As we all know reviewers are all different and it’s quite normal to see how everyone sees a camera differently. For some the A7rII focus is excellent (read Dpreview) and for some it is not. For some the image quality is astonishing (and do not care about 12 or 14 bit RAW) and for some not because they know that in 0,1% of the pictures the lossless RAW compression shows posterization artifacts 🙂
We read a lot of good things about the A7rII but it’s now time to share a review from Ming Thein who dislikes many things on the camera…but at the end bought it anyway 🙂 Here are just some of the negative A7rII points he mentioned in his review:
1) I have used all of the A7 series cameras except the A7S, and previously reviewed the A7R and A7II in detail. Each of these cameras suffered from significant shortcomings, and the A7RII is no different – though perhaps it has the fewest so far.
2) The menu system is typical Sony. It is passable to those familiar, and completely unintuitive to those who aren’t.
3) Operationally, this does not feel like a fast camera. Every action seems slightly delayed, as though damped in oil. Power on is slow. Reviewing images and zooming in is laggy
4) AF with normal E-mount lenses is not exactly speedy – just the right side of acceptable most of the time, but in even slightly backlit situations, be prepared to wait – and get a lot of false positives.
5) No matter how many times I profile the camera or what I do with the primary curves or HSL defaults in ACR, there’s some muddiness and color indistinction going on in the shadows if you want to extract the most dynamic range from it; on the other hand, if you want clean shadows, you’re going to be faced with fairly early clipping.
6) IBIS unfortunately also complicates the matter of sensor cleaning greatly – though there’s a function which basically shakes the thing using brute force, I’ve already got stubborn dust spots on mine that cannot be dislodged with blower or shaker.
Conclusion:
Sadly, the A7RII is not a camera that gives me any pleasure to shoot at the moment, and it bothers me that I cannot put my finger on exactly why. Logically, it ticks all the boxes. Yet it does not inspire goad you on, like the Leica Q, nor does it feel solidly dependable and razor sharp like the D810. It may well be unfamiliarity or a bad choice of custom key configuration on my part, but I suspect that isn’t entirely it. It just feels like a consumer electronic device in operation, something designed for anoraks by anoraks, not a camera.
As usual please don’t be a Sony fanboy. If you feel Ming Thein is NOT right on some points simply argument with reasonable logic. To be 100% fair Ming also listed some positives about the camera on his full review and at the end bought the camera for his personal use.
Personal view: I do understand some of Ming Thein complains. And I am happy when reviewers highlight the limits of the camera and do hope Sony will take note of it. That said I always see the cameras as a whole package and for me the positives by far outweight the negatives. I have the camera since one week and in my real life use I found it excellent! If you want to see an A7rII review that really reflects my view of the A7rII watch the video review from Luminous Landscape.
250 Responses
Let me get something:
Is the shadow quality of the A7R2 is the same as he first A7R? if that the case, Its perfect.
Is it worse?
The A7RII is just not for him, it’s as easy as that. I can totally understand all his negative points. Mirrorless/Sony can feel a bit slow compared to normal DSLRS like the 810 and especially the Leica Q. That’s just how it is. There’s no denying. The AF will, for now, always be slower than regular DSLRS with a mirror. Sure the A7RII is best of the best regarding mirrorless, but it still lacks behind if you compare it to camera’s with a mirror. Yes, the sensor gets dirty so easily! That’s the case with my A7II too, and I have to say, it’s annoying.
The thing with the shadows I don’t understand. As far as I know the Sony Dynamic range works amazing in recovering shadow detail.
Now, all of these things are very small compared to the positive aspects of the A7RII. It’s simply a beast. I wouldn’t choose it as a primary camera for sports, but I guess most people in the industry know mirrorless is not good for sports. As for landscapes it’s simply amazing. Us landscape photographers dont really care if a camera not focuses in 0.00001 ms or if it boots in 1 second instead of 0.5. We take our time for shots anyway. Ming is not like that. And for people who are like Ming, the A7RII is not a match.
There’s a camera for everyone, and not every camera is for everyone 🙂
He is wrong in some aspects. For example charging via USB while shooting IS possible (but was not possible with its predecessors).
I like the A7 series and I gotta say, Sony needs to improve on the “emotional” side of things, technically their cameras are perfect or close to perfect but lacks on the emotional side of things, most like what MT and Lloyd Chambers said.
Sony’s fighting a battle there. On the one hand, they had all these legacy Minolta lenses with great soul but lots of imperfections. So they address that with the more clinical Zeiss lenses, but then the criticism swings the other way: the lenses have no soul. The balance is really hard to find. For me, I switch back to my old Minoltas when I want more feeling from the photos, but recognize that they are very condition-specific.
It seems you completely missed the fact that despite all of this: I STILL BOUGHT THE CAMERA.
Hi! I updated my post and added that info. Hope it’s fine now 🙂
P.S.: Thanks for highlighting some of the Sony issues. Hop Sony Tokyo is writing down yout notes 🙂
I’ve tried to contact them repeatedly after each review, but nobody seems to be listening. It’s a shame because they’re so close, yet so far. I suppose there is no incentive since we’re all buying them anyway…
From what I heard they are trying to improve this. Diglloyd got contacted. I hope they will do the same with you after reading that article on SAR.
We can only hope. It would be a win-win for everybody. I do understand they had a meeting with Lloyd after the original A7/7R review but completely ignored everything he said; he was extremely angry about it. So, we shall see.
I’d still like to figure out how everybody is charging/shooting at the same time though. My camera still attempts to connect to the power bank in mass storage mode.
“I’d still like to figure out how everybody is charging/shooting at the same time though.”
I have no first hand knowledge but I read somewhere that it depends on the mA output of the powerbank. Only above a certain threshold the camera accepts is as battery substitute.
My RX100M2 runs off an Anker while my brothers A7M2 will not. Hope this helps.
That makes sense. I’m going to get hold of another power bank to see if it changes things.
Please do share with us the how if u managed to get it run. Thanks!
They’re listening for sure even if it doesn’t seem like it at times.Shortly after launch, Sony invited me over to give feedback on the A7/R (and preview the A7S). Most of it led to the changes seen in the A7II bodies, and I’m sure most of the rest will be reflected in the mkIIIs. As for them not listening to Lloyd, I just wish his anger didn’t so clearly come out in his review.
Personally I’m just glad we’ve got guys like Sony giving us proper alternatives. I used Nikons for years (ending with the D800) and tried many Canons. Their deficiencies with inaccurate AF and inability to easily MF in the viewfinder were just killing me. The A7/A7R combo suit me perfectly and I still come back from a 1000+ image shoot without changing a battery on either. I do miss Nikon’s CLS on the rare occasion I do off-camera TTL flash. Hopefully one day Canon and Sony will have a comparable flash system. Different needs for different folk.
I don’t have an A7RII yet, but for your charging problem it sounds like the power bank has a live data wire – maybe try with another or use a purely charging USB cable instead of a data+charging one.
Well, that’s encouraging, at least. It begs the question why they didn’t just put all of the changes in instead of milking their loyal customers for another half revision…I can’t blame Lloyd for being angry. I would be too if they bothered to call a meeting then ignore me…
I’ll try a different lead on that power bank. Somebody suggested the voltage/current may be too low to charge also – that might well be part of the problem. But it still seems ridiculous that I have to buy a third party battery and use rubber bands to attach it to get decent life out of the camera.
Btw, various settings have a great effect on battery life. Gary Friedman wrote an amazing book on those cameras, I’d recommend it for all the settings.
All my batteries are too old to set a benchmark right now but even now, I get more than 200 shots per charge on my A7. As far as my experience with Sony mirrorless goes (4+ years) the biggest battery killer is the AF. I used to get around 2000 shots on Nex 5 using legacy glass. I’d suggest turning off Pre-AF if it’s on.
I’m running as lean as possible with pre AF off, airplane mode on, lowest brightness, aggressive power saving mode and still don’t see >170 shots/charge. 250-300 on the A7R/A7 was no problem. I think the reality is the IBIS system and processors consumer a lot of juice; there’s a lot of mass to move in there.
Really interesting. Have you tried using it for a while with IBIS turned off? That’d be a really experiment 🙂
Actually, yes – on a tripod. That was the 170 shot battery. A bit better, but not much…
Do you switch the camera off between shots or is the camera on all day? I’m guessing the constant liveview displayed on the rear LCD will drain the battery.
I get about 300 shots out of my A7II, which should have about the same power consumption. <170 is really low, unless you leave your camera on for long stretches without actually taking photos.
The other day I shot 230 images with my RII on a single battery, IBIS on, lots of power saving by shutting off between shots (I never let it just sleep), plane mode, no image review, framed in the EVF and reviewed each shot on the LCD after with the subjects and the battery is still at 68%. Its rare that I can’t get 300 shots per battery and I usually get much more.
There will be more revisions too. Why is this a A7r Mark II when it has almost no similarities with the 7r. Such a jump could have been a A8 or even just another A7x or something.
They are saving number places for some bigger changes which I’m sure will happen within a year
So what exactly did Lloyd ask for? Again, I think the chances that any one individual can influence product design are pretty remote. If he was genuinely angry, then that’s starting to verge on being pretty narcissistic.
