Diglloyd launched a new call for action for Sony to acknowledge and eventually solve or mitigate (if possible) the A7r Shutter Vibration Issue. This is the original text written by Lloyd Chambers:
Prelude: The following is expressed with a constructive intent: for Sony to take the issue seriously. The “public” request is merely that: acknowledging the issue is necessarily the first step to addressing it. In no way are the signatories implying any legal implications, rather, we simply all hope to see the issue addressed in a satisfactory manner, a sentiment that the first paragraph captures. There is a big win/win possible here; that’s up to Sony to make it happen.
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The Sony A7R represents a seminal technical achievement in image quality in a compact and portable package, a development which we applaud. And yet, we are also frustrated by the shutter vibration issue:
1. The Sony A7R shutter vibration issue causes loss of image quality (blur) in shooting. This loss varies, but can be quantified as reducing image resolution to as low as the 12-18-24 megapixel range (or even lower), varying depending on the lens, lens focal length, lens support, tripod stability under varying field conditions, and the shutter speeds involved. Most affected are telephoto lenses and close range (macro) shooting, but the issue is not confined to those areas.
2. We ask that Sony publicly acknowledge the issue as real, and to publicly acknowledge the issue as a current limitation of the camera.
3. We ask Sony to issue a public statement on what *if any* action Sony intends to take to mitigate or eliminate the issue, and on what timeline.
4. We ask Sony to investigate ways to mitigate or eliminate the vibration, including firmware updates implementing a “shutter delay mode”, or ideally, solutions such as an electronic first curtain shutter (EFC) which would eliminate the issue entirely.
5. As professional or serious amateur photographers, we expect a major vendor to stand behind the products it sells, and to detail and to respond to the issues in a forthright and honest manner.
In support and agreement:
see signature list at diglloyd.com
Obviously SonyAlphaRumors editor Andrea fully supports this request. Thanks Lloyd and all Photographers for launching that call for action!
0 Responses
Such a shame. Why would you skip the .05 cents to put a mechanical shutter in the A7R? Why? It’s not a big deal. That camera will be yesterdays news and Sony will have moved on before the year is even up. a “new and improved” one will be on the horizon before you know it. I’ll stick in the a-mount camp for now and watch to see how Sony handles this.
A new and improved one was already in the works before these saw the light of day. Sony are masters of SKU marketing. They will always hold back some basic, common sense feature for the next version and they rarely support things to any meaningful degree post-release.
A7 and A7r were clearly rushed to market – that is obvious from a number of other things:
– OSS not supported on most E-mount APS-C lenses (ie. no time to implement)
– hardly any lenses avaliable at time of launch (ie. no time to build lens range prior to launch)
– LA-EA4 adaptor being almost identical to LA-EA2 except for bigger mirror instead of adopting the newer AF system from A77 & A99 and making improvements in other areas (ie. no time for a new design, just a modification to the existing one)
– ‘sudden death’ power failures appearing on the A7 which should have been caught in product testing
– ergonomic ‘quirks’ such as displayed image magnification etc (no time to iron-out issues)
– design based too-heavily on RX1 causing both ergonomic and aesthetic issues
The priority was obviously to get the product to market before the holiday season and to steal a march on competitors
There was a 24MP sensor available at time which had OSPDAF and supported electronic first curtain shutter (from A99) – that went in the A7
The only 36MP sensor available was basically the one in the D800, so that was used even though it didn’t have the OSPDAF and electronic first curtain shutter support as there was no time to wait for another sensor. Therefore the need for a heavier shutter…
according to Sony they left the osdpaf out of the 7r because it can’t be used without the aa filter. I guess the dead pdaf pixels would be too obvious if you combined ospdaf and lack of aa filter.
Good explanation.
I think your post was rushed to market….
OSS not supported on most E-mount APS-C lenses (ie. no time to implement)
OSS works on all of the good E mount lenses… the only lenses not supported are the 18-55 kit, 16-50 PZ, 18-200 and 55-210… seriously, you consider this an issue?
– hardly any lenses avaliable at time of launch (ie. no time to build lens range prior to launch)
Name a camera with a new mount that was released with more native lenses and more total lens selection than the A7.
– LA-EA4 adaptor being almost identical to LA-EA2 except for bigger mirror instead of adopting the newer AF system from A77 & A99 and making improvements in other areas (ie. no time for a new design, just a modification to the existing one)
Are you kidding? You think Sony should offer the A99 AF system because of all of the other competitive solutions that offer their high end AF system in an adapter?… wait, there aren’t any other adapters that add any level of PDAF to a CDAF camera? oops..
– ‘sudden death’ power failures appearing on the A7 which should have been caught in product testing
You read Jim Bobs post about a faulty A7 and determined that it was rushed to market….
– ergonomic ‘quirks’ such as displayed image magnification etc (no time to iron-out issues)
You found one little issue that can be fixed via firmware!! Congrats!!
– design based too-heavily on RX1 causing both ergonomic and aesthetic issues
A good final example of you really stretching to make a point — bordering on abuse of common sense.
The LAEA2 & LAEA4 use the exact same focus system as the A77, the A99 is different making use of on-sensor PDAF points.
What is this dead A7 issue you need? I haven’t heard anything about this issue…
I think he’s enjoying the attention.
“the shutter blur is a fractional pixel” – and so he’s raising a petition. C’mon…
+1, lol, the good samaritan. Where’s his petition to Leica, btw?
+1 You nailed it!
And it will be solved “a la japanese”: absolute silence and A7R mkII in one year.
I agree. Go make some nice photographs instead.
+1
Lloyd Chambers or “digilloyd” is a caught out shill for ………
He’s trying to make Sony’s name bad to support his bosses and also generate traffic to his paid site.
Wasn’t this the guy that Sony called out as “making stuff up”?
He is on a personal vengeance against Sony so he can promote himself.
Either way this jackass goes out winning:
-If Sony recognizes the non-existent problem he can claim “I DID IT”
-If Sony doesn’t recognize the voices in his head then he will go on and on on his tirade
Time to send him an offer he can’t refuse Sony.
I am in complete agreement with Diglloyd, i returned the A7r a month ( sadly ! I had high expectations) wrote to Sony and as of yet no answers
Frick – you returned yours after a month? Is that common for a store to let you return the camera even after a month? Like a “30-day money-back guarantee”? Do you have to prove the camera was faulty or defective in some way to return it? Or is it “No questions asked”.
