Like it was with the GH3 Panasonic asked Amazon US to list the GH4 as a DSLR! Indeed to see how good the pre-sales are you have to check the Amazon DSLR ranking (Click here to see the list) and not the mirrorless category ranking. As you can see GH4 preorders are doing fine and I hope the camera will stay on top of this ranking for a long time 🙂
I guess Panasonic marketing is aware that the word “DSLR” has a much higher importance than “Mirrorless” or “CSC” or whatever else.
And an anonymous 43rumors reader sent me this:
When I called Adorama at 2pm (PST) 10 MAR 14. The Customer service agent confided that they had had over 100 orders for the GH4 since noon (2 hours!) He said it was easily their best selling item for the day and it was basically the only item people were buying. He said at noon Adorama already placed a massive order for GH4s with Panasonic just for the ones ordered since midnight. And that he himself had just placed his own order for a GH4 7 minutes before he took my call.
North American preorders, shipping date and price:
GH4 camera at Amazon (Click here), Adorama (Click here), BHphoto (Click here), and Panasonic (Click here). Price: $1,698. In Canada at Vistek (Click here).
GH4 camera with interface unit at Amazon (Click here), Adorama (Click here) and BHphoto (Click here). Price: $3,298
Interface unit only at Amazon (Click here), Adorama (Click here), BHphoto (Click here) and Panasonic (Click here). Price: $1,998
European preorders and price:
UK at Wexphotographic, CameraWorld, UKdigital, CVP, TipTop.
Holland at Fotohanskeuzekamp.
Belgium at Fotokonijnenberg.
Norway at Fotovideo.
61 Responses
*Grabs Popcorn*
Oh, this is going to be GOOD!! I’m looking forward to see how the Fanboys spin THIS!
IBIS and ALL!!!
Speaking as someone who learned photography in the film era, and is now a brand-new-to-the-format owner of an E-M10, I think that the endless arguments here about DSLR vs Mirrorless are funny. Who here thinks that twenty years from now, cameras with mirrors will still dominate the market? I’d like to hear your argument.
The DSLR is going the way of the film camera. It will be confined to a small niche of enthusiasts.
By that time, the arguments will be about which technology offers the best IQ and bokeh- the pico4/3rds or the tunable optical fiber camera wound around everyone’s button-sized cellphone / wearable supercomputer. Baseline ISO? Who knows? You’ll be able to take flashless pictures on a spelunking trip. Fastest shutter? 1/10^6 of a second.
I’m guessing that dedicated instruments called cameras will scarcely exist.
Compared to the gramophone and its derivatives, the iPod merged the player with the storage medium. The next generation merged the iPod with the general purpose computer, imager, and comm device within the smart phone. Guess what will happen to the high-end camera?
You guys espousing the DSLR are living in the past. Meanwhile, I’m about to go out to take pictures of our current year 2014 people, nature, and civilization. For posterity. With my m4/3 Oly. Enjoy your arguing…
I appreciate your point of view and find agreement with much of what you say.
I learned photography in the early 70’s, before internal light meters, built in flash, auto focus, Auto exposure, programmed exposure etc. We had to use a Gossen LunaPro light meter, and get everything right, in the camera, to shoot Kodachrome 25.
Like you I have witnessed many changes owing to computerization of cameras.
I especially appreciate your ability to extrapolate from experience to project the future. That makes you a forward thinker. Requires thoughtfulness, meditation, insight, comparative reasoning etc. You sure won’t find much if any of those qualities on this forum.
Like you, I see the DSLR (with mirror) as a dying breed. I foresee a new breed of Handheld Recording Studio in a “camera” form, (mirrorless, of course), like the GH4 which can function separately as a 4K Video cam, Wedding quality photos, HIFI sound recording mode, High Quality In-built microphones.
All of these features are easily within reach . . . cell phones already provide such. Most young people will demand a level of functionality that surpasses what their cell phone can do.
Mr Egg, with your ancient experience, you will not fail to see the absolute quality (for the same or less money) of a DSLR vs a M43… The latter having a lot less of it. I speak for myself and for some million shooters out there, things might turn around but this is where we are now.
