The Contax Hybrid Mount Camera with a combination of two bayonets (courtesy of fotocommunity)
_ _ _
[UDPATE: there is an update to this post here, with additional rumors shared by joofie]
The wild rumors at dchome
First off: these rumors do NOT come from FR-sources, and I publish them 1:1 as they surfaced on the web. I say this because I’d love to prevent the usual comments that rumors of my sources are completely unreliable. Sure, in 2014 I’ve shared 14 wrong rumors… however, 14 wrong out of 85 verifiable rumors (this means 71 rumors were correct – 83.5% hit rate). So you see, I try to be as accurate as possible.
However, I opened this blog because I love the X-Series, but also because I like to speculate about rumors. So I think we can sometimes also discuss some rumors that sound a bit weird.
That being said…. let’s start:
The information was shared by a Forum Member called joofei at dchome (translated by a non native English speaking FR-reader – thanks). During the discussion on the forum, joofei continued to share more details. I’ve added them in the list (Nr.13-14) (I relied on google translator. If there is any Chinese reader who can make a more accurate translation, then just drop it in the comments)
1) X-Pro2 will not be launched on first quarter of 2015, but there are 2 SPEC… [FUJIRUMORS: It’s probably correct that the X-PRO2 won’t come in the first quarter. I’m not sure what “but there are 2 SPEC” means. Probably 2 versions (“species”).]
2) XF20 F2.8 (equal = 30MM / pancake) or XF18 F2.8(equal = 27MM / pancake), will be launching soon.
3) XF35 F1.4(II) , better IQ & bokeh & focus speed a bit faster than XF23, price over HK$ 4000 [FUJIRUMORS: there were rumors in 2014 about it. Apparently Fuji tested an APD version of it, but then dismissed it – source Fuji Manager]
4) OCT-DEC will be a big cannon show up (4XX) (*Forum ppl believe is 140 -400mm)
5) DUAL MOUNT PRODUCT may launch in mid of the year [FUJIRUMORS: My comment about this down below]
6) New phase auto focus system (can compete with DSLR), will come out in X-Mount. [FUJIRUMORS: why not? Sony’s bestseller, the A6000, shows the way]
7) High Speed Pro Flash light, synchronize rate improve to pro standard [FUJIRUMORS: New flash coming in spring]
8) Body will back light prevention setting system (2015 mid / year-end)
9) New fix lens camera will launching before March (” X ” 1 – 2 model) [FUJIRUMORS: He could mean the XQ2, since it was shared on the dchome forum before the official announcement of the XQ2]
10) X-M1 successor already develop, just do not know will launch or not
11) Fuji Japan still analyses a program that user by pay some amount of $$ and can upgrade the part (item (5)- (8) ). They hope user can use the model for longer time without refresh model too fast.
12) XF16 1.4 – Hot summer launching
13) google translated: “X-E3 has a row you wait for” [FUJIRUMORS: sounds like Fuji is debating (has a row) regarding the X-E2 successor, which eventually is expected to come in 2016, since, according to joofei… (see Nr.14)
14) X-E3 => 2016
A lot of stuff. For now I’ll just make a short comment about that “dual mount product“. Sounds like a camera that has the ability to attach current X-mount lenses but also lenses with a different mount… a sort of hybrid mount camera. Something like the mount of the Contax rangefinder made from the 1930ies to the 50ies, which was “in fact the combination of two bayonets.” (source Camerapedia)
Ok, now I have to fire off some emails. If I can debunk (or maybe confirm) any of these rumors, I’ll post an updated here on FujiRumors
stay tuned,
facebook, google+, RSS-feed and twitter
NEW X-DEALS
X-SERIES CAMERAS
X-T1 + 18-135 WR (save $200 – price $1699): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
X-T1 + 18-55 (save $100 – price $1599): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
X-T1 Black Body (save $100 – price $1199): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
X-T1 Graphite Body (save $100 – price $1399): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
X-E2 Body (save $100 –Â price $699): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
X-E2 + 18-55 (save $100 – price $999): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
X30 (save $100 – price $499): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XQ1 (save $100 – price $299): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama
XF LENSES
XF 18-135mm (save $200 –Â price $699): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XF 18mm (save $200 – price $399):Â BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XF 60mm (save $200 – price $449): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XF 23mm (save $150 –Â price $749): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XF 56mm (save $150 – price $849): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XF 14mm (save $150 – price $749): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XF 10-24mm (save $150 – price $849):Â BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XF 27mm (save $150 – price $299): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XF 35mm (save $100 – price $499):Â BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XF 18-55mm (save $100 – price $599):Â BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
XF 55-200mm (save $100 – price $599): BHphoto / AmazonUS / Adorama /
106 Responses
Like the sound of a 30mm equivalent pancake.
X & M dual mount?
Only one will live on.
I don’t see the point. If M isn’t hardware coupled, you have no way to properly focus an M lens without later resorting to stop-down exposure.
