3D-Kraft.com commented yesterdays rumor about Sony’s Full Frame roadmap and showed an example of camera Sony should do. You may read it:
“Take the base concept of the RX1, add the EVF of the A99, replace the fixed lens by an E-Mount and replace the 24 MP sensor by the AA-filterless 36 MP sensor currently produced for the D800E. Modify the sensor (and propably the cooling as well) so that it can be read out with 60p (for 1080p60). Start with at least one fullframe capable E-Mount lens (e.g. a modified Zeiss lens for Alpha) and the rest will be adapted as until there are enough other E-Mount FF lenses become available.
That will be the moment where I sell all my Nikon stuff.”
SonyAlphaRumors is read by plenty of Nikon and Canon camera owners. My question for them (and also for Sony owners for course) is:
[poll id=”129″]
Sony is working on the new FF cameras and they may be curious to read your opinion about that kind of “camera tech”.
171 Responses
Nice idea, except the e-mount part. Make it a-mount and no waiting for lenses and modern Zeiss as well as legacy minolta already available
Have you seen the Pentax K-01?
E-mount is a no brainer. You want to use a mount on which you can adapt virtually any lens.
You can transform it to A-mount simply by connecting an adapter.
Why everyone keeps saying that you will be able to use plenty of lenses for an FF E-Mount camera?
AFAIK there’re currently NO FF E-Mount lenses, they are all for APS-C..
Plenty of lenses that fit E-mount:
1) Nikon F
2) Canon EF
3) Canon FD
4) Contax/Yashica
5) Contax G
6) Leica M
7) Leica R
8) Hasselblad V (If you want)
9) Contax 645 mount (If you want)
10) m39
11) m42
12) C mount (if you find lenses that don’t vignett)
13) Last but not least, any Alpha/minolta lens
Easily more than 100 lenses there. You should have enough.
Most of us want a snappy af. leaves us with alpha + translucent mirror adaptor. good enough solution I think.
They fit as much as M42 fits on A-mount. Your list changes exactly nothing.
And if you have a lot of say Canon FF glass, why would you buy this camera, put an adapter and use your Canon FF lenses on it??? Doesn’t it make more sense to actually use those lenses on your FF canon body with full and fast AF, big and bright OVF, etc…?
And why would Sony produce a camera for you to use your Canon glass on it????
People should get real. If Sony really wants to introduce a mirrorless FF system they need to develop a complete new lens line-up for it. If they have to do so, they have two options: using the E-mount or a new mount with a bit bigger flange distance that would allow in-body IS and a bit bigger bodies with smaller lenses (a FF lens on a NEX-7 like body is quite ridiculous), and still get better IQ.
Don’t worry, if you want to adapt those lenses you would still be able to do it, since the flange distance would still be much shorter than current FF mounts.
I don’t think that no one is worried about not being able to use their current 18-55mm E-mount zoom on the new system in crop mode.
+ Konica, Minolta MC-MD …
Easily more than a thousand models that would work well on a FF E-mount camera.
I find manual focussing with peaking more reliable than auto-focus.
What do you mean? You can install a non-E mount lens on an E-mount body? And how is this possible for both Nikon F and Canon EF mounts – those aren’t interchangeable for sure..
Andreas – post author wants compact. For portable camera E-mount is logical choice. For everything else: A-mount is a way to go. That’s logical, and as admin confirmed already: That’s the direction Sony has taken.
I am sure size of the camera should exceed dimensions of leica m. Alpha users want prolike tools. I want 2 dials to control shutter and iris.
Also why is it hard to use good codec? AVCHD is a piece of crap.
Why should Sony implement professional/powerful encoding when it takes such a toll on hardware, when they can just do clean HDMI out, then you can plug your Ninja encoder or whichever device you want.
Please give me any 50p/60p compatible recorder which costs less then 2k.
Why should i need sony if external recorder can be used with nikon or (from april) with 5dm3? Only one reason 50P. So give me ability to use it normally.
I am about to do just that!
Ninja turtles!
AVCHD fixes the issue of needing massive SD cards. Just give clean HDMI out, and the occasional video dabblers stay happy with AVCHD, whereas folks using it for video production use the HDMI out with external storage.
There’s not as much penalty for using AVHD in post as there used to be, especially when Premiere and the like do internal calculations at full floating point accuracy irrespective of the input format, and current CPUs can do the required decompresion for live playback on the fly.
It fixes any ability to do good color during postproduction.
Also you have to be very poor. 64gb sd costs 50$.
isn’t the e-mount ORIGINALY designed for a small size camera body with a good image quality? why do they want an FF… the slt is a good now with an FF lens and body, making another one is a big confusing…
I want an FF NEX to have a camera that will give the full image quality from all the lenses I have, which are in various mounts. (None are A mount and I have no intention of ever buying an A mount lens.)
The sensor currently used in the D800E would do nicely until Sony manage to make a multilayer sensor.
Well, that is your choice. There are some really great lenses in the A mount that rival and exceed the Canikon offerings.
Fullframe and high image quality doesn’t have to imply a large camera. It’s only due to retrofocal and non-retrofocal lens and flange designs in modern DSLR’s that these have become so intertwined in the public’s mind. I’ve got lots of small light full frame lenses (Leica, Zeiss, Voigtlander), that are very capable of high IQ. Some of them like Contax G even do AF and electronic aperture. What doesn’t exist is a simple modern fullframe camera to mount them on.
there should be a balance between camera body and the lens. That is not possible with FF NEX and also E mount can not accommodate IBIS.
Sony has stated that they want to beat Canikon, so they can not afford to start a new lens mount as it takes at least five years to build a viable system. A mount is the only way to go.
Of course a FF NEX will be able accomodate IBIS. They just have to make the body slightly thicker than the current NEX-7 if they want to use the from the Alpha cameras.
I would not mind if the FF NEX got slightly bigger than the NEX-7 (but still smaller than Leica M). Just like the A99 is slightly bigger than the A77.
A thicket NEX body would have a different Flange distance witch means new lenses.
I would love a NEX 7 style body (but bigger) with A mount.
LOL… no, the flange distance wouldnt change with a thicker body, a Nex-FS700 has a thicker body with the same flange distance, right?
The current E-mount flange distance cannot accommodate In Body Image Stabilization based on current technology. I hope they’re working on the technology for that, as it will be incredibly valuable if they can eventually make that happen.
@Judd – It is not us to say if the current Sony IBIS can’t be fitted due to the flange distance or the overall bodythickness.
As you said, adjusting the IBIS technology and just make the body a few mm thicker should not be a problem.
Sony can do a of exciting things with the camera, namely an Android system with all kinds of app, Internet connection, modular body…..etc. Just get rid of that SLT mirror.
Camera running Android… oh my god… it’s like… worst of the worse.
No way. I really love the IBIS on my A99. I think its one of the biggest bonuses that Sony have on their cameras. Everything else sounds great though. I do not think E mount makes any sense to make a brand new set of FF lenses. Think about it.
” I do not think E mount makes any sense to make a brand new set of FF lenses. Think about it.”
I have thought about it. Three primes, say 25mm 50mm and 135mm, would be plenty. The rest can be supplied by Sigma and others, and from legacy lenses.
Sony is not primarily an optical company. They would be better leaving lenses to others.
Don. Sony has glass that rivals and exceeds the Canikon offerings. Sony bought Minolta Glass and therefore they can produce some great optics. Please stop bashing because you do not like Sony.
I want fast and accurate focus and durable battery. This isn’t providing either of those.
