SAR reader Per Kylberg sent me this:
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Many complain about Sony menu system and user interface. In my professional work with virtual systems, the thing that differentiates between a success implementation is the usability. Easy to learn and use UI equals not only happy users, management see lead time go down and quality up and thus are happy too.
Below is my idea about a more logical, photographer perspective, menu system. It would be interesting to see how a discussion and proposals from SAR community can improve this starting point menu organisation!
Complain and propose!
Background
As with most camera manufacturers, Sony rightfully are critizised for the camera user interface and in particular for the menues. At the presentation of the A7Rmk2 a Sony official was asked about the UI and menues. The reply was (as I remeber): ”Menues are up to the engineers to decide”.
Engineers are very good at product development, yes. But they are not experts in using the products! Being in technical documentation and managing virtual systems (in automotive) for 40+ years, I have plenty knowledge from both sides of the matter. Engineers are great! They develop excellent cameras with great functionality! But the user interface should be developed by experts in UI and usage.
The reason for this is that engineers, naturally, think ”inside – out”. UI needs be developed ”outside – in! By UI experts
”Outside” are we: the photographers.
As – is analyse
The A7 cameras have about 17 outside physical controls. Nikon D8xx have 32 of them if I remember right.
In the menu structure the A7 has:
– 6 main menues
– 28 no-name sub menues
– 153 execution commands
Where is the logic in this hierarchical build? What is for instance the difference between ”Camera settings” and ”Custom settings”? And why no-name menues? There are 22 execution commands concerning focusing, spread out in 10 different no-name submenues under two different main menues. Why?
”Maybe To-be” alternative A – hierarchial structure
To reach execution commands, there should be no time/energy consuming search. The structure must have an easy to understand and remember structure. There must be a clear logic based on how photographers think. This should a core issue for Sony.
Below is my discussion proposal consisting:
12 Main menues
14 Named sub menues
153 execution commands
| Photo/video setup | ||||
| image quality | mode and setting | Shutter | Flash | Display |
| -image size | Drive mode | E-front curt Shutter | Flash mode | Grid line |
| -aspect ratio | Auto Mode | Silent shooting | Flash comp | Live view display |
| RAW/JPG Format) | Scene select | Auto slow shutter | Red eye redux | Auto review |
| Long exposure NR | Reset EV comp | Finder/Monitor | ||
| High ISO NR | Bracket settings | |||
| Color space | Zoom setting | |||
| Steady shot | ||||
| Steady shot settings | ||||
| Ten last used | ||||
| My menu | ||||
| JPG unique | ||||
| Panorama size | S Auto img extract | |||
| Panorama direction | Soft skin detect | |||
| Creative style | Auto object framing | |||
| Picture effect | ||||
| Picture style | ||||
| Zoom | ||||
| Focusing | ||||
| General | AF | MF | ||
| Focus mode | Center lock-on AF | MF assist | ||
| Focus area | Smile face detect | Peaking color | ||
| Focus settings | Eye start aF | Peaking level | ||
| AF illum | Priority set in AF-S | Focus magnify time | ||
| AF drive speed | Priority set in AF-C | Focus magnifier | ||
| AF track sens | AF system | |||
| Disp cont Af area | Per AF | |||
| Phase detect area | Face registration | |||
| ISO and metering | ||||
| Exposure comp | Zebra | |||
| Exposure step | Exp,comp,set | |||
| ISO | ||||
| ISO auto | ||||
| Metering mode | ||||
| White bal | ||||
| DRO/ Auto HDR | ||||
| Video unique | ||||
| File format | Marker display | 4K output sel | ||
| record setting | Marker settings | |||
| dual video record | Video light mode | |||
| Movie | HDMI settings | |||
| Sound unique | ||||
| Audio record | ||||
| Audio record level | ||||
| Audio out timing | ||||
| Wind noise redux | ||||
| Audio level display | ||||
| Customizing | ||||
| Memory | Function menu set | Movie button | ||
| Memory recall | Custom key set | Dial/wheel lock | ||
| Disp button | My menu set | |||
| AEL with shutter | Dial setup | |||
| AF with shutter | Dial EV comp | |||
| Finder/monitor | Zoom ring rotate | |||
| Wireless and apps | ||||
| Send smartphone | WPS push | App list | ||
| Send Computer | Edit device name | Introduction | ||
| View on TV | DMAC address | |||
| NFC | SSID/PW reset | |||
| Airplane mode | Reset network set | |||
| Camera setup | ||||
| Control | Display | Help | Connect | Manage |
| Volume settings | Monitor brightness | Demo mode | Remote ctrl | Copyright info |
| APS-C/Super 35mm | Viewfinder brightness | Exposure set guide | USB conn | Format (card) |
| Release w/o lens | Finder color temp | Mode dilal Guide | USB power supply | Select rec folder |
| Release w/o card | Display quality | NTSC/PAL select | New folder | |
| AF micro adj | Display media info | File name | ||
| Lens comp | PWR save start time | Recover image DB | ||
| Audio signals | Version | |||
| Language | Setting reset | |||
| Date/time setup | Cleaning mode | |||
| Area setting | TC/UB settings | |||
| Playback | ||||
| Delete | ||||
| View mode | ||||
| Image index | ||||
| Display rotation | ||||
| Slide show | ||||
| Rotate | ||||
| Enlarge image | ||||
| Protect | ||||
| Specify printing | ||||
| Delete confirm |
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And what do you think?
