A7R II vs Leica Q (Camerasize).
Diglloyd is criticizing Sony for many reasons like their subpar repair service in US, poor product quality control (assimetry issues on some lenses) and the missing real lossless 14 bit raw. He is one of the very few bloggers/reviewers who openly critizes Sony:
I like the A7R II a lot in various ways, but what I want to see is Nikon D810 quality in the compact form factor Sony A7R II. There is no technical reason Sony can’t do it right, but it looks like we’re in for a long wait from a company that really does not understand photography.
Sony cameras feel like camera imitations, not the real thing (the Leica Q feels like the real thing, as does the Nikon D810 or Canon 5DS R). The Sony gestalt seemd to be deeply cultural and it may take a long time, if ever, to overcome. Which gives NiCanon some breathing room, in theory.
Beside that (too?) harsh statement the issues raised by Diglloyd are definitely real. But maybe he is too extreme in the way he puts in on words. And in Sony’s defense Sony is innovating very hard and that of course makes it more vulnerable to issues and problems that have to be fixed in future generations of cameras/lenses or (hopefully) via firmware upgrade. Nikon and Canon simply do rely on the same “old” and solid tech. And even then they have still major issues (D810 had huge thermal issues leading to bright spot problems). And yes, while the Leica Q feels certainly “the real thing” it has much fewer features and costs more than the A7R II. Diglloyd says that that for Sony “it may take a long time, if ever, to overcome“. This is just my very personal impressions: Yes Sony has to learn a couple of important things, but from what I have seen the past years I am pretty sure they will improve those areas where they don’t offer a decent quality. And there is already a good news that backups my claim: Sony contacted Diglloyd to get feedback about the service and quality issues…
A7rII preorder list:
In USA: at Amazon, BHphoto, Adorama, SonyStore US, FocusCamera, Uniquephoto.
In Europe at Sony DE, UK, FR, IT, ES, NL, BE, CH, AT, SE, FI, NO, PT. Wex UK.
In Asia at Digitalrev, CameraPro.
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339 Responses
Agreed 100% with Lloyd. I feel absolutely the same way.
Same here…
I don’t think Digilloyd understands photography. I’m content shooting with my Leica M3 and can make great photographs with it. Anything Sony gives me as a bonus feature is just that, a bonus. Think more about taking photographs than what you’re taking it with.
and Diglloyd opinion is relevant because??
…because he’s right?
In your opinion. And you are most likely even less relevant.
Ouch!
Sorry, I’m also irrelevant. All of us on here are. haha I just mean, these things shouldn’t be posted as news by a “blogger” who has no credibility. Sorry for offending.
Hehe, at least we have still the ability to reflect ourselves.
regardless of how successful my photography business is, I still see myself as irrelevant to photography just as you are. 😉
😉
Could you please explain why he isn’t credible?
he posted this
http://4.static.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS560x560~forums/56360463/6bacf6a819c64f739b744b5fec7f7efe
and changed it to this a while later
http://4.static.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS560x560~forums/56360463/a1be7aa7e2154e16a4b29e4d4f78b218
So you can’t even comment on what he writes because it changes dramatically at short notice (and with no revision note)
Suitcase of money arrived
If this is true, then it is sad indeed. I like his aperture series of different lenses for different scenes. Very useful to judge sharpness and rendering. But I usually don’t read the overall statements, only the latest after the debate began. But I didn’t pay attention to him changing what he wrote. For me, Sony got to a point with the A7ii, at which I use their cameras alongside Nikon at weddings (with my real gripe being the one SD-card slot). Had some nice shots of the cologne dome with strong shadow pulls, too, without compression artefacts, last weeks. I was so far able to force it only once.
It appears the same is true to you.
If an irrelevant person finds Lloyd relevant is as meaningless as an irrelevant person questions the relevance of Lloyd.
Oh please. You bore me.
Accepted.
…he’s an excellent photographer and has a proven track record of understanding in-depth technical issues better than most any popular photographer online?
He’s a moron, since he changes cameras every time a new one comes out, so he can’t possibly use any of his cameras to their limits, even an all-plastic “toy” DSLR. Instead he wants manufacturers to over-engineer the camera pushing up costs for “reliability” most people don’t actually need.
