And now it’s here! Someone called it the Full Frame OMD, or the Full Frame for the masses. I am talking about the Sony A7 (or A7r) that it’s now available at Amazon (Click here), Adorama (Click here) and BHphoto (Click here). You judge from the image on top if the OMD and A7 are really close. The one thing that is cool on the A7-A7r is that you can fit MFT lenses in crop mode by using that [shoplink 42338 ebay]Fotodiox MFT to NEX adapter (Click here)[/shoplink]!
Here are some OMD vs A7 info:
– The A7-A7r advantages are: Higher MP count, larger FF sensor, Better High ISO, A7 body for $1700 only.
– The OMD advantages are: way faster AF, smaller lenses, 5 axis stabilization that works on all lenses, much better weather sealing and almost half the price.
So why is the Sony announcement that important?
1) FF never was as cheap as now and challenges the high end APS-C MFT models
2) Sony-Olympus partnership lead to have a close A7-OMD design, and same EVF. And 5 axis IBIS will be used in some future Sony models too
3) I am curious to see if Olympus will go FF too (would be easy now that they have access to Sony sensors).
4) Eventually Olympus could make some lenses for the E-mount FF.
5) Our [shoplink 27042 ebay]OM-lenses[/shoplink] now can work on a FF digital camera.
A full test roundup and worldwide preorder list can be found on SonyAlphaRumors.com (Click here).
179 Responses
“FF never was cheap as now?”
canons 6D and nikons D600 both are less expensive. just saying…
Both the 6d and d600 and d610 are more expensive. If you are talking about street price, then you have to look at Sony’s street price as well, which is 10% less using Sony EPP.
You can even find the 6D for close to $1500.00 on ebay and other places.
Fanboys sure like to spin Numbers….
Cool off buddy! The A7 is presently selling for $1,698 usd which is less than your Canon full frame.
Canon 6D $1,500, A7 $1,700. Clear what is cheaper (but not by much). Add Canon 24-105L f/4, it is $2,000-$2,200, add Sony 24-70 f/4, it is $3,000, and still does not have the range.
But the real crazy person in the store is E-M1 trying to ask similar prices.
You are an idiot. The comparison is between new cameras, not a used that may be broken and a new one. Critical thinking is something you can’t do.
I dont see it on Amazon. Where is it? ?
B&H Photo list the Sony A7 $1698 the Sony A7R price is 2298. Relax and do your home work.
Admin, much better weather sealing? How do we know that? Way faster AF? Also how do we know that?
I dunno. It’s hard not to consider Sony considering the prices of the Em1 with kit lens. For the 4/3rds, m/43rds lens owner it’s a no brainer to move (if they are) to the Em1, but to increase market, I wonder.
TheCameraStoreTV tested the camera and said it’s not really weather sealed….at least not for rain.
I dopnt recall them saying that, he seemed to just complain about the SD card door
yes, and after that he says he doens’t expect a good level of weather sealing. At leats not against rain. Watch the video again.
He showed that there was no gasket seal on the door, which means it is weatherproof but probably not as well as traditional weather sealing.
If there’s no gasket on the door, you can best believe thay the buttons aren’t seald as well.
The A7 is NOT WATERPROOF. Get over it, it’s okay. There are a lot of good cameras without seals, so no big deal. Stop trying to lie and put positve spins on the A7. It is what it is…
Thank you for reading and replying admin. Appreciated. I checked Sonys own press release and it sure reads ambiguous enough that this could be the case
That said digital rev cameras were not production cameras afaik so maybe Sony could change that but the press release suggests its probably as you said
@ Admin:
The card door is indeed sealed. There’s a official preview floating on YouTube by Sony Australia where they even empasize just that, and the gaskets are shown close up in the video.
I think Admin is correct on all of his points….but we will need additional reviews to confirm…the same thing happened with the Fuji etc….oh..its this…oh its that …and then the AF was not at all what everyone was touting…it was quite poor.
I believe that he AF is NOTHING close to the M1, EP-5, E-M5, GX-7 etc….. A lot slower… The A7r (contrast only AF) is considerably slower than the A7 (contrast and phase)…So I kindof know intuitively that the A7r has waaaaaaaaaaaaaay slower focus than our beloved MFT cameras…but I would love to have someone post a comparison so that we can see how fast the A7 camera is to say the M1.
I love this line that admin. posted above…
“3) I am curious to see if Olympus will go FF too (would be easy now that they have access to Sony sensors).”
Some engineer at Olympus is going to read that and say….”EASY FOR WHO????” ….LOL!!!!!!!
The Sony camera is exciting, even with all the caveats….and I think today is TRULY a watershed moment…..This should (as we all know a MFT enthusiasts), turn the industry on its head….and it is so amazing the Canon and Nikon are up in the bleachers somewhere watching the race….I think Mr. Blackberry is sitting in their isle with them!!!! 🙂
The lenses are going to be huge with large aperture
But you only need f ÷ 2 to achieve the same DoF if that your thing (it’s mine)
Voigtländer & Zeiss rangefinder lenses won’t be too big!
All that’s needed will be lens adaptors.
While everyone is nonchalantly throwing the term “lens adapters” around like it was a camera strap or something….
Please read the following article and think about its implications on a highly technical implementation of random adaptors from wear ever.
I experienced this with some extension tubes from Kenko with my Canon FF…. The completely thru out the autofocus. Upon purchasing the product from Canon (at a considerably higher rate ….The Canon tube (obviously machined to incredible tolerances), did not effect the cameras autofocus in the least and was spot on. So I know from personal experience putting an adapter in between a highly technical camera and lens can and does introduce all kinds of possibilities for error…especially if it is cheaply made.
