Carl Garrarard from Alphamountworld (Click here) posted his final word about the Sony A77. The real problem he has with the new 24 megapixel sensor is that “while there is no doubt that specification will please some photographers greatly, I feel the vast majority would have been happier with 14-18mp where the A77 could have performed better as an overall-do it all kind of camera. I simply think the megapixel race has ended, and there’s only so much resolution one needs on an APS-C DSLR that is practical to use day in and day out for multiple photographic tasks.”
Carl (like me) would have been happy with less Megapixels or with a new pixel binning function that would have added an option to shot with less Megapixels and higher ISO performance when needed.
And than there is that Sony JPEG engine which has to be improved: “First of all I feel way too much noise reduction is being done on the Jpegs at ALL ISO values, which robs detail in every 24mp file you save. Then why have 24 megapixels you ask? Good question. ”
But a part of that the A77 proves to be an excellent camera if you shoot RAW and low ISO: “If you are going to shoot Raw only and don’t mind shooting at ISO 1,600 and under (or just normally don’t) then the A77 is a fine photographic instrument able to reach resolution levels no other APS-C DSLR or DSLT has been able to reach yet. For gigantic color rich prints with lots of dynamic range, the A77 is a fantastic tool“.
Editor’s note: I fully agree with Carl. I can recommend this camera to anyone shooting RAW and low ISO images (like landscapes). And of course if you shoot video than the A77 is almost a must have camera!
And here is the A77 full link list to check where it is in Stock: [shopcountry 8461].
150 Responses
Quit it… ive been shooting shows with my A77 and I work from iso 1600 to 5000 and the camera performs well… Good lord this is getting old
+1
I’d love to read some other ‘news’ on here!
+2
How about some Alpha lens rumors?
That’s because you aren’t a geek who insists on staring at 100% crops. 😀
But sony have trouble to ship their shipment 🙁 sony twice hit by water disasters -massive flood in Thailand and tsunami in Japan.
That’s a totally brain-dead piece from CGarrard.
The same 24Mp in Nex7 easily produce the lowest noise and highest res of all APSC.
Sony simply dumbed the sensor down just to have lower power consumption and avoid overheating. Much along the same lines they did with the a35 vs a55. Lots of ugly electronic read noise that’s impossible to clean in the shadows at any ISO with a77.
Not quite, the 16mp nex-5n has the lowest noise which proves his point totally. The only brain dead one around here appears to be you.
fd, you should behave your ignorant self. And then you may even see which sensor is cleaner – http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=5831&start=15
So if you reduce the 24mp file to 16mp it has slightly worse noise and poor blacks at high iso, what’s your point? If you have to scale the 24mp file down just to get similar noise levels then what’s the point in having 24mp to start with?
So, fd, you can’t even read? Try again and read that link.
impossible for 16mp to have lower noise than 24mp at same sensor quality. People who think that don’t know what ISO is or are simply too ignorant to trust. Having more pixels in a given area means less noise overall.
very good link everyone should see..
The sensor uses a Bayer mosaic, so it has only 2000×3000 pixels in the red channel. This is well below what 35mm Kodachrome was delivering decades ago – fine grain 35mm is more like 4000×5000 pixels equivalent. It is even further below the medium format film quality that would be normal for portrait, wedding or industrial work.
It is not enough to give good rendering of skin texture.
So, no, “24 Megapixels” is not nearly enough pixels.
There may well be too much noise in the shadows, but that is a different question.
No, a 24 Megapixel Sensor has 24 million red dots as well as 24 Million blue dots and 48 million green dots, cause every Pixel as 4 dots 1 red 2 green and 1 blue
Unfortunately you are mistaken. It has 24 million pixels (or more realistically, 4000×6000 pixels)of which half are green channel, a quarter red and a quarter blue.
Don Cox, 24megapixels on a77 is equivalent pixels number as stated in Sony website. That means there are 24 millions of red pixels, 24 millions of blue pixels and 48 millions of green pixels.
As anyone who has shot with both high-end digital and medium format film cameras can tell you, it only takes about 16MP with a top lens to exceed the resolving power of roll film. At 24MP you’re well above that. I get far superior 13″x19″ prints from my 24MP Sony a850 and Zeiss lenses than I ever could with my Nikon film cameras and state-of-the-art enlarging equipment. The main limiting factor on 35MM-sized digital cameras is the optics they’re paired with. Most of them can’t approach a good medium format lens in terms of resolving power and contrast. Here’s a good article on the subject: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/shootout.shtml
I agree that 24 megapixels is too much for many, but the camera is still capable of doing great stuff. Perhaps Sony will bring a new, lower model with similar performance. I thought the A65 is going to have 16 megapixels, as both Canon and Nikon competitors have that, but hey, Sony still has a lot to do in the DSLR world. At least they’re pushing the limits and introducing new technologies (or making them more popular than previous “inventors”) 🙂
I shoot RAW and mostly 800 or below. With a f1.4 or f2.8 lens that covers most situations. It is nice to be able to go to 1600 with no real problems, but I rarely go there. And I do a lot of video – especially interviews and educational stuff. And I do love my a77. The manual videomode is really really good – with a good lens I am able to do really great work. And no – the camera do not have too many MP’s. The case is that the noise is very visible at 100% magnification – but at 24mps no print or website is showing 100%. I am very impressed of this camera and have not regretted my early purchase. I have a a55 which is now my secondary camera – and a A700 as my backup for events.
This video (yes it is in danish) has been done with a a77 + a55 combi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEFX00kQkOg
Very high quality video. A very natural “you-are-there” look.
It is also completely unprocessed (it is for a photography-q&a-show that I am doing). I really like the ability to set exposure and the camera basically leaves it up to me. That was my biggest caveat with the a55
I shoot raw with decently fast glass most times myself. I rarely ever go over ISO1600. So I really don’t see what the problem is. Besides, the NEX-7 (I’ll refer to it since that’s what I’ve ordered), has perfectly usable ISO up to 6400. Since 99% of my shots can be bad under ISO1600 I’d rather have the extra resolution personally. That said, I would have also been fine with an 18mp sensor.