It’s him who actually doesn’t understand the market – the vast vast majority of people who buy an A7 series aren’t ever going to push it to the limits the 1% of remote outdoors landscape photographers are. Why should we subsidize their needs?
Look at his blog and the images he shares for comparison. Very valuable and certainly shows a lot of skill many other won’t ever get. He could use less drastic wording, however.
What Diggylloyd understands is that delivering his observations in an irreverent manner creates controversy which drives people to his sight. But, if you read ALL of his content, you’ll find he is really a big fan of the A7RII. That said, there is no reason whatsoever to coddle Sony, they do need to pay closer attention to what some top photogs are saying and finish out a product e.g. 14 bit lossless. And lenses with the Zeiss badge should have QC to match…way too many bad copies being released. IMHO.
hahah this guys is so hilarious !! … seem someone is hicking on the mirrors 😀 ahhaha sorry I can’t stop laughing…. canon and nikon are so old fashioned and this guys like to stay in the past. Poor guy !! keep using jurassic camera.
“…jurassic camera” LMFAO
Nikon 1 had the first PDAF on sensor as far as I know. Besides, using Sony and Nikon in parallel I don’t find them “jurassic”. Both are digital after all and I would my D810 call better thought through for professional use during a photo session. Doesn’t mean that the future won’t be in mirrorless.
There’s absolutely nothing more “professional” about a Nikon.
One of the few? Plenty of trolls out there. The fact that these issues exist does not make him right. Poor quality control? And who’s better? Nikon?
Zeiss.
All this bit hysteria is bullshit. Sure sony sound give a lossless option, even uncompressed. but this is so minor. never had the ability to see any difference between 10 bit and 12 bit on the nikon, not on my both Eizo screens, surely not in print.
Lloyd said, Sony does not understand photography. You say, the vast majority is still totally satisfied with the restrictions of Sony’s cameras. So, no contradiction here. Both may be true.
Yes, Sony don’t understand photography… this is a joke.
A good one.
Not really. I have followed Diglloyd’s posts and used Sony cameras for some time, and I have to say I completely agree with him, as much as people might like to think he’s “hating” on Sony. In reality, it’s extremely frustrating that Sony are able to come up with such groundbreaking features yet forget the details that are important for day-to-day photography.
It’s not just the compressed/cooked RAWs that Sony arbitrarily decided to use. There are a large number of smaller issues that are really annoying because they would be so easy to fix (not just by Sony, by any other camera company. For example: the low quality 5x zoomed display, the fact that on/off options require a menu rather than being a simple button toggle, the inaccuracy of the histogram (and the fact it doesn’t show RGB), the arbitrarily reduced bit depth on bulb exposures, the lack of automatic ETTR, the need for double rather than single press to zoom the view (and no option to change it), the confusing grouping of the menu items, the awkward location of the menu button, the inability to set more specific focal lengths for lenses (you’re limited to what Sony decides is standard), the lack of an in-built intervalometer, the arbitrary shutter speed limit of 30s…
The list goes on and on, and they’re so easy to fix it really does make you question whether Sony understand photography beyond the basic technical challenges. The same goes for other major manufacturers like Canon, and I’ll point to Magic Lantern as clear evidence that their firmware team doesn’t understand photography either.
Don’t get me wrong; I love my a7r and a7rii. They’re better than the competition for what I do. That’s not to say that they aren’t lacking in a lot of ways though, and mostly because of lack of attention to detail by Sony.
He is not overly critical of Sony, but sees the A7rii as a great camera, even 11+7 is forgivable: “Something strange happened on my recent trip: I did not see any mis-focused images from the Sony A7R II. I mean, none. Try doing that with a Nikon D810 or Canon 5DS R with an autofocus lens—I have and never come close, as past autofocus assessments show. And it’s hopeless to focus a lens manually using the optical viewfinder in a DSLR. […]. The Sony A7R II makes outstanding images with low noise and excellent dynamic range at 42 megapixels that are always in focus. Notwithstanding some file quality limitations anddisappointing 12-bit behavior in certain situations, nothing else can touch this track record of ultra-high hit rate. And it does so in a relatively compact form factor […]. And so I would say this: I think it is a mistake to ‘diss’ the Sony A7R for its faults, which most of the time either have a workaround (very careful exposure) and/or are unusual or rare. Trade that off against focus errors of all kinds, size and weight, etc. It’s a fair trade. When and if Sony can fix the few image quality issues, and perhaps add a bit more dynamic range with a Nikon D810 style ISO 64, it’s going to be very hard to argue in favor of any DSLR for 99% of shooters, including my workhorse Nikon D810.”
