DSRLmagazine posted a tweet where they claim that Fuji’s new fixed lens Full Frame camera will use the A7 sensor. it’s my duty to let you know that Fuji will most definitely NOT use a Sony sensor for their upcoming FF camera. And as far as I know not even Nikon will use the A7-A7r sensors.
What’s true is that Fuji will launch an RX1-RX1R competitor in Spring. That I can confirm via my sources. They also know some stuff about the competition 😉 But I expect Sony to launch an RX2 in Spring 2014 too so this will be a nice battle between the two!
The real surprise is that Nikon and Canon still have no serious plan to challenge Sony’s A7 and RX cameras.
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Specs and Preorders in US and Canada (Click on store name to see direct preorder page):
Dedicated Sony announcement page at Amazon US (Click here).
Sony A7r body at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS. TheCameraStore Canada.
Sony A7 body at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS. TheCameraStore Canada.
Sony A7 with 28-70mm kit lens at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS. TheCameraStore Canada.
Sony RX10 at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Zeiss 24-70mm at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Zeiss 35mm at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Zeiss 55mm at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
70-200mm A-mount at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Sony A-Mount to E-Mount Lens Adapter at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto.
Sony A to E adapter with mirror at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto.
A7/A7r leather case at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
A7/A7r vertical grip at Amazon, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Sony W Series Battery Charger at Amazon, BHphoto.
Sony FA-CS1M Off-Camera Shoe at BHphoto.
Semi-Hard LCD Screen Protector for A7-A7r at Amazon, BHphoto.
Specs and Preorders in Europe:
Sony A7r body at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE.
Sony A7 body at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE, Amazon UK, Amazon DE, Amazon FR.
Sony A7 with 28-70mm kit Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE, Amazon UK, Amazon DE, Amazon FR.
Sony RX10 at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE.
Zeiss 35mm at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT,
Zeiss 55mm at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT
Asia:
A7r at Digitalrev
A7 at Digitalrev.
A7 with 28-70mm lens at Digitalrev.
102 Responses
“The real surprise is that Nikon and Canon still have no serious plan to challenge Sony’s A7 and RX cameras.”
No real surprise there. CaNikon are like old, conservative slow moving dinosaurs. It will take many more years before they produce something like the A7R.
History is repeating… Canikon are now at the same point as Zeiss-Ikon and Rollei had been in the late 60s…
We’ll see, we’ll see. It always might come out that Sony will repeat Story of Minolta – which even despite of having innovative cameras never ruled the market, even before digital was any factor in the equation.
Whats the numbers?
Without looking is it sales 18% down for Nikon and 23% down for Canon, nothing to worry about.
Move along nothing to see.
Entire photography market goes down in 2013. You haven’t noticed pressure from Smartphones?
Minolta…or Contax
The G2 was, and still is, the most advanced Rangefinder camera.
I would not worry about Nikon or Canon…
I may presume that they have a bunch of extraordinary stuff in the pipe.
The latest Canon OSPDAF is a small example…
Many companies had several attempts… But the one in the 70D in my opinion (according to the tests) is superior than any of the competition
That Canon’s DSLR sales are in decline is a good indicator that they will take steps sooner than later.
70D poor image quality.
In my opinion Canon is a bling bling trademark like Apple 😉 ( even though Apple is 200% optimizing software with the hardware they sell) … I would rather trust Nikon and it’s not Dx0Mark nor Snapsort sites which will contradict me
http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-vs-Nikon-D800
or
http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-vs-Nikon-D610
Anyway, it’s a both sad and smart move from Sony to not sell their sensor to competitors. They could increase their benefits like when Google is giving Android to lots of phone manufacturers.
Btw I expect Sony to upgrade A7 with a 36Mpx sensor by keeping the rest of actual specs (hybrid detection and Anti aliasing filter)
That’s not your opinion, it’s only the voice of some pointless websites. You will have an opinion after trying things yourself, over several years.
You are not me! Or am I not me? What is going on!!