Agree – 18mp would have been fine. But now that I got 24mp I dont want to complain about it. It is still a great camera
Seems like the A77 does different kinds of JPG NR depending on whether it is in continuous mode or single shot mode. I found the effect shooting at xFine ISO 6400. Will be testing if it applies to other ISOs/conditions later on 🙂
So what? Processing is resource-consuming, time is limited – so processing is simpler for faster results.
But these days the JPEGs are rather irrelevant, anyway. More so for for the higher-end cams.
There are some times when I just shoot for fun, like for concerts where I take many hundreds of pics and have no wish to process them further.
There is noticeable IQ difference there, and it means that I’d rather shoot single frame for better out-of-camera jpegs. I don’t think any other cam does different NR algorithms this way.
I really do think that a lot of the problems people are having with noise is simply because people do not know how to work the camera (and they are clinically obsessed with high ISO noise). Expose for the highlights. Expose for the highlights. Expose for the highlights. Expose for the highlights. Expose for the highlights. Expose for the highlights. Expose for the highlights. Expose for the highlights. There is a lot less visible noise in highlight than in shadows – so do less shadow. Shoot in manual or use exposure compensation. Dont complain that you have bought a hammer that is not a hacksaw. This is a tool – use it.
Are pixelpeepers actually photographers? Or just people who like cameras and love to watch testphotos at 100% resolution?
Yep, pixel peepers is like camera gear geeks rather than a real passionate photographers… I have seen a lot of people like this who have very good gears but took point-and shot-styled photos…
I’m not obsessed with the hi-ISO noise, I just hate it because I’m not blind.
But high ISO is not a problem as there’s hardly any production-quality shooting ever happening at high ISO, you get reportage-quality stuff there at best.
It’s the impossibility to get the clean shadow detail raised from that garbage raw data the 77 produces.
And, btw, ‘expose for highlights’ really means to never blow them, so your midtones have a great chance to underexpose in a high-DR scene.
I did not expect to get into a fight about the term “expose for the highlights”. So what I could say was “expose for the right” meaning: make sure that your histogram leans towards the right – and then process the exposure in post. It creates less noise.
I dont see any reason to take this any further. I am too fed up to bother. I like my A77 – and I am using it daily. It is a great tool, but I do not expect it to do the impossible. That part is up to me.
TimberWolf, but then not so many cams sport 24Mp frames to process at 8-12fps…
One thing I really want to complain about the A77, the overall operation is quite sluggish… Maybe I need a faster card, but then compared to my A850, even a three year old A300, the A77 is very slow in some part of the operation.
For some reason, even when entering the menu, you will see each UI elements load up one group at a time, even when entering sub menu, your preview image can be seen for a brief moment, as if it is like layers in PS. Sometimes when power up, I can see a brief moment of alpha logo… weird… Switching from LCD to EVF is just that a bit slow…
I think Sony really need to optimized their firmware for smoother operation, because what is the point for a fast camera to have slow operation response.
I will agree on that. It is a bit sluggish. Not something that has annoyed me much, but it is just not “good enough”. And that Sony has not made it possible to turn off auto-gain for the microphone is just … stupid. I am irritated by that on a weekly basis. But I am looking forward to new firmware to fix that.
But one surprising thing for me is that I have found the LCD to be of great value. I fold the screen inwards – and use the LCD to check settings. Makes it a lot easier for me to stay “in the zone”.
I agree with this one.. it’s not just a problem turning it on, but also waking it up after it goes to sleep due to inactivity.. that’s where it is REALLY annoying. I grab the camera that is already on from its position hanging on my strap and have to wait for it to go through the motions of coming back to life, watching the interface load up one piece at a time.
AND, it’s not just that it is sluggish, but it misses control dial clicks sometimes.. i.e. I will spin the dial 3 clicks and maybe 1 in 5 times I do that, it will only register 2 of the clicks. It seems especially bad on the exposure compensation setting (I have one of the dials configured for full time exp comp). Does this happen for anyone else? Oh and it’s not a bad control dial because if I switch which dial is exp comp, it gets equally as bad on the other one. I could probably learn to deal with the sluggish updating of the displays if the control dials were actually reliable. But since they aren’t, I have to spin the dials, wait for the sluggish interface to update, then verify that it actually changed the setting the proper amount.
REALLY want to like this camera since I was madly in love with my A55 and don’t want to switch brands (and what would I switch to now that I’m used to SLT tech advantages??), but they’ve got some fixing to do 🙁
Given optimal conditions, the 77 is capable of quite stunning captures. More often though, results would be just passable or outright poor if shooting conditions are really constrained. And that’s by design, not by some fundamental physical limitations.
‘Expose to the right’ was unnecessary for quite some time already. Now with the logarithmic signal encoding it’s outright counterproductive. The higher values digital levels represent, the wider they are spaced; so putting most of your histo there while not even blowing highlights is reducing precision of AD conversion quite drastically. With the 77 one must try and put as much histo data as possible around 18% level.
My guess, all these complaints would have been addressed if Sony chose to use a bigger custom battery they promised with this camera so it could accomdate the hungry processor and all time live view
Battery works fine. I get plenty of shots and pic reveiws and I’m greatful I can use the batteries I have on hand instead of having to buy new ones. Very strange statement by the way.
same here, I get plenty of shots per charge and rarely use more than one battery per photo session. Some people on here have speculated that the IQ would improve if the sensor was given more juice, if that is the case then I’d gladly sacrifice a battery change or two in a day to see what the sensor is really capable of. Something is definitely wrong though, ever since I had my A77 I get the continual feeling that its not firing on all cylinders, something is holding it back. Still a good camera though and an even better one when they get the firmware sorted and optimized. Andrea, any more word on the V2.0 firmware?
