DxOmark (Click here) just published the full Sony A7r sensor test. And according to their measuresand ranking system the camera scores the same points as the Nikon D800-D800E (and that for $500 less). And it literally kicks the Canon5DIII in the butt (DxO comparison here). This is what DxO writes about the A7r:
“Although we can’t provide any commentary on image sharpness at this stage in our tests, the sensor in the Sony Alpha 7R performs exceptionally and is on a par with that found in the D800 models. Given the Sony’s small size, low weight and outstanding sensor performance, it’s one of the most intriguing and compelling new additions in recent times.”
And here are more brand new A7r tests:
Cameras.reviewed published their first impression review:
“At first glance, it’s really hard to find fault with the package Sony has put together. Admittedly, the company’s lens roadmap is very ambitious, and Sony has a spotty track record when it comes to actually getting its high-profile releases on store shelves. But if the launch goes smoothly and the A7s are well-received, Sony has a real chance to steal Canon and Nikon’s thunder.”
Sony A7R vs Nikon D800: which full-frame camera should you buy? (Digitalcameraworld):
“It’s easy to scoff at a comparison of a new, as-yet-unproven full-frame mirrorless interchangeable lens camera and a full-frame DSLR that has set the benchmark for sensor performance.
However, it becomes less of a laughing matter when you consider that the Sony A7R delivers the same sensor resolution of the Nikon D800, but in a camera body that’s cheaper and easier to carry (with the right lens), and comes with a wealth of tech that makes it easy to take and share photos.”
What We’re Finding Wrong With the Sony A7 and A7r So Far (ThePhoBlographer):
“When it comes to focus peaking, the accuracy isn’t perfect. Unfortunately, when we use full auto focusing, spot focusing zone, multi, etc. And based on the way that someone would compose a scene, the focusing can be hit or miss. Metering: we’ve found that the system underexposes by a full stop. We’ve been using the A7r a lot. It’s by far our favorite for the image quality that it can deliver when you nail the image absolutely perfectly. However, nailing that image is tougher because the sensor amplifies the slightest issue (such as camera shake) and any other problem by ten fold. We almost feel like anything we do with it requires a tripod.“
New A7r image samples can be seen at CameraLabs.
Specs and Preorders in US and Canada (Click on store name to see direct preorder page):
Dedicated Sony announcement page at Amazon US (Click here).
Sony A7r body at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS. TheCameraStore Canada.
Sony A7 body at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS. TheCameraStore Canada.
Sony A7 with 28-70mm kit lens at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS. TheCameraStore Canada.
Sony RX10 at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Zeiss 24-70mm at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Zeiss 35mm at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Zeiss 55mm at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
70-200mm A-mount at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Sony A-Mount to E-Mount Lens Adapter at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto.
Sony A to E adapter with mirror at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto.
A7/A7r leather case at Amazon, Adorama, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
A7/A7r vertical grip at Amazon, BHphoto, SonystoreUS.
Sony W Series Battery Charger at Amazon, BHphoto.
Sony FA-CS1M Off-Camera Shoe at BHphoto.
Semi-Hard LCD Screen Protector for A7-A7r at Amazon, BHphoto.
Specs and Preorders in Europe:
Sony A7r body at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE.
Sony A7 body at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE, Amazon UK, Amazon DE, Amazon FR.
Sony A7 with 28-70mm kit Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE, Amazon UK, Amazon DE, Amazon FR.
Sony RX10 at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT, WexUK, WexDE.
Zeiss 35mm at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT,
Zeiss 55mm at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT
Asia:
A7r at Digitalrev
A7 at Digitalrev.
A7 with 28-70mm lens at Digitalrev.
144 Responses
As expected it is exactly the same sensor used on the D800 from 1 year ago, never believe in marketing talk of a newly designed sensor, Likewise the A7 use the same sensor from the A99.
True, a variation of the same sensor was expected.
You re the real Vlad or the DxO hater of last nite :D?
The real one 🙂 I may not be a fan of DXO’s ratings, but I do think they have a lab.
CaNikon fanboys are in shock!!!
Be careful in reading the numbers. It is not a question of DOX hater or lover.
Yeah, even Vlad is skeptical. Those numbers are as scientific as the measure of the smell of my feet 🙂
The overall score is a bit of a waste of time but the data recorded and shown in the respective graphs is very useful in determining how your camera will perform in relation to other models.I have found an excellent correlation between their observations and reality on all the digital cameras I own or have owned.
Just a reminder to everyone: What’s the statistical significance of measuring a sample of 1? (as it would seem DXOmark does). They even mention the difference between the D800E and the a7R is well within measurement error. So the a7R could, on average, be better than the D800E. It’s that close. And also that inconclusive.
