It’s good news to see Nikon releasing the Nikon D5 and Nikon D500. Not because I want to buy those, but because this will set the standard very high if Sony plans to release a new High End A99 successor and eventually a new A9 Full Frame E-mount series.
It was also surprising to see that Nikon aggressively underlined the mirrorelss weaknesses (See video here from minute 8:00). While some of the points they make are exaggerated Sony has to learn a couple of things from the Nikon camera release:
– Pro photographers need a reliable camera (no lag on operation, easy menu and so on)
– Pro photographers need a reliable autofocus (no missing autofocus shot, no EVF lag time)
– Pro photographers need a bigger body (better balance, better and less fiddly button position)
So dear Sony, just give us a Mirrorless D5 alike camera. Nikon priced it at $6,500 and I am sure for that price you can surely make an exceptional camera!
544 Responses
Thank you sar well said! Sony makes the best sensors, no doubt. They just need some cameras to match.
They already have them… for me.
I’d never go back to a DSLR and mirrorless simply outclasses every DSLR – for ME. I can see how a sports shooter would prefer a Nikon DSLR but that in itself is a tiny market.
In the future mirrorless may be the best for every shooter but that’s not the case today, we just have to choose what’s best for ourselves and at the moment my first generation and ordered before they hit the shops A7 is just about perfect for me 😀
It must be clearly admitted that the D5 is a completely other league than anything Sony has to offer to date.
Time for Sony to come up with the A9 and/or A-mount pro body.
Sony is far behind and they know. They choose to release their gear far away from meetings like CES, because they know that Canikon will steal their show.
And I am an alpha mount user since Minolta 7xi..
IMHO although it can be a halo product but with a really small slice a d5 area is not Sony priority right now.
I am not up to speed enough on the old Minolta AF bodies to know if any of these were aimed at the top pro market, the old Minolta XK was but that was a long time ago. The A900 and A99 were aimed at the second tier pro bodies like the D800 or Canon 5D series. Not sure Sony needs a D5 competitor, but it would be interested to see what their attempt looked like. I expect a A99 follow on to still be aimed at the D800 level but a A9 might go for broke.
You know, what makes these a PRO CAMERA is not that they have no lag, easy menu, reliable AF and such. They are just a part of a system that is aimed towards serious sports/action shooters. That includes lenses, flashes, batteries, service, support and many others.
No, a mirrorless body with a better menu and AF won’t change any of these.
Nothing Sony ever made can touch D5 and D500 as a system. Actually, probably only Canon has ever made something that can compete on this level.
Very well said! Sony need to be persistent at what they do and develop the system as a secondary complementary tool to pros and excellent choice for amateurs as they do.
By the way Sony do fantastic job there.
Broadcast is all over Sony so your PRO whatever doesn’t mean nothing.
Well the choice is easy for real photogs: Blazingly fast tool vs laggy POS
Pro photographers buy Sony only as additional camera to their D500 or D5 or 5D or 1Dx. All these ideas for Pro Sony gear seem quite premature and irrelevant to me.
Sony IS NOT competing with Nikon and Canon straight on as they will loose. Sony simply lacks the technology and support and lenses and many other things to be pro tool of choice. Instead Sony is working through the backdoor and in due time they will hopefully mature and create good enough products so Sony is used as primary tool by some. This is not happening before 2018.
Pro gear is not about names and brands. But about ease to use, how you like it and of course service. And the last part… Sony is far behind.
Also the whole system of lenses, adapters, triggers, flashes, GPS receivers, tethering and so on. Sony has made quite some progress but still lag in some areas
So.. depends in which area you mean… For studio photographers, Sony has not lag. Well, you have the add on to use legacy lens too. A better manual focusing system than reflex one. If you talk about sport area… well. I agree with you. From the time i use Sony in studio with Canon lens and MF… i never missed a shoot. Before, sometimes Canon AF missed the eye… and i had to erase the shoot at home.
Sony’s AF for portraits is amazing relative to Canon and Nikon. I tried a Canon adapter on my A7ii with a friend who shoots Canon – his jaw dropped. A7ii is not so good light did not miss a single shot with any f/1.4 lens we tried. It is amazing compared to DSLR.
Even for studio A7ii has very few dedicated triggers. Almost no triggers with support for TTL and HSS. Sony need to work with vendors to get this more widely spread or include it in their cameras somehow. Another problem is Sony painted the hot shoe black and some triggers do not work at all…
There are the nissin air 1 if you want flashguns with TTL and HSS. I don’t use TTL… so doesn’t matter to me. But there are a solution. In studio i don’t want to use a reflex anymore. Now I bring home 100% of my photos. Even when i use my 85mm at 1.2… now i know that I’m focusing well.
The only lag worse than Fony EVFs is their release tempo for lenses 😀
Again uninformed comment. Can you please check how many new lenses Sony shipped in 2015 vs any other manufacturer? Sony is doing mmore than double of anyone else….
Don’t bother it’s just Angry Photographer.
Hmm..”Fony”…now where have I heard that term before….FANBOOOiiY!
😀
Agreed ! Sony has no service whatsoever except in some Asian countries like Thailand, Singapore, etc…
People talked about that when Canikon started making cameras too, and when Japanese cars started to get in the USA….
>Sony is working through the backdoor
That seems like an accurate description of their work process.
It has been quite a success I hope you agree.
They have created a new niche and filled it with their A7x.
But at the same time they lost their original userbase and surrendered the full-size camera market to Canikon.
I hope they envision more than that for themselves than just a niche camera manufacturer.
You are right on that. It is a pity that they missed on the Minolta legacy. I am quite upset that many of the great things minolta did like auto iso, IBIS and so on turned from competitive advantages to areas where Sony is catching up.
Then again Minolta have been similar – they were not always the most widely sold vendor and had to innovate their way to market often taking very weird steps and sometimes delivering astonishing products. Sony is doing this same thing and this makes me quite happy.
That depends on how you define pro photographer, or more precicely, the working field, 10 and 12 fps with out of this world focus tracking isn’t much use to the table top, stills or studio portrait photographer. The right tool for the right job.
Fully agree. Even fashion photographers do not seem overjoyed with A7R ii and while many pick up A7x as second camera, not many are tossing their D810 and 5D mk3 out of the window (at least ebay prices of those do not seem to be falling fast)
Yes, many 5d3 and d800 shooters still around in this field, however, I have noticed younger guys and esp the ones interested and in need of pro video are going for the latest Sony cams. Personally, I very interested in something like the D500 for exactly what it’s intended for but I would never go back shooting video with these cameras, they just don’t stand a chance against the Sony’s.
Well Fony is literally going to backdoor it’s users by abandoning Emount before 2018 😀
Sony is much more persistent than any other manufacturer if you actually check who has abandoned a product and when. Your comment is quite disconnected with reality. For example all Fuji, Samsung, Panasonic and Olympus have abandoned their customers completely where as Sony is still supporting 25 years old system that has very little sales
Well those manufacturers don’t make the most professional of products, either (GH4 et al being an exception).
Unlike Sony, even a $1000 D610 has all those features.
If Sony only makes a $6,500 full-sized body, that would change nothing.
Not only “professionals” need things like fast lenses, reliable AF etc., but enthusiasts and amateurs too.
Really??? D610 misses at least the first two bullets by very big margin. I guess you did not use that much.
I am more interested in those high ISO figures. I wonder if the results will be usable.
Cameras as cars: Nikon D5 = Merc E63 AMG, Fony A7Rii = Karma Fisker
So Nikon thinks pro = sport and journal photography. Portraits, landscape, architecture and street photography belong to amateur photography.
…even for those Fony cams fail. The most interesting landscapes tend to be in nasty climates and far from electricity. Enjoy your toy batteries 😀
They also sell D810 which is not too bad of a camera.
Yeah.. but an A7rII can play with a D810.. they are Pro cameras in studio or landscape photography. Yesterday seems that Pro photographer are only sport photographers.
Except it dies in cold, rain or when you sneeze on it
trollin trollin trollin..
u hatin?
My A7ii is working decently in all of those conditions. I agree it requires a bit more care than D810 would. Then again A7ii does not look like a pro camera. To be honest only A900 and A850 look a bit like pro cameras out of Sony’s list of cameras to date. I think Sony realize that building a “pro” grade camera is not making them “pro” photography company.
I know u are a troll.. but i traveled Iceland (not so warm place.. and dry) with an Olympus EM10.. and made many photos.. Surprise.. never died!!!! I took photos of waterfall with water coming on the camera.. Not only D5 is invincible.
Because Olympus knows how to build great cameras, I use one myself.
The question is… olympus is a mirrorless?… yesterday Nikon told that mirrorless are shit (in few words). And not for pro photographers
And i tell you… photographers with Canon and Nikon cameras always covered their gear with plastic bags.. I’ve never done it! And my Em10 works!
In the 5 months with my A7rII, I have been to hell and back with it. From tropical monsoon rainfall to dusty desert sandstorm to -25’C below zero blizzard. No issues so far.
-25 C below zero would certainly have a serious impact on the battery. Desert sandstorm would certainly lead to seriously cacking the sensor even without changing the lens…
Mine still works and I have the flu!
Not so fast. I think they are pretty even. I hardly see a difference in real life shooting in IQ. And I am not alone here. I still find my D810 more responsive and faster to focus (except with the FE35/1.4) than the Sony A7rii and get a higher keeper rate for moving subjects. I really like the eye-AF of the A7rii though.
Is that important in Studio o Landscape photography? It is important in sport or reportage. So… when we talk about Pro photographers.. we must report in which field. Many landscape photographers use liveview in their reflex cameras too. With slower AF than any mirrorless camera in the market.
The D810 is often used in weddings and portraits (children, pets), where movement is usual. For landscape work alone, I would still prefer the higher base DR of the D810. I want Sony for eye-Af + silent shooting within the church at weddings (the great DR and ISO-performance is a plus).
I’d like to make a challenge with you to see if you could see differences between some images taken from a D810 and a A7rII. Without exif data.. if you could get 100% of correct answers. Also in DXOmark difference is unnoticeable in DR. Many wedding photographers now use Fuji too. So.. wedding photographers could live without reflex.
You didn’t read what I wrote above. I said, that in real live shooting the differences with these cameras in IQ are mostly negligible. I am talking about other things, like CAF with moving subjects (slide show in EVF with mirrorless, or problems for larger f-stops in dim light), change of settings, flash system use etc. Here I reliably get better performance still with a D750 or D810. We get good performance with the A7ii and A7rii, too (so far I didn’t use the latter professionally for weddings, that will come this year). But both systems have different strengths. So far the A7rii is the first camera I really call on par for most things with the Nikons I used.
Please, Sony, Do Not make a camera this heavy and huge size!! It’s backwards. The forwards world looking at small and portable size, I can assure you this!
Yes, Sony cameras today has many weakness. And the most annoying one is Autofocus, it’s just too unreliable and slow even with the latest product. Secondly, the menu system and buttons design, not as good as Nikon or Canon, I agree. Other than these two, I cannot think of any big issue on using Sony ecosystem. Lens? I think it’s good enough actually, we have quite a number of great primes in various focal length now. In the next two years a lot more are on their way.
Curious to see if Sony launches a pro camera or Nikon launches a mirrorless body first?
Sony will launch a pro body in F-mount sometime in 2018
Nope…
No, but they will design a special straightjacket in 2016 and test the prototype on you. 🙂
I love fashion, can’t wait!
🙂
Nikon won’t release a mirror less full frame. Not after tomorrow. They literally said Fk you to Sony yesterday. Yeah, don’t see that happening.
This can change. What Nikon showed si that they are quite annoyed and scared. Denial and fear I believe to be the first stages of accepting a new reality.
Sony’s smashing the mirror campaign- not all that different I suppose. What annoyed me is how they dumbed down mirror less in their D5 presentation. It wasn’t a fair representation of the current state of AF mirrorless technology and that makes them look weak.
A couple of years ago I watched an american commercial from BMW 7 series.
The moderator started to talk in front of a Mercedes, and suddenly mentioned “the only thing, this car is good for…”
He stepped back and then a gigantic wrecking ball smashed the Merceds out of the frame.
“this!”
And then he started canonizing the BMW.
I think the Nikon guy did similarly the same yesterday.
But is the Mercedes S class worse compared to the BMW 7.
Certainly not. So I don’t give a damn on this presentation except for the facts.
lol – it’s just marketing, calm down.
Think it’s more a case of Nikon not wanting to cannibalise their dslr sales…
Let’s see the D5 and D500 sales. I hope for Nikon they are good but not too sure given the lack of EVF.
remember when nikon said for years that DX is the way to go and they won’t make an FF like… ever? then realized that they need an FX camera to keep up with canon… they did not learn their lesson it seems… bashing someone elses product never worked on the long run.
I just don’t see why Nikon can’t have it’s cake and eat it too. How much further will you let DSLR sales slide before offering a mirror less full frame option- with next gen video capabilities? I just don’t get it.
They just did some shit talking about mirrorless in their presentation.
Admin, an A9 would be very nice. But what are ‘Professionals’ supposed to use it with? The FE 24-240 Lens?
The Batis lenses are the only pro grade lenses today. There are few decent Sony made lenses but those lack the robustness of the Batis line.
Actually Nikon 24MP cameras suffer from lack of lenses much more than A6000 or A7r2. Sony did release some very good high end lenses like 50/1.4, 55/1.8, 35/2.8, 90/2.8, 16-35/4, 24-70/2.8, 70-400 etc. etc. All of these cover well 24MP crop and 42MP full frame where Nikon has very few good ones. Even some of the G lenses like 85/1.8 and 50/1.8 struggle with D7200
???
Nobody is complaining about Nikon’s lens line up at the moment. Even their cheaper 1.8G line is generally praised for being so light weight and high quality. The 1.4G lenses are top notch, especially now that real photographers (so, not pixel peeping reviewers) have figured out how amazing the 58/1.4G is. The zooms are generally best in class or even. Nikon users don’t have much to complain about lens-wise. If that’s not working for you, native mount Sigma Art and Zeiss lenses fill in the gaps. I can’t imagine asking for much more (well, maybe a 135/2 with VR).
The G 1.8 85 and 50 lenses are quite far from good on 24MP crop. The samples I have seen form D7200 look very very disappointing even closed down. My A6000 even with some of the cheaper lenses is way better. Paired with the higher end Sony lenses there is just no room for comparison sorry. Nikon really have a lot to do on lenses at this stage.
You are talking about FF or APSC 24MP cameras? Pure DX lenses are scarce. FF lenses, we have plenty of good and very good ones. I disagree here.
Maybe the Sony-Zeiss are only close to pro grade, but to be fair you should mention at least the FE70200G.
Yes indeed. 16-35 is good one too. I own both and enjoy them. 24-70 is the only Fe lens that sort of does not feel so great from reviews and I have abstained from. The thing is Batis lenses feature very real weather sealing and very robust construction similar grade to the obscenely expensive nikon 24-70 lens
In which respect are the 55mm f 1.8 and 35mm f 2.8 are not pro grade lenses ? These are not f 1.4 I agree but are pros only using 1.4 wide primes and 2.8 telephotos ?
Lately Sony has been adopting a bad practice of releasing some products that don’t work properly right off the bat and need a firmware update to fix the issues, I hope they change that as well.
