The High ISO race restarted today: Nikon is going after the Sony A7sII with the new Nikon D5. The new D5 goes up to ISO 3,280,000 (yes Milion!).
It’s also interesting to note that Nikon’s presentation was also focused on “down playing” the mirrorless competition. Just watch for yourself from around minute eight:
Now more than ever we need Sony to make a real pro new A-mount A99 successor. And if I may add…also a future A9 E-mount camera! A camera that is really reliable on all aspects (autofocus reliability, operation reliability and so on).
The Sony press conference will start at 5pm Las Vegas time (that’s 2:00 tonight in Berlin). You can follow the video live stream here on SonyAlphaRumors!
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The core question becomes what sensor are they using no?
Highest ISO: 102,400
Extended sensitivity Hi5: ISO 3,280,000
20 megapixels,
Well, Nikon did a good job of keeping it under the radar. I bet Sony is doing the same.
Not gonna pretend I need 3million ISO, but I’m far more interested in improved ISO performance and improved AF, over more megapixels.
Give me a 24mp ff camera with an amazing AF system, and super quality ISO at 25600… with usable ISO at 102,000 and higher… and I’d be pretty darn happy.
These releases from Nikon prove that clean ISO performance should be priority not resolution. A7s has a great sensor in it which pushes clean images even at insane high ISOs. So the lesson to me would be make it BSI, give it a proper phase detection and put in a deeper buffer in a body with a proper battery.
I totally agree with you. I think higher resolution is easier to market, especially to non-pros. And I suspect it may actually be cheaper now, to add more megapixels over the other things.
If it costs Sony the same amount to increase the resolution, as it would be put in a much faster processor and much deeper buffer, which is easier to market? A real photographer knows the greater value in a camera that never lags, that is always instantly ready to perform. But in the Best Buy circular, much easier to announce “more megapixels!”
I looked at the few specs that are available so far. This is unquestionably a pro’s camera. It includes 4K, USB 3.0, has a 153 point AF system, a 20.8 MP sensor, and shoots 12 FPS. No doubt it will be fully weather sealed, and of course, native mounting of Nikon’s excellent and extensive line of lenses. Expect its high ISO performance to be off the charts.
This is what having your thunder stolen away looks like. Did anyone really think that Nikon was sitting on its hands?
Let’s see if Sony has a meaningful response.
Not just for this but for D500 as well. Its a darn good feature rich APS-C camera which is not trying to compete in megapixel race but rather on improving the quality of pictures
are there any infos on the MP count of the D500 yet?
20.9, 10 FPS.
sure? didn’t catch that
Don’t forget to compare price, too!
Price is not irrelevant but I think with cameras at this price point and with these capabilities, the purchasers are probably mostly after the best camera for their needs, regardless of cost.
So they are shooting sports, or some birds. Gotcha. lol
This is a must have for every soccer mom.
Keep telling yourself that. Maybe this bad dream will just go away and you can continue living in your fantasy world.
I assume you mean hot soccer moms.
Or the ones which shoot soccer world cups
As long as they are DD world cups, i’m all in. 😉
You mean every Sony broadcast camera?
“Now more than ever we need Sony to make a real pro new A-mount A99
successor. And if I may add…also a future A9 E-mount camera! A camera
that is really reliable on all aspects (autofocus reliability, operation
reliability and so on).”
I disagree with the first part. Mirrorless is the future and the last few advantages of DSLRs are almost negated.. A fully weather sealed A9, f/2.8 zooms and a larger capacity Battery will likely finish off the last few.
Sony has an MO, and it generally doesn’t involve catering to old formats. I don’t see them doing both.
edit- Also, just watched the video. I find the video comparing mirrorless and DSLR in continuous shooting to be really misleading. I’m not gonna claim that my A7II can keep up, but the viewfinder lag is ridiculous. They aren’t even showing the same frame rate. And autofocus? The A6000 and any of the Olympus OMD models are just as fast and accurate.
My opinion . . . I agree with the Admin. If Sony wants to rise from third tier status, its going to have to produce a camera that can compete with a beast like the Nikon D5. The a7 form factor is a nice niche product category for Sony, but it alone is never going to get Sony to the promised land.
Which is why if they don’t jump now, they’ll regret letting the A mount dry up. They had to have known this was inevitable- which may be why they have quitely shored up their pro A mount zooms with updates.
DROP THE BODY SONY. DROP IT!
Indeed. I don’t know what mirrorless they were using to make their point about shutter lag, but it certainly wasn’t a top Sony model. I’ve never experienced anything like that in either my DSLT or mirrorless Sony cams.
My problem isn’t shutter lag, it’s viewfinder lag (combined with shutter lag). I’ve played around shooting NCAA basketball with my a6000 and there is a definite problem. When following fast action left to right (or R-L) my pictures always end up being a little off center from how I framed it. They’ve already moved ahead of what I am seeing in the EVF. I learned to lead the subjects a little to compensate but that needs to be fixed before mirrorless can seriously compete with DSLRs. I assume it will happen sometime soon.
That’s fair, I know what you mean. Still, it’s not as bad as what Nikon was showing in that video. It’s like they took the worst camera they could find across brands from the first generation of mirrorless cameras. I agree that it’s not quite at top-end DSLR level yet, but it’s much closer than what they tried to sell in that video.
I agree with Dan Hawk. Sony does not need an A99II. Make the A9. Make it ergonomic, put in a big battery. Equip it with the newest 4 MP EVF, the new PDAF tech to give it better AF than the D5, put in a stacked sensor for 16 fps like the Rx100iv. Release new lenses, f2.8 zooms, fast primes, small primes. And make a real professional adapter for A mount with massive PDAF system instead of the lousy old one.
Mirrorless is the future. And Sony makes the best sensors ever! Use that potential!
“Now more than ever we need Sony to make a real pro new A-mount A99 successor.”
So emotional…
Why? Let them focus on the market that has given them the most growth and let them make an E mount + good adapter cam for A-mount lens users.
If they do release a mark II A99, it will almost def be the last.
If the A99 successor is just a clone of this D5, don’t bother, the D5 is a niche product.
Nikon has set the bar today by announcing D5 and D500 and naming them kings of full frame and APS-C domain. Not running the megapixel race but to improve upon ISO performance. Deep buffers and high frame rates with fast auto-focus performance in a proper weather sealed body, all in time for Olympics. Are you seeing this Sony? I am hoping you do have an answer!!!
And Panasonic just announced a wonderful 1 inch long zoom (25-250mm/F2.8-5.6) compact with EVF and it’s just 700$. Time to move, Sony!
Not just that but the Leica 100-400mm lens as well.
Good for you Nikon. The sideline sports togs are the very best marketing for any system. Millions of sports fans see your cameras used every day. No ad campaign can compete with that.
Sony just doesn’t make anything that compares. Sideline togs can’t use Sony until Sony provides good reason.
Most sports fans shoot with Iphones.
Everybody knows that. Everybody also knows a percentage of them take it further for shooting their kids sports. Maybe you didn’t know that.
Everybody knows the D5’s focussing screen still won’t focus yer OTUS wide open. Maybe you didn’t know that.
fans?
They see Sony transmission cameras and understand that for anything video Sony is superior.
