A trusted source just told me that “the pre-ordered quantities are almost 200% bigger than expected by Sony“. That’s great news! It means they already sold triple as expected! Now imagine how much more they could sell with a rangefinder designed version (NEX-7 alike).
And now a new review:
CameraLabs (Click here) published the full Sony A7r review. And I like that first part of their conclusions:
“I’ll cut straight to the chase: the Sony Alpha A7r is one of the most impressive and exciting cameras I’ve ever tested. This is a camera which delivers the quality of the Nikon D800e in a body which weighs half as much and costs almost one third less….most high-end photographers I speak to cite the absence of full-frame models with AF as what’s holding them back from dumping their DSLRs and adopting mirrorless. Well Sony’s now removed that barrier with not one but two full-frame mirrorless bodies.”
Obviously the camera gets the “Highly Recommended” mark 🙂
—
Specs and Preorders in US and Canada:
Dedicated Sony announcement page at Amazon US (Click here).
Sony A7r body at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS. TheCameraStore Canada.
Sony A7 body at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS. TheCameraStore Canada.
Sony A7 with 28-70mm kit lens at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS. TheCameraStore Canada.
Sony RX10 at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Zeiss 24-70mm at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Zeiss 35mm at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Zeiss 55mm at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
70-200mm A-mount at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Sony A-Mount to E-Mount Lens Adapter at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto.
Sony A to E adapter with mirror at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto.
A7/A7r leather case at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
A7/A7r vertical grip at Amazon, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Sony W Series Battery Charger at Amazon, BHphoto.
Sony FA-CS1M Off-Camera Shoe at BHphoto.
Semi-Hard LCD Screen Protector for A7-A7r at Amazon, BHphoto.
Specs and Preorders in Europe:
Sony A7r body at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE.
Sony A7 body at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE, Amazon UK, Amazon DE, Amazon FR.
Sony A7 with 28-70mm kit Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE, Amazon UK, Amazon DE, Amazon FR.
Sony RX10 at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE.
Zeiss 35mm at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT,
Zeiss 55mm at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT
Zeiss 24-70mm at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, SE, PT
Asia:
A7r at Digitalrev.
A7 at Digitalrev, Amazon Cina.
A7 with 28-70mm lens at Digitalrev.
164 Responses
Read the Cameralabs review: The camera is stellar in some ways, but serious drawbacks are sluggish AF and lack of in-body image stabilization (IBIS).
Being the first in a new system, as for many others, the concept is half baked. Especially I think IBIS is essential for such light and high megapixel combination. Being a D800 owner, the heft of the camera and the subsequent ergonomic makes it easier to hold the camera steady. Still you need fast shutter speed/tripod to get a sharp image.
I´ll wait for a Sony iteration with IBIS – then, only then I will switch from D800 to Sony Ax. The concept is excellent and soon also the implementation will be I am sure.
I would not wait for it.
As with Nikon and Canon, Sony has opted for stabilization in lens.
Also it is a “first” in certain terms. The RX1 is the same concept as this one but without the fixed lens. So the A7s are more an evolution of that concept.
Maybe you are right – the Zeiss 24-70 may be the perfect combo with the A7r. Will wait for review of that lens!
They leave ibis out to sell A6 & A6r with ibis in 2 years, and to sell SEL lenses.
I don’t think it’s going to happen any time soon otherwise they wouldn’t have bothered releasing oss lenses.
You might not have the weight of canon/nikon DSLRs but also have no mirror slap. The shutter speeds you can get away with remains to be seen.
Admin have you heard any rumors along these lines?
I know you’ve been looking into the new A7 variations coming out in 2014
This is my biggest concern, That I’ll get the camera in Dec and then in Feb they’ll release an IBIS version and make all future lenses without IBIS after the 2 already announced. Leaving early adopters with only a couple of IS lenses
+ agree
“Still you need fast shutter speed/tripod to get a sharp image.” – this is what most of the people don’t realise, everybody just sees megapixels, there’s a reason why most of the MF digital is on tripod. If you want to have camera with high mp count you need to be able to get most out of it which means: forget cheap lenses, look for a good tripod
+1
+1
+1
-1 what people dont get is that 36mp dont hurt! you can make the exact same pictures as with 4mp but if you want it you use a tripod and have the 36mp
And if you want that 4mp camera to give better results, put it no a tripod, too.
And no matter what system you have, you should use the best system available. Because the 135 format will look good even if you use lenses that 20 years ago were the best available… why wouldn’t it?
oops, I meant you should use the best lenses available to get bestest results
there is something wrong with the fear of the 36 mpix. just don’t look at the picture in the 100 % view. take for example the A7 and the A7r make a picture handheld and print this in a certain common size. do you think the A7r is more shaken due to the fsct it could resolve the picture better? maybe in 100 % view but not in real life. so don’t be afraid, go out and shoot, most of your lenses will never resolve the 36 mpix, so stay relax 🙂
+1. camera shake doesn’t icrease with megapixels, magnification 1:1 does!
Yup, and there’s also these, copy pasted from my post at the bottom 😀
A7r even with 36mp still have a larger pixel pitch then the 24mp NEX 7, so wouldn’t this issue that many reviewers seem to be having, applies to the NEX 7 or any 24mp APSC camera as well?
