SAR reader Stilgar posted a big A7r ($2300) vs Leica M240 ($7000) comparison. As we have seen from previous tests the Leica still shows a better corner performance also because Leica provides Lens correction and the Sony doesn’t. In all other areas (High ISO, color, resolution) the A7r is definitely better. Still, I would love Sony to deliver a cameras as well built and as elegant as a Leica M 🙂
Here are the tests:
Iso comparison here : http://www.flickr.com/photos/stilgarnaib/11242509894/in/set-72157638420888705
M-mount lenses here, center crop and corner crop too : http://www.flickr.com/photos/stilgarnaib/sets/72157638447272734/
One for noise performances : http://stilgar-photo.blogspot.ch/2013/12/sony-a7r-vs-leica-m.html
One for the 18SE performances : http://stilgar-photo.blogspot.ch/2013/12/sony-a7r-vs-leica-m-part-02-leica-super.html
One for the Cron35 : http://stilgar-photo.blogspot.ch/2013/12/sony-a7r-vs-leica-m-part-03-leica.html
One for the Voigt 35 1.2 : http://stilgar-photo.blogspot.ch/2013/12/sony-a7r-vs-leica-m-part-03-voigtlander.html
One for the noctilux f1 : http://stilgar-photo.blogspot.ch/2013/12/sony-a7r-vs-leica-m-part-06-leica.html
One for the Cron75 APO : http://stilgar-photo.blogspot.ch/2013/12/sony-a7r-vs-leica-m-part-06-leica-apo.html
And one for the resolution : http://stilgar-photo.blogspot.ch/2013/12/sony-a7r-vs-leica-m-part-07-quid-de-la.html
Links to the tested lenses:
Leica Super-Elmar 18 ASPH for f3.4 to f16 [shoplink 23445 ebay](lens here on eBay)[/shoplink].
Leica Summicron 35 ASPH from f2 to f16 [shoplink 22603 ebay](lens here on eBay)[/shoplink].
Voigtlander Nokton 35 Aspherical 1.2 II from f1.2 to f16 [shoplink 23446 ebay](lens here on eBay)[/shoplink].
Leica Noctilux 50 f1 from f1 to f16 [shoplink 23447 ebay](lens here on eBay)[/shoplink].
Leica APO-Sumicron 75 ASPH from f2 to f16 [shoplink 23448 ebay](lens here on eBay)[/shoplink].
52 Responses
Wish Sony would give us something comparable to the medium format S2 Leica, rather than the rangefinders.
Yes, please ensure all Mamiya, Leica, Hassy, Fuji, and Bronica lenses could fit. Heck, I’d even try my old Kowa’s!
Medium format could really benefit from an giant EVF with short lens registration. Please ensure all leaf shutter lenses are accommodated.
Medium Format sells a few thousand bodies a year worldwide. I doubt Sony wuld ahve any interest in a slice of a very small pie.
Nice comparison. My conclusion is that there is a place for both cameras.
The Leica is still best for M lenses where enlargements won’t exceed 1.5 meters wide (probably 90% of normal use).
The Sony is the real Leica-R lens solution, where angle of image from the lens is not as severe, corner sharpness will not be as much of a problem, and focusing will be easier with a viewfinder.
One important part about the Sony is a sensor self cleaner. It is not fun cleaning the M sensor or going over image files, intended for 2 meter and larger prints, pixel by pixel for dust spots (I stitch some images for large scale prints).
If i had know this camera was coming, I may have not traded my M9 for the M240 last spring.
I’m 100% with you on the M240 dust spots. So hard to get rid of them! Makes me want to shoot everything with the aperture wide open. The Sony is much cleaner.
Sony as well build & elegant as the Leica… are you willing to pay for that?
I’m already happy if Sony includes a bit more weather seal for the A7 series in the future 🙂
Elegant as leica? Lolz
Fanboyism blinds.
Kajargoogoo11 hours ago | Reply Sony as well build & elegant as the Leica… are you willing to pay for that?
I’m already happy if Sony includes a bit more weather seal for the A7 series in the future
LensIsAll6 hours ago | Reply Elegant as leica? Lolz
Fanboyism blinds
Not at all! It is YOU who are blind. Sony cameras and Sony user hate blindness, I guess.
Didn’t you understand what Kajargoogoo11 wrote?
I’ll reprase it for you:
‘Are you willing to PAY for a Sony camera as well built & elegant as the Leica…’?