“Sony-Olympus partnership lead to have a close A7-OMD desig” Oly had to tell Sony how to put a hump in the middle??
removed it because it was too general. But I am sure they worked on this together. It means Olympus shared their OMD tech and Sony toke what they needed.
>So why is the Sony announcement that important?
> 2) Sony-Olympus partnership lead to have a close A7-OMD design, and same EVF. And 5 axis IBIS will be used in some future Sony models too
How exactly is this true? This doesn’t make sense. I mean, wasn’t it said that it was not close and now back to close design? Why Sony could not surely have come out with this as their own design? What exactly is close about these designs?
> 3) I am curious to see if Olympus will go FF too (would be easy now that they have access to Sony sensors).
I am beginning to think this may very well happen.
> 4) Eventually Olympus could make some lenses for the E-mount FF.
Or Sony could make them themselves using Olympus now absorbed know how.
Maybe Sony will buy Olympus?
They could merge though…
Native autofocus lenses by Zeiss are very expensive. Fast prime lenses for FE mount are relatively compact, but the zoom lenses are still bulky.
In term of price, A7 body is really interesting, very close to E-M1 price. I might buy A7 for my Voigt M lenses.
Fast prime lenses can only be compact for relatively short focal lengths.
Yes
35/1.8, 50/1.8, 85/1.8 These are popular FF prime.
…all of these focal length are nicely compact on FF sensor.
Anything substantially longer then the flange distance will be big, so no, a 85/whatever won’t be compact for such a mirrorless camera, at least not when compared to a 42.5 with the exact same absolute aperture and optical quality.
Do you actually understand what ‘focal length’ is, and how it relates to the distance between optical center of the lens and the imaging sensor, and how that relates to both physical length and optical quality that can be achieved?
No I don’t, please enlighten me. You do seem to know a lot.
If Olympus were smart, they would be hitching their wagon to Sony and leave Panasonic and m43 behind. Take their image stabilization tech and put it in the Sony’s bedroom and we can all cuddle up and have an orgy.
This is HUGE what Sony is announcing.
The promise of FULL FRAME MIRRORLESS has be bandied about for years now but all the players (Nikon, Canon, etc.) were too preoccupied with protecting their DSLR interests to take the leap.
But history shows that sometimes, to the victor does the trophy go if they take the risk.
Sony has sprinted out of the gate. Now it’s a matter of the others following or wallowing in misery as their market share decrease.
You forget that Leica has been making ‘mirrorless full frame’ for a while now… and unlike Sony, Leica actually has a lot of lenses and has a reputation of making absolutely stunning optics.
Yes, but the reason that Leica has not taken the market is because their camera and lenses are so unbelievably expensive.
too bad the lens line up sucks
I bet they’ll be coming soon with such a fantastic product
yeah I “bet” like the great lineup of zoom lenses for NEX apsc
Not all people want FF. Many people invested into the MFT system because of it’s size , weight and high quality lenses. If you change the sensor size up to FF size everything else would have to change as well. The MFT Sensor has it’s advantages and disadvantages compared to larger ones like FF and many who decided to use MFT appreciate it’s pro’s more than having a problem with it’s con’s.
It’s like FF vs Medium Format. There isn’t one truly better than the other – they’re different with different pro’s and con’s.
Agreed. Too me, these cameras are interesting for landscapes. No need for modern AF glass, and there is plenty of wide legacy glass to adapt.
In particular, I’ll be interested to see how the Voigtlander ultra-wides go on the 7R. I can see myself mounting the CV 15/4.5 on this if the performance is good.
Sony is not seeing the treasures they have left over from Minolta, if they would have made an XD7 just with an electronic heart, compatible to old MD/MC lenses, offering same small and Hi quality ff lenses Minolta did for the original lenses, it would have been a million seller. Now copying the OMD style is cheap.
No they can’t, as they do not own the XD design, nor do they own any of Minolta’s intellectual property.
What Sony bought was a business (as in, the distribution channel), a name (alpha), and a right to use certain technologies for a recurring fee.
The SRT mount and all the related technology are not in that package unless it concerns things that were reused in the AF/Dynax/Maxxum/Alpha mount line.
None of the actual know-how or engineering skills came with that deal.
Minolta still exists and is still in business, still designing optics, and still owning all the intellectual property rights from before the Sony deal, and still getting money from Sony for about every camera they sell.
The XD7/XD11 has the nicest sounding shutter of all the film SLRs I’ve every tried. Smooth, quiet and pleasant. And it’s a great camera too. Would be great with the A7’s tech inside with the advance lever still in it’s place!
Interesting comparison but why would you want to put a u43 lens on an A7, by the time you crop the sensor as the body will do automatically you don’t have much of an advantage over the OM-D range, if any, yes I know you will with the A7r but that is another matter again.
Take a look at Michael Reichmanns report on LuLa (link here http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sony_a7r_hands_on.shtml), well worth a read. New mount ‘EF’ modified E mount to accept a new range of FF lens’s, accepts E mount in crop mode, accept A mount lens with an adapter (I assume similar to the MMFx adapter Olympus use for 43 to u43 body).
makes absolutely no sense unless you’ve got a bunch of old lenses lying around. For the rest of us there are native lenses that are…enormous and insanely expensive zooms at a speed of…F/4 (why?).