I agree with you, but I would get high resolution camera only if I wanted to print large 😉 otherwise it’s a bit of waste
I know many people were hoping for IBIS on the A7/A7r and I guess I’m the ‘odd man out’ who is glad that it does not have IBIS.
My understanding is that OSS (although more costly) is:
a) more effective – especially with longer lenses, and in low light
b) provides better IQ / metering (especially in low light)
Granted I plan to shoot stills far more than video, and (eventually) use native lenses more than legacy lenses.
I guess everyone who really want IBIS is really planning on primarily using legacy glass??
Your understanding is incorrect: IBIS.has no _general_ disadvantage against OSS.
With long tele lenses IBIS has to fight harder, but OSS has, too. And Olympus’ IBIS works well with tele lenses.
On the other hand, OSS can decrease the border image quality noticable. And it adds constraints to the lens design and potentially an additional element, which may degrade the image quality of the lens. Thus, top end fix focal lenses typically have no OSS.
Ideally, a system should have both: OSS in lenses where it fits well with the lens design, and IBIS for all other lenses. Of course, IBIS then needs to shut off when OSS is engaged.
However, I have serious doubts that the small E-mount will allow a good IBIS implementation … it will probably not allow much sensor movement without shadowing by the mount.
So do current cameras apply different types of IBIS based on the lens that is attached?
I know that’s long been touted as an advantage for OSS – OSS is specifically built and based on the unique properties of each individual lens design. Maybe IBIS has caught up in that regard? I haven’t kept current with the IBIS tech.
Also, what about metering on IBIS cameras? Doesn’t the meter receive an ‘unstabilized’ somewhat jittery image that can result in exposure that isn’t as good as one from an OSS lens?
The OSS element of course needs to be integrated in and thus must be specially designed for the lens design, as it is part of the lens optics, but that’s no reason for It working any better than an IBIS. In opposite, the need (or wish) to integrate an optical stabilisation element in a lens design, and the typical preference for this element to be as small and leightweight as possible for best movability, is one more constraint for the optics designer. And the more contraints, the more compromises are needed.
OSS developments have a much longer heritage, so in general it is a more refined technology than the younger IBIS technology. Thus, most IBIS implementations are slightly inferior to most OSS. But latest since Olympus’ excellent OM-D E5 IBIS the gap has been closed.
The light metering is not done per pixel, but per zones with many pixels per zone. If you are jittering that much that metering would be influenced, no OSS or IBIS could stabilize that :-). Also, IBIS can (and should) already stabilize during composing and metering. Not for the meter, but for your composing, and for the autofocus.
@BeeJee – Interesting. Thanks!!
With Olympus’s 5 axis IBIS, it actually outperforms OSS and also provides additional axis of stabilization. Now that Sony is working with Olympus, implementation of IBIS would outperform Sony’s implementation of OSS.
Also, OSS is the one that decreases image quality compared to IBIS, unless you are talking about keeping stabilization on when using the camera on a tripod. In that use case, IBIS on can cause the image to be not as sharp, so it’s best to turn it off.
I wonder why CanNikon haven’t switched to IBIS… at least with their new lens mounts (M, and 1)?
You’re not the odd one out. I also prefer not having IBIS.
Sony have made the decision to go OSS.
There seems to be an assumption that future and higher-end e-mount cameras will have IBIS, but I think it is VERY far from certain.
I’m happy to be proved wrong, but I just don’t think IBIS will happen.
This.
First, in my opinion, the camera is not light weight – it does have some heft to it – it feels very solid.
Even though the shutter is loud, I was very surprised at how little (pretty much none) vibration you could feel from the shutter.
I felt very comfortable hand holding it at slow speeds while I was playing with it at Photo Plus Expo in NYC.
Judging from some of the reviews of the Nikon 800e, it takes a tripod to really get the most out of the resolution, and it may be the same for the a7r, but I doubt very much that it will be worse, in fact, I expect it might even be better hand holding than the 800e.
Hopefully this won’t cause supply problems, but knowing Sony it won’t.
Imagine what the orders would be like if they released fast F1.4 lenses. Sure the FF barrier is now removed but there wouldn’t be any barriers for DSLR owners to switch if Sony fixed that problem. Sony lack of enthusiasm in this respect is having a damning effect and holding it back. Victory is right in front of Sony’s face but it can’t see it.
Double the expected numbers sounds like a victory already 🙂
+1
I think Sony has made the right choice.
Actually, 200% more than expected means 4x their expectations. (100% more than expect would be double, etc.) So even better news!
Triple, I would think since it is supposed to be the incremental increase over expectations
Expressions such as “200% more than” are meaningless. It could mean “200% of” (i.e. twice) or “300% of” (i.e. three times). Why do people persist in misusing percentages when there are simple unambiguous expressions such as “twice” or “three times” or “1.5 times”?
It is the word “more” that causes the problems.
My guess is that pre-orders are twice what they expected, which is nice if too many are not cancelled. I see some of the first day buyers in Korea were planning to sell the cameras at a profit to impatient would-be owners.
