There is a rumor relating to Fujifilm, from the Chinese forum dc.home (translation). It has been spread by joofei, whom you probably still remember from the Wild Rumor Series (wild rumors 1, wild rumors 2 and wild rumors 3).
Joofei says, that Fujifilm, Panasonic & Toshiba are going to announce something before mid-September 2015… and once more, wild guesses started, related to organic sensor or the rumored Medium Format camera.
Everything joofei shared so far, has still be verified. So take it with the mandatory grain of salt.
WHAT WE KNOW
TOSHIBA: Fujifilm is already cooperating with Toshiba… they make the Fuji X-Trans 2/3 sensors
PANASONIC: Fujifilm is cooperating with Panasonic on the Organic Sensor
WHAT COULD BE
Is it possible, that these 3 companies joined forces to break Sony’s sensor hegemony? I don’t know, and we will probably soon see if joofei is reliable or not.
But today I want to share with you an older rumor, which I never shared in the past (yeah, I know, my obsession for beeing as reliable as possible 😉 ).
The rumor I’ve received said, that the next generation of X-Trans sensor will be made by Toshiba (until now, Fuji’s APS-C sensors are made by Sony). This partnership change should be the reason for the delay of the X-PRO2.
It’s anonymous, so take it with a grain of salt. I share it today, because it could be another element of discussion in addition to what joofei said at the Forum. Anyway, since I’ve shared the Toshiba rumor, I’ll include it now into my big rumor check.
So, time again for wild specualtions !
stay tuned,
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80 Responses
Competition is always good – as long as the products are comparable in performance
Every camera company will make announcements in September.
Its been so for years. So to say that all mentioned companies will make an announcement is correct. However the fact that they will make a joint announcement is imho doubtful.
It’s not that doubtful, inasmuch as Toshiba and Fuji have a working relationship with a long past, while Panasonic and Fuji have been working on new hardware.
Wasn’t it Toshiba, who bought Fujifilms sensor fab a few years ago?
Toshiba vs Sony? another battle à la Blu-Ray vs HDDVD? 😉
Toshiba/Fujifilm/Panasonic join forces to create a new 35mm full frame mirrorless standard!
think bigger 😉
It’ll be one extreme or another. A medium format sensor, OR…a another “low-end/intro” camera (X-M1 or X-T10).
Please not again Entry Level. W’re screaming for high end APS-C stuff now and not FF. Fuji said they will not go FF which is a very wise decision (Sony).
Fuji APS-C must have the absolute Weight-Volume-IQ sweetspot.
Medium format? Wouldn’t they have to build an entirely new lens system to support that? Sounds like a big commitment for such a niche market no?
I don’t think they’ll go Full Frame either. Not enough difference with APS-C.
Yeah they would.
Not gonna be medium format.
Going back to the interviews with Fuji’s product manager, they won’t go FF, but they may go MF. The lens line-up for MF might not be such a difficulty for Fuji as they got a huge knowledge and experience to build a line up quite quickly.
After that, it’s “just” a business case issue…
They already produce a MF lens line. It’s sold as Hasselblad.
Sony has the full frame mirrorless all to themselves. Leica might enter the market too. So there’s money to be made in a segment with only one company at the moment.
Nikon will soon introduce a full frame mirrorless camera, too.
As much as I loved Nikon (was a Nikon girl for 20 plus years) they are definitely foot dragging in the mirrorless segment. What have they got? An unpopular CX line and they let their APS-C Coolpix A line die. They were so stodgy with mirrorless I switched entirely to Fujifilm. They lost a long time customer. Not sure I’d go back unless it was something revolutionary.
Well, you have to sort of see it from Canon and Nikon’s perspective. They still dominate the market in sales, and DSLRs still hugely outsell mirrorless cameras. It’s hard to make a business case for throwing millions of dollars into developing and rolling out an advanced new mirrorless system when it likely won’t sell nearly as well as your DSLRs are selling.
