Not only “pure” Sony camera and lens owners should follow SonyAlphaRumors the next days. Sony will launch an extraordinary new E-mount camera featuring a new tech: It has a sort of [shoplink 18446 ebay]Contax AX (here one Bay)[/shoplink] focusing system! You see it at work on the video on top. I don’t know yet the very details of the Sony solution but the sensor can move on the Z-axis. This has been done to fully support non Sony lenses. It’s the trojan hourse from Sony to make it easy for Canon and Nikon lens owners to switch over to Sony. I am waiting for the exact details on tech from my Sony sources (will get them soon). Nikon, Canon user (but obviously also Pentax and so on) will be very tempted to buy this camera!
UPDATE: This is a report from a source that tested the camera:
The sensor is mount on a tray that slide in Z direction. It allows approximately 18mm of focus adjustment. As actuator you have strong piezoelectric servo, this make for rapid movement back-forth if selected that option.
Meantime: How the Contax AX AF works:
The Contax AX unique autofocus system works with manual focus lenses by moving the film plane inside the camera. A side benefit of this arrangement is that it allowed the AX to feature a macro mode which worked much like a built-in 10 mm extension tube, allowing for a magnification ratio higher than 1:1 without the use of bellows or extension tubes (Source: Wikipedia Contax). Link to [shoplink 18446 ebay]Contax AX auctions on eBay (Click here)[/shoplink].
Stay tuned, I will get details and pics of the new camera soon!
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SR1=probably fake rumor
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273 Responses
This seems really attractive. Sony is leading the way with respect to innovation. But they should also make sure that it stays so that others (Nikon, Canon… etc.,) follow suit. If they could bring this NEX E-Mount FF that can also be used with Canon, Nikon FF lenses, I’m sure this camera will sell like hot cakes.
That was Contax innovation, not Sony.
And not exactly a huge success for Contax, but it might work better (and faster)today with a sensor to move and much improved electronics and AF-systems. You’d stil need adapters with electronic control for lenses without aperture ring (like EF).
In technology terms 1996 is ancient history, considering the amount that had to be moved it worked really well it was a decent attempt to add AF to what was then an excellent selection of manual focus lenses.This could be a real winner for Sony and it has certainly perked up my interest .I have an extensive selection of Nikon glass and the potential to use some of the gems on this is very tempting count me in.Though the lenses beyond a handful of primes will remain large the body alone should be a significant size and weight saving on current FF DSLR.
I remember Admin wanting this feature for a long time. So, yay. It is a great feature.
The only drawback I can imagine is that the sensor will need to move 18mm away from the lens, which will add to body thickness. I suppose the adapter could be longer instead, but that adds to the length as well. I’m eager to see how it is implemented!
Apple didn’t actually invented portable mp3 player or a tablet, yet people keep calling them innovative company. Innovation != invention, it’s how you improvise things.
if its E-mount and FF then i’d very much consider it! the physical size might be a bit bigger though, ive got some lenses which would benefit greatly from this 😀
The body would need to be as big as the A99 and it would not be able to have a mirror for all this to work.
Then if you set the focus on mirrorless lenses like E mount to infinity and mirror lenses like A mount to close, then it should be able to focus all lenses in the smallest sensor shift distance. This assumes on sensor focusing only though.
It will be very interesting to see if they can also manage sensor shift image stabilization. I don’t think any optical image stabilization would work with this design since the focal plane is moving to focus.
Soon Sony will be on top. RIP Nikon/Canon.
lol
Well they could sell a lot of bodies but it would need to be pretty pricey as they will not sell as many lenses.Just imagine the possibilities a bag full of only the very best lenses available from each system.
Actually, that a company feels that it have to constantly come up with new technical innovations, and spending enormous amounts of R&D money in the process, just to remain in the game, is not necessarily a good sign. Do they really get a return on all their investments?
Canon and Nikon are much more conservative with respect to innovations (even though they do make them, like the new 70D dual-pixel PDAF sensor, for example), and yet they have by far the largest market shares. Canon and Nikon probably spend much more money than Sony on marketing their cameras, though, and maybe that’s a better way to actually get a lot of customers, than spending it on technical innovations.
It isn’t a bad sign either. While Sony marketing is indeed lacking, I believe you are looking at it the wrong way. Canon and Nikon’s market shares have been built over a long period of time and not necessarily only thanks to marketing.
1. Sony has no intention of just “remaining in the game.”
2. It is in Sony’s blood to innovate, whereas Canon and Nikon have grown conservative with age. That is not a good sign for Canon and Nikon.
Example: see what happened to Nokia and Blackberry.
The one thing that Sony has always been known for is innovation. Always has and always will.
I grew up with Canon and still love Canon, but they simply suck more each year because they don’t care about innovation. The duel pixel 70D is actually pathetic performance (execution) for such an innovative idea. Imagine how lame Canon and Nikon would be if they didn’t have Sony, Olympus, and Panasonic pushing them. The 5 axis IBIS on the full frame Canon 6D would be KILLER!!! But they just don’t do it cause they don’t care.
If this happens, I will sell my Nikon D3200, my NEX-6 and all the E-Mount lenses that I have. I will buy this Camera body and use my fantastic Nikon FX lenses! Eagerly awaiting more news on this! My guess is that this camera would not be available for purchase until mid 2014. What do you guys think?
availability early 2014 I heard.
If it works, it would be a cool selling feature. If it works fast, then it would be the major selling feature. Right now, AF speed and accuracy is king.
A piece of sensor is probably lighter than a group of focusing element inside ordinary lens. Thus it can move faster. Not sure about focus breathing problem though.
I wonder about what does this mean for focusing speed? Also, the price of manual glass is going to go up again …
I am wondering it too. On paper it sounds great. But knowing Sony..damn it may doesn’t work that good 🙁
Let’s hope I am wrong here!
I am more or less convinced that Sony can solve this. The trick that Olympus does is to read the sensor really fast (120Hz) and also have an contrast detection that is able to process fast enough. Since the Olympus sensors are made by Sony that is not a hardware problem. I dearly hope the access to tech from Olympus or at least some in-house work from Sony to speed up their algorithms and processing pipeline will solve the slow autofocus. (in the best case even for some older models, but I doubt that.)
Having an in -body AF will make things better because you can put one expensive, precise and fast ultrasonic motor in the body instead of many of them in different lenses.
I really want to see how this works. I think there are many challenges to solve before it works perfectly.
It was serviceable with Contax. The raison d’erte of the AX was to allow Contax to compete with Canon and Nikon in the AF department without introducing AF lenses to the market. They could take advantage of their phenomenal MF lenses and still have AF.
With the availability of the 6D and D600, this AX camera really needs to be fullframe to attract interest.
It will work for both APS-C and FF. I have the details about the APS-C version.
Thinking outside the box, this might explain how an integrated hybrid mount could work with both A and E flange distances.
+1 😉
Clever man thinking of the clever solution to the multi-mount dilemma.
That’s a given with no more SLT mirror in the A-mount body the sensor is free to move from 18mm to 43.5MM and anywhere in between.
If there is an 18mm AF-Way, wich is exact the Mount-Sensor-Distance, there is no space for FF. The FF-Sensor with frame does not fit into the Mount-hole.