As an example, In USA, some stores have 30-day Return/Exchange policy. You can come in and just say “I didn’t like it”. Of course it has to be in “Like New” condition.
Stan – thanks. I bought the A7r and A7 kit lens (separately) from a US store in New York. My problem is that unless I return it as soon as it arrives, I won’t really have the chance to as I’ll be out of the country for almost a month right after that. It’s scheduled to arrive in a few days so this post made me panic a bit.
If you feel uncomfortable and regret your purchase then I’d suggest to send an e-mail to the stores advising them of your intention to return the camera and lens without even opening the parcel. You can explain that the reason is the shutter vibration issue you have red over the internet. They will understand, you’ll get your refund to wait for the next round.
PJP – good point (i.e. returning and mentioning the shutter vibration issue).
I’m an IT guy by trade, not a photographer. I’ve often read about peoples’ issues with Macs that I have never experienced myself. My main concern here is whether this is an endemic issue to the camera itself or something that only manifests itself in certain circumstances (use of long/heavy lenses via adapters; shooting/shutter trigger method issues).
If the answer is “Using only short/light FE lenses and a steady shutter trigger technique [e.g. like what John mentioned] will probably avoid the problem”, then I can probably just keep it. It’s unfortunate that I’ll only have the camera for a couple of days before I have to leave and make that keep-or-not-keep decision. That’s why I’m here trying to discern whether I’ll be affected.
Is this issue only with the A7r or does the A7 experience it as well?
I’m also curious to know
The A7 can use an electronic shutter, so there’s a workaround. The A7R lacks this.
Only the A7r as it doesn’t have EFCS, though I don’t have problem with this “shutter vibration” he’s speaking about, or it could be that my photography needs doesn’t fall into the “shutter vibration” criteria.
“here’s a noose – please stick your head in it”
That’s asking more than is realistic in my opinion, getting Sony to declare that.
Maybe it can be ‘damped’ in some way, but at a basic level, surely the issue is the ration of speed/weight of the shutter in relation to the weight of the camera body.
All cameras with a physical shutter will show the problem, but that equation makes the issue worse for the a7R.
We already had articles proving that adding weight to the a7R solves it, and surely a solid connection to a solid tripod would have a similar affect, instead of connecting to a lens collar that can wobble.
Electronic first curtain shutter would have solved the issue from the start. Problem is that it looks like Sony wanted to focus on a new offset microlens design, to be compatible to wide angle rangefinder lenses, rather than focus on making its own A-Mount lens line work without any issues. As a Software QA, i’m surprised such a thing was even missed. It doesn’t take long to take 3 lenses, mount a prototype on a tripod and take a set of pictures through the entire shutter range. Then, pixel-peep the image to ensure that shutter vibration, an issue that quite a few high end cameras have, is a non-issue.
To tell the truth, what I think actually happened, same way as it happens in a Software world – the issue was found, reported and was well documented, but then business decision was made that it is a low severity/priority issue. And now its biting them.
EFCS is not there for a reason, I do not know what that reason is but I am certain that if the EFCS would have worked with the 36 MP sensor they would have used it. It is possible it was left off in a trade for another feature, like they could not use it at 1/8000 second but could have at 1/4000 so picked a high shutter speed over EFCS (note: speculation only). It is a light camera with a high shutter speed and FF, it will have vibration problems at certain shutter speeds. Hopefully this is something Sony can fix in future models, I doubt firmware alone will be able to. Lack of EFCS certainly hurts it as a macro lens.
Should be “as a macro camera” not lens
Glass half-empty. Glass half-full:
> “i’m surprised such a thing was even missed”
Maybe it wasn’t and there’s a good reason for not including it. As to offset lenses, they weren’t put there to be compatible with rangefinder lenses, this simply isn’t true.
Then what was it for? All i’ve read is that due to a better compatibility with wide angle lenses, that have short register distance.
As far as reason to not include it – True, there could have been a good reason. Development time was one of them for sure. Don’t know about others.
Well, e-mount does have a short register distance.
Is it genuinely biting Sony ?
No clue, but this isn’t the first time we hear about shutter vibration issue. It might not be biting Sony as a whole, or even their Imaging department, but the team that worked on A7r has heard about it for sure and usually the whole team starts scrambling when an issue of this scope is reported, otherwise there wouldn’t have been an engineer’s reply a few days ago (don’t remember if it was on SAR or not), that there is no issue with shutter. There could truly be no issue, and that all those people are using flimsy tripod setups. Thats possible too, but nevertheless, the dev team was pushed to investigate this.
It has been tested out on heavy weight tripods as well and it makes no difference.
Hahaha. Not bloody likely.
Oh please. I’ve tested this out with a 200mm Minolta macro lens with the LAEA3 (on a tripod attached to the lens foot)shooting macros of tiny details on a plant. No shutter shake, no problem. Can you get vibration with long lenses? Sure you can. And the same thing can happen with any camera with a telephoto setup. Technique is extremely important. But what do you expect with a 36 mpix sensor. This guy just needs the web hits and publicity for his site.
Agree. It’s a “non-issue”. All the cameras have some shake more or less and this looks like a “let’s create some fuzz in order to get attention”.
I really don’t understand this.
I don’t have A7r, but from what i’ve read, the issue is most apparent at 1/125 shutter speed. Have you tried that? Just wondering.
Don’t use 1/125 then 🙂
Haha, funny 🙂
I could care less, as I said – I don’t own one. I’m just wondering for the sake of discussion. A7/A7r are the first mirrorless cameras that got me thinking about FF sensors, due to smaller camera size. So far i’ve been more than happy with my A65.
Stan:
I used several exposure ranges. I think the biggest factor is the length of the lens (400mm and up are much more finicky than 100 to 200mm) and the amount of play in the connectors. The LAEA3 is pretty tight and the macro lens I’m talking about is built like a tank. I have no doubt that with a long lens with the A7R hanging off the end of an adapter that you could see vibration. Probably the easiest thing to do is stick a bean bag on the connector to absorb vibration. Some folks have been attaching the camera mount to a rail that separately attaches to the lens foot others are attaching weights to the A7R. There are several strategies to pursue but the point is this is a very light camera with a heavy shutter being attached to very long lenses using various 3rd party adapters. Why should we think it would be completely vibration free? According to the same tester the Leica M240 ( a $7,000 camera) also has a vibration problem.