124 Responses
Hmm. Well, I would have to disagree with the above. The comparison with the Nikon’s physical controls is not appropriate, as it is a bigger camera; simple as that. As to the rest, that’s simply another hierarchy, which still won’t satisfy everyone.
However, I do agree with the point that designers should be hired, as it is clear that there is an issue. That is not exclusive to Sony though, the whole list menu thing hasn’t changed at all since the advent of digital cameras.
Very good suggestion, but I disagree with:
“Zebra” = zebra is a video inherited feature, so it should belong to the Video menu.
Creativity. Menu organization is the part of the experiance that I’ve paid for. If the menu diving becomes a chore, I simply use my Sony when it’s absolutely needed and use my Fuji all other times 😉 and when I feel creative. I didn’t just purchase the camera because of specs. It only takes a few firmware upgrades. Fuji does it, so can Sony. If they listen
OK, use Sony when needed. Menu diving is not a problem with Sony because once you set up the camera properly, you may only go back into the menu to format the card. That’s all I need the menu for.
Very good idea. Although people have different priorities I, personally, would welcome this change.
Great job!
Thanks. This, and moving the focus area must be much faster. My idea is that the control wheel on the back of the camera should be used by turning the wheel. There should be certain sets of focus point layouts to choose from, and turning the wheel will quickly move the focus point from one area to another.
They should really hire an UI-expert that also is a photographer.
I use Flexible Spot in either Small, Med or Large. If I want to move the focus point, all I have to do is click the centre button and then move it in any direction with the 4 way wheel. What do you think could make this faster?
Not clicking a button before move.
Direct change by pressing the 4-way wheel. For the future, allowing diagonal movement, too, or a joystick. In time critical situations this extra-pressing of the center button sucks.
Too much work with all those diagonal movements. Can be easier done with touchscreen.
Yes, can be. If it is possible to still have one finger at the shutter button and use the thumb to move the focus point. However, if I need to take away either my left or right to change the focus point when looking through the VF I would prefer a joystick or better 4-way button.
Agreed, joystick is a must have despite there is touchscreen or not. I’m doing half of my changes “blindly” without looking at the camera, can’t do that with touchscreen.
How long does it take to move the focus point from left to right? Many seconds. By turning the wheel you can eliminate the button click (and still use the wheel’s other functions) und move the focus point in a fraction of a second.
If you do reportage style photography like weddings, where you have to react quickly, the current way is really too slow.
You can hold the joystick to do the same.
You mean holding the wheel when pressed in a direction? Much too slow for my taste. When I need to be fast, I still use my D800E.
On what camera?
On my A7 II this doesn’t work. If I press the middle button it does nothing.
However, if I press C2, then I to get into this mode.
Having this on the middle wheel-button would be slightly better I think. I sometimes fiddle trying to find C2 and I need to move my finger from the trigger button.
Have you done any custom assignment?
I’m on the A7RII now but I believe it was the same on my A7II. You must have the “Center Button” set to “Standard” in the Custom Key Settings, and must be using Flexible spot Small, Med. or Large as the focus point.
> click the center button
That makes it not instantaneous, as it is on the Canon and Nikon DSLRs all you folk want Sony to knock off. Focus point should be instantly movable via a thumb stick or Direction pad.
If you think Sony menu is bad, try Olympus.
I did, have owned two of them. You are right, Oly is worse. After using most brands, to me only Ricoh and Panasonic deserves “good”.
Agree. But we shouldn’t be applauding teams that are 3-8 because they’re better than win less teams (0-11). What we want is a winning team (11-0).
I just need an option to hide features I will never use. Same as hiding the icons on Apple TV. Simple!
I gave upon Sony (RX100/a6000/a7s) due to the overload of features and settings that I don’t need. Sadly as Sony is without doubt the forerunner of today’s technology for cameras but the user experience…
I can’t afford the Leica M60 which supports my needs so I compromise and buy the Leica Q. Back to what it’s all about. Photography.
My biggest beef is that only a small subset of options can be saved to memory, added to the function menu, or mapped to a custom key. Allow me to do those three things and I’ll put up with learning the ridiculous menu. Overall good layout though. I think 10 last used and my menu are redundant with the function menu (the function menu should just allow ANY menu option).
There is simply no better way to navigate complex menus than a highly responsive touchscreen interface. Unfortunately some mild attempts by Panasonic and Canon have succeeded in actually turning photographers AGAINST this idea.
Developments have also been mitigated by the false pretense that touchscreen interface means compromise on physical controls.
