Image of the Pentax FF prototype at CP+ (Source: DC.watch).
Sony is taking the full spotlight with their new cameras. But there are also some interesting rumors coming in from the competition:
Ricoh-Pentax:
Ricoh will launch a new Pentax FF DSLR camera in October. And Pentaxforums says the camera could use the new Sony 42Mp sensor from the A7rII. My personal bet is that this rumor is false. Don’t see Sony selling their brand new sensor 2 months after the A7rII is in Stock. Pentax is more likely going to use the current 36Mp Sony sensor.
Canon:
There is a new FF mirrorless system camera patent from Canon (Source: MirrorlessRumors). Impossible to say when Canon will launch such a camera on the market. But for sure they will do it.
Samsung:
Samsung has launched the smallest 4K system camera yet (SamsungCameraRumors).
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A7rII and RX camera preorder list:
In USA:
A7rII at Amazon, BHphoto, Adorama, Uniquephoto.
RX10m2 at Amazon, BHphoto, Adorama, Uniquephoto.
RX100m4 at Amazon, BHphoto, Adorama, Uniquephoto.
In Europe at:
A7rII at Sony DE, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT. Wex UK.
RX100m4 at DE, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT. Wex UK.
RX10m2 at DE, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT. Wex UK.
In Asia at:
A7rII at Digitalrev, CameraPro.
RX10m2 at Digitalrev, CameraPro.
RX100m4 at Digitalrev, CameraPro.
105 Responses
A bigger EOS M. Just what the Dr. Ordered….. NOT!
Didn’t you hear? A crappy and slow AF is the new trend…
“Impossible to say when Canon will launch such a camera on the market. But for sure they will do it.”
Since when did a patent mean for sure a company will make a product?
Take a look at latest episode of The Grid by Scott Kelby (Canon’s mouth piece) you will see what Canon is planning for FF mirrorless camera; EF mount, DSLR size, large articulated touch screen, 18MP, high ISO and Wi-Fi
Dslr size is a given if they are to use EF mount. Problem is that it will be a pointless camera, just like Pentax mirrorless with DSLR mount was.
Same goes for A-Mount. If it ever goes full mirrorless, there will be little reason to buy it. The only way it all could work is if the mirror will finally start to flip out of the way when needed, as per the patent from 2009.
If canon goes FF-mirrorless, it will be very very very likely existing EF-M mount…. which belongs to the group of EF-mount…. more ore less…
In the name, sure, its part of EF group. But thats about it. Its like calling Sony camera mounts “A Greek Alphabet” group.
While yes, EF group doesnt need a mechanical arpeture control, and thus is easier to adapt, its not like EF can natively mount on EF-M and vice versa. Less difference just makes it easier for engineers to implement, but for the end user its all the same.
If the A-Mount goes mirrorless, it won’t have a mirror to flip,out of the way.
There is no point in a mirrorless A-Mount. Current A7rII sensor isnt good enough as far as AF speed goes and mediocre to low light AF, so a mirror is still needed. The minute when Sony can match a standalone AF module with on-sensor AF, A-Mount is an instant history.
I dont expect it to ever reach the full mirrorless state, as it will be pointless…
Have you tried A7rII in lowlight?
I already have seen it perform in good light, and it wasnt impressive. It was alright, but nowhere close to a DSLR.
AF performance on all cameras is worse in low light, so based on this I can tell that A7rII sensor’s AF will also be worse in low light.
This means that a standalone module is still needed.
My ancient A65 performs better in mediocre light(indoors), than A7rII did with a Canon lens outside in good light.
Maybe A7rIII model next year, will get close to a DSLR in good light, but today, its not there yet.
I do agree though that A7RII is a huge leap forward in mirrorless AF
>This means that a standalone module is still needed.
non-sequitur
Pentax FF coming… I’d rather believe in Sony uniting with Canon or Nikon entering m43
Canon uniting with Sony in m43 is more like it 🙂
I don’t understand Pentax strategy.
Currently there are two big players in FF-DSLR market. And there is Sony as underdog, not able to catch up market-share – even with a good lens selection and etablished 3rd party lenses.
Sony has much better chances to get big in FF-DSLR market than Pentax, and Sony is more or less giving up this segment…
Why the f…k is Pentax entering a saturated and dead-said market?
Same reason why they had a DSLR mirrorless – throw stuff against the wall, hoping it would stick.
Considering how mature Sony’s system is, they’ll have their work cut out playing catchup…
Or eating ketchup?