“Sideline tog?” Where does that come from . . . what does it mean precisely? I may be one. I’d just like to know.
The photographers on the sidelines of NFL football, NBA basketball, Olympic and World Cup stadiums…..etc etc $$$$$
Pretty much a one trick pony for fast action sports photographers, not so good for anything else.
And the next big event is … not a mega challenge on studio photography but OLYMPICS. What one needs there is clean pictures with fast focus and deeper buffers to cater to those high frame rates. The camera which can barely track objects won’t find itself a place in the photographers dugouts. Currently after these release i see lots of Nikons leading to a good marketing campaign at a huge event, which will keep the brand at the top spot and would help sell more cameras. And money makes companies run, not praise worth features in certain cameras without necessary sales
Until Canon comes out with something better, which will be in a few weeks.
I am waiting for Sony’s answer 🙂
Sports photography is not Sony’s niche, it’s Canon’s and Nikon’s. Sony is not interested in that market.
So what category A77ii falls in.
The A77 is a general purpose camera, and does just about everything very well.
Whilst the D5 does everything better but is a one trick Pony? C’mon now. Give credit where credit’s due.
I think they are- which is what we were promised with SLT. Admittedly, they’ve gotten pretty darn close with the A77II. It’s just that Nikon and Canon are ahead with their algorithms- better at anticipating focus based on sporadic movement. Firmware update made a substantial improvement and I wonder just have far in the past 1.5 years they’ve gotten now.
A Sony exec said in an interview just a few months ago that they were very interested in that market. I am probably paraphrasing incorrectly, but if you want me to find the interview transcript for you (I believe there was a link on sonyalpharumors) I will try to find it for you.
same here. a7rii is useless for action/wildlife. i still use a77ii for those shots, but would love a ff sony for wildlife
As a current 1d-x user, I expect Canon to announce something comparable but not better sometime this winter / spring (Olympics are coming after all). Probably it will not be as sensitive (Nikon usually wins that) but maybe featuring dual pixel tech.
Spoken like a true naysayer.
Sorry if the truth doesn’t fit your Nikon fanboy narrative.
It hasn’t even come out yet, and you’re already dismissing it. The fanboyism is in your comment…
I don’t like Nikon, but i’d at least wait for it to come out before dissing it.
Well save your money Stan and be the first to make a deposit on a pre-order.
Thank you very much, but I don’t need this camera. I’m merely pointing out your fanboyish language….
By why? You’re so convinced it’s the best thing since sliced bread, go for it.
You’re blind too, I get it. Clouded judgement impairs vision as well
Did I ever say anything about it being the best thing? No…
I just said not to judge something that hasn’t come out yet. Meanwhile you’ve read it as if it’s the best thing out there. Like a true brand loyalist.
Edit: With your line of thinking, we might as well dismiss A6100 as being horrible over ISO400.
Since you don’t want to put your money where your fanboy mouth is, I’ll assume you’re just talking out of your ash.
Put my money where my mouth is? Did you just wait to stick that phrase somewhere? That’s the worst come back ever.
Meanwhile, it’s you talking out of your behind. You’re saying that it is a fact, that this camera will be trash, yet you haven’t backed it up by any data whatsoever. Why? Because there isn’t any data available.
And lastly, learn to read what people are telling you, and stop imagining text.
Don’t waste your time on that guy. He is just trolling.
Stop being a suck up.
You’ve got me all wrong. I am Sony all the way. I don’t own a single thing made by Nikon. But just because I am a Sony fanboy doesn’t mean I have to shed my contact with realism. This camera is probably going to run circles around anything Sony presently offers. Nikon is locking pros and advanced amateurs into its superior system by upping its game. If Sony wants to remain competitive, it needs to do the same.
It’s a niche product, for fast action sports photography. Outside that narrow application it will have mediocre performance.
Let’s see how it performs in the video department. unless someting goes wrong it should cover the A7s2′ niche as well. Or anything a 5D3 does today.
It won’t go after D810’s lunch, or fill the eonomy tiers – but neither did the D4.
Sports and Olympic competition is not niche. Sports & intertainment is mainstream. From the Greeks to the Romans ……
How so?
Daaaaaaaaa
How do you figure? lol That thing is amazing for anyone with 8k$$$
I don’t get it.
Are you perhaps under the impression that sports photography isn’t big market?
so what… high ISO sucks dick…. i shoot base iso 99% of the time… cause I SHOOT FOR JOY… not for money, like the clicking monkey slaves
You sound too angry to be enjoying lol
Aw buddy. So angry.
Monkey slave?
the music is amazing, its like a 90s sitcom. Just wonderful Nikon. Oh that camera is pretty dang cool too, but I can only imagine incredibly pricey
I hope Sony drops an a99II with 30MP and BSI on top of BSI on top of BSI. So much backlit the backlit is backlit. Quad buffers and pistol grip, me oh my.
they will BSI the shi* out of all the spec nerds here, so that they don’t even realise in which camera this sensor comes in!
I would prefer quad BSI minimum.
I think this is an impressive camera, but I’m hearing that the price will be £5,199.99/$7,750…
The extra 2500 over the A7SII is for the second card slot.
For that price you can get two A7SIIs! Together they have two card slots! Yay!
D500. The Unicorn lives!
If Sony brings us an A-amount a99 successor this is precisely what it should mimic: 20mp, lightening fast AF with proper coverage area, high FPS, rugged and sensitive.
There probably are not enough existing A-mount users left to make such product (high end sports camera) financially viable. Why would anyone not yet invested into A-mount glass consider this instead of D5 and upcoming 1DxII with much broader and also cheaper lens offering?
If there ever will be A99 successor in A-mount, it will be a do-it-all camera, competing at D810/5D3 level. Doing otherwise just does not make much sense.
A99 was never a dedicated sports camera, but rather an all-rounder.
Yes, but for some reason a lot of people seem to suggest that it’s successor should be direct D5 and 1DxII competitor. Just read the comments below 😉
I’m too afraid to read below. This site has gone from general fanboyism to furious fanboyism in the last 6 months. 🙂
I rarely ever go into comments section now. Just visit the main page sometimes for various rumors/news.
Be afraid. Be very afraid. Furious fanboyism below.
I suggest it should offer performance similar to the 1d-x / d4 – otherwise it has little reason to exist in light of the 2nd gen a7 series.
I am both a 1d-x and a99 user. I have tested the a77-2. The AF & FPS performance of this 2nd gen SLT already approaches the 1d-x. If the coverage were properly scaled up to full frame, Sony maintains 24mp (perhaps with BSI) and puts in a robust processor, pipeline & cache I am of the opinion that it can perform as well as the larger bodies. This plus an a7r2 would make for a great combination of speed and high IQ. The a7-2 and future a7-3 is a fine enough all around body.
Why go larger SLT if there is not a serious benefit? Re-using the already very good a99 shell would bring reduced manufacturing costs. An a99-2 that performs as well as Canon or Nikon’s flagship performance cameras for around $3500 would make a compelling case for the alpha system.
think itll depend how much needs to be changed
the evf is abit of a issue for high fps ttoo
This is a flagship camera. It doesn’t have to make money directly. It builds prestige for the brand. Nikon might not make money on its D5 either, but Nikon understands the importance of having the top racehorse in its stable. Think of all those people carrying those low end Nikon cameras around who never take them out of auto mode but who think they are a better photographer than you just because you own a Sony and they own a Nikon.