Imagine the horror of trying to navigate your smartphone with a wheel and directional buttons – you may just rather dive off a cliff.
The problem with touchscreen is that it is far too easy to change settings unintentionally.
If a toughscreen is used there needs to be some way to prevent unintended changes, and to detect /correct unintended changes if they happen.
Again, no. To get to the menu system you have to press the menu button. If that button is properly located, it won’t be hit unintentionally, and thus you wouldn’t be touching menus and changing settings unintentionally.
In terms of direct setting of things via touchscreen, that can be turned off, or, in better designs like Panasonic’s, you have to double touch (once in a specific spot to open the widgets you can set, once to set), which reduces the accidentally setting problem.
But for menus, a well-designed touchscreen is a huge plus, as Nikon showed on the D5500.
It is difficult to use a touch screen when you are looking through the viewfinder. Those of us with older eyes cannot quickly switch between viewfinder and LCD. Also, I would not want to be making menu selections with my nose.
I didn’t say remove the buttons, just add a touchscreen with an on/off switch
It’s easy to say lets have a better menu, but not quite so easy to desighn one.
Looking at this menu many functions are in places one would not expect them to be, and this menu would actually be more difficult th use that the current one.
You don’t give an example of an “out of place” item, so I’m left to guess that what you mean is “not in its current place.” In other words, you spent time learning and adjusting to a chaotic and haphazardly designed menu set, and now you don’t want anyone to take that away from you. Three things:
1. The issue with cameras is that they’re no longer approachable by the casual user. Someone coming from a Nikon system is going to have absolutely no idea why the Sony menus are organized as they are, and that is a detriment to potential sales. If you’re going to put hundreds of choices into a camera system, a NEW user needs to be able to make sense of them via structure and organization, and quickly.
2. Sony’s institutional history with the current set of menus is only about two generations old, unlike Nikon’s which is now arguably seven generations old. They already disrupted people going from the NEX UI to the current Alpha UI, yet they didn’t really solve the problems that needed solving. At some point soon they need to get it right or else we’re going to be stuck with the awkward system we currently have.
3. Your argument is actually false. There’s no reason why you can’t design a menu system that works two ways (the old way you want, and the new, better way the rest of us want). Yes, it’s more work and requires a “switch” somewhere (probably in the menus, how ironic ;~), but it can be done if there’s really lots of people like you that insist on things being where they are now.
“you spent time learning and adjusting to a chaotic and haphazardly designed menu set, and now you don’t want anyone to take that away from you”
1. The exact same can be said for any company and any user, including what is written in the article above. If you need an example of an out of place item from Kylberg’s proposal, why not put “High ISO NR” in “ISO and metering”? Why would ISO and metering be together? Why is Micro adjust not in Focusing? Etc. Now, the proposal is pretty good, but most of these decisions are just subjective. It is one size fits all replaced by another one size fits all.
2. Does that mean that Nikon’s menus are better?
3. Do we really believe that two sizes will fit all now?
Actually..as I look at it again it is kind of growing on me.
At first I mistook some of the rows for columns…but the functions now seem to be better seperated by logical catagories.
The biggest issue with the old interface is that similarfunctions are all over the menu.
Here for example Focus finctions and Image quality functions are all in one place.
Yeah, you can learn how to walk with cruches and a cane. And you could probably learn how to get about in a wheel chair quiet well. Face it, you’ve adapted to a substandard menu system because you chose to. And maybe you are satisfied. You will be ok then, when Sony makes some adjustments and modifications for the rest of us 🙂
Amen Thom, you are spot on!!!
One thing that Sony desperately needs is a “My Menu” like my new D750 has.
Then we would not have to wade thru all their seemingly senseless choices.
Whats the deal with “unique” in some of the menu items?
i want new zooms
FE 24-105/4
FE 100-300/4-5.6
and why not
FE 30-90/2.8 + FE 100-200/4 + FE 200-400/5.6
What does that has to do with the suggestion for a new menu?
Why should ? 🙂
Add a Q button like Fuji and a focus point toggle like the new Leica SL…that’s it…
My thoughts exactly.
I hardly ever use the main menu on my X-100s when out shooting.
And I used the focus point toggle all the time on the Canon DSLR’s I had earlier.
Given that computer/tablet/smartphone interfaces have long allowed for comprehensive customisation of the user interface then I wonder why the same can’t be done for cameras. Of course that makes much more sense with a touchscreen, but maybe some fresh thinking is called for.
Exactly! Apple is the best at UI and UX design. The only camera I know of to date which has adopted this kind of customization is the Leica T.
Sony should make the LCD a touch screen. Group each camera function into an individual icon. These could be simple clean icons, easily recognizable and labeled, that when pressed would show a pop-up menu or scrolling list of settings. Allow three or at most four tabs at the top or side of the screen UI. Then allow the user to select and rearrange their personally most used functions to the top visible rows of each tab screen. Much like the way we rearrange icons on our iPhones and iPads, (press & drag). You can even eliminate functions you never use from the viewable screens.