The Canon a7 competitor will hardly be a competitor. When it does finally come out it will be leaps and bounds behind Sony. I would love to think they would create something that is truly competitive but their history of the last few years says otherwise. They will just tell you it is competitive or better instead of having something that actually is.
Even worse for Pentax. They decide to enter the FF DSLR market now and start making FF lenses?
Take history of last 50 years:
Canon was not the first with AF for SLRs. And to make it worse, Canon FD owners couldn’t even adapt their lenses to EOS system. Today Canon EOS is biggest player in this market.
Could be behind, but people are just too conservative to look for other brands, see the EOS-M that was awful but a lot of people bought them because it’s a Canon, those kind of people will never look for other brands, specially Sony that they consider to be a amateur consumer brand only.
I can’t see competitors settling for anything less than the BSI FF sensor. Sony run their sensor division at arms length from the camera business. They have to or the majority of their customer base will find a supplier that doesn’t hold out on them. Sony still depend on these other customers.
So there will no doubt be a bit of a delay, but I don’t see it being measured in the years. The biggest problem other customers might have is the engineering effort required to properly integrate this new sensor. They will need video/photo processors which can cope with the 3.5x increase in data rates if they want to make the best of the sensor. If they want to make use of the on-sensor PAF, that’s a whole new learning curve (albeit a DSLR designer might not utilise that feature).
Good thing Sony makes those as well. Sony makes EXPEED for NIkon and DIGIC for Canon
True, but it’s all got to be integrated, software written, I/O issues addressed. It just takes time unless Sony’s major system camera customers have been given advanced notice (and samples). If not, then they may be looking at some time before we see a Nikon with a BSI sensor. Historically Nikon have had lousy video support on their DSLRs, so much of the improvements may not be important to them. However, if this sensor has substantially better DR and higher ISO performance than the D810E, then I think they will be rather forced to this (not to mention having to answer Canon’s 50mbps DSLR).
That said, Sony announced a year or more back of a big investment in the investment in the “stacked” 3D semiconductor fabrication plant required to produce these BSI sensors. Even so, supply could be a big problem. I think Sony will move their whole system camera range over to BSI in the next few years.
I thought I saw somewhere Sony keeps exclusivity for 6 months from either announce or ship date. I would expect to see a Nikon D820 or whatever with the new sensor maybe early 2016
Sony have said this last year:
When we make sensors we put them in several categories. [At any given time] one category of sensors is reserved purely for Sony cameras – we don’t sell them to other companies. Like the sensor in the A7S. But once we’ve enjoyed this advantage we might sell them on later, after some time has passed. This is the second category. The third category of sensors is completely generic – the sensors are created for use internally and to sell externally, to anybody. China or Taiwan or wherever.
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0661793352/photokina-2014-sony-interview-we-still-need-to-create-more-lenses
Nikon and Sony use http://www.fujitsu.com/us/ as their cpu supplier with Nikon using a sucessor name (same company?) for future cameras.
Mirrorless rumors is incorrect.
THIS IS NOT A PATENT FOR A NEW CANON CAMERA
This is a patent for a new adapter!
The adapter will accept either Canown EF or EF-S lenses by fliping a lever.
This adapter will go on a ff mirrorless shsort fljange ff camera..not specified in the patent.
This could only mean one or both of 27 things
Either Canon will release a new ff mirrorless camera with a short flange distance.
This will be a larger diameter mount than Sony a mount so with adapters the new Canon will be able to uske all major lenbs brand including Sony FE mount..
Or the other possibility is that Canon is filing this patent for the purpose of blocking anyone else from making adapters for thier lenses.
My best guess is that Canon knows lens interchangeability has come and will nvot go away so has decided to join ot rather, than fight it.
So the new Canon ff will likely be a direct E mount competitor capable of using all lenses, including E mount lenses, plus Canon will introduce a new native lens mount for this camera…with a wider mount and short flange this new mount wtill not be capable of working on aSony E mount camera.
I thought you hated adapters?
No…I hate crippled adapter/camera combinations where the lens is less than fully functional on the camera…like E mount used to be.
I have no inherent hatred of fully functional adfapters that work well.
As flor my comment here I have said nothing about whether or not I like it I have merely described what it is.
To use E-mount lenses with adapters it would have to have a shorter flange distance than E-mount.
Canon EF-M has same 18mm flange as Sony E.
I don’t expect Canon to make a FF-EF-M-mount with shorter flange distance.
The only thing what we can expect is that Canon re-uses Zeiss-E-mount lenses like Batis/Loxia. I don’t believe that Zeiss will refuse to produce this lenses with another mount.
