7 and I’m not sure why I’m suddenly looking at the M.
either way, the M can’t be written off just yet, just like it would have been foolish to judge Sony based on the early SLT or NEX models.
I own 5 Minolta XD7’s which i totally disassembled, cleaned, repaired and put new sealings & leather on them.
Now they look like brandnew.
For a digital Minolta XD7 – if done right – i would pay a lot of money.
XD7 was the first SLR in my hands and i just love it.
Simply the shutter noise sounds like a symphony for me.
Many moons ago, back when KM had the 7D, I wanted to see a simple, retro X-700-like DSLR. Would still like to see it if the cost is kept down.
However, knowing most of these companies, they will over-spend on the design and then charge the consumers a lot to recover cost. Case in point, Nikon Df.
No, what I think Sony should work on is refining their existing interfaces–the feel/handling and usability of those interfaces.
Besides that, I would like to have them fix their flash system. C’mon, Sony fix the goddamn thing already!
And then include a built-in intervalometer on every camera they make… only because I really like time-lapse stuff and I don’t want to use my phone to control the camera. But that’s just me. 🙂
Its has T. IT HAS T T. what Sony has T. you have to buy an adapter to get T. Haters gunna hate I know lots of people that would like this camera just like lots of people like sony camera’s. Now when is sony going to make some usable lens like Nikon? I love my NEX but I use it with all Contax and Nikon lenses. camera bodies is not how you stay in business or persuade the larger pro market.
Also, don’t rubbish the Canon EOS M system just yet. Remember, there are far more Canon users than there are Sony users. All Canon needs to do is come out with a solid performing EOS M camera and they could probably give Sony a run for the money. Sony needs to keep working on making excellent cameras and shedding their reputation of not listening to their customers (fix the damn flash, keep improving the image IQ, make more affordable, consumer-grade lenses!).
The beauty of having competition is it forces you to innovate and avoid cutting corners. Sony is now seen as an innovator but I think they need to be seen as someone that doesn’t cut corners (missing or improperly implemented features, IQ that doesn’t quite measure up with those from similar sensors from competition). Canon has the market share and the reputation (which is gradually being eroded but is still way better than Sony’s–a function of market share, perhaps), so Sony has to do a lot more work than just putting new cameras every six months.
while there are merits to retro controls, I think forcing new technology and design into a retro package defeats the purpose of innovation and shows lack of creativity and imagination
Retro=Sales
It’s not even a competitor to last week (is it already last year…) Sony announcement.
It’s a fashion statement with the Nikon logo. Will sell like crazy in store to the over 50 crowd, the one that has $$$$$. The only market left by the way.
So while the A7 will sell in thousands, the DF will in tens of thousands.
My ideal camera would be the Minolta Maxxum/Dynax 7 Film camera type body with the newest Sony FF sensor.
For me A900 is the best design. Nikon is just about cosmetics. Not offer something new. A7 is better
What about a silver Zeis Ikon Digital! With an AA filterless 24megapixel sensor. Just to show everyone who’s boss of the mirrorless world!:D http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Zeiss-Ikon-Contarex-Bullseye-35mm-SLR-Film-Camera-Body-/291007706590
I love the orange ring around the sony camera. It’s different and classy looking. Just my two cents.
Agreed.
The RX1/RX1r, A7/A7r are designed to look retro. And yes, I am a big fan as they did it without overkill!
The trouble with the DF is G lenses – if it wasn’t for the need to keep compatibility with them the DF could have had it’s controls simplified a lot. Personally though I don’t have issue with the now familiar front and back multi function scroll wheel setup, it’s fast, neat and works. For me, more dials = more stuff to get knocked accidentally and be in the wrong place at the wrong time!
i actualy like the orange paint on the mount 😀
+1
Love the orange ring! Modern
Orange ring for fullframe emount is like red ring on L-series lenses 🙂 same type of charm i think.
+1 I was thinking the same thing. I like the orange ring!
Sony’s choices of dial options are better IMHO, since it allows custom mode, while from what Df’s photo is showing, I don’t think it allows custom mode.
IMHO if you shoot in two or more different situation that requires radically different camera setting, custom mode is an absolute god send. I had that on my Canon 5DII, and I absolutely missed that when I had to use A55 and NEX-6… Hopefully I can get back to that with A7…
Df’s nice, no doubt about that, but it isn’t nice enough for me to dismiss A7… 😛
I agree. Sony could just allow you to re-map a couple modes on the dial to custom setups. I mean, do we really need Auto AND Auto+. I think one “auto” mode is enough (but, it is such a god send when handing your camera to a family member to take a picture). Also, I never use scene mode.
I think the point is not to be retro but to be as simplistic and functional as possible. That is the appeal. I have seen old styled cameras that are awful looking. And one of my favorite cameras in design is the the 5D Mark II – pure function with as little buttons as possible.
Nikon really just tried too hard. They are just bad at industrial design.
Leica is the big name when it comes to simplicity but the recent M240 shows that the balance can easily be disrupted. Personally, I think the M240 could have been simpler in design and layout. The M9-P is beautiful and excellent in design execution.