That’s not as bad as a certain other company, which releases some products that don’t work properly right off the bat and need a HARDWARE update to fix the issues…
Who cares? I don’t really get the “not as bad” mentality, what’s the point of that? To say it could be worse? I don’t think people are interested in that, it can always be worst and that’s not suppose to comfort anyone, it’s not like one product will become better itself because another manufacturer has more issues. “Hey! That guy’s camera doesn’t even work! Cheer up!” WTF. I will never get what’s the point of this type of mentality.
Are you talking about Fuji? Because it’s just their motto and people love it.
It is still better than recalling cameras.
– Pro photographers need a reliable camera (no lag on operation, easy menu and so on)
– Pro photographers need a reliable autofocus (no missing autofocus shot, no EVF lag time)
– Pro photographers need a bigger body (better balance, better and less fiddly button position)
Agreed!
So DSLr is out of the question I guess! I am yet to see DSLR nail perfectly 100 consecutive portrait shots with 85/1.4 lens. My A7ii does it with Sigma 85/1.4 and Ea3 adapter.
So A7ii – pro camera, D5 – not.
Btw, apparently D5 and D500 have Auto Fine Tune AF. They can check the accuracy of their PDAF sensor by comparing it to the Live View and set the proper microadjustment value with one click! That’s what many people have been asking for.
This is great but is not what I am saying. DSLRs with f/1.4 lenses even when calibrated meticulously and very precise in 70% of the shots will inevitably miss 10% or more. At least all DSLRs prior to D5 and D500 do miss – I have tried many of them. I doubt that D5 or D500 will do any better.
A7ii requires no calibration it is just spot on with 1.4 lenses.
Problem is that AF with 24-70 /2.8 Sigma is often wrong I guess due to some bug or compat issue. I use it with EA4 and it works well there…it is a pity.
I think if you use a combination of new cameras and lenses, the AF accuracy of DSLR match both the mirrorless AF and live view MF. Lensrentals had a series of articles on this a few years ago.
Fully agree, same experience, I have never had such a high keeper rate shooting wide open with 50mm and 85mm primes as with the A7rii, kinda important on catalog shoots when you have your client look over your back
If you refer to contrast vs. phase detect on DSLRs, mostly yes. But as soon as you have a moving subject or soccer player or whatever at high speed, erratically and in dim light, I still use my DLSR. Phase detect there is still better in my opinion for this scenario. A d5 excells there. Does phase detect alone on mirrorless avoid these problems? As far as I know one needs to combine both PDAF and CDAF on mirrorless for reliability, which causes additional lag due to the additional CDAF step for final focus. By the way, my keeper rate is higher with the D810 than your 70% more about 85%-95%. With mirrorless I often face the same problem differently, as the AF-point often is still too large and the focus is exact, but on the wrong location 😉 As soon as eye-af kicks in, it is great though.
Surely that’s going to hammer af speed?
You do it once to calibrate.
This is working in some special mode when you perform AF tuning. It is not working on every shot.
Proper body Bigger body.
Pro photographers doesn’t need Sony
I need a camera for sports that is better than my a900. I would like the a77ii but I just don’t know. Had I not gone the Sony route initially, I would have gone the Canon route. I don’t care about studio photography because I shoot mainly sports. My camera has to focus quickly while the subject is coming towards me. Beyond that I need a high fps, good glass, and high enough iso to shoot in crappy evening swimming pool lighting for water polo. If the Sony 7 series could do that, I would buy one. The only issue with Sony is the excellent and life like color rendition out of the box.
Sorry to sound negative, but if you mainly shoot sports, you should have chosen a system that supports that well already, instead of expecting Sony to produce the system you want… Sony does a lot of other things exceptionally well, many of them better than CN and I am extremely happy about what it provides. I do not shoot sports, however. If I was, I would probably be with CN instead.
Jekabs, I hear you. No negativity perceived at all. When I bought the camera, it was going to be used for a fashion blog that my wife ran. She decided to switch to triathlons and as the kids grew they gravitated to water polo and swimming. As the kids grew, money got tighter, so I am now left with the a900 and the lenses that I mentioned. I can manage with what I have but it becoming more difficult as the kids get older and faster, and the equipment ages. Had I known the direction my life was going to take I would have bought a Canon.
I can understand that, started while ago with Minolta film cameras myself, as a hobbyist. I did not choose Sony, instead I just gradually drifted along with it. Up to A850/A900 with F2.8 zooms as I started to get more paid work and publications. Was getting more and more frustrated with what Sony were doing (or more exactly were not doing) with A-mount. Wad almost ready to switch to Nikon (had decided, had saved up the money) when the A7rII was announced. I tried a demo A7s and A7II with some native lenses for a week to get the feel of ergonomics and handling. Shot a wedding with them along my A850. Pre-ordered A7rII next day!
Anyway, what I meant to say is that your time and ability to capture memories you want to is more precious than a lot of other things. Do not be a hostage of the situation and waiting. Switching systems is scary, but if you approach it rationally, it will not be as expensive as you might think. It is also a great opportunity to let go of the stuff you do not actually need 🙂 Take control, decide what is important to YOU and go from there.
Thank you. I understand what you are saying. All I shoot is water polo, swimming, and soccer. I have also shot pro tennis. I would love to shoot more, but I have yet to get paid work. Parents say they will buy, but……. If I get more work, I will definitely switch. The Sony G lens will be pretty useless (won’t receive 30 cents on the dollar for what I paid), but I should be able to get decent money for the Zeiss. The a900 will be a back up body or a paperweight.
I appreciate your comments and am always up for the help.
All this Sony can’t compete bla bla bla. The D5 reminds me a lot of the F5. Big, heavy, top of the line. And close to end of the line. 15 FPS is losing out to video and 4 or 8k sooner or later, where you just edit the pictures out afterwards. You think sport photographers make a lot of money? Tv stations for sure have a lot more donought to spend on gear, video gear that is. And who is there in the pole position? Yes, also Sony.
Reliable camera? Yes, we need that, that’s a given.
Reliable autofocus? Yes, that too is needed by most photographers (I use manual focus, so I don’t really care, but that’s me).
Bigger body? Thanks, but NO thanks. I have and I use bigger bodies, and the reason I’d love to go mirrorless and pick Sony as my next cameras is exactly to move around with lighter gear.
I don’t need a D5 body, as I didn’t need a D4 or D3 etc. Last Nikon I bought was a D300, and it was already bigger than my F100, and a lot bigger than my beloved F3.
As a photojournalist, give me a reliable, sturdy, solid, kick-ass mirrorless in the body of a Nikon F3, and I’ll buy 2 or 3.
I.e. a slightly improved A7R II, with better EVF, less lag, better menus and buttons. Sony is on its path, and it’s the right one. Nikon is on its old path, and they actually feel threatened by mirrorless so much they had to make a comparison in their presentation (never happened before). I’m sure the D5 is a terrific camera, but it’s aimed at a very specific crowd: sports photographers getting ready for the Olympics. Oh, and btw, most D5 are going to be bought by HUGE companies, from governments to big Press Agencies (especially for the Olympics).
*sigh*
Do you even know that Sony is not limited to their E-mount system, and have a proper Alpha line?
Yep, also using laggy evfs
I do, as I do know the “proper Alpha Line”, as I wrote many time in the past, is unfortunately a sad experiment. Sad, because it is/was a great line of products, but it missed its goal at gaining significant percentages in the market share.
You can agree, or agree to disagree, but it clearly seems that Sony it’s becoming a “real” player in the photography market because of its new A7 cameras, and not the “proper Alpha line”.
Having said that, let’s see what Sony comes up with, and let’s see how many photographers at the Olympics will pick the D5, the new Canon, or the new Sony. After all, it’s the marker that decides who lives and who dies when it comes to camera, lens mounts, etc.
No Canikon user will ever switch to A mount..
No pro will ever buy A mount
No well informed new consumer will ever buy A mount.
A mount will ONLY serve current A mount users,
Many of which have already switched. No one else will buy it !
E mount with the ability to utilze all lenses is Sony’s only possibility of gaining new users.
I am/was an A mount user but the Sony lens selection no longer meets my needs.
I will therefore only buy Sony if I can use non-Sony lenses.
I have tasted lens mount freedom and will not go back to being a lens mount prisoner.
A mount, unless it can accept non Sony lense mount, is Simply not in Sony lenses.
A more pro quality E mount camera is definitely a necessaryaddition to the Sony line.
Sony has demonstated no intention so far of releasing a DLSR-quality mirrorless or the needed lenses to accompany this hypothetical camera.
And the only reason for Sony’s “inability to gain new users” with A-Mount – which is unfortunately true now – is their abandoning the system. Remember, it was Sony who killed A-Mount, not customers.
Dead is dead…regardless of cause.
Yes.
But there’s nothing alive in its place. Not even credible rumors. All this A9 / FE 24-70 f/2.8 talk is just wishful thinking so far, while Sony keep blabbing on about their A7x line.
Well said… (I’m no pro but I moved from 1Ds Canon to A7. Never even considered A mount for a second nor adapting any overpriced A-mount lenses).
There are like 12 people on these forums with A-mount lenses creating all this hype… 😀 I’ve grown tired of reading all the A-mount moaning…
Full frame mirrorless is the way to go for Sony. Just as Nikon and Canon can’t compete with that, Sony can’t cater to the needs of sport photographers (and make money on it). Nobody want’s to buy a Ferrari minivan or a Bentley SUV… oh wait nevermind http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Business/Pix/pictures/2013/7/23/1374578996771/Bentley-SUV-Concept-at-th-011.jpg
#buttuglymonsterfor$225k 😀
even if sony made this theoretical camera, no pro is going to switch over from the vast arrays of lenses, especially super telephoto, and support options of NPS and CPS to go with a FE mount camera with quasi support and no lenses over 200mm (and that’s an f/4 at that). then compare the ecosystems, flashes, accessories, third party,etc,etc. Sony should stick with what sony does good – which is make innovative products for it’s consumer base.
I think sony can switch over wedding photographers, maybe if they provide native flashes comparable to canon and nikon, and also dual SD card slots. Wedding photographers are a large chunk of the professional camera business.
THAT’s the market Sony should be gunning for now. Wedding and event photographers who don’t need extreme telephoto. Fix the flash system, dual card slots- that…just that alone would have a huge impact.
Flash system might not be the most critical issue – there is Nissin Air, there is Mitros+, and hopefully there will be Odin II with MIS (announced 2 years ago, still delayed).
For many wedding/event photographers the lack of native F2.8 zooms and dual card slots is probably more serious issue.
Sony said that this market is what they will address in short term, so hopefully that will come to fruition as an A9 (or whatever they call it) with some fast glass 😉
Add Dual Card Slots, BIGGER battery even if it increases the size of the body slightly. It sucks to have to carry 8+ batteries in a bag for an all day wedding. Fast f/2.8 zooms and more consistent AF in low light with slower f/2.8-f/4 lenses.
Thats the reason for a universal mount.
No one has to switch, they can just add a Sony camera to thier existng system.
We can say the same when Canikon tried to take the market from Leica…
Sorry Admin, but mirrorless can’t compete with DSLR-DSLT hybrid (Nikon have classic AF-sensor AND continuous life view from 180000 pixel RGB sensor). .
The fact that I can put a body cap on a D5, and bury it in mud. Dig it up the next day and shoot with it, is a testament to why the D5 is considered ‘Pro’. I’m not a ‘Pro’, so no, I don’t need a D5, but I can respect what a D5 represents.
Please, stop with that bullshit.
http://petapixel.com/2014/05/09/check-happens-6000-nikon-d4-left-exposed-storm/
Everywhere you look the PROs still cover their cameras and lenses, don’t be stupid please.
The D5 is a well built high quality camera but it is a dinosaur. It will be soon be extinct as a class of camera. When Sony or others get the cost down on the 8K chips, all event photography will be screen grabs from video cameras. Why settle for 20 MP image at 10 fps when you can have a 32MP+ image at 30 or 60 fps. There will still be a need to more deliberate and set-up photos but those can be done by lessor or greater cameras such as the Sony A7rII or a Digital MF camera.The 8K vidoegrapher will already be at the events so the still photographer will no longer be needed
Don’t fool yourself, we all know the DSLR has been dead since 2010…mkay
For me and many others who already sold their DSLR gear it is indeed dead, I think there won’t be many people who’d ever like to switch back. And if the best IQ is needed than there still is MF.
The D5 might mark as one of the last cameras of that kind – it’s a dinosaur, a really capable one, but still a flash from the past, regarding the path technology is heading to.
That was before 8k being a possibility.
Even Canon realized that already.
Unfortunately…..I agree, this will take some time still
Gonna need to carry around a car battery to make it through the event. Mirrorless’ crux will always be its battery life.
You like any other video producer?
And did you forgot that Battery tech is what everyone is trying to solve nowadays?
We already have quick-charge, density is increasing and cost is plummeting.
And in the end it benefits everyone, wouldn’t you want a DSLR battery that works for months and weights just a fraction of what you get now?
I don’t agree with your screen grabs comment, that’s garbage. Nearly all professionals and enthusiasts today shoot in RAW, and tons of people complained about the lack of 14bit uncompressed raw in sony cameras until they finally gave it.
The point is, whether it’s 4k or 8k video, they all compress the video into h.264 or h.265 or whatever compression codec. 8k video will need to be heavily compressed to meet data bandwidth requirements of hardware and storage. It’s essentially going to be no better than a jpg.
Add to that, like a jpg, some exposure settings, color, noise reduction and white balance will need to be predetermined and not as easily corrected in post processing.
Still photographers will still prefer full RAW output, not screen grabs.
Full Raw output on 8K is available now.
Yes, but how many bits is that RAW? That’s an intense amount of data to move, people’s computers would need several terabytes worth of solid state drives just to keep up with everything. You would have to take your captures, then discard the raw video because it’s so massive. Unless you have piles of money to buy a boatload of hard drives.
I’d also like a raw screen capture to play with, and compare to a traditional 14bit raw photo. I googled and can’t find an actual comparison that someone has done this, even with 4k raw.
https://youtu.be/PTEj8Gfe144
It’ll only record when you press the shutter. like the Apple Live photo.
Even the FS5 will be able to capture RAW footage in a firmware update.
In the future, high end photography would be always buffering the footage and when you want and you’ll just press the shutter for grabing that footage and you’ll even be able to choose the start or end of the footage, just like they do on High framerate mode on Sony cameras.
Sony has some nice utube videos explaining how the exposure settings work for the Pro cameras, just an unbelievable level of options on those cameras in terms of dynamic range recorded, color space, etc.
Pro portable 4K is here, 8K still is a bit behind. Lots of news coverage today is screen grabs from HD, At newspaper resolution output even 12 MP is overkill.
one example of Sony video https://youtu.be/_T1qy5ZSV-k but many more on channel.
Not all of them: http://petapixel.com/2015/11/18/reuters-issues-a-worldwide-ban-on-raw-photos/
Sport photogs and photo journalists are not allowed nor has the time to do much editing anyways… so for them shooting raw is not an advantage.
For the rest of the pro field yes you are right. But few areas need what the D5 has to offer.
I don’t agree that dSLR’s will disappear anytime soon. But I do agree on motion – Soon there won’t even be screen grabs. Stills relevancy is diminishing.
You are probably correct about the future, but we are not there yet. A DSLR with the capability of a D5 is very relevant in today’s market and not near to being a dinosaur. Driverless vehicles are probably the future, but I need a car with a steering wheel today.
There was a good video about getting screen grabs from video and what video is good for screen grabs and what video isnt.