If these are true, I have a hard time seeing the X-Pro2 and the dual mount camera be two different camera bodies, being so close in time and for the same kind of users. I find it more believable if the X-Pro2 *is* the one with the dual mount feature, as one of the main news. Edit: Actually, this goes for several points above, all those “mid/late 2015” ones seemingly aimed for pro users.
A dual mount X-Pro 2 would be fantastic, especially if it means full frame sensor with ability to use existing lenses in crop mode – the best of both worlds (full frame for standard and ultrawide angle-lenses; and crop mode for telephoto and macro). If that is possible, it would be a fantastic camera. And, hopefully the sensor would not be X-Trans.
Stop fooling around, Fuji and get the new sensor/AF out there. X-Pro 2 would be nice, X-T2 is essential. 20mm pancake? Ok, if it has a modern focus motor, why not.
Could “Dual Mount” be a bad translation of “dual card slot”? That would make much more sense to me since there have been rumors about a dual card camera ever since the first X-T1 rumors popped up.
Well as a Chinese I can tell you it is dual mount. Apparently not card slot. And when being asked what exactly it is, he said the term is already telling a lot.
The interesting part is he was mentioning the ETA in a anbiguous way in Chinese, which could be interpreted as the middle of this year or within this year.
Maybe “dual mount” is like Sony’s E and FE mount. Really one mount but two sensor sizes. That would be an interesting way to let people migrate to FF (or larger). Existing glass would work in crop mode and you could use new MF or FF glass as it becomes available. Would make for a great “XPro2.”
Two words: flange distance.
Why would it matter if it’s all mirrorless?
I’d say the bayonet diameter is an obstacle.
Both are obstacle. Sony has problems with wide angle lenses because of flange distance, and E-mount has a larger bayonet too..
I think he means they don’t *have to* put the rear element right up against the sensor. They can design the lenses any way they want if necessary .. including empty space.
Perhaps the new body will support a full-frame sensor with an inter-changeable mount assembly. The APSC mount will be smaller in diameter and will use a fraction of the sensor area whereas the full-frame mount will be larger and will use the full sensor area. Just one camera and essentially two models being sold with either mount, full-frame or APSC. Pick one – you can always upgrade or downgrade later. Now that’s some kind of future-proofing.
To go “FF or larger”, Fuji would have to increase both bayonet size and the flange distance. Now, how exactly do you propose using the current X-mount lenses with this new mount?
I’m not proposing that, I agree with you. It’s just the flange distance problem can be solved, just like samyang is doing with their slr glass when adapting to mirrorless. But I don’t see a way to get around the small diameter of current x-mount.
18mm f/2.8 pancake?!
Are fujifilm running out of things to do?
The existing 18 is small enough, f/2 and really quite good. And cheap!
maybe an XC version of the original XF 18mm?
If it’s true then I assume pancake = no aperture ring and xc. I wonder why the 27 wasn’t an xc.
the 27 has fantastic IQ, only drawback is minimum focus distance.
Had one, sold it. It just didn’t feel right on an X-pro. And the obvious lack of aperture ring made ruined the system for me.
Yes, why not having some light and small prime lenses in the XC range?
I would like to see a 23mm f1.8 or f2 the size and price-point of the 18mm for street-photography on a reasonable budget.
Maybe the rumored 20mm may fit this gap.
A 23mm pancake would be a better seller IMO. Also ‘spec’ is probably specification.
Highly unlikely imho.
If these rumors turn out to be true, will you count them as part of your success rate this year?
of course not. I only consider rumors that come from my sources for the hit-rate rating.
If you check the 2014 rating, you’ll see that only rumors shared by FR-sources are listed.
Dual mount ? hmm… My X-E1 can already enjoy different mount thanks to his short flange distance and ebay adapters !
Fuji, can the we finally get a weather-sealed x200?
For years Fuji had a relationship with Nikon, using their bodies and lenses for the wonderful S3,S4,etc. But I don’t see any overwhelming need for such a thing currently. As for the two versions, Nikon consolidated the D800/D800E to a single D810. Sony has gone the other way, A7,A7r,A7s,A7II.
Who knows. I will be very surprised if any of that information is correct. I do believe we will see vastly improved continuous tracking focus and a 24MP sensor in the new X-Pro. I also believe Fuji will not wait too much longer before they update to an X-T2. It is a great money maker for Fuji and they need that. Once they see a real decline in the current X-T1 sales they will get into the next cycle.
Stop messing around and drop X-Trans. So many more photographers would switch if this had the latest, excellent, Sony sensors, myself included. I loved Fuji ergonomics, but the sensor isn’t as great as people like to claim, IMO.
You are not a photographer.
Hi, I am a photographer, and a professional one, and a Fuji fan. But I agree with the above commenter that the X-Trans sensor is overrated.
I also agree that it’s “perfectly fine” – but there’s a certain lack of detail, caused by the aggressive noise reduction forced on the user by Fuji which itself leads me to believe the sensor is not as capable as some people claim.
Other than that, the JPG’s look nice, but that’s probably more to do with Fuji’s excellent color rendition than the sensor itself. The RAW files can be better but they’re a pain in the ass to work with.
I love Fuji’s lenses and I’d like to see what they can do on a newer conventional sensor. X-Trans is 3 years old.
