The shutter vibration measured by Beforethecoffee
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There has been a great discussion about the possible Sony A7r vibration issue posted here on SAR by John Holmes. But SAR reader Ferrell McCollough doesn’t seem to see it this as a real issue. On Beforethecoffee (Click here) he writes:
“I found that there is no discernible difference between an image taken with a strobe while the shutter was open for 10 seconds ie. no shutter vibration and a normal exposure with shutter vibration. I checked with a 35mm FE lens and a Nikon 85mm 1.4 and metabones adapter. I also did not see any difference in the A7R mounted on a sturdy tripod or resting on a table top. Both had image quality matching the strobe image with no shutter vibration.
I feel very comfortable in my conclusion that the A7R is not losing image quality due to shutter vibration.“
86 Responses
The original article claimed the vibration was limited to long lenses attached to tripod via lens mounting ring.
This article does not test those conditions therefore does not in any way contradict what the original article said.
berry is 100% right here.
There isn’t an issue until shooting like above 100mm or something like that.
I thought he tested with a 70-200 at 200 in the article above?
He did make a test with a tripod mounted 70-200 at 200 mm where he took one photo at 1/100 second ISO 2500 with steady light and another photo at ISO 100 with strobes and a delay of 7 seconds after opening the shutter.
And the photos from this test are clearly different. The photo at 1/100 second is much softer. But I would not call it blurred, only softer.
He writes a lot about the problem with having to use different ISOs for this test. But I did not find any explanation of why he didn’t just lower the light from the strobes so he could use ISO 2500 for that shot too.
“why he didn’t just lower the light from the strobes so he could use ISO 2500 for that shot too.”
I’m reporting the tests as I do them. I want to make sure I’ve done all the testing with the existing strobe power – duplicating the setup is impossible so once I lower the strobe power there is no returning to the exact power. Stay tuned.
Before the change I want to try both at ISO 100.
its amazing how people nowadays just pick and chooses words to support their own bias rather than to appreciate the content written.
Schools have been failing badly in their comprehension training/
I have found this thread very interesting. I have been working with Joe Holmes over the past 2 weeks on the shutter vibration issue. I am the guy who supplied the images showing the shutter shake in Joe’s article. ( and no I did not kick the tripod!). Today I spent 4 hours inside an aircraft hanger ( no wind , concrete floor) testing my A7r with a wide variety of lenses and adapters. The reality is that the vibration is dependent upon a number of variables: mass of lens, orientation of camera body, how you anchor the camera to the tripod( I.e.camera body, lens ring, adapter foot), and finally shutter speed. It is not simple. I would encourage each person to test their various set ups, lenses, and a variety of shutter speeds. Is there shutter shake…. YES! But not noticeable in many circumstances, and very detrimental in others. I have plenty of well done tests to show it is so, and so do many others. But I know which of my lenses/adapter combinations are problematic, and at what shutter speeds. The counter weight on the bottom of the camera is a must in certain situations. For the canon TSE 17 and 24mm with a Metabones attached to the tripod head via the Metabones foot….the images are excellent at any shutter speed ( in both vertical and horizontal orientation)… If you only saw those tests you would say ” shutter shake is not an issue”. As a professional photographer I demand the most out of my equipment. I am often called to print 40x 50 inch prints and I want to deliver the best I can. It is part of what makes me a professional. Each person has to determine their threshold of acceptability.
I think some readers need to reread Joe’s well written article. I know Joe personally and he is one of the most meticulous and knowledgable people I have meet in 40 years of making images. Do I think there is a fundamental problem with this camera design? Yes. Am I going to send the camera back,? No. Because I have spent the time and effort to know what it is capable of and how I will use it. Am I selling my 800e, or P45? No, they each serve a specific purpose. I think the A7r is a good camera that needs some imrovement.
It is very fair to conclude that we are confronted with an issue of technique and learning to optimize the use of one’s gear vs. a meaningful hardware ‘problem’
These ‘problems’ are essentially manufactured for the sake of interesting conversation… which is fine.