Depends if Sony had low expectations. I just know when manufactures like Fuji enter the market with a FF equivalent of it’s X system Sony will have very stiff competition. I just get the feeling Fuji’s target market is serious photographers and they know what they want. Sony heard the cry of an ICL RX1. However the appeal of the RX1 was the small size AND fast lens. Sony seems to think the success of the RX1 was more to do with the 35mm sensor & size rather than the whole package (FF sensor, fast lens, reasonable compact). Sony would be better off adding a little more size to the lenses so the system could go toe to toe with DSLR’s. Right now other than maybe the landscape genre it can’t, and it won’t be able to for years, and by then Fuji will likely have their solution. As their X200 is supposed to have stabilisation, something Sony doesn’t have.. Sony doesn’t have the luxury of coasting now.
@admin: “Now imagine how much more they could sell with a rangefinder designed version (NEX-7 alike).”
Is these sentece casual or intentional becouse of comming Infos? 😀
I prefer high quality optics for an EVF vs. compromises for ‘style’
These are cameras, not fashion accessories. (Unless you are Hasselblad)
“Range finder style” is one of the most misused terms on sites like these and by people who haven’t even held a range finder in their hands. It simply refers to the flat/brick design of camera bodies… which is different to designs having protruding grips, prisms and mirror boxes.
Range finders aren’t the only cameras that were made in this shape. In fact a lot of point and shoots both digital and film plus disposable cameras look closer to modern “rangefinder style” cameras than rangefinders which have very distinctive multiple windows in the front.
couldn’t agree more and if i remember correctly this all started with Fuji and their X100 and X-Pro1 -> those were the cameras which were called rangefinder styled due to optical viewfinder and NEX was always called compact camera system.
I am also for top EVF but I really don’t need that huge LCD. The camera could also be longer (and therefore not so tall because the Hump)
Except that the DSLR shape was a compromise, because of a mirror box and prism, things that hadn’t been needed during the pre 1970’s, when the leica became popular. No, its the A7 that is the compromise… a frankenstein camera for people whose design ethos favors the “Canyonero” from the Simpson’s.
Many people think the DSLR style is only for retro design, but in fact it is very functionaly too. The optics of the EVF is better and larger then that of the Nex 7. The LCD is larger too. Look at hhe back of the A7 and you see there is no space for an EVF . So Sony could do a few things:
1. not using an EVF at all (makes the camera less attractive to many people)
2. place the EVF at the side of the LCD, (makes the camera wider and so less attractive to many)
3. Make the camera higher over the total width(makes it taller and heavier and so less attractive)
4. Use smaller LCD&EVF (makes the camera less attractive)
So maybe the DSLR style is not as bad as it looks at first sight.
These could be solved by simply making the camera bigger, no need for an SLR shape. But, I do agree, having a bigger camera with a proper grip makes perfect sense.
+1. comparing the backs of the cameras, I think Sony nailed it. The hump is annoying, but the taller screen is a huge plus.
i bet sony will launch RX2 with viewfinder style liked in nex-7 😀 everybody will more love it 😀
It would be great!
+1
Sony, shut up and take my money!
I don’t get that. I think the NEX cameras are terribly ugly.
Read the full review last night, and in my opinion is to Olympus centric (Gordon’s personal camera is OMD EM-5) I don’t think it’s fair, to either camera, to compare 4/3 sensor to FF
Hi CMM, I hope you still found my review useful. I think it’s completely fair to compare it to M4/3 as a lot of people will be considering upgrading to an A7 / A7r from M4/3, or will be wondering how models like the EM1 fit into the picture – and as I concluded, despite or even because of its smaller sensor I believe the EM1 is a better rounded general purpose camera. But I was still extremely impressed by the A7 and A7r and can recommend them to anyone who really wants a full-frame in a smaller package. But personally speaking I would miss the builtin IS, touch screen and fast AF not to mention the M4/3 lenses to make the switch myself.
Having done this job for 20 years any bias has also long gone. I’ve owned cameras by pretty much all of the big names and many of the smaller ones too. They all have their pros and cons and the important thing is not to get the most impressive but the one which best fits your personal needs right now. My job is to explain the pros and cons to help people make the right choice.
I’ll also be adding comparisons against the 5D3 and D800e on the verdict page later today, along with more images.
Gordon
but waht aobut the people that are upgrading from a APS-C? or from P&S? I don’t really find that comparision usefull at all. (But I like to thank you for your review 🙂 )
ups! “what about” should be, sorry
thanks for the work Gordon.
I have to say that I totally agree with you. Mostly the people that shoot M43s do it not because of the size of the sensor but for the weight practicality.
If Sony can position a well specked camera such as the A7 in the price range of an EM1 then many people, not all, will for sure have some head scratching to do before choosing.
I am more or less on the same boat. Would never carry a D800 but now with the A7r I am wondering where should I go. 🙂
Gordon I’m a very big fan of your work, and fair, grounded points of view. Your take on the AF came as a half surprise, and the reports I’ve had on a French Sony dedicated board from people having played with the camera at the recent Salon de la Photo in Paris last week were quite positive and encouraging… So I don’t know quite what to make of this paradox here.
I have one on pre-order (delivered in 4 days if all goes well), so I don’t have long to find out. Thank you for your great work.
I think I agree. If one is invested heavily in M43 it would be tough to leave even for the A7 or A7r.
One question I have for your Gordon, with respect to getting sharp images using legacy lenses, which route would be the better option:
a) a 50mm (for example) legacy on a stabilized M4/3 sensor
b) a 50mm legacy on an unstabilized A7/r sensor using the higher ISOs and shutter speeds that the larger sensor would allow
Didn’t you just +1 the tripod answer??