A77 is an iPhone 1 of a camera, while great and new, but needs more development and research. I’ll pass. Thank you
This is not exactly the first camera from Sony/Minolta – so the comparison to iPhone 1 is rather strange and mostly polemic. That you do not want to buy the camera – that is your choice. And probably the right decision since your own decision is always the right one.
Carl is a great guy and an experienced viewer of the photographic hardware and the A-mount in general. Having said this, he is not always totally correct.
It may be correct that this “new” 24MP sensor does not live up to the an image quality per MP as let’s say one of the best 16 to 18 MP sensor currently in use, but that doesn’t mean that higher mega pixels isn’t a good thing. Most of us remember the same was being said about computer processer speed or memory in personal computers.
Bill Gates once said that” nobody would ever need more than 640kb of memory” in a personal computer.
No, more sensor useable resolution is good, and if more mega pixels are part of sensor development I expect that soon sensor designers and engineers will give photographers high resolution across all ISO levels and useable ISO settings above the current 1600-3200 most of us except.
Other posters above in this thread have explained the problem with this sensor way better than I, but I can say that I believe that making a blanket statement that the mega pixel race is now over is not correct, it has only hit a bump and will soon be back in the race.
For most of us, the current state of the art is just fine and far better than traditional output devices like print can take advantage of. In the long run, it will be optics that prove to be limiting factor in producing images not sensor development. It’s to soon to anounce the end of higher mega pixels, let’s see what happens this year with Nikon and Canon and next year with Sony’s full frame cameras.
Any news about the A77 2.0 firmware?
So far, all tests are based on 1.03 fw,
which is a fw announced to be outdated soon.
Best regards
Agreed
The article should read “Average guy, with average photography, writes another average article with NO expertise to back it up”!
Now that would be much more accurate.
He’s a nice guy, but nothing more than a fan of Sony technology. He has no credit to being a good photographer, nor has he made a real impact in his Sony world.
“The article should read “Average guy, with average photography, writes another average article with NO expertise to back it up”!”
Now that would be much more inaccurate.
“He’s a nice guy, but nothing more than a fan of Sony technology. ”
You are lost, is that why he gave the K5 “DSLR of the Decade” because he’s a Sony fan?
He’s written for 4 different sites now, you are stuck in 2007, when that statement might have been true. He’s also an accomplished local photographer who sells his artwork in local photo shows etc too. You should read, investigate, before you attempt to discredit someone with trash talk.
Although I don’t agree with everything Carl says, he nailed this review. I won’t be getting an A77- my initial fears about its sensor and unfinished design have manifested themselves. At least he’s honest and doesn’t sugar coat so he can get corporate favors like other sites do.
Guess you hate honesty.
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Again, my point is proven. He sells his work at local art shows. Thus, does not make him a professional photographer nor give him any more credibility than Ken Rockwell.
I am not stuck in 2007, nor am I trying to bash the guy.
My point was merely that an average joe guy who likes photography did a review on the A77.
When the guy gets hired for National Geographic or something then his reviews will hold more weight, thus be an important deciding factor for the masses.
If Ansel Adams were alive today and told me about the A77, I would listen, but C.Garrad the guy selling snap shots, I think I’ll pass.
PS. I use a Nikon :p
But love my old A700
Most of the top reviewers on the net don’t make NAT GEO or “something”. Top photographers don’t have time to review cameras, nor do many of them even care too- they are too busy shooting if you haven’t noticed.
A professional photographer is a photographer that makes money through contract work or selling photography, my understanding is that he does both. You’ve proven nothing.
And while you are trying to discredit him (for your own personal benefit) at least stick to the points he raised and debate those instead of attacking him personally? Funny that you are not talking about the points raised in the article and instead going for the personal attack.
People like you make me sick.
end of line
“too many pixels” = “I don’t understand the science of photography”.
People who spread anti-science make me sick.
Actually, MCP, I pointed out it was not an attack,I said he was “a nice guy”.
Pro’s review lots of equipment, guess you havent read too many photo mags, or been to many photo shows where they not only discuss their work, but also their equip. I guess you never saw any of the videos of pro’s discussing new photo equip after a big announcement for Nikon & Canon (Chase Jarvis & Vincent Laforet . When you open up to other cameras out their, you’ll see you couldnt be more wrong with your statements.
Also, thanks for the lesson about how pros make their money.
I raised the point the a person shooting photos in their backyard has little creditiblity of a cameras full potential, compared to the person who takes the camera out on field trips, and test it in very different situations.
It was a general staement about who was reviewing it, and not to put too much weight in it. If I want to read an article about a Sony camera that I truely feel has merit, I will real it from David Kilpatrick on his website http://www.photoclubalpha.com. He has decades of real world experience, sells a lot of his work, and gives much more credited insight to a review.
Peace Out Meathead!
Case close.
At this point, having owned an A77 for as month or so, I think he’s possibly correct and certainly fair. But, I wouldn’t consider this “finished” firmware so it’ll be interesting to see what happens with future updates.
Yes– when is the A77 2.0 firmware update coming, will it fix
any of the jpeg issues?
Most of the top reviewers on the net don’t make NAT GEO or “something”. Top photographers don’t have time to review cameras, nor do many of them even care too- they are too busy shooting if you haven’t noticed.
A professional photographer is a photographer that makes money through contract work or selling photography, my understanding is that he does both. You’ve proven nothing.
And while you are trying to discredit him (for your own personal benefit) at least stick to the points he raised and debate those instead of attacking him personally? Funny that you are not talking about the points raised in the article and instead going for the personal attack.
People like you make me sick.
end of line
People who post the same irrelevant crap twice on one thread make me sick.
Get over yourself.
I have to agree with the article. How many consumers print out anything higher than 5×7 or the occasional 8×10? If you need the detail and the resolution then go full frame because at that point you’re probably a pro anyways. Stop the mp war and start developing new sensor technology. I think even soccer moms stopped giving a crap about megapixels. If they did then p&s cameras would not be selling.