FF Nex with IBIS. That’s something I’d want for sure.
But, then, if Sony ever does that, I can already hear people whinning “OH, but that camera is not pocketable? What’s the point of an ILC system if you can fit in your pocket? The horror, the horror!!”.
🙂
Where did the “Edit” option go?!?
We had to remove it because of javascript issues. Thinking on a new solution now…
They need to make something, the fact is people are buying the VG900 to use for still photography, that’s just insane!
They don’t even need to build a set of full frame E mount lenses, just make an SLT camera with a removable full frame version of the LA-EA2 built in, make it match in with the body so you can’t even tell it’s removable. Then people have a full frame Alpha DSLR and a full frame NEX to adapter any lens they want to without there being pressure to create a fleet of full frame NEX lenses.
People seem to want a full frame sensor that they can put all different kinds of legacy glass in front of, that’s what people are doing with the VG900.
Except unless the attached LA-EA2/3/4 adapter had built in stabilization A-mount users would lose I.B.I.S for all their A-mount lenses.
Honestly, I tried to switch to Nikon right now from my Sony, I have a Sony A55 and A850, I was alright with it up until the D800/600 and the 5dmiii and the 6d came out. So right now I was aiming to either upgrade to the A99 or switch entirely to Nikon. I chose to stay with Sony, because I believe in their future. However, the one thing that makes me want to change to Nikon (sorry canon the user interface is weird to me) is the low level noise control. It is superb in comparison to all other cameras, not only that but the metering system, and dynamic range on the camera, is nothing less then obvious. If Sony wants to stay in the running between these cameras, we have to focus on three things which personally, I see people looking at the most:
Noise Performance – Clean ISO 3200 is so 5DMark II and 700D
Dynamic Range – D-Range optimizer works nice… at 100 ISO; raise the noise sensitivity and adjust the dynamic range however you like.
FPS and Buffer speed Which I think go hand in hand(10 FPS does nothing for you if you can only take 15 pics and the buffer is full)
Do what I did: Borrow Nikon for a shooting event (eg. wedding) and try to use both: Nikon and your camera. You’ll cure instantly from wanting to go Nikon.
(for me the Quick shift bounce is a killer feature – no matter how good high ISOs Nikon has – it’s crap without flash supporting QSB. Same with autofocus in live view mode. Nikon: 95% out of focus shots, Sony: below 5%).
The 36 megapixel’s ship has sailed. It’s now old news – and why the heck would anyone expect a Nikon customer to switch when they can get a camera right now! No no no. Sony has to come to the table with something REALLY compelling, new, and cutting edge – not just a rehash of year-old tech.
Excellently put Adam. I am in the same boat. I would add that if mechanical noise can be reduced even further – the A77 purrs compared to the Canikon competitors – I would be tempted to stay. I know it has been a tough time for Sony with the financial problems and the tsunami, but I have been anxious about future products for a few years now. Visiting the Landscape Photographer of the Year and the Wildlife Photographer of the Year exhibitions, I would say that 95%+ were Canikon, a sprinkling of Pentax and one possibly two Sony entries.
I quite like being different from the crowd, but worry when I feel almost alone..
Just because there is one comment saying that they would sell all their Nikon stuff doesn’t mean that everybody else would.
Many of the people voting “yes” wouldn’t actually buy it in reality. It’s easy to click “yes”, not so easy to actually spend hard cash and yes I know there are always going to be the odd exceptions, but that isn’t the majority.
CaNikon full frame users jumping ship to a Sony, with one lens available and Sony’s history of not churning out lenses. Come on, don’t be daft!
I believe 295 people that voted Yes above actually shoots Sony already but want to make it look like Canon/Nikon shooter will change to Sony if that dream camera comes true. The truth is, Sony people want that camera, Canon/Nikon shooters like Canon or Nikon for being mature SLR systems.
I don’t want the 36 MP sensor. Too much senseless resolution without lenses to support it. 24 MP is more than enough for all the current lenses.
With 36 MP you will only get large files, that are unsharp and slow to process!
And don’t forget ! ! ! IBIS ! ! ! for that dream machine.
I have lenses that will easily support 36 Megapixels on Full Frame. Remember if you simply keep the pixels the same size as in a 5N, and double the area, that is 32 Mpx. So 36 is a marginal increase in definition.
I am certain that the 5N is not recording the full definition from my better lenses.
Cameras with FF sensor and exchangeable lenses are called DSLRs. If you want smaller cameras, go for smaller cameras, but smaller cameras with FF will always be and have trade-offs. Why should someone with Nikon FF gear, hundreds of Nikon lenses etc. switch to Sony for a FF camera whose main difference would probably be its size? (FF sensors are both from Sony) Is size that important for Pros? I thought main point is ergonomics, handling etc. and for this you need size.
So frankly, I do not get this entire discussion. Many of You want a FF camera with exchangeable lenses that is small, not a DSLR, but its IQ equal to a DSLR? So you want a small DSLR without mirror? Mirror bothers you? Size bothers you? Is that the idea? I don t get it.
I imagine someone from the early 20th century saying “cameras with full frame sensors are called plate cameras”…
Anyhoo. I’m a canon user about to jump to nikon – because I want full frame and I’ll have to ditch all my crop lenses anyway – I may as well buy into a system with better dynamic range.
So for me if sony can do FF with 14stops dynamic range, with 11 or 12 in video (I wish) at 60fps I would be all over it at 16MP-24MP. If you must do 36MP, give us bloody sRAW, thanks. 🙂 The problem with jumping to sony is the – shall we say – “confident pricing” of its best glass.
Let me tell you this out of experience: drop the crap with 11 or 12 stops and dynamic range buzz and DXO and learn photography. What you have is more than you can handle already. A new kit won’t help you take better pictures.
Yep, spot on, someone finally called it the way it really is. DXO rankings are utterly flawed on several fronts. Also, most photographers crank up the contrast so much in post that the dynamic range is a mute point. 100% dynamic range gets you closer to HDR, which I personally think looks like sh/t.
Dear friend,
Pros care about image quality and camera handling.
The DSLR is dying because it can not deliver the speed and focus accuracy required today. An EVF gives you a preview of focus, focus highlight, depth of focus, exposure and more which on OVF can not deliver.
The DSLR is simply not a viable solution any more.
What planet did you come from, you alien-troll. You’re clueless. DSLR’s focus faster and more accurately in lower light than everything else (dedicated phase detect). That’s why pros, wedding togs, journalists, sports shooters, etc. eat them up like gummi bears.
Get a clue.
PDAF through the mirror is fast but not as accurate as image sensor CDAF. That’s why reporters use DSLRs, because they need speed and settle for second best in resolution and focusing accuracy, while studio photographers don’t need the speed but demand the best in resolution and focusing accuracy.
Studio photographers will use a medium format camera if they can afford it, and manual focus anyway. Current EVFs are not good enough yet.
Contrast detection can be more accurate than phase. Phase detection is faster because of extra information about which direction focus needs to be moved is available. The most modern systems combine the advantages of each, relying on contrast for subtle adjustment.
It has to have I.B.I.S. so no thanks.
Man, this is getting sad… does anyone shooting Sony have a clue about photography?
In Body Image Stabilization is slower, less accurate, generates more heat and consumes more power than lens based stabilization.
It’s cheaper in the body and works for non-stabilized lenses, but that’s about it.
Go update your lenses and quit shooting grandpa’s crappy hand-me-downs.