“I suppose there is no incentive since we’re all buying them anyway…”
That is very well said.
Sony have actually taken quite a lot of complaints on board and made improvements. The differences between Mk1 and II should make that evident to anybody.
I think it is probably unrealistic to expect that your own personal suggestions will be taken on-board unless they represent a majority.
At least the time difference between mark 1 and mark 2 cameras are not so long like Canon… Wait 6-12 months and your new improved version of Sony camera will be here.
But then they get criticised that they bring a new one out too quickly! Insane…
Lol. Although they have addressed many user requests, I guess give them more time. At least they are heading in the right direction. Hmmm let me rephrase that: at least they are doing something unless Canon and Nikon.
I think you also bought Fuji X-T1. if yes, do you still have it?
1. Yep, A7rii is definitely the best yet but still a few quirks there.
2. Can’t argue there, they do seem to be getting a better though.
3. I’ve found most things responsive except, reviewing / zooming images. Please Sony, look at that!
4. I’ve found no problems with the 16-35, 55 & 90 macro.
5. Created my own profiles in Capture One Pro using Passport ColourChecker and got it bang on now. Took a hour to work but worth it. Just need to sort one out for studio lights now.
6. No Problems yet.
+
7. Sony, please let me assign any function to the FN buttons and not just the ones you think we need.
8. SONY, Full fat Raws please, non of this compressed low fat stuff!
Just returned to Sony after a spell away. 2nd system is a Fuji X-T1 50-140 and a couple of primes. The Sony doesn’t have the same soul as the Fuji but I don’t find it a problem. They are just different and both systems have their pros and cons. I wish I could get the Fuji 50-140 working on the Sony though 🙂
So far, very happy with the image quality and while the lens quality doesn’t always match Fuji, there are a couple of real gems!
Passport Colour Checker with Capture one? How?
Just take a picture of the color checker, crop in on the swatches, use auto adjustments, then save as a user preset.
Yeah. Make the adjustments and then save as ICC profile
I have a few pics with key colours in them as well as the items photographed at 12 midday. I then apply the new profile and make tweaks to it until it accurately represent the item. They then act as a “Realistic” base that is set as the camera default. I can then add other style colour tweaks etc later but I will be making them to an accurate base. Repeat the process for studio lights and mixed studio lights etc
Great, I’ll try.
The C1 profiles are good at times but I found the greens a little too emerald for Sony,light purples looked like sky blue and reds to light which resulted in blown reds. I tend to preview images with the C1 profiles to see how they look as they do have nice contrast.
Good tips. Could you also try using the Phase One IQ 250 (Sensor also made by Sony) profile for the Sony files? I tried this for my D800 files and it improved the color rendering noticably.
I’ve just tried Phase One IQ 250 on a A7rii file and it does provide neutral tones and colours. I haven’t tested it against a Passport ColourChecker though.
Thanks, I read that system but I have not tried.Does it seem as reliable as that generated for adobe aps?
I don’t undertand why you complain Sony because Adobe RAW editor doesn’t function as you expect??? SONY’s standard Raw editor is Capture One, isn’t it?
I have read your review of 5ds/d810 and liked that review a lot.
In this review I also find that your points about this camera are correct though written in a manner that is sure to upset Sony fans.
The menu, and the many combinations of settings are mind boggling.
Some sort of cheat sheet would be helpfull.
It is a complicated camera to figure out as you say, and that is the source of many of the bad reviews…if you cant figure out how to get the best results, you will not get the best results.
Aithough I have an overall higher opinion of the camera than you, your points are all valid points.
Good review.
“As usual please don’t be a Sony fanboy. If you feel Ming Thein is NOT right on some points simply argument with reasonable logic.”
@SAR_Admin:disqus
Well said. I like that.
Yes, the A7rII is not the camera to end all cameras. My prediction: Sony will deliver the A99 mkII, a “real” rugged SLR-like solid camera with most of the new tech if not all, probably disappointing some. They might even do another A77 but these would probably be the last A-mounts. Then Sony will deliver an amazing video-oriented A7s with some video-oriented ergonomics and features, a regular much improved A7 (with touch screen?) and then maybe release the much anticipated A9, a more SLR-like e-mount that will effectively supersede the A99. Barring surprises, this might take a while.
They’ve said about six months ago- SLT’s allow a lot more room to stuff technology into. I can’t remember the interview- but it was a designer talking about FE and A mount. All they need to do is drop the same tech in an A99, but with SLT AF, dual card slots- no lossy. Plenty of room to pack all the processing power one could possibly want.
The only place they could put something extra in an A-mount camera they couldn’t in E-mount is the mirror box, in the event that A-mount goes mirrorless.
Otherwise there is nothing to stop Sony doing a DSLR-sized E-mount A9 with all the stuff you want. Long-term that is pretty much guaranteed, and highly possible in short-medium term (especially if those extra lenses rumoured by the end of the year are f2.8 zooms).
That’ll be good for sports togs and A7 line for landscape.
something designed for anoraks by anoraks
is this a typical expression?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorak_%28slang%29
it also was completely new to me
fromwiki:
(Britain, slang) A geek or nerd, possibly originally either a train spotter or a fan of off-shore pirate radio.
i was afraid the inuit in me should feel offended.. 🙂
My experience with speed of this camera is so much better than Ming’s. Also I’ve seen a6000 and A7r2 perform much faster for image preview than most Nikon cameras. I’m puzzled by many of his conclusions, and generally don’t believe to be true as they are highly subjective.
>something designed for anoraks by anoraks
Seems like an accurate description for the A7 series. Maybe an A9 will finally be a people-oriented FE camera, since the A99II takes forever to materialize.
So your argument is as mature as his. Simply idiotic 😉
I think Ming’s points are all valid reviewing it from his type of usage. To some I agree based on my own experiences with it.
What I don’t like with his review and as well with many of the reviewers is the fact that it seems to be hard to remain objectively until the very end of their individual review.
Even if a review reflects a personal opinion there shall be no reason to offend people.
Neither are Sony designers and tech experts anoraks, nor am I. And I am using the A7RII because it is besides its flaws the best CAMERA for my usage, and not just an electronic device I am playing with.
The inflammatory language and subjective opinions certainly don’t help… Surely anyone who isn’t shooting film and manually metering is using a consumer electronic device?
With the small exception that some reviewers make more sense than others. I can certainly understand Thein, yet have serious trouble with Lloyd.
Who is Ming Thein? I don’t have the camera so I can’t comment on it. Still, the only time I see Ming Thein mentioned is when Andrea mentions him in this site. I suppose he is another guy with an other blog. Is he a photographer? Is he a pixel peeper? A tech expert? A guy who likes to write? Whoever it is, opinions are something that can be used to make informed judgements.
Here he is, looking at some photos
http://www.deathbymovies.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/flash-gordon-004.jpg
Funny !
you might check the link to his website and then click ‘about’ -> i guess that will answer all your questions
Have to agree at some extent and to wait a99II, still using translucent mirror
For a guy who shoots some pretty boring snapshots and peddles his overpriced “ultraprints” of said boring subjects, he sure has a lot of “expert wisdom” to share.
Not to mention that he will not publish any comments that are even slightly critical on his blog.
Sandeep Murali, what an ungracious and downright rude comment for somebody of even your stature in the photographic community. And if you don’t think I’m getting enough abusive criticism, why not come over and contribute your expertise? 🙂
I shoot for personal pleasure and I don’t care about my “Stature in the photographic community”. Also, I value my time far too much to waste it on criticizing you.
“Also, I value my time far too much to waste it on criticizing you.”
Apparently not.
Apparently, yes.
I commented on SAR, a site that I frequent. Not on Mr. Thein’s blog (Where he invited me to comment, and for what I have no time for) The comment was supposed to be a response to this article. No one invited Mr. Thein to reply to me.
Read better and lick your Spittle elsewhere, troll.
Ah, I see. You have the time to criticise him on here but not on there. It all makes perfect sense now.
Don’t be goaded into a spitting contest. This is an age-old conflict of two asian nations, ie. Singapore and Malaysia.
well, it looks like you’re the one trolling
Expecting nothing but glowing praise for your work (which is very good and sometimes excellent) is unrealistic.This exchange sounds personal and perhaps there is some less than friendly history between the two of you. Chasing your critics around the web to respond to every negative comment is a waste of time, this should be reserved for your personal or professional blog. And bringing your sycophants along for moral support is also in bad taste.
I have nothing personal against this person nor have I ever met him/ interacted with him; online or otherwise. I have been to his website a few times and have seen nothing but boring snapshots and posts about “limited editions” of those images being sold at exorbitant prices. I have also heard from others that if they post anything even remotely negative, he does not publish those comments. A cursory look at his posts shows only pats-on-the-back comments, which confirms these (Even Greg Heissler or HCB have their critics, so it is unrealistic that every person who has read his site are 100% in agreement with his opinions).
This forms the basis of my opinion. I posted it here because SAR posted this silly “review”. I wasn’t even replying to him and certainly did not ask him to respond to me.
Why did he call you Sandeep Murali?
because that’s his name, he is also on LuLa forums and sometimes quite hostile
The truth is always hostile to those with panties too twisted to handle it.