Nothing wrong with X-Trans.
Just use a better RAW converter. As a matter of fact there is a Sony sensor underneath the x-trans filter.
Sensor is perfectly fine. Just check some Fuji groups on Flickr.
I used x-pro 1 and x-e2, x-100 and x-100 T for the last 2 years. The best among them Is the Original x-100. Flickr (Screen Resolution), all Cameras are good, so Nothing to really see here. Make prints and you see it.
Even my Ricoh GR has more details and better IQ than my x-e2. For me thats a fact. Leica M8 7 year old Kodak Sensor shows more 3D and details than any x-Tran Sensor. This Is true for landscape especially.
But this Is MY Personal preference based on real life experience, so calm down first before you hate me writing this 🙂
Me to. I love Fuji ergonomics and RF styled design but sold X-E2 because od X-Trans sensor. It works especailly bad on mixed and artifical ligthing bringing ugly magneta/pink cast and red clipping, X-trans perform great only if you have good lighting, not to mention foliage, smearing and vaxy high iso, and colour rendering which is not accurate but rather pastel. Watch X-A1 bayer colour, it’s amazing how good it is, one of the best. But Fuji’s body and egonomics are best and shooting is really a joy. Sony’s can’t compare to Fuji’s. I will go back to Fuji only if they drop X-Trans.
So what is good enough for Eric Bouvet, five times World Press Award winner, is not good enough for you… interesting…
1. I read Chinese and the translations are basically all correct. The original post also talked about organic sensor, Panasonic is in charge of production line and fuji provides patents and technologies. It also says the organic sensor is ready for mass production. It will be only the matter of time that we see it on the market.
2. As for dual mount camera, my wild guess is that fuji make a view finder camera and the view finder is interchangeable, and if it is true I think it will be the X-pro2 and this design will make the X-pro2 capable to use optical view finder for wide angle lens and telephoto lens.
higher iso?
I hope these wild rumors are groundless. If it’s true that Fujifilm are about to leave the X-trans APS-C-format for something bigger with unsatisfying hybrid solutions, they are not only failing their present X-users, but even their own concept. Better then to launch a completely separate full frame system, if they feel they have to, even though it may kill a lot of the appeal for what would then be the lower end APS-C line up. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
If true, it probably would imply that Fujifilm are failing in their quest for an innovative sensor technology that would make larger sensors with more pixels even more irrelevant. Lack of innovation is what drives the desperate megapixel-and-FF-race, so in my opinion it’s only sad if they feel they have to join the rat race.
All very entertaining. I’m very happy with my XT for now. I mean I have only had it a year. The camera industry needs to start a lease program like autos for all the tech heads that need the latest features. LOL Then I could get slightly used gear for cheap. (score) Would also be happy to “ADD” an X200 when it comes out as I miss my X100. To me everything else on the above list is fluff.
Alas, a rumor from not too long ago seems to contradict this. Personally, I hope this newer rumor’s right.
Matter of time… and solving the heat / battery life problems. See, no contradiction 🙂
I meant to quote the part about “ready for mass production”, as well. So, yes, it looks like there is a contradiction.
Can’t wait for that beautiful 16mm 1.4 🙂
If the dual mount camera is the successor to the X-Pro 1, that would explain the long wait – perhaps they are developing a set of full frame lenses for it. That would be well worth the wait.
We’re living in a crazy economy. My father bought 3 cameras in his whole life. He used the last one for about 25 years. I myself used several cameras for decades, still own two Nikon F2A’s, a Minolta SRT-100X and one Canon AE, all in a perfect shape. Now everything seems to be ‘outdated’ after one or two years. 16MP was a wonderful resolution only 3 or 4 years ago, now it appears to be too basic for many. Photography has not only become a commodity, the camera itself is a plain consumable now. There’s no believe and proudness in owning a brand, people zap from system to system to system, addicted to buy better and new. The last faithful fan crowd – both to the brand itself and using a camera for a longterm assignment – must be the Leica M owners. While photography itself, doesn’t need all these hypes, pixel races, and… video features. To my feeling, a complete outbound story. I hope really, that Fuji is on the right track.
Yup, that is why I keep saying…. “It’s not the camera, it’s you” Learn the craft and forget about the tech. I really think I want to go back to film but don’t want the stigma of a hipster, not that anyone would every mistake me for one if they met me
that’s the biggest selling point of the Fuji X series (IMHO) : a camera that does not get in the way and does not require you to be a certified flight engineer to use.
Wait, but even from film days you still have four cameras, three systems simultaneously in working condition and two of them are exact same Nikons. So over those decades you have been owning even more?
True, but in analoge photography, film is the sensor and you can switch to whatever film you like without changing the body.
Hey man, you can do that on Fuji cameras. I’ve been living in Classic Chrome world since I got my x100t. The colour palette does remind me of Kodak Chrome (in some old PJ work I like, never used film myself).
Fuji’s film simulation modes were not the biggest selling point for me. Size, style, ergonomics and 35mm challenge for someone who never shot that focal range were more important. Since shooting CC I gained a new appreciation for this unique Fuji feature. I still tweak it to suit different subjects (or my own taste) but I’m love with the colour palette.
