Huuu, that was close! Sony “almost” release the first mirrorless Full frame camera! (I don’t count the Leica M9 is a rangefinder camera). What you see here on top is the Sony RX1, the big Full Frame brother of the current RX100. So it’s actually a fixed lens camera with a 35mm f/2.0 Zeiss. But the Sony guys didn’t have the smart idea to make it with an interchangeable mount. For almost $3000 this camera is way too expensive. But I am posting this because I would like to be in the head of the Olympus and Panasonic managers to see their reaction when watching this camera. Would it be worthy to risk to develop and launch a new system with larger sensors?
133 Responses
Had this been a full-frame interchangeable camera…it would’ve definitely been a “game changer”…if that’s something Sony is working towards, then the other camera manufacturers should be prepared…
What about a viewfinder?
OVF and EVF are optional accessories.
How much is the cheaper FF camera right now? Add a good Zeiss FF 35mm f/2 macro lens, and $3000 doesn’t look that high. Even the D600 at the rumored price of $1500 or $1600 with a comparable lens wouldn’t be that far… The question is: how many would spent so much in a camera without viewfinder and a fixed lens? Still, let’s wait of the real price. I’ll buy it at around $2000.
I think this target market will demand a viewfinder (not that I ever use one)to be included at the asking price I also not sure if the demand for full frame is growing especially with a fixed lens…
I think the RX1 will sell reasonably well and might take a bit if a bite out of Leica and Fuji’s pie…
I think Oly and Panny will keep an eye on it and measure market response but I think they already know their future direction and products…
Sony really needs to produce and market lenses instead of thinking the only place to make money is in bodies.
I am POSITIVE this camera will not sell in any significant quantity. No viewfinder and far too expensive. There should also be a new X100 released soon. I think the price is a complete joke.
The only thing we know for sure about the price is that it is imaginary.
Photo Rumors has it at $2700 http://photorumors.com/2012/09/09/sony-rx1-specifications/
That is not that bad considering that the APS-C NEX-7 + Zeiss 24mm f/1.8 goes for what, $2300? For some the FF sensor is worth the difference. And the lens is a smaller made-to-match Zeiss 35mm f/2 macro with aperture ring, that’s another plus. Now, there is the lost of a viewfinder, and that’s what will stop many. Unless they bundle a good add-on viewfinder.
That’s true…though for most, a bigger sensor wont make a difference in their photos.
Price is now updated to $2799
Full frame, but no viewfinder.
I believe this camera is unique… but not in a good way.
+1,000
Full frame, fixed lens P&S all for the low, low price of $2800!
Such a bargain!
Sony has always cranked out oddball products just to see what will fly, or so it seems.
The size of the body great! If only it had interchangeable lenses! And a viewfinder. Who knows what version 2.0 will bring.
Idiotic product IMO
I dont think this is the right way-i never understood the “FullFrame” logic. I mean there where always different film sizes around- and you just choose the one that fits your needs most.
I think that the biggest advantage of Mft is the good compromise between size and picture quality. The sensors getting better every year, and with the OMD the quality is more then good enough for almost everything. Its like in the 1960th when the 35mm film and high quality optics (e.g. from Leica) suddenly started to replace the medium format Rolleiflex as the standart reporter equipment.
Only think that i really miss for Mft is some kind of hybrid optical viewfinder-because in some situations (e.g. brigth sunlight) i would love to switch back to optical vf… maybe after photokina 😉
In what way? Because you can’t use it as a phone?
It’s only worth it if they can introduce it with a fast lens at a sane price.
The Sony RX1 is going to be a perfect match for optical viewfinders. Or even a sportsfinder! I’m excited about the bigger sensor but Tim is right, the bigger sensor just means a bigger lens. The RX1 isn’t as pocketable as a GX1 with the 20mm lens so it’s not quite perfect for street photography. I jotted down some thoughts about how it might work on the street: http://www.londonstreetphoto.org/sony-rx1-full-frame-street-photo-camera/
Good looking product, but it looks a bit big…
Like others, I am unsire how many of these will sell, with the fixed lens that is. Personally I would get the SIGMA Merril for this kind of money (the point and shoot with the 28mm equiv 2.8 lens) for $2000 less.
Now that is just me. equivalent DoF sort of means nothing to me as I am really working within context. However without the SLT mirror it will be interesting to see what sony can do with these new sensors.
Now what I would like to see as a niche product from Olympus as a m43rds version with a 17mm f2 lens on a really nice compact body… Then I wouldnt get the Sigma 🙂 Or just make the lens for m43rds 😀
Ahhh isnt Photokina fun, I am really looking forward to hearing what 43rds has to offer.