I guess your response says it all, you seem to be a little arrogant prat, aren’t you?
I have tried to reply on Ming’s blog, but could not for some reason!
I also noticed all the comments posted in his blog are pats-on-the-back comments which confirms why my post was NOT there…
oh, synn is here…
To each his own–I’m thankful for this article posting the review because it introduced his blog to me (which I like very much). As your mother likely told you, unless you have something nice to say…..
Not using Sony before buying an A7 camera, I’ve found the menu very intuitive.
You have plenty of custom buttons and a custom quick menu – I never understood this menu-bashing cause I never need the menu during shooting …
I think the most important thing that needs sony A7r series is rigidity. It should be rocket solid like leica or canon or nikon. If they aim for the pros, body must be able to resist high and low temperatures, shock, humidity etc, well be at the same level as Nikon D810 or Canon 5DIII in therms of protection. There aresome complaints about buttons that stops working after 2 months. And that tilting screen! Why? I have a pain just looking on it. I looks like in 3 months of use it will fell off. So the key strategy to surpass Nikon and Canon is to build a very sturdy body, dust, moisture, splash, shock resistant. Forget the tilt screen, make it fixed but touchscreen. Sacrifice convinience of rotating screen but add to solidity of the overal body. Stop making a new camera every god damn year. Take time, reserch, test cameras before releasing. Nikon releases a new pro body every 4 years, because it takes that time! Not 1 year as sony. Get feedback from pro photographers. Invest in firmware updates and professional service, but calm down with releases. It makes new cameras obsolete in 1 year. Like i pay 3200 euro for A7rII now, and in 1 year or so it will dump in price for 1,5 grands. It’s ridiculous. New button layout, new menu. And of course 14 bit raw. But yes, me too i still bought it.
The A7s is precisely the same price now as when it was released over a year ago, in Sweden. I can hope it will drop somewhat if/when a ver 2 is released.
I can agree with the pro service part perhaps but not the tilt screen..going back to a fixed screen now would just be too horrible.
“And that tilting screen! Why? I have a pain just looking on it. I looks like in 3 months of use it will fell off.”
> I thought that nonsense died long ago, after years and years of tilting screens not failing and Olympus making weather-selaed cameras with them.
“Nikon releases a new pro body every 4 years, because it takes that time! Not 1 year as sony.”
> So, you consider all a7 cameras to be pro? If we are talking just FF, than Nikon is releasing plenty, easily on par with Sony.
The price of sony a7s is pretty much the same after one year. Touchscreen is not a “pro” thing, and articulate screen is awesome.nikon realeases a new body 4 years after another same body and they milk theor customers, not exactly the way to go. If sony ia pushing the limits in inovation with their cameras they should not drfinetely listen to conservative aproach like yours. Want a canikon camera then youre in the wrong place.
The new EM10II allows you to slide your finger along the back screen while looking through the viewfinder. This changes the focusing point instantly. Now I’m not sure what you mean by pro- but touchscreens certainly have advantages as far as speed and accuracy is concerned. I nail more shots with that feature than I’ve ever done before. I thought it was a gimmick till I gave it a thorough try. Don’t need it, but it sure is nice to have.
Have you ever seen a broken tilting screen in life?
On my NEX-5N it survived me trying to kill camera for 3 years. It fell many times and plastics has cracks but LCD is okay.
I couldn’t agree more. A lot of people complains about the supposed fragility of the rear tilt screens but I’ve never seen a broken tilt screen in my life ^^…
Well, I have to disagree. I’m using digital Reflex or Hybrid camera from 2004 and the only one where the screen had problems were… Sony Nex 7 and then A7R.
On both, screen were not broken, but with stains internaly that made them hard to read (and awful) after a few month. On A7R, it was replaced under warranty. But how long will it last now ? On my previous and current main (reflex) camera, I’ve done 100.000+ frames without any issues.
Raoul
Referring to one’s self as a “pro photographer” doesn’t add much credibility to an opinion based on ignorance. Vague anecdotes and glowing platitudes make an empty argument that proves nothing. It’s quite obvious you have absolutely no first hand experience with the products you’re attempting to disqualify for professional work.
when you make arguments you shouldn’t exaggerate, nobody will take you serious.
i have a A7s and I love that thing, in the past 7 months i took it around the world (along a 5DM3), I shot in ice and snow on top of the Swiss alps, Stockholm in the rain, in Florida humidity, and two weeks ago I was in Dubai in extreme heat 46 degrees and in a sandstorm (we ice-packed the film cameras), but the little A7s — no problem. I never pamper my equipment, I regard scratches and dings as things that come with a job and I dropped it a dozen times. A7s has never failed me. Don’t confuse weight for sturdiness. The A7s is sturdy enough. The tilt screen performs fantastic and I love it, reminds me of shooting with my old Rollei, unfortunately it seems you never held a Rollei in your life otherwise you would appreciate a tilting screen, which by the way has NEVER broken off and I have a couple other cams with them. And, the price of my A7s is pretty much what it was a year ago. And, one more thing, contrary to what you write, A7x don’t have a rotating screen, which gives me a sneaky feeling that you actually don’t own one, even if you write that too…
The tilt screen won’t fall off. My NEX-7’s body cracked along the top beside the play button after 3 years but the screen’s still fine. I’m wholely thankful that Sony didn’t opt for that god forsaken swivel screen many DSLRs use. It makes tilting almost useless during waist level framing during street(too slow to pull out and twist and when it faces you it’s too far off the axis of the camera for intuitive framing, besides, if your subject sees your screen sticking out from beside the camera…), seems that it’s most useful during video, and video only.
besides, if you subject sees you aiming lens on them?
Often, it doesn’t matter, many don’t realize that you’re “aiming”for them if you don’t have your camera at eye level, it’s one of the advantages of the flip screen existent only due to classical type viewfinders.
———-
However, if you show to them right in their face that your screen tilts with that stupid swivel design…?
I come from a Canon 5DMK3 background, and that’s the camera I compare it to. I also primarily shoot landscapes and my family (no sport, and not really any event stuff)
I adore the A7R2…. The menu system is not that bad, and unlike the 5D I can add all (well most) of my main menu options to the function menu. Which is super quick and as super useful.
Focus is not as good, but face detection makes up for any shortcomings.
Speed of previews is noticeably slower, but not so slow that I feel its folding me back at all.
Image quality is noticeably better than the 5d. Its like night and day.
I get that the cameras not for everyone, but I wonder if some of the negative comments cameras get are not down to the camera as such, but down to things like change of workflow.
Anyway, if Im an anorak im okay with that.
You are not the only 5DIII user I have heard who is prepared to give an honest opinion, rather than put it on a pedestal.
Like so many other cameras, it is fantastic, but it has its shortcomings, as does the A7RII. It’s good to hear a reasonable summary.
I’ve been looking at these cameras for some time. The one thing that stood out from his review was the slowness.
I made a promise to myself that never again will I accept slow or hesitant operation or autofocus. I’d rather focus manually and be done with it.
I’ve read so many reviews over the years making excuses for otherwise very good cameras and their slow speeds. I’ve tried cameras that manufacturers have touted as the fastest-focusing cameras ever. I’ve read reviews claiming this or that model is “fast enough,” as though that were possible.
Fast operation and focus was nailed in cameras 20 years ago. Don’t understand why we’re still fighting this.
I think maybe I’ll wait another gen or two before looking again at these Sonys, because I just can’t compromise on responsiveness anymore.
BTW, don’t understand the anorak reference. Maybe it’s a regionalism. I think of an anorak as a pullover parka.
Maybe you just try one in a shop …
I don’t think the focus is slow at all, Sony’s advertising it as fast, most reviewers say it’s fast…it’ll be fast enough for me in any case. As for the live view lag, if it’s noticably faster than the live view on a7R, then I won’t think of it as a shortcoming.
Anyhow this is the camera I have to have because of the combination of high DR, AAless high res, and totally silent electronic shutter. It’s THE camera for me. Would be perfect if burst were doubled but…I’ve waited too long and can’t be that greedy.
I can’t disagree with much of what Ming said. I too own the A7RII (and had the A7S before it.. and have the RX100 Mark IV, and the PXW-FS7), and much of it is spot on. Sony does have this odd tendency to spout off about listening to the “VOC” (Voice of Customer), and do… from a very small few. They are an engineering-first kind of company where many decisions in UI and general performance are decided by engineers, and not actual people using the equipment in the field. Take the PXW-FS7 for example. This camera was literally born from the “VOC” and is generally outstanding, though released initially half-baked firmware wise.
Now they are concentrating on the next camera and have stopped listening to or responding to comments in their own forum as of April. Not that the FS7 is going away (The FS100 still is sold, for example), but aside from one last FW they already promised, Sony has moved on.
That said, the A7RII a superb camera (especially for handheld 4K video; the overheating issue has been overblown). And the stills, while at times not technically “perfect”, are much more detailed and have better DR than what you can get from many other cameras.
The issue isn’t so much with the camera as the company: Sony. Their communication sucks, and they move on from prosumer products very quickly to the next thing – in both Pro and Prosumer markets.