36MP why are so many people hung up on more? The 36MP Sony sensor is trash at high ISO. Everyone has figured out that DxOmark tests are cheated by high MP by now right? Too many people complaining about the built in EVF which will drive the cost up and make it bigger. OLED EVF only if they can make it fit without adding to the size significantly like the NEX 6 seems to do. FF but drop the 24 MP. Give me 16 MP FF and we could stop worrying about noise from ISO 1600 to 6400 so much. But wait, that would cut into a certain dSLR maker’s D4 not to mention other Sony cameras. No more pixels, I want a better sensor. Fuji’s X100 (Sony sensor yes?) is 12 and it’s fantastic.
I second that, steady shot is needed. Without it, it negates the sensor performance somewhat. Using the A99 you could realistically shoot 1-2 stops lower ISO to get the same shot in certain cases.
I agree – 24 megapixels would be plenty. Maybe something about the size of a Leica M.
its also depends on the codec in camera for video. definitely no for AVCHD 24mbps. we need more than 100mbps bit rate. its 2013 sony.
no for AVCHD 24mbps. we need Higher bit rate video like 100mbps.
higher bit rate in video pls.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO for AVCHD 24MPS. WE NEED HIGHER BIT RATES LIKE 100.
if more than 100mbps in video.
IBIS is comparable to high iso performance. keeping shutter speeds fast win you those extra stops as well. I prefer shutter speed (better iso performance) if I have to choose one, shutter speed is better for sharpness than ibis. applies to most situations, if not all. but someone else will have to do the math: how much better iso performance do you need to make up for the loss of IBIS?
Think of stabilization in terms of stops (for static subjects). Dependent upon your needs, 1 stop of stabilization gives you 1 lower aperture stop – or 1 speed stop – or 1 iso stop – or a combination of 1/3 or 1/2 stops.
Claims of 4 f stops worth of stabilization are rarely better than 2 really.
just give it a mic-in please 🙂
How about going the Pana GH3 way?
Take a medium sized DSLR body, like A77. Put the 36MP sensor with the E-Mount inside.
Now you can adapt all your Nikkors and Canon EFs. You can even get AF support via third party adapters. AND you can’t complain about the handling.
No.
It was a description of long speculated FF NEX.
It’s not a replacement for a serious DSLR. Hardly somebody would actually sell his N/C DSLR for this.
Adn there is no point to put 36 MP there. It already just a few primes which can really resolve 36MP of Nikon D800. Look at new Zeiss 55mm prototype, you need a “big” lens to benefit from this resolution.
Overall, it’s finally clear what was expected. Despite all Sony’s promises for professional market, Sony silently abandon it for niche products. Alpha FF is about dead. Who would invest it now?
Well, may be it’s not good or bad. Just business.
Sony will do sensors for Nikon, NEX lines, RX lines(How about RX-10 with APS-C and Zeiss zoom lens?).
I’ve got a bunch of small light leica and zeiss primes that are pretty serious. They can easily resolve at 36Mp although I would be quite happy with 24mp also. DSLR users are blessed by having many options 5d,6d,d800,d600,a99 etc. But there is no modern-design fullframe camera that can mount these lenses available.
do not go crazy with Megapixels. stay with 24MP or lower and i will love it.
A FF with only 24 Mpix will have lower resolution than any current NEX over the APS-C area.
And I’m sure many people would want to use their existing NEX lenses in cropped mode. You think they want a step down in image quality?
oh brother… (shaking head)… Please stop posting misinformation.
HELL YES! Would be absolutely perfect for me. Well, as long as it has global shutter that is. If I cannot have a absolutely silent camera, then its not for me.
Sounds good – except for the part about the 36mp sensor (need the better low light performance of the 24mp).
Fast on-sensor PDAF in hybrid system with CDAF is the key. The big 2 do not yet have a solution for focus accuracy (with 36mp, focus accuracy is critical) – this is an area where Sony is taking outright leadership, but has lots of room to improve.
Noone has a solution for that*. Perhaps in a year or two or more we’ll see something that matches performance of cheapest APS-C DSLRs, but so far? Some Point&Shoot cameras got better AF.
* – yes, noone. Nikon 1 doesn’t count cause it has so huge depth of field that most of the people wouldn’t know if it’d have lens set to hyperfocal distance with no AF what so ever.
I just want to take pictures
can I just get a simple full frame that has wonderful IQ with 36mp or higher that uses my Sony/Swiss lenses?
Since my Nex, I haven’t touched my A-300 SLR. I’ve got the lea-2 and the EVF. I love the modular concept: if it’s necessary to keep the setup simple and small, I mount my Minox lens, otherwise I take along my dear Minolta lenses and the antique Zeiss and Schneider stuff from the fifties. A FF-Nex would be wonderful. IBIS would be OK, but I don’t really need it; the high Iso performance of my Nex 5N compensates enough.
I recommend a850. It’s still a great camera.
I will buy one in a shot but it will replace my Nex-7, it will not replace my Nikon D3. No substitute for an optical viewfinder and a full size body for events.
cannot agree more!
+1
But this is just a mini-A99!
If Sony really wants to compete with Nikon/Canon and take theirs users, they have to do better, push harder innovations. A99 was supposed to be the true FF hybrid but although it has plenty of accessories the video is still not there in quality.
You need to combine some feats that neither Nikon or Canon has in a single body, you have to come up with something unique. And I don’t know about the e-mount, Sony seems to have some problem to develop lens for the e-mount, I don’t know how much it’sworth to be able to adapt everything if it nmakes it that hard to come up with good lenses of your own.
Oh wouldn’t it be cool of Sony dropped the a-mount and my 13 lenses would be… Worthless and working only on discontinued bodies.
You’re joking right?! As if I would say thank you Sony and buy more Sony e-mount cameras out of gratefulness.
I’am a huge proponent of small e-mount fullframe. But SONY aren’t going to drop A-mount or its users. SONY need customers invested in their system to compete with Canikon, innovation is only part of it. Makers jealously guard their mounts,
What about investing in usability? Nexes are toys, give us proper dials and a simple menu instead of pseudo-tech numbers that mean nothing. Proper ergonomics in a camera are underrated in nerd forums such as this.
I have really tried to like Sony cameras but only the A900 sort of came my way, and I cannot buy it coz I have a different system already, which comes my way even better.
i dont care what mount. Features looking for:- 1) compact full frame mirrorless with size like X-e1 2)swivel screen like canon’s 3) focus fast like omd em5 4) touch screen to pinpoint focus area 5)hybrid viewfinder like xpro1. cos normally evf limited battery life. with optical, the battery last longer and can take more pics.
You had me at EVF 😉
Why CyberShot as a base concept? Sounds like a bad smoke.
Sony should make an universal modular camera with new mount (shorter focal plane) for every type of lenses via specific adapters. The camera should be sold with A-mount adapter to have backward compatibility with all minolta/sony gear. The camera should looks similar to Hasselblad cameras. Digital backs, grips, viewfinders should be available as additional accessories. The sensors should integrate global shutter and AF in main sensor. Digital backs could be divided for any size: APSC, FF, 36×36 (for new mount common with Hasselblad) or even bigger. At the end customer will choose which one preferred.
Canon user here. When I wanted to add a mirrorless camera to my arsenal, Sony never crossed my mind. Reason: lack of lenses like the m43 group.