The f/4 Zeiss zoom is just one stop slower than the Olympus f/2.8. It still has a one-stop advantage for shallow DOF and given the better high ISO behaviour of FF, the Sony is ahead…
Right…So for $4000 you’ll be able to have a camera and lens that are much much bigger for an equivalent gain of 1 F-stop, since f/4=f/2 on m43rds, over having the f/2.8 zoom on m43rds, which you could do for $1500 if you wanted…
Admin – You already run a Mirrorless Rumors and Sony Alpha Rumors Forums where this should have been posted so why the need to post this on the M4/3 Forum?
Umm,…maybe because 43rumors commenters asked for the comparison?
yes, everyone was commenting here on 43rumors and I thought it would be betetr to “face the news”. Obvisouly some hardcore MFT people will not like this. But as usual some peopel doens’t understand that it’s impossible to make everyone happy.
I posted my comments because some non M4/3 rumors may tend to feed and encourage those posting comments totally irrelevant to the topic rumor as occured earlier highjacking the M4/3 GM1 rumor discussions. You already have a weekly miscellaneous rumors which gives people an opportunity to voice requests as appropriate on other subjects.
Admin, you do great work.
If you are trying to please 1,000 trolls, you will just drive yourself crazy.
We love our format, but we can’t view m4/3 in a bubble. It’s only a small part of a huge and rapidly changing landscape of photographic tools. To properly understand m4/3 we need to evaluate and compare it in context with developments in other systems.
Don’t fall for the trolls!
Those are very wise words. Show them to your teacher, she’ll be impressed.
The beginning of FE system leads to many questions.
How will Sony maintain their A, E, and latest FE mount concerrently?
Do they have resources enough for these three systems?
I do not have a real answer to your very real question. However, according to an introductory Sony video, NEX and Alpha are now _both_ Alpha. Physically, they’re different, but at least marketing wise they’re the “same” brand (not that I know what that really means).
and here we go… Just hope that all the FF trolls have fun in this thread, and dont view in the rest of this site.
On the Topic Sony A7:
I like the design of that Sony a lot, but i bet there will be a lot of haters. 😉
great Camera and a fair Price. I would like that with some classic Leica lenses via Adapter as a second Camera 😉
Still, lenses are huge und not to cheap, so not in the same market then mFT. Still happy with the “tiny” sensor, and small overall packet of Camera an Lenses. Anyway, good move to use the NEX lense in Cropmode.
Oh,
Doesn’t look like too bad of a camera, the A7. It’s just the last thing I think about when I think of photography, is Sony. I’d also like to see a true size comparison between the two.
Good, solid, clean and contemporary lines and design!
Contemporary? Funny, I’m seeing all kinds of retro in this. Apart from the grip, it looks a lot like an early SLR evolved from a rangefinder design. As for the grip… well, it looks a little weird, but comfortable.
Overall I don’t mind the look. Preferable to the “molten” look of most modern SLRs and SLR-lookalikes.
both OMD and the A7 have that certain “german industrial design”, as someone mentioned. Its somewhere between modern and retro; more kind of a timeless design imo.
I believe it’s called transitional design
How can OM-D lenses work on the a7? After all, the mFT lenses are designed for a sensor size 1/4 that of the “full-frame”? (I prefer the term “double-frame”–less confusing for 24x36mm.)
Doesn’t seem particularly useful. Or are you saying the OM-D lenses do cover the larger sensor? I didn’t think that was true.
I’d think by cropping the image, just like many people do when using c-mount video lenses on m4/3?
Yes, understand the idea, but then you’d have an usable 8 or 9 Mpx image, maybe not all that adequate compared to the lens on mFT.
As soon as the higher pixel density FF-sensors arrive (50-60mPix), you can get same m43 image area and same DOF from FF-sensor with simple cropping and still retain the 16mpix final image. So FF offer much better versatility in the long run…
For example 16mpix m43-system and 40mm f1.8 lens will offer 80mm and f3.6 FF-comparable focal-length and DOF.
With 60mpix FF-system 40mm f1.8 lens will offer 40mm f1.8 – 80mm f3.6 capabilities with 16mpix still left after cropping to 80mm.
?? Admin says *OM* lenses, which are lenses for the 135 film cameras in Olympus OM series.
Admin also says:
“The one thing that is cool on the A7-A7r is that you can fit MFT lenses in crop mode by using that Fotodiox MFT to NEX adapter”
Yeah, Olympus OM lenses and even some Olympus pen F lenses! 😉
jrapdx
“How can OM-D lenses work on the a7? After all, the mFT lenses are designed for a sensor size 1/4 that of the “full-frame”? (I prefer the term “double-frame”–less confusing for 24x36mm.)
Doesn’t seem particularly useful. Or are you saying the OM-D lenses do cover the larger sensor? I didn’t think that was true.”
If it was only crop than it still would be useful for those having a big collection of (M)43 glass – sort of (M)43 on FF. However, the problem is that the pixel density of the 24 MP A7 is two times as little than that of OMD/GH/GX, so the resolution of 43 image circle on the FF sensor will be two times as little. However, since at the end it shall be the circular image, than it will have more resolution than the 43 rectangular area.
I just got depressed as hell http://camerasize.com/compare/#488,482 :'(
Good!
Now, if you want to cheer up, listen to the shutter. Does not matter if the A7 is still in Japan (or wherever they make them), you can still hear it! LOL!
I frankly don’t care about shutter noise I for $200 more than an EM-1 I got a top notch full frame camera about the same size… but that may just be me 🙂
What about the lenses?
Look that: http://camerasize.com/compact/#482.366,488.392,ha,t
And what kind of lens selection will you have?