Each photographer is different, so everyone’s menu design would look different and could even be rearranged for specific photo shoots. Go look at the UI for the Leica T to see what is possible with a customizable touch screen menu system.
Heck yes! Someone is feeling my pain too. But are they listening?
I started shooting with minolta and then switched to a sony superzoom point and shoot back in the infancy of digital cameras…….i went through the whole owners manual and taught myself the menu settings, then experience and practice made it second nature….once a friend with a Nikon DLSR asked for help and neither of us could make heads or tails of where to find a particular setting….i bought a second hand Canon 40D and had to take the owners manual with me for a long time to figure out how to make changes as it didn’t make a lot of sense to me……i have since moved up to a Sony A99 and set the 3 “permanent” buttons to what i felt would work well for my type of shooting….first time i’d had this feature on a camera, well, darn it if the settings wouldn’t change as i trudged through fields shooting moving people as i would brush up against the wheels on the front and back with my hand……it all comes down to what you are used to, and changing a menu system would not only confuse us old timers, but would still be inherently wrong for those who liked the old way……..my main profession is home remodeling and when i switch from one brand of drill or saw, it takes some getting used to the new feel and how it works…..the answer lies in learning the menu system of your camera well, plan ahead and double check as you shoot…..
also, i own a samsung NX300 w/touch screen controls, love it, works fast and intuitively, but anyone want to hazard a guess how many times the focus point has been moved by my touching the screen while out and about? There will be problems with any system, the solution is to check, re-check and triple check as one shoots and learn the system well…….what works for one person may not work for another……..
thanks to Mr. Kylberg for writing this article and taking the time to lay out a well planned and thought out menu system…..my guess is if we had all started with this menu we’d be used to it, be able to use it well, and there would be some of us who would still grumble…..we just ain’t all made the same………
I would like to thank Mr. Kylberg for the work he has done and the time he spent. I don’t like the menu as well. But I quite agree the points you said. It is the matter to get used to your camera. I’m sure some users like you will be unhappy if Sony decide to change. This will be a hard decision. But no matter what the decision is, I really hope Sony could listen to our users voice and have some officials to post their opinions here and discuss with us. The people who watch this site are clear big fan of Sony.
This. Habit is what give you a “natural feeling” with things. Menus are just that. You get used to something and you know where it is. If Sony was what people were used to, Canon menus would also be deemed backwards or wrong.
My suggestion would be to simplify your gear, get used to it, maximise its potential.
THIS!
A person can learn to walk with a limp, does that mean that its the most effective means for walking for everyone? Natural or comfortable? It’s called efficiency and “best practices”. Ineficiency can lead to poor performance. And at times substandard results. How will you know? When the programmer/engineer makes the changes. You will discover your learned poor habits. Others may chose not to learn the substandard habits and ask for changes. Just because you do something awkwardly, doesn’t mean that you are doing it in the most effective way.
Brilliant. The arrangement above may not be perfect either, but it’s worlds better than what Sony have given us, and I hope they listen. Their menu is in major need of a revamp.
Please, Sony, please!!!! A menu with this structure would be amazing!
More than the menus, I think what annoys me the most with Sony cameras is the Focus Magnifier that is full screen, you can’t keep the framing while doing the focus. Panasonic does it right, Fujifilm does it more than right, Sony should definitely look at it.
Per,
great ideas and work!!!
Thanks very much.
We should start a fund raising project for Sony, if they can not effort are good UI designer.
and a donation button for you and your work :-))
The ONLY thing Sony needs to add is a custom menu for quick access to 5-10 most used options. Give me that and I’m happy.
this is Fn button, isn’t it?
It is.
I don’t have this on my a6000, a77, a99, and I didn’t think it was on the a7s.
Fn button brings up a favourites menu?
Fn menu is on A7S and A6000 at least. Can program the functions available from this menu and is an overlay menu rather than a ‘deep’ menu. Not ‘all’ functions can be programmed to it though.
Oh I see, that’s not what I meant then. I want a fully customisable menu screen like on my 5D3, where I literally only need to access one menu all day. If it only has half the available options then it’s a bit useless.
But it IS a fully custonizable menu
You can’t assign anything you want to the positions in the fn button menu. It is limited to shooting functions only.
Where’s the format command?
Really what is needed is to let the FN capture more options so you do not have to go into the menu. These are really annoying not having them in the FN area
Format
Review on/off
APC Mode
If I had those in the FN section, It would be rare to go into the menu section. I have no issue with setting it up as Per has it maybe some tweaks.
But the real problem is the ability to have more options in the FN and Custom buttons. Sony just need to open everything up to them so we as the shooter can determine what works best for us. Still and Video folks also have far different needs as well
Kudos to someone who actually recommended a solution instead of just whinning about a problem.
Once I set up the camera the way I want it (and I have been able to do so the same way since NEX 7 consistently to other Sony cams i’ve owned) I have only needed to go back to the menu to format the card.