I really like Fuji colors too. Used XPRO1 for about 2 years but switched last week to a Sony A7 with 35mm Zeiss because i really need more resolution for large format prints. I believe only Adobe supports the fuji film color profiles? If you use Adobe, you should really try Capture One 8, colors & details are so much better for Fuji RAW. Adobe ACR doesn’t do well for X-trans, i can’t believe why everybody is using it, or they don’t know there is a lot better alternative. You can download a 60 days trial on the capture one site.
PS: are you on thumblr? (my thumblr: http://www.deschampheleer.be)
That’s progress for you… A Hasselblad 500 series was always expensive and it probably costed in the $5-10K range but it lasted a lifetime if you wanted. A digital Hasselblad costs almost $30K, more than half of its resell value is gone after a few years and if you need to have it repaired it needs to go to Sweden… if they even still have the components… The strange thing is that most people seem to be OK with the fact that camera bodies have become a throwaway product that you replace every 1-3 years…
The hybrid mount sounds kind of like you will need it as there will also be full frame lenses 🙂
I can’t see Fuji moving away from its APS-C sensor in the interchangeable lens market after it has proven so successful, and invested all that time and money in development. I believe that any full frame camera will be a fixed lens camera, like the X100 series. Their next steps will be improved pixel count, faster more reliable AF tracking and high speed sync with their flash units, all features that pros have been clamouring for.
As a professional photographer who switched from using the Canon 1DX and 5D3 to the XT-1 I find the focus on full frame by amateurs to be a bit ridiculous. I get better results using my XT1 than I did using Canon, and at a fraction of the investment. The exact focus achieved by the XT1 means I can shoot wide open, something I couldn’t do with the Canon 85mmf/1.2. The smaller sensor means I can use old Nikon lenses on a tilt adapter, something I couldn’t do if it was full frame.
The demand for full frame is driven primarily by folks who are more concerned with specs than photography.
Wow, people are taking these statements as fact. Low likelihood for nearly all of them. Maybe I should write up my speculations, have google translate it and add it to that site? 🙂
I think people are just discussing the rumors, nothing wrong with that… I mean, discussing rumors on a rumors site
I remember how back in 2012 a misterious “Fan Fuji” dropped a series of rumors in the commments to a Japanese blog. I reported about it, got many critics, but at the end his list turned out to be correct.
Also here on FR it happened 2 or 3 times that someone shared rumors out of nothing in the comments… correct rumors.
joofie could have invented everything. Or maybe he really has some insight. For sure some of his rumors sound weird. But also the 56APD sound weird for all out there (I got heavy attacks when I shared that rumors… just check back the comments), or the firmware with electronic shutter (many said it’s impossible to do it via firmware) … but at the end it was true 😉 .
Time will tell if also this time the weird rumors have some truth in it… or not
True and I should be clear. I wasn’t referring to your comments but people seem to be taking the forum post you’re referring to as fact. A lot of it looks like general speculation, maybe informed speculation. It would be interesting, although time consuming, to measure the success rate of forum speculation vs rumors vs reality.
Any chance for a smaller x-pro2? More in a x100s size?
Zero chance. I’d say look at the X-E2 for that. No optical, though.
So if the hybrid mount rumour is true I think we should see the 90mm & 140-400 with a Full frame mount and adaptor for use on current X-mount cameras.
you will have to use a larger mount to fit FF sensor. It’s hard to use adapters since current lens’ flange focal distance is limited. Plus, current lens might only work in corp mode. Yes, some new lens are huge, the lens size does not necessarily affect format factor.
I do hope to see a FF lens. Concerned about the price though.
I really love my xe2!!! But i wouldnt mind if rumor no 11 ist true!! So for some extra money i can put in a cool new auto phase system and still stick to my xe2! Love the thought but i don’t really believe…
What I am looking for….to fully replace my Canon system
1. new sensor with 20-24 MP, matched with item #2
2. new AF system, this is 2015, I should be able to shoot with Fuji, sports at 10 FPS and beat the 7D2 with photos in focus, I am looking forward to the 140-400 lens.
3. Higher flash sync speed. 1/180 does not cut it. My brothers 8 year old Nikon D70 has 1/500 sync speed….hey Fuji, you need to do better than that…if you do 1/200 or 1/250 then your just getting to equal, then I just keep my Canon as that is what it can do…you have to give photographers a real reason to go with Fuji. 1/500 would be a very low minimum, 1/1000 should be at least what you aim for.
4. a pro level flash system using RF.
5. I do not believe Fuji and Adobe have gotten their act together. Please get this done, finally.
6. add the Canon Multi-controller for AF point selection, I need to be able to move on a diagonal, especially to manage all the additional AF points you will be adding.
Nice dreams, Dave. But nothing more than that. AF tracking like a state-of-the-art DSLR? Dream on! Sync speed of 1/1000 with focal plane shutter? Dream on! RF flash system? Hopefully, but sync speed will be limited.