Every FF lens, from M mount to CaNikon. Losing some AF speed, true, but it’s not a great loss for portraits or landscaping for example. Just saying.
The EM1 looks much more attractive. I would be welcome to Olympus making a full frame version that could take m43 lenses in crop mode or even joining Sony’s system.
I also hope that Olympus sees Sony’s attempt to satisfy videographers with mic in/headphone out, 60 fps, 24 fps, and uncompressed hdmi output. Although initial impressions on the video quality actually weren’t that good.
I suggest comparing with the E-M5 instead. Why? Because the 7 line from Sony is their ‘one below flagship’ line, similar to how the E-M5 is the model one step below ‘flagship’. A mirrorless NEX 9 would be more in line with the E-M1.
I also suggest keeping in mind that a camera body without lenses is generally not very useful, and that beyond the obvious wide-angle primes, laws of physics will cause lenses to become large, and that is where the true size of a system is.
Won’t work. General users, like me, who jump from DSLR to mirrorless don’t care about flagship things.
Works perfectly fine, if you don’t care for ‘flagship’ then you can save yourself some $400-500 by not going for the ‘flagship’ E-M1 in a comparison, and save quite a bit on weight and size as well.
Nex is a name that it’s going to disappear, only Alpha rmains. No rangefinder silhouette cameras in the near future from Sony, but a bigger mirrorless with IBIS (DSLR shape) in 2014.
Lenses are big, well, not 35mm f2.8, it looks compact enough.
I’m waiting to see some M mount shots, from 21mm to 50mm, then decide what to do. The only drawback to me it’s the noisy shutter..
Ditto on all counts, but I want IBIS too. I hope Sony gets “everything” (quiet shutter, IBIS, etc.) right in the first body, and brings it early 2014.
watch this:
http://j.mp/GRh7hZ
hello http://camerasize.com/compact/#482.30,488.84,ha,t
OMG !…
Or… http://camerasize.com/compact/#482.383,488.394,ha,t
😉
Anybody in for a used EM-1?
watch this instead 😉 http://camerasize.com/compact/#482.366,488.392,ha,t
very compact indeed. Only the battey grip makes it look like those very early Kodak SLR’s, like a mini tower almost. The body is impressive but the add ons makes it huge.
Sorry, but it’s NOT really that cool to stuff an M43 lens on a full-frame camera.
“A7 body for $1700 only” please keep decent, it’s still a freaking load of money to throw at the hobby practiced by most of us here
compared to other FF cameras. Also $500 can be a lot of money for many people. We should please compare it within his category. If I compare it with what an Indian man earns per month even the OMD is outreageus!
$500 is a lot for many people – even in the U.S. Trust me on this. 🙂
Now this is an interesting problem to have, fully paid for Em1 12-40 kit estimated delivery mid-dec and for not that much more money could swap it out for an A7r… Or for less money get into an RX10 and wait a few months for the next lineup of A-Mount cameras from Sony.
I see a lot of potential in m43 but to me the Em1, despite being a beautiful hunk of metal, really tested me with its offensively inadequate video specs. I bought it anyway because i thought i’d be shooting with it by about now- mid october. I’m not.
Everything Sony announced today is 1080 60p. Alpha mount full frame camera’s coming Q1 2014 all but confirmed to be with 4k video. By the time my Em1 12-40 kit is in my hand all these Sony’s are going to be available too, and more than likely the A-mounts announced or leaked.
If Olympus can pull out a firmware update in the next 2 months fixing the video problems i’ll probably take delivery of my camera. If not thank god for exchange policies, Sony is the new king of the camera world.
Bravo! Sony, Olympus, Samsung and the other toy factories need people like you! I suggest you should buy the Sony 7r as well, with a 3 lens kit, and pay for the “apps” on top. And by no means waste money on flashes, light modifiers, photography books etc. Those were good in the middle age.
Charlie, how much are you willing to invest in the lenses? Their cost is the real burden, at least for me.
well if you could live with old manual film lenses, its not really expensive.
only thing is that UWA lenses are rare or expensive
Correct, i actually didn’t even think until now that i have a bit of full frame minolta glass from the 70’s my grandfather gave me with my first film camera. Could easily buy a cheap adaptor and be playing around with a 70-200 f2.8, 50 f1.4, 28 f2.8 at no cost. Hmmm, now thats something else to consider. Maybe i don’t even have to buy any lenses with the A7r, at least not at first.
At the moment i have the 12-40 and 75 1.8 to go with the EM1. If i were to go with the A7r i’d be looking at the new Sigma 24-105 f4 which might hopefully come in E mount, and the Sony Zeiss 55 f1.8.
I think those 2 zooms and primes are fairly comparable in size and weight, as are the Em1 and A7r. No price on the 24-105 but i’d expect around $1000, same as the 12-40. I paid around 900 for the 75 with the lens hood and the 55 f1.8 is what $999 so pretty much the same money spent on glass.
Arguably the Sigma zoom is more versatile than the oly and the 55 gives a more useful working distance for portrait’s whilst being a more useful go to lens for low light.
All in i think i spent $3300 for Body, zoom, prime with Olympus. To do the same with the Sony it is probably going to be an extra thousand but for 25% more cash i’m probably gaining triple the stills performance. And with video, which is important to me because like many people i like to shoot both, there is basically no comparison because the Sony does about as much as a camera can while the Oly does pretty much the least.