You can have an opinion build with data mining from scientific testing made by such sites, as you said. They show data from scientific tests, without any fanboy spirit, so you can trust in the results as its not OS software dependant like with computer or smartphone
Am i wrong?
That s the basics of scientific experiments 😉 like it was done in the previous SAR articles
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7r-iso-test-comparison-by-focus-numerique-says-the-results-are-impressive/
or
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/new-a7-a7r-raw-image-samples-for-pixel-peepers/
Do you believe we can’t make an opinion from these tests?
Me, me and me!
Ian: that’s the point: there is nothing scientific about reading stuff from unverified sources. Do you know the folks at – say – DXO? Have you visited their lab? Are you an optical engineer yourself? I bet it’s no, no and no. This makes them unverified sources, so you cannot trust them.
You are even sure they have no “fanboyism”; really? Remember: they are unverified, so they could be anything as far as we know. I am not even sure they have a lab, to start with.
But you can trust yourself, and run your own tests, and *only* that can help you make a good decision.
PS
Vlad is a nerd, I am another Vlad.
@thealterego So your solution is to try everything over many years? All these tests exist precisely because what you are suggesting is an impossible task. It’s up to you to judge what’s relevant or not. And, yes, you are another Vlad, because this one has common sense.
@Vlad
I bet this is just the newly awoken clone of the wanker that took my name too.
Motherfu!ӣrs
@HendrickTheElder Yep, exactly, another one without basic education.
Can anyone tell me which Vlad is the real? Maybe i should ask Heindrick the Elder help to recognize him ;)?
Btw I find it weird someone can say DXO is nothing but scientific labs… with the list of US patents they own? Do you think the US Patent Office registered BS patents or it’s becaused the company is not relevant for you as it’s a company based in France 😉
To Vlad the DxO hater, you are maybe a “weirdo” to doubt of Dx0 Labs relevance.
Are you the kind of ppl which will say Apollo missions to Moon never happen as you were not able to visit the base and see by yourself, Neil Armstrong walking on Moon surface?
However it’s in USA we measure the performance of University by the number of articles publication, which is totally subjective. That’s why we can trust in DxO seriousness by the number of patents and the number of the professional using their software 😉
Moreover i would suggest you to not come here anylonger as even on SAR there were using the DxOmark scores recently 😉 “The best lenses for your NEX7 according to DxOmark”
By the way not only Dx0mark tests are scientifics but Snapsort by doing a mashup of manufacturers and DxoMark are doing content curation …
What puzzles me is: with those brains, how can you possibly afford a camera?
Here is an exercise: I have 36 patents. Now throw yourself down a well. Are you still there?
Too bad it doesn’t come with wheels, it would make it a little lighter to carry on a hike.
We are talking about the downsized camera here and not a wedding camera, right?
Dear Admin. Nikon is about to introduce the long awaited Nikon Df which will definitely be a strong challenger to Sonys new FF range.
And what does it have to offer to challenge them?
How could it be that yet another 16mp reflex camera with NO video capabilities could be a challenger to Sony’s new products?
It has that “retro” look.
Should be all Nikon needs to be successful
😉
Until all relevant specs about sensor size and video (non) capabilities are clear and published I would’n use such a pointless leverage. A photo camera is primarily a photographic tool!
By that same logic, isn’t it pointless to call the Df a “strong challenger”?
Considering the overall warm and enthusiastic feedback all over the net, no, it isn’t pointless. An old school SLR type FF camera, working with legacy Nikon glass can only be a winner.
Pepe, touche. Good point.
You just used a pointless leverage when you called dat Nikon DF “a strong challenger” without knowing much about it (per Vlad).
Considering what we know about it right now, it is a different product which might massively eat into the existing DSLR competition way more than into anything else.
Sony’s products, on the other hand, are having extended feature set which is much more versatile yet innovative and asked-for, and will definitely eat into the same market bringing additional value to the Canikon FF (ex)owners. That simple.
But we’ll wait and see.
“And what does it have to offer to challenge them?”