You don’t understand. Assuming you only print at 8×7 you get better quality at lower noise with 24mp than with 16mp.
More megapixels means lower noise at higher ISOs AT OUTPUT RESOLUTION.
I don’t understand or, yet again, a SAM reader misunderstood a comment from another reader. Big surprise. Did I mention ISO? No. Basically, the Nikon V1 is a great example of what I’m talking about. Sure Nikon is getting crapped on for sensor size and whatnot BUT they offer great quality pics with a lot of great innovation – not a 60mp compact interchangeable that doesn’t do anything different from it’s competitors. That’s why I bought an a55. Sure I’d love to see the 5N version of that sensor in an a77 body but that, unfortunately, won’t happen.
You make some terribly flawed points. P&S cameras sell because they are under $200. What the hell does an entirely different market’s spending margin have to do with sensor technology??!
Professionals need both fullframe AND resolution, for studio and commercial work, for prints bigger than your house, for cropping, for LOWER NOISE.
+1 Bill, whats with the plague of morons on this site???
Are you serious? You can’t be serious. I swear, everyone on this site is illiterate or just trying to piss others off. You’re probably Solo because you only listen to yourself. I’m not talking about price point – I’m talking about the demand for top quality print resolution. So are you saying the majority of people that buy an a77 are printing 11×17 posters or higher on a regular basis for business??? If so, they are obviously making money from their work so move onto full frame. That’s who it’s for. The 2% that do pro wildlife crap can afford the 500mm+ lens for their project. stfu
A lot of people who frequent Sony forums are rabid defenders of anything they do, it’s almost like an organized propaganda front that attempts to squash any critical comments about Sony’s photographic products.
They go after people personally without care to accuracy or validity in their statements, they misquote on purpose, twist words, twist the truth, attack sensibility – all with the goal of making the Sony product look better.
If it isn’t organized propaganda, it’s the worlds most rabid fans that somehow fall into concert with one another. Example after example of the same folks (that after finally getting way too much attention for the negativity they spew, often change their online persona/name) defending Sony over and over again here, DPR, or any big SONY forum. You’ll see them, like an organized team trying to persuade onlookers to ignore the facts and just shoot.
The great thing? It isn’t working. A flaw is a flaw, is a flaw. No amount of words can change that fact. If the A77 sucks, it will not sell, period. Thats one good trait people still have, they do guard their money tight.
The A77, is a good camera, that had 4 years to be exceptional, it fell short like just about any other DSLR/DSLT Sony has come out with. Some will be really happy, but the fact that people are already starting to sell them used is a MAJOR problem.
end of line.
Can someone explain to me what is in those shadows that is so important? Sometimes it is impossible to get the perfect photograph because, well you just can’t. That’s why we have HDR, Photoshop, etc. to make the impossible possible.
And I would like to remind everyone that technically the A65/77 are not “professional” cameras. That is why they do not sell for 2, 4, or 6 thousand American dollars. If I can get fantastic images at ISO 100-1600 on my A65 which I paid less than $1000 for, I am elated. And I can do video.
High MP is important when you crop. With my 14MP camera I made some crops and had 1500x900px left. For printing on A4 this is just on the limit. With a 24MP sensor I would have had more pixels left.
Actually any camera can be professional, the question is are you? The latest cameras from all manufactures are very advanced tools in the hands of a professional they can produce great results, I guarantee that if you took even a P&S and had that image printed along side the higher end “professional camera” you would be hard pressed to see a huge difference. The industry is the culprit in this labeling for good reason.. Every dim wit with a dslr would then think they are pro and run a muck with the profession..
Cameras are tools waiting for your vision to awaken the image!!
My 2 Cents
Kevin
+1
Great comment Kevin.
+ 2
your gear does not make your images.
you do.
Any news about firmware 2.0 ? and what can we expect about ???
+3
As wedding photographers we want great photos. The camera is just the tool that the great photographer uses. What really makes great wedding photos is the editing of the work that a professional photographer did with his/her tool 😀
Yes !! hope jpegs will be improved !!
and, as the nex-7 doesn’t have “super fine” jpeg mode, will they be worst than A77 ones ???
Dunno, if mpix are real problem. If you want cleaner photos, you can always downsize to 12 mpix or less (anyway, how many ppl really print 100% 24 mpix?).
Problem is that A77 is underpowered from HW side of things. Everything lags (slightly, but does). I guess that it simply needs more powerfull CPU or more optimized FW (hopefully). And what really lacks is buffer, sure it has superb FPS, but its more like burst of photos and wait a minute.. than constant high FPS.
I think that photo quality is pretty good, on par with A900 (ok maybe bit worse, but thats probably cause SLT technology, NEX 7 will be better).
This buffer argument is also over done. A Nikon D7000 has a smaller buffer in every way but nobody complains. The Canon 7D can do 15 raw frames at 8 fps A77 can do 13 at either 12 or 8 not much difference really. The whole idea is to do a short burst to get the perfect timing. If you can not adjust your timing to within a second you need to improve your techneek not your camera. Constant high speed would fill your mem card in minutes with photos you don’t want (except 1 or 2)If you need a long run of action I suspect you should use the Video mode which is excellent. I have personally only hit buffer limit when testing mem cards and this showed the A77 empties its buffer pretty quick if given 45M/s + memory.
Thats why pro cameras like 1DsMK4 have such huge buffer, cause.. we dont need it, right? Neither pros. 😀
Sure its about timing, but having big buffer helps a lot. And I certainly hoped that cause its “top-of-the-line” camera, that it will be bit better equiped. Its not like that memory chips are too expensive. It could have 4-8GB buffer without problems..