No need. Just use Speedbooster.
I wonder how much thicker it will be compared to the say A3000 and will it be pro grade?
I think I’ll hold judgement until I see the camera, not sure how much space a sensor moving assembly will take, I see this as more of a suitable tech for the Amount now that the mirrorbox is unoccupied
@ admin, will it be rangefinder style body or DSLR style? If Rangefinder and it works they have my money for sure…
I hope they simply make both.
The one I know is DSRL styled. But I heard of many more coming…so please stay tuned.
Nooo then I am out…
im gonna at least wait to see specs/price/form first before i decide if i like it or not 😀
Same for me, I love the RF form factor so much I’d rather stick with it from now on.
18mm of travel would mean a bizarrely thick rangefinder-style camera. Not that it’s impossible, but a DSLR form factor would make more sense.
Given the target market (people with large collections of Nikon or Canon glass), I’d figure this is going to be a follow-up to the A99, and you can order the adapters you need (A-mount, F-mount, EF-mount, maybe even M39/M42 or MD) alongside it.
If it’s rangefinder style it will have to be thick. Think of that ugly Pentax mirrorless with the Pentax mount. It’s not going to work IMO. It’ll probably be ‘dslr styled’ only.
my M9 is also rather thick, the M is said to be even thicker so I wouldn’t care if itis a thicker rangefinder style cam. Anyway let’s wait and see…
You can NOT gain 18mm of sensor movement and still have a rangefinder body. You also can NOT have a mirror and allow the sensor to be in the right position for E mount lenses. So you have to have a DSLR body with no mirror.
You still need an adaptor to use Canon or Nikon lenses. That means more stress on a lens, lower reliability, no weather resistance, additional hassle when switching lenses, and so on and so on.
Sorry, but if you expect massive migration of Nikon or Canon users to the E-mount – you WILL be disappointed.
yes, there will be no massive migration. But it makes switching from one system to another a step easier.
Any idea if this will work with Nikon G lenses? With the exception of the TS-E and 800mm lenses, they’re not completely electronically coupled and still use a mechanical aperture lever. Aside from Nikon’s own 1 series adapter, I don’t know of anyone who’s made an adapter that supports autofocus or in-camera aperture control with Nikon lenses.
Good question. I can see it fully working with the MF lenses but since Admin says that it would be for Canon and Nikon…I imagine G could be covered.
No it will just mean a standard conversion mount for the back of the lens. Once it is on its on. Done! No problems.
It actually depends on how well the adapter is made. It can be weather sealed, it can be reliable and easy to use. Not perfect and no massive switching, as you said, but plenty acceptable for a lot of people.
There isn’t any additional hassle when switching from one Nikon lens to another. I do it all the time. It is no different from changing lenses on any Nikon film SLR.
Nor do I see how there is any stress on the lens.
Weather resistance I grant you.
Olympus makes a weather-sealed m4/3 to 4/3 adapter to be used with the E-M5. Shouldn’t be a problem for Sony to make something similar.
Exactly.
Time to start buying these Contax lenses, prices will go through the roof.
+1
Indeed. I sold all of mine already because I didn’t see when will I need them again and I was also fearful the lack of use would promote the growth of fungus in them.
I didn’t have any gems but I had a nice 4 set.
Shame…
Which ones did you have?
35 2.8
50 1.4
84 1.4
25 2.8
Besides the 85, I didnt have the ones to REALLY have like the 28/2 or the 35/1.4
Perfect, I am interested in the 35 2.8 and the 85 1.4. What was your experience with those? And even the 25 2.8?
To me, the 85 was a fantastic lens. Gorgeous bokeh. It had a nice sharpness that complemented the bokeh. I would say sharper than the 50 1.4.
The 35 2.8 I didnt use much. It was a good lens from what I remember. At the time I had that lens as a back up to the Contax G2 and 35mm/2 I was using 90% of the time. The RTS III was doing the 50mm and 85mm coverage.
The 25mm was a back up for the 21mm biogon on the Contax. Not a perfect back up but I didnt have the money for the 21mm distagon (so expensive then and so expensive now) so that was better than no back up.
A great lens, nonetheless. Very sharp because the design was simple. The compact size was a plus but I always felt that if it was an f2 it would have seen more action.
They are… Already…
$h1t
Great.
im honestly confuse. why the need to move the sensor? if you want to mount canikon lens to e-mount body, you need the adaptor anyway, adaptor with proper length. all they need to do is to support the electronic communication.
they probably need it if they want to make a-mount body to take canikon lens, but isnt it easier if they make it for e-mount? its the future, just put ospdaf and IBIS to a DSLR shape full frame e-mount body and youre done.
Making MF lenses AF is what I would call a strong argument…
It would be handy for some jobs such as copying from a book using a copy stand, or photographing products for eBay.
For general outdoor photography, manual focussing is so easy anyway that results could well be worse, because of the tendency of autofocus to focus on the wrong things.
agree for still landscapes I don’t need it, But for a running kid it would be nice…
as far as i know sony doesn’t officially have access to canon/nikon’s communication protocol, plus having a electronic controller to convert messages (like metabone’s e-mount to Canon EF adapter) slows it down and so its not very good plus its expensive
if you have a universal back that can move sensor then any $10 mount from EF to E-mount will allow for autofocus 😀
I doesn’t need to.
You may want to know the aperture values electronically, but it doesn’t need to do anything with the AF movement because every Canon and Nikon lens has a beyond infinity stop in focusing. That would be all the system requires if it works like the AX.
ya, lol, i was just replying to elpaciko about why Sony just doesn’t make an AF adapter from E-mount to Canon EF 😛
Forget Canon and Nikon lenses – this should work for ALL manual lenses… That is far more interesting!
+1!
Leica lense with AF!!!
Forget CaNikon AND manual focus lenses Sonny needs to improve AF in their native mounts.
Hoping the OSPDAF departure isn’t a premature offering that leaves all camps disappointed.
I wish, they would keep it simple. Sony please, bring a full frame M-mount version and I am as happy as lots of other m-lens-owners will be! Although I appreciate Sony’s efforts, this z-axis AF is too much for me, I am very critical, sorry. If the z-axis AF is one version of the new camera only, and I can get the simple m-mount version, then I am in.
+1
FF NEX will serve your M mount needs.
Imagine Leica M-mount lenses on a Sony camera…with AF and IS 🙂
Obviously doable but it would be difficult to keep the dimensions compact like the AX shows.
A dream but it needs to be rangefinder style! But I am with Hendrik, I will also mount them on FF Nex with MF only and I am also happy…
The body would have to be DSLR style to provide room for enough travel to be useful.
I think Don’s right.
OMG rethink time!!
off to KEH to see what is available!
better hurry 😀
If the AF is fast, this is going to be a major revolution. Fast Canon and Nikon lenses with speedy AF on a Sony body with IBIS? Shit is about to get real.
Don’t forget about an earlier rumor here of Sony may still produce some SLT giving doubt as to weather OSPDAF is mature enough of if we are all guinea pigs for Sony’s latest tech departure.
Will it work with lenses with internal or other complicated focusing system? It obviously will work with most 50mm which moves all their lenses at same time relatively to sensor.