Shutter angle and motion blur can be good for video (as often used in most films you see today) but motion blur is not something you may want in a still.
So, no, video will not suplant stills as the main image gathering method.
The Truth? lol. Some have been doing it since 2008….
You’re dreaming, man. DSLRs will continue to exist to cater for the remains of that market, much like rangefinder continued to exist to cater for the remains of that market.
Sure they will exist, you can still buy a new Nikon SLR or a Leica film rangefinder, but it is a very niche market. Nikon may spend significant dollars to bring out the D6, D7 or maybe more, but in some years time there is likely to be only two models the top flagship and a midrange body, like there is now for film. Canon used to have their top EOS film body for sale on B&H, I did not see one today. The time frame is very uncertain, might be 5 years, 10 years before they stop R&D on new DSRL models but the day is coming.
Niche market? DSLRs are still 80% of the ILC market. MIRRORLESS is the niche.
Was referring to film SLRs as niche, DSLRs certainly are not niche yet, but the D5 is, just due to the cost. A lot of pros not needing the high frame rates and extreme ruggedness stepped down to the Canon 5DIII level body or the Nikon D800.
Sony have never achieved any real gains on Canikon in dslr market, and they have never released an A-mount or E-mount camera to compete with the likes of the D3/4/5. At best a99 competing with d750 or 5d3. Pointless an a99 successor going beyond this semi-pro level. Given the right design choices an a9 however has a chance to establish some sort of foothold in the pro market.
Can’t say I’ve had issues with af reliability on my a7ii… Sure, it could be faster but it’s far less prone to missing focus than my a77 was.
Thank you guys for the input. My 70-200/2.8G is screw mount but the Zeiss 135/1.8 is ssm (I think). I don’t have the money for the new ssm lens but I do for the 77ii body, which would give me a few more frames that are in focus. Any camera can get a 9/10 keepers on fps when the subject is moving parallel to the photographer. The real test is when the subject is moving perpendicular to or straight towards the photographer, or when a water polo ball is whipped around from player to player. The a7ii cannot produce consistent in focus shots under the conditions I just described. Neither can the a7m2 or whatever the latest incarnation of the a7 series is out. I am just concerned about the crop sensor and how it performs.
135mm 1.8 is screw drive. You are forgiven since you own the 135mm 1.8. I pay homage to the 135mm because it is optical nirvana.
Thinking, thank you for absolving me of my sins / mistakes regarding the 135/1.8 lens. Yes, it is optical nirvana, and one of the only reasons why I would entertain the a77ii. If I could use that lens for everything, I would. When shooting water polo, if I am shooting close to the water, the photos have an almost 3D effect. When it comes time to meet my maker, I will take that lens with me so I can be prepared if there are any photo opportunities in the next dimension.
Zeiss 135/1.8 is screw driven but on my Minolta 7 it is about as fast as Canon’s 135/2L with USM. I think that’s pretty awesome.
I use it on a minolta 7000 no problem. Plastic fantastic.
A bigger body like Panasonic GH4 will make me buy
Saying that “pros” need big camera bodies shows marketing people clinging to the past and trying to differentiate their products from cell phones. A next generation of “pros” won’t want big heavy cameras any more than they want big heavy phones or tablets.
Everyone should win which means offering both options to consumers. I prefer the DSLR ergonomics but admit- if I’m not shooting weddings I pack a smaller bodied camera with a friction grip.
I’d love the ergonomics of an A77II (FE) but without the bulk. Same ergonomics- better use of the upper deck by introducing more command buttons and direct control dials. Taller so my pinky isn’t riding into space like the A7II. Without the mirror box- you’d have the perfect hybrid. Not to big, not to small…and plenty of controls!.
No one can say what the next generation will want and I don’t really care, I for one want a bigger camera. IMO, these dinky sizes are terrible.
Funny how if you look at cell phones they went from large phones the size of a bread box to small thing things that only a doll could use and now have started going back up in size… The point being making things small is a fad that products go through with everyone trying to make the smallest… Then when the fad dies out the product gets back to an ergonomic size that makes since. Sony and others have made smaller and smaller interchangeable lens cameras… Now maybe they can stop the foolishness and make one that is balanced and large enough people without baby hands can use.
And no one like lugging around a super heavy camera, but the reality is physics dictates a limit on how small a lens can be given a desired speed and focal length… And until someone creates ultralight optic quality glass, the lenses for some applications are going to be heavy… In those cases having little munchkin cameras that don’t weigh much doesn’t do much in terms of making things easier, they just make things unbalanced and more difficult.
You seem to equate size with weight. Doesn’t have to be quite like that. Sony could cram their tiny cameras into a larger shell and use that space to deal with heat, more cards, more batteries or any number of things… hell just make the buttons larger and space them out more.
That’s exactly what I am waiting since a long time. A bigger and more comfortable to use camera body, compared to that of tiny a7 serie. I can’t understand why a bigger choice has never been released: perhaps it would cost too much in production? I doubt it, but Sony is always so easy to surprise people that I have learnt not to expect anything from them except great sensors..
Again with this?
Why so much groupie noise for another DSLR?
Focus on the future man, the future.
If we would have been so keen in staying in DSLR, none of the cameras that put Sony in the map would exist.
Was the A99 a landmark camera? No.
Did the A99 win the Japan Camera Grand Prix for most remarkable camera of that year? No.
Did the A99 do anything that the then released D800, 6D, 5DIII could not do other than have IBIS? No.
Call to fame of A mount was A900 and some of the Zeiss lenses for that mount, the last notable one being the 24mm f2.
Now think of all the success and splashes made by cameras from the NEX 7 onwards…
I admit that there are reasonable limitations in an overall system ahead of bodies and accessories for commercial-pro users.
Leave the SLT revilers and the never-happy-with-what-they-have lens complainers aside – the A99 was for sure not perfect, but it is a very capable camera, convenient to use and with very good haptic. The lens range is not multiply redundant compared to Canikon, but complete up to 500mm, except for uwa.
The Planar 85 and the Sonnar 135 are exceptionally superb lenses on A mount.
And if probably nobody knows – there are also superb TS lenses available on A mount – the Schneider-Kreuznach assortment (Super Angulon 4,5/28, 2,8/50 and the Makro Symmar 4,5/90). Expensive, but exceptional built and optical quality.
I get the point of view that A mount has more lens choice than E mount and the quality is mostly competent and sometimes exceptional.
But when we address what is professional and what isn’t, we ought to remember not everyone shoots under the rain, or in -15 whatever, or with long lenses, or with gloves, or needs long lenses, or more buttons. And when I say “not everyone” I mean “not every professional photographer”
Even within my photojourno colleagues there is a wild assortment of form factors in their gear. I’d say depending on the needs of a commercial Photographer, an A7r II is as useful as a phase one.
But we should also remember that many do need those things, or at least want to be able to when the assignment calls for it. That is why Nikon and Canon are successful in that sector, and Sony really isn’t.
I would say from the NEX-3 & NEX-5 onwards given that the NEX-3/ NEX-5 were released well before the NEX-7 and it is these which lead people to adapt countless of glass on it. I think these are the cameras which started the mirrorless revolution, the NEX-7 being a serious amateur upgrade to the NEX-5.
I really do wish people would stop putting pros under one big group. The needs and goals of an architectural or landscape photographer are very different to the needs/goals of sports or wedding photographers. When I hear “we pros” or pros need this or that really annoy me as if the same camera satisfies all pro needs is a croc of crap
Then list your suggestions for both sets of Pro level cameras rather than tell us what we should not suggest, make your own better suggestion.
Thanks for been the voice of “All Pros” but why would I suggest both sets. I am a commercial architectural and fine art photographer. TBH I just don’t care about wedding photography for example. That genre doesn’t interest me, which is why I have no interest (or need) in ever shooting them. My needs would be completely different to another pro’s needs. I shoot a lot of my fine art work on a medium format/digital back combo. My commercial work (now due to speed) usually on the Sony A7rii + Canon TS lenses combo). What these setups offers would be useless to someone else needs. I also don’t feel the need to post my wish list on a forum hoping Mr. Sony reads it. :o)
Unfortunatly your rational thought is a rare things in this place.. 😉
I must tell my wife someone called me rational :o))
Yes, totally agree, and also: where are the amateur voices.
Whenever the subject of pro level E mount camera comes up we get people hollering dont do it we like E mount the way it is.
We understand that, and Sony understands that.
No one is suggesting eliminating small, compact E mount cameras.
What we are saying is that Sony must add bigger more professional bodies and features to thier line.
This in no way eliminates continued development of newer better compact form consumer cameras.
If and when that day comes- then A mount will have ridden into the sunset. That’s the swan song- the official violin playing sinking of the ship. You can’t have an A9 and still have an A mount system. It’s one or the other…now which button will Sony press? We shall see next month!
They might not press that button next month, but at some point they will. And honestly, we all know which it is…
Easiest choice they could ever make once they talk to their finance department
I still refuse to believe the a99xx rumors.
I would not emit any pronostics regarding this given that it is Sony’s decision and only Sony’s decision what they do with A and E mounts. Any pronostics is vain in my view point; just a bet in the air… but we can still discuss though.
But why? E-mount is a niche product. Does Sony want to remain a niche player among companies that manufacture digital cameras, or does it want to compete with the big boys? What you are suggesting is that Sony will choose to remain a niche player. That will be bad for all of us. Once Canon and Nikon enter that niche in any meaningful way, which is inevitable, that will be the end for Sony.
To me the biggest shortcoming of the FE system is physical robustness, and I hope the successor addresses that issue. I’m fine with the size (I prefer it now, in fact), and I’ve learned to live with the menus. But just make them able to withstand serious use.
My A7R2 got some damage which I repaired myself after buying the spare parts given that the Sony service is sub-standard. I was lucky it was not more serious though.
For the record, because I wish it so, Sony must do:
1. Add touch screen to the next Sony full frame e-mount model.
2. Bring out a fixed lens low resolution sensor for medium format (best 56x56mm2) that is mirrorless and at a price point reachable for enthusiasts.
3. A fast 70 or 75mm lens.
4. RX successor with curved sensor and fast 35mm lens.
And also very important:
5. Don’t listen to anybody who says they want a big sturdy camera body, higher resolution, or two card slots (because I don’t need it and it is always nice to annoy anybody but me).
6. Please release an a-mount camera just for kicks when it is obvious a-mount is already dead dead dead.
Ups, 6 we got already. Cool – keep it on Sony!!! I am counting on you.
It’s curious reading the opposing comments here and they highlight some of the difficulty manufacturers face.
The D5 will undoubtedly be a fantastic camera, capable of the very best performance, and only lacking in ultimate resolution. Of course, it isn’t cheap!
However, it’s not a ‘huge dinosaur’, nor is it an ‘A7 killer’. It’s perfect for some professionals, but it’s also not remotely ideal for others!
The simple fact is it can’t be all things to all men, and our own perceptions make it less likely such a camera could ever exist. Even if you could create a size that all hands felt perfect, some would find it too heavy. Yet if you could keep the weight down then some would declare it too ‘plasticky and cheap’.
Would I love a couple of D5s, together with the best glass? Certainly! Would I be smiling after lugging them around for a whole day? No way! But that is just me and my needs.
I don’t think this particular camera will be of any concern to Sony, whereas the D500 may be more of an issue, but all of this conjecture is meaningless without knowing what Sony plan in the future.
Would I love a D5s and the top glass which goes with it ? No. I would sell it all immediately without opening the boxes or trying it even if I was given it all for free. Why ? Simply it is far too bulky and too heavy thus incompatible to carry during my travels…
That’s basically what I said.
I agree entirely that it would be too heavy for enjoyment, but I doubt that anyone could leave one untouched and not tried, especially if it cost nothing!
Funny . . . I would do the very same if an a7rII or a7sii was dropped on my doorstep.
Sony absolutely needs to add pro level bodies to thier line up.
Current E mount cameras can best be described as pro level cameras trapped in amateur/ consumer level bodies.
I thought a pro body is the body a pro uses.
I use a RX and NEX before that.
Are they pro?
Feed the animals, Barry 🙂
I rarely come to this site for the often inaccurate rumors posted but more for witty banter and entertainment of the comment section. This is yet another day you all haven’t disappointed me.
Giggitty.
“So dear Sony, just give us a Mirrorless D5 alike camera.” Add a long E mount telephoto (300 f2.8, 200-400 f4) while you’re at it, or it won’t matter to this pro.
Nah. Make it an a-mount. The lenses already exist.
All I want is a global shutter…. Instead they just keep doing the easy things. Innovate and give me a global shutter that is otherwise only obtainable on things like Red equipment.
Global shutter still degrates the DR, now stacked sensor could do the trick.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/RX100m4_4-700×388.jpg
My golf club looks like the one in the second pic. I throw it alot.
Lol I AM @globalshutter
On IG at least lol
The higher bitrates offered by XQD would be welcome as well. I’d be willing to invest, and I’m curious if other sony shooters would too?
Something funny everyone seems to be missing about the D5 though is that it can only shoot 4K for 3 minutes! Sony’s A7 series is already better for video shooters. I’ll take reliability, but at what cost? Definitely not 1/10th the recording time.
I am pretty sure this is a typo, it will record up to 30min but save every 3min, you’ll have 10clips for every 1/2 hour. Regardless, neither the D5 nor D500 can hang with the Sony’s video capacities
I’m not so sure. But if you’ve seen otherwise, let me know.
From Nikon:
“Movie Maximum recording time:
3 minutes at high quality only for 4K UHD 3840 x 2160/24/25/30p recording
10 minutes at highest quality or 20 minutes at normal quality setting for 1920 x 1080/50/60p recording
20 minutes at highest quality for all recording options except 4K UHD, 1920 x 1080/50/60p and 640 x 424/25/30p
29 minutes 59 seconds at normal quality for all recording options except 4K UHD, and 1920 x 1080/50/60p”
Again, buy a video camera.
So you need to buy three Nikon’s to replace one Sony. One for high resolution stills, one for fast action and a dedicated Nikon movie camera. Sucks to be you.
Wow that really sucks, places this camera into an even narrower niche.
That’s surprising considering the lack of IBIS and full size body that would improve heat dissipation, the sensor must be older technology.
No, it’s in the official stats, not just once, but several places. And, Matt Granger confirmed with Nikon that it is indeed true, the 3 minute limitation. Not only that, but the D500 apparently parses its 30-minute 4k recording into 3-minute file segments. WTF is that?
Thanks for the clarification, Jonathan! Well, that sums it up for us who also shoot video lol
It would sure seem to make the camera a non-starter if 4k shooting is a priority. But on the plus side, you’d figure Nikon could and will fix that with a firmware update sooner rather than later.
It’s probably heat. I can’t say that I’ve had all that good an experience with the Sony cameras in hot conditions recording 4K video, either. I had virtually all of them shut down on me without warning in Botswana this summer.
Yeah but the D5 has the thermal mass of the Aswan Dam.
Upgrade your firmware to version 3.0, problem solved.
If you want a video camera, buy an FS7. XQD makes zero sense on still cameras that multi task to shoot video. The media is very expensive, proprietary and bulky.
This just tells me that you haven’t shot with a D4.
Haha…so while DSLR sales are down close to 25% for both Canon and Nikon and Mirrorless sales have increased in the last 12 months in nearly every market…Sony is supposed to focus its energy on competing with a $6500 wildlife camera….good one 🙂
Haha…enjoy your EVF lag. And your big selection of native af glass 😀
You know what I don’t get? Fangirls like yourself who tries their very hardest to stick to one brand over the other and bashes other people and their choices of gear to use. Go be a 15 year old somewhere else.
Would like to see a war photographer take a sony a7r2 out.for their job.
they would really bad ass with a shoulder belt of batteries
Their are no war photographers. Moscow publishes some drone snaps or some handy cam shots make it to twitter.
And if, the only good the D5 would do to a war photographer is as some armor protection.
So having had a market share of 14% (Sony) and Canikon of around 75% in 2014, for 2015, I read that Sony increased to 15% and Nikon dropped by 1-2% Canon gained 1% in 2015 according to T. Hogan. Most other mirrorless brands lost to Sony. How is this fitting with your numbers?
There is no doubt that Canon and Nikon still hold commanding leads in camera sales around the world. No doubt about that. Additionally, I have never once said DSLRs themselves are going anywhere anytime soon. But if you care to look at the market trends, enjoy statistics or read the financial reports of the various camera manufacturers like I do…you will see what is happening.
The number of people that want to carry big expensive gear is shrinking every year and the number of photographers that are prosumers is growing. That market segment wants lighter and more portable cameras/lenses that don’t give up on IQ (which they aren’t any more). It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see where this industry is heading in the next 5 years….
I would say that you’re incorrect. You do not actually see what is happening. What is happening is that mirrorless plateaued back in 2013, while DSLRs are slowly dropping. The entire camera market is not currently healthy.
The good news for those of you who are Canon, Nikon, or Sony fan-boys is that an unhealthy market plays to the leaders. With Canikony capturing something currently around 85-90% of the overall unit volume in ILCs, they’re the only ones that have enough volume to make back their R&D costs and healthy profits.
I’ve been dealing with people saying one or another of the camera companies is poised to take away the Canikon duopoly for some time. I see no evidence that this is actually happening, though Sony has returned back to their previous market share after a disastrous detour through SLT. I’ve seen over 20 years of Canon and Nikon owners claiming that one or the other is going to put the other out of business. Hasn’t happened. Nikon’s market share has moved a grand total range of 5 points in 19 years of closely measuring it. It seems to swing in cycles, and the D5/D500 and subsequent announcements I expect this year probably will create a slight upswing from their “disappointing” 2015.
In general, everyone is predicted too big a change. Things are pretty locked in at the moment, and it would take a clear market disruption to do so. The last true market disruption we had was DSLRs.
People overestimate the change in the short term, and then underestimate it in the long run.
Rollei was once the TLR champ, Leica rangefinders and Hassis where the professional’s choice. Now Canon and Nikon are king. But the times are changing yet again.
Totally agree.
I used DSLRs but once I tried the a6000 there was no going back. The small size and light weight were a game changer. If you ask consumers what they want, they’ll generally say the want what they already have, only better; but if you’re a Steve Jobs, you show them something new that they didn’t know they wanted, and they might go crazy over it.
I think the idea that cameras need to be big and heavy to feel “professional” – unlike any other technology – is going to die a quick death. If Nikon had designed the first smart phone, it would have been as big as a transistor radio 🙂 but with “great ergonomics”.
A new generation of “pros” or “prosumers” is going to see the DSLR as “Dad’s camera”.
It might not be quick but that is certainly where things are headed. As mirror-less continues to match and exceed the capabilities of DSLRs, photographers will have fewer and fewer reasons to carry around 25lbs of gear with them everywhere. ALL trends in technology are moving to smaller, lighter and thinner…why some think DSLR are immune to this trend…I will never know…
The majority of people I know shoot Canon. Unfortunately, we have not had a new full frame camera to buy since 2012 when the current 1DX/5D3/6D came out. There will be a Huge Spike in sales in 2016 when Canon finally releases the 1DXII and 5D4 in the fall and possibly 6Dii in the winter.
Where is your statistics coming from Colby? Is it USA or Worldwide. Please cite your sources. Thank you
DSLR Sales:
http://petapixel.com/2015/10/27/canon-profits-down-21-as-mirrorless-cameras-cut-into-dslr-sales/
Mirrorless Sales:
https://www.slrlounge.com/sony-sees-impressive-66-increase-mirrorless-sales-last-year/
Did you read the article you cite? The Canon article talks about their profits down does not explain why they are down. It talks about weak yen, but it does not say that there is a 15% in less DSLR sales. If anything there could be loss due to the fact that nobody is buying Canon point and shoot cameras, because of cell phones. Did you imagine the part about DSLR sales down?
Dslr’s are old tech. Mirrorless is the new. You don’t need numbers to see it. It’s pretty obvious.
Not so “obvious.” Tens of thousands of camera consumers disagree with you. Might that change in the future? Possibly, but that outcome is neither certain, nor “obvious.”
It was a quick link grab but since you want more stats, here you go. This is from CIPA and shows 2013 through 2015 and how DSLR sales are dropping fast.
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-201511_e.pdf
You realize that you’re numerically illiterate? Your claim, above, is that mirrorless is up 150% and DSLRs are down 25% “in the last 12 months in every market”. The numbers you actually point to (CIPA unit shipments) actually tell a completely different story: mirrorless is up 2.63%, DSLRs are down 7.56%. And DSLRs still outship mirrorless 2:1. At those numbers, it’s going to take quite a few years for mirrorless to equal DSLR shipments, let alone exceed them.
When the BIG Market leader Canon hasn’t released any new full Frame DSLR’s since 2011/2012, yes the entire graph shifts significantly. What will happen when they release a good 1DXii/5D4/6Dii later this year? Will DSLR sales drop another 7%? I don’t think so…..
If by wildlife, you mean “every professional sport’ and every photographer at the upcoming Summer Olympics that will be seen on sidelines of Rio with either 1DX or D4/D5, then you are right
You think sports and wildlife photographers make up the bulk of people buying cameras…that’s precious….
Sony cannot make one camera to rule them all.
They need a system that meets the needs of all photographers.
They cannot ignore an entire class of photographers..such as wildlife photographers , just because they think some other class of photograpers is the current flavor of the month.
Canon and Nikon think like camera companies…leaving no photography need unmet.
Sony thinks like an investment broker , seeking maximum return fo every dollar spent.
Pro photographers will continue to buy from camera manufacturers, not investment brokers….thier camera system needs to be able to meet the needs of any assighnment or opportunity that presents itself.
Sony equipment presents a constant never ending struggle to find compatable eguipment.
Pros have better things to do with thier time then spend endless hours trying to make stuff work together that just doesnt.
On the flipside, it might be wise to choose their battles, and if they have to choose between cameras that meet the needs of portrait, landscape, wedding, and fine art photographers (not to mention the proverbial soccer mom), or a camera that meets the need of high-end sports/wildlife photographers, which one of those cameras do you think nets them far more sales? They might as well let the Olympic sports photographers go Canikon, while they scoop up everyone else.
Canikon provides for the needs of all photographers..Sony cannot compete against them unless they do too.
Sony cannot amount to more than it is unless it does more than it does.
Perhaps Sony should choose thier battles, not compete with Canon or Nikon, and be content to remain a third rate camera manufacturer.
I don’t know how much money gopro makes, but they don’t compete with Canikon either and have good success. Sony would be totally stupid to go after a mature and less and less relevant market (Olympics for stills). Instead they are happy to sell their video cameras to the tv stations reporting from Olympia.
Sony is very healthy doing the sensors. Nikon already withdraw from that field.
Well, when it comes to third rate camera manufacturers, Samsung overtook Nikon already, and Apple both Nikon and Canon (according to Flickr). That makes Nikon not even third rate. Meanwhile Sony makes business with all of them.
Buy Canon or Nikon then. No one is forcing you to buy Sony. There’s probably less than a 1000 wildlife photographers in the world anyways. Why should Sony care?
Where do you come up with the ridiculous comment that there are are less than 1000 wildlife photographers in the world..???
And why do you think only those priveledged few that have recieved the great honor of being called wildlife photographers by you are the only ones who photograph wildlife..???
I suspect that based on your exclusive definition I would not qualify as a wildlfe photographer, even though I shoot nothing but wildlife and animals…and purchase lots of equipment in order to do so.
Im taking about on a professional level. Why would Sony cater to one of the smaller photography communities? Im not trying to diminish wildlife photography. Im just trying to be realistic.
Then Sony has chosen not to compete with any real camera companies like Canon or Nikon who provide a system for all photographic needs…but have instead chosen. To only compete against insignificant camera makers like Fuji , Panasonic, Samsung who only want to compete for a mass market nitch.
Sony will never amount to more than they are unless they do more than they do…no matter how well they do it.
Your exclusion of anyone you do not deem worthy of calling a wildlife photographer shows you to be a narrow minded biggot..so it is not surprising that you want Sony to be narrow minded biggots lke yourself.
Then how many wildlife photographers exist? 30’000? Or why not cater for astro photographers? Right now Sony doesn’t even have a 2.8 70-200 e-mount. Why would they waste their time and resources thinking about wildlife photographers? To take market share away from Nikon’s 600mm f/4? According to serial numbers, Nikon sells maybe a bit over 1000 of them each year, maybe +10 mio USD revenue (not profit). If they could get half of it (just dreaming), you think 5 mio revenue (think they can make a profit????) would make a dent for an almost 70 billion revenue company? Or take market share from Tamron or Sigma? And BTW, you actually can use Sony stuff for wildlife (as you are the proof).
Barry! I am pinching myself. I completely agree! I wish I had written this myself.
We agree? Now that’s scary.(-:
Well, except for the whole a-mount versus e-mount thing.
I get that Wildlife and Sports photographers want a better mirrorless option, but this industry, more then most, suffers from the “echo chamber” effect where a small group of vocal individuals think they speak for the masses. Are DSLRs going away any time soon…no. But they are dropping drastically in total sales every year while mirrorless is surging. Sony is a business and has to predict the future in terms of product development that usually takes atleast 24 months to create most cameras. What incentive do they have to invest billions in R&D for a product group that is loosing interest as a whole? What would be the point?
I would rather see them invest that money into better mirrorless tech to give you guys what you want rather than fixate on things like A-Mount.
why should lamborghini exist when you got toyota which is vastly more practical? you gotta have high end sh1!t to drive the market and establish reputation.
why should lamborghini exist when you got toyota which is vastly more practical? you gotta have high end sh1!t to drive the market and establish reputation.
You might want to check your spreadsheet. Because it doesn’t agree with CIPA numbers. Mirrorless camera sales have been FLAT for three years now, including this past year. Yes, DSLR sales are down, but not by 25%, as you suggest.
Exactly what I thought, I hope Sony listen to your voice.
I think Sony should work to bring this to their cameras specially for a eventual A9 model, specially now that they have a stacked sensor tech in hands.
You won’t have any screen blackout whatsoever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTEj8Gfe144
Funny you should mention that. Nikon did it first ;~).
And as history teaches, doing whatever first doesn’t mean anything, specially in tech world.
Fony MSRPs dropping faster than their stock prices 😀
As is your credibility troll.
I don’t think Sony is in a position to give anyone a “Hard
Time”. Before Sony could do such they would need to take a hard look at their
own glass house such as their support of A Mount (lack of) as well as all the
short coming’s they have in the A7 series. As a loyal Sony camera customer or
at least was I for one have gotten tired of the “Beta Testing” of Sony cameras
with my wallet and my last Sony purchase was the A7II. I myself (even though at
this time have kept my A7II and A6000) have switched to Nikon and have
purchased a D7200 and a D750 plus a bunch of glass in 2015. Sony maybe one of
the companies innovating and trying new things but at what cost to the user? I
love shooting wildlife and that has become my passion and Sony shows no
interest at all in that market and I am tired of them getting around to it or
waiting for the next glass announcement. So then here comes the people yelling “Adapters!”
Well let me tell you from experience that is NOT the answer. I have purchased a
Canon 500mm F/5.6 L FD mount lens and it is SO sharp but I can’t seem to get
the animal to sit still long enough for me to manual focus! With more practice
I am sure I could but man that Nikon 200-500 f/5.6 on a Nikon D750 is awesome. Also
I have a Minolta 300mm f/2.8 with both a 1.4TC and a 2TC and guess what? They don’t
work on the A7 series! Yep, Sony’s own A Mount TC’s are not compatible with the
A7 camera using the LA-EA4 adapter. I can drop a Nikon series III 1.4 TC right
on to the 200-500mm f/5.6 and autofocus with it on either of my Nikon bodies.
So before the responses start that I am a troll or you start
giving your resume of how you have shot for 30 years and blah blah blah go grab
your rotary phone and call someone who cares. I need my gear to work as I have
been led to believe it would.
Now all you guys talking about how great the Sony mirrorless
focus, Say What?? My A7II has missed many shots hunting focus. Sometimes it
will show green focus lock when you can plainly see the frame is completely OUT
of focus! If the light is a bit low good luck focusing. I have missed many
shots of my granddaughter with the Sony 70-200 f/4 while focus hunted. I for
one like to shoot portraits with multiple flashes and I like to be able to see
the whole face in focus not just the eyes so I typically shoot portraits
between f/4 and f/5.6 with manual flash. In a normally lit room I found the
A7II to be challenged with quick focusing and with a 2-year-old you have to be
quick or you missed the facial expression. I recently switched from 3 Youngnuo
flashes in Westcott softboxes to a Elinchrom system with modeling lights the
focusing problems were so bad that I wanted to add the modeling lights.
I think given time the Sony system will grow and their technology will improve such that it fixes lots of the issues I myself have experience with the A7 series but at the same time
I can’t afford to be a Sony beta tester as the price keeps going up to partake
of the “Bleeding Edge” Sony camera system. I just want to take pictures and
have fun not fight the system.
Your post it too long, couldn’t be bothered to read it
I think he’s right. Maybe you should take the time . . .
Why complain about sony. Just move on to Nikon and be happy. Also if it wasn’t for sony pushing the bleeding edge nikons sensors would be garbage.
So I think with the amount of money I have invested in Sony
camera systems I will reserve the right to complain a bit. I could have
continued on what I feel like are problems with the Sony camera at least how I
see it but as it was pointed out my post was already long 🙂 I have no issue with the Sony sensors and that was one of the reasons I chose Nikon for my wildlife photography (Sony recognized the need to separate their sensor business into a separate company). The other was the Awesome and new Nikon 200-500 lens and of coarse there is more. However, my real issue is the Sony Artisans and the various other people pimping the Sony system without giving people a fair review.
Battery life I can live with other things I can not. These people also tell us
how great the Zeise Batis is and I will never know since I could never buy one
as it was on backorder and looking just now at B&H it still is. The Sony system
falls flat in many areas and instead of coming out with new camera bodies and
doubling the price they should address the issues.
In truth if the ridiculous title of this post had not come
across my Facebook page I would have never posted my feelings on this.
So many first world problems, call your therapist immediately before you harm yourself.
Is this not what this site is all about? So go donate your all your stuff and get offline. Make the world better! 😉
You think this sight is about whining and complaining?
For the year or so I have been here, yeah pretty much. However,
I don’t see it as whining or complaining but rather stating my experiences with the product in response to statements made and if that hurts your blind fanboyism then I am sorry. 😉
Go watch some re-runs of Queen For A Day, I’m sure you will love it. Have your tissue box handy.
Hahaha and I thought people were going to accuse me of being a troll for expressing my opinion but hey you pretty much have that covered huh? The real Troll has made his appearance. I guess I should have thought about your previous posts. Well I am done with you now. 🙂
Sony and Nikon both have a lot they can learn from each other. But in terms of becoming competitive with performance based professionals, the lessons Sony can take from Nikon:
1 — Putting aside the bodies, it’s the system and you need long lenses. In just the last year alone, Nikon has introduced a light weight 300/4, and a 200-500/5.6. The Sony a-mount lineup is lacking in telephoto options, and the e-mount line-up is totally non-existent in long telephoto options. You aren’t going to sell sports and wildlife cameras without the lenses to match.
2 — Professionals care about a great flash system. Nikon’s CLS was already the best. The D5 and D500 apparently now can support wireless flash with the SB5000. Sony’s entire flash system is sorely behind.
3 — Professionals care about speed far more than they care about resolution. Yes, there are some types of pros for whom resolution is a top priority. But for the most demanding performance based pros, it’s about speed and autofocus. Large buffers, lag free cameras.
4 — Professionals care more about high ISO performance than resolution. For the sports pro who needs to be able to push up the shutter speed in difficult lighting, there is indeed purpose behind some of the super high ISO. (though 3 million is a bit absurd).
5 — EVF does indeed have a ton of advantages. But until they eliminate the “slideshow effect,” OVFs will rule for serious sports shooters. You need to reliably follow fast action in the viewfinder, which you can’t do if the image is 1/5th to 1/11th of a second behind. Eliminating the slideshow effect must be a priority for Sony.
Yes, Nikon has a ton they can learn from Sony….. But I’d love to see the strengths of Nikon (lens lineup, flash system, AF algorithms, even their jpeg rendering,) combined with Sony’s mirrorless strengths.
Every time I see a list like this as to why Sony isn’t “pro”, it’s always the same assumption – that they’re not pro because they don’t offer sports/wildlife cameras and lenses. Maybe they’re looking at the actual volume of camera users, though, and seeing that top-end sports/wildlife photographers that will drop $6500 on a camera and/or lens is not the space where the majority of professionals (and amateurs) reside. Look at the Sony A7rII, for example, and what portrait or wedding photographer (certainly the vast majority of the professional photographer industry) couldn’t make do with that? Same with fine art and landscape photographers. Sure a couple native, fast zooms need to be delivered yet, but I’m sure those are coming soon. I don’t think Sony loses much by ceding that <1% of the camera market that will buy a D5-style camera…
I think his post addressed much more general things than just professional sports.
He addressed every troll talking point in an attempt to validate his lame argument. And failed.
Fonk, the D5 / 1Dx flagship pro bodies sell a lot more than what you realize. I will say Sony boasts incredible lenses for sports, namely the 70-200 G2, 300 G2, 70-400 G2 and 500 G, but they only have the bare minimum. There are no solid F4 options in A-mount and E-mount is even worse, with only a single 70-200 F4.
With the lenses you mention, I don’t know if I’d shoot Sony as professional sports ‘tog even if Sony came out with an A-mount D5 clone, simply because those lenses are so crazy experience. For example, Sony’s 300mm f/2.8 costs about $1400 more than Canon’s, and $2000 more than Nikon’s. Get out to that 500/f4, and the difference is far, far worse. It’s almost like they *want* to cede that market to Canikon…
it’s the quality of the lenses much higher grade materials so more expensive don’t ya know
Right, they sell like Iphones.
There are different types of pros. That’s why I delineated a performance-type pro. A sports pro.
I completely agree with you, that some types of pros would already be well suited by the current Sony offerings. Depends on the type of pro.
It’s with sports and wildlife pros that the gaps are the largest.
For other types of pros, the gaps are easier to overcome. For example, you cited wedding pros — Wedding pros absolutely can make do with the Sony FE system, but they still have gaps they need to work around. Most wedding pros want a 24-70/2.8 as their main lens, meaning they have to adapt such a lens on their Sony camera, or use primes. Wedding pros mostly would prefer to have a second card slot, some claim it is what prevents them from shooting Sony. And portrait and wedding photographers all would benefit from improvements in Sony’s flash system.
Landscape photographers can mostly do very well with Sony… I’d say the main gaps are lenses and more complete weather sealing. The widest native FE lens is 16mm. Nikon is famous for their 14mm zoom,and Canon just went wider with 11mm. Further, a landscape photographer can at times work in challenging weather, and the weather sealing on the FE cameras isn’t great. But again, these gaps are pretty minor compared to the sports/wildlife gaps.
So there are areas where Sony can improve all around to attract more pros, but it’s in sports/wildlife where the gaps are truly massive.
Yeah, and I think chasing that sports/wildlife market would be pointless right now, until they plug those other gaps within their existing markets first. Go for the 98, not the 2.
To chase pros generally, my priorities for Sony would be, in approximate order of importance:
1– 2.8 zooms
2– improve the flash system
3– lossless compressed raw. Great, we finally got lossless raw, but only in massive uncompressed files.
4–faster more responsive full frame bodies… How about 6-8fps, with a buffer that can hold 30-50 raw files.
5– telephoto lenses. (Definitely for sports and wildlife, but also for more general use)
6– wider lenses. Both Canon and Nikon can go wider than 16mm.
7– more durable weather sealing
8– Improved battery life
9– eliminating the EVF slideshow effect
10–dual card slots.
Check off that whole list, you’d remove the remaining objections from 95% of pros.
Agreed, across the board.
BS X BS = BS^2
Add an adequate pro support ecosystem to your list, and I am on board with you.
“Pro” support may be overrated…. But… On a related note, reliable repair support!!
I can mail my D750 direct to NikonUSA and get reliable service with turnaround in under a week. And that’s without being registered as a pro.
There are nightmare stories of Sony repair in the USA… everything going through third parties.
So yeah, add reliable service to the list.
Same in France, Sony has no repair service, people have to send their camera to a third party at their own expense and risk… I have read many horror stories about this…
In conventional sports and wildlife, the gaps are truly massive, and that’s why it is a lost cause for Sony anyway. For sports the future will be 4/8k stills extracted from video, for wild life, hey, go pro just took over a big chunk by creating a whole new segment through new technology (called innovation), oh, and btw, it seems go pro is also mega strong in sports… (after all, they don’t use the 600mm f/4 on those formula one cars, do they?). D5 for wild life or journalism is just a last dinosaurus roaring his head a last time..
Adam, for once I agree with you 100%. Sony, I hope you’re reading this.
What Sony could learn: Use an OVF instead of the laggy POS Evf
An EVF doesn’t have to be laggy, as Samsung showed with the NX1. You just have to use more expensive technology. However, an EVF still has blackout issues. You can’t drive the sensor continuously for stills and not have a noise impact. You need to clear and reset the photosites, and right now that takes time, so you have blackout. Note that one of the things Nikon worked at removing, was mirror flip blackout, which was already less on a D4 than any mirrorless camera I’ve seen.
Go finish your bottle of cough syrup and get some sleep, you’re not making sense.
The vast majority of professional photographers are a variation of portrait based photography. Sports and journalists make up a fraction of sales.
All true. Though there are indeed portrait professionals who will use the d5 for their job. The newest upgrade to the flash system, allowing wireless flash, isn’t for the sports photographers. The “pro gap” is largest for sports/wildlife pros. The gap is smaller and more possible to overcome for other pros, but in almost every pro field, there are still advantages to Nikon. (And some advantages to Sony, but that’s another post)
Those wedding type pros, many of them still will take ISO performance and speed over resolution (many wedding pros use the Nikon d4).
So except for the point about long lenses, many of the other points apply to all pros: Need a better flash system, 2.8 zooms, speed and performance prioritized over resolution (though depends on the pro).
Lot’s of talking about pro markets. Me thinks the tourists and enthusiasts markets are much more lucrative and interesting (especially to me – because yes, I am not a pro and I really don’t care what pro tools are out there except for a little day dreaming). And when it comes to pro markets, the video market is so much more important for manufactures, and that is where Sony is already strong.
Enthusiasts and pros overlap. “Tourists” are not very lucrative… They don’t buy the $2000 lenses.
Sports pros may be the 1% of pros, but they get a lot of attention from Canon/Nikon because they are so lucrative. Forget the $2000 lenses, they buy the $5000 lenses.
Canon/Nikon/Sony can make more profit by selling to 1 sports pro, than they would make selling to 20 tourists combined.
For once Adam, we agree.
Eh I’m a pro that uses Sony a7 bodies….wedding/portrait photographer The low light performance of the a7rII is very, very good….not necessarily in terms of noise alone, but in terms of the color fidelity and DR at high ISO. There’s more to high ISO performance than noise (which is the one area where the D4 sensor excels).
That aside, the main reason I prefer mirrorless bodies to DSLR’s in general is AF accuracy. Nothing more frustrating than having key shots ruined by the AF mishaps that are inherent to the off-sensor AF systems used in DSLR’s. I need reasonably fast AF, but I don’t need sports and wildlife caliber AF. The a7rII and a7II are plenty fast, but while being much more accurate. Eye-AF in particular is a game changer for any type of portrait photography
There’s a common perception that DSLR
s are professional and mirrorless cameras are not. Thoese perceptions, ironically, are for the consumer market who want to emulate perceptions of what professionals use. At the end of the day…who cares what other people are using. If you’re a true professional, you understand your equipment and your craft well enough to know what works best for you and what doesn’t.
I do professional portrait work. I just wrote up a review of the A6000, and I highlighted my opinion that Eye-AF is a game changer for portrait work. (And I’m sure continuous AF-eye-AF on the A7rii is a game changer for candid portrait work).
My post was about the advantages of Nikon over Sony for pros. But I completely agree with you that there are also advantages of Sony over Nikon/Canon for pros as well. It’s not like all the check marks belong on the Can/Nikon column. There are advantages for pros in using Sony mirrorless as well. And I’d rate eye-AF on top of that list.
Among the many many advantages for pros when shooting Sony:
– AF accuracy, particularly eye-AF. I agree it is game changing.
– Less weight is an advantage for a pro shooting a wedding, and will be carrying the camera and gear for 8 hours.
– Fully usable live view… Makes is much easier to capture shots at tough angles, like holding the camera overhead to shoot down onto dance floor… Sure, Nikon may have some cameras with tilt screens, but not very helpful if you can’t get quick AF to go along with it.
– A long list of video advantages for a Sony pro, including phase detect AF in video, using viewfinder for video, etc, etc.
– EFC and completely silent shutters… to reduced shutter shock photo softness, and also for quieter operation (at wedding ceremonies for example).
I never meant to suggest that Canon/Nikon have all the advantages over Sony, nor that one can’t shoot Sony professionally. Shooting Sony has advantages, but there are also gaps. Some pros, including yourself, may see the advantages big enough, that you’re willing to work around the gaps.
If and when Sony eliminates the gaps, then you will really only have a list of advantages.
Which makes Adam’s long winded sales pitch fractionally correct.
Par for the course.
Please, not bigger. Just better laid out. And use your own XQD card system Sony. Especially with a camera that generates 80MB RAW files!
Really what Sony is lacking is speed. The next step is a stacked FF sensor and an upgraded CPU (let’s leverage your smartphone expertise like Samsung did Sony) with XQD for the card format. With a faster scan rate the EVF stutter can be all but eliminated and the frame rate is limited by the speed of the shutter or, if shooting fully electronic, the read-out speed/heat limit.
If Sony would also open up their miShoe system like they have the e-mount the flash problems would be gone. So many compelling third party solutions that just lack the proper protocols.
A99 size is best. The rest is just toys
A99 size may be best for YOU but not for everyone. Like Joel, I prefer the small form factor of older film SLR irrespective wether people believe these are toys or not…
once you put on a 24-70 2.8, you’ll think differently. Oh wait, there is no native 2.8 zoom lens for E-mount 😀
Nikon F5 or nothing.
Anyone who says DSLRS ‘are dead” or “have been dead” I invite to turn on their tvs this summer when Summer Olympics come to RIO and look at the sidelines of EVERY event. Check out photogs from EVERY country [Some say Getty Images only supply Canon DSLR gear, so I invite you to look at other photogs not working for Getty Images]. See what gear they would be using. Report back if you see any mirrorless body. Now maybe Sony releases a great SLT DSLR between now and Summer, and that could make it out there, who knows
When on assignment for Associated Press I use a Canon 1dx and since june a Leica Q. A collegue uses his 1dx and a Sony a7r (mark1): the latter only when things are calm and slow, because image quality is there, but not responsiveness.
Btw, there are different tools for different jobs.
of course, that is why I took offense when a Sony Artisan Photographer in the comments below suggested that DSLRs are only for wild life.
They are on the way out whether you like it or not. I’m sure if you worked for Kodak back in the day you would of been one of the guys that didn’t think digital would take over right? Why do you care about dslr’s so much? You work for Canon? Embrace the future and stop holding on to the past. Life will be over before you know it so enjoy it.
I have far more faith in Canon and Nikon’s ability to predict the future then you, who, as far as I know, is (no disrespect intended) a nobody. Consumers are still buying Nikon and Canon DSLRs in droves, and they are for the most part, the pro’s cameras of choice. Sony has made some admirable inroads on that dominance with the a7 series, but don’t kid yourself. DSLRs will rule the earth for the foreseeable future.
Not all who have eyes can see. You can find my website in my profile if you click on my icon and decide for yourself. Either way enjoy your dslr.
To paraphrase your response, Canon, Nikon and the vast majority of the camera purchasing public lack your astute vision as to the immediate future direction of the camera market.
Without visiting your website, I am going to assume that you are a fine photographer. That doesn’t make you a marketing specialist in the digital imaging realm. Perhaps you are just a bit out of touch, or at a minimum have an inflated and uninformed perspective on your own ability to predict the same?
And yes, I do very much enjoy both my Sony DSLR, and my Sony mirrorless.
All I do is photography. Im more than in touch. All the photographers around me are ditching their Canons for a A7 series. EVF is better all day everyday. Pretty much every camera of the year award is going to the Sony A7 series. Not to mention the a6000 crushing the consumer market. I also put my money where my mouth is and bought thousands in Sony stock. Since 2011 it has almost tripled. And Im willing to bet in the next 3 years it will double as Sony continues to take over the market.
Again, with all due respect, that does not mean squat. Anecdotal evidence about what other photographers around you are buying is relatively insignificant. Canon and Nikon are investing huge amounts of money on the development and production of DSLRs based on comprehensive market research. They know more about the market than everyone on this forum put together. (Presumably, Sony has done the same, which is why a a99 replacement said to be around the corner – – if you want to lump DSLTs and DSLRs together.)
As for the price of Sony stock, Sony is on the rebound from a pretty dark period in its history. No doubt its digital imaging division has played some incremental role in the recovery of its stock price. But Sony is a huge conglomerate which derives revenue from many sources. Digital imaging revenues are no doubt only a very small piece of the total pie. Its more likely that Sony Entertainment has done really good in the last three years.
So good for you that you own Sony stock and you had a paper gain. It doesn’t make you an expert in predicting where the digital camera market is going. Canon and Nikon would not be making huge investments in DSLR if they thought it was about to go the way of the horse-drawn carriage. Quite clearly, it is not anytime soon.
If they know more, why hasn’t Canon released anything of worth in the last 4 years? The 5DS was only a response to Sony coming out with a high mega pixel camera (which Sony makes the sensor for). Canon is asleep at the wheel (which Ive been saying for 3-4 years). At least Nikon is attempting to do better but the D5 really isn’t a challenger either. The photographer of tomorrow is also going to have to be able to do video. Which Sony is taking into account.
I have a pretty good idea of whats going on. 3 year of being photographer as yielded me
Awards
1 First Place and 9 Honorable Mentions 2015 International Photographer Awards
2 Honorable Mentions 2015 IPA One Shot Competition
1 Honorable Mention 2015 Moscow International Foto Awards
8 honorable mentions 2014 International Photography Awards
Interviews / Features
WIRED Magazine
TREATS! Magazine (issue 9)
Forbes
Yahoo (background themes for “My Yahoo” main page)
Beverly Hills Life Style Magazine Winter 2013 (print)
LiveFastMag
LAist
Complex
Gawker
Leveled Magazine
LA.com
Lomography
NBC News Los Angeles
Hi-Fructose
SodaPop Magazine (cover and feature)
StrongBox Magazine (cover and feature)
Latch Magazine
The Rockaway Times (front page) Vol 1 No 46 (print)
You really are an a7 fanboy, aren’t you? Look, you aren’t the first, and you won’t be the last photographer to believe that they know more than they know about marketing and product development in the camera industry. I don’t care how much you may think you know about snapping photos. You don’t know anything about marketing and product development relative to the product development divisions of Canon and Nikon.
As to some of your other points. Canon does not apparently see the need to upgrade its flagship cameras every six months. They are good to begin with, continue to sell, and I expect their customers would not be happy with a policy that renders those cameras obsolete at short intervals.
Its cute that you thing the 5DS was only produced to compete with Sony’s a7 series, but your belief is not grounded in fact or reality. That’s just blatant fanboyism. Canon produced that camera because they believed they could sell it in droves with a healthy profit margin, and as far as I know, they have been entirely correct.
The same with the new Nikon D5. Comparing anything Sony currently offers (lets say the a7rII) to the D5 is like comparing a little pug dog to a Cheetah. If I want a camera that I can take anywhere, shoot anything, high-speed action or not, in bad weather or good, I want the D5. If I want a relatively slow camera that takes high megapixel pretty still pictures, has a limited set of available lenses, has to stay indoors in the rain, has short battery life, and poor customer support when things go awry, I will take the a7rII
In 5-7 years maybe. But then the pro models will not have a Sony badge.
And you’ll probably will be watching all of that captured by SONY broadcast cameras, so what?
I’ve been seeing A7 bodies at ufc events press 😉 so…its getting there.
There’s another 6+ billion people on the planet that aren’t shooting the Olympics, to call what you’re saying is dumb would be the understatement of the year.
lol agree here
It’s about how good you are at photography. There are people who can’t shoot even with a D5…
I dont think that I’d enjoy shooting with a D5 since I prefer the exposure control offered by an EVF.
Part of me would be happy to see Sony grab more market share with a larger, pro-featured A9, even though I wouldn’t personally want anything bigger than the A7 series.
On the other hand, I’m afraid if an A9 comes to market, the A7 series will be come second class citizens in terms of features, as they will no longer be Sony’s “flagship” cameras. For this reason I actually hope an A9 never comes into being.
My European local camera dealer have sold 1000’s of A7Rii. They had palates full of them in their warehouse. They had 2000 on pre order alone.
How many D5 will they sell? I’ll ask them if pre-orders break double figures.
The sports event photographer – the last bastion of the flappy mirror. How many of them will be in Rio? There are 5800 accredited press in Rio Olympics. Most are journalists with maybe 2000 photographers. 70% will be on Canon. Not exactly huge sales for Nikon there.
Next gen Alpha with FF stacked sensor, ungraded CPU and XQD, more quality E mount glass… I’ll give Nikon another 2 years before they’re out of business.
This must be a big “local” camera store. A 3500 Euros camera here where I live, is not selling in 1000’s in a single camera store nearby. Then consider that Sony has a small market share and this share is not from selling A7rii and A7sii only, but mostly a6000. Where are you from?
I think he works in Sony’s Division of Wishful Thinking.
A 3,500 Euro camera body without lens is fine as well as the cheaper but nevertheless equally good A6000. People are free to buy what they want and can afford.
Of course. However, the original post was about the immense sale in the 1000’s of the A7rii in a local camera store which is very unlikely in my opinion. I am a fan of the A7rii, by the way.
wait , and see 🙂
Alright, so this blog post seemed to open up the floodgates for fanGIRLS from both sides. I own multiple systems. I use a 5D mkIII, an a6000, and an a7II. Hell, on occasion, I use a Rebel XS FILM camera. I’m comfortable with my decisions. Some of you… A lot of you are so god damn insecure, on BOTH sides, and I gotta wonder why? What drives some of you to bash other companies and moreover, bash other people and their choice in what they shoot with? I understand brand loyalty in the camera world because I would be pretty pressed not to switch brands when I own a ton of glass from a previous system (such as the EF mount), but to bash others for their own decisions? Get out of here with that stuff. If you like Sony gear, fine. If you like nikon or canon stuff, also fine. Don’t get into this CRYBABY argument over who is better. If anything, you should be condemning the author to this blog post for posting such hot garbage to begin with.
Mostly Sony users who realize they invested $$$ into overhyped toys that depreciate quicker than Lehmann stock in 2008.
You’re exactly the person that I’m talking about and you don’t even realize it yet. So what? I get a pass from being that “Sony user” because I own and use two Canon bodies? Do you realize how condescending you sound over cameras and what INDIVIDUALS use? Using a system from a certain brand is a choice of the individual. If they like it or don’t like it, it’s all on them and not on the rest of us.
I know I try this one on people selling there sony stuff to get a better price. .. do sent usually work. Though I did manage to sell all my nikon stuff before it became worthless. Even converted from my loved canon camcorders (xa 10 20 30) to the ax100. Sony has some great features and usability. they have been getting a lot of my business as of late! even traded an s6 edge for the z5 premium which I’m liking so far for being a brick. your probably an iPhone guy right ?
so true. fangirls (good one) are like hardcore religious freaks. already invested in a-mount and e-mount. if sony doesn’t come up with pro worthy cameras and more lenses, i will add nikon to my investment. shoot with whatever works best.
See? You get it. Shoot with what YOU think will be good for YOU. As much as I see value and usefulness in my Sony bodies, I still see and utilize my Canon bodies in tandem. The one thing I hear echoing from the likes of Amateurs and Pro photographers is that while they tend to stick with a certain brand, they always tell aspiring shooters to use what they think works best. To be honest, I see the same brand-loyalty in other things (game consoles, phones, etc), but I didn’t think it would be this bad because I see the logic in sticking with one brand in the camera world (the glass and whatnot).
While I have had some spiritual moments on hikes taking pictures, I fail to see how religion Is relevant? You must of had a lot of visits from the door to door suits.
He’s implying that people tend to worship brands like a religion… which is a fair and true statement.
Sure I suppose. It is strange how emotional people can get over other people’s choices. If they would only take a moment to think about how absurd it would be to carry that thought further. Would they want others telling them what they had to eat etc?
I agree with ya mate. hardcore fanGIRLS crybaby comments are quite interesting to read. entertaining should I say when they get their thongs all twisted. lol
I really don’t care about what other people choose to use. As you said, you should buy and use whatever you like. Bashing other brands is pointless. BUT I don’t see this blog post as garbage. If anything it’s good. More competition between brands is a good thing. Nikon is stepping up their game and as a result hopefully Sony will also step it up on their turn.
I also am using multiple systems now because no one brand/system will do everything that I want it to do. I started out as a loyal Canon user. I still have my 5D3 and use it for stills and for some video. However, in the recent years Canon has fallen way behind to the mirroless systems for video use and so I ended up getting the GH4 and now the A7SII. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and I constantly wish one camera had the same feature or capability as another… but that’s never going to happen. If I were a smart guy I would love to take them all apart and make a Frankencam that has all the parts I want but unfortunately I can’t. 🙁
In the mean time I want Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Leica, every freaking company to continue to innovate and do new cool stuff with each new camera so eventually they will all have to catch up or one up each other in order to survive.
Well sais mate !
I wonder how long until I can pick up a 1Dx for 600 bucks.
Or a D4.
About 3-4 years. Quality stuff doesn’t depreciate like Sony “cameras”.
Try selling your “Quality Stuff”, prepare to be shocked.
I have read about 5 comments from you so far. All negative or deragatory, or inflamatory. The first one was you calling someone a troll and to be banned. I don’t like your style.
Why?
What sony EVF lags? Do you have a link to your photos, I’m curious to see. And in all honesty, depreciation is a good thing. There are a lot of young people that want good equipment and can’t afford it. If you want to pay a higher price to have new technology so be it. If you don’t, just wait a year. Even a 1 year old Sony A7R ii will be better than anything Canon or Nikon will have new at half the price.
In a lot of ways yes. The D810 still is considered by many to have as good or better iq potential as any Sony. If it were not for the huge size and price I would look hard at a Nikon dslr. Sports and birding would be a lot easier.
Ture, but Sony’s stuff is more of a complete package. It has the photos side covered as well as really good video, plus 5 axis stabilization. HEY SONY hire me already, lol. Its all honesty its all comes down to whatever floats your boat. Buy what you like. It just getting olds people trashing Sony that don’t have a clue and probably have never used the camera.
It sure does. I get the emotional attachment people develop, you make a decision and put your money behind it. It’s too bad people tend to forget not much in life is one size fits all. I would love an rx1rII or A7R II. Too much money for me as a hobbiest and I actually like the crop and additional depth of field. Maybe some day, I’ll get a FF set up as well.
Try a used a7ii. That camera is crazy good for the money. You could probably get one for around $1100. Look up Kelser Tran, he uses that camera and is an insanely good fashion photographer.
Thanks, I will 🙂
Edit: His insta gram feed is very “exciting” haha 🙂
The D810 suits me better than sony. I made the mistake of getting a sony a7s and A7r…. quickly went back to Nikon
soon as I got to use the a7rii.. sold all my nikon gear tbh. happy with the 35 2.8 55 1.8 and 70-200 f4 with black lenscoat can’t stand white lenses. Now just waiting on supposed new fe lenses.
Low perceived value isn’t always a good thing either. Then there’s the issue of what kind of shape will it be in?
a7rii will still be expensive in a year
Why ?
Being rude and confrontational turns away any meaningful discussion with almost everyone. It also sets an impression for future interaction where most folks won’t take you serious even when you are trying to be. With no meaningful back and forth the chance to learn something is diminished. I come here to read rumors and have interactions with others who are probably better photographers than me in the hope to better myself in some way. What you are doing takes away from that. You are wasting your time and the time of others. There are only so many hours in the day and years in your life, why waste them needlessly?
I am sick in bed, only this is why today, my dear, you are blessed with my attention.
I’d heard you’re not good in bed Anton. Like photography, practice, practice, practice my dear!
Because you’re an idiot troll possibly?
Ad hominem much?
Stop whining, you deserve worse.
Non of that now…Mr. Instigator.
That’s cute. Guess who’s back btw, I m done with smashing now.
Can it be true! The one the only!!!!!
Style?!? He has no style!!!
You’re killing me. You probably can’t even get a still functioning best up 1Dx for less than 2k – 2.5k. Even when the higher pixel count successor arrives the 1Dx will still sell for a pretty penny.
A Sony fanboy can dream…
I’ve been renting a 5D3 and a couple of lenses the last couple days, and on my god, that L glass… Even if I never own a Canon body, I might buy myself some of that glass and adapt it on an A7x.
Really? Hmm, I’ve never tried any L glass. Well, tried a buddy of mine’s 24-105 I F4. INteresting.
Specifically, I’ve been shooting with the 50mm f/1.2 and 24-70mm f/2.8. I don’t know about the others, but these two are gems. Really want that 1.2…
Don’t worry guys…Nikon’s D5 is here to stay for another 4-5years. Sony releases cameras every year(multiple FF cameras every year that is…)
Only thing I would like from the D5 is that touchscreen…maybe that ISO too 🙂
Sony will release an A7 SB (still buffering) next year ahaha
If you think Sony is going to keep doing huge yearly updates to the A7 series, you’re probably wrong. The market isn’t big enough to sustain that level of R&D.
May be not for revolutionary update, doable for incremental update A7 from Sony.
One problem is this: despite getting better a control placement and function, I’d say the A7 series is still sub-optimal on that. What that implies is another body change. Retooling every year gets expensive.
Out of curiosity, are you planning to put up an A7rii review shortly?
Working on it. Almost done, but after all my travel, came back to office sick, and thus have fallen behind a bit (more ;~).
“The market isn’t big enough to sustain that level of R&D.”
I think you fail to realize just how big Sony actually is. They could quite literally throw Nikon’s entire operating budget just at R&D and not have it make a dent in their fiscals.
And I think you fail to realize how big Nikon is. Nikon just raised 2b yen at basically 0 percent interest to finance medical acquisitions.
This isn’t about how big your dick is, pardon my crudeness. This is about whether you can justify the return on investment (or lack of it). Sony, in particular, has been going through a period where EVERY cost and investment is now hugely analyzed for it’s ROI. They’ve been jettisoning things with negative ROI.
So, if you’re suggesting that Sony would spend enormous sums to take market share at a negative ROI, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong. Are they investing in their future intelligently? Absolutely. Indeed, I’m personally very happy that Sony seems to finally have gotten wise in how it is appropriating resources. That bodes well for their future products, and I believe that the changes they’ve made will keep them in the camera game. That was not absolutely clear a few years ago, and it was actively debated internally at Sony whether still cameras were a product that should be in their future plans.
I would be more interested in a mirrorless D500.
Why, you like slow AF and laggy viewfinders?
No, I want a Sony version of the nx1. But with a great body like the D500.
Tell you what, the video quality of these new Nikon’s is shameful for 2016. Missing basic features like peaking, zebra… , with a 4K sensor heavily cropped, and a 3 minute recording limit.
It’s like they didn’t look at any new camera’s from the last 5 years.
Nikon doesn’t care about the video output of these two bodies. They are a very specific solution to a very specific kind of photography.
Then why are they marketing so hard with video? They are deliberately being misleading by marketing the D5 as a serious cinematic camera
Yeah it’s strange. It’s as if their engineering department and marketing department don’t talk at all. If I was the CEO of Nikon I’d make damn sure to have the best possible video at each respective price point compared to the competitors. Nikon doesn’t have a pro cinema division like Sony, Canon, and Panasonic so they can easily create products with superior video specs to their competitors and gain an advantage over them. For some reason they choose not to and that’s a shame.
Why do they market the miata as a sports car? Because they can. But obviously none of these DSLRs, not even the Sony A7 series are serious tools. Bitrates too low. Don’t have proper video tools.
6,5k for a monster-body, omg… for that price I can buy the exeptional A7RII and add both not less exeptional 25 and 85 mm Batis lenses! And with some luck I will still have some moneys left for a nice weekend to play with these gems
There is no doubt you need to be into some very specific kinds of photography to justify the money outlay for either of these two new Nikon’s. Because for general use, a a7 series body or a d750 makes a lot more financial sense.
Not surprising the first comment I read is a totally irrelevant comparison.
Troll, admin pls ban
Is a bigger body that important? What I meant is, is it mainly a concern for ergonomics or to fit more things in it? I’m not bitching or anything, I’m just curious. I’m a small guy and I personally love how the a7r2 feels. I was satisfied with A7, but once I experienced the a7r2, it just felt really nice and solid.