So a camera costing 4 x as much can manage 2.8s at 16MP 10fps this would be 1.8s at 24MP compared to 1.5s at8fps on A77 so actual buffer size is not that much bigger. I recently paid 10x the cost of my old memory card for one 5x faster. buffer empties 1s of photos in 8 sec so buffer memory is approx 8 times faster than fastest card memory. You are in cloud cuckoo land if you think buffer memory is not expensive.
I guess you dont know which kind memory is inside those things, well its almost same as every computer in this world. Just good old ram, nothing more.
Its not expensive, they just dont want it to be “the best”, cause they are saving that for A99. Same as Canon is doing, saving best for 1D/s.
It could been better, they just didnt want to..
It’s also about the processing to handle that throughput, and the card speed to write it. If it was just a matter of adding $40 of RAM, they would have done it
Sure, a larger buffer would have been nice, especially for the 12fps mode, but it’s actually very similar to the 7D. See timings below with 90MB/s cards in both:
12 fps jpeg fine test
7D: N/A
A77: 19 frames, 4.4 seconds to clear
12 fps RAW test
7D: N/A
A77: 14 frames, 8 seconds to clear
12 fps RAW+jpeg test
7D: N/A
A77: 13 frames, 9.7 seconds to clear
8 fps jpeg fine test
7D: 22 frames, 6 seconds to clear
A77: 24 frames, 5.1 seconds to clear
8 fps RAW test
7D: 16 frames, 10 seconds to clear
A77: 15 frames, 8 seconds to clear
8fps RAW+ jpeg test
7D: 6 frames, 9 seconds to clear
A77: 14 frames, 10 seconds to clear
3 fps jpeg fine test
7D: indefinitely, 2 seconds to clear
A77: indefinitely (@ 3.3fps), 0 seconds to clear
3 fps RAW test
7D: 27 frames, 12 seconds to clear
A77: 25 frames, 8.1 seconds to clear
3 fps RAW+jpeg test
7D: 10 frames total, 9 seconds to clear
A77: 18 frames total, 10.4 seconds to clear
the only problem is that Canon 7D was was announced on September 1, 2009
and you expect a newer camera to to way better
Expectations and expectations. Since neither the 7D nor the D300S have been replaced yet and the A77 does offer improvements in certain areas (some significant, certainly compared to the D300S) for a comparable price, there isn’t much to complain. Historically the only cameras offering significantly more buffer depth are the high end ones costing north of $5k. Sofar no camera has been able to combine 24MP with this kind of buffer depth to begin with, except for the D3X (>$8k).
You’re right! Let’s compare the A77 to the cameras that Canikon haven’t yet released.
LMFAO 😀
Not to mention that the 7D can not do 12fps…
So, A77 has a bit bigger and a bit faster buffer. And when noticing that A77’s images are 24Mp compared to Canon’s 18 Mp, the A77 shows clear advancement. Or how?
it just monitors have not enough resolution!
1920×1200 in 24″? it is only 2,3MPix!
I want at least 3840×2400 (not bigger than 24″, preferably 20-23″), cmon monitor manufacturers, join megapixel race!
It amazes me that people can complain even in aspects that are superior in the sony… you’ve got to be kidding me right?
Oh, this argument again *yawn*
I am with ya !!!!
While all of this bantering is going on .. I am going out this week and make some money with my A77..
You seen that right my A77 I am going to go make some dough, cash, some green.. So hope everyone has a great week, cause I is!!!!!
Off-topic but NR then downsize or downsize then NR?
Downsizing does NR inherently. So the larger image in mpix you start with, the less noise you end with.
You know it would be nice if Sony brought out a firmware upgrade that will allow us to shoot 4K video at 24FPS….
yes, the Megapixels race is dead. someone else tell Sony. The sensor of the NEX 5n is perfect while the sensor of the NEX-7 ( same as the a77) produces magenta color casting, and lower low light definition.
Check Steve Huff testing the NEX-7 with the Leica lens.
Agree, I will not buy the NEX 7 because of the magenta cast.
Don’t buy it then. Who cares? Not me. Not Sony.
Maybe if you based your decision on rational or logical points…..
Arnold do us a favor and just stop pretending to be a photographer, thanks.
The magenta cast with legacy glass has nothing to do with the amount of MP but everything with microlenses.
Steve tested them at different exposures. Not a valid test. Focus Numerique showed the sensors have very similar noise levels for a given output size at a given exposure.
The different filter design of NEX-7 compared to NEX-5 sensor is more of an issue when you adapt to other mounts shorter registration distance.
That should not be problem for A77, for which you will most probably always stick to alpha-mount lenses.
The megapixel “race” is not over for professionals, which by the sound of it you most likely are not. Be satisfied with your 5N but let us pros have the features that are required for commercial and studio work.
Yre blaming the camera for poor lens designed for different type of sensor.
In other words you don’t know what you’re talking about!
I am surprised about so many readers complaining to Sony about the fact that their Leica lenses are not working to perfection on a Sony camera. If for example a magenta cast appears with a Leica lens on a Leica camera then I think the user is right to complain to Leica – but if the Leica lens produces problems on a Sony camera why complain? The Sony was designed for Sony lenses and if it works with other lenses then I accept this as a bonus.
If you want lower noise, display at a smaller size, just like you would with a 16MP or lower resolution camera. If your computer is too slow to handle 24MP, you have a valid complaint. Memory is cheap and with a fast card, the buffer depth is comparable to a Canon 7D.
For those that still think the camera would have performed better in low light with the 16MP sensor, here’s the myth busted one more time.
A77 vs A55 at equal exposure (unlike for example the Dpreview test):
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=39781029
That’s a great link. The summary, for me at least, is that the only way a viewer could say there is more noise is to highlight that there are more noisy pixels. Seeing there are 50% more pixels in total then that’s hardly surprising.
I hope people can leave this high ISO BS behind now.
OR put another way, comparing %100 crops of sensors with different pixel densities is comparing different ISOs.
24mpix at 1600 ISO is a higher ISO than 16mpix at 1600 ISO.
