Chuljae Lee sent me his concept video about a “Sony ILCA a9x Mirrorless Apha, Global Shutter, Z Shift camera“.
One camera to make them all happy…A and E-mount owners 🙂
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97 Responses
Nice graphic of fictional cam.
A bulky body which fits A- & E-mount wouldn’t make me happy. Also usually shimmed parts are moving is no good idea, unless you introduce an IBIS which would make the body even more bulky.
And from sight of A-mount users: why should they give up the mirror and deal with an EVF?
I wouldn’t be too happy about it. As I predominantly use E-mount, I’m not that interested in buying a body filled with lots of unnecessary bulk and gadgetry, and to a higher price no doubt. Imho, a hybrid mount camera is a failure already on the drawing board.
If this is true I think Sony is smart enough to see that it could replace the E-mount line (lots of new buy in without A-mount legacy—not trying to start a flame war but it is true) but it would be a transition product for existing A-mount users. An expensive option to bridge that side of the family.
It’s to smart to be truth, first e-mount that has got my interest. That would really realise the merge of A- and E-Mount into Alpha.
Nice animation but rather no real application since there is a problem: to focus a given a mount lens at finite distances the sensor should move back in comparison to the infinity position, not forward. Otherwise one could also fix every lens at the close focus position and use this system but I would guess the lenses are usually less good (optically) at the close focus position…
If the lens was set to a finite distance, and not infinity, then that could be overcome to some extent, but it’s fairly hit-and-miss. Set it too close, and the camera might not achieve infinity focus. Also, I suspect lenses are optimised for sensor/film at a fixed distance (especially zoom lenses), and they may be sub-optimal when set to (say) focus at a nominal 1 metre distance and then the sensor is moved to focus at infinity it will not be used in quite the way expected by the designers. Maybe odd things with field curvature compensation and the like.
Thanks for clarifying, that’s exactly what I was about to say!
This is the camera that should have been announced at Photokina, right Admin?
Fantasy which is not going to happen.
However, sensor shift driven by what they call Direct Drive SSM (piezo actuators moving lens elements directly instead of rotating barrel) could possibly provide small, rapid focus adjustments which are not possible with existing A-mount lenses thus allowing fast AF with hybrid (OSPDAF+CDAF) focusing used on E-mount cameras.
If this brings autofocus to manual lenses then its a winner 🙂
Contax AX?
Exactly, same system. Whichever camera manufacturer comes first with this solution in a mirrorless will win all the manual lens enthusiasts.
Indeed, and that was hardly a great success. With EVF and focus aids, manual focusing is no big issue save for action photography (where optimised AF lenses are a better choice).
I love how everyone is a master engineer in camera manufacturing but truly know absolutely NOTHING!!! ITS NOT REAL!!! Just enjoy the cool concept and move on with your day. its not as serious as you are all making it out to be. Jheeez
I love how everyone is a master engineer in camera manufacturing but truly know absolutely NOTHING!!! ITS NOT REAL!!! Just enjoy the cool concept and move on with your day. its not as serious as you are all making it out to be. Jheeez!
Is this the one camera to rule them all?
E mount is dead
A mount is dead
A-mount is alive
It all seems rather silly. The camera body has to be deep enough to cope with A-Mount lenses yet there’s still an adapter, albeit a thin one. Why suffer with a bulky body just for A-Mount whilst still having to use an adapter? I simply don’t see the advantage.
Then there’s all the complication of moving the sensor, IBIS mechanism, any physical shutter.
the concept uses mount for E lenses (makes sense because E is narrower)
I know perfectly well why it would use E-mount as the basis. The point I raised was that the body would have to be deep in order to support A-Mount lenses. So there is the handicap of having a bulky body yet still have to carry an adapter.
In fact it’s actually worse than this. As somebody else has pointed out, if the A-Mount lens is set to infinity and the Z-axis movement provides the AF, the sensor has to move even further away from the lens. That makes the body even deeper. It can be overcome to some extent by setting the lens to something other than infinity, but it’s all very hit-and-miss.
Compared to the expediency of using the LE-EA4 adapter (or, hopefully, and improved version), this looks complex, bulky and potentially rather fragile. I suppose it does offer the option for AF on manual lenses, but is that really important? With an EVF and focus peaking/magnification, manual focus is no real problem for all but photography involving lots of movement. In that case you are better off with AF lenses optimised for the purpose.