I feel sorry for you Ming. Perhaps you got a bad copy of the a7rII? Or perhaps you need to stop reviewing altogether and go back to enjoying photography. Seriously! You are looking at stuff with way too critical of an eye (because your review style demands it). Finally, you missed the best of the a7 bunch–the a7s. Don’t let it’s 12MP fool you. It’s my favorite camera since the Canon T90–and that’s going back to the late 1980’s.
I used the a7rII as a rental from LensProToGo (they are out of the US in Boston and excellent), for a super demanding, fast-paced job for HBO. I divided the duty with my a7s producing 5700 photos in two days, and the a7rII performed flawlessly. And the jpegs alone right out out of camera were Razor sharp (shot raw too), and something a Canon can only dream of achieving. As well as rich color.
PS: I do respect your excellent commercial work though Ming, and know that your approach is much more technically oriented than many. I just hate to see you “not enjoying” photography or your photographic tool because of such high expectations. Some valid, I’m sure.
lucky sony product cycle is short, bring on the mk3 in 12 months time, lol.
I really adore Ming Theins work and value his opinion. Since he sees things from his point of view and whether it is suitable for his working style, I don’t have to agree with all aspects and can weight his priorities differently. So no need to feel hurt only because he puts it straight what he likes or not. But for me it gives some very valuable information I can combine with more tech-like reviews (dpreview) or others (luminous landscape) to get to a pretty good picture about whether this camera suits me, too.
Well put. That’s what a review is about. To be able to get a different view and make assessments from different relationships that people experience.
> (trumpeting its virtues on the internet for money
really? Who gets paid for this? lol. I am looking for a job.
I wrote a big thing but now just can’t be bothered. Look, if the person publishing the review is also selling camera’s there’s your starting point, just emulate them. Camera reviewers and used car salesmen become more similar every year 🙂
the way i see it is, buyers of the A7x line are guinnea pigs. the camera has shortcomings but i find fun to be able to use my legacy nikon glass. I find it advantageous to use peaking and zoom magnifier. I’ve taken sharper and more in focus images than I did with my nikon d800. this was my fustration when using nikon, it was a challenges to verify quickly that my image was indeed in focus on the persons eye. the a7x allows me to quickly see this live thru the viewfinder. another huge reason why i put up with the shortcoming is its much smaller and lighter making it way more portable which is a big deal for me. the a7rm2 seems like a vast improvement over the a7r, and when the 3rd and 4th gen come along i’m sure there will be less shortcomings. I am hopeful they fix the lag issue, this is a big complaint i have, reviewing images, zooming in has a very noticeable lag to it, i want it to be much faster. Also the menu system really needs serious improvement. and for the love of pete, please update the way firmwares are uploaded to camera. nikon simply requires you put it on your sd card and upload via camera yet sony can’t get this right. twice now, i have bricked my camera while updating firmware. Sony also needs to address the customer support which is broken and an epic fail in so many ways. In my dream world, nikon buys Sony, thus making a a7r in nikon fashion. I love nikon and continue to use my D800 when it suits me but also adore the small form factor of the a7x and honestly i find the zeiss glass to be superior, sharper, might not be as bright but thats the trade off for smaller and lighter which I prefer.
I figure A7SII by end of year. Sony might do good to put the brakes on for at least another year on an A7 series camera. Next release should feature a complete reworked menu interface and faster everything- no lossy, etc.
anoraks??????? I don’t understand? I looked the word up, it is a parka.
My first association was “people who need a camera to fit into their anorak”.
The old fallacy that mirrorless are merely point and shoot cameras.
Another definition is someone who is overly obsessed with something. In this case, someone who is an unreasonable Sony fanboy, presumably. A rather derogatory statement in any case.
That does indeed make more sense 🙂
It is also a slang expression for people that obsess on a topic…
With a connotation similar to geek or nerd.
I do not see its relevence in describing the a7rii.
Well Ming seems to obsess with the lossy raw issue, so that would make him an anorak, yes?
Maybe he thinks it should be a given, not something to long for.
It was a Freudian lapsus, since he was describing him self.
The things he points out are so trivial, yet he is obsessed to the point that he has to write a piece about them.
“nor does it feel solidly dependable and razor sharp like the D810″…?
This is the D810 that has many reported issues regarding focus from area to area, I suppose.
That is new to me. The D800, yes.
I’m going off the number of threads on DPReview (and other sites) mentioning it, although I’ve had no direct experience of it myself.
It is a curiosity that there are many who hold very personal opinions and seem to feel it necessary to publish them, even though, by definition, they have very limited value.
I have always found Sony cameras to be excellent tools (far better than many reviews would have the world believe) and they have never missed a beat. The A7 series continues in that vein, even though radically different from the A900 or A99. They’re not without annoyances, but to imply that other makes are immune to such failings is, quite frankly, a nonsense.
Ming Theins reviews are controversal for some time now. And he started lashing out against some high profile reviewers lately, which I find inexcusable. I think he got grumpy because the job he would really like to have is not sustaining for him and so he had to start doing more teaching. He should have stayed with his education as a physician. Who is he anyway. Easy to get tired of his photos of people backs and wall textures.
Who did he lash onto lately? I haven’t seen him attacking individuals.
BTW he was trained as a physicist, not physician.
Yeah really weird difference reading his take on the A7II.
Ok, compelling arguments. I will send my Sony A7Rii back. Which camera should I get instead? I need a silent one for shooting at concerts (not rock shows, concerts) and I also would like to record 4k videos from time to time.
Well the A7rii isn’t for you as the silent mode can play havoc under artificial lighting….unless you are doing daylight concerts. Maybe the A7s?
The silent mode requires some settings input from the photographer to avoid the shading phenomenon. This camera isn’t designed for the point and shoot everything on auto crowd.
What settings counteract the issue?
Shutter speed.
So a bit of input and it can overcome all these issues. Can this be verified in the viewfinder before taking the picture? Is this a particular range of shutter speeds that cause this problem?
The demonstration I saw showed the shading when recording video, adjusting the shutter speed minimized or completely eliminated it. Not sure if it’s visible in live view (not likely), you may have to chimp a couple exposures to find a satisfactory shutter speed. The phenomenon is caused by an interaction between the line frequency of the artificial lights and the shutter speed.
Do you know if there is a completley silent camera that doesn’t show this behaviour?
Thanks for your reply. I didn’t know this problem existed. I tried to reproduce it and yes the banding occurs under some type of artifical light. It disappears with the shutter speed set lower then 1/50 seconds. It is not visible in the viewfinder!
At what shutter speeds does the problem occur and what speeds will not be affected?
I thought you were being sarcastic. You’ve bought a camera and you will send it back cause someone has given a bad review. Use it for yourself then decide if his problems are yours.
He IS being sarcastic.
Well I tried to sound a little bit ironic. But then this sort of negative statements about a product I just bought do make me uncomfortable. I am an amateur photographer just trying to learn to shoot goot pictures. Thanks for the good advice though.
I suppose at some point when your camera does what you want equipment doesn’t make that much of a difference to your abilities and especially to the viewer. Everyone seems to be arguing about the best shade of blue. I wish people would realise that the camera and those slight differences are so minuscule compared to say, subject matter. A great camera can’t make you a great photographer and even a camera with faults can work wonderfully in the right hands. That shouldn’t stop people from wanting more of course but the tech today is pretty brilliant.
It’s a psychological thing. We all know those are valid arguments, but you want what you want. It’s that nagging voice in your head that says- I need that extra 2.5% resolution over the A7R and 500k shutter even though it’ll end up on ebay before it ever hits 10k.
Manufacturers know their consumers all too well.
“It’s a psychological thing.”
It really is. That tactile link between brain-eye-world differs for everyone. Some people need weight, metal, wood, materials with substance. Others don’t.
Sometimes it really is just the refinements that make the difference. Compare the initially released X100 with the X100 with the latest firmware. Striking difference to the feel of (and about) the tool.
Fair enough. I like honest reviews.
See, the beauty is in the eye of beholder – personally, I’d really be excited to see my A7 render and offer color palette and latitude that I get from my 5Dmk3.
Credit where created due, the images he chooses to shoot he shoots well.
But we cannot help thinking he’s the type of guy who buys a Subaru WRX then complains about its lopey idle, and cannot get past the fact it isn’t an Accord, all this without ever experiencing the Subaru in snow, where it excels. Some people simply buy & use the wrong cameras, a Sony isn’t for Ming, just as a D810 isn’t right for Philip Bloom.
Who the f is Ming Thein, to begin with?
All cameras have something annoying if you start thinking about it.
Photographers that are good at their job, do pick the camera that can technically do what they need and then begin using it, instintively getting around the eventual short comings and just think about getting the picture they want to take.
Google. He sells “Ultra” prints. He has made a name for himself.
He’s another internet blogger/camera reviewer. The only evidence of his “success” as a professional photographer is what he claims to have done on the website.
His photographs are dull and forgettable. His photoshop proficiency is high.
He prints using small ink dot printing and claims somehow to have invented it.
In other words, another internet charlatan who is popular among a few camera geeks.
One of the most clever street photographers of all time. I mean, his work is spectacular in that arena. A real standout. Plus he shoots commercial clients and has long standing informative blog that you would do well to read.
Now… Who the f are you?
He is just an amateur. Which there is nothing wrong with it. Therefore who cares what he thinks.