If this doesn’t make sense to you, you’re not understanding what ISO is.
I am satisfied with JPG up to ISO 3200. You can get acceptable ISO 6400 JPG but I think RAW is better for ISO higher than ISO 6400 if you want to print big. If you just print 4R then JPG is OK.
I’d have to agree with Garrard. Sony’s 24mp cameras max out at iso 1600 in video where as their 16mp cameras max out at iso 3200. It’s clear that 24mp doesn’t perform as well as the 16mp sensor and I definitely need better low light capability when doing video work.
Clear to those that haven’t done an apples vs apples comparison:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=39781029
Clear if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
%100 pixel crops show less area and thus a higher effective ISO on higher megapixel camera sensors.
Why do people not understand this?
I do not know Bill. This is an extremely simple concept. The only possible explanation is that they are under some sort of spell, or maybe have a disease that is affecting their rational thinking?
They are pitiful sheep who follow each other chanting the same mantra without taking the time to do any research on the physics or engineering of photography. And they MUST be able to print poster size ISO 12800 images of their pets. At night. With no ambient light.
All these laments are a bit ridiculous knowing that if you shoot raw (and you have to), a 3200 ISO well exposed is perfect for a A3+ print, and a 6400 ISO is not so bad and perfect for a A4. Who really needs more than that ?
Just picked up my A77 from the local Sony center in Norway 3 days ago. Preinstalled with fw 1,03. The camera seems to have none of the problems many comments talk about. Are you actually users of the camera and not just readers? Using my old CZ 18-80, and the first impressions are that this camera will be loved. Forget the nano discussions of high iso. Use the compensations as described in many comments.
But enjoy the new world of actually seeng what you are shooting. You can do everything in the EVF, indoors you quickly adjust the warmth of the lighting. goodbye blueish or red pictures, the peaking function is a Must Have in low light allthough the AF is fast and accurate. First impression is that this is a dream tool, but it will take some time for the photographer to get the most out of it. Opportunities not constraints my friends!
Or you could buy a D700 or D3s so you can awesome 6400 ISO shots of your cat indoors.
lol @cat indoors
btw… it’s “too” not “to” on the title. Sorry, I don’t mean to be grammar police, it’s just a pet peeve of mine
If you compare the A77 to the A900, the A77 seems slightly worse off for noise but a little sharper … I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.
I personally think the noise on the A900 could be better and rarely dare go beyond 400 ISO, so the A77 wouldn’t really work for me. I hope that the A99 (or whatever it is called) shows an improvement on the A900 in terms of noise at least.
The problem may well be fixed with improved image processing software from Sony and others.
Perhaps there is a space for a very low noise camera at about 18mp, I know that I would welcome one. That said, I wouldn’t avoid the A77 if I were in the market for an A700 replacement.
I’m sure there will be better things to come, however, I hope they come soon.
Is this really all from canikons? There are only Nikon V1/J1 and Canon 1D X in this year as answer on the A77/65? The first one got smaller sensor as the most cams in the same class (only the Pentax Q is smaller). The second one was forced to go down to 18mp to achieve the same speed like A77. I expected something more from canikons after that Nex and A77 bomb indeed. And A99 is already on the way!
Never mind the fact that the Canon isn’t going to be seen for quite a few months from now.
Since NEX-7 has been delayed… And still a lot of production need to be follow up.. I hope sony realised the problem… and they come out with the option to switch the NEX7/A77 sensor with the Nex 5n.. That will even please a lot more ppl. But then I believe the 24mp sensor are already long ready to be placed into the body.
One thing I know is that photographers (at least the ones that I know) care is about Image quality. and that is One area that Sony has fail over and over compare to canon Or Nikon
No no no, you got it wrong. Sony never fail, they never do anything wrong – just go out and shoot, “look over here guy…”.
But seriously yes, its a consistent design flaw of Sony’s and they are way too hard headed to ever change. Go to a photo show sometime, talk to the guys at a Canon or Nikon counter about their products, then go over to a Sony counter and do the same.
The level of knowledge and intelligence are worlds apart, that tells you everything about the camera companies as a whole.
No matter what the rabid sony fans here say. Hold to the truth, never let it slip away.
end of line.
I have talked to camera guys at Sony stores and they wouln’t know a shutter from a mirror(literally). Their knowledge base is limited to a number of pixels and major functions like video or GPS.
Yep exactly.
@MCP End of line? What does that stupid comment mean?
Fan boy, Sony hater, whatever. Let’s just hope for good, fair and balanced comments. Seeing as yours are continually so negative I don’t really understand why you are on this forum. I’m sure they’d welcome you with open arms on CanonRumors.
Troll.
Lol lets see, which adjectives shall we pick this time to ward off any criticism of Sony. Fanboy, troll, hater, aren’t those just a little bit overused?
It’s called fair and balanced discussion Dave. Part of the topics I’m critical about here, yes, that’s life Dave. Balance is key to learning things Dave. Upset the balance and nothing is learned.
I’m not a Sony hater, they are just very predictable and their products always seem to fall just short of pleasing A-Mount shooters. Sony needs to hear, and asks to hear, both sides of the argument so they can understand their customers needs better.
So quit it with the spit on the hater lynch mob mentality. This is an open discussion, be a man and live with equality.
(MCP and End of Line, google it …)
end of line.
@MCP – ‘end of line’ I did google it and got some obscure ‘Tron’ reference. And you call me the geek behind my screen? Sheesh…
On the anonymity front, who is the one on here under their real name and who is the one on under an abbreviation/acronym?
You criticise me for name calling yet all you do is call people out for being positive. It’s a sad old world.
The whole thing about your argument is that this discussion ISN”T fair and balanced. It’s a mindless reptition of the same old points from people with no imagination to think of anything new to add.
Still, I apologise for trying to lighten the mood a little – if you took the time to look atall my posts or even GOOGLE my name you might see that I make both positive and negative poitns. Unlike you.