The company of recent past that came into big prominence is Fujifilm. For some reason they seem to get a lot of the design right. It is not simply because of its retro look that made them popular but the overall design philosophy of button layout and simplicity that won over big crowds.
Back to the Sony A7/A7r. I really think they did an excellent job. Hard to see how they could have made it simpler and this is appealing to me. The only thing that registers as negative is perhaps the lack of a physical shutter dial.
Back to the orange ring – I too like it. It is a branding statement that should stand out against other bodies out there and yet be somewhat subtle. I think they accomplished this. Instead of the red dot, we now have the orange ring.
Indeed, I felt they’ve tried too hard, gone overboard on a lot of stuff. Like video isn’t going to hurt anything on the still side, nor are a lot of simple conveniences that Nikon decided to throw out.
I suddenly felt that some kind of zealot (not saying it in a bad day…) might be in control of the project, and Df is the result…
I’d like the current design of Sony. It’s easy to operate and fast. I still use the classic film camera so far but easily to find that take much time to operate than Sony. Film cameras I am using now are Olympus OM 4, Minolta Alpha 7 & 9 ( like them best )and a digital Sony A-850. Sony A7r is coming up into my hand in January 2014, maybe ! 🙂
New video at Brian Smith’s website:
SONY A7/A7R: THE NEWEST TOOLS FOR PHOTOJOURNALISTS
I don’t understand how a new Nikon body is a good fit on a Sony Alpha rumor site. If I had interest in a Nikon body, well, there is a Nikon Rumor site. I hope they had some good a7 coverage there.
Design must be egronomic first before looks.
Retro or futuristic looks shouldn’t be THE buying factor.
Personally I think that the Sony A7r is more “retro” than the Nikon DF in two regards: 1) it packs full frame into a very petite body and 2) its physical controls seem more refined and simple.
I am a regular user of 35mm film cameras (still…) and have been waiting for a compact digital camera to arrive that would let me use my Nikon manual focus lenses as a backup/alternative to my F6 & FA. My initial reaction to the A7r and DF has me leaning more towards the Sony offering at this point.
The ability to use my M42 and Leica M lenses as well is a bonus!
Is the outer size of the sensor similar sizes? Or is it an opticali lllusion? To my untrained eyes, it feels the two cameras are not shown at proper scale, and the A7r is even smaller than the picture shows.
I think the scale is correct: what you see is just the mirror.. so the sensor behind it will be slightly bigger
“I would like Sony to … to improve further a more modern design – 51%”
Luckily, common sense has prevailed.
Best thing about Df is the fact that it made retro uncool. There is hope!
Orange paint on the mount ring is for me beautiful design move. I realy like that on my camera.
“A full-frame mirrorless camera in a mini F3 body with Wifi and movies? Now that’s something I’d go for and I suspect I’m not alone. But a full-frame DSLR that’s barely smaller than a D610 and lacking many features most of us now take for granted? That’s a much harder sell in today’s market.”
(Gordon Laing, Cameralabs.com)
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_Df/
A7 is already retro with the hump.
This MIGHT be just a hipster rig, we won’t know until we know the price and read some good reviews.
Given the expected price, it should be, in general, “at least as good” as anything else in that price range–different, of course, but “at least as good” in a general sense.
Since it seems seriously crippled in some ways–lower MP, no video, no pivoting screen, etc.–it should make up for it in other ways. It does this in terms of, I think, battery life, fps(?), iso(?), even though I’m not sure about the last 2 versus other cameras costing the same.
I would expect the difference to be made up in durability, weather sealing, and serviceability, and especially in useability. Those dials are expensive compared to push buttons, but do they lead to a better camera, as implemented on this new Nikon? We won’t know for a while.
The A7 design is absolutely gorgeous compared to the Nikon. Clean lines, references to retro design without being tacky, really, a job well done Sony. I absolutely love it and will sell my Nikon DSLR and f/2.8 zooms to buy the A7.
Sony please make the viewfinder on the side like nex 7 and quieter shutter. Those makes sense on a compact ff camera like a7/r
this looks retarded. nikon just gave a bad look on the “retro”. big fat and ugly.
if we are talking about retro,bury it forever, aesthetics and look. the only important part is the manual settings should be modernized. not just becausse of the old look. touchscreen dont belong on pro cameras/video.
Retro is nice, until it gets in the way of functionality. What’s good about retro are the dedicated dials, and the small body and lenses. However, the following are not cool:
* lack of ISO dial (or button + dial)
* lack of auto ISO where you can configure minimum shutter speed
* PC sync cap that you can lose
Going retro just for the sake of nostalgia doesn’t make a better camera. Especially because Nikon marketing is pushing old MF lenses, yet they lack the split prism, or any other MF assist. I’m a Nikon D800 user, by the way, but also own an NEX-5N, because I love the combination of small camera, focus peaking, with old classic lenses. The Nikon Df is neither small, nor does it have the MF assist, so it’s only retro in terms of the dials. But adjusting shutter speed in full stops, and not having an ISO dial is a step back with no reason.
I wanted to buy a rangerfinder design camera like fuji x-pro1 .. But I think if sony took a step in this way it will lose the Sony Style.
I love retro cameras but I love sony style in everything .. From HDTVs to memory cards
Sony should stay sony and never look back