Tell your bosses at Oly to cut those prices, then we talk.
I am really disappointing with both Panasonic, and Amazon. In spite of the fact that it is an amazing camera, it is NOT, by definition, a DSLR and should not be listed as one. In fact, it has capabilities that go far beyond most DSLRs in almost every way except ultimate IQ, high ISO/low light capability and possibly focus tracking (but that last has yet to be proven). It is a mirrorless camera by definition and should be listed as such. I am not surprised at all that the marketing people at Panasonic, being marketing people, would feel dishonesty to be appropriate, but am very surprised that Amazon would allow themselves be a part of it.
The average consumer doesn’t care if the camera has a mirror or not, so if it looks and functions like a DSLR then to the buying public it’s a DSLR.
You forgot: battery life, color rendition, proper viewfinder, expert usability… To me, these things matter more than some pseudo technical numbers. You are right, this is no DSLR – it is far below, at least for still photography.
I think all this shows is that you’re not familiar with what DSLRs are on the market.
– color rendition
Compare this to any DSLR on the market, especially at the same price point. I think you’ll be surprised. For stills, IQ is virtually indistinguishable from any APS-C DSLR on the market. Really, ISO rating is only significantly different when comparing it to full frame.
Check dxomark if you don’t believe me.
– proper viewfinder
Define “proper”. I went mirrorless *for* the EVF.
– expert usability
Pffft!
What you’re telling me here is that because you are ignorant about this camera and prefer an optical viewfinder, that it is “far below, at least for still photography”. I think we all know that isn’t true.
There is no need to take that tone, my fanfriend. Everybody can try and see for themselves. Sure, if you let dxomark speak, some stupid things will come out.
You need to explain how the presence of a mirror affects image quality. If you have two cameras with the same sensor and processing engine, then IQ will be the same, even if one has a mirror and the other has not. If what you really mean is that a M43 sensor gives worse IQ than a larger sensor, then that is another point entirely, and has nothing to do with DSLR vs. mirrorless.
Just compare an E-M1 to a 70D or 7100D, with equivalent lenses. it is that simple. Don’t forget to compare the prices, either.
I am encouraging people to try stuff, there is no need for flawed “logical” discussions.
It’s easy to forget to look at the product as a whole. The 70D and 7100D are certainly fine cameras. They don’t deliver the dynamic range of the E-M1 and don’t have a stabilized sensor either. The IS in Olympus cameras adds a tremendous amount of value. The E-M1 is also weather sealed and the 7100 isn’t.
That’s without getting into feature by feature comparisons, but you get the point. Having a slightly bigger sensor and having Canon written on the front doesn’t automatically make it a better camera. Given these examples, I’d say the E-M1 is at an appropriate price point.
Sorry, not true. I can also say that the sun shines at night, but it does not make it happen.
In what way is this not true? What do you disagree with?
But the difference you’re seeing is caused by the difference in sensor size, which, again, has nothing to do with the m43 cameras being mirrorless. An APS-C mirrorless surely has better IQ than a Four Thirds DSLR, wouldn’t you agree? So stop claiming that mirrorless cameras have worse IQ than DSLRs, because it’s not true. Small sensor cameras have worse IQ than cameras with a larger sensor, and that’s the reason why the D7100 have better IQ than the E-M1. There is no flaw in my argument.
Heh…nice. They never say “oh…I see. According to dxomark your camera is very pretty good too.” In fact, it’s doubtful that you could tell the difference between photos taken with any modern system camera. They’re so close in image quality and capabilities that the only reliable way to tell them apart is a scientific pixel-peeping test like dxomark.
So I guess there’s two things that come to mind here: when you can get clean images up to 3200 on virtually any of these cameras (and usable images at even higher ISOs), even on 4/3 format sensors, really, there are far more significant considerations than whether you have less than 2 more stops of ISO. Second, format (processing too, if you’re using JPEG) is the only factor which actually makes a difference when you look at the science, assuming you have a decent lens. And format has nothing to do with whether or not it has a mirror.