As a former Nikon and Canon user, I have also seldom had the need to go into their menus to set up anything after the first couple of weeks of use (at which point you learn the camera and know what it can and cannot do and how you want it to work for you)
Since Sony customization of buttons is second to none, I can make my cameras recall more functions without the menu than I did with my 5D2 D700 or D2x.
That’s ideal. But for me there are a few menu items that cannot be mapped to a button, saved in a memory recall, or added to the function menu. I have to dive into the menus a lot for these: settings effects, auto review, APS-C mode. IMHO the biggest issue is that the customization options are highly arbitrary. I can deal with the menus if they weren’t so modal and everything could at least be saved in a custom memory and function menu.
Not everything is customizable. We wouldn’t be here discussing this if everything was customizable. We would be just making our own menus system 🙂 right?
Can you elaborate more on what is right and more right that Sony does wrong?
Panasonic only does the focus magnifier on a portion of the image, where you place your focus point. You can keep the framing while doing fine manual focusing.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yHglAPrMwLA/U1Qoyw1JYtI/AAAAAAAAI2Q/FkbCWveVlg4/s1600/lumix+gm1+focus+peaking+and+pip+focus+assist.JPG
Fujifilm actually gives you two images: one with the full image and one with the focus magnifier: http://jonasraskphotography.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/evf.jpg?w=740&h=555
Or you have the split image:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7FR3l6S12JA/maxresdefault.jpg
Sony Focus magnifier is full screen, so you don’t see your frame anymore. Plus the focus peaking is useless, usually almost not visible unless you put it to High, but then it’s everywhere in the frame when you don’t use the Focus Magnifier.
Amazing and practical menu layout suggestions. Thank you for sharing.
Man, people charge to do this sort of consulting, he just did it for free!
Thank you Per Kylberg ! Hope that Sony will read and consider…
They should consult pro photographers, compared to the whole development budget this will cost nothing !
Redesigning them shouldnt just be about moving options to different tabs/pages. This wouldn’t help them feel less cluttered, just in a different order (which would be more annoying than leaving them where they are).
Sony interface is clumsy & “sporadically” non intuitive. Thank you Per.
Sometimes I think the only solution to create the best menu for everyone is to make it fully customisable. In this menu user can relocate commands or groups of commands for own favor, create own folders, rename commands and folders, mark them with color/bold type etc. or even hide commands which are not supposed to be used. This would be intuitive for everybody.
I think this is the best solution. Have an app on a computer that you can choose the functions you want. I shoot professionally – but even then I only use a few options. Why should i be scrolling through 50 different tabs/menus to find some thing. Even the most basic functions- “format, is hidden deep in the menus.
Nikon and Canon have things a lot better set out (canon a lot better than nikon- although nikon has more dedicated buttons). The canon is so simple I can find factions without searching- its logical where it is. If sony fixes this I may not need my 5dsr with me overtime I shoot and rely completely on sony’s very good a7rII.
At the moment I shoot jobs with my sony when the job is well paced- and not to stressful, but when things get rushed I pick up the canon as it so much easier to use. This is almost completely due to its menus and well thought out buttons. Sony has the features and performance, but really has no idea how to make the cameras usable (look at the video camera menus on the F5/f55/fs700/fs7!) , I don’t think its going to improve any time soon unless they let the user design the layout they need.
Paul Ross Jones
great post! the custom buttons need some improvement too, eg. it should be possible to toggle between AF-S and AF-C. And please allow us to create “macro buttons” like “switch to AF-S and small spot”.
This would be awesome but unfortunately the culture at this and other companies is way too much NIH (Not Invented Here)
yeah, maybe, but the MMPIADM culture (Make More Profit In A Declining Market) is stronger than that. And if they can implement a better menu in new cameras (and perhaps even update the old ones, though I really don’t know if that’s technically doable), I’m pretty sure they’re going to attract more customers.
Hey Andrea, is there anyway to forward this to Sony Tokyo?
Maybe we should start a change.org petition… if it is funny and goes viral (like the Hitler video did) maybe someone at Sony would start taking the matter seriously.
They could maybe implement some edited Olympus menus, that already will be a big step forward.
What a great post and discussion starter, thanks Per Kylberg.
A sensible user focused simple easily understood menu structure would be so nice!
I personally like the idea of the “last ten” used, that would more than cover the things I occasional change on the fly, maybe it could be accessed by the Function button so you can get to it very quickly?
Using a tripod a lot, having quicker/instant access to the Image Stabilisation on off would be brilliant, next would be format, beyond that I rarely need to go into the menu once my camera is set up.
It would be interesting for the Admin to run a survey which we could add to the things we use buried deep in hard to get menus often…after our cameras are set up, I suspect it would be not many.
If Sony read these pages this may be useful or the Admin could pass it on, we have a voice and Sony are listening, a solution based discussion would be so nice to see coming off these pages!!!!