Ab
Clearly they are testing the market: “Will rich people buy a fancy camera with the Sony name on it?”
The underlying rationale: Nobody in today’s world has much disposable income except the rich, the super-rich, and the ultra-rich… and they have so much that they can buy basically anything they want. Because of this, they have no reason to buy anything except superpremium luxury goods that will seem prestigious to their (equally rich) friends. Does the Sony brand name have enough cachet to play in this league?
If Sony finds that it does, I would not be surprised to see them take on Leica (although of course they will design their own lens mount and use the Carl Zeiss brand name on the lenses.)
If Sony concludes that its own brand name is not superpremium/ultraluxury enough, well… wasn’t there a rumor from Carl Zeiss promising a “surprise” at Photokina for rangefinder-camera fans?
By the way, if you don’t own a private jet and multiple vacation homes, none of this concerns you — they don’t want you as a customer.
we will see in a week, but I bet this is a sony in the same way that the leica X2 is a panasonic.
I am guessing this a premium compact (like the leica X2) where the body/sensor/electronics are built in japan (sony / panasonic), lens is ‘german’ (zeiss / leica), labeled as premium (zeiss, leica) and only sold through the zeiss/leica channels.
“Nobody in today’s world has much disposable income except the rich, the super-rich, and the ultra-rich… and they have so much that they can buy basically anything they want.”
Speaking anecdotally, I see people (where I live in Australia) on welfare benefits that smoke, gamble and drink to their hearts content yet somehow manage to have a $600 telephone in their pocket. They have disposable income, they just waste it and spend it on shit.
Seems a strange move by Sony to put so much effort into such a tiny market niche, when with only a little more work they could have done interchangeable lenses and had a much larger potential market. A full frame with NEX mount able to us existing NEX and A-mount lenses (with crop and/or adapter) would have found a much larger user base, even if there was only one native mount lens available at introduction.
And if they would made this camera with interchangeable lens mount, what lens beside this 35mm one would they have? This type of camera would require whole new series of lenses (and Sony is short on lenses on all other formats it supports). Oh yes, lens adapters …???
“I don’t count the Leica M9 is a rangefinder camera”
Seriously? It’s the ONLY rangefinder camera on the market.
I think admin meant “I don’t count the M9 as a mirrorless because it’s a rangefinder, which is a different optical technology from mirrorless.”
Ah, I thought he meant “as” instead of “is” though still not sure as people tend to call any expensive non-DSLR camera a rangefinder these days. Even the X-Pro 1 isn’t a rangefinder.
They did it for the ff fanboys lol. I am more than happy with the quality of the em5
Problem is that “almost” part..
Dunno, I have very mixed feelings about this.
“Would it be worthy to risk to develop and launch a new system with larger sensors?”
And start over again from scratch? No, No, a thousand times No! Just keep building the #$!@ system as it is. There’s nothing wrong with the 4/3 sensor size, but O&P still need to fill in some holes. An AF 17mm f/1.x, maybe a 10-ish prime, the soon-to-come 35-100, perhaps a 200mm or 300mm at something faster than f/5.6. P might license O’s wireless flash protocol. O could use some video expertise from P. And if we’re wishing for ponies, they could also agree on a standard for the accessory port.
Same advice to Nikon and the 1 “system”; get your rear in gear and make it a real system! There’s nothing wrong with the sensor size–it fills a useful niche. But they’d sell a lot more if they had a real system instead of the poor assortment that they’ve made so far.
I read it is possible to have full frame sensor in the current NEX body but it would be hard to make a good lens for it because of the very short flange back distance. Even current NEX lens are suffering with distortions and larger than ideal sizes. To me this camera body looks thicker than NEX’s. I think it was Sony’s mistake to design NEX body too thin and rely upon in-body digital correction.
What is all the excitement about a full frame sensor . i never wished i had a wider shot to get the extra telephone pole
If i were a dedicated 35mm lens shooter, i would be very interested in this camera as the non interchangeable concept shouldn’t be a problem for me then. Even the missing evf would be bearable if the lcd is superb like the one on the OM-D (with which i experienced the weird sensation to use the lcd for composing as much as i normally do it with the evf)
i would buy fuji x-e1 with full range of lens with that.
May I be forgiven for asking what the QUALITY of this upcoming huge sensor is?
Why just ask about sensor? Why not ask about quality of lens? Or of controls? etc. You want a review on a not yet officially announced camera?
I think it’s safe to say that, based on other Sony/Zeiss products that this is going to have a pretty damn impressive image quality. it will be interesting to see what Fuji does with the x100 replacement.
But, I’m not sure why admin seems to have a passion for FF mirrorless, when running a m43 blog. One of the big reasons I finally settled on m43s instead of alternatives was the smaller bodies/lens combos.