I don’t think anybody ever seriously doubted that the underlying sensor was the same. What is different, and also what Sony has said, is the microlens design which is essentially the top layer of the sensor (disregarding any UV and IR cut filters) which has to be different out of necessity due to the much sorter distance between the rear element and the sensor resulting in a very different angle of incidence between the light hitting the sensor and the plane of the sensor.
I agree. I am happy that just after 2 years we can have the excellent D800 sensor in a tiny package. Infact, I am so convinced about the Sony-Nikon collusion that I am looking at Nikon rumors first before SAR- to get a glimpse of what can be expected 1-2 years from now. 😉
Curiously enough, here in Panama, Sony reps told me the a7R has the same sensor as D800
I’m hoping the A7 rates better than the A99 for low light (A99 ranks #18 at DX0 Mark.. the Nikon D600 ranks at #2)
Will definitely be better as there is no translucent mirror in the way.
That’s fast! Usually it takes a few months before new cameras get a DxO rating. I hope we’ll see the rating for the A7 soon.
And the ratings look good (although some people will complain about the fact that it isn’t better than the Nikon D800(E), the top 2 cameras in the DxO dbase!).
I must admit Eddy at the risk of being labeled a moaner 🙂 I bought my D800 18 months ago. I had hoped the A7r would have been a wee bit better. Not to worry we will just have to settle for excellent 🙂
I am Happy with this. With that amount of money you get yourself the mighty D800 IQ.
Using the same sensor does not always mean get the same score or IQ. Remember A99 uses the same sensor as D600, with a tweak by Nikon, its DXOmark score gets higher than A99.
I still believe A7r will have slightly better IQ than D800E, especially once they release the production model.
The A99 has an SLT mirror in the way which affects the score.
You won’t need a wagon to carry the Sony around.
Well the A7R plus adapter { assuming you want a wide range of lenses in the next year or so this will be most peoples choice } weighs in at approx 670g the D800 weighs in at 320g more so I don’t think I will be needing a wagon :-). You sound like one of the mFT fans who are nearly all, apparently either weak, ill, elderly or just lazy and find extra weight almost unbearable:-)according to them FF kit weighs the same as a pick up 🙂
The lack of native lens choice means that for most current FF users we will be using our current lenses on an adapter with the A7r/a7. meaning my whopping weight gain will be exactly the 330g. There are other reasons to want these cameras , for Canon guys they can access a higher MP sensor,for us Nikon guys I am looking forward to using an EVF for fast live view /video AF and so on.
My Nex 6 weighs 346g and I’d be doubling the weight with 7A and going half again for D800.
I’m not a mft fan, not weak, not ill, not elderly, not lazy.
After hiking for 15 miles a D800 might get heavy and is a bad choice that represents over 600g gain over my nex 6, except for fellows that think they are strong like you. 😉
I have a complete collection of Contax RTS lenses and prefer to focus the little gems myself.
Woah… nice way to group everyone in the same bag this way.
I have an OM-D and I am in love with the camera (size weight and IBIS are killer features) the only problem is the tiny tiny sensor. I always said that would buy a FF OM-D.
And weight does affect when traveling. My OM-D I can have a small backpack with 3 or 4 lenses, battery, grip and everything. Impossible with big DSLRs.
Just because you want to carry the weight of it all when traveling doesnt mean that I do or that I am lazy or weak. Seems to me you are trying to overcompensate for something here.
interested in A7-score…
me too, too much focus on the A7r IMO. come on….lets see some analysis of the A7 for us poor people 🙂
Most probably same as D600/RX1
93-94pts
+1. I’m also guessing the A7 should score around 93-95. There has been way too much emphasis on the A7R. I still trying to find a decent review of the A7 and kit lens.
+1
+1
+1
+1 here too
+1
+1
So do I — Hoping to see the score of A7 !
No surprise to me 🙂
Hope that Adobe will soon add RAW support to Lightroom/Camera Raw.
Not the exact same lensor, because of the offset microlens array but the new A mount one with the SLT mirror should use the “normal” one.
So what kind of scores the organic sensors are going to achieve? 115?
Funny, Steve Huff was able to get great in focus shots on moving targets in a low light environment without a tripod.
You have to realise that, despite the website’s name, ThePhoBlographer don’t seem to be much good at photography. Perhaps just TheBlographer would be more accurate.
So, this what it take- have a blog- to access all the finest photo gear before they are even released? The idiots who practice photography!!
Actually the thephoblographer has it right, A7r really needs a tripod for best results.