Please just stay with Canon and their awesome RF controlled sync speed if you don’t accept that Fuji also has physical limitations to face and can’t just magically produce the perfect camera…
Here is what the Fuji managers had to say…
Q: How can the ILCs evolve further from here?
Mirrorless are getting toward speeds beyond what DSLRs can achieve. With faster sensor reading speeds, we are going to improve operation speed (responsiveness?) too. And together with that, we are willing to improve further the quality of the EVF.
The lens line-up is getting larger. We need to continue improving the photo part, but listening to customers we know that we also need to work on the 4K of 8K video too.
Q: Regarding the sensor, what new features are you considering?
Fast reading speed. The reading speed should be as high as possible. If we can increase that speed, it opens a lot of new possibilities. Then we also tend toward higher sensitivity. It becomes a global electronic shutter without rolling effect.
Especially for mirrorless, the phase detection AF is an important
feature. With contrast detect, whatever happens you need a wobling movement and there are lenses that can’t handle that properly. Phase detect AF is a solution.
Q: You are considering moving to the electronic shutter in the future. What are the advantages over mechanical shutter?
Yes this is a possibility. It depends largely on the evolution of
sensors. When possible, the advantages would be higher speed, higher burst-modes and silence. That’s because the electronic shutter fixes the inconvenient of the mechanical shutter. It would also benefit the camera size.
Q: Do you think it is necessary to have dual slots?
Yes we recognize that. We received this request from customers and we want to implement it as soon as possible.
Dave, it sounds like you do understand the physics behind this stuff. Didn’t sound like it in your first post.
I believe we will achieve great AF in mirrorless cameras some day. Possibly even better than current DSLRs because mirrorless cameras will be able to use CDAF and PDAF together. But I’m very sure this will take a few years. Current PDAF systems in DSLRs can see in the dark, my X100S (not the most current mirrorless though) needs a lot more light for PD to work. We need better algorithms and faster processors to reach DSLR level but that will take time.
Global shutter will be awesome once we get it though its benefits over current electronic shutters are mostly limited to video, fast action and flash photography. From what I see it isn’t right around the corner though. Might be that Fuji pulls this off with the organic sensor which would make them leapfrog the competition big time. Sadly fast sync times are also limited by radio remotes and not just camera sync. Since cables are only practical in studios (where fast sync speed is usually not needed) that limitation will limit the camera’s capabilities even with a really fast global shutter.
It’s always important to remember that companies often need years to develop new technologies. Saying they are working on them does not mean we will see them anytime soon. Sadly.
Go get the nissin i40 flash,turn it to manual, hold test button for three seconds, watch the lamp next to the m for manual go on and off. You just turned on high speed sync. Even though fuji claims to not support hss it works just fine up to 1/4000!!! I tested it!! You just have to find out what shutter speed you need first. Then turn on flash put the right dial on the speed you need, aim and shoot… Done!
With what camera?
xe2
1-2) Agreed, though expecting 7d2 or nikon d7100 performance is unrealistic, at least for the next 2 years. This is not a sports camera system. An improvement similar in scope as the X-E2->X-T1 would make me very happy.
3) 1/500 sync speed in unrealistic. The d70/s was unique in this respect, the best sync speed is 250/320* (though 320 is pushing it on most system, and only works with select flashes/strobes). You’ll find 1/200 in many current, lower-end cameras. So 1/250(320) would make me very happy. In the meantime, try the x100t, there is a reason I chose it as my first Fuji camera 😉
4-5) Completely agree. RF is a must. Film simulation modes in LR are a good start, but it only gets you in the general ballpark. Would be nice to see some improvements here, and in RAW processing (sharpness, details).
6) – don’t know what you mean.
I think your expectations are off, if you’re waiting for Fuji to deliver a high-end DSLR sports camera performance, you’re looking in the wrong place. Mirrorless won’t be there yet for a couple of years.
Completely agree about full frame. It’s just a marketing trick to put a bigger sensor into 500€ cameras and sell them at 1600€. But if you read the comments here, you can see that people are willing to spend a lot of money for that. Of course most camera companies have no interest in educating the market that 12 megapixel APS-C already was more than enough for maybe 85% of all cases.
A lot of these people also don’t realize that you need to stop down more on a full frame camera to get the same depth of field as you rightly point out. In situations where you can shoot wide open on APS-C, that means you have to stop down and use a higher ISO on full frame, so the advantage is nowhere as great as people assume based on these 1:1 online review comparisons. Then again, the majority of buyers are people who still haven’t got past that first excitement of being able to blur their background, which perfectly explains why Nikon gets away with selling something like the D610, which is essentially an entry-level DSLR, for 1600€. That’s quite a bit more than what a pro workhorse camera like the D200 used to cost.
Much more than a full frame camera from Fuji, I’d love to see a camera that actually delivers what people think a full frame camera would deliver. Such as improved dynamic range. These things even make a difference on a low qualiy image on facebook, whereas the difference between 16 and 24 megapixels is absolutely minimal in practice, as it translates to only roughly 20% more resolution. But people would rather buy a 50 megapixel camera (just look at the DSLR rumor sites) and then wonder why their images are not sharp because they don’t realize they need a faster shutter speed to avoid motion blur and camera shake than they do with a 12 megapixel camera.