Its not like i have money to burn, i’ve been saving for a long time to invest in a new system. To be honest i spent more than i wanted to on the Em1 but it seems to me there is a lot of justification throwing a bit more money at the Sony for what you get
Your in the money there
Olympus, the EM-1 just took a serious beating
Spec up the video, drop the price and keep the bonuses flowing
Enjoy the camera you have, problem solved. It’s isn’t really a problem when it’s self-created. I don’t see how Sony releasing a new camera makes the EM1 less of a camera than it was yesterday.
Believe me if i had it, i’d have no regrets. Problem is Olympus said shipping October and thats what my dealer told me when i paid in full and up front to secure a place in line. Then they say hey that new zoom we said you could order with your camera and get a deal on, we haven’t made anywhere near enough and you’ll be waiting a couple of months now. Highly annoying. And inevitably someone was going to come along and bring new products to the market and thats what Sony did so its only sensible to revisit the decision to go with Oly and try and compare pro’s and con’s of each system.
Where’s the market pressure coming from for Olympus to go full frame? Unless Sony want to glut the market with FE cams, with reiterations every six months. I doubt that’s their strategy.
These cams, if you include lenses, will be far from affordable to many people – and will be far from compact.
Bye bye OM-D. It was great to know you. FF here I come. A7 + 35MM 2.8 is all I need… that’s 1.4 in MFT world and there aren’t too many of AF 1.4 MFT lenses out there.
I will buy your OM-D cheap. I need a second one for weddings.
It’s f1.4 in terms of Depth of field but… Ok, I’ll stop now! 😀
This is what I was after:
Direct quote from admiringlight.com
“So, if I shoot a portrait with a Micro 4/3 camera and a 25mm f/1.4 lens, and I shoot it at f/1.4. The field of view, depth of field and amount of background blur will be the same as if I’d shot the image at the same spot with a full frame camera, and a 50mm lens at f/2.8. Since Micro 4/3 has a crop factor of 2: 25mm x 2 = 50mm lens for the same field of view, and f/(1.4 x 2)= f/2.8 for the same depth of field. Similarly, 25mm/1.4 = 17.9mm aperture size and 50mm/2.8 = 17.9mm aperture size (so same amount of background blur at the same focus distance).
This means that, all things being equal, a smaller format will generally have DEEPER depth of field and less background blur than a larger format. This makes sense because smaller format cameras use shorter focal lengths for the same field of view, and therefore similar f-stops mean a smaller physical aperture size: less blur.”
Another take on it is… given same size lenses (i.e., faster lens for MFT versus slower lens for FF), the MFT gets a faster shutter speed. So, once again, “less blur”.
So that seems to be smaller sensor vs bigger sensor claim to fame: “less blur” (whether by bokeh, or by shutter speed).
I’m guessing you can bump up the ISO on a sensor that is four times larger than mine, to get shutter speed down?
Correct. Full frame 135 has 1.5 stops of advantage over m4/3. So that sort of cancels out the faster shutter speed advantage of m4/3 in the scenario above.
The only areas where m4/3 has clear wins over full frame are in the areas of lens sizes, and when you do need deeper DOF at bigger apertures (eg, street or landscapes at dusk).
No doubt the A7 / A7r are very interesting .
Sony is in the right track .
Now let’s wait & see what are the responds from the rest especially Fuji’s overdue model , X Pro .
m43 too , need to be more innovative in future to stay relevant . GX7 might be my last cam if I still don’t see any breakthoughs ( 4/3 organic sensor ) in the future .
OM lens can go directly on the new A7? How?
Cause OM lens are SO CHEAPER, SO FAST! Could be a good idea to take one of them for this new sony? Thanks
!!!!!!!!! here an example why Olympus calls the System MICRO 4/3: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://j.mp/GRh7hZ
The Oly 75mm lens is about the 12-40 lens of Olympus….
Two completely different lenses. I wish there would be a 150mm pairing the quality of MZuiko75mm….
Yes. So obvious it shouldn’t have to be pointed out.
Agree Frye, but I hope someone prooves me I’m wrong saying that there’s no 150mm with THAT quality available 🙂
I agree with Admin that Ibis is the best piece of know-how Olympus can offer to Sony. It’s a bit surprising A7 don’t get it, but technology transfers are always very touchy situations: secret, strategic, complex, and no one wants to get fooled! It’s normal to start by a warm up round, about less strategic technologies.
I just guess what Olympus get back from this partnership…
From last Terada San interview it’s possible to understand that Olympus’ most present need is for firmwares programmers, and Sony probably got lots of them!
The other obvious partnership is Olympus providing lenses for Sony FF. In this case it would be very logic to Olympus go FF too… But Sony already have this Zisss partnership for high grade lenses so…
I think IBIS was not possible to be used with a big sensor like this in such a small body: you need space to move it in the 5 axis directions.
http://www.stuckincustoms.com/2013/10/16/new-sony-a7r-full-frame-mirrorless-takes-computational-photography-to-a-new-level/
WEATHER SEALED
“We poured a glass of water on it!” the Sony guys told me. I guess that is a way they test these things — I don’t know. But they said it has the same weather sealing as the D800, which is probably good enough, I figure. The lenses are weather-sealed too. That’s good news… finally.
While the bodies are quite interesting and I might end up buying into the system at some point, certainly not now…
What has NEX taught us ? 3 years into the system and we still don’t have any lens truly worthy of the bodies and our lust (the 24 is too big and expensive, the 35 doesn’t do justice to the sensor, only the 50 seems to hit a sweet spot but at a weird focal length, it’s Sigma that ends up offering the more tempting lenses, even more so considering their price).
It seems it’s going to be the same for the A7 for the foreseeable future and when we’ll have the lenses, if ever, the bodies will have been replaced at least once.