But too many armchair photoraphers fantasize that somehow their personal skill cannot possibly be adequately served by a flawed and ‘inferior’ machine.
They like to crow about how this issue or that lacking feature makes a camera unacceptable. It is sad to see.
I enjoy a fun conversation about engineering and the joys of camera testing but sadly these things can grow into a cancer. It has begun.
I tested what I felt would be common camera setups for the A7R: 35mm, 85mm with adapter and 70-200mm with adapter. lloyd says the 50mm is vulnerable so I think the ranges I choose are justified.
I tested shutter vibration with a tripod mount and even resting on a firm table. Theoretically shutter vibration is not zero, the question is whether it’s visually acceptable and within “industry” standards. In my tests the results were better than acceptable, they were downright difficult or impossible to detect (200mm was very slightly noticeable).
Your counter weight is an interesting idea. I wonder though if it is correcting for a poor union in the lens collar or tripod attachment. I’m not implying you have poor equipment, I’m very aware that equipment can have issues and odd behaviors, no matter what the price.
I would be the first to jump on the band wagon of disappointment and cry out to Sony that something needs to be done. Your argument that I didn’t test enough conditions could be turned around to you and stated that you didn’t define how you know it’s shutter vibration? Do you have an image to compare it to that has no shutter vibration? Can you be absolutely 100% certain that what you are looking at is shutter vibration? You might ask, what else could it be? It could be the tripod, the collar, or the mount. It could even be microscopic settling of the adapter. Highway traffic nearby can cause an imperceptible vibration. Were you walking around while the shutter was released, a seismometer will detect it, if you are thinking it doesn’t matter.
I’m saying there are so many variables that can cause problems the burden is on you to prove those variables are not impacting your results. None of the experts have done that. They show me a picture and say “There’s the shutter vibration.” What? How do you know it’s shutter vibration?
Useless for macro
In french we say f..ing a fly
I’ve tested with the Nikon micro-nikkor 60mm AF-D in Macro Mode and apart the smoothing in JPEG mode, I do not see any issue.
Test has been made at 1/50, 1/100 and 1/200
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guidetti/sets/72157638979347113/
Raw files can be downloaded with the following links
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10741875/Test%20Sony%20A7r%20raw/DSC00688.ARW
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10741875/Test%20Sony%20A7r%20raw/DSC00689.ARW
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10741875/Test%20Sony%20A7r%20raw/DSC00690.ARW
Sorry to spoil the fun, but the A7r does have shutter vibration issues with shorter focal lengths. It’s not limited to longer focal lengths.
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20131221_4-SonyA7R-aseries-55f1_8-CreekFindsItsWay.html
Would a telephoto lens support bracket solve the problem?
ex.http://www.rahsoft.net/m293_bracket/images/bracket1a.jpg
Imatests on lenses above 135mm show there is (without a doubt) shutter blur.
Several established and esteemed reviewers have demonstrated this again and again.
Jim Kasson, Diglloyd, and many others
As well, Sony’s lossy compression causes artifacts, noise and poor tonal transitions.
The camera was rushed to market to meet the 2013 XMAS season. After a few days most of these cameras will be rushed back to the sellers.
Yeah for people who shoots and pixel peep at 1100%, this camera sucks! LMAO
Actually the compression artifacts are exaggerated at smaller viewing sizes not larger. But keeping saying stupid things without thinking first, it’s really endearing, I’m sure.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1259184/1
artifacts at 11x magnification. . . .
I agree to Ken, because the described problem only appears in a few situations.
Nothing is perfect, this also applies for the A7(R).
Seems like sony as a new, mighty and threatening competitor on the camera market is being watched in an extraordinary way.
But also the big pro manufacturers have their problems.
I really like what i saw, read and heard about the A7R. And this shutter thing isnt a problem you couldnt solve by yourself with little effort.