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Sorry for the unneccesary long post above – as we all know we have still no edit function in this comment section. Disregard the three first paragraphs – these are qoutations of the two posts I responded to.
My own post is just the two last paragraphs.
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Sorry for the unneccesary long post above – as we all know we have still no edit function in this comment section. Disregard the three first paragraphs – these are qoutations of the two posts I responded to.
My own post is just the two last paragraphs.
And on top of that it seems as I got the Captcha letters wrong, so I’ll try to post this “edit” one more time.
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Range finder style is more classic than DSLR shape.
What exactly is “rangefinder style” if there is no rangefinder involved?
We might as well say they are “Instamatic style,” which, given the lack of presence of a rangefinder, has the advantage of being more accurate:
https://www.google.com/search?q=instamatic&tbm=isch&source=iu&imgil=6VGlScDfj9QCEM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQH1Km851xzZAKQ0ZbKrbdqIyGHDycyyAL2gtXHA76_uYzPz1WWgA%253B1280%253B960%253BgCk2Ttd0t2HXcM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FInstamatic&sa=X&ei=P7q-UtmdF6X42AX_zoDYCA&ved=0CDgQ9QEwAg&biw=1388&bih=547#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=6VGlScDfj9QCEM%3A%3BgCk2Ttd0t2HXcM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252F3%252F3b%252FKodak_Instamatic_404.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FInstamatic%3B1280%3B960
“Still, I would love Sony to deliver a cameras as well built and as elegant as a Leica M…”
That’s exactly the point. This is a great camera, with amazing specs, right sensor, and right price… but it is so ugly. It looks boring and it feels boring in your hands. The designers did suck a poor job. I still haven’t purchase the camera and I am not sure if I am going to. It seems that Sony will never learn how to build an elegant camera.
Ugliness is a matter of taste.
I had a Leica ( M2 ) ages ago, and don’t have an A7/7R ( I have A99 ). I like the A7/7r very handsome, but the A99 is the design I like most!
I will never understand why the looks of a camera matters so much. it is a tool we use to take photographs, not a fashion accessory or jewelry. I’ll take function over form any day.
Porko Morko Lorko wrote:
“It seems that Sony will never learn how to build an elegant camera.”
Don’t believe there are many who will agree with you about that statement.
Personally, I’d say that both A77 and A99 are very elegant cameras. And the more classic A900 too. Some Canon/Nikon owners used to mock me when showing up with my Sony camera, but after one day having appeared with a (borrowed) A900 mounted with a Zeiss 135/1,8 ZA, I was never mocked again… 🙂
Further, the RX1/R cameras certainly have both elegance, style and class.
And finally, basically all people I have met who have actually seen and handled any A7 camera a little, thinks it has an unusally good blend of function and design. Particularly when considering the unbelivable lot of power Sony have succeded to squeeze into such a light and “compacted” body. 🙂
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Porko Morko Lorko wrote:
“It seems that Sony will never learn how to build an elegant camera.”
OTOH, they don’t have to. They have Hassy for that. 🙂
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I agree that the A7/R design is nor elegant nor nioe and that is very much frustrating but I disagree that all Sony’s designs are ugly. The NEX and RX1/R series cameras designs are great. NEX-5 and NEX-6 are great designs IMHO.
I find the a7 to have rather clean and functional design. Especially with the grip added. The Leicas were good design, but I consider it entirely outdated. They just redo the same thing over and over.
Instead of trying to make wide RF lenses work on the A7r, perhaps people should consider it as the Leica R solution.
> The Leica R Solution
Completely agree. Unfortunately I sold off most of my R lenses 10 years ago =/
At least I am now rediscovering Nikon AIS lenses. Some of them are very good, easily the equal of the rebadged-Minoltas which were some of the Leica R line. Wish I hadn’t sold the 100-R-APO-Macro though. Sigh. The 105mm Micro-Nikkor I just got is good, but not quiet there.
As for my Leica M lenses, into deep storage they go. Maybe one day someone will come up with a full-frame digital camera which works with them flawlessly and is priced reasonably (ahem, less than $3K).
They stopped making R lenses years ago. While modern M lens designs are still being made by at least 4 makers. M mount is far more viable.
How can you say that color on the Sony is “definitely” better?
I would say: it’s definietly worse.
@lensisall Michael Reichman over at the Luminous Landscape has stated that it’s Sony who’s won this battle… and he’s owned every Leica since the M2 except for the M5.