I found the A7r to be top top quality, for prints.
So the mk2 should be even better.
12 bits is very good in the real life, out of the lab. No print can show you even 12 bits.
This is pixel peeping in it highest degree.
More dynamic range? this is the top dynamic range sensor, why do you need more? it will give you better photos? comeone.
I think of it in terms of competition. Offering 14bit lossless compressed puts them in the same boat as Canikon, which is good for marketing reasons. I use 12 bit lossless compressed during events all the time.
You’re correct. Every maker has their problems, like Nikon dirt problem on the D600, and Canon’s infamous light leak in the 5Diii. It’s just amazing that people will diss Sony for it’s flaws when EVERY camera maker has their own.
At least with Sony, it’s flaws didn’t cost as much 🙂
Sony gets so many things right but at the same time, so many things so wrong. Lack of proper Auto ISO and not giving the A7rii Auto ISO features to older A7 models via a firmware update is not forgivable and is an insult to old and loyal customers.
However, same goes for all the other companies as well. Canon and Nikon both have so many rights and wrongs at the same time. Whatever system you choose to go with, you always have to compromise.
That’s right and possibly the reason why Lloyd is attracted to cameras like the A7Rii. What he is trying to say, that a Nikon D810 or Canon 5D is more thought-through and with more “substance”. I feel the same.
“More thought through with more substance” Really, but neither can design a stabilized sensor mechanism or a functional EVF. Canon & Nikon are just peddling the same old technology in the same old body with a focusing system that’s not accurate enough for shallow depth of field lenses at close (portrait) distance unless the clunky live view is used.
What you say is true. However, you totally missed the point of what Lloyd was trying to say.
Precisely. You just choose the right compromise for yourself. If I start listing Nikon’s issues, it won’t be any better.
Certainly seems so. Sony abandoned their whole pro line-up and offered nothing in return so far, while Nikon skims the cream off the Sony’s advantage in sensor technology.
What pro line-up did they abandon? Maybe it’s just changed shape, and size.
For the ‘Old School’ Pros, the A99 replaced the A900, and the A99ii is going to be announced in September. With that and the A7Rii and A7Sii they have a pretty frigging good bit of “Pro” gear. The A77ii is Pro-sumer with pro features with a less expensive ASPC sensor. It may not LOOK like what you consider to BE ‘pro’, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t. You might want to re-think what ‘pro’ is. Sony did.
Fanboys should note that he is bashing Nikon and Canon in the same manner (about sticking to the old formula when e.g. EVF and on-sensor focusing are clearly needed for the high-res sensors). He is just extremely direct about the frustrations related to any of the cameras. However, he is obviously very competent technically and good at spotting, understanding and communicating faults in cameras, so any reasonable manufacturer would read his articles very carefully.
Sony has the technical lead right now, but challenges in being taken seriously, while Nikon is stuck to the DSLR formula. Both companies have a great opportunity to leap ahead of others, or at least the market leader Canon. It won’t even require much more than listening to the critique and (if done right) one new round of products. If it’s true that Sony is talking to him, that’s a good sign for all of us photographers.
Diggloyd … maybe they should learn what *digital* photography is about !? Maybe also C-Nikon should also learn what true *digital* photography is about and will be about in the future. Only Sony and Panasonic/Leica seem to get it.
@diglloyd: please stick with Nikon 😛
Why are you pleading people to stick with Nikon? Oh, you don’t want to feel alone in a diminishing group who’ve found that it’s better to buy a Ford, than a Chevy with a Ford engine. Why people think it’s better to have their Sony sensor in a different brand camera is amazing to me (other than they think the name on the front makes them look more important.