Sony doesn’t have the lenses to justify a sports camera. It just isn’t their market.
That’s just not true. See the SAL70200G2, the SAL70400G2, the SAL300F28G2 and the SAL500F40G
Primes can be good in some cases, but not very practical in most. What Sony needs are fast working lenses like C and N offer.
I mostly use zooms. The primes are a bit too limiting unless you are removed from the action by a significant distance. I should have also mentioned the SAL2470Z2 I have the original version which I have used for basketball.
SAL500 = $13k – Canon 500L = $5k (so a canon 1dx + an 500L comes in chepaer than the lens from sony)
SAL300 = $7.5k – Canon 300L = 6.1k
SAL70200= 3k – Canon 70-200 = 2k
I think the 70-400 won’t have the subject separation nor the AF speed (due to the f/stop) the pro sport photographers are looking for… so I would not call it a sports lens.
How about a 400 f/2.8 it’s another must have workhorse of sport photogs… sony does not have one nor would be able to make one under 12-15k.
Also I don’t know first hand but I doubt these would be able to focus as fast as the canikon lenses on the D5 / 1Dx
So while you are right there are lenses for A-mount which could be used for sports but even with an advanced new generation body they would make no sense for the majority of sport photographers.
I have used them all except the 500. (Someday!). They work great for sports photography. Are they expensive? Yes. Could there be some more choices in the line up. Yes. But the ones I listed all exist, and the three that I have used work terrifically. The point is the point and the point is proven. Sony has great lens choices for sports photography. Anyone who says it doesn’t has their head up their behind. The problem for sports photography pros is not the lenses. It is the lack of a D5 equivalent and an ecosystem that really supports working pros.
Here is the thing, if sony could make a D5 equivalent they would probably make one… but they never even came close let alone match what Canon and Nikon flagships was offering in the past. It is not just like ‘hey let’s make it’ and it is there… the big two is there for a reason. Heck, Nikon was not able to match Canon’s flagship for years and years. And the last few years Canon is behind and it is not by choice either. You make it sound like Sony made a choice not to create a flagship matching the D5… I disagree strongly.
You are saying that you believe Sony lacks the engineering prowess to create a D5, because it has never produced a camera before in that category. I hope you are wrong about that. The a99 was a good starting point, but Sony has yet to build on that start. But Sony has shown great innovative ability both with SLT (i.e., the a77mII) and mirrorless. I think it is less a question of ability and more a question of “want to.” So I guess we have to agree to disagree.
A fast and decisive camera can be used for sports as well as press, events, weddings & documentary. There are the collection of 2.8 zooms plus the 300/2.8, 500/4 and 70-400mm. A performance camera between a 1dx and 5d3 that exceeds what is currently capable in mirrorless gives native a-mount a potential reason to continue to exist.
Makes one wonder why we don’t see Sony camera’s covering sports events along with the competition.
No marketing and the bodies were too slow up until the a77-2, which is superior to the newer Canon 7d-2 but Sony has also failed to market.
Well, one thing is clear now. There won’t be Sony flagship (A9 or A99II) announcement for at least couple weeks until hype settles a bit.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” Ghandi
Nikon D5 – $6499. D500 – $1999. Nikon’s 3D AF system is already arguably the best in the world and they made it even better. Very exciting offerings from Nikon. Now lets see what Sony and Canon answer with
Better have face detect with left and right eye priority.
Jump AF/shutter activation, just in case I want to take a picture of what’s behind the brick wall 🙂
not sure Nikon’s 3d works that way but Nikon’s Phase Detect included Face Recognition as far back as 2007 (D3/D300). I only have one Nikon left (D800) as I switched to mostly Sony, but D800 pretty much focuses on the closest eye. Olympus m43 lets you pick with eye to focus on, and so is Fuji now but Fuji’s ability is faulty it often focuses on the wrong eye. My Sony A7RII seems to pick the correct eye most every time!!!
Nikon had 9 years to perfect the Face recognition system. Sony is a new kid on the block. Give Sony couple years and AF would be on the same level I am 100% certain.
But this isn’t about picking out eye lashes. This is about the robust tools for the sidelines and at the stadiums this summer.
In Rio, no need to worry about all that jazz.
YES! this is what I was waiting for
I am just wondering who is the supplier for those sensors inD5 and D500, as for years Nikon has been strapping in Sony sensors which were debuted in different Sony cameras.
As far as I know, Nikon also tapped Toshiba(now in Sony’s hands as well) and Aptina sensors. Yes, Sony was the biggest supplier, but others provided sensors as well. I just hope that this is a generic Sony sensor and not some exclusive one.
All it needs is a 2016 Olympics logo on it…
Not sure why Nikon would play the numbers game in the area for pro action shooters, when everyone interested in buying, will know soon enough that it won’t add anything over say, ISO 400k. Useless numbers games are excusable (for marketing reasons) when trying to appeal to the “average” (including higher end) consumer, not in the dedicated pro area.
There isn’t a stop of light to be found for regular Bayer (color plus IR filter) sensors, using the A7S(II) sensitivity as a starting point, let alone 3 stops. So ISO 3200k on the D5 will look much much worse than the already noisy (usable at postage stamp size only) ISO 400k on the A7S(II). Most likely at least 8 times worse… So even for surveillance video purposes (as mentioned on the Nikon website), I see no benefit whatsoever.
Either way, I’m pretty sure the Sony camera department is smiling big time when seeing that presentation. It’s the first time Nikon directly compares its cameras to Sony’s (the level indicator was the clear giveaway) and not just any camera, their new top pro grade camera. Whatever the outcome of that comparison, those mentioned will be flattered. It can only mean that Nikon is feeling the heat, at least in sales.
The irony in the viewfinder comparison is that they didn’t do a movie (the D5 is touted to have many high end video features, including 4K, a first for a Nikon ILC) comparison. Where the OVF shows nothing. 😉
In the end, as much as these excellent beasts differ, there is still some competition from overlap, which will lead to better products for all.
I agree and at present there is little point in any claims for quality. Whether it is just ‘a numbers game’, or it could be a useful option in an emergency we will have to wait and see. I’m curious, but not to the degree I couldn’t wait for many months to see.
This camera may prove to be superbly capable, even the best yet, but it will still be a ‘niche’, likely only used by top pros or the very wealthy. Indeed, I’m a full time pro but I see precious few D4!
Of course – no matter how good the sensor is: we’re recording photon noise. That settings might help some embedded journalist w/o suitable nvg or post processing options. But beyond that it’s about not falling behind Canon in terms of specs.
You don’t seem to realize who buys a large number of these cameras… Nikon sells a lot of cameras to the US government to agencies like the FBI and other government agencies that do surveillance… I would expect they tout that number because they know it will appeal to those niche markets. Hardly any professional photographers are ever going to be shooting at any high ISOs let alone the 3 million mark… But I guarantee that this bit of hype will insure it gets some sales to the government.
In the past the best deals I ever got on cameras and lenses came from government auctions where you can often pick up top of the line Nikon gear that is often hardly used…. I often wondered who actually bought 50mm 1.2 lenses until I started looking at those auction sites and then it became clear the government isn’t just buying 500 dollar toilet seats they are also buying high end camera equipment.
