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First a quick note: The A7II kit is in Stock at [shoplink 32075 ebay]BestBuy eBay (Click here)[/shoplink] and via third party resellers at Amazon (Click here).
Of course the big feature of the new camera is the 5 axis system. CameraLabs (Click here) tested it and writes:
On the conditions of the day, I required a shutter speed of at least 1/25 to handhold the 55mm for a sharp result without stabilisation. With stabilisation enabled, I could achieve the same result at 0.3 seconds, which represents three stops of compensation.
The built-in stabilisation definitely helps, at least with the FE 55mm lens, but it won’t smooth out wobbles to anywhere near the same degree for video as the Olympus IBIS. I’ll add many more examples and comparisons in my final review.
One of the most compelling aspects of the A7 series was being able to adapt lenses from any system without a crop, and now to have them all stabilised (even if it’s by a small degree) will make the A7 II an extremely tempting proposition – even more so since the launch price is the same as the A7 before it, while the original model becomes discounted.
P.S.: Some image samples with the A7II have been posted on SonyAlphaForum.
130 Responses
yes, of course he can handhold a 55 at 1/25, but i will never believe, those pictures are crisp sharp at the pixel level, when magnified…
The claim of handholding a 55 at 1/25 makes the statement of handholding at 1/3 with IBIS questionable, I’m just saying…
STFU
Why don’t you do a little experiment yourself, you don’t need a Sony A7mkii to do it. Just put an IS lens on any compatible camera and shoot 1/3 handheld.
OK
That’s handheld with zoom set to 50mm at 1/3 sec exposure, not exactly tack sharp but usable.
I would never shoot at this speed normally, this is only an experiment.
That was taken with image stabilization on?
Yes.
The second image in the above post is @ 1/3 sec, the author posted it along with the text of the article. And look below, Mantesh posted a handheld shot with a stabilized sensor camera and got acceptable results at 1/3 sec.
Acceptable for a very slow shutter speed shot, but not what I would consider ideal. In my test shot reducing the exposure time from 1/3 to 1/10 would likely yield a very sharp image under the same conditions.
I’m not debunking the test I just said so just to let the public form their own opinion of what’s acceptable for them, not only image wise but also the condition it takes to shoot with such a shutter speed.
Agreed! Everyone has different needs for shooting. IBIS is a fine technological advance, but some people just have no need for it. And beautiful images have been taken for years without it.
CI Sales logic; If your camera doesn’t have IBIS you don’t need it. Brilliant!
If you need it, buy it. If you don’t, don’t. I suspect you are a person of many personalities.
Just strap the camera to your head and use remote shutter release. It’s just like a tripod, except without the tripod. Your head is the ultimate 5 axis.
Hand holding a 55mm lens at 1/25 is certainly within the realm of possibility for an experienced photographer with a steady hand. The image may not be as tack sharp as a shot taken on a tripod but very usable.
OK, sure. We all got our own preferences…
This is BS, this is how a real test looks like:
It can’t possibly work, the mount is too small. A little troll told me.
If he can shoot a 55mm lens at 1/25 and get sharp images all the time, I’ll claim I shoot it at 1/2 and get sharp images too. I’ve done it once, so it must be true, right?
Do you have any images to back up your claim? Why are you overanalyzing this, do you have a mental condition?
Why is this overanalyzing? His whole “3 stop advantage” is based on the fact that he gets 1/25 hand-held exposures, which is unrealistic.
Why are you insulting people on the internet, do you have problems in bed?
Agreed, it isn’t overanalyzing, you are actually not making any sense at all. And nice touch on the insulting.
You should know that he adds impersonation to his insulting in order to, I don’t know, try to piss me off or something. I feel bad, because he spends so much energy and time at it I feel I should fake some anxiety just to keep him going!
And I shall like your message in return so you get a feel of approval. Good job.
The 1/FL rule is just a general guideline, not some kind of physical law. Everyone has different levels of natural hand tremors which will modify the 1/FL rule somewhat. Also, if you have time to brace your elbow against your body and control your breathing then outperforming the 1/FL rule by a stop should be fairly achievable for anybody.