Well done. What defines Photo/Video setup and Camera setup? I think Photo/video menu are items that matter when the shutter is released. Camera setup are items that don’t matter when the shutter is released. Perhaps move the Display items from Photo/Video to Camera setup. That would put: Grid Line, Live View Display, Auto review, Finder/Monitor in Camera Setup.
Right now the menu system is one of the if not the most important weak point of the Cameras.
For me it is not clear why a majour smartphone producer like sony gets not a great menu (with a touch screen)
At the moment Canon has IMHO a better user interface on his premium compact cameras (like G7X)
The presented menu system seems well thought out. it would be a game changer removing one of the largest obstacles.
I’m probably the outlier, but I quite liked the old NEX-generation menus vis a vis the new generation menu on the a6000. Things were at least intuitive to some degree as to where they were. If you stopped on an item, it would pop up a dialogue box that tells you what that particular setting does – which I find immensely helpful given the abundance of fancy terminology in photography + terms that manufacturers make up to describe their technologies. I see the suggestion here more akin to that old menu, with another hierarchy in place.
Thank you Per.
Before you send this off to Sony: add some way to format the card, an option to regulate the EVF/LCD switch sensitivity and on the a6000 dampen the shutter noise.
He has Format (card) under Camera Setup>Manage. it’s not a bad place for it, though you might have been expecting to see it under Playback.
Oops. Thanks for the correction.
It’s a nice attempt, but I don’t know as it really eliminates the confusion. Some points:
Everything except for the first item under General in Focusing relates to AF. So why aren’t they under AF?
Same thing for AF micro adjust, which I wouldn’t think to look for under Camera Setup>Control.
I don’t think I’d expect to find WB under ISO and Metering.
Steadyshot is under Image Quality? Seems odd.
Camera Setup>Control and Customizing have too many items that could go in either spot, like AEL with Shutter, AF with Shutter, Language, Area Setting. I think this is a semantics issue, because I see what you’re trying to do here: put all the configurable buttons under Customizing and all the settings under Camera Setup>Control. But since these buttons are also controls, it’s not clear where to look at first. The naming might need to be finessed.
DRO/HDR is jpg-specific, so probably should go there.
What’s the difference between Finder/Monitor in Photo/Video Setup>Display and Finder/Monitor in Camera Setup>Display? For that matter, can’t these whole sections be consolidated?
I think this is a really worthy attempt and a good starting point. It just needs a lot of massaging. One of the problems Sony faces is that there are lots of people coming from other systems to the A7 and other E-mounts, and they’re used to their own menu systems. I hear comments from a lot of people to the effect of wanting the Alpha menus to be more like Canon or Nikon, or at least drawing heavily from them. There’s a bit of arrogance in that, because as a long-time Minolta/Sony user, I actually was drawn to the system for its ease of use. I find Canon and Nikon menus to be confusing (and in Canon’s case, downright loathsome).
And yes, the original menus from the A100, A700, A900 and that generation are getting way more cluttered these days with all the new features and could use a freshening up, but I think in no way that Sony should ape Canon or Nikon in this regard. They’ve already bent over backwards to cater to users of other systems by allowing the adaptation of their lenses to this mount. Now they need to change their menu architecture, as well? Learn it, or buy another brand.
Yes absolutely. And they are going to. Just as they updated the firmware for the lossy RAW. Sony engineers haven’t been over backwards for anyone, Sony is in the business to make money. Plain and simple. Its the responsibility of the user and buyer to complain and voice their opinion. That’s how you get changes and adaptations. We’re not talking about anything like rocket science here, just merely software changes and updates. You think that the engineer will cry about making some simple menu changes? Not hardly. Sony pops out a camera every 6 months. And they still haven’t released the true flagship model yet. They are still in the quasi beta stages
You have heard of standards and “best practices” right?
By all means, do elaborate.
A really good re-design but the real solution for SONY hundreds of other system developers is: Go back and re-hire the UI Designers and let them build the paper-prototype and User Manual… THEN have the Engineers and Code Boys make it.
I like the “ten last used.”
There should be a “hot chick” button. So like, it can instantly make any chick hot when you take her pic. I’d actually settle for a hot chicken button that makes a chicken sandwich instantly appear in my hands when on a shoot. Either will do.
I would combine your “Video unique” and “Audio unique” into a single “Video” menu. Put “Movie button” and “NTSC/PAL select” there too. All the Movie stuff in one place. Being primarily a still photographer, I could then skip that menu.
Your Focusing>General items are all AF-only except for “Focus Mode” and “Focus Settings” (whatever that is). That makes AF menu very full. Not sure how to logically divide it.
This in an excellent topic. The very first thing I would do is to split stills photos and video/audio menus.
These things should be implemented on paper then coded then tested by Sony Artist photographers then finalised until deemed to be correct.
I would love a “Rating” button, so I can star the photos I like in camera, to remind me when I get into lightroom
me too!!
That is the wrong mentality. There shouldn’t be any pre-assigned buttons. ALL buttons and ALL functions need to be ASSIGNABLE.