(Same with Touit-line for Sony-E and Fuji-X)
EF-M has significantly wider throat, so i woudln’t be surprised if it turns out adapter is possible
Good idea – got my ruler and my NEX:
The metalring of the mount has ~58mm diameter. I am not sure which diameter EF-M mount has (I read numbers between 47 and 54mm) – but in any case there is mechanically no possibility to adapt without increasing the flange.
You would either lose infinity focus or you need to add Z-shift to the sensor.
Nah, it’s not how you do it. EF-M needs to be only few mm wider than E in order to make it possible. You should try to insert a E lens (or front body cap) into EF-M camera
I don’t understand. All E-mount lenses have the same 58-60mm tube diameter at mount. You cannot insert it into EF-M mount. There has to be something between the lenses, maybe 1-2mm thick. You are right with the bajonett itself.
Maybe most lenses can nevertheless focus to infinity with the hyperfocal-distance, if flange gets 1-2 mm longer.
You are wrong.
C mount – Sony E adaptor exists (yes, with infinity focus) despite C-mount having SHORTER flange focal distance than Sony E.
I have an adapted C-mount lens for my Nex:
The lens-barrel itself has 40mm diameter, that fits completely inside the 46mm hole of the E-mount. And C-mount is a screw-mount – this ensures, that the lens-barrel diameter cannot be wider than 40mm. This adapter is around the lens and the lens is inside the mount.
That why I said a 60mm E-mount lens does not fit into EF-M mount with less than 54mm diameter of its opening-hole.
If you still don’t believe I can make pictures and you will understand what I am talking about.
Or a larger diameter so the E mount can be reccessed
The patent actually covers various flange lengths and diameters, so the actual mount configuration cannot be determined with certainty. Most likely similar than E mount distance but not shorter and larger diameter.
Note that other possibilites are allowed by this patent, but shorter flange distance is likely to be problematic.
Canon has repeatedly stated they will use the best sensor available, regardless of who makes it.
If Canon requires a ff bsi mirrorless sensor ,they could possible buy Sony’s. …but I am sure they would only do that if they had no, other option.
The best in their eyes maybe, the problem is that they are so deluded with themselves. They probably do think the 5DS sensor is the best on the market with class leading dynamic range. They have said they have nothing to fear from Sony
I find 5DS sensor quite impressing, when compared to D810:
more resolution, similar noise up to 6400 ISO.
But faaaar inferior in DR.
Compared to 6D: a biiig step forward, overall
Similar noise to ISO 6400 to a what 3-4 year old Sony 36MP FF sensor with their brand new masterpiece 50MP sensor? Good job Canon….
Similar DR to a 2007 Sony sensor. Good job Canon….
Nobody expected this Sensor even beeing close to D810 in terms of noise. With that expectation, this sensor not as bad at all.
But honestly: I can’t wait to see DXOmark to compare the new 50mp sensor with Sony’s A7Rii…. Sony-sensor will likely wipe the floor with Canons one 🙂
I would guess sony once said that about samsung, nobody stays number one forever so canon better be careful.
They meant “the best sensor that will bring them huge profits” which usually means a 5-year-old sensor made by themselves.
“Canon has repeatedly stated they will use the best sensor available, regardless of who makes it.”
They may have said it, but they aren’t practicing it. The Canon sensors are good at higher ISO, but at lower ISOs they fall behind the Sony sensors used by Nikon. Canon are also falling behind on video, which is odd given that they invented high quality video on DSLRs.
It is still possible for Pentax to announce a camera with Sony’s new 42mp FF sensor in October, if Sony are planning to launch their own A99 II in September.
Which will also be exactly 3 years since A99 launch.
Not before Januar:
A7Rii ships in July/August, + 6 month 🙂
A99II with mirror that can flip out of the way and a 42mpix A7rII sensor = dream camera 🙂
A99 seems to be one step from becoming the optimal camera for many Alpha users, I wonder why they don’t just upgrade it and silently kill the mount afterwards.
So er’body gets big fat sensors except Sony’s own flagship Amount pro users.
The inmates are truly running the asylum.
They better hurry up.
Jeee… Couldn’t Pentax release this cute FF camera with A-mount?
I (and my lenses) would be so happy…
I disagree with Admin. There’s no real business case for keeping the new sensor from Pentax. This camera will not compete with the A7 line in any way. Besides its only a matter of time before its in the D810 successor or a new camera slotted above – the D900.