That being said, the dawn of the A7rII may give them a newfound sense of urgency. Either way, I’ve no doubt both of them have advanced new mirrorless system cameras in development. Even if they won’t make them a lot of money just yet, I’m sure long-term they can see which way the tide is moving.
i have the same experience
[nikon guy for 20 plus yrs]
Don’t tease. Fujifilm has no plans to introduce a medium format system for the foreseeable future.
I’d like to believe the rumor is true and will produce a quality sensor. Sony’s 6 month exclusivity to use on their own camera bodies is creating an advantage for the company and the industry could use more competition.
It should be emphasized that that 6-month meme is precisely that. There’s been no proof that Sony Semiconductor is holding back sensor tech for Sony’s imaging division. The company just doesn’t work that way … and why would they? It doesn’t make an ounce of financial sense, particularly in a market where it’s important to recoup the expensive R&D sensors demand as quickly as possible.
That’s what Nikon has always reckoned and Fuji too if memory serves. That would explain why Nikon and Fuji (of all the companies using Sony sensors, these are the two I know and had used) are consistently able to extract more performance out of the sensors than Sony themselves: they have more time to learn the ropes.
Sony sensor 6 month waiting?
too long time.
i think organic will complete before 6 month.
Wow, that’s a lot of dangerous rumors thrown into the wild at once! You are taking risks with your rumor rate 🙂
Anyway, I couldn’t hope more than a X-Pro 2 with organic 24Mpx sensor. I’d why I have been waiting so long!
Say thanks to joofei for all these wild rumors. I’d probably never have risked to share the Toshiba sensor rumor… but since we where very into the wild, I wanted to make my contribution 😉
Hide your piggybank, something big is coming…
This rumor worries me. I would be happy to be wrong but I don’t believe that an organic sensor is around the corner. I say that based on the comments made by Fuji itself. If Fuji does migrate away from Sony sensors, I hope they are not choosing a sensor that is less than state-of-the-art for reasons unrelated to image quality and performance. Canon’s insistence on using their own inferior sensor tech was a major factor in my defection to Fuji.
If it turns out to be the organic sensor, it may be a step in the right direction. Camera companies are becoming too dependent on Sony for their sensors, which results in deferred access to new technology. I would like to see Fuji with its own sensors, so they can make more efficient decisions and releases; and, if they decide to modify the size of their sensors (APS-H or square, for instance), they could easily do so.
Square sensor would be cool. Apsh would be silly in my mind. Confusing equilivlent focal lengths for marginal benefit. Bring on the square, you would never need to rotate the camera again!
“…which results in deferred access to new technology.”
Again, where is the proof that Sony Semiconductor is holding back technology from other customers? That would be business suicide in such a high R&D, high volume, but low margin industry.
Repeat something on the Internet enough times and it becomes “truth”. Problem is that “truth” and reality are two different things.
Organic APSC XPro2 or Medium Format X200? Either will suit me just fine!
Organic 28-30MP beat FF.
why more pixel because make smaller pixel can handle heat problem,less power uses,more resolution & DR.
May be just in time to hold off the modern AF Leica game changer that’s coming too.
If there’s any truth to this — and it is related to a major new sensor development — I would say it’s more likely that the new Leica full frame mirrorless camera will be folded into this development, due to the close working relationship with Panasonic on these new Leica cameras. I believe the rumor for this new Leica camera was that it would have the best low light performance in the industry. Hmmmmmm…
For serious cameras (M, S, and the coming mirrorless) Leica designs its own sensors, which are in many ways more advanced than anything in industry, than has them produced in a ST Micro fab. No relation whatsoever with Panasonic. That’s why in the end you pay for a lot of research split on little production numbers.
Um, no. Leica does not produce its own sensors. Not sure where you got that information from, but it’s erroneous.
And in no way are Leica’s sensors more advanced than anything in the industry. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I never wrote that Leica prodices it’s own sensors. As I wrote, they’re made by ST Micro to Leica design.
A good information about the process can be found here
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11
Go to the bottom of the page, Why Leica is staying at 37.5 MP….