So enough with the chest thumping; people have tried these cameras, they’re great, and so are the DSLRs. Nobody needs to feel like any more or less of a photographer for choosing an OM-D or a 5D Mark III. Both take fantastic images and both are light-years ahead of anything digital we had 10 years ago. Actually, for ISO performance, they’re far ahead of the film we had 10 years ago too, to put things in perspective.
While agreeing with your points, I have one small correction: processing comes into play when you shoot raw too, because the raw files you get from the cameras rarely give you “what the sensor saw”. The camera manufacturers often apply noise reduction, and perhaps other processing too, even before the data is saved as a raw file. Furthermore, some manufacturers, like Sony, applies lossy compression to raw files to get file sizes down.
Fair enough. 🙂 I figured some processing was required (analog to digital, color grading) but I didn’t know how significant it was.
Far below DSLR, sure! Color rendition is an attribute of sensor and image processor, not the camera type. Proper viewfinder? Electronic viewfinders are revolutionary with all info beamed in front of your eyes to help you get the proper shot and exposure, I would never go back to optical. Expert usability? Plenty of buttons with amazing configurability make it more than usable.
And even then, color rendition doesn’t depend on sensor size. Smaller formats do just as well.
Pixel count and high ISO are the only consistent differences with larger formats, to a point. Optimal format for high ISO is probably somewhere between APS-C and FF with current technology. Medium format turns out to be too larger to fabricate an efficient sensor for low light.
Sorry guys, larger sensors do make for better color – beside cleaner and crisper images. I have cameras with sensors of different sizes, and the bigger ones always have better colors, with more nuances, more natural.
My “art” is heavily color-based, I use a lot of flashes with colored gels, I am used to noticing color differences.
Digital MF is just too expensive vs 1/2 to max 1 stop extra quality, because it is nowhere as large as analog MF. Maybe we get real 645 sensors at a reasonable price, one day? That would be cool, and the lenses are not so big, I have a few. The usual story applies: equivalent lenses have similar sizes – teles sing a different song.
Having said that, M43 is certainly good enough for most people, by now. Once they cut those prices, it will be even better.
Of course DSLRs are way above this, there is no question which one is better *and* cheaper – at least for stills. Anybody who tried both can vouch for this.
However, this is a M43 forum, and it is chock full of marketing trolls, so watch for the “you have no clue” or “bugger off” replies 🙂
Here is a tip for the few honest disbelievers: try and you will see.
Your statement is too general to be true. You could (in theory) tear the mirror out of any DSLR and still get exactly the same image quality.
Your statement might be true of cameras currently on the market. But I think you’ll be surprised. Low-end DSLRs tend to have poor manual controls. And low-end micro four thirds models with the same sensors and processing as higher end models sell for pretty reasonable prices. E-PM2’s with dual zooms go for about $350 USD now. Used, $100 can get you an E-PL1 or PM2 with a zoom lens. Or an E-P1 body. That’s going to take you beyond any entry level APS-C DSLR in terms of image quality, including ISO performance and color rendition, albeit with a little less bulk.
But back to the original point, assuming you’re right about the currently available products, what makes you think that has anything to do with one line having a mirror and one line not having one? Image quality doesn’t depend on the implementation details of the viewfinder, but on the sensor, optics and processing engine. Professional usability similarly isn’t dependent on the implementation details of the viewfinder but on the performance and features it offers and the usability of the interface. These attributes have little or nothing to do with the mirror.
Look, E-PMs are no bargain: they are priced right, because they are toys without focus control nor manual controls. They are oversized p&s, and they don’t beat any entry level DSLRs – quite the opposite.
After so many years, these dumb multinationals have not managed it yet, to replace that old mirror *properly*. This is the sad truth.
And neither are entry level DSLRs.
If you look at the mid range of either, they match up very well. Yes, they have effectively replaced the mirror in the OM-D line. Dirt cheap with a viewfinder is still the domain of a DSLR, but you’re not going to get better image quality or manual control there.