So what you need is a “Rating Function” that is ASSIGNABLE to ANY BUTTON.
Currently only 32 functions assignable but the camera has way more functions than that.
Just don’t make it look like a cell phone! Application menu it’s not good. It should have the same appearance than the rest of the manue. And remove all those white balance modes. They are more confusing. Just let the auto and Kelvin mode.
Per Kylberg has clearly given the menu design more thought than any of the rest of us. He now owns this. Perhaps he is willing to consider our feedback over the next week or so and then come back with a revised proposal? You can bet that Sony tracks SAR. Clearly Sony could benefit from a better menu design.
For cameras like the a6000, it’s important that there’s a great UI to begin with.. because even people like me- who eventually want to know the in’s and out’s of the camera- expect to be able to pick it up and use most of the functions immediately.
The customizing buttons bit at first seemed like an unnecessary chore. Eventually I got to it– but designing a system that intuitively allows you to customize the menu is in another league, meaning, if Sony is having a hard time making the default menu system work, I don’t see them able to pull off a system that allows you to design your own system. Not at first. But it would be a good option to have tucked away for heavy users
I am not a software engineer and you are welcome to disabuse me, but in my opinion the most complicating part in programming an UI is to design it’s hierarchy and usability. If you leave it in hands of customers themself you kill two birds with one stone. I am sorry but I don’t understand, why is it much easier to customise the connections between software and hardware (e.g. buttons), and why is it “in another league” to customise the UI software parts only?
Similar to Paul Ross Jones above I believe that a lot of photographers are normally using a fraction of menu entrys only. Obviosly these are mostly pro who simply have no time or need to play with all that fancy stuff. For me, I would like to create my own one-two folders with entrys I do really need and the rest can be keeped hidden somewhere in the back rooms of the menu. That would be a really clear and easy menu, which is perfectly intuitive for me since it is a product of my own needs and intuition.
I might not have explained myself very well there. I meant that designing a software UI (as you describe) is extremely hard. So to design a great software UI that also allows the building of a new UI within itself, is an even greater challenge– and it would mean the original UI was absolutely rock solid (which it isn’t in Sony’s case).
And I agree, to give the user the ability to *truly* customize their own UI would be a very dangerous thing to do.
My comments on how the hardware interfaces with the UI were meant to be taken separately.
Interesting post and good work with your redesign. It’s amazing how incredibly hard it is to create a really good UI in general– let alone one that functions well for both casual shooters and advanced shooters. I like your groupings by function, and the “last 10” should be a given on any camera system.
Personally I don’t think the Sony menus are terrible because there is an order and it can be moved through very quickly, but the groupings and namings need refinement. If I were to give the Sony UI a grade it’d be a B-. But there is more room for improvement than I previously thought.
I think the biggest issue that currently limits the UI (software aside) are the physical controls that give you access- as well as how quickly they allow you to move/access the software. For instance, the wheel on the back of the a6000 should have been larger, more grippy, and not so easily toggled while scrolling. It feels flimsy and cheap. The wheel on the back of the a7rII feels significantly better, but it too could use a little more heft. The wheel on the back of the 5D mkIII has the right size, shape and “heft” to me- but Sony could improve on a wheel like that by putting the tri-navi joystick in the middle instead of just one, dumb button.
I would rather have really solid buttons with great feedback and intuitive placement over a slick touchscreen. This is a camera, not a smart phone. The touchscreen is inevitable, though, however it shouldn’t ever be necessary, nor should it compromise the tactile, graphics-only mode in any way.
Another big limiting factor- independent of the software- is the screen. The screen on the back of the a6000 is too small and the quality wanting compared to the a7 and almost all DSLRs out there. There simply isn’t enough vertical room to give the user any visual “space” to breathe (or list enough options at a time). Sony should be embarrassed to be using the low-res, damm-awful 2.7″ monitor in the a68. That should have died with the a58 and never come back for any use- not even in a My First Sony.
The UI could also use just a little (subtle) background color to help users remember similar groups of function. The all black, white and orange text-based design feels a bit like a DOS program from the 80’s or 90’s. If Sony could use the designers that created the PS3 visual design (not menu groups or hierarchy) it could look much more modern, clean and pretty.
Interesting things to think about- thanks, and nice work Per Kylberg.
I could be 100% happy with a canon style pick your favorite menus and make your own quick menu thingie. Much more logical layout than the existing one though.
On the whole you’ve a really excellent approach to things that would be an improvement on Sony’s system. There’s a few suggestions worth considering, especially moving all the video & audio commands to one heading, that as a still photographer I can ignore. However I fail to see a clear distinction between your 2 “Display” Sub-menus, one in Photo/video setup and the other in Camera setup. They should be consolidated.
The organization seems better. I would like to take it one set further. Sony should make the OS camera independent.