Nikon is a decent, but overly priced (like Canon) for what you get. Sony knows that you have to put price value into a product as well as equipment/feature value. If people can’t afford it, it’s not going to sell as well, and with the dwindling income in photography, price is a huge concern.
In the hay-day of photography when ANYBODY with some decent skill could make not just a fair living, but a GOOD living at photography, those extra dollars for equipment were justified. In today’s market, when you can get the same results for a fraction of the equipment cost, it becomes more of a consideration.
Innovation and value are important, and Sony has provided both, while Canon and Nikon have been sticking with “old school” and only following what Sony has done when they see it hurting their market share. (and then only providing that at a higher cost)
I’d rather get the newest innovations NOW at a decent price than wait and pay more for it later.
Hej, not sure whether you understood my posting the way I wanted 🙂
If he is that unhappy with the results of Sony’s products he should stick with CaNikon.
I’m shooting with Sony a couple of years now and last year I went to full frame (A7) and never regret this.
[irony]Maybe I need some years to be at the level he is shooting at.[/irony]
The D810 and 5Ds and Q feel like “the real thing” because the “real thing” is something settled in people’s minds what cameras should be like because of the samples people have grown with.
My impression is that Sony wants to change the idea of what a camera should 1) look like and 2) behave like. The good side to this is that we can move forwards with more exciting designs (NEX 7 as prime example here) and new proportions (RX1) but it will harden a core group of photographers, of which Lloyd is not unique, to whom classic looking and classic feeling cameras are what cameras SHOULD BE LIKE.
Sony was heading in the right direction with the NEX 7 design. Something tells me that the solid sales of the OM-D Olympus made marketing think about shape (SLR-like) as a driving factor among many buyers, hence A7 series have centre EVFs. While you can’t blame Sony for following suit of a solid design, you can frown upon some aspects of the execution (button quantity, dial layout, etc) but you would be failing to still understand that if you go from one system to another, it isn’t unhealthy to think that your way of operating gear can also change.
Best example I have for that in the film era is the Contax line up of really modern cameras: G2 and AX. Both of these did the same as what other companies’s cameras did, but the way they did it was pure Contax mindset. G2 was a rangefinder-like camera, but you never engaged with it as a real rangefinder because the way it operated could not be the same as a Leica/Hexar/Ikon (read reviews of people demonising the G2 because it was not “a real rangefinder”…now it is an iconic camera. I had two of these. I miss them greatly) Same went for the AX, which was an AF camera for existing MF lenses. No, they were not the fastest, the most solid (because of the abundance of electronics) but they were unique and once you found your way around them, you could do anything you wanted to.
I never had a problem with the user menu. Really. I used Canon and Nikon in digital and Contax/ Ikon and Nikon in film. At once, when I saw that you could customise the buttons on the NEX 7 almost ad-infinitum, I knew I didn’t need to dig into the menu at all except to format the card. I worked with that camera for years and the menu was never an issue. Again, change brands, change modus operandi a bit and you’re good to go.
Sony is exactly like that and I am grateful for that.
The lossy compression, however, I do agree with Lloyd. There is no technical wall there in order to offer the choice for a lossless raw file. That’s simple. A900 had it, why not A7 cameras and RX1, RX100, etc?