Regards,
John
John – are you implying that the issue would be lessened/mitigated if no lens adapters are involved? I’m only using FE lenses so I’m curious.
RN:
So far the existing FE lenses that I own (55 and 35mm) are too short to provide a good test but from others who have tested longer lenses I believe that every extra joint provides an opportunity for possible vibration. I think talking to folks who use very long lenses would be the best source for tips on minimizing vibration. I don’t go much beyond 200mm myself. But macro is one thing I like to do so I tested to make sure I was happy with the A7R.
Regards,
John
John – thanks. I agree with your “I believe that every extra joint provides an opportunity for possible vibration” assessment.
So if I’m only likely to be using the A7 kit lens and then the Zeiss zoom after that for the foreseeable future, it sounds like I would be less likely to be affected than others using long lenses via adapters.
It is only with long lenses, with a certain collar/tripod setup, at specific speeds. Use another setup, use a faster or slower speed, and the problem is not a problem anymore. As if every photo ever done with a “professional” camera is by definition always pixel peep protected… Gosh. If it is not sharp, try again. Or buy another camera. Not sure the A7 has actually the same “issue”.
John you need to read all the test by all the photographers that have been done. It is not just one report of this it is multiple. Just because you have tested it with one model of 200mm does not mean the issue does not exist. From all the sample photos of these tests I have seen it is very clear there is a problem.
This “”issue” seems common to several mirrorless bodies there has been a lot of complaints about it in the mFT forums regarding a couple of Olympus bodies.I think it is could be down to the low mass of the cameras not being able to deal with vibrations at certain resonances. No camera is perfect all have their gotchas
They need to do this for Sony’s flash overheating problem that has only gotten worse instead of better.
Wayne, I started a thread on sony’s community board on their support web site . It is about 10 pages long now. Add your voice if you too have problems with the defective flash:
http://community.sony.com/t5/Alpha-SLT-DSLR-Cameras/HVL-F60M-Flash-Overheating-Unusable/td-p/139177
I will thanks
I had to sign up with a different name because it would not allow me to use ” wayne summers” for some odd reason.
Just a word of advice regarding your push for acknowledgement of any problems with the F60 flash… To anyone reading this…
I have read the thread on the sony forums, problem is the responders are not techs. They re often call centre drones reading from a flip book script and referencing the Ormandy websites for info. Not ideal, but many people expect the camera designers and engineers to be on the other end. Reality check.
Talk is cheap, worthless in most cases. This includes posting and ranting on forums ( not saying you are, but a great many people are choosing that avenue to try to be heard…). Asking the question is all fine and good, but companies like Sony only observe what they can confirm and document. Sending a flash in for service, generating a ticket and workorder logs the issue…
Complaining on a forum does not.
The numbers need to show a problem, real numbers of real units exhibiting real problems. This means serial numbers, purchase dates, customer real names… This s the ONLY way to realistically expect any response.
Bottom line is if anyone expects any action go direct to Sony, if you fail to make your specific problem known to Sony and instead choose to lash out on forums then I wouldn’t expect much. You can argue bad PR will force their hand, but for this issue that is a bit delusional.
It would be a refreshing change if a camera company acknowledged a serious camera issue, instead of ignoring their user base (do I need to mention the issues with the D600 and D800?)
However by the sounds of it – this issue isn’t serious. Some people have the problem, some don’t. Sony might at some point release an update to the firmware but I believe more fixes (if needed) will go into the next version of the camera.
It is an issue. Tested it out myself. Even on sturdy tripod with 10sec shutter delay. Visible even on the native 35 mm lens if your setup is not rock solid. I realize that I’m a pixel peaker and some people may not notice any issue because on the 35mm and 55mm native lenses I tested it was very subtle but you would notice on 24×36 in print. I was hoping this camera could replace a big medium format setup, and indeed it does come close, but I spend a lot of time shooting in the danger zone(1/25th 1/125th)for the camera.
I’m curious, so you magnify your image 500%?
It is visible at less than 100% magnification.
It is visible at 100% with my eyes. I showed it to a 65 year photo friend and he said he could not see the difference. I could easily see it in a side by side comparison. It was a non issue most of the time with the 35mm 2.8, unless I was a little sloppy in securing my tripod. But it was always an issue on the 55 1.8. I don’t have the mental energy to wonder if a soft image was my fault or the cameras fault!!!
So the shutter speed that both of you were using at that time is 1/125? Handhold? Tripod mounted to camera? Tripod mounted to lens adapter?
I noticed funny things happening between 1/25th and 1/125 or so. It’s been about a month since I sent the camera back so I don’t remember exactly and I’m not in front of my computer to reference the old files if I haven’t deleted them already. Anyways, the camera was always used on a Manfrotto CX Pro3 carbon tripod with a Manfrotto 468MGRC2 ball head rated for 20 lbs. I don’t shoot handheld very often so I can’t comment on that. I did not try hanging weights from my tripod or any other measures to reduce the issue. Could those extra measures have eliminated the problem?? Maybe, but it irritated me that all Sony had to do was include EFCS and we wouldn’t be jumping through hoops trying to calm the shutter down!
I believe I’ll wait for the DSLR version of this sensor. Until then I’m in love with my RX1R, it’s silent, and gets out of the way so I can concentrate on taking images. Prints wonderfully up to 24x36in!
Oh, I should also add, what’s the lens that you used?
Jay > It’s possible that Sony didn’t include EFCS for some technical reason, there’s no way a company will put its brand reputation at stake just to “save cost, and or for v2 of the product”, especially on things that can ruin the product they spend time and money into making. As doing so will cost them MORE in the end, not to mention that Sony isn’t a new player in the field either.
I was using the Sony Zeiss 35mm 2.8 and the Sony Zeiss 55mm 1.8. I also used the adapter on several of my FF Sony/Zeiss glass. I tried my Zeiss 16-35, 24-70,24,50,85 and 135. I did not do a thorough examination on any of these FF A-mount lenses. They all looked really big and weird on the tiny A7R body, not that that matters. I will say that the sensor on this camera pushed out some AWESOME images and I’m very excited to replace my a99 when Sony comes out with the DSLR version. I’m 100% behind Sony as you can tell I’ve invested heavily in their product. I started years ago with the a900 and then the a99 and RX1R and all of these cameras have worked flawlessly for me. Again, I don’t want to spend the mental energy wondering if technically sub optimal images are my fault or the cameras fault, the burden must fall 100% on me.