Now, we are talking about mirrorless FF camera. It’s highly desirable for me. Actually, VERY high on my priority list. Again, if there is no decent lens offerings (f/4 zooms like 16-35 f/4 VR, 24-120 f/4 VR, 70-200 f/4 VR, bunch of affordable fast primes like 28 f/1.8, 50 f/1.4 and 85 f/1.8), I have no interest.
My message to Sony is this: please get your lens roadmap straightened out. The whole purpose of having interchangeable lens cameras is to be able to switch lenses according to one’s needs.
Sony should consider to implement a new FF mirrorless mount together with Olympus and Panasonic. They bought into Olympus recently and could gain from their lens experience. Those three cover 99,99% or more 🙂 of the current mirrorless market together they could really kick Canikon’s @ass in the FF market! The future is mirrorless anyway.
If you took the box a Canon or Nikon camera comes in, and changed the specifications to those of a comparably priced Sony, that model would sell out overnight and there would be miles-long waiting lists the next day.
I would buy it if:
1. It has an E mount
2. Built in EVF and separate hotshoe, separate mic and other ports (all accessible at the same time).
3. Decent shutter.
4. Built in EVF.
5. All apps built in like Nikon and others do.
6. Immediate and regular FW upgrades for any mishapes.
7. Sell it with a body cap at no extra cost!
None of it is going to happen any time soon. 🙁
Guys, let’s stop dreaming too much and be realistic.
Here’s how i view what should happen:
1) FF NEX – frankly there is like only 25% chance Sony would do this.
If they really did this, and in order to keep it small and light enough.
It will not have flash, viewfinder, etc like the RX1.
Worst of all it would cost an arm and a leg with maybe just 1 FF Lens to go with it.
2) FF Alpha – 90% chance Sony would use this.
They will not/cannot dump all their current range of alpha lens, its a straight road to hell.
NOTE TO ALL e mount are all for crop not for full frame.
Unless they create an adapter for e system to use on a system, which should be a lot easier than the reverse.
Have to stop dreaming and kept pulling down everything into NEX, its meant to be a lower end system.
3) Modular FF System – 65% chance Sony would do this.
With the RX1 as the test platform and letting consumer do what they like to their camera seems to be the way to go.
Look at what Pentax did to their rainbow dslr….. and how many people in japan actually bought that?
This would also let people have better upgrading paths, and should be the right way ahead i believe.
4) Mirrorless FF – 50% chance Sony would do this.
I too wished Sony would do this in fact, but throwing away slt technology in a space of 2 years seems too fast for comfort.
Its not that I’m against change, but from a business/consumer aspect.
5) 36MP FF – 90% chance Sony would use this.
Hey, they have it and Nikon used it, so why not?
To me its over kill, 24MP is more than enough for me.
Hell even the 20MP 6D is enough.
Please learn something from this, IQ > MP.
End of it all, I would rather Sony fix the following BASIC stuff:
1. Better Noise Performance 50-6400 ISO (comparable to 5d3)
2. Better Low Light Performance (comparable to 6d)
3. Customized Bracketing
4. More FPS and buffer
5. AA filter, etc etc… nuff said.
Not to put a damper on things, but full frame, at best case, is probably a market of about just over 1 million total units right now, out of interchangeable lens camera market approaching 20 million units. Getting APS right is way more critical to Sony’s camera future than full frame. The internal discussions at Sony that led to the cancellation of the A900 et.al. revolved around that very topic.
Full frame is a bit of an ego chase, IMHO. Moreover, it’s a backwards-looking ego chase. Jump 10 years into the future and see if building huge semiconductors that are costly really is at the center of imaging any more. Almost certainly not.
The proposed Sony camera here seems like a grab bag of things that got an overabundance of press attention relative to actual sales dynamics: RX-1, 36mp, 60p, Zeiss, no AA filter, etc. The RX-1 won’t outsell any other full frame camera in its price range. The 24mp D600 outsells the 36mp D800. The non-Zeiss lenses outsell the Zeiss lenses. The AA D800 outsells the non-AA D800E. Like I said, ego chase, not a realistic strategy to try to unseat the Canikon full frame lead.
To disrupt a market leader you have to do something they can’t or won’t do. Many years ago I proposed that to be CPM: communicating, programmable, modular. All three of those things are forward looking, not backward facing. Sony has the elements in place to do two of those things, though they’ve done them sub-optimally. If they want to disrupt Canikon, they need to put more emphasis on getting those disruptive things right.
If anything is “backwards-looking” it’s your approach to the topic. Cause what everyone see around but you is the fact that Sony wants to extend the size of Full Frame market instead of stealing it from Canon or Nikon. If Sony would care about it – they wouldn’t make any changes but rather release A909 or A99XL.
“The 24mp D600 outsells the 36mp D800.” – cheaper outsells more expensive? Oh man… what a surprise!
“Many years ago I proposed that to be CPM:” – yea, yea, so you proposed Sony to quit Full Frame completely. Keep on “proposing”. Everyone pay attention.
Even though a FF camera is for some financially attainable at at $3,000 price plus lenses and some extra gadgets, I agree that the market moves a lot faster on the APS-C’s.
Will I like to have a FF? Yes, but it needs to be affordable like Nikon and Canon are now doing. IMHO, Sony needs to build a base (technology wise) APS-C system that can also be scaled up to FF with as many specs as many of you here request.
NEX or SLT is just a preference to whoever like it the most. Just my 2 cents.
> Cause what everyone see around but you is the fact that Sony wants to extend the size of Full Frame market instead of stealing it from Canon or Nikon.
Sorry, but I’m not the only one that sees reality. Reality for DSLRs is the same as it was for film SLRs: at a certain household penetration, you can’t grow the market, you are mostly selling replacements. One of the data points I look at is the forecasts by the camera industry itself, which shows that they believe that the interchangeable lens market does not have much growth left in it.
To date, there’s been no evidence that Sony has stolen ANY market share from Canikon in DSLRs (APS or full frame). Nor is there any evidence that Sony’s presence has grown the market for DSLRs. This is exactly what’s being debated internally at Sony in the executive ranks: NEX did make such changes, Alpha did not.
The real question for Sony is whether there are enough Alpha mount full framers out there (both existing and future) to justify the R&D and marketing/sales costs. But note that the proposal here, and one of the proposals floating around within Sony Imaging is not for an Alpha full frame camera, but for a NEX full frame camera. The assumption is that since NEX did increase Sony’s market share where Alpha didn’t, maybe that would be true of other sensor sizes, too. The problem with full frame, though, is price. An E-mount full frame camera from Sony would be the highest priced mirrorless camera except for a Leica.
> If Sony would care about it – they wouldn’t make any changes but rather release A909 or A99XL.
The fact that they allowed the full frame cameras to go off market, and thus lose continuity, should tell you something. On again, off again, on again product lines generally don’t succeed.
> “The 24mp D600 outsells the 36mp D800.” – cheaper outsells more expensive? Oh man… what a surprise!
True, not a surprise, but you’re the one talking about extending the full frame market size. Trouble is, it’s being extended at the low end. A high end Sony NEX-based FF camera has to compete with lower priced alternatives, and that just makes it even more difficult to grow the market.
> “Many years ago I proposed that to be CPM:” – yea, yea, so you proposed Sony to quit Full Frame completely. Keep on “proposing”. Everyone pay attention.
Actually, maybe you should pay attention. The recent Sony models actually are CP (but not M) cameras: they communicate via WiFi, they are programmable (but only by Sony ;~(.