All cameras have something annoying if you start thinking about it. Photographers that are good at their job, do pick the camera that can technically do what they need and then begin using it, instintively getting around the eventual short comings and just think about getting the picture they want to take.
He sells his prints. It seems to be something else held against him. By the very definition of the word, that makes him a professional.
And he makes his primary income as a commercial photographer (one of his specialities is watch photography).
He’s a pro and is well respected.
I don’t necessarily agree with a lot of what he says but there are many points that I do.
I was referring to the state of mind more than if he make a living out of taking photos.
The only basis you have for his being a “pro” (whatever the hell that means- one paying job per month? One per quarter?), is what he claims on his website.
He is a professional blogger, pure and simple. His output online is too prolific for him to be plausibly holding down a job as a regularly working commercial photographer.
He may be respected, but almost entirely by internet-prowling camera collectors. He has no reputation to speak of outside that limited (in so many ways!) demographic.
I am an avid advocate of and leap to defend it from any criticism no matter how slight or valid. I hereby chastise roundly.
Scarves and team replica shirts are now available from…
supportersclub.com
Thank you.
This political message was brought to you by sycophants for Ming Thein.
Oooo! tshiiiiiiiiish!
Bravo sir! Well played!
This post quoted from DPR supports Ming’s view but adds extra “facts” from that users experience. Hard to deny facts…
Quote:
I own two a7RII’s, a7II, a7R, NEX7, NEX3. You won’t find a bigger EMount supporter.
No opinions here. Just the facts of why Sony EMount isn’t comparable to DSLR or AMount on many levels. Yes, the EMount cameras shoot great photos. But they have lost many hard won subtle evolutions that larger cameras earned through decades of camera companies listening to, and improving the shooter experience.
Don’t deny the facts please. The EMount system would be better for everyone if Sony listened to a few seasoned professionals like Ming and others who raise valid issues. No one is hurt if Sony acknowledges some nuances that photographers have relied upon. Some of us are crippled by Sony ignoring them.
Facts only…
No opinion expressed. I’ll keep that to myself so we can discuss the facts, rather than how valid one opinion is over the other. I want to hear your opinion about these facts.
•The perceived promise of adapted lenses working as well as their native mounts is false. Even with Sony’s own LAEA 1, 3, 4 adapters, AF-C is incompatible with Continuous High motor drive. Must use Cont Low at 2fps, and it’s about as accurate as an old Sony a200 focus system. Also, no Sony/Minolta teleconverters are compatible. It is not a replacement for DLSR or SLT tracking. I’d be interested to know if Canon teleconverters work with Metabones adapter though. Yes native EMount lenses focus better. But the selection doesn’t present itself as a full DSLR replacement.
What is your opinion about that?
•Recent studio shoot comparison, two battery grip a7RII got 710 shots writing RAW. One a99 battery got 840 writing RAW+JPG on two cards. a7RII required computer/hard drive backup, lens adapter, battery grip, making it the larger system to carry. Ten clients, six hours. Each client got a full camera playback review of every shot taken of them.
What is your opinion about that?
•Vertical grip with two batteries will not transfer power to second battery when tethering. Sony Remote Camera Control software shuts down with low battery warning at 20% left on battery one. Will not clear until first battery replaced, regardless if second battery is present. Second batt is useless. Less power, less shots, more tether software startups. Same thing happens when installing software from Play Memories App Store. a99/900 transfer VG battery power seamlessly for tethering.
What is your opinion about that?
•The fly-by-wire manual focus system mandates accelerated action, or turn it super slow for fine tuning and get no action at all. Jumps everywhere except where a linear lens would go. Videotogs have difficulty with focus pulls. The accelerometer could be an option. Not a mandate. A smart monkey might design it with variable user selections with fast/slow action. Can use manual focus lens… but then get crippled with no AF.
What is your opinion about that?
•EMount mandates minimum two button push for AF selector points. No diagonal scrolling available to get there faster… same for magnifier and playback. Two hurdles which make it slower than regular DLSR joystick instant control with horizontal scrolling for AF selector, magnifier, and magnified playback viewing.
What is your opinion about that?
•Some praise the dedicated EV dial as nice for Auto shooter togs. But manual shooters find it useless as wasted space and cannot be repurposed for anything else. Does not auto reset like a legacy camera control can provide. It’s on the edge, without a lock… Yet the shoot mode control, in center of camera needs a lock, of which I’ve heard numerous reviewers complain about, and no one ever asked for on this camera because of the placement. I always find my EV dial bumped from 0. AMount will reset it as courtesy option.
What is your opinion about that?
•The dumb metal thumb bracket accessory for RX1 has a lock for MI shoe fit… but the flash adapters and microphones don’t have any locks. Should that be the other way around? CaNikon have full metal locking sleds on their flashes, yet Sony has four plastic toes… not even full sleds. Do you like Sony’s decision that fifty years of pros requesting and using locking hot shoe accessories was invalid?
What is your opinion about that?
•Sony fixed the plastic lens mount flexing with a7II, RII (but never admitted it on a7R). But with lens adapters, the mounting points are doubled, causing rotational wobbles when the bigger lenses are zoomed. Always a tick that isn’t found (or is much reduced) with larger native mounts. Since it’s the only way to get f2.8 or f2 zoom lenses onto an EMount…
What is your opinion about that?
•Battery door on all EMount cameras are missing the auto close spring lock. Can’t just shut the door like other cameras have rewarded for a long long time now. Must flip the lock. Harder with gloves on. Battery is half life, so more battery door usage is required. Does the weight saving missing spring lock help the shooter experience?
What is your opinion about that?
•Emount batteries can be inserted in any direction. Only one works. Some EMounts have contacts on right, some on left. Inconsistency makes for eight different ways to attempt battery install. Compared to AMount and other cameras one way only, which method is best for quick field changes under client or journalistic pressures, or in dark, or with gloves on?
What is your opinion about that?
•Some EMount cameras like a7RII install card label facing back of camera. RX10II installs card into same style door, but requires card label to face forward towards lens. For those with both cameras, do these inconsistencies contribute to a better or worse shooting experience?
What is your opinion about that?
_____
Ok I’ll stop there. But that’s the short list, unless you want to talk about less vertical grip controls, or less rear LCD articulation, or the fact that EVF shuts off when Remote Camera Control is engaged, but doesn’t with a77II… Maybe some of you would like to talk about a Sony decision to kill iISO hotshoe quick snap lock and replace it with a screw tensioner from 1974. Or was it 75?… I’ve stripped three of them so far. No no, let’s not talk about that here.
And remember, this isn’t the place to talk about other new Sony cameras. So don’t bring up silly stuff like why the RX10II prevents zooming after AF has locked, or AF-C with Cont Motor. Let’s not talk about that.
Not stating my opinion here… remember. No opinions have been expressed. Just facts from my user experience. And I’d like to hear your opinion about these facts I experience. You can keep your opinion of me to yourself… Unless you intentionally want to get this thread shut down.
We’d strongly suggest you formulate your own options here. No one camera is designed for every photographers particular situation. We offer various courses at the Nikon School. Please feel free to call us at 1 800 NIKON USA
Is there a word for when one person’s condemnation is another’s praise? “Something designed for anoraks by anoraks” comes off as high praise in my book. Disruptive, innovative products that aren’t conforming to pre-existing expectations tend to be the best products for the long-term health of the broader market. If you gave me a choice between a “professional camera” and ” something designed for anoraks by anoraks,” I would choose the latter every time and, frankly, I cannot help but question the intelligence of those who would not. A camera is an artistic/creative tool; it is not a Platonic ideal.
I DO think that the A7RII has its flaws, but I think the broader distaste for people who care about what the technology can enable, regardless of its relationship with “traditional” photography, is short-sighted and inexcusable. The last thing you want, if you value progress, is rigid adherence to market brackets and segmentation and tiers of product quality, which is what we have been seeing from many “camera” companies lately. Sony is investing in the technology, not the “camera”, which is where the future lies. Just go on Amazon, you will see in nearly any market also-ran products that clearly exist just so ___ Company can have ___ Product on the market. It is the products made by anoraks that tend to disrupt and really move things forward at more than the glacial, stodgy refresh pace of the established players who profit from the current state of the market.
And just to be clear–Sony The Corporation is a massive transgressor in creative fields, and their membership in the RIAA is more than enough of a mark on their name. They are not some white knight of the future come to enlighten the world. But right now? What they are doing for the established photography players, the makers of “cameras” as Ming Thein defines them, is a wake-up call and a reminder that photography is driven by the technology under the hood. Failing to invest first in that leaves you vulnerable to anoraks.
Sony, I think, set themselves up for this by pricing their ‘gadgets’ (or, as Ming puts it, their ‘disposable consumer tools’) at the same level of Nikon or Canon’s higher-end, thereby inviting the same level of scrutiny.
Contrast that to Blackmagic Design, which disrupted (and continues to disrupt) the video market. They keep their prices comparatively low, knowing that early adopters aren’t inclined to spend a ton on tech that will, by definition, have a short lifespan.
