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Sony is planing a real massive attack on the Full Frame mirrorless front. According to trusted sources Sony could launch two new A-mount and one new E-mount Full Frame cameras in 2014. Little is known about the cameras. They will feature a new generation 30+ Megapixel sensor and new advanced on sensor phase detection autofocus. The first camera to be announced will be one of the A-mount FF in early 2014. The other two could be announced at Photokina in September (2014!).
Sony is betting big on Mirrorless. This may be the one chance for them to finally grab some more significant market share in the Canonikan dominated High End FF market.
36 Responses
I see big problems in the corners of a FF sensor, when used with E-mount…
…and why pay for a FF sensor, if one has to crop the picture to APS-C size, because of smudged corners?
They should rather try to…
…fit a 1.3 crop sensor in – or even better:
…offer really good lens for their APS-C sized sensor in E-mount first.
But one has probably to pay anyway the extra price for Zeiss lens, to get a decent quality.
And besides that an FF sensor can’t fit in the E-Mount (corners), will an E-Mount lens cover the FF sensor? No. Sony is already struggling to make decent APS-C lenses for the E-Mount.
SONY just need to copy CMOSIS who have pioneering strong corner performance with aspherical (rather than offset) microlenses. That and shallow pixel wells and good baffles to prevent color bleeding as well as a thin AA filter to prevent optical abberation before light gets to the sensor.
“SONY just need to” do things for APS-C lenses right, before they try to cover the image circle of bigger sensors with E-mount.
I think You also forget, that the lens mount on the lens itself is reducing the useable space for the rear lens element even further and is therefore the bottleneck, not only the mount on the camera body, which is already unsuited…
…good luck. 🙂
Don’t touch lenses. It IS a sensor that should not limit optical design: because we have MANY lenses and only one sensor.
I love better sensors and I love lens mounts, suited for better IQ…
…the mount should not limit optical design, no?
Are you aware of the tests already performed M lenses on the existing fullframe NEX camera? It’s obvious where the issues are and it’s not the geometry of the lens mount. M mount throat diameter is narrower than E mount.
Are you aware of the longer registration distance (27,8 mm vs. 18 mm)of the Leica M- mount in comparison to the E-mount?
Just show me E-mount lenses for the FF NEX and the RAW files from pictures taken with that combination. 🙂
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Maybe You agree that a bigger (inner) mount diameter than that of the E- mount or M- mount would help a lot, to make lens and sensor design easier and therefore cheaper for FF sensors?
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I hope that at least Samsung is not that crazy to fit a FF sensor behind the narrow NX mount, which is suited for APS-C size sensors but not really for bigger sensors like crop 1.3 or FF…
…in my opinion the inner diameter of the mount on the lens should not be smaller than the diagonal of the sensor to avoid unnecessary costs for sensor and lens design and / or smudgy corners and vignetting.
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Finally I’m not bound to a particular system, so, I just need to wait and see… 😀
exactly ! a 18*27mm sensor would be better for E-mount.
I see big black storm clouds in Canikon´s home instead: Storm clouds names are Fuji and Sony.
bahaha sonuy? maybe fuji… sony is good for Bravia television
FF NEX — yes
Alpha mount won’t change anything.
So many people patiently waiting for a smallish fullframe mirrorless camera that has good performance with leica, zeiss and voigtlander lenses + a couple of native AF lenses.
Fullframe cameras have become a commodity item in the dslr world, and SONY will get to charge a premium if they’re first to market with a mirrorless cam.
1st lenses, beside kit lens, to arrive in 2015.
Great job Sony. No doubt there will be a few full frame e-mount lenses to go with a small FF mirrorless camera that will cover the full sensor. Thank God it’s not a stupid 1.3 crop sensor and instead proper FF. There will also be many high quality lenses off the bat from release date. Watch out Canon/Nikon!
Well, if someone likes “bigger is better” marketing:
“wow, what a big expensive lens and there is even light coming through!” 😀
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If Sony would deliver outstanding lenses for APS-C, I would say:
“OK we try the NEXt step and go for 1.3 crop…”
But they don’t even deliver real good lenses for APS-C and go for FF…
…sorry, but that is rediculous…
…and pure marketing without real benefit for the customer IMHO.