As for me proposing that Sony “quit Full Frame completely”, please show me where I wrote those words. I did not assert that they should do that anywhere in what I wrote. I simply pointed out that I doubt that it would be a successful tactic to build a high-end RX1-based NEX-type camera.
@Sky_walker
Give Thom some well deserved respect, as he is an important and vauled voice in the photography, and has been for decades!!!
I know you like to be the center of attention here, and post 1000 times a day as the “know it all of life and photography”, but you’re so arrogant it’s hard to swallow your crap. When you post 1000 times a day in these forums your opinion looses value and credibility.
Thom writes well composed articles, manuals, books, etc, that are in-depth and well informed. When he speaks, he has thought or lived his words, he is not merly posting for the sake of posting.
I like and own the NEX6, and would consider an RX (whatever) if the price was right, and there was a decent lens line up, and oh yeah, Sony showed more support for the people who invest into their system.
PS. I come this forum to read about Sony, but all I ever read is people bashing Nikon, Canon, etc, or complaining they need to use good photographic technique to get the most out of their photos (Nikon D800) which makes me wonder,…are these posters cry babies or photographers??
Most of the time i open this site, this guy with a juvenile name is there. ‘Defending’ on the threads against Sony, without any credible track record and references to back his assertions. Its just equipment man, comments and ideas that can make the manufacturer better in churning out its next products is appreciated by some owners like me.
Thom!!!
Great summary! Cannot agree more with you. Building modular system that can be fitted to various needs like video rigs could be the game changer. NEX is heading this way.
I think sony need to look at 2 more places though:
1. “sexy” factor – Fuji got this in X series. They are worse cameras than any NEX yet they are super cool. This is something Sony should look at. NEX-7 goes there for techno geeks like myself but puts off a chunky group of people.
2. Segmenting products – Sony faults here very often – 28MBps video on A99, no focus adjustment on A57, periodic crippling of bracketing and other essentials – …we all get it that Sony has to sell higher end products. There are better ways to segment these 4k vs. HD video is quite obvious. I also like the Nikon approach with D600 – they riddled D600 with annoying problems, still spec wise and in reviews it is on par or beats D800 on most accounts. Still there are plenty of reasons to pick D800 if you shoot professionally – fast 100% magnification, more solid build, easier finger friendly ergonomics. Nikon keep the core thing on D600 – Image Quality (bar the dust&oil spots).
Thom-thom has it right. Finally, someone on SAR who knows more than me.
+1
This sounds a lot like a FF NEX, which is what a lot of people are hoping for. To me, this makes a lot of sense as a camera and as a marketing move.
It makes a clear distinction between DSLR and mirrorless and gives Sony an opening into those areas where mirrorless has an advantage.
It opens the way for a modular system (somewhat like the old film medium format systems) as well as a fully-coordinated line of APS and FF cameras.
Adapters make it easy for Canon and Nikon system owners to switch. They can sample with a body, adapter and maybe one or two lenses, then make a transition. No need to dump their whole system at once, and very little need to maintain duplicate equipment as they make the transition.
Works for me. Not sure I would pay the money, but sure do like the idea.
… yes yes yes yes yes yes !!!!!!
Yeh, yeh, same story again: FF NEX like Flying Dutchman “that can never make port, doomed to sail the oceans forever”.
I have D800 and I have NEX-7.
When I take D800 out I know it just works.
I’m sure about the battery life, I’m sure it doesn’t heat during video, I’m sure which item to find where in the menu.
It’s fast, and excellent.
I love NEX-7, but you better don’t have to look for something in the menu. You’ll get lost.
Then you start shooting video – and the overheat warning icon starts to flash in 2-3 minutes and then it just shuts down.
I talked with Sony – according to them if it lasts 7-8 minutes this means it works properly… Seriously, SONY????
Then even as much as I love customizable buttons, all those unnamed buttons can be quite confusing at some point.
It’s just a little bit harder to operate and trust this camera.
I love Sony technology and how they challenge the rest with new stuff, but they need to be more consistent too. At least if they want the pro’s to switch to Sony.
and can shot 0,0001 frame per hour! nah sorry, the definitive camera is 1dx go with canon and leave the dreamy/foolish sony to playstation kids
Yes, Sony should build a NEX X:
FF, 36 MP, AA-free, EVF and a U-mount.
A U-mount is a universal mount that accepts fully automatic adapters for lenses from ALL lens manufacturers including Canon, Nikon, Leica, Olympus, Sony, Zeiss, and others.
I don’t understand what Sony is waiting for.
JUST DO IT SONY, before I buy a D800E, rip out the mirror, the PDAF, the pentaprism and the OVF and install an RX1 EVF.
Why use the E mount?. Like I keep saying the lenses are too big to compensate
For the distance between the sensor. Just make the lens mount a little bigger
And use the fucking A mount. Useless fucking around!.
If its E-mount and waiting on lenses ( Sony is bad about producing Lenses ) NO WAY ! I think it is totally disrespectful and plain robbery if the do away with the A-mount for E-mount. Especially since they don’t have any full-frame E-Mount Lenses! Forget all of this adapter and using other brand’s of lenses crap… I thought you were trying to take the top spot? How can you do that with everyone using lenses that are not SONY !
Why would a Nikon user switch when they already have that sensor ??? Duh’
Plus can you imagine the price point considering how expensive the Rx-1 and A99’s were??? Get real, No way… Sony already had the chance to make what would have put them on top… A99 with the 36MP sensor they produced for nikon, With better AF Layout, And OVF and EVF CHOICE, Like they did the a580 / a55.
I can’t switch from Nikon or Canon because Im a Sony user but if they do away with the Alpha mount on their full-frame Bodies, I will switch to Nikon.
Where’s my comment I just posted?
Andrea, why don’t you try to ask how many of us will leave Sony the day it dismisses A-mount? Do you think we’re willing to use our lens collection via a silly adapter? I understand newcomers who started with NEX may see it differently.
why does it have to be a silly adapter. why not a very very serious adapter like an interchangeable mount (e and a are probable, f and eos would be doable even with af (red has it too) leica m would be nice too). that is what I want. high precision adapters/mounts, they won’t be cheap (but then you have the ability to use the best lenses of every system)
lets say the camera comes with the d800 sensor, is weather sealed, high build quality and costs $3500 with the mount of your choice (extra mounts $1000, I think because of the required precision they can’t be cheaper). that would be perfect.
I have read the comments and from what I can see is that most of the people who have voted or made a majority of the comments must be SONY NEX users. I have the NEX 7 and I love this camera, but in my work I am using the Nikon D800. If I was to change to SONY, it would be for a camera similar to the SONY a99 and SONY Zeiss Lenses. I will not go to a converted NEX even if they have the lenses.
I am a News Paper Photographer and I need a camera that stand the abuse. When I seen the Alpha 99, this camera was close, but if Sony took this camera to the next level in construction, I would be dumping Nikon for it.
Use me, I am future F mount… The new Full Frame mount on the new compact body. Don’t waste time on your existing mount since no lenses is produce yet… : )
The problem is that FF e-mount lenses will be relatively huge. Even the aps-c e-mount lenses are commonly criticized for their size. Due to the relatively small mount size that has such a short registration distance, there is enough mechanical interference to force FF e-mount lenses to be pretty long.
Then the camera will be worth $4000+…… I will not go for it…
If the camera is a DSLT , I will still considerate it….. Actually I think about Mirrorless before , but after using some mirrorless in my actual lifetime , I think a prosumer is much more fulfill my requirement….so I will not consider mirrorless anymore even in FF.BTW….the FF mirrorless’s size will not fulfill my requirement….even the RX-1
A professtional grade of camera , which is easy customizable to fit different photog’s requirement will be more please in my view….