Anyway, I think this is a beautiful looking camera, but think the lack of a built in vf is a pity. But, not for me, not at that price.
The copper band around the lens base with FULL-FRAME is pretty cheesy.
i want. almost a perfect street camera.
Why not i think it’s a precursor for the things to come. Although i’ll not be able or wanting to plonk that much money for what it’s built for.
You can get an E-M5 with 17mm f/0.95 lens for less than that price, which comes to 34mm f/1.9 equivalent — takes basically the same pictures as this thing — but you get interchangeable lenses and a viewfinder. Yawn.
…all this at much lower image quality.
With a more then 2 stops faster lens, any ‘iso disadvantage’ the e-m5 or similar would have is totaly compensated for, so… nope.
You forget that voigtlander iq is pretty bad @ 0.95 . Not that bad for an extreme aperture but there no way it can compete with a f2 sonnar. And without AF nor focus peaking, you won’t have the same comfort.
This cam is clearly a niche/test product, another expensive technological showcase, don’t waste your time to compare it with more mass market cam, this is not the point.
Well, if the Fuji X-E1 counts as “more mass market cam” slap on the upcoming 23mm f1.4 and there is no advantage to the Sony approach. In fact, without an EVF or OVF and no ability to change lenses (and the suspected cost), I would say the Sony is significantly behind. If there is going to be a FF mirrorless camera (system, it at least has to best “equivalence” to make any sense at all.
That’s fair. Of course, that matters only when you’re having to shoot wide open: the E-M5 does have IS, too.
There’s also the question of how good the Sony will be wide open. My guess is – judging from the size of the lens relative to the sensor – pretty poor, like Fuji X-100 was (and that was only APS-C).
I still don’t get some people saying the Fuji’s are better before anything has been reviewed handled etc. The cost of the Olympus 75mm lense is pretty pricey compared to a Canikon + adaptor… or the cost of a Leica versus a Voigtlander.. and most people don’t bat an eye lid because they know, to a certain extent, you pay for what you get.
This camera may be crap, or it could put the Fuji x100 (and it’s replacement to shame). Right now, we just don’t know. I suspect it’s going to have awesome quality, but time will tell. Still, not for me, in the same way the Fuji x100 wasn’t for me. A camera I’d like to have, but not enough to justify price.
I love the OM-D + Voigt 25 combo, but I’d really be surprised if it can compare to the IQ of this – but, good enough for my needs.
What Olympus or Panasonic could do is make a compact with a M4/3 sensor, similar to Canon G1X but with an EVF. Such a camera could be a real success. But maybe they are afraid it will steal a lot of sales from their regular M4/3 systems?
http://i.imgur.com/aHaTt.jpg
I am not sure the purpose of that image? What does it show? A $3000 FF point and shoot with a fast lens and a FF sensor.
You could just as easily compare it to the EPM1 and 14mm or 17mm lenses. That body both boasts IBIS and the opportunity to use a VF.
Sony has omitted its SS in all its mirrorless to date, imagine if olympus decides to remove the smart port, and the IBIS they could make a TINY m43rds sensor camera. Personally I am glad they dont, the EPM1 is already very small.
Sony have a small body big lens, what do you think all the nex users will feel seeing sony bang out more bodies and few lenses for their system?
Ab
Thanks for the comparision, but that is a Panasonic GX1 without a viewfinder and not a Canon G1X. Though understandably it is easy to mix them up as they have almost the same name!
For me personally, if I wanted a big (= not small and flat) compact with a bigger sensor I would prefer a cheaper camera than RX1 with an EVF and zoom-lens even if it would be a bit bigger and and have a smaller sensor.
If there will be no such M4/3 compact the best alternatives are Fujifilm X-E1 and Sony Nex-6. They may be bigger. But this Sony RX1 is too big for my pockets. And if I anyway need a small bag for the camera the difference in size will not matter.
Give me the GX1 with the EVF, numerous primes and one zoom and it’ll still come under the price of this overpriced point and shoot. Full frame or not, it’s NOT worth the price tag plus tax.
You think Sony couldn’t make this interchangeable? They don’t want to cut into NEX sales. Give them 6 months to a year… The NEX will be an afterthought then. That, or this will become the new NEX with swappable lenses.
that’s f**king expensive
@Admin: You’ll have to consider that lenses for full-frame are quite difficult and expensive when done right, especially if it’s a Zeiss Sonnar, with a great F2 aperture. Not to mention being the first with a compact package like this, and the very fact that it is thìs compact is quite a feat ! This will surely be a memorable collectors item. Expensive, surely is, but unavoidably so.