Jay > any chance you still have those photos? I would like to examine them if possible. You can post it on flickr or dropbox with a password protect and post it here, pretty sure not many people would bother to check except for a few of us.
I’m quite curious to find out as well cause I’ve been using the A7r from 24-135mm focal length and hasn’t encounter this problem or find this problem as serious like how Llyod is making it be. Or it could be that I suck at judging photo blur and my eyes needs calibration (the last I check, I have a 20/20 vision).
Oh and one last thing, have you used or own any 24mp or 16mp APSC camera?
Sorry Adam I did not bother to save my boring test images. I know this will seem ‘convenient’ to some. For some reason I did save an edge performance crop with the Zeiss 35 2.8 vs. the sigma 35 1.4. And the Sigma was better, no doubt about it. I’ll get it to you if you want. I would say the difference you see in the edge performance crop is about the same as what I saw with shutter shake.
Trying 10 sec. shutter delay is pointless ad clueless. So master your technique first, then point to others.
Elaborate to me why a 10 sec shutter delay is idiotic??? If anything 10 sec delay is an example of solid technique. Maybe not necessary most of the time but a solid approach for repeatable results.
I think the problem lies in the amount of time between the shutter opening and recording the exposure. The 10 sec (or whatever) shutter delay affects the amount of time between the press of the shutter button and the opening of the shutter. Thus a 2, 5, 10 or 30 second delay would be pointless for this issue.
True, it would be pointless for this issue. But I had no knowledge of this problem when I got the camera and was playing it safe.
Using a 2 or 10 sec delay is NOT pointless nor idiotic when testing for anything regarding camera movement i
It eliminates or lessens one of the many possible variables from the testing equation … user induced movement. For critical work, I always use 10 seconds to be sure the camera settles down before firing.
I once did an animation type, pin registered series of images on a locked down HD camera stand with a heady Pro digital camera. Just touching the shutter button made the images jump around when layered in PS. Even a short cable release induced slight movement, and I had to get a longer one to eliminate any movement.
– Marc
As we get into higher resolutions…which I encourage…issues that are insignificant at lower res take on greater importance.
It is not unexpected that an issue like this has appeared and it is Sonys responsibility to resolve it…sort of like a recall on a new car.
P.S.
The fact that not every user experiences this in every situation changes nothing.
Not every Ford Pinto gas tank exploded.
Add to that Sony’s RAW compression issue and the lack of support in terms of firmware updates, and you get many people thinking more than twice about investing on this system.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1267511/0
Did you paint / create the butterfly? It’s exceptionally nice.
I would say the Pinto example doesn’t work. The effect really isn’t reproducible, which calls to question how much of it is really user error and technique. Certainly there is a baseline vibration for every camera – including the A7r, and without EFC (which we ALL knew going into this) this will be slightly higher with a low-mass body.
Given that with just a light touch of a finger – this problem essentially disappears for me – the portion of the blame put in Sony’s lap is enormous.
A delay-release function is sensible, as it aids good technique.
Thanx
Yes all my avatars are my paintigs.
The pinto was an example that a defect does not effect everyone but needs to be addressed.
Wind had very little effect on old bridges, but as suspension bridges became lighter Tacoma Narrows bridge colapsed from the wind.
With ligter higher res cameras the previosly acceptable shutter vibration has become a more serious issue.
Not a single A7r did explode, or for that matter, is likely to explode.
There are physical limits to everything. Even a plane passing over a building shakes a camera on a tripod in that building. Any moving part will cause a problem.
The only solution will be electronic shutters. IS systems that work well on a tripod could help, but will come with another set of compromises.
Image equipment today can technically out perform almost anything of just a few years ago (excluding ultra large format 5×7 and larger)
Identifying the issue is asking for more research to build a better camera (which is good). Asking for an apology or recall on this is like saying my new sports car should have 10 more horsepower at any cost to the manufacturer because I want it.
I have had the same issues with my 18 to 24 MP cameras, and have gone back to using heavier tripods to resolve the problem.
If it requires an electronic shutter to make higher rssolution cameras…and i am not saying it does…than that is what Sony must do.
It can probably be resolved with a less drastic fix however.
George, I like how you think. Fair warning, I intend to use your sports car analogy at some point in the future. Well said. I am very much an ‘old school’ kind of shooter. Formerly 4×5 and MF shooter. What we can do with digital now – mind blown. I can’t wait to see a full frame global shutter. I think that will be the greatest breakthrough about to happen. Flash synch at any speed just like a leaf shutter.
+1
Amen.
+1
George, if you buy a car that should have 100bhp and when it rains it drops to 90bhp you don’t say “I learned to travel on sunny days” you say “make a goddamn recall Sony!”
George, if you buy a car that should have 100bhp and when it rains it drops to 90bhp you don’t say “I learned to travel on sunny days” you say “make a goddamn recall Sony!”
You don’t pay top dollars for a faulty product without asking for product support.
If people were really honest with themselves and decided to be objective, I bet 90% of people would figure out that they don’t have anywhere near enough tripod underneath them. Most people don’t ‘know’ how much tripod they need and are so concerned with light weight and portability that they end up very week legged. I’m not going to tell people how much tripod they need but stable is generally heavier and with fewer legs extensions.
So where did Sony claim a vibrationless shutter? If they never claimed a measurable amount of vibration then you can’t quantitatively call it ‘faulty’. Fact… every camera will have shutter vibration. Some more than others. I think the wording George used was very accurate. I want (10 more horse power) less vibration in the shutter, just because I want it (feel it should be there so i am entitled).
Bad analogy. It actually looks much more like people driving a powerful car at 120mph on rainy days and wondering why it becomes less controllable.
Well said! And if you put the right set of tires (sturdy tripod/ballast/long lens stabilizing mount/etc.) on your sportscar (A7R), you might actually be able to drive faster than 120mph on a wet road with no loss of handling!
Exactly. The car recalls are for bad breaks or other life threatening issues, not for my acceleration is worse then my next buddies sports car under this and this condition. Camera vibrations are and have been an issue for a long long time. Still it seems, photographers have coped with it. And yes, there is a reason, why there are bigger heavier tripods around. You can also buy an extra lens collars if you like, e.g. Manfrotto 293.
Bunch of cry babies – should have done your homework before you purchased one!
A7/A7r interested me very much, but as soon as I heard the loud shutter noise (which was widely publicized on YouTube before it went on sale), I said “this could be a problem.” So I did not buy one.