The Pentax also “under development” – we won’t see it until late this year or early next year. If ever.
Agree with Chris, Pentax is so small, no competition for Sony. Still it helps to increase the production numbers of the Sony sensor. And for Pentax without a top notch sensor, it really doesn’t make sense to go FF that late in the game. With that sensor, however, it makes sense to catch up to Canikon however.
this pentax mashup looks extremely ugly but still I would love if Sony announced stills-oriented A900mII together with A99mII ;(
OVF will not come back.
I’d totally buy an A900II. An A99II? Maybe. An A7RII? No thanks. Too bad the Pentax FF isn’t A-mount. Then it’d be perfect.
It does look extremely ugly!! I pointed that out from the start but most people didn’t agree at the time!
It looks like the bloated dead body of somebody that’s spent a week at the bottom of some lake, and floated back up.
—————-
See there’s somebody below actually calling it cute! Ugh.
It looks like it came out of a 3D printer?
Pentax bodies always looked butt ugly. Look at K3.
3D printed stuff will look as good as the 3d cad engineer desides for it to be. If an engineer is lazy, it will look bad. Spending enough time can make it look like this – http://icdn4.digitaltrends.com/image/divergent-microfactories-3d-printed-car-0013-2-1500×1000.jpg
Nice! I just noticed it has weird horizontal lines going across the camera body. Looks kind of subpar.
Not all of them tho, I really like the MZ-S design.
It did come out of a 3d printer, its a mockup. Follow the link to see all the images. Its all black plastic.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdc.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fdocs%2Fnews%2F20150212_688027.html&edit-text=
It looks like the camera on every photographer’s do it yourself logos…
If Pentax really get the 42Mp FF sensor so early, I think they should, out of gratitude, make a nice little set of Limited pancakes for FE mount, like their own K mount ones.
They won’t be able to make them anywhere near as small. Their pancakes can be small because of the huge flange distance (see that bulge) of the Pentax mount. To give some perspective, their current smallest pancake has more distance between tip of the lens and sensor than the FE 35mm f/2.8 on an E mount body.
And before anyone calls that shorter flange distance therefore a downside again: no, it adds flexibility. The total package of lens and body will not be larger, often still smaller because of that design flexibility.
Yes, I understand that, and I’ve not done the math adding 25 mil to check the lengths against current FE mount options, but they might be able to optimise some of these designs and get them closer to the sensor.
Actually, the Pentax 43/1.9 Limted may end up as a very compact FE lens if remounted.
http://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-FA-43mm-F1.9-Limited-Lens.html
But apart from this the APSC line of limiteds has some very small lenses would stay nicely on the A6000 or 7000, especially the 70/2.4 Limited
http://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-DA-70mm-F2.4-Limited-Lens.html
made a 43mm LTD in m39 rangefinder mount.
Interesting, I didn’t know that.
I actually have a K to E mount adapter that I used on my NEX 5N with the 35/2.8 Limited Macro
Yeah it was a limited edition, but still.
Add 27.46mm instead. 😉
Or make a full compatible fast adapter to e-mount, that would be enough.
The “real” limiteds, like the 43, 32 and 77.
yeah, the 77 is one of the most beautiful lenses ever made
Pentax is a great company. I wish that prospect using Sony sensor in Pantax “35mm” cams will go trough. With arsenal of lenses they have and then with image quality out of Sony sensor Pentax will give run for money to Canon.
I am not surprised, I read somewhere (before the a7rii was announced) that Pentax said that wider AF coverage would be one of the differentiators for the FF camera. I think their volume is zero threat to sony and they don’t have many FF lenses esp. ones made to match a 42mb sensor. However my favorite camera was a pentax, their ergonomics are the best I have ever used (and i own way more cameras than should be legal). Add in SR and their pixel shifting and it could be a nice seller for them.
I wonder why Sony wouldn’t add pixel shift, it does seem a firmware upgrade away.
If i had to guess I would say, because they don’t have to. I doubt they have lost any sales by not having that feature whereas the smaller players are more desperate for differentiation.
Sony is still a small player, compared to the old C&N…
It will compete because Pentax has nothing to add to this camera that would put it on the map. If anything, they will drop a great sensor in a sub-par body to satisfy there loyal customers. But that certainly won’t compete with Sony’s package which is packed full of innovations.
Pentax and their sub-par bodies? Lol. By the way the only innovation in the A7RII is the sensor.
The electronic shutter is very welcome, and I believe the stabilization is better than the Pentax offering, besides it takes a much wider lens selection.