I think shutter speeds and tripods are two of the most important factors in getting sharp images.
But I’m not ‘up to speed’ on the latest and greatest advances in IBIS – so it would be interesting to hear Gordon’s opinion, and *to what degree* they compare (I’m sure there are some technical specs and math involved)
I think the FF + higher shutter will give you more than M4/3 +IBIS (all other things being equal) but would like to be corrected if I’m wrong.
Mars: Focal length would be a huge factor too, right? For 50mm and wider, IBIS isn’t a big deal in my opinion. But I’m not a perfectionist when it comes to sharpness to begin with.
Imho, Olympus benefits from an already developed system and the fact that some features are more easily developed from a smaller sensor. When Sony’s new line becomes more properly developed, I think the two systems will be rather complementary. I would certainly be interested in owning both.
Very happy for Sony but I don’t know how this is good for people who pre-ordered. Also wonder how many folks in USA have pre-ordered it just to try and return… ugh
And after having a look at the low light video samples, you are told how much better the 5D MkIII video is compared to both Sony and Nikon. Not a word said about how inferior the dynamic range of the Canon is. Just look at the samples and see how the wall lamps just turns into blobs on the 5D clip. A rather poor “review” by cameralabs IMHO.
The problem is most people, including dxomark, dont know how to measure dynamic range properly.
If video is your primary concern, have you had a look at 5D3 raw video samples?
And user local genius genotypewrite knows it.
LOL dude. These guys from DxO are among best competent in the field of computational photography. And you: incompetent or just fool.
Im not even going to bother to explain because it’s just beyond you. Stay in school and one day you might learn something LOL
completely disagree, DXOMark measurements are off-sensor -> it means f**k all in real life and they measure only stuff they support with their SW
“it means f*ck all”
Only if you have no idea how to interpret their data and realize they are part of the equation, not the full equation.
@ Zohee35 -> I have very clear idea how to interpret them but I also know limitations of those measurements and I would always take them with the pinch of salt. Definitely wouldn’t consider DXOMark’s measurements as deciding factor for a purchase of a camera.
Well then, that’s quite a different statement from “means f*ck all”.
If you know who designed the sensor and who implemented it (camera brand) and how the cameras meter compared to middle grey, the measurements can actually give a pretty close prediction of quite of few visible key parameters of RAW image quality and vice versa. At least that has been my experience the past years.
nope, standing by my statement, as noted “Definitely wouldn’t consider DXOMark’s measurements as deciding factor for a purchase of a camera.” – which means that those mean absolutely f**k all to me 😉 /nt
@geno
I studied math and very doubt your competence is high enough even to cause signs of confusement for me. Just saying.
So, mr genius, describe your model.
I’m with @emacs. My degree is in physics, and I understand what DXOmark is measuring, how they are doing it and what it means in practice. Those who dismiss such sound methodology as irrelevant as it’s just measuring the sensor and has no relationship to image quality and seem to think there’s some magical property that can’t be measured have to face the fact that semiconductor sensors are engineered products that used objectively defined criteria in all of the design and manufacturing processes. Without such engineering approaches, semiconductor sensors wouldn’t even exist, yet alone approach the theoretical limits (some sensors are getting fairly close to these).
Of course, the sensor alone is far from the complete story when it comes to capturing an image. There’s the lens (and it’s interaction with the lens), image processing and a whole series of issues about camera ergonomics before we even get into subjective issues. However, DXOmark do not pretend that their sensor measurements tell you anything more than what the basic sensor performance is for the tests they perform. But one thing is true – the IQ can’t be better than the fundamental constraint of the sensor.
As for @genotypewriter, then his/her unwillingness (or inability) to define exactly what’s wrong with DXOmark methodology and pass it off with “you just wouldn’t understand” is, frankly, just bluster.
I would like if there was a RAW available to see and be able to compare the files they used for their sensor test. Also it would be good if they mentioned what lens they used for the sensor test as I doubt their tests are without a lens.
@emacs and steve jones:
Maths is taught from grade 1. So it doesn’t mean anything when you say you have studied it ROFL… like I said, complete school first.
Also I’d slap anyone who was responsible for teaching manners to you two. If you want someone to teach you something, ask them nicely. It’s not my obligation to give you the education you never received. Email me if you’re dying to know.
Oh they do know. It’s sad that there’s no objective way of implementing the visual effect of banding into their DR measurements, because as of now, the measured numbers actually do Canon favors, compared to real life usable DR.
Banding is a part of additive noise and dxo methodics take care of it, with the condition of SNR being higher than a certain value.
@ Emacs:
Last time I checked, they said they quantify noise, but don’t do quality measurements regarding (repeating) patterns. If camera A and B both have the same SNR, B can still be wildly more visually inferior when the accounted noise shows visual patterns like banding.
@Zohee35, got it. You mean noise can be more or less disturbing based on its pattern (banding, color noise is more disturbing than luminance, etc). Well, I guess NR can treat banding properly based on profile (stronger one in places where it appears) and some denoisers even provide this functionality (Topaz Denoise, for instace), but, grantly, it cannot be measured properly indeed in 1D scale what SNR is.