I agree about doing the research – if I’d known how noisy my a580 would be (compared to the a500 and a77) I’d never have bought it…
Seems like a real issue to me. Probably they couldn’t get 1/8000 with electronic shutter. But they could give the option of electronic first curtain OR fast mechanical shutter.
A firmware update is a realistic request.
A public statement acknowledging the issue before it’s fixed is not realistic for a minor issue like this.
I’m confused, can electronic 1st curtain shutter simply be enabled via firmware? I’m skeptical of that. If it wasn’t a hardware issue, why would it be on the a7 and not the more expensive a7r.
I’d pic a M43rd’s over the A7R. So much for OMD being “inferior.” They built a system to maximize the sensors potential- call it the porsche of the mirrorless world if you will. The A7R is a Camaro- great looking, but start pushing it in the corners and it goes all mushy….just like the A7R’s pics.
No IBIS, large lenses despite small camera body size, slow focus and now this. Do it right or don’t do it at all.
I’m not saying I don’t support Sony products. I just bought the 50mm zeiss even though I question their long term commitment to their consumers. I guess you just have to dodge a stray bullet every once in awhile if you plan on hanging around the Sony camp. I’d rather buy into the mirrorless as well but Sony’s blunders keep me at bay. Two systems it is for me.
When m43 first appeared 6 years ago, there weren’t OMDs to be seen. I’d say doing it right takes time. As to the rest, it is all trade-offs, as usual.
lel, whats full frame, 1.5 crop factor, nah i like 2, oh a 50mm portrait lens…you mean 100mm tele….shallow dof…whats that? should i go on?
different cameras altogether buddy. Wasn’t this whole shutter shake thing wasn’t proven a myth a few weeks ago?
Take your 4 thirds, ill sit back and enjoy the show with an a7….as for a7r users, id like to see some tests done with real in-depth tests
Why doesn’t the 7r have an EFC?
I don’t know much about the technical inner workings of EFC, but I would guess it is related to the sensor. The a7 has the same sensor as the a99, which has EFC. The a7r is a new sensor design, perhaps in the optimizing for the small we-mount it had to be left out. It stands to reason that EFC is enabled by a hardware feature that the a7 has and not disabled for no good reason via software on the a7r.
Someone who knows more about the ins-and-outs about this will hopefully give more thorough information.
Most likely because of slower sensor read out.
My first guess would be to agree with you. The combination of read out speed and volume of information being 36mp instead of 24 on the a7
Lloyd Chambers is feeling a little insecure that’s all.
I feel the same. My A7r excite me yet also gives me some fear each time I use it. Spending $2300 then $1000 on 55mmF/1.8 and preordering 24-70Z for another $1200, total of $4500 and feeling that fear shouldn’t make me feel what Lloyd feels. He seems hurt and wants an apology.
The day A7r arrived I did some test shots, I had serious thoughts about returning it all and buying the OMD1 and keep some cash in my bank.
I still have this feeling. Hoping the zeiss zoom lens with IS will lighten the problem a little bit.
I may still return it and use these lenses on my nex 6 then later upgrade to its successor.
This makes me angry. The camera has been out in the wild for what, a month now? 2 days after I commit to spending the most money I’ve ever spent on a tech toy (even my Pioneer plasma was cheaper!) and NOW it comes out that there’s a fatal flaw in the design? Why wasn’t this posted until today?
Maybe because it actually isn’t a “fatal flaw’?
And I might ask “where have you been?” (unless, of course, you said that “tongue in cheek”). This issue has been well publicized since before the cameras were available. I knew about it well before I received my A7R; after 1 month of shooting (~2,000 shots) and using a wide array of lenses from a Nikon 20mmf4 to a CZJ 500f8 (including quite a few macro shots with OM 80Macro and telescoping extension tube), I have yet to experience any issues I would attribute to shutter shock. I don’t doubt that the issue exists (I think any camera with a mechanical shutter will have some form of vibration at some point) – just think you can work around or mitigate the issue so it isn’t a problem. I shoot on a sturdy tripod and use the Manfrotto Telephoto Lens Support for my longer lenses. I actually use 2 tripods when I shoot with my Canon FL 1200mm f11 (it’s a monster – haven’t hooked it up to the A7R yet!), one on the camera and the other tied to the lens tripod collar via the manfrotto tele lens support (3 “connect” points on the setup.
djp58 – not tongue in cheek. I haven’t had time to read everything on the ‘Net about the camera; I’m heading to Bali in a week and have other trivialities to attend to – like booking a months’ worth of accommodations and side-treks. So you’ll have to excuse me for the hasty in-anger post.
As for “I shoot on a sturdy tripod” – I bought the A7r as a travel camera (see above) so it’s not likely I’ll be in much of a position to use it via tripod.
PJP – the camera is still en route so yes, I could do that. I just wish I had known about this sooner so that I could’ve saved myself the potential hassle of a return when I’m pressed for time (see above).
The real question I have is – if I’m only using FE lenses with no adapter, and I’m not buying a gigantor telephoto, is this likely to be a non-issue?
It’s an issue primarily on tripod-mounted longer lenses with their own tripod foot at speeds between 1/15 and 1/150.
You may not need all of those factors to reproduce the issue. You are probably fine with the shorter lenses and hand held. If shooting in that scenario at about 24 oz of weight to the tripod mounted camera, or shoot faster or slower exposures.
I bought the A7r, the FE 35 and 55mm are on their way as I bought these this evening from a shop in New York so no test yet. I very much doubt that I’ll have issues with the Zeiss glass providing I remain steady and dont move. Brian Smith made superb pictures so if there was an issue then how did he do ? I have sent him an e-mail to ask but given he has done a tutorial book dedicated to the A7 and A7r I feel things should be ok. Some people explained that higher resolution cameras require very good technique to avoid blurred pictures.
If you bought it from a reputable seller with a return policy than use it, enjoy it and if you notice a problem with your photos than send it back when you return.
RN:
I have one piece of shooting advice that turned out to be very useful. The trigger on this camera is sort of soft. There isn’t a hard stop. I found myself sort of jerking the trigger instead of a steady squeezing pressue and this can actually shake the camera when shooting hand-held. Nice steady pressure gives a better result.
Regards,
John
Massad Ayoob would totally approve your technique.
I don’t think anyone has ever found the problem handheld. So no tripod, no problem. It’s an issue with a vibrational resonance with long heavy lenses and specific shutter speeds. Also, adding the portrait grip is a solution in most cases.