It’s just people clinging to the past. Are you old enough to remember the original IBM PC – with that huge heavy keyboard that was modeled after their electric typewriters? Oh yeah, “professional touch typists” had to have it. In a few years, landfills were full of them.
I’m 34, but I didn’t have a computer until sometimes my college years so I don’t think I’ve experienced that.
Do you mean the Model M which is still sought after by many?
People who don’t know what they are talking about will dismiss it as “people clinging to the past” or something like that. Let me put it to you this way. Have you ever used a long lens with your a7r2? If not, give it a try and let me know how it feels to you ergonomically. And for shooting action, it is also quite handy to have physical controls at your disposal. Diving into the cameras menu system to change a setting is a not-starter. With the additional landscape of a large body there is room for those controls, as well as for multiple batteries so you can run for hours at a time without losing power at an inconvenient time and having to change out.
70-200 feels great to me. It’s the lens that is most often on my camera. I don’t have any longer lenses, but if I did, I suspect that the battery grip would be a good solution.
I actually have. I use long lens on any camera the same way. I hold the lens itself and not the camera. I have a Canon 70-200 2.8 on an A7. Although it feels huge, it doesn’t bother me anymore on it than it does on a dslr body. Even when I have it attached to a 5d, I still held the lens barrel.
Adapted 70-200 makes your camera look pretty ridiculous though….
I don’t like adapters in general, but that is all I have to work with for now. Plus I didn’t say I liked adapters. Its the weight have big lens on a small body that is the topic at the moment at least. :-p
Actually I don’t think a bigger body alone would satisfy most people. What they actually want ist a bigger body to: 1. Get a bigger grip, 2. Get a bigger battery in, with more juice and 3. a second SD card slot, which uses more space as well.
So I don’t think the body would need to be much bigger. Just a little to get all those things in.
You know whats funny?
Sonyalpharumors D5 announcement – 292 comments.
Nikonrumors D5 announcement – 106 comments.
We come here to talk aboight what Sony will be doing or should be doing that they are not currently doing.
That is why SAR is the most popular photography rumor site.
Canon and Nikon users are more satisfied with what they are doing so they have less incentive to talk on rumor sites.
You are better than others, but still too serious. Trying to formulate any rational base for local commenters population…. pfff….
well, at least SAR addiction is safer than unprotected promiscuous sex!
Wouldnt be so sure, i heard of people getting aids because of it too.
Nikon rumors D5 detailed specs – 483. NR D500 announce – 831
Dpreview d500 announce already at 950. These new bodies are making lots of noise, particularly the D500. It kinda stole the thunder from the D5.
But nice cherry picking of posts.
>talks about all kind of post when i was specifically about announcement ones for joke purpose
>puts in one basket d5 and d500 when i was specifically about d5
>uses dpreview, with much larger general audience than “rumor” sites, and d500, with much larger amount of people intrested in actual purchase, for comparison
>talks about cherry picking
pff… you no better
>Tryies to recover from having egg on face.
Epic fail.
Erm, you forgot to relogin under some other username.
Cause when in “conversation” between only 2 parties one of them points finger at other and screams “epic fail”, it the level of kindergarten child.
Actually the d5 spec and announcement posts got like 1300+ comments. Besides that, Nikon users can be sure to get high performance gear and don’t need to dream up and hope for fantasy products. Unlike Fony fanboiiiiis.
Then lets sum up local comments too…. and make a couple posts more.
And for majority of nikon users that high performance gear exists only in dreams and fantasy too, no matter if it is actually made.
as @disqus_kUFYsheeUZ:disqus said above.
Speaking of “hidden agenda” and how people can manipulate data for their own purposes. You should be ashamed of yourself
You mean, i should be ashamed of little silly humor?
Data manipulation? I was talking only about *announcement* discussions, not the whole discussions. No manipulation, just narrow topic.
You should be ashamed of youfself, taking this silly post seriously.
Yeah, now that you have been exposed as being disingenuous, suddenly you were just joking. Hahahaha!
>>You know whats funny?
You mean “funny” is no sign of a joke yes?
Oh, i forgot, here it isnt.
yeah, that’s because nikon users are busy making photos while sony users are waiting for new cameras
Or its just more people here that are not *sony users* but are *sonyalpharumors comment section users*… Considering that i expected response like yours being first but got at least 3 “peope” attacking joke post it seems to be true.
There have been two separate posts for the D5 and the D500 announcement on Nikonrumors (plus a couple of followup posts since) whereas there was only one post for the D5 and D500 combined on Sonyalpharumors. The original D500 post on Nikonrumors now has 890 comments and the D5 122 comments.
Just disagree about bigger body. 🙂
“Pros need a bigger body (better balance, better and less fiddly button position)”. That’s BS.
Visit the site of Luminous-Landscape; in a recent trip to Africa, the gear of the pros points very clearly that mirrorless gear is the trend.
“That’s BS.”
Precisely.
Am I the only one who wants dual pistol grips on the A99II?
a bit like this?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61HYC7ZUUyL._SL1500_.jpg
Pretty, does it match your purse?
Unfortunatelly not, that s why i did not buy this model in pink 😀
LOL 🙂
I knew Sony users were a bit off, but you guys are potential candidates for “how to catch a predator” (not a Schwarzenegger movie)
i m more into impromptu jokes 😉
We’re better at “how to catch a troll”, drew you here like flies to fly paper.
At long last, my daughters will respect me as a photographer. 😉
One of the most iconic camera from Mamiya.
https://40.media.tumblr.com/9d95647c73473323941823651cde7a9c/tumblr_nfmganNo051r7e9mko1_500.jpg
Did you forgot this one?
http://i.imgur.com/5LRpi9W.jpg
You’re one of the few who still wants a-mount to march on.
Why would A-mount be killed ? This sounds ridiculous given that it seems many people want a large body camera which the A7 series does not have…
Video capabilities: Nikon steps into 4K territory with UHD support and a flat profile, though you can only shoot 4K for 3 minutes at a time. While that should be sufficient most of the time, sometimes your timing is off and you need to run longer.
Let’s have all the A7RII overheating trolls comment on this unprofessional limitation.
http://www.cnet.com/products/nikon-d5/
Only question I have is whether the limitation is one based on the format of the cards you can use, or overheating…. if it’s a card format limitation then I could care less because that would mean I could avoid it by simply using an external recording device… but if its an overheating problem then it’s a big problem because my experience with the Sonys that overheat is once they overheat you have to shut them off and let them cool off before you can do anything with them, that down time whether on a camera that can do 3 minutes 5 minutes or even 15 minutes before a forced cool off is a problem I don’t want to deal with because the only work around is difficult and sucks time.
The three minute time limit is probably preventing overheating on the D5, but a three minute limit makes this $6500 camera all but useless for video recording. It’s not likely a firmware update will provide anything but a marginal improvement for what appears to be a hardware issue.
The most recent user reports on the A7rII are claiming the recent firmware update has all but eliminated the overheating issue. Some have demonstrated several repeated 30 minute recording cycles without a overtemp shutdown, an exemplary performance for what’s basically a still camera.
Well, I don’t seriously think people would be buying Nikon for video. They already have GH4 and A7s. Some even have cine camera from Canon and red etc. Why Nikon? Nikon doesn’t even have that many cine lens to choose from if you don’t count Samyang.
“Hard time”… this is the type of emotional writing that buried News of the World and what makes The Sun the most sold newspaper in the UK.
The D5 is a classic case study that any biz school student will recognize. It is an AMAZING implementation of a dying technology. As technology marches forward it will negate the need for a flapping mirror and eventually negate the need for a mechanical shutter. The incumbents such as Nikon and Canon rarely make the shift to the disruptive technology and simply fade away with amazing implementations of old technology. Just view the Nikon launch video of the D5, it is classic!!!
New competitors such as Sony are ridiculed for their new technology by entrenched competitors and users of the entrenched technology. That does not stop the new entrants from decimating the markets of the entrenched competitors…
The fanbois of the old technology are a hoot!!!
The DSLR is neither dead nor dying. Mirrorless only has a very smal segment of the market. DSLRs make up the vast majority of units sold and used.
It’s up to mirrorless manufacturers to prove that they can deliver the same handling and performance. So far they haven’t.
Nikon put they finger on the A7 series sore spots. Now, it’s up to Sony to respond.
My guess is Sony will do so soon, because they have been eager to listen to and acknowledge concerns of advanced users who have moved to A7 series.
DSLR will die eventually. Sony just needs to produce the right weapon and then pull the trigger.
Ok, who’s stopping them?
No one they want to make money and marketing and wont release everything at once
So, Marketing is preventing Sony from releasing gear that satisfies user demand?
That would be a first.
Marketing has the job of dressing up other people’s actions in nice words.
Nobody is stopping anyone. It takes time and money to develop something, let alone change people’s minds.
Perhaps yes, perhaps not… But why should DSLR die ? Any specific reason for it other than the relative high manufacturing costs due to the moving parts and prism ?
I am happy with the choice with DSLR, SLT, Mirrorless, etc… Why not ?
High cost, lack of features. Well, technically horse-driven carriages and film cameras still exist too.
Ok maybe die is not the right word since it implies abrupt termination. By die I don’t mean like going extinct, more falling out of favour. Maybe obsolete may be the better word. Like 8 track tape, vinyl, or cassettes. They will still exist but not the predominant form of the camera that people will prefer to use. There will still be choice, like today we can receive audio from Vinyl, CD, mp3, DVD, maybe even 8 track for those who still own them. But I guarantee that eventually the majority of those who need to capture images of high quality will be using something that is no longer considered a DSLR.
Hahahaha typical dinosaur…
In the promo Nikon shows the D5 with a 600mm f4 lens attached.
That blows the “newbie” A7RII with the 70-200mm f4 out of the water. It’s a non-starter.
But if you only take bokeh shots of your sushi, then the A7 will do just fine 😉
Uh D5 and 600mm is like a what 17k where I’m from… A7rIi with that combo is like what 5k? though the a7rii image quality will be much better… you could go with sony 500 f4 and get one of those black lens coats and be set!
That to adapt a Sony 500/4 on a A7RIi would cost as much as the Nikon setup. The Sony setup would be exceedingly clunky, and nowhere near Nikon in handling, performance or speed. If you were shooting sports and wildlife, you’d miss your shots.
All of them?
Hahahahaha, you should go back and read what Blackberry and Blackberry users were saying about the original iPhone… Same script different product. Nikanon are the walking dead…
Of course there has to be progress.
But the SLR format has been around for 50 years now. It survived all new inventions. There were pocket size cameras with razor sharp lenses and fast autofocus already 30 years ago. They were only ever a niche product, like mirrorless is today.
The reason is that a camera is a tool that a photographer uses to take pictures. The SLR is the perfect tool. Like a screwdriver or a hammer it won’t be replaced.
Sony and TP lens manufacturers really have to start pulling some rabbits out of hats, if FE mount is ever going to rival DSLR lensens.
As mirrorless cameras mature, they can only replace DSLRs by becoming like DSLRs in everything.
The existing market share is not a good argument here. Nokia also had a huge market share at some point and it disappeared in a couple of years.
That is correct !
Judging by Amazon ratings, a6000 alone has satisfied a lot of user
demand the last couple of years, even beating many (not yet all) Canon
and Nikon mass market cameras (meaning lowly Rebels and D3x00, other
Canikons don’t sell even close to them). $398 for a body able to do
11fps with OSPDAF, WYSIWYG video and stills through viewfinder and
fitting into a coat pocket with its kit lens or a couple of wide primes
(at least 16 and 20) is not a small thing.
Next to go is
mechanical shutter, and mirrorless bodies will be below $200 (well, some
Nikon 1 and Pentax Q cameras already have no mechanical shutters, and
E-PL6 and E-PM2 before that already $200, but it is just a beginning).
Next, Yangnuo (and/or its Chinese competitors) learns how to make AF
lenses for systems other than Canon, and $50-$100 AF lenses will become
commonplace.
Yeah, A6000 did well and I’m happy about that. I spend time in camera stores and sales staff seem to be pitching A6000 to first time buyers. Makes sense, unless you want to build a good native lens collection.
On the whole though, mirrorless is a small niche in the market, and there is competition from Olympus et al.
2015 was Sony’s best year for cameras so far. They are still small compared to Canikon and everyting depends on what they do next. Was it a blip or the start of something big?
As for myself, I went exclusive on Sony about a year ago. Ever since I’ve been wrestling with quirks and fighting off thoughts of selling it all and getting a D810.
Sony’s actions in 2016 will decide how that one goes.
If they continue the winning strategy (spec best and price right), they will continue to win. If they try NEX-7 shenanigans again (something like $1400 with the stupid 18-55, and no decent AF), they will lose just like all other overpricers without luxurious brand name to appeal to elitists (who buy the brand instead of a product).
I don’t consider mirror less a disruptive technology. Now if you want to talk about the L16 then you have something. That product is an example of an inter-sectional idea and is truly disruptive.
Mirror less- although innovative- is for all intensive purposes new packaging.
It is a first step, the disruptive technologies start at the intersection of the x and y axes. There will be a number of technologies tried but ultimately a camera in the 50mp range with no mirror, no shutter a screaming processor, a fast massive buffer, and iPhone like connectivity would go a long way toward disrupting the market. Yes Light’s technology would be interesting as would light field technology.
The thing on all of the camera vendors part that borders on criminal is that you cannot easily and completely control the camera from an app… Once your camera is set on a tripod you should never have to touch it.
But if you will remember Clayton’s initial premise was that the large low capacity ($10,000 per megabyte) winchester hard drives were replaced by 11″ drives that were replaced by 8″ that were replaced with 5.25″, 3.5″, 2.5″, 1.8″ and now SSDs. Rarely did the previous drive manufacturers make the transition to the new form factor and technology.
Nikanon are no different than the early hard drive manufacturers.
Same story different day, I have seen this same story play out time and again…
Well… mirrorless is the pinacle of the WYSIWYG concept.
I have spent hours using the A7RII and firmly decided to stick with Nikon D750 and just added a d810. I am not a “fanboy” of Nikon, just going with what works best for me.
I see this a lot where Sony mirrorless fans try to ridicule people that use Nikon or Canon. It never seems to be based in reality.
I continue to use Sony mirrorless for personal use, or where size is a factor, and when I don’t have critical scheduled shoots.
I would strongly encourage you to shoot what works for you. I am simply pointing out that we are witnessing, in real time, a classic disruptive technology at work. It will be a hoot to watch it play out…
Enjoy your hoot.
I love my Sony A7, A99, A900, but I do miss the lightning operation and “not give a fck” durability of my old Nikon D3 and D3X. It’s just as silly to ridicule the capabilities of the competition.
Here is a still capture from a Red video. Red’s prices as well as their competitors continue to plummet. The world is changing FAST!!!
Nikanon may have something up their respective sleeves to stay relevant, but it certainly doesn’t look like it 🙁
Don’t fool yourself.
While you can get a screen grab from a video, you cannot get all screen grabs and expect the same result as a still (like your example)
Most video is shot with a 180 degree shutter angle. There is motion blur. While this dude may not be doing much and the little movement he makes can give you an acceptably sharp image, you cannot do the same for sports, journalism or any other subject that can have enough motion to cause motion blur at 180, or even 90 or 45 degree shutter angles.