This makes NEX-7 unique and a very elegant camera.
So, this would be for the ne Axxxx series (due bigger body) or the “regular” NEX also?
Would the upcoming fullframe NEX (‘regular’ style) would have that technology as well?
Axxxxx definitely yes. NEX I don’t know.
Any news if the FF Nex will have IBIS?
I don’t see where a nex will have enough room for this. The new A3000 is quite deep for a mirrorless, perhaps this is the reason why.
Isn’t the flange distance the same among all Nex-cameras (E-Mount)? Then the available “space” between Sensor and the rear of the Lens is the same, so I don’t understand why this moving senor couldn’t be built in in the “normal” shaped NEX’s…
Because the camera would need to be thicker in order to allow the sensor to move back. Remember that almost all other mounts have longer flange distance.
but that’s why adapters are for, isn’t it?
^yes, if you’re switching between mounts, you use a canon to e-mount adapter for adding the space. but then you also need some space between the mount and the LCD for everything to move in order to focus the sensor
I don’t understand why would this be the solution for fast AF of newer Canon / Nikon lenses. With promised PDAF on sensor, all that is needed is a proper communication between Sony body and (for example) Canon lens, which is already possible using adapters made by Metabones and some others. OTOH, for manual focus lenses, this is the holy grail.
If NEX-7 successor has IBIS, PDAF on sensor and sensor shift AF, I’ll be the first to order.
because the metabones adapter is a third party product and is not officially supported by sony and canon 😀
plus MF lenses would be cheaper than current AF lenses (mostly) and sony probably has seen that a lot of enthusiasts buy MF lenses with NEX anyway
DSRL Shape ? will this feature will be included to the new A-mount Mirrorless camera of nxt year ?
That I don’t think. But I am not sure about it.
You don’t need the SLR shape anymore these days. That was a major challenge in the 1990s when the AX was born.
Cheap Samyang MF lenses become AF. 🙂
Wow.. thinking about this, I’m keeping my currently defunct Samyang.. hehehehe…
Samyang 85mm F1.4 (Nikon mount) + Speedbooster(or cheap knock off) + Rumored NEX = Magic.
Not many people here would know why the Contax AX came to life and why the N system killed it.
If you google “photo [dot] net Contax AX” you will see a very good article about it.
I thought of buying this camera instead of the RTS III at the time when Contax second hand bodies could be had for cheap. Lenses were not cheap, they were all Carl Zeiss manual focus lenses (that was for the Contax/Yashica mount, known as C/Y mount)
Carl Zeiss, like Leica, was always reluctant in producing AF lenses because it meant some tolerances had to be loosen to produce these lenses on mass. Loosened tolerances meant optical quality sacrifices and that idea was not attractive to Oberkochen so the genius Japanese engineers of Contax came out with the AX. You would need to focus your lens at infinity and let the body do the rest.
The AF was ok albeit not as fast as Canon or Nikon and it had limits with certain lenses. One of the big ones is the thickness of the body… it had to be thick to allow the film plane space to travel.
The camera was a real innovator but when the Contax N system was born, the camera looked outdated albeit it had advantages. For Contax, it has the most lenses compatible with it. Contax N only had 7 or 9 lenses and although all were AF lenses (ultrasonic motor AF lenses mind you) the lineup was not comparable to the C/Y lenses.
Sony seems to have really replaced Contax in innovation and I am happy. The RX line is a pure show of that. The maturity of NEX and the upcoming FF NEX show that in times of crisis you need to show something and Sony decided to go back to its roots of tech-advance and not the American roots of business management.
Hell…if Sony got a hold of those Contax engineers and they are now working for Sony…embrace yourselves because even today no rangefinder has ever been as advanced as the 16 year old Contax G2.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
There is something I’d like to discuss though. The idea of moving the film plane in relation to the lens versus moving the lens in relation to the film plane does not strike me as a huge discovery. Where Contax really innovated was the actual mechanism. Which I am confident is entirely different from what Sony has come up with. So, I am not sure we should be giving much credit to Contax here. I am no engineer and I am assuming a lot here, so I might very well be completely wrong. But it’d be nice to hear your opinion.
The principle is the same. Contax had to move the whole assembly because thats whats needed just to move the film plane. You cannot just move the film plate and expect the two spoilers to give way to the film to move back and forth 20mm. Also the SLR design meant that you have to move the pentaprism, mirror, etc.
Thanks to live view, Sony doesnt need to move anything else but the sensor. All other pieces are fixed and that means a faster AF action although the 18mm is 80% longer than Contax’s original 10mm, motors are more advanced today and if in 1996-1997 you could move a whole assembly, I am confident that Sony can do that with an APS-C or FF sensor for a longer travel distance and a faster AF experience.
The idea is not new, true, but the application concept was Contax’ solution. If Sony has a more mature or different application concept, we don’t know. The post suggests it is similar to the AX so I assume it goes around those lines. The source who apparently tested the camera also points at the same concept as the AX .
Sorry, my bad at the begining…I meant “10mm” not “20mm”…that elusive edit button
Thanks for the writeup and the lens review above.
No worries.
Focussing by moving the film/sensor plane is what you always do on a monorail bellows camera (Sinar etc), and on any good macro bellows. (Some cheaper models do not allow this.)
Likewise tilt should be done at the film plane, rotating around the centre of the plane. Shift should be done at the lens.
Check out the Sinar P.
thanks for sharing! Shouldn’t it be easier to move only a sensor vs. an entire filmplane, shutter, pentaprism… No idea but that could probably make it faster and more precise? Anyway this is what I would call a real innovation if it works!
Excellent comment.
Which is very rare here in SAR.
Now it starts to be interesting!
We all know we are waiting for a portable full-frame interchangeable lens camera like Nex-7. We want an IBIS in it. We also love 30+ mega-pixels sensor which can do 4k and RAW video. We don’t need any more crippled Sony cameras. We are waiting for a revolutionary camera …. Will SONY deliver that? May be Andrea has a little idea already what is coming….
I really don’t have a complete idea. I know it partially. NEX-FF specs are still not certain for me (got rumors from anonymous sources, but not from trusted).
Were halfway there.
This makes it easy for non sony users to switch.
Now sony needs to also give them a reason to switch.
Hopefully the new cameras will also have newer better sensor tech unavailable in the competitors cameras.
Stacked sensor? Highest iso? Highest resolution?
Thinking about this…I don’t believe the the sensor moving on the z axis has any thing to do with pulling focus. IMHO it will be just shimming the focus plane to match the canon nikon lens to sensor specs…
Why would sony go through all that trouble and NOT use the 18mm z axes shift in conjunction with their pdaf sensor for autofocus?
Hopefully lens based and sensor based af can be used together for faster more accurate af and 18mm of additional close focus range.
Sony’s A mount is close enough to EF and F mount that 18mm gives enough leeway to pull focus on those lenses like the AX did.
You don’t need to shim the focal plane, unless you have a very tacky adapter that is the wrong length.
One possible use for a moving sensor is when using an enlarger lens for macro or portraits – it could be used with just extension tubes rather than a bellows.
This could open up new lens possilitied such as telescopes for long lenses.