Funny how people in the Sony camp here see problems with a full frame E mount.
After all, the E-mount has a 2mm LARGER outer diameter than e.g., the Nikon D800E which has fantastic corner performance, be it wide angle (14-24/2.8G), or else.
I am sorry to hear that current E mount lenses do not all satisfy. But maybe, a full frame version extends the entire E mount market to cover the high image quality niche as well. Optically, it is an established fact that the highest optical quality (as measured in LW/PH for a given equivalent aperture at a given field of view) is more easy to build for a larger format, and this even applies to corners.
Falk
Two things count (beside real existing lenses for E-mount and their actual quality):
INNER diameter of the mount on the lens and flange focal distance…
Even if the Nikon mount would have the same INNER diameter of the mount on the lens…
…the flange focal distance is more than twice as big as the one from Sony,
which forces You to higher angles of incidence, if the INNER diameter of the mount is smaller than the diagonal of the sensor.
Just imagine what happens if You move a ring with a smaller diameter than the sensor, closer and closer to the sensor surface…
If I calculated correct, then the inner diameter of the E-mount has to be around 40 mm, if the one of the Nikon has 35, to get the same angle of incidence in the outer corner of a full frame sensor…
…go ahead, measure the inner diameter of Your mount. 🙂
There’s FF NEX: the VG900. So stop spreading misinformation.
Where is the misinformation?
Nikon mount:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Nikon_F-mount_mechDwg.png
flange focal distance 46,5 mm
flange focal distance E-mount 18 mm
46,5:18 = 2,58 which is more than twice, which is what I wrote – no?
Inner diameter of the F-Mount is 35 mm – no?
The diagonal of a FF sensor is 43 mm – no?
If You calculate the angle of incidence for a light ray on the outer edge of the 35 mm circle to the outer edge of the 43 mm diagonal in a distance of 46,5 mm, one get 4,9 degree…
…now calculate how big the circle has to be for 43 mm diagonal and 18 mm distance at 4,9 degree…
…I get a value around 40 mm and You?
(For 35 mm diameter and 18 mm distance I get a value of 13 degree for the angle of incidence in the corners of the FF – that IS much more than for the Nikon mount – no?)
Please quote and clarify, where You see a misinformation?
And where is the flawless corner performance of a E-mount lens in front of a FF-sensor – please show examples.
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It is simply a fact, that You can’t expect good corners if You go FF with E-mount – no?
That may be no problem for portraits, but it is one for landscape and architecture…
…and I think the people should know, therefore I see no misinformation from my side and don’t understand Your reaction.
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I considered the RX1, but the corner performance I saw was just good, but not excellent (and the body performance was not really exciting – especially the AF).
And the RX1 lens had no limitations according the mount – no?
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I have no problems if Sony is going FF with E-mount…
…but I wan’t to share my thoughts and doubts…
…and I provide provable arguments –
so I also expect provable arguments from You!
Don’t forget few things with full frame mirrorless from Sony.
According to SAR, there will be a FF E-mount sooner or later. So I understand the supposed problems in the corners. The most important thing to know is that the diameter problem are not going to be the main problem, but the very short flange distance. It can leads some softness in the corner with wide angle (due to the angle of the incident rays). The results of the VG900 could be intersting to analyse (I don’t know if it’s ok or not).
But other mirrorless are going to be A-mount and are not going to encounter this problem. Sony leaves the translucent mirror technology, and in fact totally leaves the mirror. My questions are : what to do with the “free” flange distance? Will thoses camera be bulky, like DSLR? And if they are, is Sony able to implement a decent autofocus?
Wait and see…
Good news. I believe a NEX system with a lineup of fast prime lenses is the way to go. 21, 24, 28, 35, 50, 85, 105, 135 and no need for zooms.