OK. It’s just a concept, but lots of people have thought this through and the issues involved. Personally I prefer a much more compact body, like the current A7 series and can do without all the complication of Z-shift. Yet more stuff to break down.
So much of text and you didn’t see the concept.
The concept uses A mount as basis and adaptor to mount E lenses, rather than reverse
So it does. I think that could be a problem as the E-mount flange distance is so short that there will not be room for the A-mount flange. It might just be possible if there’s no physical shutter, and the design does anticipate a global shutter (which, in itself, is a major technical advance as the CMOS global shutters which do exist are orientated towards video and compromise on IQ and don’t support very fast shutter speeds).
My forecast is no camera will appear based on this approach. If a company did develop such an idea, it would be better to drop the idea of any native mount format and make it a true systems camera with flange adapters.
Because with Z shift you are not limited to A or E mount glass. Stick an old Canon FD mount lens on and get AF, stick an OM Zuiko lens on and get MF… One camera that can use anything.
It already can.
You can already AF on Canon lenses (albeit slowly). In any event, there’s that problem that if the lens is set to infinity, the body has to be even deeper in order to allow focussing to anything closer (and it gets out of hand with long focal length lenses).
It would actually be a lot easier to produce an SLT type adapter for Canon lenses with PAF than this Z-shift issue.
First of all to the people below, Canon FD and OM Zuiko are manual focus only. You guys are thinking of Canon EOS lenses. The Z-shift would not only make it possible to have very thin adapters, but it would also allow for precise auto-focus. I’d imagine you would still have to pre-focus the lens, but the sensor could make the micro adjustment to get it perfect.
Too good to be true!
With Z-shift AF, future A-mount lenses can be much lighter as there will be less moving elements in the lenses if the focal plane distance can be changed for focusing.
With 15fps+ and a global electronic shutter with 1/2000s flash sync, it will be a dream camera to work with!
E-mount focus-by-wire is not preferred for MF video shooting, ARRI mount can also be adapted for high-end cine/video applications.
I don’t think that any ‘adapters’ or ‘hybrid solutions’ can fix this.
Either Sony invests in A-Mount or finally rolls out big lenses for FE.
A single system shouldn’t have two different mounts, regardless of Sony’s efforts to shove the bogus ‘alpha mount’ down our throat.
A Mount already have an EVF… And SLT still have a (little) edge in AF tracking.
You missed a few years, eh?
New Sony flagship unboxing
youtube.com/watch?v=i3gHE2Tl-SI
LOL
Good one!
Even if I am sceptical, I want to believe. The last few years, Sony is the one who pushed the limits.
With a Emount lens, the system could replace extension tubes.
It seems to me that what is proposed in the video is a solution to a problem that Sony has already solved, and it has to be said, in a much simpler way.
One camera that accepts both A-mount and E-mount lenses, one by way of an adapter, with the correct flange focal distance according to the mount in use. This already exists in the form of E-mount cameras with LA-EA4 adapter.
What advantage does the solution in the video bring?
The problem with this is that you still need an adapter to use the E-mount system. So you end up with a bigger, more expensive camera body to provide (essentially) the same use experience as an A7x with an LAEx adapter. I understand that it seems more advantageous for the A-mount users but you’d pay dearly for the option I think because A-mount is still niche.
Now if the E-mount were the same physical mount but with a shorter flange this could work but to my knowledge it isn’t. Contax (way, way back in the day) got around this because their two mounts had very different diameters so they could have both bayonets present at the same time. I don’t think that is possible here. Could be wrong and it would be a cool system. I was skeptical that Sony could IBIS in the A7 series and they did that.
Precisely. Seems like an overengineered solution to a very minor problem.
FINALLY !!! … Someone realizes what we want … E-mount performance in A-mount bodies… without mirrors! 🙂
A and E-mount in the same body :O … science fiction? …too good to be true?
Will this be true someday?
E-mount performance in A-mount body…? why degrade AF performance of A-mount cameras…?
All I want is the latest sensor in a high end A-mount… and maybe the A7R sensor in a “A88-like” body.. but maybe that was what you meant, too…
Why the SLT do not perform at high ISOs like A7 family? Why the same sensor mounted on the A99 does not have the same performance at high ISOs when mounted on a Nikon body?