Why would it be any different then the D800/e. The reason why I sold my D800/e tripod and only the best lenses were a must or your wasting your money. I ended up with an A99 I am happy and anxiously awaiting the A7 not the R
Thephoblographer dude needs either coffee or a bowl of hot Pho for sure.
I mean look at the images that they took with the Otus here
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/10/30/quick-samples-sony-a7r-zeiss-55mm-f1-4-otus/
They reminds me of some images that I took long time ago when I just started to hold a camera and learn how to take picture
my thoughts exactly
No, he doesn’t need coffee – that would only make his hands more shaky.
I think he was using the A7 not the R. He seams pretty impressed by both cameras, a little more with the cheaper A7
there was a time where user can comment on his site and all the comment was telling that his a good blogger but not a good photographer.
‘However, nailing that image is tougher because the sensor amplifies the slightest issue (such as camera shake) and any other problem by ten fold. We almost feel like anything we do with it requires a tripod.’
Haha, yeah that’s why you only get blurry photos with APS 16mp which is the same pixel density as FF 36mp. And 24mp APS is even worse, totally unusable for any practical purpose!
I agree that entire statement by the PhoBlographer is really really bad! no actually it is scary bad. how in the world could a higher pixel density amplify anything?! It is the higher magnification due to the fixed pixel density of your screen Mr PhoBlographer! (I can’t believe that that this comes from a successful photography blog wtf?)
pixelpeeping at it’s worst!
That dude needs to stay off coffee and other inebriating stuff. LOL.
No, the statment of phobolgrapher is absolutly correct. For sure a hihger pixel densitiy at a given format in reliance of the focal lenght needs more accuracy. IF you want to use the higher resolution.
If not why are you interested in a 36mp cam?
no. it doesn’t amplify anything. it just makes it easier to reveal stuff at 1:1. that’s all. which should convince him he needs practice. there is nothing wrong with the camera.
Makes you curious as to how Steve Huff can get stunningly beautiful images with the same camera and manual focus lenses?
How does that compute with the PhoBlographer’s comments?
My Nex-6 must be broken, I get nice in focus photos?
Please advise as to what I am doing wrong with my 16 MP sensor camera.
Wait, never mind.
Actually, although the Phoblographers statement is an exaggeration, I find I do need higher shutter speeds in lower light to get good results from my D800E vs my D600. It would not surprise me in the slightest if the A7r is exactly the same.
Guys, I held the camera (7R) in my hands. Tried to take 10 pictures of my 6 year old, got only one without blur. It is very real. It was my impression that there is a delay from the moment you press to the moment the shutter completes the cycle. It seems REALLY slow. Very disappointing.
Sony rep told me the 7 has electronic shutter but the 7R doesn’t. However the 7 was just as bad.
This is why I wouldn’t blame it on the sensor.
You sure you put your name right? Isn’t it supposed to be “Grandpa” ?
Perhaps you can enlighten us with the make and model of the lenses, ISO, aperture and speed settings as well as the pics, so we can judge for ourselves what you mean?
The lens was the Zeiss 55 @ 2.8. Shot in Aperture priority. I set the ISO to AUTO. I honestly don’t remember what it did with shutter speed and what it set the ISO to. My expectation is that it would be quick enough not to smear my pics. Since it was at the show I couldn’t keep the pictures. I understand you may be skeptical, but I am offering my honest feedback. I think what I’m saying is backed up by the comments suggesting this camera is best used on a tripod. You go ahead and make your purchasing decisions. I am waiting for the next iteration. Living with a NEX-7 is not a crappy life.
You do risk getting blurrier (smudged details) photos, the higher the level of detail (megapixels.), depending on shutter speed.
A 1cm sensor of 36MP, would have the same risk as a sensor of 30cm at 36MP.
It’s not how small the pixels are, but how many are crammed into the image area.
I knew it, not that this is a bad thing the d800 sensor is a very good sensor and for the price of the A7r nod bat at all. but I never believed that this was a completely new sensor.
I am still torn in buying one of those cameras for street photography (usually in low light/night):
-AF on the A7 seems much sweeter with the hybrid system.
-Low ISO on the A7r for sure is much higher and cleaner.
Also just to add to the mix I have an OM-D which I mainly use with a Pana20 so the focus isnt terribly fast. With other lenses though it flies.