As a professional, I am sometimes really annoyed that the in the last few years, the amateur market has started to more and more determine where the professional cameras go. For instance, the full frame craze has pushed up the pro cameras in price quite a bit already.
Personally, I wouldn’t mind having a full frame or, even better, a medium format option from Fujifilm, but I’d rather have a camera that allows me to take better pictures by getting out of my way via great ergonomics and being extremely reliable and fast, rather than a camera that makes me take bad pictures and miss frames, but at much higher resolution.
Wow, you’re all over the place with this comment. If you want higher resolution and better dynamic range just buy an A7.
Of course you need a fast shutter speed, people here seem to have no clue how to work their gear. By your own misguided calculations, I guess that 20% faster shutter speed 🙂
Another wanna be. “the full frame craze has pushed up the pro cameras in price quite a bit already” are you serious? Full Frame cameras have never been cheaper, you can get the A7 for $1000 or less, the Canon 6D, the Nikon D750 are all dirt cheap compared to just a few years ago. The “full frame craze” – you mean like every 35mm camera ever? This isn’t something new or a crazy, the 5D came out 10 years ago!
“I’d rather have a camera that allows me to take better pictures by getting out of my way via great ergonomics and being extremely reliable and fast, rather than a camera that makes me take bad pictures and miss frames, but at much higher resolution”
that would be the very reason why you’d buy something like a 5DmkIII, it’s faster, has better ergonomics, infinitely faster and more accurate focus, etc etc. It’s serious professional camera that is extremely reliable. What you’re saying makes absolutely no sense, it’s almost as if you’re trying to be ironic. You can have all those things you want *and* the higher resolution and dozens and dozens of fantastic lenses.
“In situations where you can shoot wide open on APS-C, that means you have to stop down and use a higher ISO on full frame”
bullshit!! you have no idea. shoot the same shot on full frame and keep the middle of the image if you want, it’s what aps-c is after all. And you have your math all backwards!
Next time you might want to educate yourself more about photography before slamming what Peter said. He’s absolutely correct. Your rebuttal, however, is rife with misstatements and erroneous assertions.
To wit, just two examples:
1. Peter is absolutely correct that the price of pro full frame has been pushed up. Note he used the word “pro”. Nikon does not categorize the D750 as a professional model. Canon does not categorize the 6D as a professional model. And the Sonys? Good god, man … the A7 cameras are about as far from professional in capability as you can get in a full frame camera.
2. You clearly did not understand what Peter was talking about re enlarged DOF and thus increased zone of sharpness with APS-C vs. full frame (or for that matter, m4/3 vs larger formats).
Never ceases to amaze me how the folks who know so little post so much … and are so arrogant about it.
Time to go do some more learnin’, son … about photography AND humility.
Yet more drivel. Zzzzzzzz
Man you sound frustrated..
> “If you want higher resolution and better dynamic range just buy an A7.”
First off, I never said I want higher resolution. And second, if improved resolution and dynamic range are not what you are looking for, why exactly would you want a full frame sensor in an X series camera?
> misguided calculations
24 mp /16 mp = 1.5 times more pixels. A sensor has two dimensions, i.e. the resolution increases by roughly sqrt(1.5) = 1.2247…, which is about 22.5%. Maybe I am indeed overlooking something, but calling a number “misguided” without being more specific or providing an alternative is not really constructive.
> full frame craze
Pro camera does not equal full frame camera. It equals fast and accurate AF, speed of operation, excellent ergonomics and no weird compromises in certain technical aspects. A Nikon D300s is a professional camera, a D610 is not. This has little to do with image quality. Image quality has been more than sufficient for the majority of applications for years, no matter if you are looking at pro or amateur models, APS-C or full frame. If you want a current model with Nikon’s pro button layout (i.e. one where you don’t have a 30% chance of pressing QUAL when you mean to change ISO in the dark) and a decent silent shutter mode, you need to buy a D810. You used to be able to get a D300s for a third of that price. If I want a workhorse camera that is extremely reliable, has good image quality and simply gets out of my way, I need to spend much more than I used to.
Again, photography is about creating great images, not about having a full frame camera. A great image is a great image, no matter the resolution, but if I can’t take it because the camera, all the sensor size in the world is no good.
Film 35 has nothing to do with any of this. In terms of resolution, any APS-C camera these days outperforms 35mm film. And most people shooting digital these days would have shot medium or even large format in film days. Besides, movies have always been shot mostly on Super35 (roughly equivalent to APS-C, the film was loaded vertically). So I really don’t see how this relates to the discussion.
Just to clarify, I don’t have an issue with full frame cameras per se, I have an issue with everybody now thinking they need a full frame digital camera and everything else is inferior, focussing just on the size of the sensor and overlooking the rest of the specifications and practical considerations. This leads to bad and crippled cameras with a high price tag and good image quality taking over the market space of former professional models, consequently pushing those cameras into higher price ranges.