To expect a still from a goalkeeper missing a shot, or a protester throwing a stone, in focus and “time stood still” sharpness from a video grab is idiotic because you cannot have great looking video (faster shutter angles make video look jittery) and great looking stills.
Maybe you’re looking into this guy’s eyes and feeling charmed by RED marketing, talking your knickers off with some blurb…but, again, don’t fool yourself.
Here is a good example, in a controlled environment, proving you can’t have both.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5jEKDljAuM
Hahahahaha, do you think technology is static???
It isn’t, but there’s no sense boasting about technology that doesn’t exist, hasn’t proven itself yet, or is priced well out of the reach of mere mortals.
No one is boasting about technology just pointing out the fact that new technologies exist that are rapidly maturing and the price point for them is rapidly declining. Nikanon either embrace them or die.
“Most video is shot with a 180 degree shutter angle.”
But with digital, you don’t have to. It can be 360 degrees, or 0.01 degrees (which is all BS). Or even 720 “degrees” (yes, theoretically you don’t have to reset pixels with every frame).
You’ve got to give it to Nikon: putting cameras of this caliber on the market with “only” 20MP is a daring move. That can only mean they intend to impress with quality, not quantity. For their sake I hope they have.
its a sport camera, not meant for fashion photography.
nothing wrong with 20mp
still cant wait to see samples of pictures taken with 3mio ISO, have any been released yet?
You will see the noise even in a postage stamp. 🙂
In that market MP is not relevant. These appeal to Wedding, Sports, Event photographers and those for whom a tank is needed. Look at the DX, and look at the speculated DXm2 and 5Dm4. Those are the competitors. Right now Sony needs an A9, rugged A7II, with a built in vertical grip.
What Nikon said shows that they are concerned.
Why a built in vertical grip adding to the bulk when it can be an accessory ?
A D700 with battery grip is actually taller than a D3 would be one reason. Another is that a lot of these ‘flagship’ mirrorless cameras always seem to be a little too short for most people to hold comfortably. The A7 I tried wasn’t too bad, but my E-M1 definitely needed the J.B. Designs bottom plate, and I have small hands. So something with what approaches a built in grip would add a minor amount of bulk, possibly allow for a more significant battery, and add more functionality.
“rugged A7II, with a built in vertical grip.”
Neither ruggedness nor vertical grip will help A7II become even a half-decent sports camera, let alone a competitor to D5.
Much more important are:
1) C-AF with tracking
2) fps with said C-AF
3) buffer length at said fps, with fast seamless clearing (meaning, you don’t have to wait after series to review or start another series)
4) battery life in thousands of shots, with many hours of life turned on and ready to shoot
5) second card slot
and OF COURSE, sports zooms and primes (at least 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8, 300/2.8, with a matching teleconverter or two), although for Sony to make it more interesting for system switchers, I’d recommends having 22-70 or 20-70/2.8 instead of the boring commonplace 24-70 – they should use their short flange advantage.
Nothing of those Sony A7II has.
I could have written a much longer comment and included your 1-5, and went on about 4 but that was not my point. I will set that right.
The 2.8 lenses are already coming. The A7II to A9 would include a lot of other changes as would an A7m3. The point is that Sony is moving forward faster than Canon or Nikon and the have a path. The Nikon comments about mirrorless during their announcement shows they are concerned.
The A9 will be a rugged A7II with a built in handgrip which will allow for more battery life, a second card slot, have better AF, higher frame rates, higher ISO, an improved 24-30mp max sensor, and a set of new lenses that are going to be announced sooner than the A9 will.
Battery Life is not going to be solved in the near future and will remain a limiting factor. I solve that by just keeping more batteries in my kit. The size factor and the limitless lens access are the biggest strengths, along with excellent sensor tech. The move from previous models to the A7rII and A7sII for AF with Canon and Nikon lenses is a huge leap. I can only imagine where we will be in a year with the added range of Sony lenses.
Nikon D# series never have high MP count.
I was thinking quantity I mean they r fps monsters. a7rii imo has spectacular quality image wise.
They did impress me with their pricing.
For sports shooters, 20mpix is a luxury and might even seem excessive (at least on an APS-C camera, which already crops and 1.5 stops behind in high ISO). I mean, with f/2.8, in a typical gym light, ISO12800 is not even enough to freeze motion (you’ll get 1/200-1/600s depending on gym), and on APS-C you already better scale it down to 5 mpix or so to be clean (or turn noise filter massively up, which does effectively the same thing to resolution).
I guess being above 20mpix is a marketing necessity, even smartphones are there.
I agree with Nikon, the pros for whom such a body will appeal to, do need reliable AF.
“Who in tarnation is going to want one of those new fangled Horseless Carriages. A horse is far more reliable and the quality of our Buggies is unsurpassed….”
I don’t understand why people are soooo waiting for a9. Sony put all her effort on a7 series, i don’t think sony has something banging to make a9. And there are extremely few lens to attract pros. Am i the only one who thinks a5 will come out before a9? After seeing fe28f2, I’m pretty sure that sony WILL make a5 soon.
A99 II is almost a sure thing. A9 on the other hand is probably in a very early stage. I think there is definitely room above the A7 but not until the technology (autofocus, continuous drive, ergonimics, weather resistance) are beyond DSLRs. So I think we’ll say an A9 in a year or two when the technology surpasses DSLRs in every way. And the A-mount will slowly go away. Or perhaps the A9 will have an a-mount. who knows?
I just realized i said nothing in this whole comment.
they need a bigger camera so laymen would immediately recognize them as professional photographers; the a7 series is too small
That’s what A-mount is for.
IMO the A7 series look awesome with a cage.
The simple reason is that A7 series with it’s lenses don’t perform for sports, wildlife or journalism.
This is preventing pros and enthusiasts from leaving their DSLRs. It’s also irritating to some of those who made the jump.
Sony is well aware of this as we see in their statements.
“This is preventing pros and enthusiasts”
It is preventing some pros and enthusiasts and I’d say that sports, wildlife and journalism are a minority.
Pros who shoot sport, wildlife and journalism NEED fast, reliable and agile systems. Everyone else PREFERS them.
Let’s face it, the only reason A7 became a hit was the sensor. If you take that away, you are left with a long list of problems.
Sony is addressing these problems in steps. Some are teething problems, others will take more to overcome. Like a variety of lenses that match those of DSLR systems.
“Everyone else PREFERS them.”?? All those people who bought mirrorless cameras aren’t part of “everyone”?
Of course, there are problems. However, it is pretty interesting to see the evolution of the pro nonsense. First, it was all about limited systems with smaller sensors, then about OVF, then about AF. Today, it is only about some aspects of AF and… well, that’s pretty much it. It is indeed an issue for the types of photography you mentioned, but, again, these are just a minority. So, the reason why DSLRs still sell better is brand recognition and limited systems (there’s only one full frame system, which appeared just 2 years ago), rather than some issues with AF.
There is a large number of factors that influence sales.
There are many prosumers today, who research cameras before buying. They pick up on any flaws or limitations. As a consequence even entry level cameras have more pro functions today.
I do trust Sony’s new ambition to become a major player in the stills market. Their challenge is to deliver full DSLR functionality in a much smaller package.
At least we know they will give it their best shot.
“There is a large number of factors that influence sales.”
That was precisely my point 🙂 Anyway, I am letting it go here, as a discussion about the factors and their individual contributions will be quite interesting, but also very long.
Just curious, does the AF illumination light of external sony flashes work on A7 bodies?
I’d say sports is required by the absolute majority of DSLR customers in the US. Otherwise, P&S or even cellphones suffice. Same 20mpix, and in good light, OR for static subjects, in JPEG (as most customers use) you will not see a difference, let alone scaled down to screen size. With automatic HDR and panorama, they might be even better.
Pros is a tiny minority of camera and DSLR users, let alone those “pros” who don’t need to work with moving subjects and catch the best fleeting moments. Who are these “PROs”, those “PROs” who shoot passport photos in Costco?
The large majority of DSLRs used are not D4s, but Rebels. The large majority of DSLR users, pros and enthusiasts, will quite probably be in fashion, studio, landscape, travel and family photos (none of them requiring more than what pretty much any modern camera delivers in terms of AF).
“The large majority of DSLRs used are not D4s, but Rebels.”
Absolutely. And every last of them has PDAF and can AF-C without hunting (or, for simplicity, can AF-C, because hunting in AF-C kills AF-C).
“The large majority of DSLR users, pros and enthusiasts, will quite probably be in fashion, studio, landscape,”
Tiny, tiny minority. Maybe 1/1000 or 1/10000 of all cameras sold are used in a studio, and they might be film or MF or whatever for all I care. Just noise in the market.
” travel and family photos (none of them requiring more than what pretty much any modern camera delivers in terms of AF).”
You know, family, as in children, like to move. Even indoors. And if subject is static, a DSLR or any other decent camera is simply not required, even a cellphone will suffice (and actually be better, able to instantly share the pics). The only point of those large sensors is higher ISO performance, needed only for moving subjects in low light to keep the subjects sharp. Everything else is just as good with small sensors with HDR+ etc, as tens of millions of people have discovered.
So you don’t have proper AF-C – you just eliminated the only reasonable cause for that big expensive sensor with big expensive shutter (and everything else around it just doubling what your phone already has but POORLY, with smaller, lower-res screen, with outdated CPU etc) to be purchased by a reasonable customer.
“Tiny, tiny minority. Maybe 1/1000 or 1/10000 of all cameras sold are used in a studio”. Wildlife is probably a similarly sized minority. And what happened to landscape and travel, arguably the most popular types of photography?
“And if subject is static, a DSLR or any other decent camera is simply not required” Based on my anecdotal experience, the average Joe buys a bigger sensor for the “mage quality, not for some tracking abilities. That is precisely what I am saying all along – most of the DSLRs are not bought by rational decisions made by knowledgable people.
Why do so many fools think it is fine to descriminate against people if they are a minority.
What lenses are necessary for journalism ?
Nothing fancy, just like 24-70/2.8 and 70-200/2.8. Maybe an 85/1.4 for portraits. Can’t get that for FE though 😉
Funny that I saw one going to a war zone delivered the job… It should be impossible accordingly to you.
Anything can happen once.
If you look at the gear war photographers normally carry, I’m sure they would welcome a smaller and lighter setup. If it delivered the same performance, handling and reliability as the traditional gear. So far, mirrorless doesn’t.
I know some stories that were shot on a NEX-7 when it came out. It doesn’t mean everyone is using it.
Porque no los dós?
I think they are ready to make a GX and GM (from panasonic) equivalent cameras for FE-mount.
Ideally the A9 would wear the “S” and “R” badge, A7III would be the A7rII continuation, and a A5 would be basically the updated A7.
One thing is sure now, Nikon does not continue the unreasonable MP war, but is aiming at speed and high ISO performance, in which Sony better wake up !!! where is a equivalent Sony camera !!! and no the A77 does not match those new toys anymore, Sony loses the APS’C war to Nikon for wild live and high ISO DSRL camera’s for the pro’s !!! wake Sony, or did you really abandon the A mount ?????
They raised the MP from 16 to 20mp… of course they are following the trend, even Fuji and m43 are going to +20MP.
Guess who still makes a low MP count camera? Yeah…
Where did that stream of consciousness come from?
D300s = 12mp
D500 = 20mp
And if there would have been a D400 it would have had 16mp
Wow. I think we need to chill a second. The D500 isn’t even released yet and you’re freaking out at Sony that their now mid-life A77II doesn’t match the D500 specs? Right now, the A77II is the best APS-C DLSR for sports. In March, maybe not. But give Sony a chance to respond after the competition announces a new product. From the sounds of it, you expect them to continuously be 1 generation ahead of the competition.
Actually, Nikon is slowly advancing both the ability of their sensor along with pixel count. Basically, we’ve gone from 12 to 16 to 20mp, and each step has ALSO been accompanied with a significant upward step in noise handling.
I wonder if it will be compatible with the atomos shogun/assassin. If it is, this may be a good camera for hybrid shooters. Otherwise, its a sports / wedding camera and the 4k video is totally irrelevant
It was clearly built to be used with external recorder.
The d500 will virtually wipe out a7sii sales
Almost double the resolution.
Almost double the iso.
Almost half the price.
“The d500 will virtually wipe out a7sii sales
Almost double the iso.”
Huh? a7sII has AT LEAST 1 stop of advantage in ISO over d500, probably more like 1.5.
A7rii 25,600 native/ 102,000 extended
D500 51,200 native / 1,640,000 extended
You are very, very mistaken.
ISO numbers and ISO performance is a whole different story.
APS-C is always about a stop behind FF.
FF d5 3,260,000 iso
You specifically mentioned D500 in your comment.
D5 is more than double the price of A7SII.
We’ll have to wait and see about the ISO performance on that bad boy.
I suspect completely unusable at that level…
You started off talking about A7Sii vs. D500. Then ended with a A7Rii vs. D5 comparison. Try to get it straight.
The numbers allowed by the manufacturer to be set have NOTHING to do with real noise in the picture. In fact, 25600 on A7rII will look (at the same printing/viewing size) like ISO 8000 (or so) from D500. And read more carefully, the original was about A7sII, not A7rII.
A7sii 102,400 native. ….409,600 extended.
The a7sii is as I said half the iso of the d500, and not even comparble to the d5
A7RII? A7SII surely.
In that case, it’s not double the ISO at all.
I posted mitakenly poste a7rii specs but intended to post a7sii specs.
You are mad.
A7sII ISO
100-102400 (expands to 50-409600)
.
And it has nothing to do with quality at those ISO, how hard it is to understand. I can make you ISO 123 million, and noise will be such that the only useful resolution will be 1 pixel by 1 pixel.
Its not me…my cell phone keeps changing it
I keep typing a7sii and it keeps changing to a7rii.
It knows something about your inner desires. 😉
It only THINKS it knows.
It even looked up the wrong set of specs for me…
So are you talking about the A7S II or A7R II?
My cellphone keeps changing it.
A7sii…!!!
“Almost double the iso.”
So you think that will equate to being a stop better in the real world, do you?
If so, then Nikon have sensor technology that is effectively two stops better than previous sensors. That’s quite a jump…
Not for 4k folks though.
im glad 20MP is more than enough. I’m Nikon user but want to have a smaller camera with SLR features. I returned 7rII because it is not good enough. I’m glad I did as the priced dropped 600 euros.
The price of the a7r mk2 has dropped by 600 Euros ?! In which shop ?
Yeah, people keep talking about how Sony drop the price faster, I’m still waiting for any price drop to buy a A7II…
many shops. purnima.fr example use geizhals.de kelkoo.com actually any dealer will give you massive discount.
Who said it was more than enough? LOL
That was people said when they where at 16mp and people believed, more like “It’s just what we can do for now”.
Did you forgot that they where first to make a 36mp camera? Fanboys have a pretty strong selective memory…
If a7sII had OSPDAF and at least 9 fps shutter, and Sony sold f/2.8 zooms, it would be useful for sports. Maybe not D5, but at least useful. So far with 5fps, all the A7 are no better than Rebels for that (and A7s worse).
At least they know how, as we see with A6000 and A77II it’s just a matter of getting those pieces together.
Maybe they should make a conceptual working prototype, like Canon was showcasing, with the size of a shoebox with everything they have in house, like global shutter, stacked sensor 16bit and High framerate Beyond 900fps with 100% PDAF coverage with cross type points. At least it would shutt the whiners.