To be fair I beleive Pentax makes good bodies insofar as build quality goes. Though what I intended to convey with my comment on bodies was with regards to the remainder of the package. ie.The mirorless mount and EVF are two awesome features that Pentax could only dream of
I use a Pentax K-3 and a Sony A7r and I can tell you now, Pentax as a camera is far superior, from build quality to handling to just about everything else. Pentax may be able to use pixel shift with the 42mp sensor and their RAW output will be way better than Sony’s. Pentax really can get the best out of a sensor and they make cameras you want to pick up and shoot with.
The only issue will be the weight, cost and of course lenses (the Pentax 70-200 2.8 looks like it’s going to be a bit pricey). Add to that, video. Historically a weak point for Pentax.
Sorry I meant, won’t compete.
So, basically , if we want the best results from this new 42Mpx sensor, we have to buy a Pentax?
The way not to go Sony.
I really don’t know what’s the problem to offer a lossless raw , as a firmware option.
Its highly possible (pure speculation on my part) that offering lossless RAW will make an already slow camera even slower.
a7RII is slow??
No its not. But are you aware that won’t defaults to 12 bit raw if you are shooting in burst mode? It must be required to speed things up.
I try and avoid burst mode as much as possible to prevent the already lossy 14 bit raw from reducing even further
That’s new, I haven’t heard of this anywhere, besides 5fps isn’t exactly fast either so I wasn’t expecting this. I guess it would easily show, if burst files are smaller then they’re definitely compressed?
It is unfortunately. You can read more here –
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3821911
Yeah I saw a mention of it in an article too, I hope a7RII turns out different.
Oh good, at least it’ll be in a real camera. Might as well hold on to all my FA Limited’s and other PK full frame glass now.
Just hope it isn’t a breeze block of a thing.
Sony can make a sensor, but boy can Pentax make a camera!
A real old camera.
To me, the new Pentax looks like the A900 successor. But man, that thing was a heavy hunk of metal I couldn’t stand carrying around anymore after I got the A7. At least, not if someone didn’t pay me to do.
And once you go live view with articulated LCDs there’s almost no way back.
I know. My K-3 doesn’t see much daylight these days and although I hate shooting with it, the A7r always gets packed for travel because of the weight mostly. Need to decide soon whether to keep FA31/43/77 and a bunch of other Pentax glass because running two systems is pointless and expensive.
Canon, too little too late, only thing working for them is blind fan loyalty and Sony’s idiotic love for their 11bit lossy format. Amazes me that Sony would spend soooooo much effort putting in a competitive product and have such a glaring weak spot. And they are still not 100% convinced they need to fix this. If only someone quantified the $ loss this decision is costing them in new customers, especially those loyal to other brands who can easily just say, oh forget all that great stuff, our RAW format is lossless. This is NOT the sort of brand differentiation you want to create Sony, it should be all positive differentiators. lol.
Fully expect Sony to share the sensor sooner or later. Why not for this camera? Makes no sense they go 36mp when the 42 is much better. They would be more successful delaying the launch to meet any non competitive clauses.
“may uses”? I know your English isn’t that bad admin 😉
very true
Pentax is too ugly, too big, too heavy. Sony is better.
I have particular demands for my setup for the forseeable future and total cost of my whole system is ultimately going to be one of them, however, aside from lacking short flange distance and EVF, the Pentax could offer a more weather resistant second system with lenses- something that might be important, and I for one have several cool K mount and m42 lenses that would fit on such a camera neatly already. Before good Canon AF operation on Sony A7Rii was announced it seemed the only way to get a NON canikon and highly weather sealed combination with the Sigma 120-300mm 2.8 for instance would be with that camera, however, Sigma don’t seem to be making it in K mount anyway and i’m starting to focus my interests on the ultimate zooms not even available, which for me would be as I have been requesting: 20-105mm 2.8 or at the least 21-95mm 2.8 WITH weather sealing 🙂 I have a good range vintage zoom from 35-100mm AT 2.8 and other smart range vintage zooms. I simply can’t update these to AF, weathersealed or modern optics for the forseeable future sadly, and a little worryingly :I
In the meantime I have great manual control and direct aperture 😀
FA Limited’s are prone to quite serious purple fringing, in fact most Pentax glass is. Also watch out for quality control, my FA31 needed a complete rebuild, it was hopeless out of the box, but an independent Pentax service fixed it. My FA43 is wildly soft wide open, apparently it’s supposed to be and my FA77 is quite frankly wonderful although many users report a lot of PF.