BTW, I think canon goes too far with its hopeless attempt to catch Sony’s or Toshiba’ sensor high ISO performance (Nikon, Pentax, Sony itself) making their color filter less thick and thus ruining color separation to the extent I was shockingly displeased playing with 5d3 RAW files after testing this camera compared to the output of my NEX-5n. It turned out Sony/Toshiba is still ahead in noise department (not too much though) but destroy canon’s in everything else by a large margin.
We can use entropy though for this measurement.
The following procedure seems to be adequate enough: first, we need to estimate certain point noise response for the scene. It can be done in different ways, although this one is certainly very reliable: take this scene and make series of shots (I₁, I₂, I₃,…, Iₙ). Then consider clean image is μI – median of I. It means for each pixel p we take pixels p₁, p₂, …, pₙ, sort this sequence and take one in the center as the actual value. This should give relatively clean image.
Then consider the difference ΔI=I-I’, where I’ is one of I₁, I₂, …
Let δ is threshold value and we make N={1 if |p|>δ and 0 otherwise | p∊ΔI} – noise map. We call point P «noisy» if N(P)=1. Next we build directions map: for each point Q=(x,y) in N, where N(Q)=1 we take noisy points Q₁=(x₁,y₁), Q₂=(x₂,y₂), Q₃=(x₃,y₃), …
Let Ω(Q) = {(x-x₁,y-y₁), (x-x₂,y-y₂), (x-x₃,y-y₃), …}. We can compute main directions of these vectors via PCA, for example. Let Σ(Q)={∠v₁,∠v₂} – relative angles towards (1,0) for these main directions. Then we do this for every noisy point R₁,R₂,…. Then Σ=Σ(R₁)⋃Σ(R₂)⋃Σ(R₃)⋃…
Next we can compute entropy. Banding noise should lead to lower entropy value than a random one.
Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal_component_analysis
We can use scalar product and inner product of vectors to find the relative angle. We also can restrict ourselves to only angle values that refers to the movement on the right (take -v₁ instead of v₁ if v₁ directs to the left). Well, that is it.
To my knowledge, the best debanding tools are Topaz Denoise and Nik Dfine, and neither does a very effective job with the banding found in 7D, 5DMKIII or even 1DX files. It becomes only marginally less obtrusive in some cases, but these tools appear far more effective on casual (lower frequency) banding found at higher ISO’s from cameras in general, rather than the higher frequency and more pronounced banding found in Canon cameras at low ISO.
“Now imagine how much more they could sell with a rangefinder designed version (NEX-7 alike).”
Almost none.
There is no legacy APSC lenses around that can be given a second chance.
So the market space for such a camera would be zero to none.
-1,000,000 Completelly disagree 🙁
Admin is not referring to the sensor size (APSC), he is saying FF camera in NEX-7 design. You need to visit SAR more often.
I read the comment from FormerlyE wrong…
-1. Seems like you are new to the site. Try commenting again in two years when you get caught up.
200% more? That’s very encouraging.
“Now imagine how much more they could sell with a rangefinder designed version (NEX-7 alike).”
Style over substance. 🙁 What is the big deal? Let them design a camera with a quiet shutter for starters.
I hope they will also update FW promptly when needed. A first curtain e shutter would be nice, for example. 🙂
Any idea how many FE lenses they selling? It is not a surprise their tiny bodies are in demand.
For some, visual coherence of their tool is a bonus.
The A7 EVF fails on these counts.
i. EVF hump works best on square bodies. To a lesser extent on vertical bodies.
ii. The visual area of the EVF hump should be between 5-7% of the body area.
Personally, the EVF irks me more than the shutter sound, more so because photography for me is a visual field.
Sony tried to familiarize A7 to the Olympus crowd. Hopefully, the next FF will have it’s own inspiring and modern design bloodline like a clean A7 or the NEX7 FF.
Well, in general I also favor the NEX 6/7 design style, both for the looks as also for more space for my nose. It seems, however, that the A7’s EVF optics are noticably better and (to achieve that) also noticably larger than the ones of the NEX 6 and 7. From the specs and first reviews, the A7’s EVF is not only of excellent quality, but also very good to use with glasses. And at such size it might really look better with this hump than in the corner. Overall, I find the A7 looking well balanced.
I’m not sure why people keep talking about the electronic first curtain. Sony reps in videos about the A7r have said why it doesn’t have an electronic first curtain. Also, the shutter is still quieter than a DSLR. That’s a win in my mind.
What is not told is that the D800’s sensor was not developed with e first curtain shutter. LOL.
Well if it was not developed with one, and it doesn’t have one, I don’t see your point.
200% is somewhat misleading due to those certain ppl placing multiple preorders at the big three retailers in US.
Yep, likely 20-30% of these preorders will be canceled.
When the D800 was first released people were ordering 3 at a time from different retailers just so they could be the first on the block to have one.
Unfortunately that just made delivery longer, Nikon was rushed and QC, ie left focus issue suffered.
Bummer 🙁 I was a late preorder, so I hope that means I get my camera some time this year!!
That said, I’m surprised at the “slow AF” comments at CameraLabs, considering the Youtube videos I’ve seen of the A7r and A7 autofocus seemed quite snappy, and not nearly as slow as “DSLR Live view”.
Did you miss METABONES adaptor?
actually, what they are saying is that the preorders are 3 times what they expected, not that the sales are 3 times the expected. I’m sure they expect to sell cameras even after the preordered units have been delivered.
they did hit an unexpected home run though, didn’t they? I’d buy one if I had the money
wow this is great and not so good at the same time…..