We should all be able to choose to upgrade our camera OS with new features just like a smartphone. Hardware specific features (like ISO) can vary from model to model (like phones) but the basis can remain so all users can take advantage of certain things such as menu structure enhancements or additions to granular control. Then there would be less moaning about firmware updates for some cameras versus others. Firmware changes can then only be reserved for major issues (like the a7s2 black hole sun bug).
It would be nice if a user can choose which card to save video files to when shooting with dual cards.
It has some nice ideas but let me give an idea to the ‘complainers’ out here.
You probably come from Canon/Nikon, or you’re old school. We get it: you refuse to learn anything other than that you’re used to. Sony is different? let’s change it! How about a simple NO. Ok, that was the sarcasm part, now comes the serious part:
How about you spend the time writing changes, complaining etc with going out for 1 day, using your Sony camera, and do some shooting? I’m sure you’ll get used to the menu within 1 day of shooting! And if you don’t? Just go out another day of shooting! It’s not like you have to learn to fly an airplane or anything. I’ve been using Sony for a few months and I’m a technology friendly guy. I easily adjust to ‘new’ or different technology. People nowadays should do the same. Technology evolves and not everything is the same. What you may find logic might not make sense for others. In the end, you just have to use it for a while to get familiar with it.
So: stop complaining, start shooting!
Ok, new skool… I guess you use both Android and iphone, and/or use them interchangeably, got used to them in a day or 2. Probably use both PC and MAC. No complaints at all, huh? Ambidextrous too? Jerk off with both hands too?
It’s funny that all you say is actually true. I have a Macbook Pro and a ‘normal’ pc at home. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Love your name btw 🙂
Ok, flame off… lets be honest now… obviously you notice that in terms of use and productivity one beats the other. I played around with an a7II, thought the controls were convoluted and decided not to invest. I will get an a7rIII or a7sIII if it changed its menu… I don’t want to hunt around the menu everyday… and I change stuff like from 24p to 60p often… aperture, shutter and ISO aside… those should be in the layout already. I couldn’t for the life of me figure out how to activate focus peaking… and I played with it for a good 4 hours before I gave up. If you are on a paid job, you do not have time to be shuffling around like an idiot.
I think you’re overreacting here. Those things you mention can be put on a custom button easily. They are not that hard to reach. 4 hours and you didn’t find focus peaking? You’re flaming more than me. I can agree with you that some things might be a bit hard to find at first as they’re ‘different’. But spending a day with the camera will normally get you all set. There’s a lot of customisation too so you can set up everything how you want. Getting into a new system can take some time to get used to. If you don’t have time for that, better not switch ever.
Think what you want, but certain things aren’t suppose to be that hard to do… there is intuitive and then there is… wtf is that? In my opinion, it doesn’t matter whether its Sony, Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Samsung and otherwise… you should be able to play around with it and figure it out. If you are constantly going into the user manual to figure things out, then its not really intuitive is it? BTW, I wasn’t exaggerating about the focus peaking thing. I kept looking for it in the menu, couldn’t find it. My cousin brought it to a birthday party and I was playing around with it, so I didn’t have the user manual to tell me where focus peaking was….
Be nice Albert , and not condescending :). Sony is in the process of reworking the menus a bit. There isn’t anything so “new” about the menus either. I’ve been using Sony cameras and video imaging equipment for over 20 years. I use Sony, Blackmagic, Red, Fuji, and Canon also. Some of us work in the tech industry. The Sony A7 menu system isn’t Sony’s best work. Familiarity has nothing to do with it. Some functions/locations should be intuitive. It’s the menus. Not the technology. If you can deal with crude menus, then you won’t mind them being modified a little. There aren’t a lot of new photography or video functions really. Same functions, just a few more options.
Can agree with you there. Maybe my post sounds a bit harsh, and I wouldn’t mind changes to the menu system at all. Sometimes I just feel there’s so much complaining over a rather ‘non issue’. But yes, I guess some parts can use a bit more logic 🙂
Per,
Just one suggestion. You should consider duplicating menu items where appropriate. For instance, White Balance clearly belongs in ISO and metering (where you put it) but it is also Jpeg specific. Maybe it should be in both?
Forget telling the company how you want it. You should be able to customize the menu and rearrange the menu the way you want it (which can differ from person to person).
I wish Sony would just implement this menu structure. Perfect.
Oh man. That Panasonic solution just made me rethink all of this again.
The Fujifilm solution isn’t so good. You need to look left and right to frame and refocus.
Split level is also not so good.
Best would be Panasonic mixed with peaking.
Sony, if you truly want to innovate and lead the industry, please consider releasing a firmware SDK so software developers can create their own user interfaces. This would offer a level of customization beyond simple Apps or plug-ins. It would allow UIs to be developed to appeal to the entire range of customers from consumers to professionals. An interface could even be developed to allow customers to customize their own unique interface, exposing controls and features optimal for their own unique workflow. Otherwise with a one-size-fits-all interface, there’s simply no way such a complex device as a camera can be all things to all people. And customers today expect more customization options then ever before. If you truly want the world to BE MOVED, please consider this suggestion. Thanks.