ISO 400k already turns night into daylight. So I reiterate what I said above, ISO 3200k won’t add anything meaningful here either, except 8 times more noise. In fact, I’m willing to bet that’s all you’ll see.
You expect more noise… You don’t actually know how much as the camera hasn’t been handed over to anyone to really test. I’m much more certain that the numbers will make it a more appealing camera to government agencies that don’t bother looking at the quality of images as much as some bureaucrat will look at the high ISO and simply say we have to get this.
I know a couple of physics and facts already. In very low light, it’s the shadows that count the most, or shadow noise specifically. Midtones and highlights are defined mostly by the quantum efficiency and photon noise (the latter is part of the light itself). The quantum efficiency of RGB Bayer color sensors like in the A7S is little over half a stop away from the theoretical max. The shadow noise, critical for the purpose you mention, is shaped by the read noise, which is already well below 1 electron in the A7S (down to 0.4 e-).
Even if Nikon manages to get it that low too at ultra high ISO’s, their end result will be worse because there’s more pixels, leading to more total read noise. In other words, they won’t find a stop there either, let alone 3. Their D4S sensor was up to 1.3 EV behind the A7S in terms of shadow noise. Between generations, progress is on average 1/3 to 1/2 EV. Even best case scenario, you have to believe in elves and Santa, to expect more than 1 stop, let alone 4. And every stop higher, is still a doubling of the noise, ceteris paribus. So yes, manually amplify the 400k results of an A7S 3 more stops and you get a good idea of what a mess to expect, at best.
And for the record, the D500 lists 1.6 million ISO too, 4 stops above any of their other APS-C sensors, still 2 stops above the most efficient FF sensors. What I wrote above, applies here too, in fact, even more so (shadow noise will be at least 1.3 stops higher than the D5 at the same ISO).
Cool. Got a link to those sites?
lol ignorance is bliss. the equipment government agencies use tend to be on the lower end. they can’t afford using a 6k lens on a 6.5k body.
it’s like the layman who things spy stores sell good gear… besides lawmate it’s all Asian unreliable junk being resold for profit.
You must be from some European country, because in the US the government pisses away lots of money on high end electronic equipment and cameras… I’ve snagged several high end lenses for a fraction of their actual value that had very little use.
I don’t know worked with an fbi spin team and they were using a d300 and 300 f4… kinda fail. but I could be wrong there are some well funded agencies.
It just depends on the budgets… picked up some very good stuff that had been used by the department of agriculture (several Nikon 50mm 1.2s and some Nikon cameras that had been converted to IR) and military surplus has also been very good (picked up several Leica kits that came with the bodies and multiple prime lens in each kit and only one of the kits looked like it had ever even been used)… Never underestimate the ability of the government to spend money on things they don’t really need.
Good analysis. Funny thing is, pretty much anybody with $6500 to spend on a camera body is already going to understand that comparing mirrorless to a sports beast like this is apples to oranges.
Given most Nikon sensors are manufactured by Sony, I’ll just wait till it gets incorporated into an A7S series body…
who cares about the sensor? The whole camera (and system and service!) are what counts for those who buy those cameras!
On the Nikon Website they say the ISO 3 million thing is for surveillance camera shots. So the quality will be godawful. We will see if it outperforms A7RII/A7SII in lowlight. Just because you can set it doesn’t mean you can use it 😉
Ah, that makes sense and explains a great deal!
Why does it matter to anyone where Sony stands in the camera market. All you should be concerned about is, do you like your Sony camera and do you like your lenses and accessories. If so, good, let Sony keep making them. If not, then buy something else.
No, dont like it. But the thing is, dislike the competition even more…
So, you dislike all camera manufacturers? How about going fishing? Ever thought about?
Good idea 😉 no, I don’t dislike the manufacturers, but the products they have to offer. There are certainly very good products out there, but not for me. I have tried many different cameras but it never felt just right. Sony cameras are closest to what I am looking for.
Nah, that’s not fun! This is kind of like a soap opera, where we tune in each week to see who’s sleeping with whom, or who has more megapixels or ISO or cross-focus points! Just good old-fashioned entertainment. Nothing wrong with that.
Explain, then, why you’re reading a Sony “Rumors” site.
“Money makes the world go ’round”. That’s no less true in digital imaging then it is everywhere else. Sony’s desire to make money is what drives the innovation which goes into the cameras we want. If Sony is on top it will continue innovating and producing. If it falls behind and starts losing money, it will abandon cameras and devote its attention and resources to some other money making widget
A cautionary tale. I had a Sony automotive GPS once. It was a slick little unit. But others (particularly Garmin) were making better units and Sony just couldn’t keep up on sales. In any event, one day, Sony just turned out the lights on that Division. The GPS continued to work great, but without map updates it soon became obsolete.
If Sony can’t keep up with Canon and Nikon in the competition for the hearts and minds (and pocketbooks) of camera consumers, the same thing could happen and Sony will no longer be making the cameras we all want. It has to work hard to be competitive because that is the only way it can make money in this endeavor.
Good points.
Similar story, much more recent and probably more relevant: Sony made NEX camcorders with exchangeable lenses: the VG10, VG20 and VG30. Then they seemed to have dropped that idea and consequently stopped all support for them – or maybe it wasn’t there to start with.
I bought a used VG20 recently. Many of the current E-mount lenses cannot be used, because Sony never bothered to update the firmware of a camera line that is actually quite recent. If they can do that with the VG series, who is to say they wouldn’t thay do that with any other series?
Where Sony stands in the market determines how seriously they will be taken by (semi-)professionals. If there is even a minor indication that Sony will not continue supporting a certain product line because they are not actually dedicated to their market segment as others are, nobody will want to make large investments into such a system.
Exactly right. If I learned that lesson sooner, I might be a Canon or Nikon shooter today.
“The Sony press conference will start at 5pm Las Vegas time”
… and reveal nothing more than a laugh…
you’re probably right. but the nikon announcement gives some hope that sony might someday respond. sony cameras still got a lota maturing to do. been waiting for years and still waiting.
it’s so childish and pathetic to compare D5 with just “mirrorless” generally – is it representative? Did they take own N1 samples for that or what? The whole speech is just brazen sermon. It’s pity – reading this news I did really hope that nikon announced a real and serious competition
The standard ISO “only” goes to 102,400. Anything beyond that is just digitally amplified and is the equivalent of push processing in PP. Having said that, going to about 3m ISO from 102,400 is adding 5 EV, which is rather a lot. The quality is going to be dreadful, not because there will be anything wrong with the sensor or camera, but simply because there there will not be enough photons to give anything approaching decent DR.
You’re overlooking the potential for low level processing. ie, Pentax has proven how effective this can be by pushing their APS-C sensors into FF performance territory.
“..only…” LOL
So, what? Who has better standard ISO? A7S? I really doubt that.
But we’ll see how it performes. For now, we have only some specs.
D500 = 2.2 crop in 4k. LOL. Thanks Nikon..
But it is Nikon, so it should be awesome!
The curse of the “500”. The NX500 was crippled the same way.