Personally i’d definitely prefer this over the X100 or X1/X2 for example, because it’s all about sensor size and lens combination, and this, this is one hell of a kit for my kind of use.
Sony is releasing a lot of stuff this season. This is niche product, a toe in the water, to learn a few lessons, then the ICL version comes out, if they want. Like Fuji.
Does the fact it’s posted on this forum tell us something about the upcoming m43 offerings?
Wow . What a beautiful camera ?
I think it’s more direct to compete against Fuji’s incoming X200 & that expensive price really put the camera in a real market test . I believe with that price , you could get X Pro 2 , OMD Pro or the GL ( if still relevant ) .
Let’s see what Pana & Oly will react in this indirect matter .
Fuji is the one need to respond not M4/3 .
I was hoping for something like this since I’m using m43ds. the next step is a FF with interchangeable lens and then I will add this to my gear list 🙂
They will release FF NEX, but only after NEX-6 and this. They spacing themselves.
The hot shoe indicates that a external VF is on the cards
If I’m looking at that pic right, there are a few things a like about this camera:
– aperture ring! My left hand can actually do something else while it’s supporting the lens. (Am I the only person that still holds the camera that way?)
– mechanical on/off switch.
– a screw hole in the shutter button for a cable release
– dedicated exposure compensation wheel. I’m assuming there’d be another wheel somewhere else that would be used for shutter speed. But having said that, I spend most of my time in A-priority mode.
The appearance of this RX1 with rumored Alpha A99, showing that Sony will go to FF after the APS-C. If they keep doing what they do with RX100 they will rise as the big 3 of camera maker along with Canon and Nikon. Just the other day I wish Olympus (or may be also Panasonic) take the hint and create the first compact FF camera. All they have to do in lens line is continuing the OM Zuiko they discontinue ten years ago.
The OM zuikos are all manual focus only (with the exception of some 2 or 3 zooms for the 101 and 707), and not easily upgraded to AF, so no, that approach will not work.
Give it interchangable lens mount and android OS and sony would have smashed the sound barrier…. that obvious but seemingly imposible leap for any camera manufacture to make?!??? Android + big sensor, changable lenses & no mirror…
What are they all waiting for?
Fully electronic shutter be nice too, once they crack that nut 🙂
Possibly they are waiting for an android version that:
– does not just refuse to respond without lag because it decided it had other priorities then takin a picture
– doesn’t randomly kill things when out of resources
– actually manages its resources good enough to prevent fragmentation
– doesn’t require you to carry a backpack full of batteries when away from a charger for more then a few hours.
Apps on camera is a good idea, current android versions are not a good way for getting thete.
In many ways I like this more than NEX camera’s. Looks better, and for me the NEX is ergonomically far from perfect if you want to use legacy glass (especially now more companies are covering their own glass). As probably only a few lenses would be desired (like Fuji X-series), a fixed lens is not that big of a problem. This lens would be great for people travelling around the world (having enough money), but the only thing they had to do is make it weather-sealed. They can add so many things, and demand a high price, but could not weather-seal this little machine (even without interchangable mount)? I’ll stick with MFT for coming years anyway, and will come back when such a camera (weather-sealed) can be marketed for 1500-2000 USD.
it’s not interchangable lens camera but it is experimental project before NEX FF.
Only legitimate complaint is that it is not full system camera. EVF and OVF will come as accessories.
I see this camera as a taste of things to come. 35mm f2.0 roughly $1k so E mount full frame (body only) at $2000 is my expectation.
what’s with those focus markings?!
looks like two settings, macro and non macro
but they didn’t just print macro, cos they want you to think it has real distance markings!
It’s a prestige piece, like a Contax T2 or a Nikon 35Ti. Sony have shown that they can do it, and they’ll get the wealthy to pay for their R&D. Then they’ll take advantage of lower FF sensor production costs and build the FF NEX next year. And everybody else will be watching.
The next year is going to be very, very interesting in this industry.
nice camera (specs), terrible price.
As usual sony always puts out items with great specifications but always manages to mess something small – but crutial up. Lets wait and find out what it is this time.
Poor Leica, they thought they had it hard a few years back? They’re about to have their remains bought out (probably from panny), once their market finishes being gutted.
I would buy one… if it were small and cheap.
Dear Oly… I don’t really want a FF camera, but your cameras don’t do what I want (ok but it does better than the rest). All I want is :
– small in size, smaller than the epl3, I really need it to fit in my pocket.