I know, I could get get a 50mm to do sharp exposures at 1/30 when I was shooting film but I wouldn’t claim it as a norm. Also, I’m sure those shots wouldn’t hold up if we printed them very large.
I could get someone with the steadiest hands and maybe get a reasonably sharp shot at 1/10. Shall we call it as “normal” and judge the IBIS acoordingly? I don’t think so.
I’d agree about not claiming them as the norm but if he genuinely finds that 1/25 is his threshold then it really only makes sense to use that as a baseline. It’s the same as how at the end of a long hike I generally need to use a stop or even two faster of shutter speed than normal as my hands get pretty shaky when I’m tired. If you’re going to try to evaluate how much the IS system is helping, then you need as accurate a baseline as possible otherwise your results are pretty meaningless.
As for the prints not holding up when printing very large I can get shots that are just as sharp at 1/25s @ 50mm as 1/250s @ 50mm but you really have to take the time to brace the camera against your body properly and calm your breathing. It’s absolutely possible and repeatable, just not terribly convenient.
Yep, as humans we can make a pretty decent tripod, but you need to figure out the posture that works for you. I prefer a bit of a triangle because my right hand is a bit more shaky then left, but in the end it is down to breathing. I like ibis and long lens OSS / IS / ISS but I also think if you know you are going for longer exposure / static shots, get a tripod / monopod and save your back / kidneys 🙂
As Will Humber was saying and my interpretation also, the author was not stating that 1/3 was a usable shutter speed but only using that rather ridiculous speed to demonstrate the difference with the IBIS on and off.
What nonsensical whining. Who are you quoting there. He didn’t say it was “normal” and he didn’t claim to have “sharp images all the time” at that shutter speed. He goes to the lowest speed at which he can get a sharp picture without the stabilization and tests from there. Pretty logical approach.
Not that simple, its more help with your tele work. You would more likely get “consistent results” at 1/125th on a 200mm rather than having to be at 1/250th-1/500th if your technique is only average. OSS & IBIS are only tools to aid a proper technique, on a sloppy technique results will still be poor. This would explain the wide variances people are seeing. Mark Galer (Sony AU) has been getting some fantastic results but his camera technique is better than most users.
stick your iphone work horse to your forehead permanently and you’ll have steady shots every time and never miss that ‘time’ magazine front cover shot because some real camera user gets in your way…
Jr. stop it.
You say that seriously with an iphone stuck to your forehead XD
Its funny how Sony came out with a new system to make more money because so many people would use Minolta maxxum lenses on their A-Mount cameras and now with the E-Mount system people are still using other lens mounts… The problem now is that its usually Canon lenses and STILL not their own lenses. So many troll in the past (A-mount and other brand users) would claim that Sony needed a more complete lens lineup, Well the A-mount lens lineup is Years ahead of E-Mount but the toy camera E-Mount type buyers seems to not care about lens selection I guess.
Admin, if you don’t mind, is there any hint about an aps-c based rx10 in the future for 2015. I really need to know because am in the verge to buy an rx10. If there is a chance for an aps-c based, ill wait. Don’t have the finance to buy both.
Am not really bothered about the mark 2 variant of rx10, the first one is impressive enough, and now at slashed prices. Please do reply.
The lens would have to be much larger to maintain the same effective focal length range of the RX10 if an APS-C sensor were to be used.
Yes, agreed. It’d ruin a good thing.
thank you for the info 🙂
Put the flat profiles and cropping guides on the RX10 and its done. Its a very cool little camera as-is. I wouldn’t want a larger sensor on mine to be honest. YMMV.
thanks 🙂
We are all different in the ability to hold and expose a camera – myself being in the wrong end on a scale from excellent to very poor 🙂
I can however manage 1/30 – 1/60 sec with A7r/D800 and 35mm lens be it a comfortable position and being lucky.
Based on my experience with Oly EM5, it gives me 2 – 3 steps. Reports at m43 rumors about 5 steps is marketing/wishful thinking.
My guess is that the A7II is at 2 – 3 steps. Bear in mind that the higher resolution compared to m43, sharpness is more critical on the A7II.
Still, a A7r/A9 with IBIS will be on my shopping list.
Seems like to many the 1/FL is law of the universe and any speed slower than that is impossible to get a clear shot handheld..