Of course M4/3 also took some time to establish itself as a system, but by year 3 it already had the Pana 45, 25, 20, 7-14, the Oly 45, 9-18, 12… And we had the Pana 12-35, 35-100 and the Oly 75 on the roadmap…
These considerations are obviously irrelevant if you intend to use it mainly with legacy lenses, but that’s supposedly a niche.
Well I don’t think so. Zeiss and other manufacturers will begin selling their alternatives because Sony FF will get some nice momentum. And sadly I see it’s a big threat for m43 why ?
1. Nobody with a brain in his head can get E-M1 instead of a FF camera. For us who are heavily invested into m43 yes but for new comers no way.
2. Canon, Nikon could replicate Sony’s example which will cause FF mirrorles prices to drop even further and at that point small companies like Olympus will not be able to compete in any way. Above all by that time they loose all their advantages since Sony can hapily use Olympus best unique features (IBIS, …)
There is a chance that m43 will interest point&shooters but damn I hate that possibility. As of now there are dozens of m43 cameras but only very very few of them have an acceptable UIX (buttons, handling, screen, EVF). So sadly only very top models have good enough UIX hey but they are overpriced !
Not good not good …
@dunsun
While I agree with your sentiments, I don’t think Sony alpha FE obsoletes MFT simply because you can’t shrink lenses meant for FF, whereas the MFT lenses are quite compact already. Plus, each sensor size has its own strengths, so FF is not necessarily preferred in all circumstances and applications.
For artistic control of bokeh, FF is strong, but for extended FF can be weak.
And for travel, FF lens system is much more cumbersome than an MFT system (which is more cumbersome than a Sony RX10, and so on). So you pick your system(s) based on your needs and preferences.
I personally think FF is inevitably dinosaur (except for Pros). Eventually, new sensor technology will make compact sensors more than good enough, and big system cameras will suffer (as in Japan now).
CORRECTION (typo):
For artistic control of bokeh, FF is strong, but for extended _depth of field_ FF can be weak.
Bit of a shame that Olympus is taught by a competitor how to build an actual equivalent to the original 35mm OM…
Hey Sony ! Look at all these fanboys falling from the tree and trying to catch a branch !
Impressive piece of tech, but i’m staying on m4/3, because for my shooting style IQ advantage are too thin in FF, and OMD had a lot of stuff more interesting.
I am not impressed with these new Sonys. Sure the body price is quite affordable but what about lenses? They are absurdly overpriced for being that slow.
You gain nothing with mounting a slow lens on a full frame body when you could use fast glass on a mft body. The images won´t look that much different to mft images if dof is only one stop shallower and you need much higher iso because of the lack of ibis and slow aperture.
My Pana 25mm 1.4 has dof of 2.8 at FF – if I compare it to the new 35mm 2.8 Zeiss, I have less dof, have two stops more of light gathering and due to ibis could shoot around 4 stops slower shutter speeds. And fast mft glass is cheaper and lighter than these FF lenses from Sony and Zeiss. The new 12-40 2.8 has dof of 5.6 what is not that much of a differene to the Sony 28-70 3.5-5.6 or even the 24-70 4 Zeiss. And I can use much lower iso values with my Oly.
No, I am not impressed at all. (the only thing that looks good is Sonys jpeg engine – it looks very “olympish”)
That last bit might be because Olympus gets their new sensors from Sony.
i know and its ok with me
the lack of ibis in the sony cams might be due to space restrictions – letting a big sensor hover in a magnetic field might require more space than that small body can provide
Amen Charles! I was exited by this camera (7r) but now I’m carefully thinking about it. I will wait for first tests/photos and RAW files to download, then decide: mid December is enough time.
Marco, I believe that iq will be top notch and for people with legacy glass these bodies might be no brainers – but I have no vintage ff lenses, so nothing for me :/
For legacy glass owners, I believe there’s another wrinkle: IBIS. IBIS works great with legacy glass, so for a company that has access to IBIS (via Sony Olympus investment), it should be a no-brainer to put IBIS in their bodies. As a legacy glass owner, I await THAT body (and that should be a smart FF camera). But for all the quality features of these bodies, they lack IBIS support for legacy glass. Doh.
I agree about this, I am underwhelmed, and no amount of headless chickens are going to change my mind.
m4/3 as far it can go is a v. good proposition, better than 35mm.
The only limit I can see is that it has reached limits to growth, that is that the m4/3 sensor cannot be improved anymore, because, say, levels of noise cannot be reduced more than today.
However it would still be the Mpx race, the only thing that headless chickens understand.
I don’t know about you, but 1200 for a 24-70 from zeiss that is stablizied doesn’t seem to expensive to me. I don’t even want the product, but that comment is ridiculous.
I was checking out the Amazon site and pulled this info:
a7 body $1700
a7r body $2300
Zeiss FF lenses:
35mm f2.8 $800
55mm f1.8 $1000
24-70mm f4 $1200
70-200 f2.8 $3000
The Sony kit lens adds $300 to the body and is 28-70 f3.5-5.6.
So a three lens kit of 24-70mm, 70-200mm, and 55mm prime will cost you $5,200, on top of the body cost. Looking at the photo of the 70-200mm, it looks huge.
I don’t think m43 has anything to worry about from these offerings. The body taken out of context seems like a great deal, but add in lenses and you’re paying double for FF over m43, and hauling a large and heavy kit.
I know FF lenses are great for DOF, but are comparable to m43 lenses in light gathering power. Compare the size and price of the Panasonic 35-100 f2.8 to the Sony offering and there’s no comparison.