– 8mp is enough, 10mp more than enough, 12mp ix luxury, 16 is almost silly. Think about it this way, a m43 sensor is 1/4th the size of a FF sensor, give me 1/4th the MP so I can get the same colour depth, dynamic range, noise. I’m only going to scale it down to 2mp for a computer screen anyways…
– if it were rugged like the TG cameras it would be really nice, my e-p1 has skidded across the pavement a few times and been soaked a few times, it still takes good pictures though (but I had to dry it out a few times).
I would much rather than Oly & Pany stay away from full frame — they’re finally starting to put out interesting m4/3 lenses. Please, please, stay focused on that!
Neil- totally agree with you. Pick a niche and do it well. I think this is the problem that happened with 4/3rds when trying to compete with Canikon on their terms. I certainly can see a market for the Sony and Panasonic/Olympus with micro four thirds.
@Raist3d
the niches weren’t there 5-10 years ago, what has happened is that demographics have changed, technology has developed and the internet has matured. Thats why mft is now working and Oly, Panny and Sony have more options/opportunities….
No, not really. Olympus had many chances to make 4/3rds small and they decided to compete against CaniKon instead. Coming out with fast expensive big and heavy zooms (which started to turn out bigger and heavier than the counterparts in the other brands) really was a bad idea.
They should have done smaller high quality slower zooms and cover the fast needs with primes. Notice that’s what they are doing now with m4/3rds. There is zero reason why they coudn’t do that with 4/3rds. 4/3rds is mainly a zoom system with very few prime, while m4/3rds is more of a fast/many prime system now with slower zooms.
@Raist3d
Olympus had high quality slower zooms, the Leica D 25mm F1.4 initially did not sell very well because the demand wasn’t there (I got mine at a bargain price and soon as more people realised how good it was it doubled in price)…
There was very little demand for primes 8-5 years ago, I use to catty remarks from other photographers (canikon heads)for using primes.
Women are more in photography now and have higher disposable incomes…
Video is now important to photographers
Live view technology is fast improving (but thats the way I’ve always shot)
Canikon now has less dominance on the internet…
I could go on…………………..
What will it take for people to get over full frame fetish? This camera would be even bigger and more expensive with an interchangeable mount. Why would you want that when an E-M5 already has such great DR and high ISO performance? I think Sony knows wank value will only sell so many cameras, and that their subframe sensors are more than adequate for people who spend more time shooting with their cameras than talking about them in gearhead forums.
Because the performance of this bigger sensor is still better. EM-5 does not match best APS-C (but it’s certainly pretty good). Depending on the photography you are doing you may want better. What’s wrong with that?
You also get better DOF control in what seems to be an outstanding lens. It would be nice if the price came down a bit though but it is what it is.
small sensor camera still are a better option in fast and furious street shooting
This bigger-sensor-talk is soooo boring! m43-cameras and other small-sensor-cameras (like the Nikon J1) have proven that one can get a more than decent image quality from small sensors; so there’s actually no need for bigger sensors in small cameras. And when I see that the Sony RX1 doesn’t even have a TTL-hotshoe, this makes me really laugh!!!
Not sure why the lack of ttl would make you laugh, but aren’t the 3 small circles on hotshoe possibly for TTL? I think A99 pics had same 3 dots?
The price, although high, really isn’t that bad at all.
Fuji sold a lot of 6×7 fixed-lens rangefinders (with manual focus and no metering) that ran $1500+ more than a decade ago. Then a person had to add film and processing to that.
This is a modern interpretation of the same concept. The lack of a viewfinder is a curious choice, but I bet it will be surprisingly successful. I’m just surprised that it’s Sony, not Fuji, that will be first to market with it.
I gave up 24×36 up for mft a few years ago already,gave up the nicer shallow dof for a more practical compact flexibel system. Everyone who like the extreme fast primes for mft, cant deny they are trying to mimic the 24×36 dof rendering to a certain point.So there is no point in bashing the sensor’s format, but respect it imho.
>Everyone who like the extreme fast primes for mft, cant deny they are trying to mimic the 24×36 dof rendering to a certain point.
The 0.95 lenses, sure… but then again, they never made any sense (AF-ing 35/2 and a used 5D for the price of just one of those lenses). On the other hand, even 35/2 on FF is hardly “fast” now that mirrorless APS-C has f1.4 options. It will take FF *and* f1.4+ in several key focal lengths to make a case for yet another format… that or at least a working m-mount adapter and focus peaking for a poor-rich-man’s M9 (FD lenses like the 85L would finally shine as well).
FF is coming finally back,
43 sensors are the new compact or miniature cameras
This one has the size factor of a GF1, lol
Pretty sure not many doubted whether a FF sensor could fit a small body (and not many want to handle smaller than GF1 anyway). The main question was whether they could make it affordable and release smaller lenses, and I have no reason to believe this is the case in the next years. You enjoy the FF sensor, but watch out, it is not weather-sealed…
don’t need larger sensor. because the senso alway becomes better!
