It took four years to get a first non Leica and affordable Full Frame camera. And now that we have the A7 and A7r Sony will not stop at all! Egami found that Sony patent describing an ultra compact Sony NEX-5 Full Frame camera! And according to one of our sources Sony will indeed launch more bodies 2014 including some that will be cheaper and smaller than the A7. It almost sounds like Full Frame and not APS-C will become the mainstream mirrorless system sensor. If Sony can keep the price down than this makes sense to create a clear advantage over the competition. The one big issue is that FF lenses will be big. On the other side you can use smaller APS-C lenses in crop mode if you care about size. Sounds intriguing!
67 Responses
Just how the hell are people supposed to hold these cameras with even a moderately large lens? With FF comes lenses that are even bigger, and if those Zeiss primes that are as long as a hotdog are any indication, this proves that Sony has no idea what users have to go through in order to use their stuff. You can also bet your ass these cameras won;t be cheap, and getting proper FF nex lenses for these things without a huge ugly adapter will be next to none. Not to mention these cameras still have one big ass handicap…no EVF or evf ovf. People outside of Japan do not see these smallish cameras as being anything more than a point and shoot. And most consumers don’t even know what Ff is or care. They see the price tag, the size of the camera, and they won’t even bother. They might even vomit once they see huge FF lenses stuck on that thing.
Sony has no clue of what they are doing. No one already invested in a system is going to jump ship to go to a maker that can’t even decide what it wants to do and stick with it. All these new Sony gimmicks are just another indicator of how dangerous it is to invest and spend money on sony cameras. If this doesn’t work out…and it won’t cause you can bet Canikon will do what they do best, make something that consumers will second guess buying a sony. I’ve gone from dslrs to mirrorless dslrs, but all these wishy washy rip off cameras that these companies make, many without even a proper evf, are all steering me away from these mirrorless dslrs. anyone who has tried to shoot a camera with a big telephoto with the dirty diaper method can attest to how much it contributes to back pain.
My prediction is that sony will abandon everything and go make a line of rx10 2.8 mega zoom cameras based on the 1 inch sensor. You can bet Canikon will be making products that will make users think twice about investing in a company that doesn’t have their investment back.
Oh shut up. You obviously haven’t seen the size of the 35/2.8 FE NEX lens. APS-C sensors still don’t give as good DR and ISO performance as a FF sensor. And if you can’t afford one, that’s not Sony’s problem.
You obviously haven’t looked at A7r images closely (check them out on DPR). The image quality is stunning! It’s like medium format in your palm. The Zeiss prime lenses are not optimized for size, buy they’re clearly optimized for sharpness and quality. Take them for what they are and see what they can do.
Mu4/3 and Canon FF user here… looking forward to smaller FF.
I agree. I wouldn’t mind adding a cheap FF Nex with nifty 50 to my m43 kit bag for those times when I need to get shallow DOF or very low light. I would definitely pass on the big/heavy/slow lenses though. This is a bigger deal than the A7 announcement and should have Canon and Nikon shaking in their boots because it completely removes the exclusivity of FF from “pro photography” circles, especially if it causes prices to dip under $1000. It’s no wonder that Canon is all of a sudden rumored to be developing medium format for a “premium” camera.
Can’t agree with you more. Most ppl only care about size and price. They won’t even search on the internet.
You’re kidding right? Both Canon and Nikon started APS-C systems and then abandoned them for full frame. Name one high quality native prime for Canon APS-C? Before FX, Nikon had 3 professional APS-C lenses. After FX, Nikon completely abandoned DX.
Sony is providing options, and more options benefit the consumer.
Abandoned them for FF? They are still making aps c cameras buddy. Try check your facts before LYING.
Except there are no serious lens line up for APS-C. So either canikon has abandoned APS-C or they are doing it half assed.
Plus where’s the D400?
Just required a different bit of technique, that’s all.
Not unlike shooting hand held with a large lens on a large DSLR
(ie A7 + moderately long lens = DSLR + long lens)
Uhhh…what’s a mirrorless DSLR? That sounds unpossible.
The usual Sony strategy of more camera bodies than lenses continues then…
“you can use smaller APS-C lenses in crop mode if you care about size.”