You implied that Leica make their own sensors. They do not. Though in truth, most manufacturers of higher-end models don’t. Most have a design brief that is met by whatever chip manufacturer they use.
Performance-wise, Sony’s sensors outperform Leica’s in almost every metric.
The Leica Q represents a heavy collaboration with Panasonic. Leica do not have the electronics know-how to produce autofocus or EVFs to world-class standards. It has not yet been proven, of course, who makes the sensor for the Q, but given Panasonic’s heavy involvement in that camera, it would not surprise me in the least if it was one of theirs.
Glad you can imagine not only what I write, but also what i imply. Maybe you also know what I think. Still quoting something I didn’t write as if I wrote it is an unfair dialectical tecnique.
By the way, the fact that the Q sensor is made by ST Micro Belgian fab on Leica design is included in many statements by Leica bosses. Just serch and you’ll find it.
A Leica with a FF organic sensor would be wild. Although I thought that the organic was for smaller sizes…
We’ll know soon enough. Still, odd that Panny just released the GX8 if this sensor is at hand
Can I ask why everyone assumes an organic sensor is what we’ve all been waiting for?
Let’s sit tight and wait for it. There were too many awesome products in paper release but turned out disappointing.
It’s the internet echo chamber.
Everybody just repeats everybody else about a mythical miracle sensor.
It’s the internet echo chamber.
Everybody just repeats everybody else about a mythical miracle sensor.
It’s a mythical miracle sensor.
A mythical sensor.
This is awesome. It’s confirmed! We’re getting a mythical miracle sensor!
But will its 200 megapixel quantum resonance 4D architecture be enough for my cat pics?
Shigetaka Komori pulled it from a stone
We’re believing the hype, which was that organic = much better dynamic range and much higher resolution, even at smaller sensor sizes. Sounded like revolutionary, not the usual evolutionary leaps.
But it doesn’t exist yet, of course
A regular sensor is a one-chip solution to find out how much light hits a certain pixel and report it as binary data. Exact measuring of light is complicated and takes complex chips. Complex chips generates lots of heat that shows up in the data as noise. They are also hard to make and hard to make chips tend to come out of the fabs with defects. Since the amount of defects are more or less linear to the area of the chips, the bigger the sensor the more of them have to get scrapped.
With the organic sensor a lot of the magic is done in a cheap organic layer above the chip. In comes light from the front out comes electrons on the back. Finding out how many electrons that hit a sensor is a lot simpler than with light. In fact its so simple that the chip could be split into smaller parts and it would still fit behind the organic film. Thus there would be no more scrapping of the whole chip for a few defects, they could just scrap the small part that doesnt work.
Apparently the new sensor was not at hand and ready for GX8 as it not even has been presented yet. That’s why the GX8 used the already available Sony sensor which was revealed in April this year.
This could simply be something strategic. There has and will continue to be a consolidation in the semiconductor sector. Fuji has a Fab but I don’t think of it as a significant part of the business. Selling it off maybe??? Maybe it’s just patent related? All we can be assured of in the end is that camera will keep getting better.
Fuji sold its fabs to Toshiba some years back, so that can’t be it.
Did not know. So the fabs they built four years back were just for lenses I guess (one for sure confirmed). The odd thing is they are still buying sensor packaging so that makes me think there is something pre finished product going on. Could be joint venture stuff?
For everyone fearing that this could mean worse quality:
Just look at the D7200. I think Toshibas sensors are “good enough” 😉
Humm I think that 7200 uses Sony while 7100 was based on a Toshiba.
Anyway, both are great!
No, same Toshiba sensor in both, but with different image signal processing for D7200.
I agree. I think it’s a wise move as to have less dependability on sony since they’re focusing mainly on full frame
D7200 is Sony sensor. D7100 Toshiba.
if you are so sure about it, where is the proof? 😉
–> See what EnPassant said
Early this summer I finally traded my 2 Nikon D300 bodies for a pair of D7200s. I was concerned about unintended consequences going from 12 MP to 24 MP. I need not have worried.