A new line of lenses with good optics, thermal stabilzed abs housing, simple focusing and low price would be good for a sensor shift auto focus ibis camera system.
Actually that would be precisely my use. I use telescope as long lenses for nearly ten years now.
Having a body that could AF my telescopes would be amazing… I can’t wait to see this camera in the market.
Well done, Sony.
Will it support autofocus on STF lens?
Why not. It’s a CDAF based system. Unless they use OSPDAF instead.
Hmm i don’t know, focusing has a specific location in between the lens elements for a reason, when you move the whole thing back and forth i think the it will be different. Wouldn’t that change the focal length as well ?
Also to adapt Canikon lenses the flange back distance need to be longer, meaning the mount would have to move backwards through the LCD, not forward. Unless of course it’s the other way around for a A-mount camera to support E-Mount lenses for example.
In any case there would still need to be a physical adapter. The Canon’s might be a little awkward (I am assuming this camera will have a native A-mount) because the throat on the canon mount is wider than the Alpha mount. Anyway the physical mount will take care of the issues you mentioned.
The story is about a E-mount camera. Obviously you need the right mount, i don’t know what issues you think you solved.
The issues you mentioned are registration distance and focus. Let me break it down for you more clearly.
1. Registration distance: Either their will be greater registration distance on this rumored camera than the standard E-mount (which is my guess) or you will continue to need adapters of varying depth to get to the right “base” registration distance just like you currently do when adapting other lenses to an E-mount camera. Either way this will not be a problem.
2. Focus: a lens focuses by moving the lens elements along the z-axis (if you have a manual focus lens handy this becomes readily apparent). So as long as the registration distance starts out correct and the lens is set to infinity (like was necessary on the Contax AX) the camera can focus. Now it is unknown if 18mm will be enough to focus all lenses or if internal focus lenses will work as well but every lens should with this system.
What we Will really expect?
Is 18mm enough to cover the AF movement of a wide range of lenses?
What aboiu lenses where AF mechanism only concern a small group of lenses in the Lens instead of the whole Lens movement.
The positive if it works well: no matter how the Lens AF mechanism works (manual, screw drive, piezzo, stepper….) the AF speed Will be always the same when using this approach.
My concern as well. Really excited to find the answer.
Somehow I doubt it actually works. You have to set the position of in-lens focus to some point before moving the sensor, and how do you do that without electronics? “Set it mechanically to infinity first”? Some lenses do not have mechanical focus connection anymore.
i too have my doubt about how/if it’d actually work, or if its just a 2 position mechanism to allow the use of a-mount and e-mount on the same body.
in terms of those non mechanically coupled lenses, its mostly modern lenses that have that (m43, e-mount etc), but if its for MF lenses with manual aperture it shouldn’t be a problem then
If market is not growing (the last news say sales of mirrorless stop) only path you left is to stole market from competitors, so… sony may follow their only viable option.
But i doubt this bring new camera sales, everybody who born in this century or had discovered photography lately, wich is the NEW AND FUTURE MARKET, dont care about canikon lenses compatibility, even less about old century “perfect” manual lenses, they had neither.
I had been in dsrl photography only since the a33 came out, so… only own sony lenses, so… to me (as with many old and all new photographers) the only real gain is able to use all that cheap samayang lenses with AF, MF was the reason i skip buying them a couple of years ago… and the other gain may be the “promise” of better cheaper lenses from sony because new lenses will not had AF built in, but since all sony lenses that “should” be cheaper cause IS is built in body, in reality are not that “cheaper” compared to canikons, i doubt newer “simpler” lenses will be subtantional cheaper than today lenses.
You represent a part of a massive market.
Cheap is not the future because cheap means compromise.
So, cheap unreliable Samyang lenses are not a choice for a professional who relies on photography to make a living.
Cheap doesnt allow Carl Zeiss or Leica to innovate lenses.
Cheap doesnt allow bodies like the D800 to reach the market in the first place.
The key words in your comment are: “to me…” but “you” do not represent the future.
> You represent a part of a massive market.
There are different market segments – so it’s likely that somebody is part of one.
> Cheap is not the future because cheap means compromise.
“Cheap” is also a market segment.
> So, cheap unreliable Samyang lenses are not a choice for a professional who relies on photography to make a living.
So only hobbyists buy Samyang? I don’t believe so…
> Cheap doesnt allow Carl Zeiss or Leica to innovate lenses.
Who needs them to?
> Cheap doesnt allow bodies like the D800 to reach the market in the first place.
The D800 is dirt cheap compared to medium format bodies – “cheap” is relative.
Way to miss all the points.
“There are different market segments – so it’s likely that somebody is part of one.”
The problem wasn’t who is part of what, but that the OP defined the future market in his own image.
““Cheap” is also a market segment.”
And it is still a compromise.
“Who needs them to?”
I do. And I am sure I am not the only one.
“The D800 is dirt cheap compared to medium format bodies – “cheap” is relative.”
It’s relative until it’s defined and that is what the OP did. Cheap as Samyang.
Somanyideas proposes that the future is “cheap”.
It’s not.
By ‘part of a market’ I meant part of the overall market of photography. People that dont spend much money on photography gear. I used to be part of that market but I never asked for any brand to give me $$$$ performance for $$ or told anyone that $ is the future of the industry.
This is really what I have beeen hoping for. This needs to be FF and have IBIS and then I would get it tomorrow.
There is so much great Zeiss and Leica M glass hanging around. It really is so much better than most.
So if sony is listening, PLEASE make FF give IBIS and make sure it works well with wide angle glass
I still don’t understand the AX-AF: Will the new AX-lenses be without internal focusing adjustments? If yes, I understand that the AX will find focus by moving the sensor. But for MF-lenses with focusing mechanism, we get a manual focus mechanism in the lens plus an AX-AF, maybe as a fine-tuning to make up for the not so precise manual focusing ? At what settings (infinity?) do I have to set my MF lenses to let the AX-AF work best and how will my Zeiss ZE lenses set aperture (Canon aperture control not provided with AX-System). And will Sony also provide the according adapters for every lens brand? All this has to go together to make up a whole system. Thanks for your explanations!
You will need Metabones Canon adapter that will allow aperture control for the Canon lenses from the camera itself. Nikon lenses only needs aperture ring on the adapter to change aperture.
That means that my future Sony FF camera will look like a patchwork device, where every interface needs to be precise enough to provide good IQ. I am very critical….
It still needs both, MF for the rough adjustment and AX-AF for fine-tuning. There will be problems with floating element lenses…
http://photo.net/equipment/contax/ax
There are no AX lenses.
The Contax AX was an AF camera able to AF with manual focus lenses.
The concept refers to Sony using Canon and Nikon lenses whilst retaining AF at least while also retaining any Sony mount (A or E)
WOOOOW this is AMAZING! I cannot wait to buy this camera, but now is the time to fill up the manual lens collections!
Already have 4, hahaha…
I just don’t buy it….Why have autofocus in the lens and the sensor?? It is just more parts to get out of calibration…Your engineering tolerances will need to be at a whole other level. For what gain?? Nah I think they are getting a movable sensor but not for autofocus…Believe it when I see it…..
With contrast based AF there is little to calibrate.