Many people never notice these sort of issues so I don’t think there will be a mass return, but, definitely the fine art types who scrutinize images will not be satisfied. It’s unfortunate as the response from Sony thus far seems to indicate they have no intention of trying to address the problems, especially since things like the compression problem appear in other NEX cameras.
Oh well!
Zachery, I thought you sent your A7R back and that you were returning to the world of Fuji because of your disappointment with Sony. Are you trolling today?
Zachery made this statement on December 21 “A7-A7R Tests” if you want to check me for accuracy.
Fact-checking slam!
Pretty happy with mine..I’m keeping it…LOL, if it sucks that bad go back to what you had because apparently that wasn’t good enough either!
Lol.
LOL
Could they introduce true RAW in a firmware upgrade? Any idea if EFC shutter can be added as a firmware option as well (perhaps with limitations on top shutter speed when in that mode)?
Much kudos to all the work the author did! Great contribution to our community. Ingenious use of the accelerometer!
1) I do see blur of one or two pixels, actually, although I would consider that insignificant. It is still a bit embarrassing for Sony, I would think, to have graphs like these out, even if it does not really affect the image quality.
2) Since the vibration is along the length of the lens, I assume the effect will be greater with longer lenses, since the blur comes primarily from focus shift. Some lenses may resonate more with the vibration as well, and amplify it.
3) The weight-no-weight comparison of the original article probably makes for a better comparison, since lighting, ISO, and exposure time can all affect contrast, and hence perceived blur.
Author writes “with strobes” and 10 sec exposure.
Those conditions compensate out any possible shutter blur as strobe exposure is very short, cancelling all but the strongest motion blur + and any shutter vibration time is short to significantly affect a 10sec exposure.
My point is – author’s statements can’t in any possible way prove the shutter vibration issue doesn’t exist.
The point is that you didn’t read or didn’t understand the article. The strobe shots are the reference shots (without blur). The hot light shots are supposed to test for blur and tgen compare.
I’m not understanding the conclusion of “non-issue” when the article’s 200mm 1/100 image shows the shutter motion blur rather clearly.
“with strobes” that’s enough
Enough to show that schools indeed fail to teach reading comprehension and logics.
The strobe shots are the reference shots (for no shutter blur).
Barry READ the article and not just whine! I am in the middle of doing similar tests with even longer lens than this. It will take sometime.
I really think this Ferrel McCollough test is GOOD.
Sorry whiners you got to find something else to complain on? Maybethe wheather or youre spouse is in a bad mood…. Find something.
He didn’t read the article probably because the admin posted a conclusion without an effective arguement. Personally I certainly felt no urge to read the article after reading only the post above because it seemed that the author who made the conclusion didn’t even read the previous report through, as the previous report clearly stated that for lenses under 85mm, the issue is negligible.
If the conclusion above mentioned anything about the 200mm test at all, things would’ve been very different.
Its quite legit as Lloyd says it exists with the FE 55 as well
Where is the test with and without strobe on a 500 mm lens mounted to a tripod via a tripod collar at 1/100 second exposure.
Please refer me to that part since I must not have read that.
From the original article that seems to be the only condition that is both severe and testable.
I also based my assesment that the E MOUNT SYSTEM is not a good choice for wildlife, sports, long lenses and macro lenses on the systems
Lack of ibis
Lack of compatability with a mount
Lack of long and macro lenses.
The shutter vibration issue actually played no part in my assesment.
Is IBIS necessary for wildlife and sports, and even macro? I thought when using a tripod (or monopod) that IBIS should be turned off.
I shoot handheld with 500 mm an macro.
Tripods are not always practical and stabililization is even more important in the situations I described.
Rememper …by far the biggest cause of unsharp pictures is camera movement.
So yes image stabilization is very very very important.
You can always get a proper lens with image stabilization built in. The way that God intended.
Your Sigma 180mm / 2.8 macro awaits.