Enjoy your life.
Please define image quality.
are you from Sony?? 🙂
Probably if he needs you to define image quality.
end of line.
It looks like the thread topic is all over the map so here I go with more off topic stuff………
The issue of lag time and battery life that are currently part of the EVF is a concern to me as a photographer that specializes in street, performance and other non-staged events that require a fast eye and even a faster camera system to capture the moment.
If the business –line out of Sony at all future DSLR cameras will have EVF and not OVF continues, and significant improvements don’t occur to speed the EVF experience I can’t see professionals using it as a primary photographic instrument. The A77 has many wonderful improvements and I still see it as the future of consumer and pro-consumer camera for enthusiasts and as a second or third camera for a pro, But I can’t help to wonder if the battery life issue that plagues this and other electronic devices and more importantly the high startup and lag-times won’t dissuade professional photographers that rely on the camera to be ready to capture and image at the blink of an eye will not see the lag time issues and poor battery performance of an EVF limiting.
We shall see, and as an owner of a lot of Minolta and Sony Zeiss glass I’m hopeful but at the same time I can’t help to hope that Sony releases just one more professional full frame, state of the art camera to replace my current beat-up pair of Alpha a850’s.
I would be excited to have a 24-36MP Alpha a950 with OVF, Alpha a99 with the EVF and a NEX with a high quality small fast prime lens for times when using the big guns just aren’t practical or just plain to risky.
If the battery life isn’t long enough, buy a two battery, battery grip.
+1.
I have been saying that EVF is not a feasable replacement option for the OVF for over 2 years now. All i heard was “you should try that bright and awesome EVF on35, 55, and now 77 models”. I have done so with hope to see a reason to switch from film to EVF digital. I found none. I can not imagine framing Yosemite falls through that crappy digital contraption.
I may not sell my prints, but I will do everything to enjoy photography including the use of OVF exclusively. Alpha 900 will be my last Sony camera purchase it seems. Then, I will switch to Canon and play with PC lenses.
What is the purpose of a viewfinder, whether it is optical or electronic? The answer is that it is to frame the subject so that one can take a photograph. Hopefully, a good photographer knows even before he raises the camera to his eye what the final image will look like. The viewfinder is just another tool to capture the final image. It is NOT the final image.
Ha parlato Mose’….
@ Mark of the beast (666) you don’t know squat what you are taking about!
I have during my tenure (that means time at a job or occupied doing something), with Sony I made the mistake of changing systems to Canon 5d mk2, 60D, Not saying they are bad cameras but as I looked over my portfolio (examples of my work), I have much better results coming from my Sony gear (Detail, resolution, color).. So you argument is baseless..
Being you are from below I assume you have been in the dark and are not up to speed on the new technology..
Happy Shooting!!!
Yes because YOU didn’t do as well with the other gear his whole point is baseless. Narcissism much?
end of line.
If you scan flikr (or the likes), you may notice that the greatest percentage of BW vs colour DSLR pix comes from Canon gear. Guess why? My hypothesis is that’s because people are not satisfied with the colours out of Canons.
That said, I was able to get good (Minolta/Sony) level of colour reproduction from Canon DSLRs starting from 7D and 1dMk4 and thereafter. But never before those!
Now, Now MCP..
End of line? does that mean we don’t have to put up with pointless, mindless remarks?
Hmm, ‘end of line’ – maybe he’s snorting coke. That would explain his manic answers anyway.
@ Dave- End of line- Google it. Name calling is a precursor to insecurity- it’s pretty obvious your incendiary insecurity isn’t limited to sitting behind a computer firing off nasty messages. Gotta love the anonymity shield eh? Feeling safe behind your screen taking pot shots at someone? Yeah I bet you do.
end of line.
Agreed. I’ve never liked the color from Canon DSLR’s including the 7D which is an improvement over earlier models, but not as accurate to my eye as Sony.
I read the review and I agree with pixel count. I suspect what we need is a Nex 7 Body with a smaller mega pixel sensor in the Nex 5N Sensor range that has been tweaked to get the perfect mirrorless camera:
1: High ISO with low noise.
2: Viewfinder.
3: Hot shoe for full power industrial strength flash.
4. Pocketwizard or Phottix flash sync for both manual and iTTL Metering.
LOL Dave !!!
Yes and another so called Pro gets it wrong again !! Iam a Pro now I have a A77 or was it a Nikon ! or a Canon O right they have 12 16 18 cant be right.
Why nobody says ISO 12800 is too much? If mp must not more than 12mp, ISO also has to be restricted to ISO 800.
Exactly. If 24MP is too much, what ISO is too much?
Could it be that *what MP is too much actually depends on what you are doing*, just like with ISO?
The trade off between sensor size, sensor clarity, dynamic range, focusing speed/accuracy, video availability, noise, price, and camera build/ergonomics (and even ‘what lenses you already have’) are a multi-way tradeoff when picking any camera, and no one camera is ever ‘correct’ 100% of the time
‘I just want a camera that has good IQ’ is a bit glib: doesn’t it *all* just depend on what you are doing with the camera?
I dont think the A77 is a perfect camera for me. The D3 isn’t either – its too expensive. I never bought into CaNikon because their entry level cameras are rubbish: with Sony, any Sony lens works with any body for all features, and that just doesnt happen for CaNikons, so I never entered into their systems. I also shot with Minolta for Film before digital.
So from where I look, the A77 is my best choice to move up from my a5xx. It’s not a single decision, its the culmination of all the little decisions I made along the way when I asked myself ‘how do I want to use my camera’!
Good point !!
Just got my A77 from Amazon and have fired off a couple hundred test shots with CZ16-80 and must say that this camera is a wonder tool that surpasses my A550 in every respect. There is so much yet to learn given the incredible breadth of available shooting options. It’s gonna take a while, but what I presently see is nothing short of revelatory. This is an astonishingly capable photographic instrument.