I actually can say worse things about any Nikon or Canon so nothing really bad there. People have opinions. IMHO D4 and 1Dx are useless as MF sucks due to the miniature super dark and fuzzy OVF
BlackMagic are interrupting nothing but few blogger minds. No one uses them for anything meaningful sorry to break reality on you.
I’m not talking about the products themselves, merely how the companies are positioned in terms of “Market Disrupting” or “Established Player.”
Sony seems to want it both ways, and it might lead to trouble.
LOL at Blackmagic . You are still talking about Blackmagic ? The cameras have been total flop. Ask Philip Bloom. He doesn’t use any of the Blackmagic for professional work but uses A7s.
Good grief.
I’m not advocating Blackmagic Design’s “sensors-in-a-box.”
I merely appreciate the pressure they’ve applied to the market in general, and how they’ve gone about doing it.
Who’s Philip Bloom?
If Blackmagic at its price is disruptive of the video market, then so is the a7RII. If you put it in the video segment then it’s decent what you get at $3200 and the stills are practically for free, though I usually tend to think of it the other way around.
Yes, but a Subaru WRX comes with summer tires from the factory, so I hope you aren’t driving it that way in the snow.
I wouldn’t be reviewing a Sony A7Rll, then comparing it to a Nikon D810 and COMPLETELY ignoring the D810’s complete incompetence where multi-media is concerned either. That’d be just as ridiculous a rookie mistake as using those factory tires in the snow!
Good Review. I have the same feeling as you. The A7RII is a spec monster but is far from pro in certain aspects. Easy one being ISO64/ lossy raw / good menu / all functions for Fn button… So easy to do it for Sony yet they don’t care. Battery is more challenging (small body, IBIS taking power…) and they give 2 so hard to blame them. But some easy fix that could even be done by firmware update they can’t be forgiven.
Good to hear opinions of people and especially for Sony that may be useful in their next iteration. For me though this review is more of a joke than any value. sorry to say but a person that shows vivid lack of knowledge and enthusiasm to learn is not really the person I would trust to review innovative products. I bet many reviewers claimed Ford Ts are bad when everyone used horse carriages. There is this horrid smoke and constant noise…..
Agreed, and 75% of the A7Rll’s magic is in the video pipeline – but they’ll simply omit reviewing that part, because, well, they don’t understand it. For better (read: more mature) reviews check out the filmmakers. Start with ErikNaso.com he also explores the flaws in what Sony are making, but he also discusses the points they’re getting correct. He’s a working cameraman too, so his opinions have real-world merit. These “stills wannabes” are out there with $4500 OTUS glass focussing on the live-view LCD because they didn’t buy the correct camera, a Nikon Df, its the camera that was designed from the ground-up to focus a @ f/1.4 off of the ground glass. That to us at Nikon, says a great deal……….
You are calling him inexcusable for lashing out at other reviewers and then what do you do…..?
I don’t quite get the mentality of attacking the speaker and his work when a review doesn’t come out how you like it.
It’s a review that shows a different opinion, it isn’t a personal vendetta.
Trust me, it won’t devalue the camera!!
Please don’t be Sony Fan-boy !
=> please don’t be Sony hater !
Saying that IBIS is a con, because when you want to clean your sensor, it’s harder ? ? ?
Better say that changing senses are a con because you might bring dust on your sensor…
Is the A7r is slow ? Well all hybrid seems laggy… That’s true, but well what they bring is really worth it. Of course a spyglass will turn ON faster… There is no electronic in there.
Menu are off the topic always. Some people like them, some can’t bear them. I personnaly doesn’t like black casing, that doesn’t make a con for the Sony cameras… It’s like color or taste…
Well, if Ming had said that IBIS is con, that you would be right. But that is not what he had said. His con is that the sensor is harder to clean (which is a side-effect of the implementation of IBIS in this camera).
If you read his full post, you will clearly see that IBIS is one of pro points he lists for the A7r II.
Its always funny to read the ignorant posts from people that only read the SAR summary and not the entire article/review that the post talks about. I’ve had the RII for a couple weeks now, the sensor is a dust magnet. I’ve had to hit it with the blower a couple times now. I’ve owned the a5100 for months and haven’t had to clean it once.
Its a legitimate concern since as pointed out below IBIS keeps the sensor suspended and a wet cleaning may put pressure on the mechanism. I’m terrified at the thought of something bending during a clean and having to send it back to Sony since the top plate costs almost $500, I can’t imagine what the 5-axis mechanism costs to replace.
How does IBIS complicate sensor cleaning? That is one of the stupidest cons of any camera I have ever read. My canon cameras are dust sucking vacuums and they use “brute force” to shake off dust unsuccessfully. My a99 has stayed as clean or cleaner than those bodies despite ibis…which can be turned off. I would have considered reading the review but he does not deserve a click if that is what he has to offer.
How does IBIS complicate sensor cleaning? That is one of the stupidest cons of any camera I have ever read. My canon cameras are dust sucking vacuums and they use “brute force” to shake off dust unsuccessfully. My a99 has stayed as clean or cleaner than those bodies despite ibis…which can be turned off. I would have considered reading the review but he does not deserve a click if that is what he has to offer.
I think he is referring to the floating movement of the sensor and it causing problems when wet cleaning. If you move the camera around with the body cap off, you can see the sensor moving freely.
This was never an issue on the SLTs or older Alpha DSLRs, as the IBIS mechanism always seemed to be locked in place when the camera was off.
I haven’t needed to do a wet clean on my A7II yet, but the ‘floating’ sensor does make me wonder how easy it will be to swipe a sensor swab across it.
Does it seem to you that the sensor is incapable of being locked by the hardware if the firmware could be updated to include a sensor-locked cleaning mode?
Not sure. Maybe not. Otherwise you’d think the camera would already have a mechanism to park the sensor when switched off, rather than have it floating/rattling around.
Cleaning the sensor might damage the delicate IBIS mechanism. That’s what he means. We don’t know, as very few people actually have the camera.
The a7II has been out for a while. The IBIS mechanism is the same, aspects of cleaning for that camera is the same.
i know some people have very special needs a camera has to fulfill but generally i think when your photography sucks you should not blame it on the camera. focus on the things you can do with it and dont search for faults/excuses all the time.
A couple of decent firmware updates is all it will need to fix that lack of pleasure for Ming. Hopefully Sony will do as good a job with it as Fuji did with the X100.
I’ve prepared a list of my responses to his 6 points in his review.
1) Sounds like he just doesn’t like A7’s then.
2) Menu appears to be a matter of preference, some people love it, some hate it. Personally I don’t mind the menu on my A7ii but I do wish it were easier to find stuff at times, but it’s not something I would call ‘unintuitive’.
3) Can’t speak for this one.
4) Sounds like you’re not using it right.
5) See previous answer.
6) This affects all mirrorless cameras, get an arctic butterfly. I do wish though that Sony would at least close the shutter on power off to cover the sensor when changing lenses.
Reading his conclusion, I’ll reiterate, sounds like he doesn’t like A7’s, nor has much taste for Sony as a camera brand as his comment on ‘consumer electronics’ sounds like he hasn’t gotten over that Sony also makes TVs and stereos and hasn’t given the camera a fair shake. It’s not CaNikon enough for him. Unfortunately this is the internet and everybody is free post a blog about their own opinion no matter how stupid it is.
Hi Mawell
I completely agree about A7’s needing the ability to cover the shutter when removing the lenses. The sensor is very exposed. On a windy day it’s a pain in the ass. Hopefully it will be implemented in the future. BTW it’s a feature that would be useful on all camera types
Well, I’m asking for that since Nex7… But this is true for any Hybrid camera type, because flange to sensor is short and the shutter is open per default. On a reflex, the distance is much higher and the shutter is closed per default.
Raoul
Lloyd is indeed peculiar. His lashing on the Alpha 7RII reported here is also counter-balanced by appraisal like this:
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150822_1402-SonyA7R_II-focus.html
Both end of a spectrum at the same time, very strange.
I like reading Ming Thein’s blog (first and foremost because it’s a well written blog reagardless of the content) because he made very clear that his review’s analysis are based on HIS business point of view and needs. He doesn’t sound like a shop owner trying to sell you something. I don’t run a photography business so I don’t have to be agree with everything he said just pick what I need from point I can relate to.
And for those critisizing his high expectation (almost unreachable), what can you expect from a guy who was involved in a F1 team and high-end Swiss watches 🙂
Which F1 team?
If you had read his post, you would know the answer (IBIS, as implemented here, results in a freely moving sensor when the camera is switched off).
Thank you for the explanation. I do not consider that a complication, it’s easy enough to compensate.
The issue has become more relevant to Ming since his A7r II has gathered dust spots that couldn’t be removed by sensor cleaning modes or dry cleaning within the few weeks he has used the camera while his Olympus bodies haven’t done so over the four years he has used them.
This point (as all others) is not Ming saying: ‘This is why the A7r II is bad’ or even ‘This is something most people won’t like about the A7r II’. This is merely: ‘This is what I (Ming) dislike about the A7r II’.
I’d hazard a guess that the “Olympus” body doesn’t see that much use, and certainly not that many lens changes, especially given his propencity for chasing absolute perfection in his files……….. Just Sayin’
2 Things to do before complaining about Sony bad image quality:
1- Do not use ACR, Capture One is way better…
2- Avoid 12-bit RAW http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1379163
Thanks for the info. Didn’t know about 12 bit case…
The bottom line is that Ming Thein ended up buying an A7RII for his personal use. That tells me more than his review.