Nö interchangeable lenses? No view finder?
No way !!
Like Fuji did with regard to the X100, they would come up with an interchangeable lens quite soon afterwards,msocthat it would be a silly investment.
Admin, I think you are missing the point of this camera. It’s pricey but you are getting what seems to be a pocketable full frame with a kick ass lens. The lens alone, at that level, speed and brand is very expensive!
This camera probably has outstanding image quality. Not every photographer who knows what they are doing want to change lenses all the time. I bet they will sell quite a few.
As for view finder, you can certainly attach an optical view finder to it.
Fixed lens??.. what a joke.
If then new generation of fuji x100 has got the xpro1 sensor and slightly enhanced lens, what kind of a photographer might prefer this sony? Sorry, sony is not leica, which excludes rich self-image liking people. What else does it offer? Smaller Dof? How many people will it be sitnificant for? High iso? Irrelevant. And x100 has got a viewfinder, which makes the price difference bigger.
Nice try, sony, make it 2000 usd and you might be succesfull. Maybe.
Ps: for landscape and generally kinda tripod work… Sigma dp1 again a better buy…
Nice bunch of assumptions you’ve got there. How about of this can focus and Fuji still can’t? maybe you’re right, the Fuji x100 replacement will be better, and certainly probably better bang for buck… But I still would wait for the reviews before dismissing this one.
Well, sony will be a great camera, no doubts about that. It is just that what extra value do you really get that you need compared to FUJI. AF -yes, this is important. Seems that Fuji has been workin’ on it for sime time now though. We shall see.
Bigger sensor? For what?
My OM-D spits out a ridiculous 16 MegaPixels, and can actually use them. Low-ISO is breathtaking, open lenses available and great for low-DOF shooting.
Full frame is not going to die soon – there’s just too much Pro glas investment – but MFT is growing into the Pro space, as the OM-D and the upcoming GH3 clearly demonstrate. I think Opy & Pana do way better when keeping their focus and fill in the gaps.
Klaus
Not enough professional, it has FULL AUTO mode! No buy! 😀
Is a full manual mode not professional enough for you Kes’? Coupled with +- 3 stops exposure compensation, sounds professional enough to me.
@anonymous
-/+3 ev is not really professional enough and wouldn’t get you to some high contrast shots especially if you are metering for your subject, the Olympus E-5 has -/+5 ev
Joking. See ‘ 😀 ’
Overkill. Both in price and sensor size. Another camera that is more a status symbol than a tool.
What Olympus and Panasonic should learn from recent Sony cameras is that it’s not hard to repackage device internals and make multiple products. Someone might like this one, so he/she would buy it, others will buy A99, FF NEX or full frame camcorder. Being stubbornly tied to only one body shape/camera type can only drive customers away.
This is only the first step and it is a huge one. Its the first digital compact FF. Its gonna be à beauty. And think about the quality of the pictures…… They also gonna be very very very beautiful. Not like the iPhone style M43.
Want to buy GH3 rumors
The bigger sensor, the higher chance of better image quality, the more impressive dimensional look, and 3D separation. This is rule of thumb or Physics 101.
It may be a game change. The trend of mirrorless system is quite obvious now.
The mirrorless world will move towards FF platform in the future 100% surely.
In fact, this is just a sign from Sony, meaning that we will see full-frame NEX sooner or later.
After that, Nikon and Canon will not be able to resist this wave and perhaps revolutionize their FF platform.
@Roy
people abusing thin dof with full frame cameras to obtain the “3D seperation look” often makes the shot looking like it was made out of cut-outs and collaged together (and actually becomes distracting in itself)…
The mirrorless world will not be moving to Full Frame ever, full frame will move to mirrorless…
The last time I had a full frame, fixed focal length camera it cost me $39.95 and was made by Vivitar…. I’m not saying this is a stupid product designed only for those concerned about status and/or style. In fact, I trust it takes remarkable images. All I’m saying is I think the market may be limited for a product like this. At least I hope it will be; I’d like to believe there aren’t that many silly people out there. And not that it matters, but that $40 Vivitar I had had a range finder. Just sayin’.
if price isnt a issue here,awesome concept,but like the old saying~~~~NO VIEWFINDER NO SALE!!!!!!!~~~~
It’s not too expensive. Compared to a equal priced Leica 35mm f2 lens you get the attached camera for free…
next step: sony/zeiss ikon B-)
A lot of talk here is going on here about an FF Nex, no one has however considered whether the Nex lenses will give adequate coverage to an FF sensor, or will they all have dreadfull edge performance, if there’s any signs of vignetting on an existing body imagine it on an FF body. This would almost certainly mean a full rethink for Sony on mount compatibility or like Canikon a range of lenses which will work on one body but not the other. Now with the pawltry amount of lenses currently available for Nex, I see this going nowhere unless they abandon the current Nex and concentrate on a new line, which will almost certainly mean added cost. The same applies to Panna and Oly if they try the same with u43 bodies.