Judge Dredd is that law!
All I know is I was able to get perfectly sharp photos (pixel level sharp) with the RX10 at 200mm equivalent at 0.8sec (not 1/8th). So don’t find anything relating to 2-3 stops to be terribly exciting. Saying that 1 stop at most is the usable maximum in most cases which just about any OS system can handle, so that’s good. The rest is just bragging rights of ‘look what my camera can do!’ on the Internet.
How about showing us the pictures, 100% crop? RX10 has a realy nice steadyshot.
I’m sorry I don’t have those shots close to hand (if at all) I took them a year ago when the RX10 arrived to test bragging rights, I don’t have any use for shots like that normally. I also no longer have the RX10 (though I miss it), but it isn’t a new model, should be able to find one to test it with if you like?
The IS is very very good (certainly one of the better ones I have tried, couldn’t quite crack a second though), but I think also having a leaf shutter doesn’t hurt either.
Shame, always fun to see real world examples. Tried the RX10 for a week and gave it back, kept my Nikon and this year jumped ship to the A7s / A7r / a6000. Sony always had excellent steadyshots, I liked the RX10 because I have the RX100, but wanted more then 200mm.
I had it predominantly for video which it excelled at. For stills it was very decent, but doesn’t hold up compared to my other stills cameras. I used it nearly full time for a year for video and was an amazing little machine.
I was trying it for video to be honest, never considered it for photography having a D700 and D800 (and a Canon 5DIII for video)
Using the 135/1.8 with LA-EA4 I get sharp pics around 1/16-1/30s, depending on what I did before. Quite good in my opinion (although heavy, this Sony-Zeiss 135/1.8 is extremely sharp even wide open. Makes up for the less optimal handling compared to my Nikon DSLRs and worth the buy alone).
I have the Z135 and yes it is quite heavy for its class (aren’t all the Sony Zeiss lenses?) but spectacular. 2-3 stops sounds about right. Despite the size of the lens I prefer it on my A7/A7S to my D700 (with say my Sigma 85mm f1.4) for handling.
so OSS still works better, especially in video
Nope, just like Tony explains a few comments above, OSS combined with IBIS is better than IBIS or OSS alone, which of course makes sense.
then i say 95% of the stabilization is from OSS, 5% at most is from IBIS.
Another overhyped Sony marketing surprise? I guess Olympus is still king for IBIS and video work. No surprise there.
Olympus King for video??? Didn’t realize they were even in the conversation for ling of video 😮
King of the tiny sensor crowd, and not directly comparable to full frame IBIS.
I prefer my shots in focus.
Well why no get your self a P&S and every shot can be in focus
Olympus may have the better 5-axis but as for video it is a major weakness of Olympus . If video in mFT is your thing you really want Panasonic
It has been out now for almost a month, right? Where are the deals? When would the price become reasonable?
When they stop selling out each time a shipment arrives, a few months possibly.
In our tests, we found about 4 stops of improvement with non-IS lenses, and 1-1.5 stops with lenses that had IS built-in. If you want to shoot primes handheld with slow shutters, it’s a must-have. Otherwise, you probably don’t care.
3-4 stops is reasonable, imo, too. Get about the same, depending on lens (4 stops wide-angle to normal lenses, 3 stops for tele).
Good information, thank you Tony.
“and 1-1.5 stops with lenses that had IS built-in.”
I assume you mean 1-1.5 stops IN ADDITION to the improvement already provided by OSS, right?
Yeah, the statement makes no sense to me either. Why would you engage both IBIS and lens stailization at the same time?! Normally I thought this was a big NO.
OSS is engaged automatically, and 3 axes are left for IBIS to correct.
In my own tests, I’ve found zero stops of improvement. That’s because I haven’t done any tests. But the tests that I could have done demonstrate a clear performance upgrade if only they existed. Since they don’t, I’ll have to contend that most probably won’t care either.
P.S.- If you want to shoot primes handheld there is still the “oh my god” technique. You brace the camera against your upper chest, take a deep breath…hold it…press the shutter and pray. It works I swear. For everything else there is the almighty tripod.