Anyone care to explain what would I be getting or missing?
well I’m really bad with af, I just hate it. It doesn’t focus intuitively where I want it to and there is always lag. with mf there is no lag, you focus and then you release. of course the focusing takes time but it is separate from releasing.
for me not even the fastest focus is fast enough (or at least that’s how it feels for me) the only thing that would help me was continuous eye tracking (my eye, the one that is looking through the viewfinder or at the lcd, not the subjects eye!) with release priority.
with the om-d the touch focusing/releasing kind of works or at least feels like it works (especially also with the 20/1.7, it actually seems to work better with that lens than in normal focus mode).
the problem with mft and mf is that most lenses (at least the shorter lenses) do not have a shallow enough depth of field for mf and focus by wire isn’t ideal in many cases. I also use a 50/1.2 with an adapter and mf works quite well but only after some practicing.
so since af with the A7r and the A7 isn’t better than with the om-d (maybe better than the om-d with the 20, which is really really bad (worse than with my gf1 in low light!) I guess you won’t gain anything af wise, but if you use mf, you can use a 35/2 or even the 2.8 and with the better viewfinder and peaking mf should be easier (this is just an educated guess, since I obviously haven’t had the chance to try a A7/r). So what is for sure, if you use a 50/1.2 on the sony mf will be really usable (since it already works with the om-d e-m5 and that viewfinder/lcd is not as good as the one on the sony) and you have a 50mm equivalent angle of view not a 100mm angle of view if that’s what you want.
ah and yes, don’t forget about the very noisy shutter from the sony! that migth be kind of a big deal.
the rx1 would be the better solution for street, but it is quite expensive and you can’t change lenses, so if this is your only camera you’re quite limited.
The shutter is noticeable but not awful when you have your eye on the EVF but someone a couple of metres away wouldn’t hear it.
If the A7 rates anything like the D600 (or A7r) then you should be missing a lot of noise at higher ISOs.
With all the rumors of these being new sensors, I’m a little surprised. So, these are the exact same sensors as the ones Nikon is using other than microlens design. I had a feeling this would be the case, but I really wanted to believe the hype SAR was pumping about these being new sensors.
c’mon for that price that’s not bad at all, and besides the d800 sensor is really really really good!
Oh, I agree, it’s still a great sensor, but I already have the D800E. It’s a mighty awesome camera. This revelation makes it harder to justify my A7r preorder. There are still good reasons to buy the A7r for us D800(E) owners, but the reasons are now less strong. Also, the fact that the shutter is loud and hand held focusing is a problem makes me consider switching the preorder to the A7 instead.
DxO Mark tests using RAW, not JPEG: http://www.dxomark.com/About/In-depth-measurements/Measuring-sensors-using-RAW-and-testing-lenses-on-cameras
There are subjective rules for ranking, but that is only the case if you look at the total score. If you are a portrait studio photographer, then focus on colour accuracy. If you are a landscape photographer, then focus on dynamic range. Those are objective measurements.
Sony is highly unlikelly to ever make a really new cmos sensor…just make small changes and call it new.
Cmos will soon be replaced by an all new technolgy….probably in 2015…putting a lot of money into a dead technolgy is a waste.
Sony is just buying time until then….they will however try out differrent new camera formats in 2015 so they know what kinds of cameras to put the new sensor in when it is ready.x
That should be try out new camera formats in 2014
Note If sony uses the same gapless microlens as the a7r on their new stacked sensor the result would be. Ff…108 actual mp in 3 layers…
If they add each layer like fovion they will claim it is 324mp.
DXO’s results are wrong, misleading or cooked & here’s the proof…
2746 ISO & 14.1 dynamic range per their camera comparison section.
2712 ISO & 14.4 dynamic range per their A7r article.
Which is it? Because it also changes the entire ranking of A7r compared to other cameras!!!!!!!
It is suspicious, but it doesn’t change the ranking. The overall score is 95 in both cases.
No, you’re wrong. The difference in dynamic range scores takes the A7r from #1 in the world down to about #8 in the world. It’s basically a difference of 1/2 a stop. It matters.
I am confused. Are you saying that the results are cooked, and if yes, how does that matter in practice? Or are you saying that the ranking is influenced by the cooked results, and if yes, how come that the A7r is ranking on position #2 and not #8 as you say?
maybe its just sample tolerance.
Admin, please correct your mistake. DO you even know how DXO tests sensors? They ONLY test RAW and never test JPEGS. And how could anyone? DXO normalizes all sensors by testing RAW and reducing to 8MP. The reason DXO tests RAW ONLY is why it COULD NEVER test any of Fuji X cameras with Xtrans sensor because they don’t have the technology. Please don’t write nonsense.