If you can still return it, return it and wait the next round. It is that simple; the problem would dissapear instantly.
Maybe because you didn’t read about it? It was all over the place… BTW, Loyds found the same or similar issue with the Leica M240. Dunno if he raised the same fuss about that one too.
Are most of your pictures blurred ? It seems that Brian Smith’s Haiti pictures were nice and not blurred in any ways. So is the issue genuine, was he given a twicked model ? I’d like to know since these pictures are a rather good benchmark. Ok, we would need to know the reject rate too… Has anyone asked Brian Smith his impressions regarding the A7r shutter vibes ?
Ok so these geniuses tried really hard to find a problem and found it. But didn’t they also realise 3 seconds later that adding a tiny weight (or a vertical grip) solved the problem? And now they’re shooting off petitions??
I received my A7r about 2 weeks ago. I tested it for 10 minutes with E-mount lenses, was not impressed but the FE lenses should do it justice. I’ll receive my FE 35mm and 55mm primes in a week as they dont sell these yet in Luanda, Angola… Then I’ll check if I get the blurr. I hope not.
I’m sorry, but isn’t this a problem on just about any camera when using a substandard tripod or support? It’s a very precise piece of gear, just like so many of my other cameras over the years and they all needed really solid support for crisp photos at slower shutter speeds.
Garry, I agree with what you are saying. I have a conclusion.
Whiners will whine.
They will dig until they can find something to whine about.
Why do they do this?
Simple, that’s what whiners do, they whine.
I’ve been using the a7r with SAL100M28. Telephoto + macro and I’ve no issue with shutter. I started photography with film SLR where there’s no image stabilization. Maybe someone just got used to have help from image stabilization aid from camera.
Is this just a pixelpeeping problem?
Yes.
The A7r may cause a little more vibration than other cameras, which is amplified due to the high pixel count.
The great majority of it comes down to technique and one’s base. I shoot 1:1 macro with a huge 180mm lens on an adapter and have eliminated the issue with just a tiny bit of technique.
I have just came across this http://briansmith.com/books/sony-a7-a7r-book/ from Brian Smith web site. I doubt he would be issuing a book with his name on it if he was not satisfied with the A7 and A7r cameras.
I do not have an A7 or A7r, so cannot confirm the issue, but if one exists then there is absolutely no chance that Sony will acknowledge it.
I have discovered or suffered a long list of problems, from bizarre autofocus issues to flash overheating and ludicrous studio flash situations, often shared by many others and there has never been a hint that Sony have accepted a single one publicly.
Perhaps, behind the scenes, they tweak something here and there for the next model (not always!), but for current customers you might as well wish for the moon!
It is the most obvious contradiction between Sony’s professed ambition to be number one and yet to completely ignore the deafening shouts of their existing customers. The two situations are totally incompatible. Unless Sony wake up they will never achieve their goal.
+1
Amen to that
what autofocus problem were you having?
On my NEX cameras (5R and 5N), I’ve always noticed that when you are trying to focus on far away, it would focus on somewhere closer, and so the distance is never fully sharp, I do think it might be from the camera trying to achieve hyper focal or its using an average of close and far in the scene to estimate a distance to focus on
(and sometimes it would just completely not focus and take a blurry photo)
My focus issue is very specific and only obviously appears during setting of microadjust when using lenses of 135mm and longer.
Basically, if you set a focus taget at about 4 metres and then manually turn the lens to closest focus point for a start position, when half pressing the shutter it will confirm focus at about 1.5 metres, even though it is obviously not focussed.
This is repeated for both A99 bodies I have and with all lenses of 135mm and over that I have, in any combination, so I know it is not a fault in a particular item.
However, given the peculiar combination to arrive at the fault, I haven’t pursued a solution, rather just to be aware it exists.
The flash overheating etc., are rather more serious…
Diglloyd represents a seminal achievement in Internet marketing. And yet, we are also frustrated by the Lloyd Chambers converting many normal photographers into pixel-peeping zombies that make unreasonable demands of camera manufacturers
1. The Sony A7R shutter vibration issue is a user-fabricated issue, amplified by a large contingent of try-hard pixel peepers, complaining about loss of image quality (blur) that can be prevented with modestly good technique.
2. We ask that Lloyd Chambers stop publicly embarrassing himself with these fairy-tale issues, and to publicly acknowledge that technique and not hardware is to blame for his blurry photos of brick walls.
3. We ask Lloyd Chambers to issue a public statement on what *if any* action he intends to take to learn how to properly operate a camera and stop drawing attention to himself and his paid website by confusing and scaring camera consumers with this hokum.
4. We ask Lloyd to investigate ways to change the laws of physics to ensure he somehow gets an actual 36 megapixels of “resolution” from all of his photos of fences with a small form factor Bayer sensor camera that was always marketed as not having EFC.
5. As reasonable human beings, we expect Lloyd Chambers cease spouting off about various exaggerated “issues” and explanations for his blurry photos and place ridiculous demands on the major vendors he doesn’t like for attention.
In support and agreement:
//The Entire Internet
+1 Signed.
+1
you said it man!
I have no affiliation with Diglloyd, I support his information, and there IS a problem with the A7r and shutter vibration.
I have used the A7R LA-EA4 and my 70-400mm G in quite trying circumstances, gusting winds on a bridge in the range of shutter speeds that appear to be causing issues . I was shooting very fine detailed structures, I had perfectly sharp non blurred image all this before this issue came out. I have gone over the images carefully since and can see nothing untoward at all. These were taken using a Manfrotto 075b and 168 ball head tripod set up and the self timer(a bit tricky to do in the wind).
I have used both the 55 1.8 and 35mm 2.8 Zeiss native glass a Sony 50mm macro and a CZ24-70 among others and the images were brilliant without issue, both on and off tripod over a huge range of exposures.
My feeling is that careful technique is required with this and any high pixel count cameras and poor technique will cause issues.
Is there an issue?
Not for me so far, but for others it appears so, as someone has posted previously a heap of great work is being shot and posted online without complaint. Some independent testing might be in order done by someone or an organization with no axe to grind or internet traffic to capture to help unpack this issue.
It would be nice to see this issue resolved positively and not in a firestorm of ill considered thoughts and words.
… and let the games begin!