Yeah when you have to shoot on a TVC with next to no light…I am sure the spray and pray technique is the best option…
Don’t bother posting on here Tony, we’re infested with “Photography Trolls.” Just pick an anonymous handle and play “whack-a-troll” a few minute a day, its actually a fun therapy and free to play. 🙂
Is there a side by side Olympus v Sony 5 axis test at equivalent focal lengths somewhere?
Does it really matter, they are two completely different systems and different formats and therefore not directly comparable.
At the moment there are no comparable tests to show what is better just a lot of people’s opinion.
I have 5 axis in my olympus. I think it’s more hype than all out useful. However, I’m willing to admit I might be wrong on this one. For FF you often have to step down to get a bit more DOF unlike M43. So here, you do get a serious advantage if you work in those types of situation. Still though, I can live without it.
I tried turning off stabilization on my A65 about a year ago. What I ended up with is way more blurry or noisy photos. If i’d use the camera as with stabilization, at 75mm equiv at 1/25 would almost always be smudged. Alternatively I tried upping the ISO to get higher shutter speeds, but that of course resulted in much more noise.
While yes, I agree that there is no replacement for a good tripod, sometimes the only chance you get is shooting handheld, and thats where stabilization becomes invaluable.
I was hoping for 4 stops. Oh well, guess I’ll have to pass.
I find this funny, because it concisely sums up the general attitude of gear: each new technology, like IBIS, is fine for some, not needed by others, and roundly discussed as if all of our photography depended upon it to merely exist. It’s just tech- if you like it, great. If you don’t like it, great. But let’s not pretend that it revolutionizes the world of photography.
Yes, agreed like the retrofocus wides for your beloved SLR. They certainly didn’t revolutionize image quality did they. Again you are talking way beyond your understanding of this subject.
Get ready for it he’s typing, here comes CI SALES THE CREEPER…..
Sally, i have a provocational question for you and JT and Jack the iphone stalker etc, and one you can counter with some hipsterism if you must: what makes the colour different between different lenses, the coatings? the glass? and does that matter to you or do you adjust for it with WB or rather have matching ones or ignore it and alter anyway in post or maybe like me use it to match the scene aesthetically and following the inclination of the natural lighting colour…? provocational because i require you to back up your opinion with sources that prove it objectively…reason: i have lenses that are technically good but i love to have a range of colours and character in them too…
kenrockwell.com
OK but i heard its not the coatings at all, and some of my lenses in same make have different colours which given that its actually the glass that renders different colours is interesting, just wondered if you could use your pool of knowledge to verify it for me, not certify me. I wonder how that effects the reception of given scenes colour range in given lighting if at all regards objective accuracy in the final image, haha i know not allowed to be objective but im curious about that…
His expressive pictorialist use of colour really stung you hard huh? lol, I never touched a colour wheel and have a fantastic grasp of palette and apply that aesthetic understanding to my objective photography: long words for you i know sorry. Stick to that Leica M Monochrom, it suits you XD
>I never touched a colour wheel and have a fantastic grasp of palette and apply that aesthetic understanding to my objective photography<
LSD will do that for you……..you probably soar on a breeze with the birds and bees…….
Confusing instagram and pictorialism with objective reality will do that to you, make you post nonsense and think its avant garde.
WTF
Photographs with beautiful colour are probably the rarest photographs of all, yet the most anyone mentions about it is ‘canon does skin tones well’…or ‘that leica look’ without addressing how the subjects and scenes colours have been selected and captured authentically and artistically with the whole palette in mind: cue hipsterism that colour doesnt matter for editorial or is best when wackily photoshopped ‘creatively’etc…XD
My yashica 21mm has little vignetting wide open and i don’t need wider because i don’t shoot fruitflies bellies with my back to the wall under them lol
Ah, the other creeper, his kid?
not a creeper, a truth teller and 33 years old: not to be confused with iphone users
What is a retrofocus lens? WITHOUT LOOKING IT UP KID.
Wow I can hear myself chirp, utter silence from the sales guys!
I don’t care, i know what focal length to use and none of my lenses have such issues as were stressed at the introduction of A7R, how do you personally negate issues with a given lens without looking it up or testing it yourself?
Short flange distance camera is extremely useful in of itself if not revolutionary in a way, now what are you implying otherwise?