You can get on your soapbox and preach use a tripof all you want but most photographs will not be taken with tripods and those photographers still want good picyures.
And whatever entity gave us oss did not deem sony A mount users worthy..
Instead it was ordained that A mount users shall sudsist with IBIS.
And it came to pass that Sony shall forsake IBIS and LOYAL A MOUNT USERS and fall into the E mount underworld.
(That was a parody of your religiouse comment an is not intended in any maner to be a religeous statement)
Barry,
For the sorts of shots you’re talking about what you need is a D800 and a 500/4 VR, 600/4 VR or a 800/5.6 VR. Or a 5D3/1D X with a 500/4 IS, 600/4 IS, 800/5.6 IS. With lenses around 500mm the body size difference between mirrorless and DSLRs is insignificant. Also, in-lens stabilisation beats in-body stabilisation (and A-mount) because the user and AF both benefit greatly from a stabilised viewfinder.
The solution to your problem is out there and people have been taking these sorts of photos for a very long time. The question is what are you doing here splitting hairs and whining about some camera not made for your purposes?
Not quite the right solution for me.
The D800 is still only 36mp and i am waiting for more.
I already have good. A mount macro lenses.
I plan to repace my current 50-500 with the Tamron 150-600 which base on the mtf charts seems very good for center sharpness particularly at 600mm.
My funds are limited so cost and wieght make a really long prime not a good investment for me unless I sell a lot more artwork.
Finally I have been saying for a long time what I want Sony to make…
If they actually make what I ask for I want to be able to buy it.
Merry Xmas.
P.S.
The combination of the lenses I have/will have plus an A mount or hybrid. 54MP x 3 layer stacked sensor camera would make me very happy.
Include z shift focus/macro focus and 5 axis ibis…paradise….
I dont care about compact,video,gps,internet or any other bells and whistles……just a camera that takes really sharp high resolution pictures.
I’ve been on forums long enough to know that people who wait will keep waiting for ever. Back in the days of 21MP 1Ds3, everyone said 21MPs were too much. I doubt your requirements back then were also a 54×3 layer sensor. In other words, you subconsciously evolve your requirements beyond what is currently available.
My question to you is which body do you shoot with now? Will an a7r give worse image quality than what you have?
A77 and A65.
Want the new tech 54mp so I will not buy a smaller step up because I wonthave any money when the right one comes out.
E Mount is not compatanle with my A mount system so is out of the guestion.
The only interem camera I might buy as a fill in while I wait is 36mp c if one comes outvand is not expensive.
I cant buy another camere every time sony makes a small change I need to get the right camera even if it unfortunately means waiting.
If “value” is the issue, it means you need to take more sellable photos, isn’t it? 😉 You can cover up your upgrade costs that way. That’s what pros do.
If you don’t like selling photos and you’re this passionate about gear and upgrading, put this time you spend on forums in to a second job. Don’t tell me being here is a better use of your time? 🙂
Makes me wonder how they loved without stabilization for so many years.
Yes,IS should be turned off when using a tripod.
Andrea, watch your title “virbation”
WTF!?!?? Again with problems that are not existing? There are always a lot of people coming out with excuses to troll and/or throw shit at something they don’t like.
Almost every camera vibrates because of the shutter (RX1 doesn’t feel like, for example): damn, the NEX6 sounds like a tank and slam like an A900! (Exaggerating on purpose here!).
Just go out and take pics instead of rotten your brain with non existing problems: soft videos of the A99, soft videos here and there, moire patterns seen only by somebody, the A7R is junk and just a toy because doesn’t work well with lenses NOT design for it, SLT is crap because it blocks light, Sony must give us a camera with OVF otherwise us photographers will not buy it (us photographers?!?!? who’re you? The almighty God?)… What the hell!
Use the product as it should be and amazing results will come out no matter what: don’t accuse the product for you being unable to get the best out of it.
If you don’t like a product, don’t buy it.