For the same reason the Nikon body doesn’t have real live view or an EVF, which easily outweighs the slight high ISO benefit.
“Slight” ISO benefit??? It exactly doubles the value… http://snapsort.com/compare/Nikon-D600-vs-Sony-SLT-A99/specs
Which is which at ISO 6400 ?
Compare them without Noise Reduction and you will see the real difference.
Or at ISO 12800 ?
Obviously I’m not a “pro”, but what about Snapsort? Are they wrong in their statements?
Naturally, I do not have a Nikon D600 and Sony A99 to compare on my own which one performs better, so I trust the analysis published in certain websites comparison of digital cameras and sensors.
By the way… The sarcastic tone that you used in your response is necessary?
Be water, my friend 🙂
snapsort…best source ever…. *sarcasm end*
Because SLT mirror diverts about 30% of light to AF module, so A99 1000 ISO == A7 700 ISO
What science fiction, it already exists, just buy the adapter.
A bigger body is the point, not the problem. Fantastic sensors like the one in the a7s have been trapped in bodies that can’t do anything with them due to heat concerns, etc.
I completely agree 🙂
What overheating issues?
OMG
If this is the (only) future of Sony cameras, I can also jump ship to Canikon. My Nickname explains why…
I hope this is the concept of A99ii to be able to attach fe-lenses.
But I would never buy this, I will stay on pure e-mount with smaller bodies.
What about using Z-shift
– for AF on manual lenses?
– for turning any lens into a macro lens?
“- for turning any lens into a macro lens?”
interesting idea.
I have long been talking about hybrid mount, especially if it allows af with non sony glass.
The z shift can so be used as a built in extension tube, allowing additonal close focus/macro ability wiith all lens while still allowing infinity focus.
A hybrid mount will be the worst of both worlds.
Do you know that there are a lot of difference between those two mounts? More than just diameter, contact pin location, aperture control and AF motor? Not only an hybrid mount would be a engineering nightmare, it would be a very awful looking product.
So chinese…. they can only copy and not create something new. But even copying they forgot to realize that this Z-shift concept (BTW old as NEX is) lacks IBIS and is in fact incompatible with IBIS. Leave the engineering to those who can create.
Adjustable flange. Now why didn’t I think of that!
3 month ago i found this idea and i’m happy to see other people with the same idea because A mount or E mount camera are not perfect at all. E mount lens are very good now but the body are just too small, weak, bad battery life and slow for shut on but impressive sensor. A mount Camera are good but not very good for sensor compare to E mount. A7’s camera are good for street photography because of the size but lens are still too big now. We are confused about future camera. New A-E mount body with Canikon feature and solid body like 1DX should be perfect.
that’d be a bigger e-mount. wait, a7. you can simply use an adaper for your legacy a-mount needs. also nikon and canon.
What a clever, well-made video, and a great idea for Sony. One potential problem could be the tolerances in moving a sensor back and forth, and with any moving part, it can break. But I like the idea.
The idea of focusing by moving the sensor would introduce severe problems in any lenses with floating focus groups.
And why does it work with macro-extension-tubes?
It’s like moving the sensor up to 20mm!
I don’t know what I’m looking at but it’s damn fancy!
Cool video, but a solution in search of a problem. An electrically active adapter and a larger body with E-Mount should do the trick in a simpler, less expensive and more stable fashion.
All this people asking for hybrid lens mount…do you realize the difference between the bayonet of A and E mount, where the A mount has a mechanical aperture control, in-body AF motor and a larger diameter while the E-mount has the contact pins in the opposite side of A-mount and has a smaller diameter?
I think the FE lenses would look like a total mismatch on any A mount camera.
Uhhhmmm… no
At least the need for f4 lenses would be satisfied
F4 lenses for the price of f2.8 lenses. Yay!
I never said FE-glass is cheap – but SAL is neither:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008126-REG/sony_sel2470z_vario_tessar_t_fe_24_70mm.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1140694-REG/sony_sal2470z2_sony_24_70mm_f_2_8_za.html
here is my idea:
if they keep the A mount but removed the mirror mechanism would it not be possible to fit the Sony’s 50MP 44x33mm medium format sensor in a 9 series camera???? After all you are only talking and extra 8mm and 9mm along the axis of the sensor.