Good god man, your are certifiable.
And i suppose you prefer totally ‘technically perfect’ neutral bokeh like you might find in nikon glass perhaps but dismiss any outlining despite its being subdued in a half stop aperture adjustment to pure subliminity of blurring hahahaha with no particular offense intended to nikon glass users infact its prevalent in my Zeiss 55 1.8 :I and any over corrected lens: Medium format soon please Sony!
Who says you won’t?
Who am I kidding. I’ll probably end up buying the damn thing.
I have something better than 5 axis. I refuse to compromise. It’s called a tripod.
+1 but a tripod is not always the best option. Si
I take it everywhere. Been to Scotland a few times and practically left it attached to my camera. Even with 5 axis on my M43 I still use it all the time, full daylight. It’s like crack. Base ISO, two second timer..step away and watch the magic happen.
Even more important if your doing composites- forget about 5 axis. It’s so freaking hard to get three shots perfectly aligned hand held no matter how fast your shutter speed is. I probably look crazy walking around with that thing, but I’ve gotten use to it.
Damn, do you do street? How would people react when they see that…
My thinking is, people know you’re sticking a camera in their face whether it’s small or large. It doesn’t make much of a difference. They probably think I’m like a pro or something. I’ll run out into the middle of the street and catch a quick hit before traffic starts moving again as well. That usually gets some looks.
As far as what other photographers think….I feel it sends out the message “biiitch please”…as in, this is how you do it kids. Learn from the almighty tripod. It never lies.
Just remember the market. alpha 7 is geared towards mobile shooters. The kind that likes to pack light. I understand the value of tripods, but 5 axis has lots of use too.
How about at 200mm or 300mm?
IMHO, Stabilization is more important for telephoto lens.
and it is the weakness of IBIS.
+1
+1 ibis seems less attractive the more I see it demonstrated and tested.
Don’t have any weakness with 300mm or 600mm equivalent telephoto lenses and Olympus IBIS compared to any Canon or Nikon OIS.
The problem with this test is that the focal length was small. The difference between 3 stop and 4 stop gain is 0.3 s and close to 0.5 s. Too close to call. The tests should be repeated CORRECTLY.
The focal length makes the test incorrect?
The focal length makes the resulting value TOO CLOSE to call. So either use a different focal length, OR different starting exposure.
So, yeah, AS IT IS, the test is invalid. I own Olympus E-P5, so I am hardly attached to Sony 5-axis tech… but I call it as I see it when someone makes a mistake in making conclusions.
3 stops is “a small degree”??
Sure, in the grand picture of things. It’s the difference between 100 and 800 iso, not too much of a stretch for today’s sensors.
What a load of Cr*p!!!! Yeah lets all shoot at 800 iso it makes no difference….
Of course you leave out the part where 3 stops is the difference between having to shoot at 800 and 6400 iso…Still no difference??….Seriously…
Calm down. I didn’t say it couldn’t be useful, only that 3 stops is not a huge degree. If you disagree, fine, but it’s not really worth getting all hot under the collar.
Did you engage thought process prior to clicking post….???
Do you have a specific complaint?
……
Yes, YOU!
No, he never does! He’s moved on from picking fights one-on-one because his logic is flawed and he always comes worse off. On this latest sniping mission, he cannot see the idiocy in his logic. IBIS is a darn sight more useful than his FLAPPING NIKON MIRROR, but he’s so hell-bent on making some deranged point he cannot comprehend this point.
Good for you Gav – whack that CI Sales creeper.
Somehow, even though theoretically ISO800 should be fine, I still find the color of base ISO files much easier to work with. Something is lost starting at around ISO800…but this is on my NEX7, things may be different when I upgrade.
Yeah…lets all give away a couple of stops of latitude for the fun of it…
Fair enough. As any long term photographer knows, there are a lot of tricks use to squeeze a few stops as needed. This is one more tool in the bag.
Yes, it is a small degree, when compared to Olympus 5-axis that gives 6-8 stops depending your shooting stance (meaning, take a Olympus 45mm and you can do handheld 2-4 second exposures with about 50-80% success rate.
Significant nonetheless
I’ll wait for Methlabs review.