Sony: we absolutely agree with you, that’s why we are going to release it with 28-85 f/3.5-5.6 kit zoom and maybe a 24-70 f/3.5-5.6 and another 28-105 f/3.5-5.6 just to make sure that we have enough good lens to choose from.
It doesn’t matter what they’ll release… it will be too expendive anyway.
So I guess that in that gage of prices a Leica would be a much better investment.
RX1 is too high priced because it´s the first FF compact camera out there and Zeiss lenses are way too expensive. Let´s wait Fuji and Samsung enter in the market and probably see a big drop in pricing. Also, probably Olympus will make lenses for Sony as a part of their strategic agreement.
As a NEX 7 owner, how many YEARS am I going to have to wait for an upgrade? Dont need more pixles, need better sensitivity (high ISO), and numerous other enhancements.
See a lot of Sony bashing here. Don’t own Sony anymore, but this counting-out of the most innovative camera company extant should take pause. Sony has Olympus making some of the coming FF E-mount lenses, Zeiss is slated to add a couple of designs as well. Zeiss also designed the new A-mount 50mm, so the new camera’s will have a good selection of glass to choose from. Do not know if the short flange distance will be addressed via the coming curved sensors, or just adapters. Sony has a patent on one. Curved sensors likely will be the future for all digital cameras if yield rates are acceptable. Curved sensors address corner issues many posters worry about here.
I see some hints with provable arguments and no Sony bashing here.
According ergonomics I feel like DTB wrote and I didn’t mention it yet, because it is subjective, but also true for me.
I tested the NEX models, especially the NEX 7 and NEX 6 more than once,
but found, that they are only balanced with the not that stellar performing kit zoom lens, but the grip was still not well suited for my hands and the UI was not encouraging either.
I applaud Sony for their good efforts in sensor technology and for delivering those sensors to several manufactures, which was a big step forward in terms of sensor quality, encouraging others to strenghten their efforts.
However, camera and lens wise, they couldn’t convince me…
…even the RX1, which I also tried again (for the third time) last wednesday.
Now they got help from Oly for the lens design and maybe they get help from Samsung? for the body and especially UI design. 🙂
A FF NEX in it’s current design wouldn’t fit in my hands for sure and I’m sure that not only me would feel unbalanced with a big FF lens attached.
In my opinion: Sony sensors yes, Sony cameras no – at the moment.
No bashing here, only well considered thoughts.
While we have to admire them for their innovation, if they use the NEX design for their FF mirrorless camera, that would be a huge mistake. I can only speak for myself, but I can’t stand the Nex series cameras – they are too small and the design is uninspiring to say the least. And, even with an APS-C sized sensor, their lenses are far too big, making the system unbalanced. A full frame X-Series camera about the size of the X-Pro 1 would be far more exciting. Though, that is unlikely in the near future.
It seems even SONY isn’t yet certain which lenses and prices will accompany its FF cameras in 2014 and perhaps late 2014 or 2015. I’m thinking of selling off most of my NEX E Mount lenses while the prices are ok since it’s my understanding they will demand cropping with a FF body. I’d appreciate SONY to give us perspective purchasers a clearer lens and body road map, including sizes, weights and even honest tentative prices, to our FF futures. Merely to say FF NEX will be the Ferrari class of cameras won’t give SONY the prestige and recognition of decades of cameras that hold and even increase in value vs my old SONY cameras that I can’t give away. It’s time for SONY to build that caliber of reputation instead of merely alluding to it and throwing out possible pricey price tags. Many of us are and have been the backbone of SONY cameras. We just want some solid guidance, but possibly they don’t have a clue themselves. Now doesn’t that give us confidence!
Without much of a clue from SONY, I’ll make my own prediction: While 2013 was a quiet year, 2014 will present a tidal clash as SONY presents its NEX 7n around $1200 and later shows its FF NEX 9 at $2000+. I’m starting to think I’ll keep my lenses and go with the NEX 7n’s improved APS-C sensor.
Isn’t this going to remove the whole point of mirrorless…e.g weight. The lenses for full frame will be bigger and heavier…why not just buy a DSLR