I’ve read a couple of comments that 4K recording on the D5 is limited to a couple of minutes? Is that just trolling or does someone have a source for that?
It’s true. On the specs page. See my screenshot in the comment I just left above.
Sony needs a DSLR with flipping mirror like they need a hole in the head. DSLRs are not the future. Put the 4.1mp EVF in a pro A7 with 4K @60fps and UHS-II support.
Indeed DSLR is living in the past. Who wants moving parts and focus calibration nonsense. A decent EVF gives so much more.
Who gives a damn if there is a moving part or not? Do you care about all possible specs in your car?
wrong crowd. At the Olympic stadium, there are more other priorities than EVF.
I’m not doubting Sony’s capacity to release a body to compete for the same market, though they just don’t have the lenses to finish with.
Nikon released D5 in time for Summer Olympics. 100% sure Canon 1DX replacement will come soon, as they have to get it in hands of the pros for Summer Olympics in Rio. Would be a show off of whose AF system is better 🙂
Three whole minutes of 4K recording! Game-changing!
Well, I guess we don’t have to worry about overheating.
Well, the D5 does have the thermal mass of the Hoover Dam as well, so there’s that.
I wonder how much it weighs against my A7R ii w/grip?
It weighs about 3 pounds, or 1.5kg.
To achieve similar battery life you need a few more batteries for A7R2 as well.
So… The RX100 IV records longer 4K clips than the D5? Wow
And apparently the D500, while capable of recording up to 30 minutes in 4K, still breaks down the saved files into 3 minute segments. This might have been acceptable when 4K was in its infancy 2-3 years ago, but considering what’s on the market now, both of these cameras are a true embarrassment.
And with 2.2 crop.
People aren’t going to be buying the D5 for video. That’s a sports camera all the way. I’m glad Nikon isn’t planning features around video.
Video recording is a great feature to have, but only as long as it doesn’t impact it’s original function – still photography.
True, but the D500 is more of an all-around so the fact that, reportedly, the 30 minute max 4K clips are stored as 3-minute file segments is pretty bad. The D5 having only 3 minutes of 4K looks bad on paper and makes you wonder why Nikon couldn’t figure that out on such an expensive camera. But you’re right, it probably won’t deter its intended buyer.
I just don’t understand this unless the camera was rushed and they plan to fix it with a firmware update.
There is a place for the established DSLR systems from Nikon and Canon. Pro shooters who want to rely on a huge system of lenses (that are on rent in every major city), pro flash system with wireless TTL, a 100% reliable AF and durable bodies who can be used in almost every circumstance every day without breaking. (My A7rII got round marks after the first time I screwed it on my little old trypod, this is more than an average DSLR after years of use).
I have chosen my A7rII for what it is, but if I were a working pro or a wildlife shooter etc., I’d not have chosen it. I do not want to go back to DSLRs, but then again: I am a pure enthusiast who only shoots in nice weather.
As long as it’s cat fur resistant then I consider the camera pro for my uses.
i wonder what “mirrorless camera” they used at this point in the video. looks like a cellphone picture https://youtu.be/3oQM4ZixPVU?t=553
They are afraid after all…
Awesome camera. It’s cool how they let you choose either dual XQD or dual Compact Flash. For either videographers or photographers I guess.
It’s great to see Nikon investing in the future of APS-C like this. If Sony doesn’t release a serious upgrade to the a6000 by spring (and despite the red hot rumors here, I’m still really skeptical) then maybe I have to go back to Nikon DX. Because there’s no way in h@!! I’m buying into the FF hysteria.
If Samsung wanted to they could come out with a pro version of the NX1 to make the D500 look like a boat anchor.
Man, you just hate Nikon! Why? Did they ever hurt you?
Hurt? Nikon knows how to hurt.
http://www.viva.org.uk/what-we-do/never-nikon
Do you really try to say Samsung didn’t want to bring out as successful camera?
Some folks seem really confused these days.
Why not Fuji? Best DX primes and zooms out there at the moment.
Fuji is revealing their X-Pro2 in 9 days. It’s going to be a decent camera and is certainly anticipated by the Fuji fans, but spec-wise it’s already outclassed by most of last year’s cameras from Nikon and Sony. They have another chance to get ahead of the curve with the X-T2 which is just in rumor phase at this point. I shoot with an X-T1 and like it, but still have gear envy for some of the newest cameras with stabilization…
Does anyone think Sony reads these comments?
no, otherwise we would have a better menu system
Nice
LOL true
Not really, I told them it’s ok right now. Clearly they listened.
I’m pretty sure they, or at least some of them, read it, but they don’t care.
ISO of 3,280,000 is a joke. The A7s II will still beat this in low light.
Nobody really needs to shoot at asa 300000. Unless you are a journalist who can’t use a flash or lights there is not much need to ever shoot at that ASA. The Nikon D2-3-4 are some of the greatest digital cameras every made so I’m sure this new one will make Sony up it’s game too. I own a Sony A7s and it’s a nice camera but I never need to shoot above say 6400, when I do in natural or lack of light it starts looking pretty raunchy. If anybody wants to trade their Nikon D3s for my A7s you’re on!
It’s Olympic year. You’ll need all the speed, weather proof, and ISO you can get. Will leave the Sony in the hotel room
Many sensors are “isoless” these days.
Um you don’t quite seem to get what “isoless” means. It means noise (readout noise) is not influenced by iso setting, not that high isos are good. Of course, better sensors go closer to being isoless and have less noise, but there is no direct relationship.
I mean it’s meaningless debating over these insanely high software “gain” (scaling). Hardware gain has less “tiers” than software scaling. Why even bother. You could apply the same scaling on your computer.
How do you know? Have you tried the D5?
A7s II only has CDAF. It’s essentially a video camera. No comparison to D5.
ISO 409,600 was a joke too.
Not as much as the 5D @ 3,280,000 iso.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5768/22653706155_80b9c5f356_o.png
Possibly. But I have not seen any images fron the D5. Have you?
No, but I am sure there will be high iso low light images posted soon.
The salient question for me is whether the D5 can produce a useable image at 3200 or 6400 iso, and if so, how clean is it.
I’ll stick with my two A7rII bodies, two card slots, dual angle 4k shooting 🙂
18mp in crop mode
LOL… takes two a7rII’s to make “two” card slots.
Only takes one pro camera to do that.
Lol, obviously not a video shooter
dual angle shooting with one pro camera… Good luck! FACEPALM
The insecurity in this thread is unprecedented. 🙂
Yes, Nikon built a camera that is better than any Sony for a specific market.
That said, I doubt the D5 will ever encroach on Sony’s mirrorless market. Though their next models might give them a run for their money as Nikon will no doubt go on the defensive in response to Sony’s recent cross platform strategy.
Translated: Let’s hope this prompts Sony to release an A99 successor 😀
Haha, obviously when shooting an NFL game at 12fps, the D5 with an optical viewfinder is ideal. But for the other 99.9% of shooters, being able to see your exposure before you shoot is hugely more beneficial.
However, Its about perseption and visuals. The 99.9% of the spectators and audience are viewing the sidelines and the end zone camera men and photogs. Different type of photography. Different tools. I love my A7sII and X-t1, however I’m not using them to shoot world class 100m sprint races. Wrong tools. It would be kinda foolish.