Why not buy NEX-5 then? Old small(ish) FF lenses can be mounted via Speed Booster. Don’t see the point in so small FF ILC.
speed booster doesn’t offer AF.
Sure it does.
The point is there is no point. Sony is not interested in how their cameras are actually used or works on a real human hand. Their bean counters only care about numbers and how much money they make or not. Sony does not give a shit about how a user has invested in a system. Sony does not are about what their users like to use or even if their investment is protected in the future. Sony wants to make another smash hit like the walkman for cameras…only problem is..there is no such thing. The wheel has already been invented, you can not reinvent the damn wheel. Canikon year after year just concentrates on making that photographic wheel a little better and better. Sony year after year is always trying to reinvent the wheel…trying to create revolution. It didn’t happen for minolta and it wont happen for sony either. NEVER TRUST SONY CAMERA DIVISION. Their bean counters certainly don’t give a shit about its users and their track record proves this.
+100…!
wow, so bitter
-101
Somebody’s a Sony shill.
This may be the worst argument I have ever heard. The wheel has already been invented. Who needs an automobile? Sure we don’t need companies innovating. That is a terrible thing.
Best argument you did not understand. what is implied is that Canikon believe in evolution i their cameras. Sony believes in Revolution. Canon and nikon gives you beter and better cars every year. Sony makes a car without windows, gives you an electronic window as an assessory and charges you more. Sony makes Cars so small, the engines on it is bigger than the freaking car. Do you understand? Or do you need a chart and tutor as well?
Why exactly are you so bitter? You must have a really bad life. You do know that Sony making the first real FF mirrorless system is actually a GOOD thing for everyone, right? It benefits NIkon and Canon uses too. It’s going to force the big 2 to rethink their line up and push the competition between all manufacturers. Grow out of your childish mentality of team A vs team B and look at the bigger picture.
So when is Sony going to adopt the Fujifilm strategy of supporting its Customers as well as they do AFTER the sale by continually offering free firmware updates that actually do improve the performance and functionality of the products they sell?
=====
That’s something every manufacturer should sit up and take notice about. It’s one reason Fuji Customers feel cared about; and that leads to Customer loyalty.
Wrong. Correct: Canon and Nikon are selling you better horses every year, whereas Sony tries to invent automobile.
I guess Fuji is giving us Ferraris then.
not sure if i’m just feeding a troll, but…
if you haven’t noticed, it was sony who pushed canon and nikon (and other players) to be more innovative in their camera lineup. the affordable nex mirrorless releases (which eventually caused canon/nikon to release EOS-M and nikon 1), then owned nikon 1 with the RX100 release (and challenging the lower-end M43 systems), to the RX1 (triggering fuji to think about an FF X200) to the somewhat affordable A7 challenging once again the lower-end D610 and 6D FF dslrs.
Sure, I don’t own any sony gear (yet), but i am very happy it caused the big name camera makers refresh and rethink their camera strategies.
+1
Without high quality very compact lenses (primes and zooms), going mirrorless is nonsense.
To name a few:
1. speedboster+APSC still doesn’t provide same FOV as FF sensor
2. same for IQ, DR
3. You have to use other lenses presets with SB because picture of aberrations is changed.
4. speedbooster has SLR mount before it permanently attached. You have to choose between canon FD, EF, sony A, etc.
5. you cannot mount rangefinder lenses and FF-NEX lenses on SB.
I wonder what Fuji’s “Strategy” to this would be?
By 2010, we will have an organic sensor with global “sweater” in velvia tapestry? LOL!
My Fuji X-e1 has velvia mode and it works very nicely. I am sure Sony will continue to advance their full frame mirrorless deal, but I am not interested in it because my Fuji APS-C sensor has not let me down yet.
Enjoy Fuji dropping all APS-C lens development to focus on full frame. Nikon and Canon did it before. Oh boy…
Did it before? When? the STILL make aps c digital cameras pal. Are you off your meds again? Or does Sony pay you just to lie here?
you misread his posts 2 times. He was talking about lenses designed for aps c sized sensors, not about dslrs with an aps c sized sensor in it. And that’s what his point was about. Canikon abandoned their research about lenses speicifically designed for aps-c sized sensors, which you can also observe at Sony, and probably Fuji later on. Read before you insult.
Aps c lenses? Why would you need more apsc lenses when FF lenses do the same thing and they have enough lenses to cover what you would ever need. You think ppl are begging Canon or nikon to make more apsc lenses? Goes without saying, right? THINK and use your BRAIN before you reply. It’s a thing called human LOGIC…unless you have none or are paid not to use it.
That is a highly illogical reply.
For lenses <200mm there are many advantages to APS-C optimized lenses vs 35mm ones. Size, weight, performance, optical complexity/correction, etc. to name a few.
Let’s see, 3 months later and Fuji has announced 7 new lenses in their X Mount APS-C based X Cameras, and none of those lenses are compatible with sensors measuring 24mm x 36mm.
=====
But they do continue to surpass the lenses being manufactured today by nearly every other company producing camera bodies in terms of build quality, performance, and specifications.
=====
Why is it that I read so many comments by people who are longing to have a camera with a huge sensor that mounts Fujinon lenses?
could be the smaller and lighter ff cameras without evf.
why does everybody always think that ff lenses must be so very big? jus look at the old 35mm compacts (with film) those 35/2.8 or 3.5 lenses were very very small, of course not as good as the huge (yes for a 35/2.8 is is HUGE) new zeiss ff e-mount but you don’t always need sharp corners open, actually I often prefer a bit of vignetting and blurriness wide open in the corners. once you stop down the corners will be very usable.
or look at the old leica 35/1.4 not a big lens at all and not a bad lens either. (of course if you want perfect quality in the corners at 1.4 you will need a bigger lens, but the beauty of interchangeable lens cameras is that you can change lenses 🙂 so use a small lens for street/everyday use and use a large lens for when you need that quality wide open.
I really hope voigtlander will make small mf lenses for the e-mount system (or at least give us the m lenses in native e mount)
With the helicoid M to E-mount adapter there is no need for native E-mount lenses. Zeiss will do it late next year but at a cost.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/10/24/voigtlander-creates-vm-e-close-focus-adapter-for-sony-cameras
An AF lens cannot be quite as small as a MF one if it is intended for a FF sensor.
with native e mount lenses there is no need for an adapter 🙂
When you factor in the autofocus motors and wide apertures you’re right back to big lenses again. You can’t avoid physics in the real world.
smaller lenses also need smaller af motors, look at the lens of the mji II it is af and it is tiny! (of course a interchangeable lens will be a bit bigger but not that much) and if you look at the old leica 35/1.4 this lens has a wide aperture and it is tiny as well. I bet you could make a lens with these optics and an af that would not be much bigger than the current 35/2.8.
ContaxG lenses are probably the smallest FF AF lens out there but they were also pricey when new.(a little noisy as well)
True, but won’t the sensor have trouble with the light coming in at an angle at the edges of the frame? To deal with this they need to use some micro lens solution or a sphere shaped sensor, which can only be optimised for 1 lens or very few lenses with similar characteristics. And I might have to add: as far as I know… right?
And at what cost?
Have you seen how big apsc nex lenses are already?
Sony is shaking the market,nevertheless their products will last or not, and it will force sleeping giants such as Canikon to move their asses ans stop (maybe) releasing cameras with incremental upgrades years after years (rebel line,powershoot G line…)
No matter what, APS-C costs a fraction (1/3-1/5) of 35mm. It will always be cheaper and there are more people looking for value than looking for 35mm. Sony has yet to really gain traction in the market place. Too soon to declare them the winner or their chosen path the ultimate end. Certainly there will be a number of 35mm mirrorless cameras out there at some point. But the question is: is that the right answer or are the camera companies repeating the exact same thing that happened at the end of the film SLR days? Sales continue to decrease and the market is shrinking. I’d expect more exits/consolidation as usually happens in a declining market. At least until there is something truly disruptive or innovative. 35mm sensors aren’t that.
True. And Sony is already selling the cheapest APS-C camera, the A3000, for $400 with lens. So I think it’s only getting cheaper.