Robert Saltzman
I am not surprised about the DXO ranking. A D800E sensor in an M43 body, incredible really. I wouldn’t consider it for street shooting, handling it at the Expo, the shutter sound is too loud for candid shooting, pleasant sounding imho, but not a shutter for a street photographer. For anything else, the A7r will rock (except sports, of course)
Hey Mike, thank you for your cool articles on your site…. but I think you are exaggerating the shutter sound as being a problem almost. I tried the A7R and A7 this weekend and the A7R does sound louder than my old NEX-3 or the Leica M9. Fair enough though, the Leica M is less loud. Also I could barely feel the shutter go off. The A7 sounded like the NEX-7 because of the EFC, maybe a teeny tiny louder, but insignificant difference.
fair enough, spaceman. thank you. once you have your A7 or A7r i invite you to join me for a street photo walk in the Bronx, of course we will split up and meet up after two hours. You shooting the A7 with the insignificant shutter sound, me shooting with the GR. I wish you luck, my friend.
Can I come with my Rx1?
sure, you buy the beers though, that camera is silent, disqualified 😉
Speaking of street photography… one thing I’d miss with the A7 is a long, 200mm, f2.8 AF lens. I guess maybe I’d need to use an Alpha mount and LA-EA4 adapter…
+1. for me its not a 200mm but a 135mm f2
my wish list for future lenses – if I take the ones into account that already exist
135mm f2 OSS it would be huge but thats okay
i really want a 24 105mm – just find the range on the 24 70mm insufficient but I guess I have to live with it for now
i’ll take the 55mm for sure
and let us have a 17-40mm f4 🙂 and I’will be set
in addition I am going to try the Rokinon 14mm
You can use any camera, of any size, with any shutter sound for street. I’ve taken many, many thousands of street photos in NYC with the D800 (and D4, D3s, 1Dsii and 5D). Shutter speed is generally limited by fear of motion blur more than by camera shake.
It’s true that a smaller camera would be less intimidating and lighter to carry. But the photographer is much more important than the equipment.
In addition to the quality of the sensors, these camera kill for lens choice, AF speed, low light shooting, controls, handling, etc. I would love to get some of these Sony’s as well, but I’m holding off at this point in time. I’m addicted to pro AF, especially with face recognition now. I would feel I was losing too many shots with MF or slower AF.
The D800 is a general purpose dslr. Sure its resolution would benefit from a good tripod, but so would any camera’s. But it’s important to use 1:2, not 1:1 for detail work to keep the flaws in the image in perspective, or you’ll drive yourself crazy.
If you don’t get this (sound) right, given that you claimed the A7R’s AF is faster than Nikon cams put you in danger of phoblo grade of bloggers!
lol, I will keep that in mind. Jesus, Hendrick, you are trying to scare me or what? 🙂
just to clarify, I never claimed that the A7r has better af then the D800E. I just stated the A7r/zeiss 55mm combo focuses faster then the D800e/50mm 1.4 combo- in good light.
Of course the shutter sound issue is very subjective, depending on how close you get to your subjects, background noise and so on….I like it silent, works best for my approach.
Perhaps that was not fair (to compare any photog to the phoblo dude). 🙂
i’ll survive, no worries, Hendrick
and the beers you can drink are on me for whoever can show me a candid shot of a similar street scenario taken with the A7 and not look like the subject matter afterwards 😉
http://www.mikekobal.com/blog/?p=9344
Now, now, don’t get carried away! 😉
I keep hearing this criticism: “the shutter is too loud for street shooting”, in an urban environment there is usually a considerable amount of ambient noise (automobile traffic, people shuffling around outdoors, music and crowd noise radiating out of bars and stores etc. Unless you have the camera less than three feet from someone ear, the shutter noise would just blend in with the background noise. In a church or other very quiet indoor environment it may be an issue, this theme is really being overplayed.
Why can’t A-mount get Low light ISO over 2000?
A7R – 2746 ISO
A99 – 1555 ISO
RX1R – 2537 ISO
That is seriously messed up in Alpha system.
Simple: The translucent mirror which is used for phase detect auto focus prevents some light coming through to the sensor. So it’s actually not the sensor which is the issue, but the light loss due to the construction of the system. When the a-mount goes mirrorless (like the A7, A7r) the results will be similar when similar sensors are used.
of course the mirror, that’s why the next alphas will all be fully mirrorless!
Admin said next Alpha is SLT. Not mirrorless.
A 25% difference equates less than 1/3 of stop in relation to ratings. Also DXO shoots and tests jpgs for many of the Sony model. I own the Rx1 and a99 and the ISO performance is indistinguishable.
To put this in perspective….
D800E = 2979 ISO
A7r = 2712 ISO
You’d have to multiply the difference between these ratings by 3 just to get 1/3 stop difference. OTH, 1/10 of a point different in the color depth or dynamic range is far more significant.