I would say that 4k RAW at 60fps is much better.
That’s what I think too !
I’m sure Sony can come up with an A99II ( or aven an A9 ) that surpasses those specs, and for less money than Nikon D5’s huge US$6,500.00!
not sure, but anyone who needs professional video quality with smooth af will be better served with the latest A7rII/A7sII and a few native lenses. These two Nikon’s are sports cameras, OVF, 10/12fps, improved tracking. Olympic year.
You’re right. But this is just about a different market. A different budget. Not Sony’s ballgame here. Nikon has basically told Sony to pull up a seat and watch this summer
Yes, Sony doesn’t have a sports camera, but hey, they can they watch it on a Sony screen 🙂
You mean Samsung screen! Nobody buys Sony TV’s anymore
you are lies. the sale number still counting…
I’m curious if all the Canon and Nikon pros will wear these Sony Alpha vests again. 😀
I’m sure they can, but it would still not even remotely comparable to a D5.
If you ask me, Sony should stick with the A7 (plus A5/A9 in the future) line.
If it does, it will always be just a niche player in this industry. Maybe that’s OK with Sony. I think we are going to find out soon.
Kneekon AF is fast. Even the mighty Panasonic DFD doesn’t even come near to Kneekon AF. So, for sports photography, buy Kneekon.
Nikon D5… Yawn… next please… 😀
Sleep on this camera if you like . . . I hope Sony is wide awake!
It is the same old D3 with a little more horsepower really… BOOOORINGGG.
Well, I suppose, if all you do is sit in a studio and take pretty pictures of things that don’t move . . .
The only thing it does better than the d3 is taking pictures of bats in flight at night 🙂 can’t wait to see your album of those. 🙂
But seriously I don’t see what makes your pants so wet about this that you come to a sony focused site and try to convince us mostly mirrorless shooters that we have to ditch or cameras for this. (Heading back to my basement taking pretty pictures of things don’t move – like dead rats @ss I give about this camera)
Chill Peter. Way to aggressive. I didn’t insult your mother or anything.
I do take “pictures of bats at night.” Just not the kind you mean. Baseball bats and players, and not always under favorable lighting. So ISO performance is important to me. So is fast and accurate AF, FPS, buffer, ergonomics, battery life, native mounting of my lenses and weather proofing. The D5 and cameras like it are too blithely dismissed by commenters here who don’t have those same needs.
I’m not pulling for Nikon. If I were I would just buy a D5. I’m pulling for Sony. So if I am “wet” for anything, it is for a remotely equivalent Sony to the d5.
This didn’t use to be an e-mount site. It used to be a Sony site and until a few years ago Sony was mostly about a-mount.
Don’t get mad at me just because I am pulling for Sony to produce a camera that meets my needs. As long as Sony is only building studio cameras it is neglecting a significant part of its loyal customers. You’ve got yours. I am hoping that Sony will build mine. OK?
I’m not mad at you trust me 😉 But I think you are wasting your time waiting for Sony’s answer to the sport photography needs. And here I am wasting my own time trying to convince you about that which is obviously not possible… it is your time so go ahead and waste it some more.
Only time will tell. And we should know the answer soon. The a99 replacement is a mythological creature to some. But if Sony does come out with a high end a-mount (or a series of high end a-mounts) I believe they are going to turn some heads.
But I have no illusions about converting existing Canon and Nikon system owners over to Sony no matter how good the camera. They are as locked into their systems as I am to Sony’s. New converts are what is needed and Sony has a poor track record there.
That said, I won’t be wasting my time too much longer. My a77mii serves my needs well enough for now, but unless Sony comes across with a fast full frame a-mount pretty soon, I am going to have to dump my a-mount stuff and head over to the dark side. I hate being a “joiner” but Sony will have left me little choice.
Anyone remember when 1600ASA was considered “high speed?” …holyhellwhathappened?! 0_0
When I used Kodak T-Max 3200 for the first time, I was in heaven and I thought I would never ever need more sensitivity. LOL.
Nikon still doesn’t get it. All that tech and it still only has an optical viewfinder and no in-body stabilization. Sad.
They have stabilization in the lens. Works just as well. OVF suits the speedy body better than EVF.
sorry, wrong comment
Sorry, wrong choice.
That may have been true 5 years ago, but not today. EVF technology surpasses optical viewfinders in every way and adds important capabilities for photographers. Nikon made a critical mistake by not putting a state of the art EVF in the D5.
Just a precautionary question, to prevent me from insulting you unintentionally: Are you blind?
If yes, I’m very sorry, but you shouldn’t talk about viewfinders then.
The quality of state of the art EVFs is still terrible compared to state of the art OVFs. They have other advantages, no doubt, but they are still in their infancy.
You appear to be biased toward OVF. I wouldn’t call EVF terrible at all and there are situations where EVF surpasses OVF, as well as situations where OVF surpasses EVF. However to claim that OVF is superior in all respects is just not true.
About 100 years ago, photographers with rangefinder don’t even have viewfinder and they could take famous pictures that last so many years. Eventually it’s a practical issue. Even with lagging EVF you could take it to sports games, as long as you can live with it.
Personally, this is not a deal breaker for me as I find both enjoyable to use.
I’m sure they will be crying when they pick up the next camera of the year award.
In your dreams. The D5 is outdated even before it hits the market.
Its not my dream, but it IS your nightmare.
I too think it is outdated but it is not for us to decide; the market decides ! let’s wait and see the market’s decision.
I’m sorry, at native 100k ISO and expandable 3m ISO， why do we need body IS？
because iso 1600 still looks better than iso 3200 :o)
Nikon gets it and they focused on their strength, with that frame rate and the weight of the body you don’t need stabilization but you do need an ovf
Absolutely right. It seems most people can’t imagine the existence of concurrent systems. One have always to be the successor of all others. Only on who’s right. Only one who survive.
Thank god (or should I say Leica), there are still rangefinders in production. And thank god, Nikon is still doing what they do best.
I can’t imagine why Nikon would want to handicap a professional photographer with outdated technology when the technology exists to make a camera that would help them take better photographs. Nikon has dropped the ball big time with the D5.
Did you ever tried to think in the opposite direction? What if it’s not Nikon who tries to “handicap” their customers, but the customers who want to “handicap” themselves with these obsolete viewfinder? What if there are people out there, who prefer an OVF for their work? Surprise, surprise…
To make a long story short: I disagree. I think did exactly what D5 customers wanted to see in a D4S successor. If Nikon would have tried to attract some random SAR reader who likes EVFs (nothing bad about that), then they would have dropped the ball.
To say a professional camera “needs” an OVF is pure nonsense. EVF technology has advanced to the point where it is now superior to optical viewfinders in every practical way. There is no photographer on the planet who would not benefit from the ability to fine tune their exposure in real time in the viewfinder. Nikon blew a golden opportunity with the D5.
Isn’t that the photographers decision? Mike is one. And a good one too. If he wants an OVF, he wants an OVF. End of story.
For professionals it is the better choice. Professionals don’t need stabilisation except there exists a VR version because professionals have calm hands. And professionals know the camera-settings so good that they don’t need a preview before taking a picture.
Lense stibilization and high FPS
“…still only has an optical viewfinder…. ” LMFAO
I would rather say some armchair scientists don’t get it.