If Fuji decided to use a non-X-Trans sensor as good as the D7200s, I’d be pleased as punch. As it is, the D7200s have kinda back-benched my X-T1 and I’ve added or replaced four Nikon mount lenses.
Don’t get me wrong…I still prefer the X-Pro1 for most of my shooting. But what I’m really looking for in the X-Pro2 is EVF improvements, better information in the OVF, bigger buffer, faster bursts, generally improved internal information management…The kinds of features we’ve seen evolve on different Fuji platforms…Tweaked up a little so we don’t feel like we’re getting hand-me-down clothes from three older brothers.
I was under the impression that all the X-Trans sensors were made by Toshiba. Where did this whole Sony sensor rumor thing come from? I saw it here first and didn’t think much of it at the time but I don’t think I’ve seen any other publications suspect that Fuji has been using Sony’s sensors. Thoughts? Evidence?
The 16MP sensor in Fuji’s APS-C bodies are made by Sony. They are based on a 3+ year old design. They do use a smaller Toshiba sensor in another model(s). I don’t remember which one.
X20 & X30
X-Trans sensor is not simply a Sony sensor with a different filter in front. It works properly with a very small distance from the last lens element to the sensor, which is the secret of Fujinon lens quality. Sony Bayer sensors just can’t do that. Adapt a Leica M Apo Summicron to a Sony FF, and you’ll see it. So I think a X-Trans2 will be a very elaborate effort. What I do expect is a generation step forward in sensor readout and signal processing, which can mean better autofocus, faster sequence shooting, faster jpeg generation and better video capability. That’s where Fuji X has been lagging.
Fabio, I think you got that wrong.
The reason for the different performance is not X-Trans, it’s the lenses. Leica lenses were built for analogue film which can accurately record light rays coming in at less of an angle than digital sensors. That’s why Leica can’t just buy any full frame sensor and stick it in their digital M cameras – they need custom micro-lenses to improve corner performance if I remember correctly. Fuji lenses have been designed from the ground up for digital sensors with such a short flange distance and therefore do not show that problem.
From everything I have read, X-Trans is just that: a Sony sensor with custom CFA.
All current Leica M lenses were redisigned after the digital age. They are much more telecentric than previous generations of lenses, designed for film. Still a Sony FF Beyer sensor cant’ handle them in an optimal way. You see it clearly in the dimensions of Sony E lenses: they are quite longer thhan Fuji X lenses. I still think there is more than simply a X-Trans filter array on an otherwise conventional sensor in the current generation of X cameras.
Think in one hand and crap in the other. See which one fills up first. Talk about magic fairy dust or secret sauce or whatever els helps you sleep at night. It is a Sony sensor with a gimmicky CFA that does not do what it was meant to do per Fuji’s own words.And you can’t compare how Leica lenses behave on Sony FF sensors in comparison to the Fuji, as the Fuji has a cute little crop sensor that does not extend to the very edges of the image circle.
You mean X-Trans III. X-Trans II is what we have now.
Based on so little info, here and 43rumors have generated quite a bit traffic, which shows how desperate the non-Sony MLC user community is for some breakthrough.
Hi,
Today I bought a XF 16mm in a big photography store in Canada.
I chatted with the salesman about the lens, about my camera (X-T1) and his camera (a X-E2) which have same sensor.
He told me that he is sparing his cash in order to buy a X-PRO 2 in next february since Fuji’s reps dropped the big thing to know : it will come with the organic sensor.
B.S. or not?
B.S.
New sensor yes. Organic sensor no.
typically reps are the last to know any thing credible. I guess we will just have to wait! the 24mp Sony or Toshiba (Nikon d7200) are both great sensors. If they can get the latest gen version (with fast readout speed) for 4k video and electronic shutter etc it will be great
Yes, but will it be a FF organic? 😉
My guess is “yes”…FF APS-C.
Never said anything on Leica lenses on Fuji.
We make some progress on organic sensor..will be released 2018 🙂
Before Mid September, so it’s a couple of days to go. Let see what kind of bluffing Fuji is doing.
Isn’t it mid-sept today?