The same applies to on sensor PDAF, should work perfectly without calibration.
it is mamiya innovation. it was the very old mamiya 6 in fifty not the newer one in ninety
What innovation are you talking about? the Mamiya 6 was a 6×6 medium format rangefinder. Not an AF camera.
the oldest mamiya 6 move the film plane and the whole fiadvancement module to focus. although not af.
http://silverbased.org/mamiya6-folder/
http://chemicalcameras.wordpress.com/mamiya-six/
I see. True, but not AF.
Interesting method.
Just goes to show that Sony has little faith in its E and especially A mounts. Where is the FF E-mount camera with XLRs? A mount video camera seems like it would never come 🙁
You have seen the VG900 right? Also I don’t see how this is particularly relevant to this particular camera?
Yes, there is the VG900 but it needs an adapter to support XLRS which is not really that convenient (having used adapters on Sony video cameras before) and another adapter for A-mount lenses.
The connection to this camera – switching lenses from a popular brand is not that difficult as Nikon and Canon second-hand lenses sell really well. So instead of putting all this money into this technology which might or might not work well with various lenses, perhaps it is time to invest in producing better native lenses and better cameras.
I’m sure that there’s a market for a native A-mount shoulder mount video camera, or maybe there should be. Sony is more popular in video that it is in still, but I think that it’s time to leverage this
Why put XLR on a full frame Handycam since it’s not a pro camera like the FS700 and XLR option is better to keep cost down. The market for E mount a video camera is much larger than A mount since there are many E mount Sony cameras but no A mount video cameras. A mount lenses work on E mount along with Canon lenses, Nikon lenses, Pentax lenses etc with low cost adapter.
NEX-VG10
NEX-VG20
NEX-VG30
NEX-VG900
NEX-FS100
NEX-FS700
NEX-EA50UH
I sometimes shoot events such as weddings. Sharing lenses is always nice between the stills photographer and the videographer. I use the A99 so I cannot share lenses with either Canon/Nikon photographers or videographers using Sony cameras.
This will not solve my problems
B&H has the full frame NEX-VG900 with full frame E mount lenses and XLR.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1000623-REG/sony_nex_vg900_handycam_camcorder_mic_lens_kit.html
Interesting difference in momentum if all of this comes true.
Massive push for mirrorless whilst Nikon ‘rethinks’.
So we will do coarse AF manually and the camera will fix the rest.
And we can start looking for good lenses, no matter what brand. Heck, in a thousand years maybe I can use my Vectis lenses….
Crap I just thought this would be fantastic for focus stacking taking 6 to 12? shots rapidly at different focus points and stacking together in camera for large DOF macros.
Like in camera HDR is to exposure.
Always wanted this feature
🙂
The fact that this camera can take nikon and canon etc lenses is the selling point. Many will only use this feature rarely but at the point of purchase it will be enough for some customers to decide to try a Sony camera. Apple computers run windows and this has helped people feel comfortable buying an apple pc because they can always run windows on it if needed.
To be honest, I would rather expect this to be in a typical DSLR body like the one of the A77 or A99. There is sufficient space to move the sensor. It would also allow better handling of the big lenses. If Sony would make an A77 version of this, I buy it immediately and will buy som high quality Nikon F glass and Canon L glass. Sounds very exciting.
It is IBIS in 3 axis.
If it works perfect in 2 axis, as proved, why upgrading it to 3 should be any problem?
It will be called IBIS-6 axis
Later will arrive focus perspective IBIS-10
Geometrically, there are only six degrees of freedom.
That is, X, Y and Z shift; and rotation (tilt) around the X, Y and Z axes.
The Olympus 5-axis IBIS presumably has all except the Z shift. It is not really 5 “axes”, it is five degrees of freedom.
Why Nikon, Canon, Pentax, etc users will be waiting for new bodies if somebody offers a body capable of
1.- using their current glass
2.- using the glass in the closet waiting for FF again
3.- All with state of the art auto focus
4.- with better IQ
5.- At the same money of nex “MakerX” FF body
6.- With an upgrade path their current makerX does not provide
Why?
This is the end of glass slavery and the end of canon-nikon wars as all glass is avalaible to this superbody?
This is what happens when Canikon insist in selling one body after another. That game is over.
You are being too quick.
1. yes, but how well?
2. yes
3. for the “state of the art” AF, we should wait and see
4. very arguable
5. didn’t get that
6. what upgrade path?
1.- Better than now. It is the next body for that glass, so it is better.
2.- yes
3.- Contax AX had almost same AF than dlsr of the time. The system can be programmed to obtain the same level of AF than the one of the lens, so expect at least the same AF as if it were lens-based.
4.- Yes, arguable, but Sony manufactures finest sensors.
5.- You just wait. It will be a cheaper body. It has sense that way. Of course no same level of complexity that flag bodies of Canikon.
6.- Upgrade path : “We will continue to sell you better and better bodies for your glass, any glass you like or have” (forget that propietary lenses+bodies and come to open source territory, you can run any lens in our body)
You will bet that it will the move
I see. Well, I am all for it, but prefer to stay somewhat skeptical, it is not the first time we’ve been promised the stars 🙂 Anyway, we’ll know soon, so be there for the discussion!
Very interesting. Although I’m not to sure I completely get it from the above information. It seems to be implying that the sensor shift along the Z axis, would replace the lens AF of CaNikon lenses. However, Canon lenses would also need an electronic connection of control the aperture.
As a macro photographer I have long been aware of the potential of this type of Z axis sensor shift. It has massive potential in a number of aspects, especially if combined with something like Oympus’ 5-axis stabilization, which it looks as though Sony now has access to. For a start, one of the limitations of IS for macro photography is that backwards and forwards movement along the Z-axis is important in the close-up region, and currently no lens or IBIS system can compensate for it. Also it make focus bracketing and automated focus stacking for extended DOF possible. This is before the obvious one of giving all lenses useful extra close-up ability.
For me personally though, the real exciting thing about this potential is for increasing the close-up abilitiy of wide-angle lenses for wide-angle macro photography. Currently it is technically difficult to get wide-angle lenses to focus closer. Extension tubes tend to be too long, and even if usuable the steps are too coarse. Close-up lenses are difficult because they have to be very powerful and usually cause vignetting.
If Sony get this right, it would be the camera to go to for macro photographers. I expect it may take a couple of iterations to perfect, but it has huge potential.
They will probably make DSLR bodies, which can accept both A and E-mount lenses and thanks to the technology provide AF to other lenses. The compatibility with Canon and Nikon will probably fall to third parties, same as it is now.
Have you tried using a helicoid adapter for wide angle close-ups ?
They seem to be available only on Leica Thread, Leica M and Canon EOS, but one can adapt from these to other mounts.
One camera with this feature will have no lasting impact whatsoever. All cameras having this feature would provide confidence for canikon system owners to migrate to Sony.
Can you imagine how miserable it will be if the other features you want (FF, IBIS, MPix, body style) are trade-offs vs. Autofocus on non-sony lenses?
Sony also takes a big risk that canikon owners will experience a loss of speed, accuracy, or IQ. It would be a lot safer to market as a niche camera for MF lens owners than as a migration path for top tier systems owners.
Kudos to Sony for innovation either way, but if there is only one token camera for non-sony lenses it may sell very well as a niche product, but I doubt it will result in many future sales of Sony cameras or lenses….
“One camera with this feature will have no lasting impact whatsoever.”
I beg to differ. It will be a boon to manual lens users and will reinforce Sony’s image. At the least.
“All cameras having this feature would provide confidence for canikon system owners to migrate to Sony.”
And Sony will be selling only bodies? I doubt that is what Sony wants.
“Can you imagine how miserable it will be if the other features you want (FF, IBIS, MPix, body style) are trade-offs vs. Autofocus on non-sony lenses?”
That is a big “if”, that I don’t even understand.
“It would be a lot safer to market as a niche camera for MF lens owners than as a migration path for top tier systems owners.”
Well, given that they are starting with one camer, maybe that is exactly what they are doing?
“Kudos to Sony for innovation either way, but if there is only one token camera for non-sony lenses it may sell very well as a niche product, but I doubt it will result in many future sales of Sony cameras or lenses…”
That’s the thing though, it will be the only such camera on the market and will serve as an advertisement for Sony’s features. Well, if they do it right.
Andrea, this is awesome! But you sure the shift range is 18mm? Since the total flange rang of E mount is only 18mm….
ANDREA, Are you sure someone isnt taking you for a ride?!? This makes NO sense at all, from a business standpoint.
How many of your sources are saying this? If its just one, I’d say its 100% fake. If its 3 or more, its possible but still unlikely.
This doesnt sound right…
2 sources and 1 anonymous source. And I have a picture of the camera on my laptop (will post this soon).
IMHO this makes a lot of sense.
Many mirrorless cameras (probably one of the biggest slices) sell because of their ability to use them with any lens out there, new or past.
Sony knows this too, so why not take advantage of this and go one step further by adding AF (or semi AF)?
There you go. Thats the spirit.
This is a question for those of you who know the technical stuff and geometries of lens focal lengths, etc., to enable me to understand the possibilities going forward.
I have a NEX 7 with Zeiss 24, Touit 32, Kit 18-55 and 18-200. I never use the 18-55 and the 18-200 only when I need the tele length. I am seriously interested in the Zeiss Vario Tessar 16-70, ideal for me, and I am seriously interested in NEX FF but am not made of $$$ and would prefer to be able to use the stuff I already have…, and the 16-70 if I choose to buy it.
My question is: If the FF sensor is moving in the X-axis, does that mean it will be possible for one of the APS-C lenses to focus on–and fill–the full size of the sensor (i.e. without cropping to take full advantage of the sensor) when the increased distance of the sensor from the focus point of the lens permits? I hope this is written clearly. Thanks in advance; looking forward to helpful info.
A second question: Does the term “form factor” just mean “shape?”
Yes, but only for macro. The closer you focus, the bigger the image circle.
It is possible that a tele-extender (of the type that goes between lens and camera) might give you a bigger image at normal distances, but I don’t know if this would work in practice. For example, a 1.5x tele extender could turn the 24mm into a 36mm that covered full frame. This is basically the Speed Booster in reverse. The image would be dimmer.
“Form factor” generally means the overall design and dimensions of a product.
Yes, “form factor” just means “shape”. But you should say “form factor”, as it makes you seem more intelligent and technically knowledgeable.
Thanks for both posts. Very helpful.
I’m afraid if I use “form factor” to seem more intelligent, my head will explode in a mixture of embarrassment and excessive brilliance. In architecture we just say shape or form; anyone saying “form factor” would be ostracized.
Cheers.
A
Well, you can say DSLR-shaped or rangefinder-styled, but form factor seems like a better solution and it generally does involve more than the shape. So, I guess I slightly disagree here with Don 🙂
if you are interested in the NEX FF then maybe wait for the rumored FF zoom first and then decide, the 16-70 does actually seem really good but personally if i were to go with the NEX FF i wouldn’t spend the money for the 16-70 but rather keep the 18-55 (i also have the 18-200 but im selling that)
also with projecting the APS-C lens, if you move the sensor back you can project larger, but the lens will not be able to focus when it fills the frame, also the back of the sony lenses have rectangular cutouts at the back
We are waiting 🙂
The snsor focus system does not make much sense to me; I think it is better to make it compatible via adapter, as you will need one anyway to mount the lenses
Adapters can only allow autofocus for autofocus lenses. This system can allow AF for manual focus lenses too.
And for lenses with no focus such as the Leica ones for use with the Visoflex.
Excellent point. Although the results will still be “special”, at the least, this would certainly make it a lot easier to shoot with old Contax lenses, or enlarger lenses.
Make it easier for Canon and Nikon users to switch. ROFLMAO sorry but ain’t gonna happen
All other technologies aside, how can one mount different manufacture lenses to the same camera body? If we need different adapters for different lenses to be mounted to this new Sony camera, adapters themselves will cost too much money.
Most of the off-brand adapters to E-mount run about $15 – $25. Complicated ones like those for Contax G are more like $40 – $70 off-brand, due to the added parts.
Very cheap compared to the prices of the lenses.
Please correct me if I am wrong. Off brand adapters has cheap/Low-quality glasses inside the adapter, you will loose a few stops of light by adding such adapters; unless you’re talking about adapters that do not pass electrical signals, but if that’s the case, autofocus and auto exposures are not going to work properly with the added hollow tube/adapter. None of the SR posts mentioned anything about how we can mount our different lense to this “concept” Sony camera.
Most of the adapters are purely mechanical. They enable you to mount the lens at the right distance from the sensor. Thats all. No Glass, no electronics.
yes, you can buy the super cheap ones with no glass in them, you don’t really loose any light compared to a native mount because the back of the lens is designed to be a certain distance away from the sensor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance
for example, Canon EF is 44mm from mount to sensor, Sony NEX is 18mm, so a 26mm tube would be used inbetween to hold the lens at the proper distance, the light still travels 44mm from the lens to the sensor
if this rumored camera is going to be made, then you can theoretically move the sensor back and forth to correctly focus without moving the lens, therefore no control of the lens is required
If Sony is seriously considering making a camera like this, then Sony needs to manufacture their own high end adapters for all different cameras which I don’t see that they will. Plus, If adapters are needed, camera bodies with lenses will be huge, no other brand users will switch for this simple reason.
there already exists a ton of adapters from china and other higher end manufacturers who already have ____ to E-mount adapters available, even very niche mounts like hassleblad xpan lenses, just have a look on Ebay 😀
So, have anybody seen any patents that indicate this?
I don’t see Canon and Nikon users who have invested deep into systems switch over to Sony unless this new body has something real special that Canon and Nikon can’t offer and at a reasonable pricepoint because it’s not like Canon and Nikon bodies are garbage. Sure some Canikon users with older bodies looking to upgrade will buy this camera if they find the specs better than what their current system offers and is worth also paying extra for an adapter.
However, where I see the potential is o someone who hasn’t yet invested deep into a system and doesn’t have a huge collections of lenses. Someone who is undecided what they want. For those types, having the option to pick a system that you can mount just about any type of lens(and a lot cheaper than the E lenses) is a HUGE selling point. Some one like that would probably pick Sony over Canon and Nikon when trying to decide.
I love my NEX 6 for it’s size and features, but when I compare the price of E lenses vs. legacy or DSLR lenses, I keep thinking maybe I made the wrong decision. Please Sony put this feature in a NEX body too.
Compare it to other mirrorless offerings and you’ll feel better.
Ha! +1
That’s why I chose the NEX. Not too expensive compared to other mirrorless but still expensive to comparable DSLR lenses. In the end I chose it for size over a DSLR and willing to pay the price penalty.
I would have never thought that smaller size would incur in a price penalty.
$h1T!!!
If this works as it should, I see quite a few reasons for dual-system user to switch. Nikon and Canon have their own best in class optics. So for people want the best of the best, they don’t have to fiddle with an inconsistent adapter (F to EF adapter) or different RAW processing (dual camera system). Admittedly, this is a very niche market.
+1, the oly/pana m43 lenses always feels so expensive when i wonder around in the local camera stores
I have to ask:
What is a reasonable price point?
What you are willing to pay. For some it’s $400, for others $7000 for body only.
I am asking you!
What do you think is your reasonable price point?
I would easily drop $3k on this if implemented in the same way the NEX 7 was or the RX1 is.
Would you?
i’d drop $3k on this easily if it was a full frame and has a reasonable form factor, i’ve got a bunch of MF lenses which i want to use it with this.
on the other hand if it has a DSLR form factor i’d consider it, it would depend on the other features etc. I’ve switched the sony because i enjoy photography but i don’t like the bulk
aps-c wise, maybe 1k or 1.2k? it’d be a lot more accessible to the buyers because of cost but it would seem like a really niche product aimed at enthusiasts who actually understands the benefits of this technology
plus some vintage lenses are dirt cheap, having this sort of rumored body would allow people to buy more lenses
*buy more lenses and provide AF with them i mean
Some ideas for the camera of the future:
1. EVF with eye tracking AF point selection
This tech is already available, just not in cameras. Your eye focuses on some point, and the camera will focus on that point using on-sensor PDAF pixels.
2. No super-fast lenses needed
On-sensor PDAF can determine all in-focus and out-of-focus areas in the image. For subject isolation, the camera automatically applies Gaussian blur to the out-of-focus areas, thus increasing the effect of subject isolation and reducing the need for super-fast lenses.
1) eye tracking AF has existed in cameras 😀 i purchased an old Canon EOS 30 which has this tech and its really cool! i wish it would be re-applied on modern day cameras, especially when shooting fast lenses with shallow DoF
2) ooo, that does sound quite interesting, i’d love to have the ability to do that on my already fast lenses, super fast lenses would still be needed for low light use though (for people who don’t want noisy images)
I wonder if this could be used in a-mount bodies to adjust the flange difference so Nikon, Canon, Sony E-mount, PL, et al. lenses could be adapted to a bodies.
Wow! This might be a game changer. This will make me able to autofocus with my vintage Nikon lenses, and it will probably make my lenses focus closer! I will pay for this!
you would end up with a thick nex body, as the sensor would move towards the back.
I actually have a old ensign folder that moves the film plane, its ww2 era, and the rb67 has fixed lenses on bellows.
couple of interesting points, a emount lens could gain a bunch of macro / close focus ability without tubes, just shift sensor backwards
adapted lenses for the electronic systems could just need to control iris, and tamron know how to do that, and sony owns some of tamron?
the insides of the camera would be insane, and amazing 🙂
Why would our CaNikon friends give up their excellent flash systems for a Sony without system and bad troubles?
If there are no “bad troubles”, Sony is fine…
Sony flash has some serious bad troubles.
SR1, not 5 – a typo in the title I guess.
will we have focus stacking??
It is a pity that canon or nikon were afraid of that move.
They were selling propietary systems all the time.
They are like IBM.
Now somebody says “people wants to use any glass they like in their body and continue to do so for years” “They are bored of buying all that things at the pace they marked, they like protection for their lens investment”
Hm, that’s an interesting analogy.
I am not sure how IBM analogy ties up here.
Thinkpads were windows based and no other manufacturer allowed end-user to replace parts like the HDD, RAM and CD-Drive without voiding the warranty. Maybe I am too much ahead my idea of IBM. Particularly since they are one of the most valuable companies today on the face that their servers and their research are highly regarded. They were the ones that invented the touch screen.
No wait, they made the original tablet! thats it…the ThinkPAD!
Sorry, maybe touch screen was someone else invention.
Yep, maybe Nokia and Blackberry would be a better analogy, like someone posted above.
Leaving aside other peoples lenses, I think this has 2 other important functions. 1) it allows an A mount and and E mount to be a close to the same surface by moving the sensor forward for the E-mount or back for the A-mount. 2) It automatically handles Back Focus for cine lenses.
Does anyone actually know if this really works for autofocus without aberration, vignette or refraction problems with modern lens designs?
There are bound to be some lenses that don’t work well with it, but the great majority will be OK.
It could be expensive.
Wow, the speculations were spot on. And I admit I was wrong. Will be interesting to see this reviewed. I do hope they put it in a 7-series or 9-series body.
If this is just a DSLR shaped body with sensor shift autofocus, then I can’t believe that any Canon or Nikon users are going to be that interested. Why is that any better than their actual DSLRs which will probably autofocus faster and more accurately, as well as provide native support through things like auto colour and lens corrections. Plus you then get all the benefits of a DSLR such as an OVF and battery life.
I’m actually quite disappointed with Sony to be honest. This is a camera which was probably quite a lot of effort to put together, and I’d have rather seen that effort focussed on filling out their (let’s face it) rather incomplete lens selection.
But I’ll wait to see the actual specs before judging too much…
Just a small point here, an OVF is not a benefit for everyone.
True point. I think that it’s probably fair to say that most people prefer an OVF, especially if we’re talking full frame.
Errrrr no, I don’t! 😉
Can I ask why?
it depends on personal preferences, but a lot of people i know do not have experiences with EVF, personally i prefer EVF for my landscaping because you can see how much dynamic range you are getting with your settings, also it doesn’t hurt your eyes when you look into the sun for sunset shots.
A lot of people i know in the photography club im in get disappointed by the pictures they take because its not as vibrant or have the same tonal range as what they can see with their eyes
OVF and normal Leica type focusing system are easy to combine and that would make true viewfinder camera:) There are OVFs which u can use jointly with the traditional ones already – I think Olympus has one already (?)
With my camera, in this case A7R up to my eye and thus shooting level with my usual vision, its extremely convenient that with EVF i can see the actual depth of field as it will be recorded and adjust with response rather than rely on DOF button and the simulated impression of depth through OVF or indeed having to use the screen with camera held away from me at all.
no, it’s not a huge gamechanger. It does make sony bodies a viable alternative to those running Canon or Nikon lenses. But this feature in itself is not going to make anyone switch, sony still need to come up with a camera that is better than the canikon equivalent. And they need to keep doing that to avoid people switching back. Because if you have a few good lenses for the EF mount, what’s going to make you buy a Sony body instead of a Canon body? Or if you have nikon stuff, what’s going to make you buy sony instead of nikon?