There’s no reason today that a camera intended for professionals should not have those features that would help a photographer take better photographs. EVF technology has advanced to the point where it surpasses optical viewfinders in every important way. There’s no excuse for a professional camera not to have a state of the art EVF–a feature that lets a photographer fine tune the exposure on the fly with every shot. It makes no sense. The same is true for in-body stabilization. It helps photographers take better photographs with any lens they care to mount on the camera. There’s no reason not to have it, just as there’s no reason to ride in a horse and buggy on the freeway when you can ride in an automobile. Nikon is way behind the curve with the D5. They had an opportunity to make a truly remarkable camera body for professionals and they blew it.
“…features that would help a photographer take better photographs…”
Who defines what features these are? You? I make better photographs with an OVF.
It is not sad, it is better and it will sell like hot cakes !
Both Nikon D5 and the D500 shoot 4K only for 3 Minutes!!! You have to wonder whey they even bothered!!! Its Funny…
and where exactly did you see that?
Go to the D500 specs page. Search for 4K. You’ll find it.
It’s also noted in the D5 specs as well.
you have got to be joking…
D500 can shot for 29,59 minutes of uninterrupted UHD video, only D5 is limited to 3 minutes of UHD video.
Not according to Nikon:
Exactly according to Nikon is 29,59 at page 6: http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/d500/common/pdf/technology-digest.pdf
Maybe they copy pasted the 3 minutes from the D5 in a hurry.
This is interesting indeed… Contradicting info!
I think the info on the site is wrongly copied from D5.
Anyway, the real problem is the 1,46 crop factor in 4K relative to the sensor size, which translates into 2,23 x crop for D500. I thought it was a joke when I first read about it, but now I think Nikon was hit in the head wen decided upon those specs. 🙁
BUT with a 2.2 crop.
But why I still have that feeling, that both cameras will sell like hotcakes?
i think that might be a typo/mistake. I believe they both shoot 30 mins saved in 3 minute long files.
Seems like an awesome camera. Interesting to see a new 1DX II now…
153 AF points (real PDAF, not OSPDAF!) and 20Mp sensor!
THAT’s the way to go Sony – lower res, higher speed, top AF, weather-sealing, fast lenses. No bogus “compactness”.
At their current rate, Sony could be presenting A99 IV at this show… instead of surrendering their 17% market share to Canikon.
If they’re serious about replacing DSLR with mirrorless, this A9 needs to come soon. Otherwise… Sony are so far behind, I don’t know how they can bounce back with A-Mount.
why don’t you simply buy a D5 and be happy?
It’s not an EVF camera
OVF? Even better then ^.^
BTW, Sony has never had global 17% share in DSLRs, maybe only in some local markets
3min 4k, that the way to go!
Exact ! Isn’t that D5 greatness ? It may be a typo though…
“…17%…” LOL
What’s so funny? It’s true. Sony had 17% market share in DSLR.
Well, it depends on the source. The highest figures I have seen were in the 12-14% range. I doubt they are realistic. The lowest figures are around 7%.
Market research and analysis firm BCN even states in his 2015 report only 2% DSLR market share in Japan.
To be honest I’m completely unsure which statistics can be taken serious, but 17% sounds laughable to me. Period.
It doesn’t matter what sounds laughable to you. It’s simply a fact, using official Sony press conference.
http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2008/09/10/alpha-900-launch-press-conference-part-1/
These are EU-only figures. And they come from Sony. Yery trustworthy. Independent statistics are BS. Sony marketing never lies. ROLLEYES
Well, in A200-A300-A350-A700-A900 time they had over 30% in some EU Countries, no joke. The same time they had the best compact zooms 16-80 and 16-105 which Canon and Nikon couldn’t compete.
I believe that if Sony is going to “bounce back” it is going to have to be with a-mount. In the USA, I can’t see the a7 platform, even dressed up as an “a9”, ever being viewed as anything other than a niche product. As much as people on this forum want to believe otherwise, the DSLR form factor still rules the earth. If Sony could produce a mirrorless D5, they might well be able to make significant inroads on Canon and Nikon’s dominance. But I doubt very much that that the a7 form factor will ever will.
I don’t believe the “pseudo-compact” bodies will get much traction either.
But, there’s nothing that prevents Sony from releasing an A9 in DLSR form factor. In fact, they’ve already done so with A3500.
For me at least, e-mount would be a deal breaker. Maybe not for others.
And how well did the A3500 sell? ?
Funny you should mention the A3500. I have the A3000 which is pretty much the same and love it. I would be the first to say that it has serious limitations, but if Sony put A6000 capabilities into a weatherproofed A3000 body, I think they would have a real winner.
Very exciting new AF module is the takeaway feature about the D5, not some software-gain fake ISO setting. Sony fans, like Sony themselves, really don’t have much idea what serious photographers need and want, do they? I thought they hadn’t released an A9 because they didn’t think a pro camera would have a large enough market to be worth the effort, but the more I see the more I think they just have no idea what such a camera would need to be.
Everyone’s focused on the bodies, but what I really took notice of was the new (SB-5000) flash, which now has built-in RF triggering capability, which Canon and Nikon both now have. I wish Sony would get with it and give us a comparable flash system.
I agree, sonys flash design is the best but the actual flash kinda sucks in use compared to the competition. I don’t even own a native sony flash any more.
I have the 60, but pretty much only use it for on-camera TTL. For everything else I use manual, third-party flashes. As you say, the physical implementation of their flash heads is brilliant (love that swivel!), but otherwise severely lacking.
Yes Sony flashes sux no radio and the only option is nissin radio flash!
That is exactly my thought, too.
Combined with the new remote adapter for the camera it is capable of working in six groups with up to 18 flashes.
Competition? lol. Sony a7 cameras can NOT compete with the D5. Sony Mirrorless is, for now, IMO, not much more than an aps/photodisc like trend. If Sony can put their tech into a D5 like body then they might be better placed to take over but they are dragging their heels and it will be too late soon. There is no hope in hell I will ever shoot with one of those toy Sony’s on a serious job.
Well, that depends on the job.
Agreed though, that there is no, and never was a Sony camera that could even remotely compete with a D3/D4/D5. And to be honest, I don’t think they could ever make one.
I guess the only way Sony could compete with this body category on the A7 platform is, if they manage to do complete electronic shutter (without trade offs, full 14 or soon to be 16 bit) so that the on sensor phase detection pixels can continously evaluate focus. I do not think that sony would struggle with the signal processing performance of a such focused body.
Of course they can (there’s no sorcery involved here, even viewfinder blackout and lag can be nullified for any practical speed purpose, as per Sony patents, but at a cost $$$$), the question is whether that would be beneficial for Sony. At this point, most likely not (small target market, large investments, for one because it requires instant addition of many long high quality tele lenses, a much larger pro support program etc.). That may gradually change in the future though, or not.
They could, but then they’d commit supukku when they realize their margins will be crushed on it compared to consumer level quality.
Fascinating. I bring my toy Sony camera for every serious job I’ve had since I bought my a7II, and use it a LOT. But I don’t shoot sports, so it’s no big deal. If I was shooting sports, I’d get a D3s, D4…or if I wanted to spend the money, a D5 and a D500.