Making it Modular is the way to go. Have the back of the 36 or 24MP FF. Attach the EVF (using one of two Multi-interface Hotshoe), a larger grip, if you want, a vertical grip, add A-mount adapter and there you go. A weather sealed, big A-mount camera with the things you want in, the things you don’t want off. Now, you want it smaller? Remove everything, leave only the back and change the larger grip with a smaller grip and if you want, the EVF. Done done. You have a small E-mount camera. If you want it for films, remove the grip, attach some sort of extra cooling unit on the back with bigger battery bay, remove the small EVF and attach a bigger screen (via-MultiInterface Hotshoe, so no cable needed) and use the other hotshoe for the XLR audio unit. Done done.
Now make it beautiful LOL.
+1
-1. Sounds like a monstrosity that Sony just will not go for. Too many pieces and parts. Simplify it down some, otherwise Thom Hogan will never buy it. I can see the Steve Huff video of this nightmare right now… a 3 hour long video of his girly hands camera-bating every little nook and cranny.
The specs proposed are the same ones I proposed yesterday. I don’t think Sony has the balls to do it. For some reason, they want to succeed with competing in a shrinking market they have zero chance in. For many people, the D800 is nearly perfect as far as dslr goes. Nikon only needs to improve a few things like video, frame rate, 1 to 1 magnification, etc. Against such a great camera and others like the D4 and 1DX, how does Sony believe they can come out with something so unbelievably better that people would switch to Sony for dslr needs? Lenses. all the Zeiss premiums are only available for canikon not Alpha. Canikon also have some amazing lenses like the 14-24/2.8 that cannot be touched. Why is Sony trying to compete in this market?
They really need to ditch the alpha line and focus on Nex. Canikon are close to completion in dslr. No one will switch from them to a Sony dslt or any other mfgr. Leica quit. Olympus all but quit. Sony needs to quit and focus their resources on Nex and future thinking cameras. The 10 owners of alpha will cry, but it will only improve Sony’s bottom line. They’re wasting too much resources on this oddball dslr wannabe that can’t even use any of Zeiss’ premium lenses.
I want to add something. I never understood why anyone chose Alpha slt other than the fact they used to own Minolta. Most professionals chose the system based on their needs, regardless of brands. The Alpha system is so incomplete, how does it appeal to any needs that canikon doesn’t? Quite frankly, I think the only reason anyone chooses Alpha is because they’re a brand fanboy and not being objective about their needs. If I want Zeiss lenses, I’d definitely would chose canikon. Alpha has maybe 5-6 oddball Zeiss? Every premium Zeiss, including the new designs are ONLY available to Canikon. Zeiss is not a reason to go Alpha. Maybe, it’s IBIS. I can’t figure it.
+1, exactly my thoughts
It is ironic that the real Zeiss lenses like the distagons and macro-planners are being used on Canikon and can’t be used on the A99. Meanwhile, NEX is actually better in this respect and ZM’s like the biogons and planars work well on the NEX 5n/r/6.
better video quality with higher bit rate.
The problem with Sony NEX cameras is that the sensors are great but the controls/menus are disfunctional and the lenses are bad. Putting a full frame sensor behind a NEX e-mount is only going to make the e-mount lenses look even worse than they already do. Sony needs to design a new mount for mirrorless full frame that will allow their lenses to maximize image quality.
Nex is their big hit and have problems and not enough resources devoted to fixing the problems. Alpha is a zero hit that Sony is spending too much resources on. We all know what must be done.
I don’t need this magic camera to switch…I just did.
I’m selling all of my Canon gear to use an a99, NEX-7 and NEX-5 exclusively for all my photo and video work. Only manual adapted lenses. It’s easy to pick these cameras apart for what they don’t have…I’m focusing on what they do have and what they can do to support my art. Lenses are great but so far I only miss my EF 135 f/2 but have plenty of manual focus lenses which are very similar right now.
I think Sony is ahead of the curve for the cameras I want right now. I predict great things in the next couple of generations of Alpha and NEX cameras and I’m prepared to eat the cost of a brand switch to be on board when that happens.
That said, any full frame NEX camera, regardless of if it’s the 24MP or the 36MP sensor, is coming home with me the second it’s available.
Dave! Don’t do it. I’ve been back and forth with pretty much every camera brand over the years. It happens. However, keep the Canon DSLR stuff. Expand with the NEX stuff. You’ll thank me soon.
Thanks but it’s too late. This wasn’t a decision which was taken lightly. I’ve been coming to this since the 5D MKIII came out…about the same time I bought my NEX-7. I have considered all options including staying with Canon. I would go all NEX but even if the technology were ready perceptions aren’t.
I can’t take headshots in the corporate world with anything less than a ‘big black camera’ and expect to be hired again. If street photography paid my bills, I’d just by an RX1 and be done with it…but it’s not that simple in my world unfortunately.
Regardless of brand, cameras come and go like the tide…that’s the way of things now. It’s not like the old days (though I still use my RB67…that thing will never die).
Thank you DaveT
But my problem with the current NEX is that I can’t hold it in a shot with my 85/f1.4 attached for hours at a time because its to small in my hands to control.
I don’t use “auto” and working the dials is hard for me to do.
This is where personal preference and style make a huge difference. I can shoot a NEX-7 with a chunky 180mm f/2.8 Ai-S ED all day no big deal. If I’m working a festival and have to walk around for 10 hours, the reduced bulk and weight in the body is very very welcome. I’ll be doing some this summer and may only carry NEX cameras in some situations.
I’ve been loving the 5R too…yes it doesn’t fit in the hand as well as the 7 but it has other advantages to make up for the ergonomics. For example today I’m testing extended time lapse shooting which is only possible thanks to the cameras ability to be powered by USB. Once the Play Memories time lapse app is released, it will be even better.
That could do it ….
….. modular concept like the RED …
….. now only in ORANGE ! 🙂
Just attach what you want and/or need.
P.S.: I just wonder why everyone here seems to go for mini-size cams only. Not many professionals here?
We don’t need modular cameras. Only the super high end can justify the cost and bulk. The trend for the future is smaller, lighter, portable cameras for both photo and video. Just look at all the DSLR film maker or black magic cinema cam. It leads to being able to take shots in places and conditions you can’t with a big rig. Why go for small? Try lugging a Hasselblad DMF and Nikon DSLR overseas for 4 months. These mirrorless can do 90% of what the big ones can do. They also gives the user the freedom to do things they couldn’t with the big cameras so in reality, they do 200% of what the big ones can do.
The best camera is the one you have with you. When I trudged by DMF and DSLR, I spent so much time thinking about my back that I didn’t even want to carry my aps-c DSLR with small 35/1.8 around and missed a lot of opportunities. My new setup is a D800E for landscape and special shots and will stay in the hotel till those shots are needed. The NEX comes with me everywhere. I’m even thinking of picking up a GoPro for shots where I wouldn’t even take the NEX. Seriously thinking about selling the big rig modular Hasselblad, even if the images are so, so sweet.
No, wouldn’t swop. Not until there’s at least 35mm, 50mm 100mm macro, 90tilt shift , 200 mm as good as canon’s. L versions But in the meantime I’ll scrape together the cash for the RX1 for that bokeh and sensor, and happily use it as the perfect complement to my soulless canon system., and a take everywhere camera.