Being from NJ, my satire can be abrasive – so I don’t have real hard feelings… but this thing is overblown. A shutter-delay will quiet everyone and make them realize that technique is the largest culprit in this caper.
lol +7,000,000,000 (or is it 8 billion people on earth now?) minus Lloyd and his buddies of course.
+1
(i think Andrea, the SAR admin, is on the wrong side on this)
To Andrea’s defense, he is always on the side of improving Sony cameras and making them better.
Lloyd seems to be on the side of Lloyd.
Then he should choose his battles carefully! 😉
+1 SIGNED!!!!
Absolutely brilliant!
Bravo! Look at the amazing pictures already produced on so many sites by this camera. Gotta love the power of fear. I know it had me worried until I did my homework.
+1 bravo, encore
+1, i don’t see it as much as big of a problem as some people with too much time on their hands claim it to be
+1
In my opinion, this “issue” is seriously overblown, soundimageplus guy already send his photos to stock houses and if they return it back because of blur issue, I’m pretty sure he’ll make a post complaining bout it.
Modern photographers are pitiful:
http://beforethecoffee.com/sony-a7r-vibration-comparison-with-nikon-d3-and-sony-nex-7/
For more jollies here is one with no shutter at all.
http://carnagepro.com/pics/m&m.jpg
Not sure if you know bout this , but Llyod responded negatively on this guy post, if I’m not mistaken he tweeted about it
I remember an interview with the team of engineers designing the a7(r), and if I remember correctly, they said making the full frame shutter work as it should in such a small body was one of the main challenges they had to deal with during development. they seem to have worked very hard on the shutter. both noise and vibration issues seem to be inevitable tradeoffs when putting such a big, high resolution sensor into such a small body. as soon as they can make a faster 36mp sensor, the problem should be solved.
Maybe it isn’t even a shutter vibration issue but a loose diode or sensor or something, seems funny not all of us are getting this problem. We probably shouldn’t question Lloyd he might get mad call us all idiots. In a way I hope Sony does pay attention and get a new firmware update out. Uncompressed raw files, more choices for magnification when shooting manual, full HDR implementation, auto ISO more configurable.. etc etc etc.
Take a lesson from Nikon and the d600 debacle: there were thousands, if not tens of thousands of posts on the oil and dust on sensor issue – it was a pervasive problem, not one of selective use. Did it seriously hinder the popularity of the model? Did it force Nikon into anything more than a cursory advisory? No x 2.
Caveat emptor – you know the possible problem, you takes your chance & the issue is improved in the next iteration.
Even with the Nikon, it was a clear design flaw and a somewhat serious issue when encountered. With this, it’s more a mix of design compromise to get us a huge MP camera with a small body – and user technique.
It’s so sad to see people having little fits about this… when the reasonable people out there understood it when the specs for the camera came out.
the D600 issue was grossly exaggerated by whiners and trolls from other systems. It is a major mistake to consider forums as a source of reliable data.Only a tiny percentage of users were affected and for the vast majority of them a simple sensor clean fixed it.The D600 sold by the boat load often topping the FF sales charts.
This is no help to those who did not get their problem resolved but nonetheless I would not base a judgement on a bunch of whiny posters on camera forums.
Seems I am enjoying a collectors item! I don’t understand the fuzz. Still a happy guy.
I let my pictures do the talking, shutting the critics up…
The A7r is a frickin amazing camera. I am using it with many lenses, even telephoto lenses attatched to tripods with tripod collars.
No shutter shock.
I get more shutter shock from my EM-5
Sony, welcome to the big leagues, where you get a lot of money for your goods but in return attract a lot of people who get pissy when you fail to deliver perfection. If you think this petition is annoying, imagine how life must be for Leica or Hasselblad.
On the flip side of the coin, I completely relate to folks who get upset when their gear doesn’t work the way they think it ought to. I’ve been there, though, in my own irrationality, I think my complaint had more justification than this one does.
And then there’s the rest of us who’re happy to say that the A7r is a nice tool with a few unexpected but work-around-able limitations.
Lets have a look. The only way there can be vibration is if the live view close/open cycle, the start of the exposure, leaves some vibration in the camera, as the exposure is made. The close cycle starts with close so it is not to blame.
If you use 2 sec delay, the close/open cycle, only does the close, then 2 secs later the open. There can be no vibration from the shutter actuation in this case. I would never notice any problem as it’s almost the only way I shoot with my Fuji X-E1 and most certainly with the a7R I will do little else.
I used delay all the time on my FM2 way back in the last century and nothing has changed for me here. I always thought it was just laziness on my part, not bringing a cable release, but it appears to be best practice. 😉
Firmware approach – avoid 1/100 shutter speed in Auto, Aperture Priority and Program mode. Problem solved.
I think we are seeing the ramifications of a camera that never existed prior to the A7R. Full frame 36 meg packed into a tiny camera … not just tiny, but also a relatively light weight camera. Even Leica M cameras, which are close in size, feel denser and have a lot more heft to them.
When the D800 came out, Nikon went to great lengths to give photographers a heads up regarding both lenses that were up to 36 meg, and the need to really pay attention to technique … and this is a more traditional sized DSLR.
Point is, the A7R is probably far more demanding than most photographers are used to … and previous habits are often hard to break.
I’ve read most all of the shutter shock test threads all over the place (except Lloyd’s). IMO, they are quite confusing and contradictory. The problem seems to stem from all the variables … which non-native lens is used and how long? … which adapter, how the set-up is attached to a tripod (direct camera? Quick Release? Lens foot? Conflicting reports even on this), which head, which tripod. Outdoors or indoors? Wind no wind?
The loud shutter seems to point to shutter shock … the question is, when does any shock actually happen? Conflicting reports on this also.
Then there is the whole “voice of authority”, that is difficult to sort out on the web. Just because someone speaks with great conviction, doesn’t make them right … in either case we have to question any report, good or bad.
The only report I had read that concerned me was use of a Leica M 90mm on a tripod at slower shutter speeds (1/20 thru 1/100 or so).
I tested my own M90mm on the A7R in studio on an old Leitz Tilt-All tripod direct mount to the camera, 10 second delay, f/5.6 at all shutter speeds using Profoto strobe modeling lights that I can step up a stop as I step down a stop in shutter speed, Live View mag focus using a variety of test targets designed for such exercises. In other words elimination of as many variables as possible.
I could not detect any shutter blur at any speed even at 200% … results that fly in the face of the adamant report I had read on-line. WTF?