My two penneth on this possibility.
Why mirrorless? It’s only a compact camera.
So, let me get this right.
State of the art FF Sony sensor with a magnificent Zeiss lens in a size of GX1.
Yes, what a terrible camera.
It is shame that one can not re-use the magnificent lens on the RX1 on other cameras.
While cameras are significantly improved every two years, great lenses stay great forever.
But let’s wait for reviews and real world test before dissing it.
I saw many comments similar to the ones posted here when the Fuji X-100 leaked.
Not until real reviews and usage did we understand how great it was and it became a commercial success.
Well, if it was 2x the RX100 at 1299 or 3x at 1899 then maybe, but definitely not at 4x. Its great that Sony is going all out, but in which direction? It seems they are trying to test all the waters all over the place just to grab in those dollars any which way it can. And where are those E-mount lenses for the new Nex 5R and 6? Well, at least its not like Canon’s mirrorless offering, news came as fast as it left. I don’t even see it mentioned anywhere else?…
no viewfinder? no good! although tempting !
Don’t get the hate – if its too expensive then you’re not the target customer. If you don’t need FF or 24mp then you’re not the customer. If you’re happy with the limited DR and IQ you’re getting from your m43 camera, then you’re not the target customer. This is the next generation of Sony sensors – its a FF version of the amazing EM5 sensor, which is stomping every APS-c sensor on the market right now. The IQ from this should be absolutely stunning since – like the X100 – the lens is built for this camera, not for everything built in the last 20 years with a particular mount.
I own the EM5, can’t wait for Son’y new FF offerings as I’ll be getting one. M43 is not quite there for most pros as it lacks fast zooms. The Panny 12-35 is still not as sharp as the Zeiss 24-70, and you don’t get the FF DR or IQ.
Remember when people said nobody would pay $1200 for a fixed lens APS-c camera? Then Steve Huff and Zack Arias called it the greatest camera ever built and suddenly the X100 was a “real photographers” camera that had soul. Really a computer with a lens has soul? Idiots. But history does repeat itself, the reviews will be hilarious…
35mm is my favorite focal length, I’m selling my X100, I want one.
This isn’t really competition to the M4/3 system.
it’s targetting to the niche, and high-margin market.
exciting news! if the reviews and samples are good, i would be tempted to get one for my wife who never take her 25mm1.4 off the gx1, judging from the photos they are about the same size. about the fixed lens… x100 is the most preferred camera that i take with me on daily basis and travel (with two kids), so there is definitely a market for fixed lens cameras. its pricy, but not necessary targeting at the riches, there are always people who are willing to make compromises on other things in their lives to fulfill their hobbies and interests.
If their goal was to make a nice overpriced little camera toy for the rich, then it looks like they got it about right.
+1
Haha! I was sooo close to wasting my money on a m43 camera.. But now my dream finally has come true. A small fixed lens FF compact. Hello Sony, goodbye every other camera-manufacturer.
you are getting a fixed lens.You CANNOT compare this lens to a lens that one could use for 60 years on various cameras. This lens dies when the camera dies.
I don’t think that any native m43 lens will be usable 60 years either…. except for the purely mechanical Samyangs etc.
Fixed lens cameras in the 2500-3000 dollar price range however have never been commonplace, regardless of how good they were.
That said, if 35mm field of view is what you use all the time, this is an expensive yet very attractive option from the looks of it.
what “actual focus scale”?? you mean that switch between macro and normal focus? you call that “actual focus scale”? such a joke
@camerageek
a Leica D Summilux 25mm f1.4 works fine on most micro four thirds bodies and all Four thirds bodies , has an aperture ring and a distance scale, it can be had for about $700/£400
That may be true, but then you’re looking at a ~50mm/f2.8 lens and its still a m43 sensor, this is basically a FF version of the already excellent EM5 sensor – which means better DR, IQ and tonal gradation – a look m43 can’t replicate.
Its apples and oranges.
@chris
aperture stays the same.
Pretty sure Dynamic Range of the E-M5 is good for nearly all needs ie printing at least upto 3 meters wide sooc,all types of normal sized screens viewed from normal distances, IQ and tonal graduation is the same argument.
The only benefit in real world use of full frame in real world use is much abused ultra thin dof and the ability to abuse images more ie “rescue” poorly exposed/white balanced/framed images….