It’s as simple as that.
Spare me with all these annoying junk and useless discussions; of course some of you will think “don’t read it” and I’ll respond “I just skipped reading SAR since all this started days ago”.
Today I just couldn’t keep it in anymore.
So: if I’ve offended somebody I do apologize, I’m just trying to point out how useless these discussions are and how stupid they tend to become.
Nobody is never gonna notice anything as nobody as never ever noticed (the maybe present) same (invented, because is not affecting photography anyway) problem in other cameras brands.
This is just my humble stupid little point of view…
P.S.
I know I’m gonna get a lot of shit for this, but I don’t care…
P.P.S.
I wish a warm “shutter induced vibration” Merry Xmas and the best 2014 ever to everybody (I mean it!)
+1
If you feel this is ridiculous, wait till you see the “issue” regarding the compression artifacts
+100
The compression one is completely unbearable to read. Sony should recall the cameras from those people. “Sorry… Your A7r goes to someone else. That is all”
It has become even better now!
People whining and saying bullshit like: can’t shoot macro! Hahahahahahaha
It makes laugh so hard!!!
I’ve been shooting thousands of macro with my A900 without any issue at all: and that camera has a nice mirror slap.
The crappy pics that I took it was because of me, not beasue of the tool being used…LOL
Wait until that great picture you made is ruined by a ‘non-existing’ problem like shutter vibration. It’s a very real problem and I don’t understand people that deny it. I tried an Olympus E-M1 and several shots taken with ‘safe settings’ were ruined by shutter vibration. It’s just very disappointing you can’t rely on your camera, especially when you pay so much for a tool.
Amazing. First that lossy compression non-issue, now this. How ridiculous is it going to get?
bitchin like flap dumpster
That’s it. Today is the day I’m removing SAR from my favorites. Way too many “I’m God and this camera is not up to my own personal fat expectations”
Ciao guys. It’s been pleasant for a while.
AT
Admin
You have an extreme website spam problem with google pop up registraton on android cellphones.
Google takes us out of sar and onto a google account registration page every few minutes when we are on the comment pages.
+1000000
On Android phones, spam pop ups keep redirecting and automatically opening the Google play store in an effort to get you to downplays various apps. Please fix
*download
I’m on a Samsung Note 3 and I’ve never had such issues via Chrome or the ‘Internet’ browser.
Shutter vibration is a huge issue for macro work, to the point where an electronic first curtain is REQUIRED for 1:1 or greater magnification. One of the reasons I bought a NEX camera was because of this EFCS, and it’s worrying that Sony seems to feel it’s no longer necessary in one of their top bodies. This is particularly true since with the highest resolution sensor the A7r stands to benefit the most from an electronic first curtain.
read ‘just me’ comment, it’s likely a technological limitation for now.
Non issue, Please move along, don’t mind this huge Z Axis spike!
If you will use the camera for producing prints bigger than 17×22 then it’s an issue. I had the camera for a week and returned it because of this issue. Without any doubt I saw shutter vibration around 1/100th, albeit it was only visible at 100% and it was not that significant. All Sony had to do was include EFCS and any issues of vibration could be solely blamed on the photographer. But I don’t have the mental energy for “Was it me or was it the camera”.
I love Sony, and love my a99, I wanted to love this camera. Maybe Sony can work on some new firmware to deal with this issue. If they do I will order the camera again.
read ‘just me’ comment, it’s likely a technological limitation for now and maybe a firmware fix would solve it or maybe should just use a faster shutter speed.
I applaud those who have invested their time doing these tests – Thank You. Always good to keep the pressure on the manufacturers/marketing departments to keep evolving, doing better.
I certainly was able to get very good macro photos with micronikkors and medical nikkors back in the day…as with Kodachrome and Nikon SLRs. Might have to get app used here and check out some of the old film SLRs to see just impossible that was.
The whole story is nothing more than FUD. I said it before already. And the same probably goes for the compression artifacts “issue”.