> “that would be the very reason why you’d buy something like a 5DmkIII, it’s faster, has better ergonomics, infinitely faster and more accurate focus”
Have you ever used a 5D Mk III? This is to a large degree subjective, but the ergonomics are not exactly that great. Personally, I’m much faster operating a D300/D700/D800. Besides, that 5D III has a bloody retouch button. I think it goes to prove my point: These days so many people who would be better served with an entry-level APS-C DSLR with entry-level buttons and features now buy a 5D, that Canon even caters to their needs in a professional camera model.
And the dynamic range of the 5D III is not exactly stellar, frankly. That’s one of Canon’s weakest points. I do occasionally shoot with a Mk III when it is the right tool for the job, and I can get fantastic images out of it if I need to, but if I was looking for the best image quality and dynamic range I’d probably be looking elsewhere. And AF has only caught up with the MK III, it’s nothing that amazing. While the Mk II was horrible in low light, the MK III is fairly decent, but it’s nothing that other cameras, at lower price points, have not had for years.
> “shoot the same shot on full frame and keep the middle of the image”
That would pretty much defeat the purpose of having a full frame camera in the first place, wouldn’t it.
Let me clarify: If you use a full frame camera and dedicated lenses, you need to use a longer focal length than on APS-C to get the identical angle of view (eg. use a 85mm lens instead of a 50mm one), which leads to shallower depth of field than in your APS-C shot, meaning you have to stop down to compensate, meaning you need to bring up your ISO or lower your shutter speed to achieve the same exposure. In low light, your shutter is usually at the limit anyway, so you end up needing to go for the higher ISO than on the APS-C camera. This in turn means that the advantage in terms of low light sensitivity is not as great as one would assume since you have to use higher ISOs to get the identical photo.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not against full frame, and I use full frame cameras whenever it makes sense, but I am against full frame for full frame’s sake since it leads to cameras models that just don’t make sense and distort the market because they cater to high-budget gadget buyers more than to professional photographers or enthusiasts. That’s all. These days most amateurs unfortunately don’t have photography as a hobby, they have cameras as a hobby. I am glad Fujifilm currently doesn’t just listen to the internet (they could make a lot of money that way), but also considers the opinions of professional photographers before making a decision. I think it shows in their products and helps them establish themselves and gain trust among professionals and enthusiasts.
“the amateur market has started to more and more determine where the professional cameras go” : Same with computers mate, as a software developer the high end and reliable bodies are now made for gamers with specs we don’t use (ultra high end video card (very very fast and with 4 to 8GB or dedicated RAM), Intel I7, neon lights inside the box, overclocking … all of which we hardly benefit at all we not only ) whilst us pro need reasonably fast and above all reliable, multi tasking hardware with proven hardware and reliable drivers …..)
Seems to be a “natural” tendency in many markets
Bayer also has its issues (rendering of fine hair detail for example). Personally, I think a system like Foveon has the most potential to deliver amazing image quality, but they would have to find a way to solve the ISO issue, plus the technology is now in the hands of Sigma, who unfortunately make cameras with the ergonomics of a Russian submarine.
Foveon – as far as my (admittedly) limited testing coul tell resolve amazing details at base ISO, not much more than that.
Love to fill out that flash system and also work on autofocus. In low light, it leaves something to be desired. Also, somehow squeak some more photos out of those batteries?
Some more info that seems missing from admin’s translation
1. Organic cmos is ready for mass production. Panasonic will provide the production line and Fujifilm the patent and technique. The release time for Pana is 2015 Dec and for Fuji 2016 Jan.
2. The original XM2 design is cancelled. A new line is on the way and it probably won’t be called M2.
Some more info that seems missing from admin’s translation
1. Organic cmos is ready for mass production. Panasonic will provide the production line and Fujifilm the patent and technique. The release time for Pana is 2015 Dec and for Fuji 2016 Jan.
2. The original XM2 design is cancelled. A new line is on the way and it probably won’t be called M2.
Fuji, an IBIS body needed with Bayer and without, already!!!
The X-Pro1 already has this functionality.
You’re funny! No professional would ditch a 5DmkIII for an XT-1! You gave away that you’re obviously not a professional (unless you mean wedding professional) when you talked about not being able to shoot an 85mm f/1.2 wide open. Oh, and by the way, the nikon tilt/shift adapter was *designed* to be used on full frame 35mm cameras.
The demand for full frame is driven by people that care about low light, about depth of field, about tonality and about not having exaggerated distance perspective, and of course people that care about “specs” – you know how the camera actually performs! Surprisingly not many pro’s used half frame 35mm cameras either 🙂 Of course people are concerned with specs – why else would you have bought the 85mm f/1.2 instead of the f/1.8, or why would you but the X-T1 when you could have picked up a nice little Canon 20D used for $100 and been just fine. It’s ignorant and naive to say people aren’t concerned with specs. I get the impression you have never tried a 5DmkIII.
Can we see your professional work? Or even amateur work? Anything you shoot?
Based on the comments I’ve seen from you hnriot, I would be surprised if you had anything to show, you came off as a hardcore gearhead.