EVF for RX1 is better than the one in A99 already.
I’d rather they build better focus points one the sensor and in body stabilization rather than going to FF. Sensor quality is improving fast enough that the APC sensors will be better than today’s FF sensors SOONER than anyone will come out with a new line of lenses.
So I think in body stabilization, fast focus, and improved sensors for NEX.
I wonder if it would be possible to make a compact alpha full frame that could accommodate existing lenses, but then design a line of compact alpha lenses to go with it, something like the Canon 40mm pancake? Seems that if you can design around a form factor of the NEX7 with sly adapter, but more aesthetically and ergonomically pleasing that might be the answer instead of a third mount type. Thoughts?
The alpha mount is designed with enough flange distance in mind to accommodate a mirror box. That negates compactness. If its a FF compact interchangeable Lens system, it’ll unlikely be Alpha mount. To make an Alpha mount camera with no mirror, just look at the Pentax and see how sales are doing. To do FF compact, Sony probably would need to abandon the idea of fast long focal length lenses and focus on wide to reasonably long lenses (100mm?) just like Leica. The majority of users would be ok with this. Those who need lenses for wildlife and sports can got to canikon or use an adapter.
No, because 36MP is overkill.
How about Sony going out of business and apple buys it, i wanna see APPLE DSL something! Or how about this, all shut the hell up and go out and take photos, i see people shooting with a $200 A100 or a D40 or a Rebel and they have stunning images, come on, the camera technology is so so so good that they can give much more beyond what you really need, its photographing, its all about light idiots. You camera porn addicted.
Just wanted to make sure you didn’t just want “guys'” opinion. 😐
HEY! What about the sequential hermaphrodites! Man.
Why would I switch? Thousands of dollars worth of glass and pro bodies that produce exactly what I need in my field of work. Are you going to jump ship at every turn when the opposition comes up with something better? Good luck with that. You need deep pockets.
Exactly, exactly.
I got myself a NEX-7 as well as a D800. One for travel, one for ‘important’ shots. Tomorrow I’m selling the NEX after months of schizophrenic love/hate moments. Quite simply, it’s not a mature product! There is ONE decent lens for it – you may guess – the Zeiss 24/1.8. ALL the rest are so bad you have to post process every single shot to get rid of CA and other distortion.
Metering is so/so, white balance is off quite often too. Pictures from SEL (except the Zeiss) lenses just look dull compared to the ones from the D800. I also don’t care about all those manual lenses you can add with adaptors. It’s the year 2012 – AF should be standard.
The menus are terrible and the interface logic makes no sense. Well, Nikon can get better in that department too… I lost count on how many accidental videos I took with the movie button placed right where everyone puts a thumb.
There is also barely anything Sony does to remedy faults. Their idea is to leave you with bugs until the next body comes out for you to buy.
Tomorrow I’ll pick up my Fuji E-X1. It has flaws, but Fuji are much better with software updates. Lenses and IQ are on a level Sony can only dream of.
The RX1 is tempting though. But then again, time will show how well they support this thing software wise. It would be disappointing to be stuck with bugs and UI annoyances after dropping almost 3k
Nope, there is no way I’m trading the rock solid reliability of the 5D3 paired with the EF 24-105 f/4 and 70-200 f/2.8. I have an A57 with A mount lenses and I think Sony has an advantage in the crop sensor market, but not in full frame.
E-mount does not have 24-70 /2.8 & 70-200 f/2.8 twins to take on the pros. Also, Canon has great 4-stop IS when it comes to telephoto range.
The E-mount lenses are either weak or overpriced IMO. NEX is nothing but a glorified P&S in it’s current state.
I would be interested in the next generation A77 model.
Wrong. I dumped $15,000 worth of Canon gear (including my EF 70-200 2.8 L IS) for the Sony 18-200 3.5-5.6 on a NEX 7. Couldn’t be happier with the NEX over my 2 5DmII’s. You haven’t a clue.
I guess I’m just a glorified pro shooting consumer crap.
Here’s a lesson champ… a lot of the pros are switching away from DSLR’s.
My lenses from Sony and Sigma are just as good as Canon’s at HALF the price.
why not using A-mount? it might add extra dimensions to the body but A-mount works better than E-mount when it comes to FF lenses, given there’re already heaps of FF lenses in A-mount’s arsenal
the sensor would have to be optimised like the one in leica m. e mount flange is difficult.
one way to do it is to make the lenses huge, but than whats the point?
I may be interested if they provied something like RX1 with a FF 36 MP and real A-Mount. Not interested in E-Mount. All my glass is A-Mount.
Put a real good solid “system” on the market and the rest will be history, not just another body concept changed every six months or less with crap slow glass and almost no glass choices. That is why many people doesn´t want to dump their good solid gear just like that.
That is an interesting proposition.
For those of us that are not heavily invested in glass for Canon/Nikon then the switch is possible.
Even with pro lenses from the big2 its actually not hard to unload. Now switching back to the big2 coming from any other brand. It then becomes difficult to do that. Not that it’s really that relevant in this case.
The best option would be to be able to turn the AA-filter on and off. Because if it’s going to be shooting video not having the AA-Filter is going to have tons of moiré. The body design will likely be such that when the A-mount adapter is mounted the camera looks like a DSLR/T And without the Adapter the camera looks like a mirrorless with a nice big grip.
Maybe even adapters that will allow full control of non-sony mount lenses. But because it’ll be software and hardware driven it would be limited to this particular camera model and future models that are built for the same purpose.
This could be the push to make Sony a digital camera back that can use any lens. The reverse of the film days. Use any lens you want on our bodies and sensors. What kind of competition in the marketplace would that create if a camera comes out from anyone doesn’t have to be Sony, though because Sony is producing sensors that other camera companies are using then it’s a logical transition to create a real game changer.
The other brands would obviously be licensing some piece of software code that allows the lenses to communicate properly. Now the other guys will have to adapt and produce better and better sensors and efficient algorithms to produce the cleanest and sharpest images possible and introduce their own character to their images.
It might sound crazy yes. But maybe crazy is just what the Dr. ordered to turn the camera world on its head and kick start some major innovation into the marketplace.
SONY just make an multi adapter lens for the nex so it can use all the lens of canon and nikon just like la-ea (1 and 2)
but mostly it’s not about the camera, todays camera can do anything it’s about the people WHO use the camera is the problem …^^
funny..I was having a conversation with my brother the other day about apple’s future computer products (because he’s a very knowledgable computer guy). The debate was about Apple’s Mac Pro tower. The design of it hasn’t changed in years and some people have speculated that the tower will be killed off because the laptops and iMacs are so much more capable these days, and the ‘gap’ between products is so much smaller. But with all that said, Tim Cook has hinted that they will be coming out with something to replace the tower for that consumer. So we’ll see what they have in store for us.
I bring up that conversation, because it does remind me of the current debate I see on these posts. Nex vs. SLT, E-mount vs A-mount, or APS-C vs FF. I struggle with this myself because I’m a fan of both. I actually really do like the heft and weight of my A99 (which i just added the v-grid to) and my CZ24-70. It’s a heavy rig but I’m a big guy and I have big hands so it just feels right, and it feels quality to me. I like that because of it’s weight I can ‘lock’ into position and really balance well. the weight almost acts as a stabilizer for me. Now having said all that, I think I would love to shoot the RX1 if ever given the chance because of its ‘primal’ feel..small…fixed lens…nimble. So I do want both, just like i want my iPhone, iPad, and Macbook Pro…and truthfully with all the processing i find myself doing these days with video and photos, I would consider a tower if it had the right specs to it.