Also, just generally speaking here but the idea that the camera needs to be pretty is such such unmitigated ego driven crap it makes me shake. Go buy a Nikon Df and placate your E.D. Leave the A7r to people who just want to shoot.
+10000 Amen. Some people I guess want their cameras to be jewelry!
IMO the Df is just as ugly as the a7/R, just in a different way.
This is not a comparison. Why hobble the Sony camera with Leica lenses? And too, has the writer investigated the errors to image quality because of the adapter placed on the Sony? Aren’t Leica lenses optimized for Leica cameras? Aren’t the Zeiss ZA , FE lenses optimized for the Sony cameras? How would the Leica fare in this test v. Sony if it had Zeiss lenses attached via an adapter in say a test at 50mm: the Leica with attached Zeiss f1.8 50mm ZA FE lens v. the Sony with the same lens?
If you’re going to compare the two cameras and their respective IQ, test the Leica with a Leica lens and the Sony with its Zeiss lens, yes?
JohnOliver! Great answer! disagree
Because it’s Leica lenses comparison between bodies, you dumb
How about testing Sony with Sony lens? 😉
Seriously though: this comparsion is somewhat foolish, cause it forces you to admit that there’s next to none lenses for A7 and you have basically a glorified compact in a size of small DSLR. That’s not an option for A7 fans, so they have to show off adapters.
Why do people say Leicas are “well built”? There have been lots of reports of Leicas arriving with cracked sensors, bad sensors and badly off rangefinders.
Or is “well built” a nice way of saying big and heavy? 😀
Leicas are big fat heavy monstrosities that only feed off $1000 bills.
If you are using Sony A7/A7R and can not produce a first class photo, it is unlikely the fault of the camera. Both Leica M and Sony A7/R can be used to make great photos.
Isn’t the Lens correction app on the Sony essentially the same as the Leica corrections only having to set it up? As far as I know it is the construction type of the lens that makes some wide angle lenses less suited for A7-series.
Give me the A7r any day.
Actually, give me the Leica,
and I’ll sell it and buy an A7r and some lenses 😉
“I would love Sony to deliver a cameras as well built and as elegant as a Leica M ”
Elegant?? Seriously?? What is elegeant in a brick? Not to mention that photographing with a brick is PITA. Even this respected French Leica specialist had to buy an additional grip for his Leica M for comfortable photo shooting. The retro in photography is a big mistake. What is the purpose in designing a $7000 camera that requires an add on grip for additional money?
Leica bodies are Ok, but the lenses really are brilliant!
Corners and edge smearing of detail is really a bummer.
The M9 beats both of these in this area. Sadly, edge and corner performance is kind of what you pay for (among other things) with expensive Leica lenses… so with the A7r I find myself saying sometimes “what the hell am I doing with this lens?”
I love the A7(r) shooting experience, but when quality matters, the M9 comes out.
Who needs edge anyway?
With 36MPs there’s certainly room to shoot wider and crop the edges!
That may be true – but you might as well get a NEX-7 then. Cropping off all the edges to fix image problems kind of defeats the purpose of having a 35mm format sensor.
And good “wider” lenses are expensive! Look at a 28mm Summicron vs a 35mm. Or the Zeiss 15mm vs. 18mm!
My main M rangefinder is a Leica M Monochrome. For me B&W and RF are synonymous. I have a wide range of M lenses.
I got the A7R after extensive testing of a Leica M240 demo. Great camera with its own set of issues. Prior to that I shot any rangefinder color with a M9/M9P.
What the A7R has brought to the party is more pleasing natural color/contrast out of the camera, especially skin tones compared to the M240 with its documented IR contamination, wonky AWB, and need for extensive profiling … and much higher ISO performance and DR compared to the M9. The A7R can come out and play when the M9 has long been relegated back to the camera bag.
My main criteria was use of the Leica M50/0.95 and M75/2AA neither of which suffer edge issues on the A7R. Neither does the M21/1.4ASPH that can’t be easily corrected in post. The 50 and 75 lenses are much easier to focus up-close and off-center than is possible with any center oriented rangefinder camera.
I was of the opinion that no CMOS sensor camera could deliver the feel of the M9 CCD files … now I’m not so sure about that … I’ve been getting really close with the A7R, and with a bit more work will be there … but without all the short-comings of the M9.
So, I can’t use all the M lenses, but I do not have to since this new A7R is so adaptable.