I handled the A7/r at PhotoPlus. They’re beefy for mirror less cameras but small compared to what’s available. The lenses are not as big as they are made out to be–certainly not for the quality. The 35mm is wider than comparable ZM lenses but it is AF so that’s to be expected. The 55mm is only slightly longer than some nifty 50’s but it actually is surprisingly compact. I think the issue is that Sony/Zeiss are using the Sonnar design as the basis which is more tele centric in design and has more pleasing bokeh but is typically “longer”. I fear the system will be hampered somewhat because Sony didn’t prioritize making symmetrical lens designs work better. That’s the key to compact RF lenses. However the lenses aren’t that large. They look bigger than we’re now used to after suffering through a decade of over-sized DSLRs. If Nikon really releases a digital F with the same dimensions as the old school F series I think you’ll see the same thing there–the lenses will look “unnaturally” large in product shots.
+1
The Canikon must be confusing their ff lenses with Sony/Zeiss’s. As I carried my small lightweight NEX-7 easily around my neck on my last family vacation, I laughed to myself watching others with their big DSLR +lens strapped around themselves with a big heavy wrap and lugging a big ‘ol camera bag. And they think I look funny with my small camera and “big lens”. Pretty amusing. Now that they are shaking up the FF world with the revolutionary A7’s it’s obviously threatening the status-quo.
Sony isn’t shaking up the camera world until they actually gain in market share. Too soon to declare the A7 experiment a success or failure. Regardless, the market share for higher end cameras continues to decline as more ubiquitous smaller (and cheaper) cameras gain higher performance features.
YES, BABY, YES. I can’t wait.
I never bought into Sony cause of big lenses. Now you’ll have a tiny body and even bigger lens ?
Will it sell. ?
How crazy one could be to buy a FF camera and then to use it with APS-C lenses?
APS-C lens compatibility is just a BIG PLUS, is not mandatory…..
I’d totally lose half my megapixels just to be able to ramp up WAY OVER iso 6400 for crisp images if needed with cheaper/older nex aps-c lenses
lest assume you got the cheap (90€ each) 19mm/30mm from sigma…..still being able to use them is not something to throw away
FF “high ISO” advantage vanishes if you’re using it in crop mode.
I agree with asp-c lenses compatibility is a plus, though.
APS-C crop mode will have the same high iso performance as current NEXes. FF high iso advantage only comes when you use all of the sensor area.
cropping in camera or post…why would that make any difference in ISO performance?
In APS-C crop mode less light is used to create the image, which leads to more noise in the image. You have the same amount of light per unit area, of course, but that only determines exposure. The total amount of light collected is more relevant to image quality.
Cropping an image in post have the same effect, if you output it at the same size. You magnify the noise, leading to worse apparent image quality.
I wonder where these low-light myths come from. An F2.0 lens will cause light hit the sensor with the same intensity, no matter how big it is. It will just illuminate less area which equals to image crop in Photoshop. The only way it could produce “more noise” is if the pixels had less area which they don’t. A crop sensor is simply that – a crop.
There’s no inherent advantage of full frame sensor, providing individual pixels are of the same size. There will be just less illuminated pixels. But – and this is where I agree – more pixels means more resolution which in turn means the noise occupies higher frequency ranges. So even though at the pixel level the noise is the same, overall it will be less “grainy” on full-frame. But if you crop there’s no advantage. You can crop full frame image to APS-C size or you can just take a photo with APS-C sensor.
i like that there is another camera out there to use rangefinder lenses without crop but i wish they had a shutter dial and better corner performance. :/
” It almost sounds like Full Frame and not APS-C will become the mainstream mirrorless system sensor.”
Nope. The mainstream mirrorless sensor is – and will continue to be for a good while – MFT. Not APS-C and certainly not FF. Sony has a LOT of work to do getting market share with this new range.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out and where the “mirrorless sweet spot” really is. Technically a full-frame mirrorless can do anything traditional DSLR can do. The question is ergonomy and user base. I assume only pro/prosumers would spend the money for such camera but many of them are already invested in Canikon. Hobbyists and travelers are likely to choose a smaller mirrorless system.