Sony’s version of a firmware update is v1.20 or v2.00, you must not know Sony cameras.
Not only that, but on an SLT, while the shutter stays open when off on those too, it’s always covered by a stationary non-moving translucent mirror.
I finally broke down and bought an arctic butterfly to clean the sensors on my cameras 2 weeks ago, my 1yr old A77ii was far cleaner than my 5mth old A7ii.
That said, the 5-axis IBIS on the A7ii didn’t pose an issue for cleaning whatsoever as long as you’re careful – another reason why I think the reviewer is full of s**t.
0.1% is one in a thousand, that’s pretty high. I think the actual occurance rate is around 0.01%-0.001% 🙂
Lol
Exactly, glad you agree, his partial review was laughable wasn’t it!
Really?? I’ve read about a dozen of his articles and only saw a couple good shots in them IMO. Too…clinical, or too clean, or too plain, one of which he mentioned others giving that comment to his photos.
I do not know anything about the a7xx, but have the a6000 and had four nex cameras, and a couple of lenses before. Since I have the Ricoh GR I no longer find any pleasure in using a Sony camera and I fully understand Ming, the a6000 is also slow to turn on, the focus is inaccurate etc. I am just selling the a6000 and my remaining two lens. I do not know yet what migt supplement the GR in the normal range.
Sounds like you caught Ming on a bad day. Maybe girlfriend broke up with him or just didn’t get paid by that client on time as usual. He doesn’t have to say much other than he is a DSLR Nikon shooter and leave it at that.
That’s not fragility. You’re not even disagreeing.
I put a protection film on the screen and that’s that. It affects visibility a little, but it’s better than the coating coming off.
You do realize that’s the coating coming off, not “stains internally”?
All of his criticisms seem pretty subjective and something most users learn to accept when switching systems. So far the only valid criticism I’ve heard is the lack of 14 bit RAW and a Sony Pro Service, which are things that will likely come in time.
Also the A7 series has three dials…. THREE! DIALS! This is something that even most professional DSLRs don’t have. You can program your camera to adjust shutter, ISO, and aperture without toggling or holding things down.
Agree 100%.
Complaining about the menu, really? I couldn’t care less. Who needs that on an A7 anyway. There are loads of programmable buttons and the F menu you can fill up with your own mappings. I miss some functions there but am sure this might change in time.
I’m not saying the menu is good, it could use some color and better sorting, but as I said, I couldn’t care less.
Things that will come in time will not help those who need those things right now, like pro support. You have to understand that Ming is writing from his own perspective as a working pro. What he says has little or no bearing on most users, because they don’t need pro service or don’t need to chase that final 1% of image quality. Ming’s needs differ, and he is entitled to his opinion no matter how irrelevant his complaints seem to you.
For 99.9% of the users the A7rII will work just fine, I’m sure. But I have to ask, for $3200 body only, why do we have to say “it’s good enough for most users” or “it will likely be fixed over time through FW updates”? For that kind of money, there should be no major complaints, like lossy RAW. I don’t care one way or the other, it’s way out of my league anyway. Happy to see Sony trying to push the limits, but for such premium price, they should aim to please even the most demanding users.
Who is this Ming Thein loser and why should I care about his opinion?
The Nikon’s screen was optimized for 2.8 like all their screens and not even easily swapped! Plus the omission of the 51pt focus system was a major mistake for a camera that expensive. I really enjoyed using my Df but I had to sell it when I realized how much of a difference the AF in the 750 made, and it’s a cheaper camera! I’m really hoping for a DF2 that resolves these issues.
That’s why Sony are on a roll with their most excellent EVF, focus magnification and peaking for manual focus is so easy. This set-up far exceeds any LCD live-view implementation too, for absolute accuracy of focus a quality EVF is so hard to beat!
Doesn’t sound like many comments are coming form people that actually read Ming’s review. He bought the camera. I’ve read his reviews for a few years, he’s a working professional and very particular about his gear fitting his needs. Can’t blame him for pointing out faults, every camera has them. Some of the complaints from the other four A7’s have been addressed, some haven’t and there are new frustrations.
I love the A7RII, but it drives me nuts that I can’t assign s35 mode to a custom button or even put it in the quick Fn menu.
I hate the fact that I can’t do anything with the shutter button in video.
Its really slow writing to the card – even when shooting smaller jpeg’s and not 42mp raws.
The custom setting banks on the top dial won’t retain certain settings (again no s35 or custom WB so more menu diving).
There’s still no quick/easy way to move a focus point – a little joystick like the A99’s would work wonders. It makes you take your eye away from the EVF, sucks when you want to just nudge the focus point over a few steps.
And so on…
The most annoying aspect is that some of this could be fixed with a FW update that Sony has been unwilling to do. I knew this going in, but still, they’re just tone deaf with it comes to making their cameras more user-friendly.
“some of this could be fixed with a FW update that Sony has been unwilling to do”
What are you talking about? This camera isn’t even widely available for purchase and you’re saying Sony is unwilling to release new firmware for it? Did you know that a first firmware upgrade is usually designed to take into account problems encountered by consumers in the first wave of deployment? To release a firmware update now and miss something that comes up in a week would be pretty dumb.
The biggest difference I notice between pros and amateurs is the way they address equipment issues. Pros will do their best to work around an issue and will share that advice, while amateurs devote large amounts of time to poking and prodding at their cameras and lenses until they find a way to break it or stress it usually. Then they debate and argue endlessly.
People creating work with their tools aren’t sitting around complaining about small things that could possibly be better– they note it, work around it and move on.
Whiny reviewers with their tidy little lists of things that “should be better,” and “issues Sony won’t resolve,” like not having a custom button for S35 mode, for example, are so annoying. It’s hard to imagine any of these super-anal types producing art of any kind- because that mindset isn’t conducive to the creative process. And this isn’t a brand-name (Sony, here) issue or even a photographic issue– it’s simply a phenomenon that I see running rampant many places– especially at SonyAlphRumors and in articles like this.
What a brilliant analysis. Duly noted, pros never complain about their gear. Thank you.
Precisely.
See my response to “meanwhile” idiot.
Hopefully, you left out a comma. 🙂
Sorry for being a dick, shouldn’t comment before coffee.
You got that from what he said?
What, some dumbass response about what pros want? Pros want a camera that doesn’t get in the way of shooting, if you’re endlessly menu diving for basic functions – that’s not the answer – that’s a waste of time and money. If you have to jump through hoops to perform a simple custom WB or move the focus point – that’s not the answer. Not being able to save ALL settings to one of the custom mode dial banks is ridiculous, because pretty much every CaNikon camera can. I make money with my cameras and I do work around this stuff because that’s, sadly, just life with a Sony. But it doesn’t have to be that way.
These are issues that have existed from day 1 with all the A7’s – these are things photographers routinely do and Sony is tone deaf. Even their own Artisans like Brian Smith and Bob Krist talk about these issues to no avail.
We’re now on the 5th release and some of the complaints – like min SS with auto ISO have FINALLY been addressed, but not with a FW update – instead its in the new model. That’s the exact “consumer electronics” mentality Ming was talking about.
I love the image coming out of the A7rII in both stills and video, but its a frustrating camera to use.
“I make money with my cameras and I do work around this stuff because that’s, sadly, just life with a Sony.”
Fair enough, but there are other compromises you make with any system you choose, and you could have ended that sentence with any company name. And advantages you gain that the others don’t have. It is frustrating, but it’s also life.
You could replace Sony with any other brand, but there are some basic usability issues that Sony refuses to address. These have been well sorted in CaNikon cameras. They may have issues too, but I can setup a custom menu so I don’t have to scroll through 30 pages of menus to get to the 4 or 5 functions that can’t be placed on the Fn menu or custom buttons (something Sony could easily do with FW and something people have been asking for since the A7 was first released). I can also easily move focus points and do custom white balances and custom banks on the top dial actually retain your settings with any CaNikon dslr. I’m firmly invested in Sony, so I’ll continue to bring these issues to light. I’m glad people like Ming with large readerships do the same.
Cheers
I feel you. I had a Sony camera and these small little things that could be easily fixed by FW and could make the camera a lot more practical but, they were never addressed by Sony and I would see it again in the next generation. That kind of thing really frustrated me, and when I saw that Fuji was quite the opposite it frustrated me even more. These little things matter, the care for customers matter. Sony basically listen when they feel like or when they are creating a new product, otherwise they don’t really seem to care.
For instance, insisting on the smaller form factor possible, this overheating thing in video is nothing new, I had some NEX cameras before and they all had that issue, after sometime of recording they would show me a message to shut down due to overheating problem and here we are, some years after, newer models, same issue. It’s also nice to see Samsung buying in this FW update thing, hopefully some day Sony will feel like participating as well.
He is right. There is plenty room to improve. I bought, played with it for a week, but returned it. Maybe the 3 generation will be better.
What didn’t you like that you felt needed improving?