Skipping the Leica M240 is the first M model I have not bought since the M4. Elegant is one thing, paying $7.000 only to see it outdated in 2 years is another. $7K buys me this A7R, the next A8R, and the next A9R.
BTW, regarding quality … take this A7R into the studio and there no longer any comparison to any M … in fact, it is creeping up on my stalwart Leica S2.
– Marc
Wish people would stop wanting bad cameras just because its good to offense poor people with it and start taking good photos with there gear.
Rangefinder is a “way of taking photos”. It’s different from any other way of doing photography. Talking about design, it’s a matter of taste, you may like it or not, simple.
Personally I’d prefer a Monochrom to any other camera, because of the rangefinder experience and its special feeling. Of course I know many people find it a limited camera, and that’s fine.
It is limited 🙂 I think most people have an issue with Leica’s pricing. I hope the OVF won’t become the same luxury in a few years.
Vlad don’t worry 🙂 I understand why a lot of people consider it limited. And I agree: that über price is the main problem.. An M240 costs about 3000 euros to Leica to produce it. I wish they could lower production costs a little bit, but I don’t see it coming without a loss somewhere..
It remains a dream, at the moment.
How about this: http://cargocollective.com/iovokitangra/Ikon-digital-concept-camera
That’s beautiful!
I’d like Zeiss to take it into consideration, but I would expect a premium price for it..
I wonder how a digital rangefinder would work: perhaps as the “double image shifting” as on x100s.
I find it really nice, a smart touch is the grip.
Totally agree. The M Monochrome is the first digital camera that feels long term to me like the film Ms were. It is specialized and very good at what it was designed to do. Most of all, it preserves the rangefinder way of photography which is separate and apart from all other considerations.
In response to Leica “build and elegance” (& price). As a long time user of Leica, the build quality and reliability is the most important factor, the elegance and price are very secondary. I expect a camera with a 7K price to be the best in class on the market.
Unfortunately, the M240 is failing. Mine stops working on hot days in direct sun from heat failure (5-8 degrees below the max operating temperature of the specifications). My Canon cameras have easily functioned outside of the specified operating temperature range. Also, 24 mega-pixel is just not state of the art, and the color rendition of skin tones is often problematic (the M9 was much better)(note, for landscape and architecture it is fine). (all because the sensor was sourced from the EU possibly to avoid import taxes,)
The Sony has the best sensor on the spec sheet. That is what is most important for taking photographs.
I am used to having cameras (view & M6) that function flawlessly in all weather conditions that I can withstand. That should be one of the primary goals. Image quality and reliability are really what is important (unless you consider a camera jewelry)
Does any one else remember the Leica ad with the camera encased in a block of ice “if you could reach the camera it would work”
The Sony is a simple design that is easy to use, if it is reliable in extreme temperature ranges & for professional use, I will be very happy with the a7r. (I will also love the self cleaning sensor)
Again, your report simply restates the obvious: Leica lenses work best on Leica cameras. Had you examined the effects of the adapter on lens alignment with the optical path and the inevitable lens tilt that ANY adapter imparts on any mix of lenses with camera bodies of other manufacturers you might have a valuable report. But, such a report by Roger Sicala has already been written e.g. You simply cannot “mix and match” lenses via adapters to non-native camera bodies as you have done with Leica to Sony and expect optimal results regards to lens quality. You would get the same results -of your “test” had you attached a Zeiss 50mm FE lens to a Leica M and compared that combination to the A7R with the Zeiss FE 50mm -the Sony camera would display superior IQ particularly at the edges than the Leica.
Yes, the A7 needs more Zeiss glass but everyone knows that too. Why not compare the two cameras on the basis of what we have at the moment:
a Leica M with a Leica 50mm v. a Sony A7R with a Zeiss 50mm ZA (FE) lens. But maybe everyone knows what that outcome would be?
Best regards 🙂
Interesting, and probably on the mark with the lenses tested. Short register lenses suffer when the mount angle is off by parts of a degree, so as you have stated, it is highly unlikely that the test is valid considering the average quality of most adapters (outside of the central image zone).
I would suggest that both cameras be tested with a lens such as the Hasselblad 250 SA, which is considered a benchmark of optical design, and would have much greater tolerance for misalignment (due to the long optical register).
R lenses and Hasselbald lenses have given me wonderful results on both my Canon and my M240 (much better in most situations where a tripod was used over Canon L lenses) (can’t beat IS without a tripod though)