Frankly, I am not sure I’d attach a Leica super tele lens to such a dinky camera anyway … and if I did it wouldn’t be with any of the support rigs I’ve seen people using.
– Marc
most of the people on the internet who do these “tests” are not scientists, they would basically do what they see other people do on the internet and then provide their findings as facts (at least to the best of their knowledge) without fully understanding any other variables which may affect the result.
thats why there are all these standards for testing on everything (automobile, electronics, etc), because its a standardized method of measuring and comparing intended to eliminate different variables and try to obtain the most comparable results.
well done for doing your own tests and not just blindly following the results of another person on the internet 🙂
I also own the A7r and have zero problems or alleged “shutter shock”. Well said Mr. Williams.
The real sad thing is that cameras are rushed to the market in a period when camera demand is not high like it was two years ago and the companies have more time to tweak them before release. Few release good and constant updates (Fuji) and some prefer to launch a new model if the previous one had critical issues even they don’t officially admit it (Nikon D600). Some prefer to carry those issues to the next models (Olympus & shutter shock).
In the end it’s us, the consumers, that we are really fooled by the PR and the Marketing of the companies. Shrewd salesmen, rushed engineering, bad QC and mediocre reliability. That’s business nowadays!
I have an A7r and don’t have any issues.
Lloyd says:
“Photographers Ask Sony to Address… ”
“The “public” request is merely that: acknowledging the issue is necessarily the first step to addressing…”
This is an issue only for some of us not all photographers or general public. So stop pretending to be representing us and speak the truth from your own side. We will support you if you only do that.
Just a note: I’m not denying that there is an issue, nor am I confirming or denying there is one based on a couple of tests of my own. My tests were specific to the lenses I own, and the way I shoot … which may not be valid for others.
What I do question are expectations of perfection when it simply doesn’t exist anywhere with anything. As comic Gilda Radner said when told she had terminal cancer … “It’s always something”.
In, short, the A7R can’t do everything, for everyone, in all circumstances, for everyone. Nothing can.
I knew about the loud shutter from U-Tube reviews, plus the shutter shock was being well reported, and incompatibility with many rangefinder wide-angle lenses had already been revealed … before my pre-ordered A7R even shipped.
The A7R camera arrived a few days after I returned a Leica M240 demo camera I had been trying out and testing for two weeks prior. The issues with the M240 color rendering, IR contamination due to a weak IR filter at the sensor, and banding at ISOs from 3200 up, prompted the return … issues either heavily disputed, or minimized by M240 owners … often insultingly. This was the first new M camera I passed on since my first Leica M4 rangefinder. However, it wasn’t a matter of expecting perfection, it was that the imperfections are the type that are hard to deal with for the way I shoot, and quite difficult to ignore at a $7,000 price point.
So, I understand if some folks opted to return the A7R based on their own way of shooting, and their level of specific expectations from a camera at this price point.
The above makes me (no one else) a bit more forgiving of a $2,300 camera that does great color, and excellent higher ISO, not to mention allows use of four of my six Leica M lenses, two native FE AF lenses (so far), and all seven of my ZA mount lenses.
I did a 3 day job in Miami recently … took the A7R, A99 and a Leica M Monochrome … each camera did its job nicely without issues, and the client loved the results. BTW, part of the assignment required shooting in “unavailable” light so low that ISO 12,800 using the Leica M50/0.95 Noctilux at 1/50 shutter on the S7R was required!
The old adage “Horses For Courses” still applies whether we like it or not.
– Marc
I have no value in Loydd review. I have tried many lenses and haven’t found any problem.
I don’t say that there is some issues, but more that I think this is a way for loydd to advertise his website (he releases no proof at all – you need subscription to see it)…
As said by many, this story of vibrations only requires those antishake techniques that any good photographer always uses anyway.
It is irrelevant to me.
On the other hand I see a nemesis on digital age photographers and a liability for Sony. In the old time of film, top of the line cameras were large and heavy. Two 35 mm examples: Leica M5 (the largest and heaviest M ever) and a RTSIII (a huge tank). I love them today and have always loved them. The RTSIII shutters whispers and yet Contax-Zeiss stated that the right weight (a ton by today’s standards) was an essential design constraint to dampen vibrations. Get one RTSIII in your hands and see for yourself. And tell me if awesome is enough
Mass market pushes this idiot quest for small and light, which is intolllerable for hight end cameras and Sony has his liability for conceding to the trend in his hight end models.
Now you guys, that never used film cameras, have what you deserve. I am glad that you don’t know how to prevent shake. It is us, old film guys, that pay the price for this mass market stupidity applied to serious photography by the irresponsible marketing policies of various brands
I am amazed on how many responses refute the problem of the A7r, I wanted and waited for it’s release. The fact is that there are issues, and not minor ones. Those who criticize the so called “whistleblowers” are in my opinion followers of the fairy tale of “the Emperor’s new Clothes” …sad, and subjective
Frick, do you have the A7R? If so, what issues do you feel are not minor? If not, how do you know what is written is true for you?
As I said earlier, not all cameras can meet everyone’s expectations.
Personally, I do not condemn so called “whistleblowers” because they can give you an advanced heads-up regarding possible things that may affect YOUR way of shooting, or not meet YOUR needs.
I’ve been a whistleblower myself in past (Leica M8 magenta blacks due to weak IR sensor filter that I reported on the LUF).
However, the practice has become a crusade with certain bloggers evangelizing for all aspects of every camera to meet everyone’s every need in all conditions … and when it doesn’t, all hell breaks loose. The internet explodes, petitions are signed, whiners jump on the bandwagon, extreme torture tests are devised, etc.
All to often a subset of a subset of photographers latch onto a piece of gear because it seems to solve one of their needs, only to find out it doesn’t … then their disappointment becomes legion, and their voice reaches a defining cacophony that drowns out anyone else.
I never even once thought this camera belongs on a massive tripod, or considered it for super telephoto photography. Just because we can, doesn’t mean we should. I happen to agree with Paul … the mass isn’t there.
However, I’m not a landscape shooter looking to make massive prints to be viewed at nose touching distances.
For how and what I shoot, I see no major issue except taking the time to master a new tool rather than blaming it.
– Marc
I did, and I returned it.
Issues? , in a studio situation that on a large tripod (gitzo, if you are interested), with remote release, unreliable results. Should I weigh the camera, I do not think so.
As far as the other long winded comments, no comment.