Same for me – autofocus was not nearly fast enough (bird photographer). EVF freezes for half a sec between shots when doing continuous shots (tracking something made almost impossible). Half a second for the display to switch from back to eye piece is often the difference in getting the shot in my world.
Perhaps 🙂
“It just feels like a consumer electronic device in operation, something designed for anoraks by anoraks, not a camera.” … I think he is hung up on it having the word Sony on the front of the camera… This is actually the first Sony A7 series camera I have used that has operated completely smoothly for me (and I do own a D810 too)… Its the first A7 camera that I can turn off in-between shots… and then turn on and bring it up to my eye, half press, auto focus and shoot…no delay and no issues… I also haven’t had a single miss of focus using the 35mm F2.8, 55mm F1.8 or the 70-200mm Sony FE lenses… its not perfect…but it also has not hiccuped on me once…
ah… review was about the A7rii not the a6000… not the same camera just as an FYI..
You missed the point.
Wow, I’m putting my a6000 on eBay as the new model then! I thought it was a firmware update that just gave me XAVC-S support.
You are clearly trying to make an exception into a rule. The A6000 had that update because Sony was basically forced to do it, otherwise, they would had waited for a new model. Sony had no camera from APS-C line up that could even pose against Panasonic’s GH4 in terms of video, not just that but right after the A6000, Sony released a camera that already had the new XAVC-S codec, and if I remember correctly it was one of the 1″ sensor. So it didn’t make any sense to have a 1″ sensor camera that had the new codec and an A6000 that didn’t and that had barely arrived the stores. I had a few Sony cameras and I can say that a big FW update is far from being the rule.
No, I’m not, I actually have an a6000. I’ve had both kind of cameras from Sony (those they update and those they don’t). It is frustrating when they don’t do it.
The issue is that they don’t update most of their cameras, even more if they don’t cost much. For instance, the NEX-5n was the first to have the AVCHD 2.0 and 1080p60, it had a nice capacitive touchscreen but unfortunately, the touchscreen was just there, it didn’t have touch shutter, something very basic that could easily be addressed by a very minor FW update, but it didn’t, you could have more customizeble settings via Fn button as well, that menu was even worse than it’s now.
Then, they bought the NEX-5r and this new model addressed some of it, it had touchshutter and it also had Wi Fi and apps for the first time – those apps, to pay for timelapse, stopmotion, etc. things that come for free in lots of other cameras – it had more fn button and a new dial, something it desperated needed. But then, Sony took away the good capacitive screen and replaced it for a worse resistive screen. Why increase its touchscreen feats to use a worse type of touchscreen? It makes no sense! And it was back then when Sony stopped caring to even release a roadmap for the lenses.
On other hand, Fuji and now even Samsung are addressing a lot things via FW update, even these little things but little things that can make the camera a much better tool, something that makes your life easier instead of getting in your way with these minor but annoying things.
What I’ve learned from Sony is to hope they get it right in the release because otherwise you should not expect much from their FW update and to try to get around the annoying things and pretend they are not important and doing so, maybe you get lucky enough to convince yourself that they are really not important. And the more expensive model you get, the more chance you get from Sony actually caring about updating it.
You can basically divide this wole comment section in two, those that are content and think that the little annoying things are ok to be there and nothing be done about it and the ones that think that if the little annoying things can be easily fixed, it only makes sense to Sony to do so.
One side will say that you just get used to it and they will down play anyone that say otherwise, well simply because. The other side will never understand how the others can be so content and passive about it, something they think it should be an obligation, if Sony cares for the consumer.
In Sony’s view, FW updates are basically for lenses, minor AF improvements and bugs, usability and practical improvements are not worth the time if by the time they address it, there is a new model that is full of new feats, so people should buy it or be forgotten.
TL;DR
There’s lots more than two types.
Well, literally speaking, of course there are more than 2 types but, if you look at the comment section you can see those that understand what Ming meant with his points and the anorak analogy – and actually read his article – and those that feel personally offended and simply dismiss the review – including those that agree with him or share similar notes – by saying you should basically be just content with Sony.
And those that, while agreeing with some of Ming’s points, understand that whinging about it on this site does absolutely nothing, and sends their feedback to Sony, rather than to an empty void.
And those who, frustrated that their new camera isn’t magic, and they have to put time into learning it and getting to know it, return the camera waiting for the non-existent magic camera to be released.
I do feel that the odd, relatively mildly negative review can just be passed over without recourse to all this vitriol. I’m sure all cameras can annoy anyone if they choose to be annoyed or are set in their ways. I don’t even own an A7r ii myself. All l can say is that none of my previous Sony cameras – A100, A700, A77, Nex 7 – or my current A7 mk ii have ever fooled me into thinking that they were not cameras. (And damn good cameras at that) All digital cameras are electronic devices and people who buy them are consumers. So what? Any time l buy a new camera, l learn how to use it. I don’t expect it to be custom made for me alone. I hardly use many of the features “needed” by others. That’s my style. Slap a Zeiss Loxia on, set a couple of parameters and off l go. Heaven!
Yeah, I’m not quite sure I understand that logic myself.
I got the A7ii-yes agreed with point 4 -AF with normal E-mount lenses is not exactly speedy – just the right side of acceptable most of the time, but in even slightly backlit situations, be prepared to wait – and get a lot of false positives
I have problems with it and the local Sony Center in Singapore is at a loss over it.
not every camera can satisfy every photographer, just pick what camera suitable for you and go with it to create image
Reading the comments I understand why Sony also don’t care much about the little things that could be easily fixed via FW and that could tremendously improve the practicality and usability of their cameras.
Looking at the cameras I can see that that is bollocks.
Have you updated the a6000 to the latest firmware? No startup delays here. Focus is great for me, which lenses are you using?
Plus, Ricoh GR cameras are legendary for that, of course another camera is going to feel not quite the same.
Also, looking at Ming’s gear list, I think he might have missed the fact that while he is an excellent photographer, he is also, without doubt, an anorak. (not an insult, btw)
“I have a diverse international client base including Nissan, Jaeger Le-Coultre, Van Cleef & Arpels, Maitres du Temps, Richemont, the Swatch Group, Hijjas Kasturi Architects, Tange Associates Architects, Sunway Group, Maybank, Eastern & Oriental, The Boston Consulting Group, several Michelin star chefs including Fergus Henderson and Bruno Menard, The City of London and Moon Travel Guides.”
This is just from his website of course. Maybe he isn’t booked out as some other photographers but he does actually work successfully in a non blogger role.
A little research other than pushing some buttons on your computer will also find his reputation is pretty established in some Asian countries.
It’s laughable how people get their undies in a twist over a review and then attempt to discredit the author.
Yeah, four years of using Olympus bodies involved less lens changes than four weeks of testing the A7r II. You are not hazarding a guess, you are clasping at straws trying to explain away something you don’t want to be true.
And if you had read Ming’s post, you would not be making the same wild guesses like almost everybody else here: Ming has shot over 100’000 shots on his Olympus bodies over those four years. There is also another post in this thread reporting how the A7r II is a dust magnet for that poster as well.
” For some the image quality is astonishing (and do not care about 12 or
14 bit RAW)”
In Sony it is 7 to 11 bits, 8 bits on average. 12 would be a huge improvement bro.
” and for some not because they know that in 0,1% of the
pictures the lossless RAW compression shows posterization artifacts ”
Actually, it is lossy compression in Sony. And very primitive at that – JPEG compression is much more advanced and as a result less lossy at the same bitrate (AND allows higher bitrate too – although probably not in Sony cameras).
The RAW compressor takes 16 consecutive pixels at a time. The darkest and the brightest pixels are encoded as 11-bit absolute values. Every other pixel in the bunch is encoded using 7-bit deltas. So 16 pixels are compressed down to 16 bytes. The issue is that a single very bright pixel can cause serious posterization for the remaining 14 pixels, which are only encoded using 7 bits. Very primitive and ineffective compression. There’s no reason why they couldn’t offer a lossless compressed option, using simple ZIP.
I have lot respect for Ming’s work and have read many posts on his website..I can understand his frustration with the Sony A7 system..I myself had thought about moving to a Nikon system after using the A7 for a while..however the bottom line is that the Sony mirrorless system although flawed is still superior to traditional a DSLR systems..here is why..
1. the electronic viewfinder has loads of practical usability compared to a traditional optical view-finder
2. Sony’s implementation of tracking using the center focus point only in AF-C mode is way better than what traditional DSLR’s can do, especially for portraits. I love how the green focus box follows the subject around when you frame the shot..its just awesome..
3. Sony’s customization buttons and shortcut keys place everything at your finger tips..makes changing settings a breeze..
4. Carl-Zeiss lenses with autofocus, a Sony exclusive feature
I can keep on going but the list above should make anyone happy..
My suggestion to Ming is to spend time with the Camera..and get the short keys customized according to his use..and while doing this think logically on what he needs to take a better shot..not try to mimic the shortkeys he was using on his traditional DSLR..Sony’s A7 series has way too many features and practicality than a DSLR..it took several months to get my keys right..
#4 should also say “full frame” since Zeiss has crop lenses with AF on Fuji
Is it??? Would be good to know for sure…
I have had the NEX-7 for 3 years and it’s in perfect condition including the LCD and I’ve shot 50,000+ photos.