A: A bunch of lenses
SLR lenses. Not same category as current mirrorless.
Considering current mirrorless cameras are very much used with all sort of SLR & RF lenses your post pretty “weak”.
Nikon DF has a F mount. That means largest flange distance than any other camera. Can’t adapt Pentax, Canon, Leica, A-mount and PL lenses. Works only with Nikon lenses. Nothing else.
Nikon DF is competing against Nikon D610 — not A7
It is true that CaNikon has alll the lenses in the world. But when it comes to smaller than SLR version lenses, what do they have? A bunch of Nikon 1 toy lense and these two EOS-M lenses? Micro Four Firth especially is way ahead with smaller lenses, and at least Sony is building slowly something up. If CaNikon ever tries to catch up, they will have to do so from way way behind… is a new game, and all their old lens line up is in a different one. Still useful, but not the only game in town anymore.
Yep, you’re spot on buddy. Sony have 1 full frame e-mount lens for the A7[R] at this point, whereas Nikon have over 400 for the f-mount.
“A bunch of lenses” is already here and ready for any existing Nikon FF camera on the market. So I guess, they are the main competitors to the upcoming product from Nikon.
and there are more than 3 lenses that´ll work with it…
@Vinim
It is not a competition to their own line but an extension. Nikon has excelent glass and I am pretty sure that folks getting the Df won’t need to look for other brands like Sony users do.
this for sure is very valid comment, i’ve started to look around websites with used gear to check what AI lenses are available
Nikon apparently have made a technological breakthrough that allows them to meter light coming through pretty much any lens you can mount on this camera. Up to now, for most Nikon bodies, they were unable to meter even with a lot of Nikon lenses. This is really revolutionary (for Nikon).
“Nikon apparently have made a technological breakthrough” My arse.
They haven’t done it for a good while on their low-end cameras for marketing reasons.
With the longest flange distance, “any lens” can only be a Nikon lens!
Good thing that there are over 400 f-mount lenses to choose from then 🙂
If done right, meaning, a digital version of the Nikon FM3a, then it will most certainly be a competitor to the A7 (for those of us that don’t care about video). I’ve said I’d never own a DSLR again, but I was under the presumption Canikon would keep on only making huge hulking “pro-grade” DSLR’s or cheap plastic entry level cameras. However, if they make a well made compact Nikon FM-esque DSLR, then I will definitely consider it over the A7.
I’m wiiling to bet all of my gear that the Nikon Df will outsell the A7.
For one thing, insane high ISO capabilities. Nikon has been king in this respect since the d3 (1 stop advantage vs competition) d3s (1 stop advantage vs d3) and d4 which is basically the same as d3s but with 16 megapixels. The new DF camera will have this sensor. If priced right, this camera would have lots of advantages vs any SONY. For one, lenses – right now I couldn’t replace my Nikon system with SONY because non of the lenses I use have a SONY equivalent. Well, except I could replace my excellent $220 Nikkor with an $1000 Zeiss. Lots of others too (higher FPS with continuous autofocus and subject tracking, more battery life, etc.)
The big question is price point – make it sub $2000 and it will sell like hot cakes. Unlikely, unfortunately. Position it between the d610 and d800 and I might consider it. Above $3000 – forget it!
More like challenging current Fullframe DSLRs. Remember that the rumored Nikon camera still have a mirror.
“Remember that the rumored Nikon camera still have a mirror”
It may be rumored to have a mirror but do we know for sure that the mirror can’t be locked up with EVF.
And a mirror is an impediment too doing what, photographically speaking?
+++ I agree !!
Evidence for Pure, Simple photography: no video, electronics ? where is it ? ah! there is a sensor ….
what’s important are “t” “f” “exp correction” “ISO” “hyper focal DoF / manual focus”.
That’s all folks !
[sorry, previous it a was a reply to Nikon DF waiting]
If camera size does not matter, and instead a variability of lenses and versatility etc. matters, Canikon do not need to compete against the A7R, because they are already leading in the full frame dslr-business.
It is not about that they are boring or conservative- they already have good cameras that normal people and pros buy.
Personally, I wouldn’t buy a dslr because it is too chunky. Still, I do not get the excitement around the A7R – other than the fact that it is relatively small. But there are cheaper full frame cameras to have, if full frame is the main criterion.
it look like the Nikon Df has dimensions not far from the A7r as the 50mm 1.8G has a diameter of 72.1mm. Maybe smaller? it’s an estimation.
http://nikonrumors.com/2013/10/30/nikon-df-pure-photography-video-teaser-4.aspx/
But i will not cancel my order. In any cases my old nikon (20mm, 60mm micro-nikor and 105mm Ai lenses are not adapted for digital. So Sony Zeiss 35mm will be my first buy. I’m still waiting what Zeiss will propose for landscape and portraiture photography.
This is exactly my point the other day. You need to compare both cameras with the primes you are likely to use. You may find there is not much in it, if nikon scale down the 50mm and 35mm. Look how small canons 40mm is.
“The real surprise is that Nikon and Canon still have no serious plan to challenge Sony’s A7 and RX cameras.” – Still? A7 was just released! And Nikon already throws out DF on a market (5th November) which will be an indirect competitor to A7.
RX1 though cough everyone off guard – As far as Rumors say Fuji started working on their response shortly after first rumors about RX1 emerged. And RX1 got released in September 2012, so they got plenty of time to work on a competitor – hopefully it will be good. As for Canon and Nikon – I’m not really sure if they’re interested in competing with such a niche camera. It got pushed aside even more when A7 got released (though it’s still smallest FF out there with the best 35mm lens on a market).
C&N have the problem with their already introduced mirrorless offers. None can handle FF sensor, and they can’t really introduce yet another mount without being questioned about commitment.
They’re is a less than optimal spot.
I’m not so sure about EOS M being unable to handle Full Frame. You should realize people said EXACTLY the same about Sony E-mount even AFTER the VG900 was released!
Heck – they even showed pictures and calculations on how it’s not possible!
That is a good news!
>The real surprise is that Nikon and Canon still have no serious plan to challenge Sony’s A7 and RX cameras
That is no surprise at all. Canon/Nikon don’t care much about mirrorless cameras.
plus we really know nothing about what they’re up to
I like the Fuji designs, so it will be interesting to see their take on the RX1.
Just a minor english correction.
“And as long as I know not even Nikon”
Should be
“and as far as I know not even Nikon”
At least in American english, cannot speak for English english.
Not sure why, in phrases like “as long as I have known him” it is correct to use long not far. I think long is usually used in the context of time while far is used in the context of breadth of knowledge. My english skills are far from excellent, but sometimes a phrase just sounds wrong.
“as long as I have known” could be a reference of time
“as far as I know…” a reference of amount or limits of knowledge… Probably. Not a native english speaker, so I’m just making a wild guess…
Bill got it right.
Oh give him a break. You got the message – that’s most important. English isn’t a native language for everyone, you know?
No Mercy! XD
More details about RX2 please 🙂
Focal length? Or what would be a dream IBIS?
+1. I’d love to learn more about an RX1 successor.
Yes please!!!
Admin says: “And as far as I know not even Nikon will use the A7-A7r sensors.”
Why should they ? Nikon uses sensors manufactured by Sony for Nikons’ prevailing flange distance.
A7-A7r uses a much shorter flange distance requiring different pixel optics.
Nikon uses Sony sensors manufactured for Nikon. They have no reason to use sensors manufactured for A7-A7r.
Exactly. However, they could claim it was a different sensor by just having Sony manufacture the same thing with a different micro-lens array. Technically it’d be different, but it could easily be the same base sensor underneath.
Admin, Steve Huff just reported his experience with 7 and 7r: it’s worth to notice that wide angle lenses (12-15-21 and even 28mm) have less issues on Sony 7, despite the microlenses on 7r sensor.
Really? Wow… that sux. A7 already got huge issues with RF lenses, so if 7r is worse – I can’t imagine how poor IQ it has.
You might want to read Steve’s post and look at his pictures first: http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/10/25/quick-samples-from-sony-a7-and-a7r-with-12mm-voigtlander/
Sky_walker to me it seems that 7 is slightly better performing. He didn’t say that 7r sucks: I believe 7r is perfect for studio work, where you need max output. I was almost giving up in buying one of these two cameras, wanting so much the 7r but being afraid of its shutter clunchy sound. Now it see,s 7 performs better with wide angle lenses, it’s sound is lower than 7r.
I hope I can try one soon.
Sky_walker’s reaction is based on Ron Scheffler’s quick test with rangefinder lenses vs. an M9. Ron’s results seem to differ from this more recent evaluation.
http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224
Others have also said that 28mm or longer should be fine on the A7, though Ron found all RF lenses to be anywhere from somewhat worse to terrible, and none of them good wide open at infinity.
Hm… I guess – people should wait for some more comparisons before throwing themselves on that boat.
I guess fuji will use a sony sensor with their own x-trans color filter and their own electronics, just like they are doing with the xpro1, xe1 and such
hard to tell, for new FF ILC they might have ready that organic sensor they’re allegedly developing together with Panasonic – will wait and see, but FF X200 surely looks promising. I updated X100 before yesterday and it’s different camera completely, my friend’s a bit sad because he was meant to buy it but not sure I want to sell it now.
Back to the topic: I think I’ll go for the 7, seeing mr Huff last report about M mount lenses on the two Sony FF cameras.
I admit I would be much more interested in a RX2r with a 50mm f2.0 though..
Ah, you are doing it again! Everyone wants a 24mm RX2. Trust me! 🙂
Nope! +1 for the 50mm!
+1 50mm ftw wtf!
Or a mystical 58mm…
It is interesting how none of these camera companies want to admit they use the same core sensors.
we still know nothing about what Canon are working on. They operate a very tight ship it seems, we won’t know what they’re up to until they tell the press. As far as we know, they might as well be working on a full-frame EVF version of the 100D with built-in radio trigger and the option to adjust flange distance.
And while canikon DSLR sales are going down, I’m not sure we should be jumping up and down with excitement. Because what do people buy instead? I’m thinking that “smartphones” is the answer.
The A7/r or the NEX line make good extra bodies or travel cameras for those actually interested in photography. So canikon shooters who don’t always want to bring their 5D/1D/D800/D4 with them an A7 or NEX with adapter and one lens is a good compromise. But a lot of the people who bought DSLR cameras a few years back weren’t really interested in photography, they just though they’d get better pics (and look cooler) using a DSLR than with their compact. The same kind of people went to mirrorless when these appeared. But now that smartphones are getting good enough image quality and a bunch of interesting features (such as being able to immediately publish your pictures on facebook) I think this is where this crowd is going.
The DSLR market is taking a bigger hit because it’s bigger. But I’d think this is the entire segment of interchangeable lens cameras going back to being where it was before digital cameras became affordable. A segment for those interested in photography rather than for those wanting to take pictures.
Cannon does have a 120mp prototype sensor.
I dont know if they plan to produce it.
So, somewhere between 2014 and 2016, we’ll see all those new organic/layered sensors pop up and based on conjecture they will offer a lot more than CMOS can do. From then on it’s survival of the fittest (and later monopoly) just like in the case of CMOS/EXMOR and Sony.
I wonder who’ll win the next round.
– It could be Sony again
– Or Pana/Fuji
– Or Toshiba
– Or Canon
Out of the game:
– Nikon
– Olympus
– Pentax
What are your guesses?
I’m not sure what your post is about, but if it’s about developing sensor technologies, Nikon is not necessarily out of the game. I think their business strategy is quite smart – they don’t have manufacturing capabilities (foundries), probably for cost saving reasons, but they do have sensor engineering teams. This makes them the most flexible camera company in terms of sensor development.
First, they have the choice to 1) develop their own sensors – d3, d3s, d4 (the latter still has the best high ISO capability), or the d3200 or 2) to buy sensors from from 3rd parties (Sony, Aptina, Toshiba recently).
Then in case of sensors engineered by themselves, they have a choice of foundries to go to: Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic, Aptina, Renesas (the manufacturer rumoured to make the d4 sensors) and probably others.
Sonys best current strategy is to make thier cameras as fully compatable with all lenses as possible.
By positioning themselves as a universal camera a nd being first and best with the new tech sensors sony can increase market share.
I see new lense as a side issue for now as no one will buy sony lenses until yhey buy a sony camera.
The lenses are necessary however to position themselves to fully take advantage of increased marked share when and if thier camera strategy works.
Lenses sell cameras not sensors, that why m34 is still the number one mirrorless. Everyone makes descent sensors nowadays even samsungs new sensor is catching up with sonys. They are no longer streets ahead of the others.
Sorry above comment was meant to be a reply to ‘gintony’
My bet goes for Canon.
They’re most desperate, and from all of the companies you listed – they got most patents covering various “exotic” sensors (with Sony being roughly equal)
The actions of sony and other manufacturers seem consistent with the phasing out of cmos and the introduction of new tech in 2015.
Sony has only made the minimum improvements necessary to produce a new sensor that is better than the cmpetition.
The competition is also not making agressive improvements but minor ones.
It would be counterproductive to put big money into cmos as that money is better spent on the next sensor technology.
wondering what sensor Fuji and Nikon will use?
Fuji R&D is apparently second to none.
Really? Wow… that means they got least effective R&D teams in entire photography world!
I’m just going on what one of the big cheeses at canon said in a interview. They are most scared of Fuji.
It would be interesting to see the DxOmark results of the A7/R sensors… as to me, judging by the samples floating on the web, they lack quite a bit of dynamic range, compared to A99 or D800 sensors.
One of the interesting things about these (admittedly) early samples from the A7 and A7R is the proportion of shots for each camera which are focused correctly. It seems to me that there is a higher proportion of A7 shots in focus compared to the A7R. This is (possibly) due to the difference in the focusing mechanisms, but (probably) to do with technique, as has already been pointed out in these posts. This brings me to a couple of discussion points on sensor size and resolution where I would be interested to know what other people think. I’m by no means an expert photographer, but I probably know a bit more than the average. I currently use a Nex7 and the two Sigma primes (19mm, 30mm), and generally get very sharp images with good detail without having to think too carefully about technique ( and by that I don’t mean p0int and shoot!) I shoot a variety of subjects, landscape, street, people. Upgrading to the A7 brings the same number of megapixels but a bigger sensor, and with the two Zeiss primes would cost me (net) about £2,500, given the rough secondhand values of my current kit. Would I see £2500 of difference? Of course, this is subjective, but I very much doubt it. In fact, I doubt if I, or most of the people who see my photographs would see very much difference at all. So, you may say, why not go for the A7R? And that brings me to my second point of discussion. More resolution via more megapixels is a good option to have, (particulary if it means that wonderful micro-contrast medium-format look) and will undoubtedly come when commercial considerations and technology allow it (although I suspect the technology is there now). So maybe next year we will see 48mp or 60mp full-frame sensors. However, sensors of this size are going to put very high demands on lenses, not just with respect to resolution but possibly also with respect to size, and they will also put a high demand on the photographer in terms of the technique required to deliver sharp photos. Many photographers will not wish to negate the advantages of the mirrorless form factor with larger lenses (a point already made many times) and the need to carry a tripod when, for example, out hiking. A camera should be a transparent instrument that of course needs to be used with car, but also sometimes intuitively when faced with the fleeting moment. If extreme care has to be taken every time in order to ensure a sharp shot, I wonder if some of this transparency and spontaneity will disappear?
Sorry Charlie,
Nikon already uses the a7/a7r sensors in its D600 and D800E. Nikon no longer is independent.