200% as epxected pre-orders means w ewill not be able to buy it free in stores before September hopefully in 2014…
200% over estimates makes sense if you consider many people likely double ordered to help assure they get a copy in the first allocation.
Great. I’m happy this is the case. It means Sony will continue to innovate an strive to provide clearly define products from the competition, allowing us, end users, to have access to gear that otherwise would have remained in the traditional mold.
Congrats to the Sony engineers that came up with these cameras. They should be drinking Crystal today.
+1 well said
Imagine how many camera Sony would sell if they instituted an upgrade path for the next camera with all the fixes! It’s early, a little wishful thinking never heard anybody.
Ok, I’m curious about this blurred image and need tripod thing, the A7r even with 36mp still have a larger pixel pitch then the 24mp NEX 7, so wouldn’t this issue that many reviewers seem to be having, applies to the NEX 7 or any 24mp APSC camera as well?
Noob reviewer,low experience.
Anyone and everyone is writing a review with links to various vendors…
So you’re implying that they do that to promote other vendors?
Absolutely not! Just check the links to buy on these “reviews”. Of course, dpreviews are owned by amazon themselves.
Absolutely! A lot of reviewers and users have said the same thing about the NEX-7. It is hard to get maximum image quality from the camera. It demands very nice lenses (and/or stopped down) and good technique (tripod & steady hand). What surprises me is how much of a concern it is for the A7r when the pixel pitch is at least as big as the 5&6! I hear nothing about putting those on tripods but I suppose with these super-high MP people get more critical.
+1. And its not like your images get blurrier, you just increase magnification on screen, thats all. The whole thing has gone bananas. As has the: “you need better lenses” BS. More pixels doesn’t make your existing line of lenses any worse. More MP give you THE OPTION to take EVEN MORE advatage of better optics.
It gets more interesting when you add legacy lenses to the mix:
Group A : Go for the A7 cause the 24mp would be better for older glasses since the A7r 36mp would show all the flaws and make your lens be less sharp.
Group B : B*itch pls, the no AA/OLPF filter on a 36mp would show your legacy lens true potential over the with AA filter A7. And the whole thing that you’ll need new lenses to make use of the 36mp is just BS.
So which group are you? 😛
I may only hope that the NEX/Alpha/Minolta team will be given another chance to make FF CSC body but I’m not so sure anymore. So far every time they could make it resources went to the Cybershot department. That was with RX1, same seems to be with A7 now.
Where did you get the information that the A7/r was developed by the Cybershot team?
If I remeber correcty, Sony reps said the teams are actually merging. Aren’t they said to have done so for the a7(r) at least?
Yes indeed we are told so. Cybershot is a dying department, it is doomed like all similar departments in other companies. The point is that CS *is* Sony, a part of the clan. They can’t die. They make ‘heroic’ attempts now to survive, using backdoors to their bosses. After the last “unification”, “restructuring” and “optimization” CS took over the brand Alpha, an E mount, access to the premium interchangeable glass, and a lucky number “7” which has always been a brand name too, de facto. As a triumph of that success story they finally released A99/D800E without AF and the mirror — exactly what was expected at the time of NEX-6/VG-900 but did not happen. Good products, no complains, but lack imagination.
Hope that there will really be a NEX 7 styled FF camera, by then I may upgrade
I guess that if Sony makes a NEX7-FF it will not have EVF. It would be more like a NEX5-FF. I bet for Sony trying to make the smallest FF camera. Making a NEX7-FF, unless it had IBIS, it would not differentiate from the A7/A7r.
Or it could have an EVF but it wont have the 3 glass system that the A7/r or A99 has, it would probably be a 1 tier lower then the A7/r cause I recall in the interview regarding the guy who designed the A7/r that they considered the A7/r as the flagship line for FE mount.
Mmm maybe you recall it wrong since there is no FE-Mount… it’s E-Mount no matter if FF or APS-C. FE is the designation for the E-Mount lenses with FF image circle.
Yeah, there’s no FE mount, just E mount, guess I should use FF E mount term to denote Full Frame E mount camera then just FE mount.
Regardless if Sony do release a rangefinder styled FF NEX 7, it’ll likely won’t have the 3 glass EVF and prolly will have some compromises on the controls since they’ll need to make some compromises to make it 1 tier lower then their E mount flagship, the A7/r
Makes sense. But it is Sony, they always do things that doesn’t make sense……
I Will buy a FF e-mount when it includes IBIS.
If Sony remove the NEX branding doesn’t that makes next NEX7 impossible as they all will be name a* so A7 already took the 7 name. and if they name it a8 it would sound like it’s more expensive then the a7. a6 should be reserved to the NEX6 and a5 is for NEX5. So basically a7 is NEX7 successor no?
Nope, Sony specifically said that the A7 is not the NEX-7 successor. I assume they will simply fuse the NEX-6 and NEX-7 and have it at the former’s price point.
a6 could mean it’s nex6 successor as well. Or maybe they can name it a6-7
a6.5?
Why does everybody think the APS E-mount cametas will be named Ax it could be that they will be named Axxxx or Axxx…
And that the FF E-mount cameras could be named ax, So the RF styled FF camera could be named A5 (no EVF ) and A6 (rf style with EVF) both will have the smaller LCD like the Nex range, and an EVF like the Nex 6. Just a guess….