Usual drivel from you.
Show us your fine art. I’m getting curious.
That usually shuts him up.
“The demand for full frame is driven primarily by folks who are more concerned with specs than photography”
Bingo. I’ve been an FF shooter for over 2 years now, and now I’m back to APS-C for most of my shots, even low light events shooting. Anything that works with 35mm I do with the fuji.
With Fuji’s fast primes you don’t lose a lot of DoF, but DoF is just one tool, and there isn’t a hell of a difference between shooting APS-C at F/1.4 vs FF at F/1.8.
What you gain with FF is 1 stop better low-light performance. Compared to my d7000, I can get about 10-15% more shots in a concert, but that’s a quantitative difference. Does it matter if I ship 400 or 440 photos? 80-90% percent of my photography I could easily do with my d7000.
All these turn FUJI into SONY drivels on FR are from people who think a better, larger sensor is all they need to improve their photography. Gearheads.
Spoken like someone trying to rationalize their choice.
“there isn’t a hell of a difference between shooting APS-C at F/1.4 vs FF at F/1.8”
True, but that’s flawed math – go look it up. If you believe there’s little difference between ff and aps-c then you made the right choice.
Given that skills are going to be the same, if I pick up an APS-c camera vs a full frame camera I will not shoot any differently, but the photos from a full frame camera will be better, just the same as a comparison between a 5DmkIII and a PhaseOne will be better with the larger sensor.
For events and wedding it doesn’t make much difference, I am not referring to 400 snaps at a party.
define ‘Better’ – Different – Yes; Better – Not sure.
Just like you don’t use your Jag to drive in the desert, you probably don’t want to drive Glasgow – Marseille in your 4×4 : each tool has it’s use – apply the best tool for the job approach and don’t try to coerce your tools into doing what you need to do, at best you’ll have a “good enough” solution.
One of the reasons APS-C is seen as “non pro” is that the likes on Nikon never produced high-quality lenses for APSC (with the APSC costs) forcing us to buy expensive FF lenses
My photos speak for themselves, no need to rationalize anything. I shoot people (mostly artists), not pixel peepers, and they’re as happy as ever – in fact, thanks to the small size and always-with-me nature of the x100t, I’ve shot more, made more connections, etc.
IQ only matters in the context of output, and like 99% of all photos, mine usually end up on the web. But apart from music, I also did more commercial jobs dual wielding with my Nikon. I did interious/design work with those cameras, and the art director chose one of the Fuji shots for their cover. I shot lifestyle/portraiture exclusively with this tiny cam – these are print jobs, and nobody complained about IQ.
If you worry about IQ and sensors and 1/2 stop DoF difference in 2015, then you’re mostly likely a gearhead in my opinion, that’s all.
+1
Csaba, you are a good portrait photographer. IQ for web & magazines is fine, but if they ask you for a job for promotional photos (big), 16MP APS-C is not enough. Also large format prints is very limited, i am not speeking of canvas but for artist expositions (museum quality prints). If you don’t need IQ for promotional photos & large format prints, 16MP APS-C is just fine.
That’s a very small niche Franky, and part of those people would likely be MF shooters. I would like to have 24mpx sure, and I do love those 36mpx on my Nikon, but for the vast majority of users we have reached the good enough stage years ago in terms of IQ.
Also people tend to forget that half a year to a year later, there usually is a new APS-C model that has the same image quality as the full frame camera, but at almost half the price. I don’t know about others, but I don’t buy cameras right when they come out (price is too high in relation, and initial batches are likely affected by quality control issues until the production process is tweaked a bit, see the D750 recalls for example).
the only rumor I wish was true: the ability to get hardware upgrades of the body parts whist keeping the rest; That would be excellent.
Just a software issue: plenty of raw processors available do NOW know how to properly deal with Xtrans. I could get very usable 1600 iso from an X30 raw whilst the Sooc JPEG were smeared. (foliage)
Xtrans produces a much more pleasing noise at high isos than Bayer – note this is IMHO
Comments from visitors without verified emails require my approval. You can verify your email, and no more approval is needed
Same here. Switched back from FF to APS-C few months ago. Been using FF since the 5D was launched. Sold my 5D MKII and got into the X-T1. I see no problems with DoF. The 23mm 1.4 gives me plenty of that. Even too much most of the times. Most importantly, I have fun again in taking my cam out on hikes.. I lost that fun with the bigger cams some time ago.
lacks 90 f/2.0
I do make prints more than often. I really think the problem is in the different workflow. When I came from Canon I had to adjust immensely to the Fuji RAW files. It was terrible 🙂 However after reading a lot and using Lightroom profiles I ended up with good prints. Check for example http://petebridgwood.com/wp/2014/10/x-trans-sharpening/ or http://blog.thomasfitzgeraldphotography.com/blog/2014/02/updated-x-trans-sharpening-presets-lightroom
And there are many more people to be found on dpreview who managed to adjust their workflow in order to get good results.
They really got their workflow tuned with x-trans files. So I don’t ignore people complaining. But I’m quite confident it is a workflow issue. Oh and I’m not angry at you 😉