As it is, the D750 is a killer camera, which perfectly compliments my a7II, so I have no want or desire for D5 or D500.
This year I plan on selling the a7II and getting a pair of a7rII bodies, and maybe an a7sII to go along with my D750. Then my D750 get relegated to being an emergency back-up.
Why so many whining about the overblown ISO figure? It’s the same as others do in their marketing. Sony did it on the A7S with totally unusable iso 400k, and now Nikon.
What really counts, is how it performs in low light, not by how much the maximum ISO figure is overblown, right?
We’ll see.
A factor 8 (D5) or 16 to 32 (D500) difference, is hardly “the same”.
It’s the difference between questionable and unquestionably insane.
D5 and A7S may have the same native ISO range up to 102,400, but we still have to see how the D5 performes at this value.
We’ll see.
Native or not native, that’s really arbitrary (more marketing). Some falsely believe that above native, cameras switch to digital amplification. This may be true for Canon, it usually hasn’t been true for Nikon, Sony, Fuji and Pentax for many years (where the switch to digital amplification was often between ISO1000 and 1600 on most crop bodies, according to measurements, about 1 stop higher on FF). The reason hardly anyone knows this, or cares for that matter, is because you usually can’t really tell the difference between digital and analogue gain for those cameras at high ISO’s. IIRC, the Pentax K5 did most of its ISO amplification through digital gain and it was at the time one of the best high ISO APS-C performers (until the point where built in RAW NR killed the party).
The D7000 as an example explained here:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/37590422
And then there are 2 different ways of digital amplification too. There’s the multiplying of binary data in camera before writing the RAW file, or the one relying on medata and having the RAW converter do the rest under the hood. The latter is for example used by certain Fujifilm cameras. The X100 for example uses this above ISO 1600, which also explains the “flat liner” in the DXO sensitivity measurements, since DXO does not account for digital amplification (or metadata) done by the converter (invisible to the user). The benefit of this last method, is that a lot more highlight information can be retained, otherwise thrown away before writing the RAW file. Similar to exposing at a lower ISO with the same physical aperture and shutterspeed and doing the amplification by hand in the converter.
As a side note, most camera makers rely on a combination of digital gain and analogue gain (which can also have several stages or methods, see A7RII, different discussion), even at lower ISO’s, for example to compensate for transmission losses/differences. Sony has used it in some cameras to compensate for the SLT mirror too (similar to the second method described above).
TL;DR:
In the end it’s not what makers label “native” (or not) that matters (more marketing), it’s the noise.
That was more or less my best guess too. Honestly I don’t care how they do it internally. I only care about the results. The 5D has ISO 3200 max. and it is totally usable. Today, the max ISO of most cameras is not usable.
But who cares how the A7S looks at ISO 409600? What matters is, that it has crazy high usable ISO values. And it seems the D5 will be the first camera that plays in the same league.
I hate the reaction to the 3M ISO. It’s the first thing mentioned everywhere. I sometimes can’t believe how stupid photographers are. And all the news and rumor sites play this silly marketing game.
Don’t misunderstand me. H5 is a usefull feature. But it’s a liveview feature!…not an attribute of its low-light performance. It’s great for focusing and composition in the dark (astrophotography or ND). But anything beyond ISO25’600 is silly for actual photos on a FF CMOS (for me anything beyond ISO 400-800 is garbage…talking about the low-light “kings”)
D500 only films in 2.2 crop mode when 4k filming.
http://www.eoshd.com/2016/01/nikon-d500-with-super-35mm-4k-video/
WHAT A JOKE! That might be even smaller than m43.
…cause people get a D5 for video…
Exact, people get a D5 for video but with a maximum duration of 3 minutes video recording… Have a look at the D5 specs and you’ll see.
Isn’t that great ?
No doubt the D5 is a very different animal compared to the current A7 series.
No doubt the D5 is a different purpose camera compared to the current A7 series.
No doubt Sony today have no camera targeting the same segment as D5 does. That does not mean Sony cannot build such camera – it is about timing! Eating into the rough ride pro journalist/animal/sport photo segment is not only about one camera. Sony needs to build a larger customer base with cameras and lenses that sell well to fund further product development. It also needs to increase the value of its brand in the photo world.
My guess is a complete hard core pro system should be timed to 3-5 years.
Sony should offer a 1DX/D5 competitor now. Why Wait 3-5 years to offer such a camera? Sony creates customer base from offers they bring now, not from offers they could bring in the future. Fund development? Sony got plenty of money, no need to wait for a larger customer base to then fund development. After all, we’re talking about a high price / low volume sales camera.
C’mon Sony… it’s Olympics year! Sony should bring a 1DX/D5 competitor and another D750/5Dmk.3 competitor along with a new telephoto lens available in March prior to the Olympics.
Sony failed miserably with the launch of the a77m2. Sony was a major official partner of FIFA World Cup 2014 and they had new high speed camera available and they did nothing to promote it on their own sponsored event. I believe the only photog they sent was Brian Smith and he only took a few shots with the a77m2 from the crowd. Sony should have sent a real sports photographer and have him or her shoot from the field, not from the crowd.
Oh well…it’s Sony after all, I shouldn’t expect good things from them. Better take my a7M2 and a850 and take some photos to forget about this for a moment.
There’s no way a Sony camera would make people switch in time for the Olympics…
It can be a 50mp 4mil ISO with 20fps RAW and 10 seconds buffer, it won’t happen.
Haha… I like Nikon, but they always seems last to the party. Anyway… the quote “80yo innovation” is a contradictio in terminis….
Preordered the D5. Sony doesn’t have anything that can touch this beast
Perhaps but video recording time is limited to 3 minutes…
as with all new products..i suggest letting others be the testing field and “QA team” before buying any new thing out there.
its a general rule of thumb but usually one has to wait at least 2 months worth of reports on any new equipment before actually knowing how good it really is on reality rather then promo movies on youtube
I have a D800 and D7000. The auto focus is quick on both but both were highly susceptible to front and back focus issues particularly in low light. Frustrated with missed shots. I picked up the original A7 because I wanted to take the focusing into my own hands and manual focusing is not as easy on these Nikon bodies. I now have the A7r2 and I think it focuses much better than either of the Nikons and I have more options with manual focus. Maybe Nikon as fixed their focusing issues but it’s gonna take me a while to trust them. Obviously the A7r2 is not a Sports camera like the D5 but I’m not even slightly interested in the D5.
Whoever in SAR said, there will never be a D400 was right ^^
People like you are plainly annoying!!
What we need now is a consurmer dslr in the D700 style body with such a sensor and an affordable price range.
impressive…finally an actual NEW camera instead of just another iteration .
kudos for nikon for stepping up ….now lets see how sony gets us something on par .
competition is good …and not a tear shed for canon being left behind by its own antiquated customs
Well, I think the skin tone rendering on jpg was just excellent both in Sony A700 and A900. Later cameras (A500, A580, NEX) gave strange results, so I threw them out. How it is with second generation A7, A77 and A99? Is it worth to replace still good A700/A900 ?
a99 has some pretty nice WB rendering especially with flash – the camera is good for slow work and is not capable of replacing a900 for reportage style of work. I would get a99 for pleasure and keep both a900 and a99 as they complement each other nicely.