Besides, I shoot manual all the time on my E-PM1. It has a single dial.
MIRRORFREE is the name that should be used instead of mirrorless!!
I really like this concept; it works. However, even though this is far superior branding, it would need to be accompanied by a huge marketing campaign to educate the public as to the category existence and its advantages. At this point none of the mirrorless camera companies have that type of marketing budget.
I don’t blame Panny for doing this; it’s leveraging the fact that most of the public probably doesn’t even know what DSLR really stands for or means, and just associates it with a more serious camera.
Considering the average intellect here . . . You could end up with a store full of knuckleheads demanding their FREE Mirror!
I like it, Panasonic should take your advice and give a tiny little mirror to each buyer with a sign etched into it saying “Mirrors shouldn’t be in cameras in the 21st century”. 🙂
ZING!
I always thought that DSLM (Digital Single Lens Mirrorless) was the best acronym for micro-4/3 cameras. To most people, DSLR just means “good/serious digital camera with different lenses.” (Nor do they understand the evolution in technology and terminology from view camera to viewfinder to rangefinder to twin lens reflex to single lens reflex to digital SLR.) So calling them DSLMs is not only technically accurate but re-inforces the fact that these cameras provide very similar performance as DSLRs but with a few internal components designed differently.
Trouble is there’s a cost to creating a new category…it has to be a groundbreaking new technology to deserve one. Mirrorless cameras aren’t…they’re a variation on the system camera (the DSLR) with a different kind of viewfinder. That’s why they find themselves in a sort of marketing black hole in many cases. Camera stores with “DSLR and Compact” categories, and anyone who’s half way serious clicks “DSLR”.
The trouble with activists is that they think they need to change the world. In this case, marketing an evolutionary technology as revolutionary, we just end up shooting ourselves in the foot. So yeah, call it a DSLR and list “mirrorless” as a feature. No need to be pedantic about it.
The cost to creating a new category is also in the way of huge marketing budgets. The public has to be educated on new product categories, and that takes a huge amount of effort.
Yes, it’s a huge cost in education and marketing. Especially when it’s totally unmerited. We’re literally talking about a DSLR with its viewfinder is implemented electronically. The only reason anyone even thinks it deserves its own category is because the “R” in DSLR happens to stand for “reflex”. The distinction that made the SLR popular in the first place was simply that it allowed through the lens viewing, which every digital camera on the market today allows, except maybe some rangefinders. Today it’s a distinction without a difference.
EVF or OVF should show up somewhere on the specs page. True, there are mirrorless cameras that do go after the compact camera market. Maybe they should be classed as compact system cameras, or some-such? But something like the E-M1 or GH4, call it what it is. They belong in the same category as other pro and enthusiast grade system cameras with similar features and image quality. They’re mirrorless DSLRs.
I’d count the cost of educating people on a whole new product category a total loss. A stupid move, I feel.
I think DSLM is a good compromise. If Panasonic’s offering is no different than the basic models from Canikon, there would be little urge for the uneducated consumer to stray from the pack. At least a title of DSLM evokes the seriousness of the mainstream product while piquing interest based on the differentiation. It is a small window of opportunity for a manufacturer to educate the benefits of a mirrorless camera.
Think about it this way:
– Is the new category targeting a new market? No.
– Does the new category of product do anything new? No.
Then why call it a new category? I know if we’re being pedantic we’d change the R to an M, but the cost of that change is high. Rather than forcing yourself into a position of actually having to educate people, why not focus on the similarities to existing products and make the education very simple: this is just like your DSLR, but it has an EVF.
I understand why you’re saying DSLM would sound similar enough, but it doesn’t. And it’s failed to gain any traction in the market, despite Panasonic’s use of it. If you say mirrorless DSLR, nobody will have to learn new category names, it will show up in searches, websites won’t have to be redesigned, and people looking for a camera meeting the basic specs of a DSLR will find ones with EVF’s along side the ones with traditional optical finders. I think that works out much better for the customer.