Thanks for this! I was wondering about the lens costs. This helped bring it back to reality…the sky isn’t falling afterall!
But in 6 months of so, if Sigma came in and made a few pancakes… I may have to divorce my beloved m4/3!
Paying $5000 for an F/4 kit is absurd.
Agreed, it’s absurd. A Canon F4 70-200 would be a closer comparison to the software-bodged 35-100, and for a similar price.
And you get that proper, ripe Canon UI, no funny menus that stand in the way.
You are right but we are talking about Zeiss lenses here. Zeis has always been very expensive but with a very hight IQ. Sigma, Tamron will join with very good prices be sure about it.
Anyway you can always take some excellent good old manual lenses from the past …
For me this is the very best thing about FF (yes you can do the same for m43 but than you loose very important wide + normal focal lengths).
FF has many advantages for a cosntruction of lenses around a “normal wide” focal length.
Ok, 24 and 60p. It just killes the E-M1.
That 35mm is at f2.8?! For that price?! Maybe f1.8… and that 55mm, why the extra 5mm? I, personally, think the camera is BUFUGLY as well. I do appreciate that Sony is diving into this market though, it’ll be great once other companies hop on.
Common admin are you serious trying to compare EM5 with A7 or for that matter A7 with any other M43 camera……..Lets get real the A7 is so much better in every way. And yes there are a lot of small FF superb lenses out on the market. And Sony gonna make a lot because this is the future. FF at the top and APSC as smaller compromise. M43 is dead because cameras such as the EM5 and EM1 are not small enough to be pocketcamera’s or smaller than APSC. The only way to survive for M43 is to be cheap around 400/500 euro. Above this price people with some sence are gonna buy APSC. Above 1400 euro people are gonna buy FF. Its a new day a new dawn where there is no more room for expensive M43. Dont misunderstand me. I like M43 but is way way to expensive to compete with APSC or FF. Also as you can see on DXO M43 can not touch APSC even not the really old APSC cameras. And the A7 is not going to be the EM5 for the masses. Its to expensive. APSC is for the masses and M43 is gonna be for the people who cant let go of the past or find is to much trouble to let go of all those M43 lenses they already have. And the amount of those people are gonna shrink real fast. Oly and Pan must make a choise. Switch to APSC/FF or make M43 real cheap. If they dont do this by by by.
y r u @ 43 ?
It breaks my heart to agree with you. “there is no more room for expensive M43″… If some cheaper lens options come out for the A7, people will switch and fast. Sad day…
IPSE DIXIT…………;)
I like the NEX cameras but the lenses just aren’t there compared to M43. Geez, even NEX users complain about lack of quality lenses – not to mention the quality control issues, etc. As far as sensor performance is concerned, it’s only an issue if you live by DXO ratings – which, you know, is not the same as the real world.
Olympus better release new video firmware fast if they want to survive or make on headline again. And this timea simple framerate change is not going to be enough.
Also in the future Panasonic and Lumix have to release a full frame camera with m43 mount. As a OM-D EM-5 user this is really making me anxious, but good job Sony.
Correcrtion. The first to sentences were meant with E-M1 in mind.
The 5-axis stabilisation is the only advantage on the Olympus, but they need to bring the video to the next level.
M43 also needs to lower the lens prices to compete.
OMD? OMD??? OMD????? do not associate the retro nonsense olympus cameras with the sony’s cameras.
bleah! bleah! bleah! omd…
Imagine if Olympus goes FF with the same mount a la pany/oly w/ m43
This is silly. A good looking camera but ask yourself this:
What would this camera Plus the 35mm f2.8 do that the OMD plus 17mm f1.8 not do? 2/3 of a stop. That is it. But the OMD has IBIS which in many shooting scenarios will buy you back some ISO points.
Another question:
What will this camera do for you that the OMD plus 12-40 do? 1 stop. With less range. But what about when we throw in the 40-150 f2.8? How big would an 80-300 f4 be? I think we know… Well I hear you all say an 80-300 f5.6 right? At this point I ask you why you are bothering to buy the FF camera?
I can shoot a 3 lens system with the EM1 plus 12-40 and 40-150 for a guaranteed huge savings on the A7 with the 24-70 plus an 80-300 f4/5.6 with very little IQ impact. The money I am saving will get me a VL 42mm f0.95 for when I want absurdly shallow DoF.
🙂
Good camera though, when I saw it I thought it would be cool to mount my OM 50mm f1.2 on it… But then I thought a Speed Booster will be cheaper 😀
The lens size advantage will always give advantage to MFT, but I forgot about the Speed Booster option. Thanks for the reminder!-)
Are you serious???? Please wake up…………….
The sensor is four times larger, right. Surely that has to come into the picture.
Hmm yes, using equivalent fov lenses that are a stop slower and dtill having a 1 stop advantage was mentioned and is the direct result of that 4x larger sensor.
Why is reading so incredibly difficult for people like you?
I’ve pre-ordered the A7, but I’m still holding on to my E-M5–there’s room in my bag for both systems——especially if I’m shooting for dough!
I hope that Sony’s A7 design will bring about a re-think on size by Panasonic and Olympus.
no sense.
This new Sony system will only be attractive in about 2 years when it actually has a decent lens selection. For now, the E-M1 is still the better buy.
…for people who actually need more lenses than the ones that are going to be available soon…and do not need high-end low-light capabilities…
Could the A7 and especially A7R be more prone to camera shake due to it´s light weight? Several ppl reported that even with the D800 you need very fast shutter speeds to get sharp pictures. How would such a sensor behave in a 500g body?