I’m talking DOF, not light gathering, a F1.4 lens on a M43 camera does not give you the same DOF that it would on a FF, its effectively a F2.8 lens when compared to FF and the FOV of a 25mm lens is 50mm on the EM5. Just because the EM5 meets your needs, doesn’t mean it meets everyone’s needs. The FF sensor will show more detail and improve upon the EM5’s already great shadow recovery capabilities. For me, more is better.
Once you get above 1600, the EM5 really loses ground to FF cameras in terms of noise and detail. Compare it to the 5d3 and its absolutely rubbish at 3200 and 6400. I expect the new Sony sensor to crush the 5d3’s — Sony just seems to be a generation ahead of everyone else right now. To me this makes a great compliment to the A99 as there’s really no great 35 in the Sony lens lineup. I’m going to pre-order both when available.
I love it when people use poor technique as a way to bash FF vs M43. The EM5 is great, but the FF will still resolve more detail. Use whatever tools you’re comfortable with, just don’t tell me a FF sensor – that’s more than 3x the size of a m43 using the same technology (since the new FF is undoubtedly using every trick Sony has) – is not capable of producing superior IQ and DR.
Please.
DOF depends on the final presentation, because things within the dof must look reasonably in focus on that final presentation.
For identical print size, 4/3 needs more magnification. Consequently, it requires a smaller coc for the same final result. Consequently, a 25/1.4 on 4/3 gives a more shallow dof then a 50/2.8 on a 135 format sensor.
Additionaly this all depends on final presentation size and viewing distance.
Last but not least, a 50/2.8 gives a certain size coc at a given projection distance, and that has totally zero relation to sensor size.
You’re overthinking and coming out with incorrect info.
The 50mm f2.8 on FF does have the same dof and image as 25mm f1.4 on m43.
There’s been numerous discussions and sample images. if you’re trying to liken coc to pixel size, don’t. Otherwise you’d have the notion that more pixels gives a shallower dof.
Also keep in mind that while a 50 is a 50 no matter what camera it’s on, composition isn’t constant. In comparing like compositions, you must use proportional focal length/aperture with cropfactor.
No, I’m not at all overthinking, I’m taking into account what DOF really is, a perception of the viewer of the final presentation, not something absolute, and not something that can be calculated independently of considering the viewing conditions, and even then the calculation is only an indication.
All DOF calculators make an assumption about the size of the coc for something to be considered ‘in focus’, based on a standard magnification, print size and viewing distance. If one or more of those 3 changes, the required coc also changes. Additionally, the required coc also somewhat changes based on the viewer.
Then there is an additional issue that the perception of what is in focus also depends on the peak sharpness of the image, something that confused the hell out of a guy known as Dalmeyer somewhere in the late 1800s, he thought he had invented ‘diffusion of focus’ (the ability to spread the ‘in focus’ area wider).
It is also something that was used a lot by graphics artists for creating a whole variety of effects, including pictures that show something entirely different based on viewing distance. The ‘far away’ picture only shows because at longer distance, we don’t see all the small details, and simply require less sharpness to consider something ‘sharp’.
This is also used extensively when printing billboards for example.
This all has nothing to do with overthinking things, but with understanding a bit more about how humans perceive an image.
“But the Sony guys didn’t have the smart idea to make it with an interchangeable mount.”? If the poster is smart enough maybe he can work for Sony. Who the hell is this guy to say who’s smart and dumb. Stop whinning. I bet this guy bought an iphone 4s for $900 in a heart beat.
When the lens is not changable, the sensor size might not the biggest issue but the lens. If m43 (whatever Panasonic or Olympus) wants to take a risk, I prefer that they make a 17mm F1.2 fixed lens P&S. The lens is collapsible when poweroff. No joking, the size can be as small as LX7. Now Sony RX1 is quite embarrassing because it is not able to put into our pocket. Contax used to make the sexy T series that makes the RX1 look so big by comparison.
Hello Sony. (Goodbye Leica.)
introducing, “the MEGA 4/3 system!”
Well done for pointing out what this actually costs. If you look at what a Leica M9 and the ‘right’ 35mm would cost you, this starts to look like discount brand bargain shopping.
As to a fixed lens: I believe if you just work one focal length, you get good at that one focal length, you say it costs too much, but what’s you’re bag of glass cost you?
I also don’t know many photographers who work the same lens for decades. That’s the theory,the justification, but they back in the shop, cash in hand with every new generation canikon pump out.
Sony are just putting it out there, and I’m glad, because it’ll trickle down and put the cat amongst the pigeons, we’ll all get the chance to buy this tech, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but…