But if Sony released a camera that was better than what canikon offers, at least the switch is made easier (unfortunately it’s also easier to switch back).
As I said, I’m looking forward to seeing the camera they put this in.
Schnout! I’ve spent a year telling all my friends that having mechanical parts (miror) in a camera is stupid, hence my love for mirorless. Now you’re telling me that half the guts inside the camera will be moving? I feel bad…
Someone told me they saw an alien once, just telling someone doesn’t make it so.
I honestly do think that the OVF is here to stay and that Sony have made a huge mistake not having some OVF models
Sony is much better off using high quality OLED EVFs like the one in my full frame NEX-VG900 with no mirror. Get a Canon, Nikon or Pentax DSLR if you want a DSLR with mirror box and OVF like the 35mm SLRs of the last century.
It moves only during focusing phase. Any camera with AF has to move something(I’m guessing it’s the focusing element??) to get the focus right. Then it stops. Click click. Not any more different than ordinary NEX.
So if the sensor moves, doesn’t that means that in theory they could do a light field mode relatively quickly? So being able to do focusing a posteriori like the Lytro camera?
** quickly rushing to the patern office **
I dont understand why most say that there is no room in a NEX body for sensor movement.
And why most presume that the lens would needed to be set to infinity.
Flange distance is only a starting point as it is lenses move their elements closer and further constantly while focusing.
Maybe the body will be 1-1.5 cm thicker but thats not always a ba thing for handling.
Maybe the lens will be needed to be set at closest focusing distance.
Maybe the sensor will move only to the front of the mount.
Maybe sony will sell a special e mount adapter for each competitive mount.
There might be more than one solution to the problem we are still not familiar enough with…
Exciting times!
For video to! this will be the ultimate handycam
And for Olympus i presume… They might be working on this together. Or at least share.
Time will tell.
Even if there is no room for this in current NEX bodies, they can always make a thicker body and move the sensor backwards from the current distance.
This is very exciting, I’m very interested to see how this will turn out. Lot’s of potential with this, Macro, MF->AF, lens flexibility.
Beyond the Z-axis control, I’d be very interested to see if they would ever add additional degrees of freedom to the sensor. If so, it would allow the same flexibility as a view camera such that Sony could start offering solutions that might attract some of the larger format audience.
I think Olympus and Sony will present the same type of new SLR FF cameras in this few days: http://www.getolympus.com/ca/en/revolutionary
They put a sensor with lots of lens behind in the europe teeser. Sims to me the same sensor AX idea and…http://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-olympus-camera-with-hybrid-mft-ft-mount/
have you been following 43rumors lately? from what i remember it was the teaser for the new Oly camera, the E-M1,it is a m43 camera which has on sensor phase detection so you can use it with all the 4/3 lenses, the sensor itself does not move for autofocus and you still need an adapter to mount the 4/3 lenses onto it
thanks Pb
This is a very exciting news indeed!
My dream camera finally comes true.
5-axis IBIS, Z-axis AF, compatible with nearly all 35mm lens in the market incl. ARRI.
How about adding these:
1) AF selection using Eye Control Focus with focus peaking/Focus Boxes displays
2) ISO 50-12800, Extended (using Pixel-binning) L1 ISO25, H1 25600, H2 51200, H3 100K
3) On sensor intelligent gradient filter (ND8-32 for Highlights)
4) 16-bit RAW & DNG support (during exports or after in-camera post-processing)
5) Mutliple exposure with the previous images shown on EVF for precise composition
6) Min. 10 seconds of continuous shooing at max FPS (12?) and max resolution(32MP?)
7) Improved EVF (120Hz+?) refresh rate and EVF delay + shutter delay (35ms wide-open 55ms stopped down 4-fstop) with PIP to confirm focus and dynamic histogram
8) High Speed Flash sync – Global shutter at 1/320s and above?
9) Radio Trigger and remote power control for studio flash like Profoto, Pocket Wizard
10) Ultra HD4K output (cropped mode) and 10-bit HD RAW video with Pixel-binning
But then, how much are you willing to pay for it?
I’d pay the same price as D4 & 1Dx, would YOU?
🙂 Yees -That would be my dream camera too:) I would gladly consider that than any Nikon or Canon on the market. And would offer myself for their test shooter and consult:) lol
This feature only works for some lens and it’s just going to create confusion.
Some modern lenses have floating elements. For example Leica 75mm APO Summicron, 35mm Summilux FLE. Floating elements allows one or more groups of elements to move relative to each other, when focusing distance changes. This feature gives higher performance for close distance.
Simply moving the sensor doesn’t work well with these high performance lenses.
I was using Leica lenses as example. Both Nikon and Canon have lenses with floating elements. Simply moving sensor back and forth works, but it takes away the great performance for closing distance from these lenses.
Maybe not 100%, but I get decent result out of lens + extension tube combination(it basically uses the same concept).
You can always pre-focus on the manual IF lenses and let the z-axis AF do the last bit. Just like Contax AX!
Erm….
Whatever that they are planing to do, perhaps they should include allowing user to switch off the AF mechanism and manually set the registry distance in increment of 0.1mm and there you have it… LoL!
Finally:
1. AF for adapted Canikon lens.
2. AF for ZEISS manual lens.
3. AF for legacy lens.
4. AF for modern but manual only e.g. Samyang lens.
5. AF for T&S lens.
6. AF for telescope.
wow wow wow wow… Sony, don’t make it too expensive… please please please!!!
Is this rumor also fake? Or is it only the picture of A7000 that was fake??
Image was fake! More ILC definitely coming.
why Sony should make an AF as that?
Canon and Nikon lens alreday are AF and IS … why to move the sensor instead to use the lens motor AF ???? also because you need an electronic adapter to drive the aperture…
sony have 2 line of lensens A and E mount and alredy we have adapter for this… I do not think that Sony is interested in selling camera bodies for manual lenses
if it is true that sensor is capable to move in Z axes I don’t think for AF reason…
“why Sony should make an AF as that?”
Only 1 precise step motor inside the camera body, instead of high torque screw-driver type motor!
Only a few a-mount lenses got SSM, others are just too noisy esp when shooting video.
Production costs for future E-mount FF lenses will be lowered as there are fewer moving parts.
i wonder how much bigger this will make the body.
Just for the record, the original idea for the moving film plane came from Mamiya, in the form of the original Mamiya 6. Kyocera used the idea successfully to convert manual focus lenses to an AF system on the Contax AX.
Why? Why? Why? Why buy this Sony camera if Nikon and Canon already make excellent cameras for their own lenses?
Well, fits their policy and as they are no true lens manufacturers this would make nice addition to the A7-R a6000 family (the cheap big sensors is still the main attraction in these cameras- not the lenses Sony has to offer-nothing wrong with them I suppose but not really worth the money if you got the real glass already) where the interest lies in the possibility to use quality lenses like Contax uses – so that is one reason…And they love dropping features to different models -so there is one more…And of course because the AF system is actually simple and best there is from the mere point of view that the moving components should be in the body if you want to use some Leica – Zeiss level optics… or any other lens for that matter. AF technology should have been directed to this kind of solution if the companies would not have been so greedy to mass produce plastic AF lenses for every camera model….Just my point of view;)