It’s now been about an hour since I first heard of this camera.
First I thought, ok cool
then I thought, man it really beats the gh3.
then I started thinking, what camera, mirror or mirror less would be better than this. Can’t think of one.
it beats cameras like the d800 on price, size and lenses (canon, Nikon with metabone or native)
it beats the e-m1 and e-m5 with its FF and video features.
it beats the gh3 with its video features.
it beats the 5dmkiii with its price, size, lenses and video features.
I think this might be the camera so far that is closest to perfection of its time and technology.
me want, gh3 coming to an internet auction near you soon.
I see zero semblance between any Olympus “OMD” cameras and this Sony except that they are, well, mirrorless photo cameras with humpy viewfinders (all right the viewfinders are of somewhat angular design and have the same electronic guts, but that’s about it, isn’t it?)
OTOH this one, less the grip, VF and intechangeable mount, surely resembles the RX1.
FF is great if you need it. Most of us do not need FF. For those who do, you know have more options. For those who don’t enjoy your APSC or M4/3 or Nikon V2 or even your point and shoot. It’s about having fun, so go out and shoot,
I miss the old days of film, when tech moved at a snails pace and the tech was all about the film and processing! Had my first camera for over 15 years. It was all about the lenses! Yashica FX-2.
Seems to me the (larger, more expensive) Pro m43 idea has taken a very serious blow.
m43 shines when it hits the sweet spot for size, price and quality.
The EM-1 is not in that sweet spot. It just got blanked.
All the talk about the lack of lenses for Sony is overblown. Three years ago when I started on m43, yes lenses were the trump.
Now, the only trump left is 5 axis. And Sony will have that next year.
The small m43 bodies with lenses like the 75mm 1.8 can still justify their existence.
But the only reason I’d go with EM-1 is because I’ve invested grands in m43 lenses.
Just realized I was going to call them legacy lenses.
The body is the same size but the sensor is four times larger. There is a point where finesse loses out to sheer strength, and I’d say sony does that quite easily now.
And should have added, the case for a PEN with inbuilt evf and industry-standard video specs has never been greater.
Sad really that they didn’t see this coming and have one out now.
Panasonic did.
You just listed all the reasons why the 43rds went defunct. Only in the case of the m43rds it is happening at a much faster rate.
Olympus never learnt from its debacles with the 43rds.
Sad but true. 🙁
It sounds like it has great potential but I’ll wait til all the bugs are worked out…I hear that the shutter is loud…I mean disturbingly loud…I’ll just keep what I got and be happy
IN ONE SHOT THEY KILLED M43 WORLD AND ALL FULL FRAME MODELS.
So many idiots! It’s easy to make a small body. The lenses are the problem. Look at the sensor in the mount, it’s filling the whole area. The image quality will always be much softer away from the centre. The original four thirds was designed with the biggest sensor possible and sharpness across the frame. That is why the mount was twice the size of the sensor diaganol. Messing around with microlenses is no substitute. You will have a tiny body with huge un optimised lenses at best or big lenses with atrocious quality. Forget the body it,s the lenses stupid!
This is where MFT still wins:
http://camerasize.com/compact/#482.366,488.392,ha,t
Time.
Time won’t change the laws of physics, and those happen to dictate the smallest possible size of lenses. The simple consequence is that a m43 25/1.4 can be smaller then a ‘full frame’ 50/2.8 at the same absolute aperture and still providing better optical quality over the part of the image circle used by the respective formats. The difference gets bigger with longer lenses, and smaller with shorter lenses.
Yep. They brought down the body size by removing the mirror and penta-prism, but lens size, due to physics, will always be out of their reach. Portability will always belong to MFT. Large, awkward, and clumsy will always belong to 35mm.
Well, the Sony lenses will still be vastly overpriced, oversized and underperforming for some time compared to MFT, but this is certainly an interesting addition to the mix. Just not a game changer…yet. If they can bring down the cost of those lenses and increase the quality, then they’ll have something. They will never bring down the size, which is the whole point of MFT and will remain its niche.
You are all nuts. The average guy doesn’t need FF and the lenses will be expensive and I mean very expensive.
Sony – Sonnar T* FE 35mm f/2.8 ZA Lens
B&H# SO3528 Mfr# SEL35F28Z
Price: $798.00
The newly announced sony rx10 is the news today, not A7 not GM1. This camera is a true masterpiece!
Too much focus on an old sensor size developed for slow film with most shooting at ISO 60 – 200. Sensor tech will still develop faster than optics making the need for large sensors less, its smarter to do bright/fast HQ lenses that work with smaller hi-tech sensors with future in mind. The need for large sensors to get high IQ is already past.
And neither A7 or A7r is really complete, it either lacks this or that (as PDAF, IBIS, non-AA filter, good weather sealing, etc in one body).
That 35mm lens is pretty expensive for its specs. A f2.8 for $800? No. Canon has an f2 for $600. I think it would have been more impressive to have used a mountable RX1 lens, which has been rated rather highly and it is an f2.
I like where Sony is going with this camera, might even pick one up, but I still love my EM5 and have a few really nice lenses for it. And size, the A7 is a great but those lenses are still gonna be big. But, look at my personal shooting, I use one or two primes in the 14-20mm range (for m43). If I am doing any pro work, the size isn’t very important. An A7 with a small 28mm or 35mm lens would work perfectly for daily use. Those big lenses for pro work wouldn’t get used unless I’m getting paid. In other words, the size of the lenses may not matter to me much.