Leave it compatible with current A mount which would shoot in 36x24mm cropped mode but produce selection of lenses called A+ mount which would fill the 44×33 image circle… that way the A mount becomes Sony’s Mirrorless Medium Format vehicle in the way E mount has become the Mirrorless Full Frame product…..
Nice idea, but the last thing Sony needs is another lens lineup. They are slow enough releasing lenses as it stands.
Would this mechanism eliminate the need for AF Micro-adjustment for A Mount Lenses? that would be awesome
Do you need AF micro adjustment on a mirrorless camera?
No, the need for AF adj roots in that AF module is separate from main sensor
I hope he patented his idea before he made a video and uploaded it to youtube. Sony may or may not want it, but someone could.
Cute. But stupid despite being an ambitious idea that will never materialize. I’d never buy such a hideous POS with all inherent compromises. FE lineup is growing, and just about every glass for it is fantastic. Pick one system or the other. Or both, but… deal with it 🙂
… or just use a fucking adapter.
Yes that is true….. so slow to release new lenses……
But think about this…… the A mount flange distance is short compared to traditional medium format cameras so this would allow legacy medium format lenses to be used with an adaptor on the body much like most old lenses will work with adaptors on E mount.
But think about this…… the A mount diameter of 44mm is small compared to traditional medium format cameras
Yes that is why I said: “maybe this would allow legacy medium format lenses to be used with an adaptor on the body”
The Sony Medium Format sensor is really 1.3x crop eg: 44x33mm v 60x45mm for traditional film, so you would not capture the full image circle of the lens anyway.
You did not understand what I meant:
the small mount diameter would result in very strong vignetting and strange bokeh when 44×33 mm Sensor area is used. You can mount a NASA-telescope-lens with 30cm image-circle if you want, but the diameter of the mount limits the useable sensor-size.
Moving parts like this on a modern camera? Hard to believe it will ‘see the light’….
Most of cameras have focal plane shutter, this isn’t much different
I agree with Antony 😉
Is this a sony concept camera or sony user concept camera? When it is a sony user concept- it’s a nice fantasy, but not more. He forgot us to tell, what benefits has the z shift sensor to a lens. And run the z shift sensor with in lens stabilization or ibis?
martin vieten writes about this patent: (sorry only in german)
This comes at first in high price video cams (Sony Professional).
Further he writes more about the benefits from this Technic on his homepage.
,,Welchen Hintergedanken Sony bei der Entwicklung des Z-Shift-Sensors hat, ist unklar. Möglicherweise profitieren (vorerst) nur die professionellen Videokameras davon. Im Videobereich ist ein variables Auflagemaß durchaus üblich, allerdings wird es dort bevorzugt am Objektiv (und nicht an der Kamera) geändert.”
Read more and translate it:
http://www.martinvieten.com/2014/11/04/neus-sony-patent-sensor-mit-z-shift-mechanismus/
It would be more compact to have e-mount on body and a thin a-mount adapter to be attached. Then the Z-shift is way shorter and the camera is way more compact and…
… and it is almost as it is now 🙂
This concept based on the sony patent from 2013. But it is not a new idea! The contax ax camera from 1996! hat a Z-shift film plane. When Sony will release that cam with the same Technic, possibly Sony can become problems with patent rights from contax (Kyocera) ….
Read more here:
http://photo.net/equipment/contax/ax
It is not affected by contax patent.
contax uses Z-shift for focus,
this guy uses Z-shift for changing flange-distance to have a “multi-mount”.
I would prefer to use Z-shift in old contax-way!
And here we have the patent-questions:
How much does it cost to buy/licence it?
How many years is a patent valid?
The original Sony patent for z-shift is also for focus (lt. Martin Vieten).
This is very cool. But the thing is, I don’t think this camera is going to have a mirrorless-sized body.
Excellent idea. Allows for correction of z plane to ensure correct focus for each lens. Set the correction for each lens and then you have perfect focus. This is done with Alpa systems, but manually. The difference in sharpness is very noticeable.
that does sound useful. the proposed idea above however is bullshit.
I look forward for this to enter production