Aside from the switch debate for current canon and Nikon users, I think Sony could benefit from looking at Apple and how Apple has created a total ‘lifestyle’. Just think of how well apple products ‘talk’ to each other. I can seamlessly flow between my devices and it still maintains all my information and media. Of course each one has it’s specialty but I think overall Apple is trying to get you into their ‘world’. Sometimes I feel like Sony is fighting itself the way people on these posts are fighting each other. Their products don’t seem to have the continuity across all lines.
So while everyone here can hack out the specs much better than I can, I would propose a more human interaction aspect to photography. What if your Sony devices (NEX,Alpha,Video Cams) could all communicate with each other – think of NFC (near field communications). What if you could create a photogs/videographers personal ‘cloud’. Imagine if while you’re shooting you could wirelessly uplink your photos to your account as a backup or just as a way to be processing these images so that when you’re ready to do your post work, it’s already there waiting for you to work. It would negate the timely syncing it can take when offloading a days work. Now I know RAW files are large but the technology with LTE and such is catching up and many times there’s wifi available at the location you’re in. Imagine if I could rate the photos on my NEX and Alpha etc, and view them on my iPhone like a ‘Lightbox’ without having to connect any of them together. What if if there was an opportunity for in camera editing (partner with Adobe) to have a Lightroom ‘LITE’ app within the camera to make some quick tweaks to the photos and then via wifi or 4G you could email them to a client instantly. (i know some cameras do have in-camera processing, but i’m thinking more features)
Overall I see people here focusing on the spec details (which i applaud) but ultimately I don’t want people lose sight of the JOY of photography, and if Sony thinks of the paradigm a little differently they could find the next big idea to put them on top. Remember Apple wasn’t always the most desirable brand to own…trust me…many years of app envy towards all my PC buddies who had the best games etc…but being an apple loyalist I had the last laugh.
If my cameras could talk to each other, I’m not sure what they’d say !
I think Sony has been desperately trying to emulate Apple’s success for years now with no clue how or whether it’s even appropriate. Cameras that talk nicely to Bravia TVs … whoopie. I want my camera to play nicely with my lenses and my flash units. I’d love to see consistency of interfaces between cameras ! Give NEXes the Alpha interface instead of the cr*ppy cell phone interface they have. (They took a step in that direction with the Quick Navi interface on the NEX-6). But beyond that, I’m not interested in a Sony ecosphere. I want Sony to provide 3rd party software developers with information to allow great raw conversions (or write their own Apps for the App-enabled cameras). I guess the wifi stuff is cool for those who benefit from it, but make it open – not something that works best with a Vaio.
Maybe I’m showing my age, but I want the camera to do a far better job that it currently does at its basic function – to be a better standalone device – before even thinking about making it play better in some ecosphere that I don’t know I need. Keep the horse before the cart.
@Dennis,
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. Part of my idea does presuppose that the camera itself does just what you described. And overall I think there have been a lot of posts here that tackle/debate that very idea of camera specs and IQ, DR etc.
I was just thinking about taking the thought process one step further so that Sony could really provide a point of difference in the experience of photography. Currently I worry that Sony just makes ‘cameras’ and forgets about the ‘photographer’. So again, assuming they can nail the hardware (which is a huge/important task), I think there’s room to be a real difference maker in the experience aspect of it by providing tools to photographers/videographers that they didn’t even know they needed.
As a side note, if sony could do what i’m describing in the body of the camera and there was a way via customization that you could use and Canikon or Sony (A or E) lenses then i think people would really entertain switching, because if you provide IQ that’s on par or better than Canikon, and those people could use their flashes and lenses, and you have some of the ‘experience’ items i’m describing that the other guys don’t provide…then switching doesn’t seem like such a daunting decision. Yes, Sony might lose on the lens sales but they would grab a better foothold of marketshare.
To just put out a new camera with a ?? MP sensor might not be enough since that ??MP sensor is probably also gonna be on the Nikon Camera of that year or prior.
I have a Nikon D800E camera. I would sell this for this camera yesterday. I want image quality + light weight and portability. I would not carry around such a heavy and large kit if I didn’t have too.
Maybe even if Sony made the sensor square instead of standard 35mm format. This would be even better; FF+.
Sony would need to do the following for me to dump my FF Canon system –
– FF _mirrorless_
– 36+ mpixel (because Canon will have a 40+ sensor at an affordable price at some point in the next couple years)
– Tilt/Swivel LCD (with maybe an accessory snap-on high quality EVF – I don’t need one, but I know other people would)
– Phase detection AF that works well in low light
For the kind of studio work I do, I could use a small, light, mirrorless image capture device. The DSLR is large and heavy compared with my NEX5s (which I don’t use in the studio), and I’m getting on in years.
If Sony failed to provide a clear distinction between pro-level DSLRs and their own FF pro device (in terms of weight and size), there would be little incentive for me to change.
A few more wishes for THE Sony camera: Same sensorpattern as Fuji:s to avoid moare. Not onlu 9:16/2:3/3:4 format but also 1:1. Full electronic shutter for quiet operation and for faster flash sync.
What a camera it would be!
And please NO built in battery grip, I need a light camera.
Please dont make it with the “NEX”-look! I want the RX1 design, its sooo sexy! The RX1- design looks mature, like a finished product. I want an RX1 with E-mount and PANCAKE LENSES!!! Sony, read my lips, P A N C A K E -lenses. I DONT CARE IF THE ARE 2.8 !! Just give me P AAAAAA NC AAAAAA K EEEEEE SSSS!!!!
No. Simply because Sony can’t handle ANOTHER lens mount (full frame E-mount).
Alpha mount is *just* starting to hit maturity now, though still has flaws.
E-mount has improved recently but it still pathetic with only a couple of good lenses right now.
That camera sounds awesome, but we will be waiting another 5 years for any decent FF E-mount lenses.
Why are there so many obnoxious tw@ts who comment here. Let me tell you advise, that out of experience Nikon has more usable dynamic range than canon, you can drag more out of the shadows, and that is the major factor in the majority of my bread and butter commercial photography. But as a general point, do you need to express your opinion is such a derogatory way?
If you take the “base concept of the RX1” and give it an e-mount and the A99s EVF, isn’t that just a full frame NEX-6 ? (What does it have to do the RX1 ?)
I said no. (I shoot a D7000 – former Sony DSLR user – and a NEX5 that’s probably going to be sold as soon as I pick up an RX100). Two reasons:
1. FF. Don’t need it. Wouldn’t mind it, but don’t want to pay for it.
2. Lenses. I’ve been a NEX user for just over 2 years and if I had it to do over again, I’d have bought into m43 instead. The lens lineup still stinks. Sony would have to show me the lenses before I’d ever get sucked into a system based on promise/potential again.
Yes, I would fully commit to a system like this – it’s my ‘dream’ setup.
However, it won’t happen… because something “this good” would mean that I wouldn’t make another camera purchase for 8-10 years, or when I wear it out.
That’s bad business, and why Sony won’t do it.
It’s obvious that Sony has it’s users in a constant upgrade loop. Why does the NEX system seem great on paper, but between small quirks and the horrible user interface, it’s so frustrating to use that I would rather use the RX100… So we get a NEX-5X.
Comically the RX100 has a fairly well thought out user interface and feature set, but you won’t see that in the NEX series anytime soon because who then would buy a crop sensor Alpha?