Exactly. The term DSLR is used like the term “to Xerox” in the United States. Which means to make a photocopy even if you are not using a photocopier from Xerox (most likely in fact you are not). If this helps Panasonic in rankings against Canon or Nikon (it will certainly help on Amazon) and they get more mind share and sell more cameras it will all have paid off.
Having your name even show up in the rankings is sure to improve sales if people do their research. Out of sight out of mind… This is a good move by Panasonic.
I’d go further to say that the competition between DSLR and mirrorless is ridiculous. Questions like “which is better?” are meaningless because mirrorless and DSLR do the same thing and which is better has little or nothing to do with the mirror.
It fuels this whole “mine is bigger than yours” mentality. Really, if I have a mid-range consumer DSLR and you have a E-M10 or something, we have the same imaging capabilities. We both have viewfinders. We have the same manual controls, the same sorts of lenses are available, etc… Why compete? Viewed as a DSLR, OM-D’s and DMC’s are fantastic cameras. The psychological barrier to selecting a mirrorless camera over a DSLR need not exist at all.
Along the way, the category itself might change to DSLR/DSLM…. instead of having the two separate.
🙂 GH4 rules!
DSLRs sell better than mirrorless. Therefore, marketing a mirrorless camera as a DSLR might boost its sales. I think Panasonic’s reasoning is as simple as that.
It might help eliminate some of the confusion too. “Mirrorless” or “compact system camera” are not established categories and new customers don’t know about them. I don’t think they will ever enter the public consciousness the way “(D)SLR” and “compact camera” have. Inventing new categories for these cameras are probably the wrong way to go.
I’m a big fan of the following categories for mirrorless:
– Mirrorless DSLR for SLR-style models with viewfinders
– Compact System Camera for rangefinder or compact-style mirrorless
I think that would be much less confusing to consumers.
All’s fair in love and war
I don’t think the GH4 will be as popular as the GH3, at least initially. The majority of buyers, including upgraders, are photographers, not videographers. There would need to be a larger IQ or other tech improvement to make it more appealing to those who might want to step up from a lesser model, at that price. For video guys, it’s a no-brainer. A great bargain; at least on paper.I’m guessing that a lot of the pre-orders are tentative and that many are waiting for more reviews and samples before the shipping date and many will cancel their orders. I know that I want one based on the improvements over the GH3 but those are some rather pricey improvements.Not a problem for Pros who can justify it and who will benifit from those improvements but there are far fewer Pros using this system than regular Joes.
I agree with you that the GH4 will be only slightly better than the GH3 for stills, but then I skipped the GH3 because it was only slightly better than my hacked GH2 for video in most cases. The GH4 is going to be quite a jump up from the GH2 in both image quality and video quality, as well as all those connectivity improvements the GH3 made. I think there are many out there like me that have been waiting for this and it’s sales will show it. I think you underestimate the almost cult following the GH series has, especially for it’s video potential. It’s stills potential is now catching up.
I did the same thing.
I upgraded all of our GH2s to GH3s and can tell you it was NOT a minor upgrade. No weird green tints at high isos was a big difference! I pre-ordered my GH4 but will keep the GH3s as great general cameras. I am thrilled to no longer have any GH2s.
I preordered the GH3 and loved it but I was doing a lot of still work at the time so I sold it on ebay for a couple hundred more than I bought it for and bought the Nikon d800. I love m43’s and the GH series so I’ve been waiting for the GH4 which is substantially better than the GH2 in many many ways.
I can understand that move. The GH3 is decent at photos but not so hot in those clutch event situations. Hopefully more focus points helps in that department!
Great conversation, I expected as much. I agree with a good bit of it, but I would have thought that anyone thinking of spending the best part of two thousand dollars on a camera body alone would be quite familiar with what DSLM, DSLR, mirrorless, and such really mean. If they are not, and are lead into purchasing the GH4 just because it is classified as a DSLR, they might be quite unhappy when they find that all their current SLR lenses are not particularly compatible and are no longer even the same focal length.