The ISO number is the one rating on here that you can take more with a grain of salt.
In fact, the A99’s ISO score is suspiciously low even considering the mirror. The mirror is supposed to take at most 1/2 stop, which is a factor of 1.4. So a modern FF sensor should still have a score around 2000 even with the mirror.
So can we look forward to these exact same sensors in the upcoming A-mount offerings in 2014?
If the 2014 high-end from Sony ends up being essentially an A99 with the (old) 36mp sensor in it, that they could have put in when the A99 was first released, I for one will be disappointed.
Check it out: Sonikon. If Nikon really is sinking because of their DSLR commitment and the shrinking market, and if Sony really does relatively suck at DSLR’s/DSLT’s, and if they are already sharing componentry and therefore having to write similar code for certain purposes, maybe they should join forces for the high-end body market, or at least deepen their existing behind-the-scenes collaboration.
That would be awesome but I don’t think it would happen but I would love it if nikon and sony became one.
If you notice at iso 25600 there is almost a full stop improvement compared with D800… It might be good news for Sony A7… where iso it might be usefull…
Lets not forget A7R ranks is #2 on Dxomark database. That’s second highest score in their database that includes all major cameras and even Medium Format cameras.
+10
what happen here is “NEVER ENOUGH” even it hit 200 point they still have another way to complaining about
Hello Andrea,
Beware of Vlad the DxO Hater( a wanker from hendrick the elder said ;), he wrote me last night in a previous post that DxOMark was a pointless site doing nothing but scientific tests 😉 and he would rather be more objective than them ;)….
Anyway seems like Sony Ax series is working very good and like i said last nite they will compete without doubt Canon and maybe Nikon SLR 😀
Uhm, just on a side note, that was some new Vlad 🙂
I think Ian is even a little thicker than Vlad.
“DxOMark was a pointless site doing nothing but scientific tests” i dont think its pointless doing scientific test reduce subjectivity and bias. they just have to execute it right
Why Sony did not put Hybrid detection on A7R instead of the same system than NEX series?
Who needs IBIS? Never had it in cameras for 100 years, why need it now? (Paraphrase of some idiots response to complaint about no IBIS in A7/r cameras.)
“However, nailing that image is tougher because the sensor amplifies the slightest issue (such as camera shake) and any other problem by ten fold. We almost feel like anything we do with it requires a tripod.”
Hmm, maybe IBIS would have been the right choice for Sony.
In any case, camera(s) are the wrong choice for anyone that takes pictures when anything might cause vibration. Like shutter or breathing.
Contrary to IBIS which can be solved with OSS lenses, will AF method not be more an issue for the A7R or once again the A7R is only for fully manual pro photographer?
Hmmm…is every Sony FE lens coming with OSS? Every third party lens? I wonder.
I recently moved from shooting a850 to Nikon d800e and I have noticed how much harder it is to get a sharp image with the d800e 36MP sensor AND without IBIS.
I use primes a lot (sigma 35f/1.4,Nikon 50f/1.4, Nikon 85G1.4, Zeiss 100/f2) that don’t offer any stabilization so I use a tripods when I can and a monopod to help keep things sharp and take advantage of the sensor……..A7r shooters will learn this too.
Perceived shake is not a camera issue.
This is simple the fact the you see the image larger at 100%. No different than the D800 at all. It really is not an issue as by the time it is used in print its not noticeable. I have learned to check sharps on the D800 at 50%. Otherwise everything looks a bit off when in fact it is perfectly acceptable.
Exposure and autofocus. Yeah Sony will need some firmware upgrades. But what camera doesn’t??
My only concern really is Moire. Will have a good close look when I get my hands on one…
Sounds like Sony needs a couple of iterations to get this right. For now, the Nikon D800 is the winner. The D610 looks like a winner too. Don’t know what direction Sony will go in the future, so no investment with them.
Looks pretty right to me, all within margin of measuring error. Which is good, considering the A7R employs fulltime live view = full time sensor read out (= more heat et al).
Wonder what firmware version DxO used?
OUCH ! ” When it comes to focus peaking, the accuracy isn’t perfect. Unfortunately, when we use full auto focusing, spot focusing zone, multi, etc. And based on the way that someone would compose a scene, the focusing can be hit or miss. However, nailing that image is tougher because the sensor amplifies the slightest issue (such as camera shake) and any other problem by ten fold. We almost feel like anything we do with it requires a tripod.“
OUCH ! It seems to me that the Olympus EM-1 is a clear winner for mrroirless this year ! Sony i’ll see you with your next generation when you will be able to get it right. Sensor size is not everything you know !
Yawn, $2000 for a 36mpixel Nex w/ no IBIS and a 1+ year old sensor and expensive/limited native lenses.. pass..
But some guy will stick some random fucking 15 year old zeiss on it “look how amazing it is!11 look at those pixelz!”
1 year old sensor? did you buy camera based on sensor age?
o yeah, buy your self a canon 4+ year 22MP & 18MP that score 60 point DXO, ooorrr wait for niko DF with 3+ years 16MP SONY Sensor.
did you have any idea how to build an “all new” Sensor?
ask canon why they using recycled sensor tech, and ask nikon why they never built their on sensor.
THIS IS a NEW SENSOR, not ALL NEW, they have to re design from the longest flange nikon mount to a short e mount flange plus microlenses, put faster ospdaf, etc.
and it WORK…
now they are runner up from THE BEST SENSOR IN THE UNIVERSE
Errmm…, slight correction there, Son, the best sensor in the universe is analogue. One such can be detected by looking in the mirror 🙂 !
Most people talking all this stuff about old sensor tech can’t even get the full value from a 8 year old digital sensor. I see such great work from so called old sensor tech. What more do people want, a actual organic eyeball in the camera? What really needs to be worked on is battery and lens tech.
“Man my A7R is so compact!! oh look at this, I better take a picture, let me set my tripod up and use focus peaking..oh wait… err… yes.. no… ”
Sounds like a great compact camera that you need a tripod for..
Its terrible the A7R is stuck with the best sensor ever put in a sub medium format camera .With fantastic DR ,colour depth and resolution well ahead of the competition.
For those of us who are able to take photos without IBIS I know its hard to believe but Canon and Nikon users {who hugely dominate the FF market} manage to take wonderful photos using a wide selection of primes with no kind of image stabilization.
If you can manage the other basic trick of manual focus you have access to pretty much every FF lens ever made by anyone.Value is a matter of opinion, I would never spend £1300 on a mFT body but plenty seem willing to do so with the E-M1.If by chance you actually want the very best from your camera any camera a tripod, critical focus,good metering are the way to go.This doesn’t mean that I cannot get excellent results from my D800 with a prime.
As for IBIS I think that while it helps in a few situations its value is hugely exaggerated. In fact take a shot with IBIS on and then try the same shot with the lens on a tripod the difference you see is the downside of IBIS.
Canikon AF far superior to any Sony, always has been.
Canikon AF points far more flexible and cover wider range than any Sony, always has been.
Canikon image processing far superior to any Sony, always has been.
Same sensor only means that anyone other than Sony wins. See any Pentax or Nikon that uses the same sensor as any Sony. Others always rank higher. Sure Sony makes sensor, just doesn’t know how to get the best out of them. Very sad, always has been.
Thank goodness nobody is bringing up the fact that canon and nikon have had just as many issues (if there even are any real issues) from their new release cameras….One bad blog entry and its all over…Thanks goodness we are all rational enough to try out the camera before making judgement…
Steve Huff post pretty much pouring cold want on the A7 worry worts…problems what problems??
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/10/31/my-1st-look-wrap-up-of-the-sony-a7-and-a7r-cameras/
Sony is improving. Last time their camera got lower score than Nikon’s for the same sensor. Same sensor same score is already good.
Plus their camera is cheaper.
Sony degraded color separation for miserable 0.16 stops of high ISO performance. Fools, with NR software you have much more than these, but once colors were read as same ones you can’t fixed it anymore. I would be happy with about 2500 high ISO performance – this would lead to acceptable ISO12800 once processed with DxO Optics 9 (Prime NR).
but the lens are more expensive.
Same score doesn’t mean same sensor. That’s one thing. But seriously, even if it’s a modified D800E sensor (I wonder if whoever that claims it’s a modified D800E sensor actually works at the Sony sensor fab factory to be able to know this much….), why put so much emphasis on it? It’s how the owner is able to use the A7r effectively and enjoying the camera that matters the most. How do you classify a sensor as “all-new” anyway? Taking a base design from something that exists already and making improvements to it is not considered as new? Then, there were never any “all-new” cars ever on the market today. They are all based on Flinstone’s design of four wheels attached to a chassis….
thank you. posts like this show me that there is still some common sense here…
Given the a7R having similar results to the D800E, I’d bet we will see similar results between the D600 and the a7. Might be worth looking into for people.
And while I’m at it.. the most frustrating thing for me? The inconsistency with Sony lenses. The whole IBIS thing makes the alpha lenses far less useful with an NEX. And it seems they don’t intend to fix that. What about alpha lenses with stabilization that can be used on either EF or A (with adapter)? Wouldn’t that help their lens issues some?