If Sony follows the current pattern then the NEX line in ILCE terms so far will mean the NEX 7 successor will be the A7000. But their naming is all messed up.
Gordon is pointing out that for him the OMD is a better fit for what and how he shoots due to faster autofocus, IBIS and the touchscreen, things Sony, IMO, except maybe the touch screen, should have made better and included in this initial relase, and now that they missed that opportunity, should strive to make better/implement for future releases. The sensor size and image quality are not the only factors to considered. I will stick with my a900 and a99 due to SSS inside and incomparable A-mount Zeiss Prime lineup. I believe losing the SSS would take away from the greater ability for low light hand held shooting. Without SSS the a7 or a7r with new FE Zeiss 55 f/1.8 will not beat either the a900 or a99 and Zeiss 50mm f1.4 or 85mm f/1.4 (or 135mm f/1.8 for that matter) for handheld low light shooting. So, like GL sticking with his OMD, I will be sticking with the a900 and a99, as they give me more options even though in the studio the a7 and a7r may be better for image quality and critical evaluation and obviously due to their smaller size. However, on those points the a900 and a99 are no slouches in studio and the a99 is not that heavy (even with the 70-400 attached). Cheers to Sony, but the a7 and a7r are certainly not one camera solutions for both the studio and the field w/o a tripod, IMO. And I will take either my a900 or a99 with the Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 over either the a7 or a7r with the FE 35mm f/2.8, FE 55mm f1.8, or forthcoming 24-70mm f/4 with OSS for low light hand held shooting. Those are some comparisons I would like to see someone make and publish.
I have all the same camera’s but I still might pick up an a7 or a7r just so I can use my M-Mount lenses in digital. IBIS is awesome and I love it but an adjustment in shooting style can easily compensate for it, especially on lens with a shorter focal length than 85.
After playing with the a7 and a7r, neither is as good as the a99. It’s not even close. But just because they aren’t is good doesn’t make them a bad purchase even for a99 owners.
200% of what, we cant let this number mean anything since original expectations could have been ‘unrealistically low’ in the first place either by design to be be able to create these higher percentages or a bad bit of market research…
There is not a camera out there that doesn’t have a few issues or personal desires, EM1 equals poor video. The A7’s look to be spectacular cameras and I have the ‘R’ on order up from my EM1 and the RX10 for my wife, yes a touch screen would have been closer to the perfect camera for me.. Changing camera is not always the big deal it used to be, the market through e-bay works just fine to regain some of our investment as we chase around for the perfect camera…
I was sure somebody will spin that number to mean nothing.
WILL WORK FINE WITH 24MM 1.8 NEX?
AND LAE2 AND 85CZ 1.4?
Those will work, but only in crop mode.
Crop the 85mm is fine… but crop de 24mm. I need wide angle for small and dark places…. for a wedding.
Lol who’s wedding you attending? A couple of bats?
Good News is Sony earn more money, so they have more money to research & developing better camera.
Bad News is Sony E-mount Mirrorless camera sell much better than their A-mount DSLR camera.
In order to max. their profit, Sony will definitely put more resources on E-mount than A-mount.
Because their A-mount camera always sell less than they expected.
Of course 200% because I ordered it twice and will cancel the preorder that arrives second.
WHY?
Need to be the first on the block to have one?
Not everyone thought same as you. In my country limit pre-order by 1.
I preordered the a7r and the two Zeiss lenses. I also ordered the Olympus Om-d E-m1. That should arrive today, damn signature required. I plan on testing them both out for a bit and selling the one I like the least. There is the possibility the I keep both, but I’m hoping one will be a distinct favorite. I’m in the process of getting rid of my new-7 and 6 and the e-mount lenses that I have for it. I figure if I keep the a7r, I only want full frame lenses and not crop mode lenses.
Just got a reply from Sony UK saying they are expecting to dispatch the A7R on the 21st, but still have no idea when the FE 35mmf2.8 will be available.
mid December 😉
Negativity … when it will be ended?
From Gordon’s review…”The Sony Alpha A7r offers two continuous shooting options, continuous at 1.5fps and Speed Priority at 4fps. The Alpha A7 shoots at 2.5fps or 5fps in the same modes”.
I was thinking of moving to full frame from my Nikon D90 and 5fps on the A7 is fine for my use, however, am I correct in that in order for the A7 to reach 5 fps it is using the autofocus settings for the 1st shot, then for the next 4+ shots the AF is essentially locked at the settings from the 1st shot? The D90 shoots about 4 FPS in raw, but I think that it is continuously focusing.
Good review by Gordon, but here is where I think he went wrong:
– Higher Megapixel does not mean blurrier shots because it’s higher MP. What he should have said is that you get the same sharpness as a lower resolution camera when you downsize, but getting sharpness at full resolution requires more care. The way he phrased it is like saying a bigger sensor doesn’t focus as well as a smaller sensor because you have shallow depth of field so bigger sensors are not meant for documentary photographers.
– His video conclusions are wrong: Video is better in the A7r versus the A7 as stated by Philip Bloom and EOSHD. The camera store even stated that the video on the A7r is sharper than the A7.