Garrard’s article said he wished he had better low-light performance and would trade pixels for it. If you can believe DxO’s tests, and I do, you can conclude that fewer pixels wouldn’t help with low light. DxO found that the loss of useable sensitivity for the A77 versus the A580 was very close to the loss caused by the translucent mirror. So let’s not blame the high pixel count. Also, I don’t understand where the conclusion comes from that shooting RAW can solve the problem. If the noise level is too high, it’s going to be high in RAW as well (unless the noise is being brought out by sharpening). As far as the criticism that there is too much noise reduction on the jpegs, I can believe that. After all, Sony has taken tremendous flak for using too little noise reduction on the A850 and 900. I have an 850, and there’s no question that the jpegs have a noise problem that is produced by a too-strong, sharpening-to-noise-reduction ratio. What you see is sharpened, noisy jpegs when compared to RAW. My solution is to shoot RAW and use a Noise Ninja plug-in to Photoshop followed by careful, two-stage sharpening when I want the best possible product. Of course, I wish that weren’t necessary, but c’est la vie. I do have a concern that there is a law of diminishing returns from increasing pixel density. As you eliminate the digitization impact on resolution, you’re left with the resolution loss from optics. All the pixels in the world won’t change that. Another limit on resolution is the diffraction-induced blur that occurs at the smallest apertures.
As for me, I think I’m going to pass on the A77, simply because I have the A850 and the A580. The A77 is tempting because it offers so much resolution that can be realized with the lower-cost, higher-zoom-range, lighter weight, more compact, DT lenses… although the higher pixel density begs for better lens resolution. It has a dynamite feature set. The superior video performance should appeal, but I almost never use it. Also, I’ve got a big investment in a 17-35mm f2.8 lens that is wonderful with the A850, but of no special value with APS-C. I’m waiting to see if Sony will produce a full-frame, 30 megapixel camera. If they do, and it is a true DSLR, I’ll probably buy it. Until then, I’m sticking with what I’ve got.
The A77 is incredible for wedding photography! We’ve shot 4 weddings with our pair of A77s and the photos are wonderful and editing is at a minimum.
Please do not embarrass your camera by shooting with lousy glass. If you can afford $1400 for a camera spend another $500-1000 on some good glass.
Great job SONY!
Great review. Challenge Sony to compete better instead of being led into false security with a mediocre product the A77 is. Too many of you are too positive and it’s hurting Sony and you because if you weren’t so easily satisfied you’d have an even better product to rave-fully brag about here. Instead you have just a good product when you could have had an excellent product.
You’ll never learn.
end of line.
Oh MCP, oh how I wish I had your wisdom.
The wisdom of constant negativity. The wisdom of using obscure sci-fi references. The wisdom of accusing someone else of being anonymous when you choose to be known by a geeky acronym….
Ultimately, I like to be positive. Sure, the A77 has faults. The high ISO isn’t as good as the D7000. The HDR and other gimmicks don’t work on RAW images. You can’t turn NR off on JPEG. I’m sure you’ll mention more but for me, I’ve had the camera 4 weeks and I love it, I really do. Go ahead, flame me for that if you like but I can only give my opinion.
I’m sure if Sony had concentrated on producing flawless images at ISO3200 you’d have been on here complaining about the IQ at ISO 50. And that would have been your prerogative.
I just don’t see any point in 50 different people making the same flawed point that’s all.
Ultimately, I’ve come onto this forum, NOT been anonymous, let people see my work (and critique if they like) and given my honest opinions.
All I’ve seen from you on the other hand is negativity. To me, that’s the easiest and most in imaginative thing anyone could have done. Where are your great and flawless works of art for us all to view?
END OF LINE
Dave it’s not necessary for you to understand why people say what they say here or any other forum. Unless of course it was your own forum, which this clearly isn’t.
Generically speaking- Open talk, honest feedback, is necessary and sometimes it isn’t all roses, but sometimes that’s the only way for someone to learn. Same applies here, or any other forum.
If you don’t own or moderate a forum, you don’t have a say so one way or the other- your sense of self entitlement is typical of this new generation. You want it all your own way but have done nothing or next to nothing to earn that right.
I’ll say what I want. Continue with the personal insults and just try to drive me out of here, I dare you.
end of line.
All this talk about 24MP not being relevant is backward looking (towards print) rather than forward looking (towards ultra high definition multimedia clients): UHTV, WQHD and QFHD are just around the corner.
People read e-books now, and when they have a large ultra high definition screen in the living room, they will be consuming current print based fashion spreads, newspapers, et al on a large 2x or 4x HD screen.
Thats the point when all the current 16-18MP cameras will go into the bin. I’m thinking we’ll be there for the mainstream within 5 years.
Sony are concentrating on MP for political reasons – because they’ll be the ones creating those UHTV screens, not Canon and not Nikon.
Good luck with your high ISO when that happens.
My word, my head is spinning with all these opinions! I occasionally do some wedding photography but mainly just take photos as a hobby. I currently use the a550 for weddings and, usually, the a300 for hobby stuff (although now and then I use a P&S). All I need to know is am I going to get any real advantage from getting the a77 for wedding gigs or should I just stick to what I’ve got? All this too-ing and fro-ing regarding ISO, resolution & image quality has totally confused me. Right people, there’s the challenge – GO TO IT!
I could not find an email link anywhere so will post here.
Just F.Y.I… You used the word “than”, when you should have used the proper spelling of “then” two times in this article alone and many times on your rumors site. It just helps give you credibility if you can spell correctly. See examples below. Thanks!
“Editor’s note: I fully agree with Carl. I can recommend this camera to anyone shooting RAW and low ISO images (like landscapes). And of course if you shoot video (((than)))” ***THEN WOULD BE CORRECT SPELLING*** the A77 is almost a must have camera!
and,
“And (((than))) ***THEN WOULD BE CORRECT SPELLING*** there is that Sony JPEG engine which has to be improved: