A huge discussion about Sony unsatisfying firmware update strategy followed the latest NEX-7 Redneck article. David Kilpatrick explained at Photoclubalpha (Click here) what’s going on with Sony: “Sony does listen, but it listens harder to new potential buyers than to existing owners. It listens to the untapped market, to the people who buy someone else’s camera instead of Sony. After all, it’s already got the existing owners. It only needs to listen to them as far as the next camera upgrade goes for the proportion who will be likely to change frequently.” And indeed he starts to talk about the new F3 and A37 cameras: “The new NEX-F3 is a perfect instance of listen to the unconverted market.” And at the end he says: “All Sony’s advances are geared to making these larger format cameras more satisfying to the upgrading user.Now we just wait for them to produce 2012′s models designed to keep the upgrading Alpha and NEX user equally happy.” Couldn’t agree more!!! 🙂
Lori Grunin from Cnet USA (Click here) posted the first full Sony NEX-F3 review: “Though it doesn’t wow us for any particular aspect, the Sony Alpha NEX-F3 is a nice overall package for photographers looking for something with better photo quality and more flexible than a point-and-shoot.”
Preorders:
A37 is available for preorder at Adorama (Click here) and BHphoto (Click here)
NEX-F3 is available for preorder at Adorama (Click here) and BHphoto (Click here)
Sony 18-200mm NEX lens preorder at BHphoto (Click here).
Sony 18-135mm A mount lens preorder at BHphoto (Click here).
94 Responses
Panasonic just announced a new fast zoom lens for their m43 cameras. When is Sony’s turn?
Keep in mind that the new m4/3 comstant f2.8 lens is effectively the same as having an f4 lens on Nex.
True, but only in terms of DOF. In terms of brightness f2.8 is real f2.8. And this means that Olympus E-M5 is new king of low-light photography and we all (NEX users) took wrong train 🙂
On the other hand APS-C sensors (at an equivalent technology level) tend to have a 1 stop S/N ratio (ISO) advantage over 4/3rds format sensors. Therefore with a NEX 5N (for example), you would get equivalent results at f/4 ISO1600 as you would with the Olympus E-M5 at f/2.8 ISO800.
There’s no such thing as a free lunch.
But Oly cameras have IBIS. Who has the advantage now? 🙂
Unfortunately even f/4 fixed aperture zoom for NEX is not existing.
And most likely IBIS for NEX will also never happen (at least in compact body)
so what’s your point? does sony even have a f4 lens then? LOL
We kind of think they do… but vicariously through legacy Maxxum lenses.
Sony has an 16-50 f/2.8 APSC lens that works with EA1 or EA2 adapters. I realize that it isn’t a E-mount, but it works quickly and reliably.
f/2.8 is always f/2.8. It never change!
And all the equivalency BS is just that — BS!
Right…those pesky rules of physics which support equivalency are all fictitious, huh? Moron.
Shine a flashlight on a postcard or a stamp, the light intensety per unit will stay the same. 1:1 (or 2.8 : 2.8 if you want) equivalence.
When I take a light reading with a light meter, the reading is in either Foot-candles/LUX or f/stops.
If the ISO is 100 and the meter says 2.8, than setting the lens to 2.8 on any camera with an ISO of 100 will get a proper exposure. Doesn’t matter if it is a digital or film camera, a m43 or a 4×5. 2.8 is always 2.8!
Who is the moron ???
You are. Saying F/2.8 is F/2.8 is a simple statement, simple enough even for people like you. The identity theorem is as easy as it gets. Congrats for passing 2nd grade math.
However, the concept of equivalency requires more than two braincells (apparently) to understand. Go study it and get back to us.
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/
Here’s an excerpt…since you probably won’t read it all.
“However, in cross-format comparisons, the density of light falling on the sensor (exposure) is absolutely meaningless “
First of all, Greg, don’t act like an asshole. Secondly, it appears you’re right. I did read the article which is, admitably, quite interresting : )
Greg was right about equivalence, Sebastian was right about Greg acting like an asshole. Win-win.
Ha, funny, guys. Bonus points for humour.
But I wasn’t the one who came out with the “BS” attitude, claiming I was right and everyone else was wrong. That was Embrey, if you’ll read above. I just took issue with someone claiming superiority based on ignorance. If you don’t understand something…ask questions.
I didn’t start the fight, I just ended it. 🙂
If Sony listens carefully, they will hear the KaChing of someone else’s cash-register, when I buy my next camera. Or to put it another way, my NEXt camera won’t be a NEX.
Sony invented the portable music market with the Walkman, but lost the market to Apple’s iPod. Are we about to see history repeat itself, in the quality mirrorless market … sure looks that way.
Lenses? You don’t need no stinkin’ lenses! Make yourself a stinkin’ pinhole lens and invest your money in three more plastic bodies!
Lori wows me, as usual.
where are the 14 bits in the strategy of sony?
All trademarks are fotocamese with 14 bits, only sony continues with 12-bit.
Would you see the difference?
yes, there is a difference in low light
In theory yes, but in reality 14 bit is only marketing stuff because C-MOS sensors are noisy. They have some level of noise reduction always on even in RAW. I bet 2 last bits of 14bit RAW contain white noise.
I find the difference between pentax k-5 and nex 5n to be significant. With K-5 I could pull up to 4 relatively noiseless stops of shadows (when using ISO 80). With the nex I only can pull up to 2 stops before noise and inaccurate colors. It’s a great deal actually for hard lightning conditions. For example, overcast sky is bright, but it also absorb much light so the ground is dark. And light can be actually be quite good, just not bright enough. The high DR is a must here. Just an example: http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ul7cg2I6-aY/TlqJdSx5mFI/AAAAAAAAMbs/4822Y6wJsus/s800/20110628_20110613_0016_01.jpg
Same sensor. If you use the RAW, you are getting the same thing. This is probably an issue with Sony’s JPEG rendering issue…
@Beachrider — did you reply to me?
If you did, you are wrong then. I didn’t shoot jpeg, raw only. And the difference is easily noticeable. In fact, it’s night and day: 1.5-2 stops is a huge advantage.
removed
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I’m surprised to see that the CNET review said that the 50mm f1.8 OSS was mediocre.. personally I like it very much
I suppose it makes sense… they’re trying the hardest to secure greatest market share before investing more into keeping that market share they’ve obtained. I.e. through quality/affordable lenses.
So why would I, knowing that the vendor doesn’t listen all that well to existing customer, want to buy into such a philosophy?
Customer retention is a pre-requisite to any long term.
Maybe that’s why Sony isn’t in any rush to deliver high quality lenses for it’s NEX line.
Ain’t it funny how CaNikon (and others) often launch new campaigns under the stanchion of:
“We’ve made these improvements based on user feedback”.
Is that in my mind or do I remember something like that being said? Something like:
“Our users told us they wanted…”
Admittedly, I think that line is usually reserved for the professional upgrades, when they attempt to justify changes to the system. But it’s a good line!
Awe, they care about me and my photos just as much as they care about their profit margins.
Bingo!
You got it!
Sony is about today and its return on investment and not about added return.
Sony is a consumer electronics company and not like Zeiss or Leica or even other Japanese companies like Canon or Nikon who are into imaging and optics.
My impression of the post was that, now that they’ve secured this “market share” then they can afford more funding into retention of the existing customer.
Perhaps because Sony is relatively newer than the CaNikon, they’re not used to having such popularity.
I can see some business heads at Sony saying to the big guys “hey look we’ve got this customer base, and we need funding now for lenses”. Big guys respond: “ok, get us X many customers, and we’ll give you $Y to make your lenses”.
I dunno, it’s just speculation, why else wouldn’t they be listening, in the end it’s all about making the ROI. Which includes long term retention and continued investment.
Sony is not new… The Alpha system has a twenty three year heritage from Maxxum and wears the crown of being the first AF system for SLR.
They bought their way into legitimate industry status with Maxxum and Zeiss legacy. They should play on that marketing angle more than they do.
I read that again and again, but I still don’t believe it. Ok, regarding the dof I think you’re right, but why should the f-stop (and the shutter speed which results from it and is a main reason to build f2.8- or faster lenses) be affected by the size of the sensor? Ok, I agree that it’s easier to build one for a smaller sensor size but that’s all in my opinion.
Oh, and please don’t take it personal, but I really read it so often that I’m wondering myself if the internet spreads mysterys or if I’m really wrong.
…this should have been an answer to GH (my mozilla crashed), and I see that Vlad3D is sharing my opinion…
he didn’t even mentioned about affecting shutter speed
ok…as you might know, DOF control varies with the size of the sensor…that’s why you see point and shoot cameras always seems to have almost everything in focus at same f/stop compared to big sensors that always show the subject in focus and the background blurred. That’s why you see people saying that DOF changes according to sensor size…but the light that enters or gets transmitted to a sensor remains the same doesn’t matter the sensor size.
so in summary, he is talking about DOF of a certain lens with a specific f-stop in m4/3 will never be the same as the DOF produced by a certain lens in a specific f-stop with any other sensor size…
no, DOF dont varies with sensor sise, it varies with focal distance, distance to the subject and aperture sise.
with the same size of photographed object in frame (and that’s what we, photographers care about) depth of field varies depending on sensor size. But so does the focal length vary at the same time (that’s the reason why someone invented “crop factor”).
Depth of field and depth of focus cause a lot of confusion. I think it’s because people expect it to exhibit a digital-like linearly, but optics doesn’t work like that.
The depth of field we see in an image is a function of the magnification (which itself is a function of how close we focus and what focal length we’re using), and the size of the image-side projection, and as we get closer to infinity focus (and thus have the light rays coming parallel to the lens, rather than oblique angle), the size of the entry pupil.
The best semi-straightfoward explanation of how it all works is in a whitepaper written by a guy at Zeiss; http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b8b6f/embedtitelintern/cln_35_bokeh_en/$file/cln35_bokeh_en.pdf
Best read on a free afternoon with a nice cup of tea.
companies, they try to attract as much people as possible, employees and customers alike. but they hardly make a move to actually make those who they already have to stay. with this trend, they will just be another stepping stone.
“Sony does listen, but it listens harder to new potential buyers than to existing owners. It listens to the untapped market, to the people who buy someone else’s camera instead of Sony. After all, it’s already got the existing owners.” (David Kilpatrick/Photoclubalpha)
Then it risks loosing the customers who have bought into Sony. You can always attract new customers in, but if loyalty is not rewarded the loyal will loose their loyalty …hmmm, now then that Nikon D800 looks interesting …!
Yes the D800 is very shiny and new
We need a Sony comsumer uprising. If Sony doesn’t want to listen then we need to organise and force them to listen.
We’ll call it the cinnabar revolution.
+1
You see, one of the reasons why I picked Alpha was because I thought that company trying to gain market share quickly will listen to it’s customers more than Canon or Nikon which seem to skip everything people say besides mass protests because of issues like light-leaks or explosions.
Meanwhile it came out Sony is no different… and as a reward for that: They still struggle with having very low market share.
Oh well…. they have noone to blame but themselves.
well, if I even don’t like it, SONY does it absolutely properly and correct if listening to the untapped market. Every company doing it, and if I’d be SONY I’ll do it as well, what’s wrong with it? I’ve sold already cameras on the existing owners, I’ve got my moneys. What is happening with the owners after THAT (from the point of money-transaction) is not so relevant as researching of the untapped market and getting new owners. Statistically it is more profitable. And this are two things which are ruling the world today: statistics and profit. In the long term it’s probably wrong. But hey, who cares today about long-term, loyality, image and other crap with so dfficult calculable profit?
It’s not that simple. Unhappy customers won’t recommend your products reducing the profits from your untapped market (and good word from other person is better than $1000 spent on advertisement). Also unhappy customers won’t consider investing in your system: Sales of lenses and accessories drop down, or you are loosing HUGE market of potential buyers by ignoring what people want (see: 70-200 f/4 SSM, or E-mount pancakes).
I’d probably say, that my words above were ironical. For sure it doesn’t work so primitive, and most probably SONY doesn’t think so primitive as well (I really hope so)… but the last activities of SONY demonstrate actually exact the opposite. Sadly, I know quite a lot of industrial examples, where the major point is to produce and to have nice numbers on the paper. New products which are potentielly tap new customers (even if they are actually not) – these numbers are much more welcome and easy to put on the paper and to present on press-briefings, investors meetings, trade fair events etc. It’s not so easy to calculate such “ominous” factors like the influences of the existing owners, stability of support, software updates etc.
Sony figures that once the consumer has bought lenses, they are ‘captured’ and there is no longer a reason to please them. Sure, it’s a short-sighted business model. I will say that it was gratifying that Sony kept improving the firmware of the A77, but in most instances Sony is tone-deaf to it’s loyal customers’ demands.
If they keep raising the prices of lenses every six months, that plan will fail too.
VicTor
“SONY does it absolutely properly and correct if listening to the untapped market. Every company doing it, and if I’d be SONY I’ll do it as well, what’s wrong with it?”
Because the “untapped” market is paying very close attention to what the already “tapped” market is recommending. Keep the “tapped” market happy, smiling, and full, and watch the “untapped” market join us for the banquet we’re already enjoying.
The “untapped” market sure isn’t gonna play if the “tapped” market says the game is rigged against them.
When I was young I also believed into firmware updates and other miracles but now I found good workaround. I simply replace camera every half a year. 6 months old camera can be still sold at good price and in return I always have in my hands best camera on the planet. Since companies are doing their best only for new customers – I will stay a new customer forever 🙂
So, you need to buy a new camera to get something that can be fixed in firmware! I can understand that mentality in the consumer market but for the enthusiast/pro (which is where they have aimed the NEX-7) that is not acceptable. Sony need early adopters to generate momentum with their products but if teething problem that are easily fixed with firmware are not resolved then the early adopters will go to a competitor, they won’t want to wait 3 years for NEX-7 v3.
Time for Sony to wake up, retaining customers is as important as new customers.
I changed from canon to Sony. What should hold me back from switching again? What could keep from spending my money on glass elsewhere? What keeps me from writing my opinion on my blog?
Nothing and Sony is helping
Ok…i recently bought the A-57, and i hope Sony will be addressing some problems (which they have looked in to with the A-37), such as the articulating screen and video 60p is useless at 17bits/sec. I hope they address the issue that VIDEO iso max’s out at 3200 ISO on the A-57 (it’s in the small fine print), a far cry from the 25,000 extended people THINK they might get. So read the fine print for video users of the A-37. It looks like Sony will definitely be challenging the Rebel line-up. I hope someone over at Sony will also look into what’s being done with magic lantern and the technicolor cine-style color profiles for the Canon’s. If they truly want to be competitive for these markets, they need to understand the WHOLE picture.
Yea. I’m done with Sony.
STUPID SONY STRATEGY IS STUPID…
think about this…Let’s just focus on websites like amazon (where you can get most new customers better than bhphotovideo or adorama)
if you get the new customers, ohhh nice, money for sony, awww yeaaah. 4 or 5 stars rating if it’s a very good product…but after some weeks of use, the “new” customer NOW a current user is aware of some issues and features that might get resolved or improved just by via software (easy task isn’t it?) but they don’t give priority to current models and are always releasing new models…
Are they (Sony) really thinking they’re going to keep that 4 or 5 star rating?
Nope, most users in the US just return the product if within 30 days from purchase or sell it right away and update their reviews with a 1-star or 2-star just because they didn’t get their issues or lack of features solved..
and not only that…they’re not going to recommend a Sony camera ever again based on their personal experience…
Now. It’s working the current strategy? Yes. but for how long?
I’m happy with the NEX-5 and looking forward to invest in A-mount (have a couple of A-mount lenses already) or if the next NEX-7 or 5 gets really good will stay with E-mount, but they reaaaaally need to get serious with the current user base. We are the people that buys most lenses after all, so… What’s Sony waiting for?
That’s the Japanese company. They wait till time passes. They’re never in rush for making changes, and what we ask for would be a huge change in Sony way of viewing world outside corporate walls.
ANYONE: Does the NEX-F3 offer electronic first curtain shutter as in the 5N and the 7? Or is it the same as the C3, 3 and 5 (shot gun shutter)?
Thanks!
“Sony… listens harder to new potential buyers than to existing owners. It listens to the untapped market…”
The Slutty Wife.
Oh, dear!
I repeat others ….and myself.
Sony listens harder to potential buyers rather than existing ones….ALL good and prospering companies listen just as hard to both because they want repeat business.
Sony are doing their very best to deter ANY repeat business…and are succeeding very well.
LISTEN TO US SONY…..AND LET US KNOW YOU HEAR!!!
The 12-35mm f2.8 Panasonic lens have a long time in development and another 35-105 f2.8 come this year too! Booth are wheathersealed. I know most of you guys buy the camera for photo only, but we cannot ignore the huge improvement that this cameras have in video mode, why? Because video option is a good selling point too! and the Nex has a nice video feature. But in VDSLR world the Canon has the advantage thanks to the user base and second come the Lumix GH series, and now with this two new zooms Panasonic is securing a great position in the video market, if the rumored GH3 comes with weathersealed, better IQ and cleaner ISO this could became the new king of video capable photo cameras, and will be a camera that i really like to have.
Sony must compete aggressively against that, i don´t know if the change are with a Nex9 or the A99, but if they want a share of this market they must to fight hard. Look at Nikon and Canon, they just released two great cameras centered in video production, even have a headphone jack.
I´m a Nex 5n owner (soon to have a fs100), i used the Nex in several video professional productions, and is a pleasure to use, i love the clean quality of the image.
Sony i really don´t need several bodies just great bodies, and what i most need is great lens, for my daily job i need a 16-50 or 24-70 constant f2.8 with OS, i´m using a Tamron 24-70mm f2.8 with the LA-EA1 because i don´t need autofocus, but a proper Nex lens will be just great.
P.D.
Sony if a better codec is not possible, all right! i get it!, give me then a clean HDMI output. But please upgrade your firmware.
Sony’s problems are much deeper than just listening to present and future customer’s needs or developing new lenses for cameras. Sony’s problem is Sony the company and Japan, Inc. in general.
I don’t know if true but I recall reading stories about the last Sony CEO, an American who failed to gain the needed support reportedly because he wasn’t Japanese and lacked the cultural understanding needed to promote the changes so deeply needed.
Japan’s economy is failing, and has been for more than a decade. The average age of the people in Japan is going up faster than other countries, and importantly, as pointed out in an earlier posting Japan business culture doesn’t adapt quickly. Sony is suffering losses that will hamper any desire to fill-out a product line like Alpha with the many unprofitable items needed to build a photographic system like the one Canon and Nikon has built over a 40 year time.
For those of us (me included) looking to Sony to leverage its technological innovations and market more than “new” camera bodies each year are out of luck, as Japan, Inc. and Sony in general will never be able to invest the needed resources to fill the gap in the product line.
In the long run, Nikon and Canon are likely to suffer the same economic issues as Sony as inovation has slowed with little reason to replace a three year old D3 with a D4 and the same with the Canon products.
OK I’ll give it a try…
“Sony… listens harder to new potential buyers than to existing owners. It listens to the untapped market…”
So, I sell my NEX-7 and get a Sammy NX20… right?
During my absence, Sony will make a wired remote, an 85/1.4, a 60/2.8 Macro, a 50-210/4-5.6 (not 6.3), and improve noise performance. Oh and a wired remote. Did I say wired remote? You know, one that doesn’t delay or require batteries.
This is great and so simple I’m aghast I didn’t figure it out before. Just need to change systems so to get the system I want to be the system I desire to change back to the system I had which is now same as system I changed for.
Brilliant!
Once Samsung learn how to make a decent sensor and user friendly (for manual focus lenses) camera, Sony NEX will face the same fate as their TVs. At the moment that (NX) is not an option.
I am looking to buy the F3 if I ever learn about its specs!!!!
They are making better decent sensors. The NX20 uses same as NX200. It’s getting pretty good. Seems sharp and smooth. The high iso samples look very nice. Still lacking in EVF tech but even that’s improved on NX20. Plus it allows the screen to articulate in vertical position. The NEX screens are useless for waste level portrait togs. Waist level portrait shooting emulates classic medium format portraits very nicely.
Alas… I’m a Sony/Alpha/Maxxum user for a very very long time now. That won’t change easily.
Clyde; no-one is saying you will not get your lens goodies (well, not the 60mm), but you will just have to wait until 2014…maybe, to get them- but, no worries, ya got the kit lens, right ? In the meantime, there will be 5 new NEX models and you will get the 50mm F/1.8… wait for it, wait for it- in BLACK !
It’s unfortunate that the NX looks as bad as the Sigmas as soon as ISO 800, because Samsung has a couple of nice lenses (and a real pancake lens).
wait for it, wait for it… hahaha
DK’s insight, honed after years of industry experience makes sense to me and mirrors my own opinion. There is a lot of whining in this forum – it’s not like you can’t take a decent picture with what Sony has available now. Of course, people can never have enough new tools (or toys).
Of course any tog can use any camera to make pictures. I’m often humbled by the images of classic masters trucking through the fields with giant wooden tripods and view cameras over their shoulders… or on a mule. We really don’t know how good we have it.
However… Evolution can be random or directed. Directed evolution requires codified input from existing users. That’s how users get what they want. It could be a car, a cat breed, a computer mouse, or a camera. If we don’t speak upon how we want our cameras to evolve, then we’ll never get the camera we want to have. We’ll suffer through countless random mutations. We cannot allow that. We must attempt to direct the evolution of tools we put in our hands. We direct evolution intelligently… not randomly.
Camera and Tog is a very personal relationship. The goal is not to set us apart, but to unify that relationship.
+100
Applause for a well thought out and very nicely articulated response! 🙂
you can not compare it with evolution 🙂 here is the game a bit different. Not the user is the evolution maker, but the money-gainer, they do actually the evolution of user. PR for more MP -> plebs wanna it (just don’t be offended please, but the most of users in this world are just dupable, manipulatable plebs) -> producing more MP packed into the small sensor -> plebs are happy. So who did design this evolution? Not you, not me and not the other 90% of the forum user here. I think concerns like Sony are listening to some different voice as from nirds like we are :). And they need it it to survive, or how do you want to sell A99 if there is tethering already in A77 inside… oh, there is no one? Thank goodness! 😉 (I reduce it intentional to absurdity)
Oh no offense taken… as an Information Theorist, I enjoy this direction of discussion immensely.
Random or Directed, Evolution requires more than mutation. It also requires Natural Selection.
NatSelect is directed by what the public (plebs) purchase. Just as Genes and Memes are selected for based upon their Beneficial Attributes, so to will the features be selected for based upon their Beneficial Attributes.
The Beneficial Attributes are always a form of nourishment.
Short term NatSelect can be accounted for by sugar candy addictions… (smile detection, auto portrait, pink cameras). But there is no long term survival for those who NatSelect for candy which cannot nourish. Remember the talking Minolta… “too dark use flash”. I dare say no one who NatSelected for that is still involved in photography beyond purchasing postcards and/or hiring real photographers to shoot their family portraits. Gimmick features pave the way to extinction. There are no more talking Minoltas except in the eBay Museum.
Long term Photographic Survival will be awarded to those who NatSelect for real nourishment (great lenses, full function remote, stable firmware, customer support).
I like your optimism 🙂
but you’re using the natural selection and evolution algorithms which are not up-to-date any more… it’s like using the selection processes of the, let me say, modern homo sapiens on the homo neanderthalensis. this is too different generation now to use the same principles. Todays users have mostly nothing to do with the photography (since new motto: everybody can be a photographer today), their image of the photography is quite different from the “old times”. And on the other side, the consume in it’s own is quite different today as well: throw-away and 99 cents mentality, junk and discount-culture are only a couple of keywords. I don’t think this is a good base for that kind evolution which we – a quite tiny group of endangered species – would like to see 😉
You talk as if evolution only evolves into one sentient being, or that every sentient being is endowed with the same beliefs, needs and principles. The problem with you analogy is that while Sony attempts to satisfy a broader set of objectives that you want them to satisfy, you have honed in on a particular subset of the set of features (or products) that you find useful for your specific purpose(s). Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it has become endemic in the prevalent culture to believe that success can only be measured if a particular metric for success is met (in this case, what you want and expect Sony to do).
A company can only grow if it expands its constituency. You say that features such as smile detection, auto portrait, etc.) are “candy.” I tend to think of it as an easement for people who are not yet converted to more advanced cameras or cameras with interchangeable lenses. People complain about the higher cost of some specialized Sony lenses. This is true, but the only way to mitigate this problem is by broadening the population that will be interested in buying the specialized products. To that effect, the F3 and A37 are compelling cameras for the neophyte to join the Sony fold. Now, as Sony totally abandoned the more advanced user?
I posit that with its resources probably strained, it is unable to penetrate the sub markets simultaneously. Thus the sequential targeting of various market segments. Lets hope that a refocused Sony can balance the need to get more users to buy Sony interchangeable lens products will also result in more products for its established user base. Even this could be problematic. Even in SAR, surveys of what lenses should produce next result in several lenses being of import to the survey takers. It is implausible to expect Sony to produce all of them simultaneously. Thus, there will always be disappointment somewhere in the user base. Sony must minimize this disappointment, both as far as numbers and amplitude are concerned.
VicTor and Almazar80, I congratulate you both on this level of discussion. I don’t believe that many forums, or even Sony heads, are capable of delving into the deeper philosophies concerning the photo industry. We need more of this insightfulness. We need less shortsightedness.
Almazar80, were this or another forum equipped with a “like” button, the users could elevate the most pertinent suggestions to the top, making it much easier to filter through the most desired improvements.
VicTor, there has never been a shortage of interest in photography since Mr. Eastman put the Brownie in the hands of plebs. No features, no gimmicks. A simple choice of sunlight or shade, point and shoot. An empire was built upon providing nothing more than a root connection to the truest essence of photography. It carried over the the manual focus Polaroid SX70 Alpha 1, and in countless 35mm rangefinders and twin lens reflex cameras. It’s not so much to encourage the public to create photos without gimmicks. We’re supposed to be smarter today than we were twenty thirty years ago.
Amazar80, a “subset of features” can promote becoming a better photographer, or promote becoming a poor photographer. I suggest only one “subset of features” is required for survival. As I’ve said before, Grandma can be taught and encouraged to hold camera vertically and move closer much faster than she can be taught to dive into menu systems and set up a smile detecting auto portrait algorithm. One skill translates to every camera. The other skill must be relearned with each new camera.
I believe the most elegant and long lasting feature is simplicity. And in the spirit of parsimony, simplicity will always survive.
VicTor, Sony has a choice. Feed the “99 cent throw-away junk culture”, or offer to elevate it to a higher level. No one has ever suffered long by insisting upon the purity of foundational tools. Imagine the buzz at the camera counter, the photo forums, the user outings… the release of a simple puritan machine would garner more attention and respect than any passing fancy gimmick. That’s a lot of good publicity from every camera salesman in the world who understands that good sales come from developing a long lasting relationship with a customer who is learning a skill, rather than clicking a program. Thank the Photo Gods that there are still companies like Leica that have ballsies big enough to release a b&w only camera.
Almazar80, a company will grow its constituency when they realize that potential customer base is living in a new world where public user feedback trumps adhoc gimmicks. Success lies in getting pro affirmation first, which infuses enthusiasm into the enthusiasts who talk on forums and make recommendations to cousin Suzy. The idea being that professional DNA has trickled down to the general user camera, and with it, the essence of artful photography. That’s the idea anyway.
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Fun discussion. Respectful on all accounts. Good photosophy from all!
ok Clyde, you are right.
but…
What is Leica today? An overpriced toy for rich nostalgists? Every user of a modern cam will say: “Hey, I can make photos much easier and more comfortable. And they are even better!” In the eyes of majority the people who are buying M9 or similar are wasting their moneys for expensive toys, are eccentrics. Parsimony has mostly eccentric image today. The only way where the Occam’s razor is welcome is in the reducing of efforts: “If you can reach the same outcome with less effort, it is always better to do less”. All the gimmiks are working for the parsimony, just for another kind of it.
But you are right, there will be always people, who really think and act in opposite direction: “to do more yourself with less” and will always prefer cams with no gimmics, cars with no automatic gear shift and self-made pizza instead of that microwave-frozen-dreck. The point is: they are the clear minority. More and more often I see wide opened eyes if somebody holds my cam: “You are using your cam in M-mode? What is it good for? o.O” So, as I said before I don’t think Sony will listen to our nirds-voices. Sony, Panasonic, Olympus etc. are here to entertain us, and you know that bread and circuses are for plebs. Didn’t you feel that cold breath of disappointment and apprehension as you saw the word “touchscreen” in specs of the A99? I did.
Nice lively debate, I didn’t have so much fun since I was a student 🙂
VicTor… You’re wrong about me being right…:) A lot of people have brought up some very good points. So I’ve changed my mind, kind of.
If “auto port” makes people feel better about their photography experience, then that could be a good thing. I guess the most important thing is to just get people out making photos, however that is accomplished.
Zony (below) has a great use for casual use of “face detection”. After hearing his/her explanation, I can see the benefit. Thank you Zony.
My biggest gripe with all this tech is that resources to develop it should be just as concerned with old standard features like tethering, remote control, flash operation… all of which are lacking. It seems we don’t get features that we’ve been asking for, but do get features that no one asked for. So my frustration with Sony is from witnessing devolution of cameras that have lost standard features that we’ve had for decades. Stuff that I count on to feed a family.
Why does “Smile D” and “Auto P”, “Pixel Binning” have to come at the expense of losing Bracketing with Remote, Diagonal Scrolling, Magnified Editing? Why doesn’t my flash system work on Mirrorless and SLT just as securely as with DSLR?
I don’t like losing mandatory legacy features for the sake of new ones. Why is it now harder for me to do my job? With NEX-7/5/3, I cannot bracket exposures with any remote on tripod. They force me to touch the camera, causing misalignment for image stacking in post.
Why does the NEX need an entirely different menu system than Alpha? Why are there three completely different EV Compensation gages to decide between? They all do the exact same thing but look completely different. It seems like a dozen people were working separately on the menu system, and none of them ever talked to one another… and none of them ever used a camera in their life.
I hope one day that Sony employs a true visionary to lead the photo imaging division. Someone like Yoshihisa Maitani would be very welcome to redirect and consolidate the efforts.
well, why oh why? I think my words about entertaining (bread and circuses for plebs) could be self-explanatory enough. You should see a difference between the gimmicks and tools. Gimmicks like face- and smile-detection, auto-portrait-crop, smart-zoom, crappy “artistic”-filter and in-body-HDR etc. are primary made to entertain, are twinkling baits for folks. For sure, some “real” photographers can sometimes find some use for that gimmicks, like Zony does. Like I can use some stupid musik-CD as a little mirror for lovely plays of light in my stills. But primary and mostly these gimmicks are just to entertain, same to that CD.
On the contrary side, the tools like focus peaking, braketing, tethering and so on are from the beginning there to help on working, to improve the efficiency, if even sometimes it’s very spezial and not many people will use it. But hell, how many cams you can sell if you advertise it with 3 levels of DRO-braketing or 250 sec of flash-sync? The most normal people even don’t know what it is good for. But if the cam can detect your best buddy’s big grin and makes a photo – woaahh, dude! Next future it will downsize pics from XX-MP to 1MP and publish it on the facebook by itself! Hallelujah and amen!
Amen!
What a pity. I was one of the first people with a NEX-7 and I sold it because of the uncertainty of the Sony platform for existing users. I make recommendations not based on my instant impressions, but on whether budding photographers will have a stable and time-tested system to work with in the future. OVF, wide lens selection, commitment to photographic fundamentals, etc. are essential. Gimmicks aren’t.
Come on, Sony. Build faith from within your current customer base. They are your best spokespersons if you deliver them an uncompromising product.
But sony work so hard to be certain – for example: the Peak function.
The manual says that it only work on the NEX-Display – not via HDMI-Port. But it works via HDMI until the last Software-Update. With this update the Peak-Function on HDMI is gone. Now the manual describes exact the funktionnality of the actual Software. For sure.
I really love the way my A65 works but I am really disappointed with the poor ISO (reported to be good when I bought it but even ISO800 is noisy) and the poor JPEG engine (my previous Canon SX10 was MUCH better and somehow…amazingly… gave sharper pictures CONSISTENTLY)
Sony gave me the camera I wanted but let me down with the picture quality.
I’m sure I remember when I bought it that Sony had sorted the software then put in a different sensor to the production models. This was their excuse for picture quality problems but they have not given us the new firmware which solves these problems.
I started to recommend Sony cameras but now say nothing because I feel so let down.
Unless Sony get their fingers out and sort these problems with the A65/77 then I’m sure everyone can guess what my next camera will not be!!!
You guys certainly have elevated the conversation. But one man’s frill feature is another’s necessity, no ? I personally think that 90% of the ‘Scene’ features are crap, but someone out there will say “I can’t live w/out the ‘Toy Camera’ feature.” I am as guilty of this as the next person insofar as I find Face Detection useful and lowers the amount of miss-focused shots when fast moving children are involved.
I went to a photo exhibit recently and they had Kodak’s recommendations for it’s first cameras. In the brightest of light, the minimum shutter time was 1/3 of a MINUTE. You don’t think they had some blurry pictures? 1 minute looked to be the average shutter time before the turn of the century. Now, we can take pictures of objects invisible to the naked eye, and objects so far away we must measure in ‘light-years.’ Amazing. I say this to emphasis that what we consider just useless features can truly make for a better photographing experience. While I cherish my rangefinder manual lenses, I know that AF will give me edge when a moment is fleeting in time to take the shot.
What I have a problem with is when a manufacturer like Sony makes an incremental change and voila ! we have ourselves a new model. The R&D money musta been spent on a trip to Maui, because it wasn’t spent making the F3 a class-leading entry-level camera. By Sony constantly lagging in lenses, they will never reach their dream of being the #1 camera manufacturer. It’s like a printer company that makes a great printer, but you can’t find replacement ink anywhere- how long have such printers lasted in the marketplace ?
Thanks Zony for that explanation of Face Detection. I can see its usefulness from your comments.
I just wish the new tech didn’t come at the expense of losing other features that have been standard for decades… like exposure bracketing with remote, tethering, etc…
It seems we often get features that no one asked for, but lose standard legacy features that have been counted on for a very long time. There-in-lies my true frustration.
Sony is clearly fighting for it’s business life and doing some good things, but at the same time you can see the remnants of those who make horrible decisions. I have noticed a lot of new ads here in Asia for their TVs and clearly we all see what they are doing with cameras. I got the A77 and since then, have not felt confident in investing into glass. If Canon releases the 7D M2, I might ebay my A77 and go Canon and never look back…I didn’t buy Sony to be a second class photo citizen.
You think that Canon is any better in listening their current customers? You are greatly mistaken. Sadly.