And if the marketing types are going to call the GH4 a DSLR, just because it looks like one, and they think they can fool people into buying it by doing so, why not the rest of the G series? My G5 LOOKs pretty similar, …….. and it’s black, just like a DSLR. I think Olympus has no choice but to reclassify the OMD family all as DSLRs as well, and maybe even throw in the Stylus 1. They all LOOK like DSLRs! There are probably many others way overdue for reclassification, but I only follow Olympus and Panasonic. 😉
I am joking of course. What they look like should have nothing to do with what they are called. The term DSLR has, until now, told you a lot about the camera right up front. Now we are going to have to dig into the specs to find out if it is really an SUV or a station wagon. Thank you so much Panasonic. So, for now, I will take an EM1 or maybe even an EM10 because I no longer trust your marketing people, and it is going to be quite some time until you come out with IBIS which I want far more than 4 zillion K video.
Gord
If you speak with the average person about cameras. They will call a any camera that looks like a DSLR a DSLR. Panasonic’s decision is sound. Why should they not show up in the same rankings as Canon and Nikon? You are overreacting especially because you are obviously savvy enough not to trust what a marketing department claims and to read a spec. You obviously have a brain — so use it. This change was not made with you in mind.
Anyone who would buy a GH4 and expect it to work with their Canon lenses will at least have more luck than someone who buys a Nikon and expects it to work with their canon lenses. 😛
DSLM is a good category but Panasonic is basically the only company using that term so it doesn’t make very much sense to list under that category for resellers because they would be the only one there. Compact camera’s have a bad rap as being unprofessional so they wouldn’t want to use that.
Many people trying to upgrade from a point and shoot to a “real camera” have heard the term DSLR and associate it with what they want despite not knowing what it stands for. So that’s what they’re going to search for and buy. Why should Canikon get an advantage over the GH3 GH4 just because of a misconception of acronyms?
I have a GH4 on pre-order. After being a camcorder owner for 20 years I was waiting for a DSLM that ticks most of the boxes on my checklist. I am still a little concerned about it not having a global shutter but I have seen a lot of GH3 footage that looked ok. That coupled with the 50% increase in sensor read-rate that Panasonic is claiming may alleviate my concerns.
I am a nature videographer so I am looking to trim down on gear weight. My new kit will be the GH4, Panasonic 12-45mm and 45-175mm and Olympus 35mm macro with 4/3 to m4/3 adapter. Other gear on my list is the Benro S6 head/tripod, Cinevate Duzi slider and Lowepro 400AW backpack. Had to sell off all my old gear to pay for this.
Hopefully we get global shutter and IBIS for the GH5.
Does anyone knows a store in Germany that is accepting pre-orders??
Hot Rod Cameras ships worldwide and delivered a camera to me in Amsterdam for free last September. There’s no camera shop that comes close to that level of service.
Hot Rod Cameras is doing a preorder for the GH4, they are also offering a PL lens adapter discount for pre-order customers. If you call them tell them Elmo sent you! I ordered a Blackmagic cinema camera from Hot Rod and 1 from Adorama last year and Hot Rod got it to me weeks faster. Best shop ever!!
Good to see the GH4 is doing so well in Amazon USA presales. While it may have been #1 at start the last few times I checked it was at #4 and then #6 still very good. Still not bad considering this when compared to DSLRs and only 1 or 2 above it cost over $1000 as rest are bargain sales. Even more surprising when you consider that when all cameras are compared the highest mirrorless model is usually somwhere around #80 while the DSLRs are near the top. Yes most new models like the latest Nikon DF or Sony 7R and EM1 jump to top of hourly ranking and then fall back.
I don’t think the distinction of whether or not the GM4 is a DSLR or not was a Pany decision as I think it is Amazon which determines what category to put it in. I know in the past I have been puzzled why not able to find any G models or EM5 EM1 models shown under mirrorless by Amazon USA only to find they had been put into the DSLR category instead for awhile? At any rate everyone should know DSLR stands for camera with either a optical finder or mirror while others simply associated it with the typical shape with hump of viewfinder in the middle.