No it isn’t.
As related to my previous post about film SLRs, I downloaded the app and strapped iphone on a Minolta xE7 and a Contax RTSII. Compared them to NEX5N with and without elec front curtain on. Shot at 1/60 and 1/125. Both SLRs have vertically running metal shutters and results are essentially the same as A7r, and the NEX5N virtually identical to NEX7 results. Only slightly more vibration w/o elec front curtain. The Z-axis is the vertical axis, the direction of the shutter and mirror movements. No big deal…interesting app regardless.
The exclusion of the EFCS is unavoidable side effect of the 36mp sensor. Whether it’s because of the MP count, or by design choice, the sensor doesn’t seem to have that capability. EFCS requires both sensor and shutter to work synchronously.
Did you guys read this? Looks like DickyLoad has commented on his perfect flawless testing being so superior. Posted on twitter
Lloyd Chambers @diglloyd 18h
MORONS have their place in the world. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/a7r-shutter-virbation-is-a-non-issue-test-by-ferrell-mccollough/ …
That was totally uncalled for, calling people a moron I mean
Diglloyd: Your ego is much to big and you are to childish to be a scientist. If you start using my “No shutter vibration image” in your comparison then you have to eat your trash talk but if you don’t, your tests will remain flawed. What will you do?
Well, at least, Lloyd Chambers knows how to spell three letter words, and much more, so that would instantly make him a lot more credible than those who can’t spell three letter words in the English language!
Your reply is useless especially with all the brilliant people on the net writing in english as a second language. Also, if you bothered to read Lloyd’s blog you’d see typos and grammatical errors as well: “Olympus offers an anti shake mode on the E-M1 and E-M5 cameras which my understanding is does exactly the above.”
Whats with the ads on the top of the page for hot asian singles? I mean, their hot, but doesn’t really fit the forum. And they all look the same. Kinda like a lot of the comments lately.
This is nothing new. The ads are based on what you view on other sites. I.e. in your case… well we all know.
And if they all look the same it’s probably because you have a low IQ.
Exactly, ha, ha, ha! You don’t want to know what’s on my pages.
Well, very tripod and lens set up IS different, so some are getting vibration where others are not seeing any resolution loss. Lloyd needs to recognise this.
I also think it is absurd to suggest the existence of vibration issues at some focal lengths for some people at some shutter speeds a show stopper, period. As much as I respect Lloyd’s testing he does not represent everyone’s interests, nor is he a professional photographer himself. I think its therefore better if he ceases telling real pros what his test results mean to them. I think we can figure it out for ourselves….
LOL Somebody claiming the same issue with the Leica M240.
Sony and now Leica do not know how to make a camera! I’m appalled.
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20131025_1-LeicaM240-shutter-vibration.html
It seem that Leica in his customers has also a fringe of fly’s fuckers.
My understanding tells me, that Sony could possibly offer an EFCS together with the A7r, but, but not with the very short exposure time of 1/8000s.
They could offer an EFCS down to 1/500s, and a mechanices first shutter from 1/500 – 1/8000s.
This would solve ALL issues! 🙂
Non issue with a 35mm – huge issue with a 135mm or 200mm
Just got my a7r before a trip with the family…I’ve only shot the camera twice thus far but being the pixel-peeper that I am, always looking for sharper lenses and camera sensors, I can say there is an issue at shutter speeds at 1/125 and slower. At 1/160, I didn’t notice any loss of quality. Blur that comes from slow shutter speeds while handheld look different to me than shutter vibration…and this is definitely shutter vibration. Still, the sharp images look great. I’ll just have to keep the camera on the “S” mark instead of Aperture Priority, using speeds 1/160 and faster while handheld.
PS…I am shooting with the Sony/Zeiss FE 24-70 f/4 that came out shortly after this camera did. I have seen reviews where people using the 35 f/2.8 and 55 f/1.8 prime don’t see the issue.