Yup and there’s this guy on youtube which did a comparison video on the A7/r, RX10 and added the 7D to the mix, quite interesting result, but between the A7 and A7r, it appears the A7r gives better IQ even at higher ISO, and the tester was unable to replicate the moire he got with A7 on the A7r.
Very happy with Sony’s performance and current strategy 😀
Love the A7&A7r!! Would i buy one having a lot of A mount glass…perhaps not just yet. Becouse the A mount future isn’t as conclusive yet i am eager to find out what the future holds in that regard. I am quite curious if we might see the same level of leap forward regarding the A mount. I am looking forward for the A mount FF rumors increase.
For now i am quite pleased with myself not having dumped my Sony gear for the last couple of years. Seeing the output performance of the sensors from the A7&A7r sure gives me a lot of hope for next year. Put the same level of image quality in a body with great ergonomics and serious AF, and proper battery life, even though if it would be for a heftier price and you would have me sold on such a camera.
I do not own any kind of legacy glass, so my money would be well spent on the perfect FF A mount body. I resisted temptation of buying the A99. If Sony delivers the FF A mount tool that i need i really promise to buy an A77 succesor also!! 😀
I’m not suprised by the market demand. It’s a fine camera that fits the needs of 98% of most people’s needs. Even Gordon Lang made this point in his pre-review of which I agree. Lack of stabilization is way overhyped.
Same old…same old discussions, arguments and disagreements with what DXO do. I tested the A7 with 55 and NEVER experienced what this report states. Loved the layout, it’s intuitive and the quick lock on (yes in dim conditions) were great, so perhaps the sample I used had a later software update, all I advise is that you try it yourself, it’s an astounding piece of technology and in my humble opinion is the best color output I have seen out of digital any platform yet. I’m not comparing Medium format as that is an entirely different deal, and 1700 usd vs 45000 usd well…
10 years ago I wonder if anyone could have predicted that this ground breaking technology would be available at this price. Good for Sony hope their orders grow 100 fold, they deserve it 😉
Would people cancel their preorder if they knew there was going to be a “digital ikon” in X mount but lenses also in E mount?
Yeah, but I still cannot order mine through Amazon.fr (still not listed…)
Well, after waiting for Sony, I have decided to spend my money on a new smartphone and tablet, and maybe new computing gear.
Apples and oranges, you say?
Not to me. I don’t NEED any of these things, I am choosing on what to spend my money.
Had Sony come out with a FF A-mount worth buying for me, I would have bought it. As it is, for roughly the same price, I will get a whole bunch of new equipment instead.
Sony has blown it. I don’t even think the upcoming A-mount bodies are going to be anything worthwhile, the chances of them having a flippable SLT, robust screen articulation, full weather sealing, etc. are not strong enough to make it worth waiting for.
I will wait until the next wave has passed, unless the new A-mount offering is really, really great, something with which I would be happy for 10-20 years.
Pros who “need” a camera will feel differently when their need arises, but I can afford to continue using the suite of photo systems that I already have, and not miss out on anything significant. Plus, with the new smartphone, I will have a new, decent, truly pocketable p&s.
I have SO wanted to buy the new top-of-the-line A-mount post-A900…years now, during which significant advances have been made. I know that Sony is not working according to my personal timetable, but that’s what matters to me.
too many new camera come out every 3 months and just can’t possibly keep up. I will pass this time and take a break from buying new gears for couple years. There are other bills to pay after all. I will keep using my nex 6 and canon dslr for the time being. Mirrorless FF is definitely tempting.
GO SONY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No one is going to buy a Son camera that’s about 2 grand with no lens support. This camera will be a “one of” never to be supported and abandoned in six months, less than 5 years tops. Sony has no real interest in the serious camera market for the LONG TERM. They will throw gimmick after gimmick out there and if nothing sticks, they will pack up and do something else. Than all those foul mouthed sony fanboys will be crying back to Canon or Nikon. Go ask camera dealers, mirrorless cameras and Sony cameras just do not move off the shelves with enough frequency to take them seriously. Look at all those sony dslr fanboys..sorry, sony doesnt make dslrs anymore…just dslt’s…no wait, maybe no more dslt too. So much for nex line, now theyre all Alphas…mabe next year they can change again and call them Nexas. LOL
Have a look at best sellers at Amazon and BH&P. Seems the stats tell a very different story lol.
“No one is going to buy an Apple iphone that’s about $700 with no keyboard. Apple will abandon the iphone in 6 months. All those foul mouthed apple fanboys will be crying back to Nokia or Erikkson. Look at all those Apple fanboys… sorry, apple doesn’t make computers anymore.” – what Roots probably said in 1997
oops. i meant 2007
Small World !!.
What crawled up your Butt?????
So many people seems to have an issue with EVF. But it’s actually the
complete lack of a design soul for A7 that’s disturbing.
Nex7 isn’t a great looking camera. Yet it’s design is unified and all it’s own. I will shoot happily with it. OMD is ugly. Yet it’s design is unified – in its dials, grip and the EVF. I will shoot happily with it. It’s the A7 which has no design integrity and lacks any kind of character. Great products have unique design identity. They never imitate. RX1 is a beauty and A7 should have been proud of it’s design bloodline. Aping the OMD, is Sony marketing department’s petty strategy
that ”interfered in the design of their groundbreaking product” and hobbled it. The result – as many have said here, is a frankenstein.