And what is with the resolving power of Sony cameras + Sony lenses? I see lots of test chart shoots and Canon seems to do FAR better. Are Sony lenses that bad? Or is there some truth to the whole theory that Canon somehow makes its sensors resolve detail better for the same number of pixels? Hard to find charts that shoot say a Canon lens on a Sony and Canon body for comparison.
Would be very interesting to see some tests with Nikon lenses on the D800E vs a7R. Or heck, Canon lenses with a Canon 5D3 vs an a7.
Nothing to get excited about here. The up front numbers used by DxOmark.com aren’t even real, those are “print” numbers. To see the real numbers, you have to dig in and change print to ‘screen’ There you will see that the 36MP sensor scores NO better than the APS-C sensor in the D7000, in fact it scores exactly the same. It makes sense because the FF sensor is probably just a worked up version of the APS-C sensor. Is anyone excited about the D7000 sensor today? Of course not, so the D800 and Sony A7R are just D7000 sensors or FF versions, the pixel density and size are about the same.
Even though the 7 will score better, it still won’t be great, just D600 numbers. The pixels are almost identical in size to 12 MP APS-C pixels, so if Sony wanted to, they could deliver the same high ISO in a 12 MP crop sensor. So what’s the big deal about FF? not much if you ask me.
To many people getting excited over nothing. Now if Sony put a FF sensor with between 16 and 18MP, then that would be great. Where is it? Used Nikon FF D700 looks better.
What is the big deal about FF?? Ahhhhh focal length/angle of view/dof…
Placebo effect. Angle of view and focal lenght can be had with m43s and apsc. And unless youre taking useless f1.2 stuff all the time dof can also be had.
Dude, you are fool, sorry. And those DxO guys are not, so they prioritise print tab over screen one.
I could try to explain you what is wrong with your logic, but I’m tired too much about it: there were tons of explanations, but stupids like you keep comparing at 100% level.
Look, at pixel level, there is almost impossible for any manufacturer to improve signal/noise ratio at the same conditions (pixel size and light). Differences amongst top companies are very small. It is because of CMOS technology used in chip manufacturing process. A/D converter itself has a nominal S/N ratio which cannot be surpassed by significant margin. This is physics. Sensors designs these days differ rather in other parameters like color separation, signal filtering, relative size of photodiodes for RGB colors, gamma correction curve, micro-lens design etc. It is not surprising that the S/N ratios at pixel level of various CMOS sensors with the same pixel dimensions are almost the same. But FF sensor is better over APS-C or m43 just because it is easier to produce FF lenses which deliver superior micro-contrast. Many average quality FF lenses deliver better micro-contrast then a HQ lens for m43 for example. Smaller sensors are better for portability but FF and larger sensors are better for IQ.
I have just seen a7r’s measurements and there is a downer: they sacrificed color separation for the sack of slightly better high ISO, thus we have 2800 ISO rating instead of 2500 for RX1 (and metamerism index is just 78 for a7r, on par with pentaxes and nikons, and 85 for RX1). This is no go for me, I appreciated great color separation of previous Sony cameras: indeed, I can have much better control over noise via software and 0.16 stop difference is just nothing.
So, I won’t buy it for sure, especially considering underwhelming performance with RF wides.
Emacs, could you tell how did you found out from the diagrams/measurements that A7R did sacrifice color separation?
Or it is just your backward wild guess? Means, if ISO better, then colours rendition then must be worse? But the sensors in RX1 and A7R are entirely different (24 vs 36 mp).
I saved this post. It may be the most egregious example of gear-obsessed statististic worship I’ve ever seen outside the Leica forums.
Sony puts one of the greatest sensors ever made into a wonderful little camera and people find some crazy way to be upset by its lack of quality. (Clearly the D800E is far superior. Sony, I am dissapoint)
And let’s all stop with the wide angle line already. It is the same story with the M9, M240 or the compromises of SLR-designed ultrawides. We figured out how to make wides work on mirrorless years ago.
Okay, this NEX/alpha 7 cute and everything… Enough already! Can we have some news about “more traditional” cameras for us wanting actual grip an be able to use our new 70-200/400???
The heat from the sensor has to go somewhere. So it pops up in your files as a mild decrease in SNR, resulting in a bit of noise and reduced DR.
Such a difference is negligible and the RAW processing skills of the editor will have a much bigger influence on the final quality. At this point I wouldn’t even be surprised if the sensor was really an upgraded sensor in the sense that it builds up less heat. People should realize that this isn’t film and that body sizes also come with IQ constraints. I think the job the engineers have done with this device is really remarkable.
Good point, gintony! 🙂
Good point! 🙂