Having used Nikon my whole life I can clearly see and understand where diglloyd is coming from. Trust me if Nikon was making an a7r i’d buy it from them instead. Presently I prefer the nikon menu, setup and speed but I find the size and weight more advantageous on the sony side. I wish the sony menu system was better, i wish i could really map any function to a buttons. we cried about this on the first gen A7R and they improved it but you still can’t map some things. we cried about a timer for bracketing and finally got it on 2nd gen. we cried about the shutter button location and it was improved. What really needs improving is menu system but most of all the firmware upgrade process. Twice my a7r has bricked while updating the firmware. one time on my mac it failed so bad i was forced to use a windows machine to get it update properly. in comparison with nikon, you simply put file on the memory card and within the menu in camera update, thats it. why can’t sony do this? The onliune support, message board and all that is an epix fail on sony. this needs improvement in a big way, presently it looks like it was maintained or run by a child as it truly terrible. there is only one place to send my camera for repair, which is precision camera here in texas. they repaired my camera but with no explanation at all, no one to talk to, zero feedback. I once broke a lens on my nikon, sent it in for repair and i got to speak to someone on the phone, got a progress report, detailed steps of what was replaced and done – in other words i know exactly where my money went. on the upside Sony seems to have an annual turn around for upgrades, they seem to offer mroe innovations year to year. whereas nikon still struggles with that nikon 1. I owned a nikon 1 and it was a fail. despite the flaws of sony for me its still worth it size. lighter, smaller plus ibis make it worthwhile but i really hope sony improves the menu system and the camera itself, i want it to be more robust, its very fragile, one drop and its game over vs nikon d800 which is a tank and due to its size prob is not fair to compare, just saying. hopinh they include 14bit raw via firmware update but lets not forget Sony is incredibly stingy when it comes to firmware features, they generally offer that in a next version of camera.
Maybe is true and Sony have no idea of photography, can be.
But what about Nikon or Canon? They really understand photograpghy and listen customers? Come on!! I’ve many friends which are Canonists or Nikonists which are selling their stuff, cameras, lenses and flashes to buy Panasonic, Fuji or Sony mirrorless.
They (Canikon) only continue with the same DSLR schema and don’t want to create a new one, based on the mirrorless schema. Why? is obvious that want to amortize and still use the chassis of EOS xxxxD and xD because they only focus in professional market, I mean Full Frame and APS-C cameras.
So please, if you really think that Sony has no idea or doesn’t understand photography, think twice.
I have to agree regarding their poor service and quality…my RX1 recently lost its focus ability, like many others and it was only on year 2. Sony referred me to some shady company that claims bogus flat rate repairs for around 300. They seem to forget about their previous products and focus on launching new gear every 6 months. They remind me of Samsung and how they are with their phones.
Though I have no experience w Sony repair, QC on lenses (decentering issues) needs to be addressed. Had to exchange my 55mm and 16-35mm. As for lossless raw, WE WANT that and we also want s raw lite option to shoot at lower mp in ff mode.
As opposed to Nikon who couldn’t put a camera together without the sensor being spattered with oil and dirt, or get the sensor in the right place so the focus was correct throughout, or so that it didn’t have the internal reflection…
Or Leica, who aren’t able to get their sensors to stay in one piece…
I wouldn’t for a moment suggest that Sony are fantastic, but very few of their products deserve the criticism they receive. They have weak areas, but so does every camera on the planet.
As to support, that could certainly be a lot better, but it isn’t cheap to set up a truly effective service and it may simply be that Sony hasn’t had the hard cash to do it.
As an aside, it is curious that expectations seem to be different from industry to industry. I have a watch that cost over £1000 (not particularly high up in the world of watches though) and it was not keeping the correct time. That is its only function, so rather disappointing that it couldn’t do it! The repair could take 3 months, but it seems that is fairly standard and I’m told that I’m being unreasonable to expect otherwise.
So I’d say Digilloyd needs a reality check!
To the guy who wrote this article: it’s “too” (harsh).
The the rest: criticism is good, and Sony does need some. Good to know someone’s making it. Fanboysm, though, is much worse and doens’t make the world evolve.
It sometime help yourself to be a moron. Let’s not forget that he does the same things for every product he is reviewing.
Well let’s not forget that here is here :
1. To create controversy,
2. To increase his subscriber list and get more $$$.
3. To increase the view count on his website.
That’s a clever but also dumb approach.
Work though. Got _us_ talking about it, including the Sony Fanboi Nation (SFN)
from:-
“[Sony is] A company that does not understand photography [and] make cameras that feel like camera imitations, not the real thing”
to
“no DSLR on the market in 2015 can approach this compelling mix of features. I like the A7R II and I will be buying one”
In 24 hours is disappointing…
Also “Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used” seems to be a very Sony critical article. 😉
The issue as you can see in this comment section is that whoever is biased against will always quote the first part.
While these pixel-peepers write reams and reams of click-bait articles moaning about one largely irrelevant nitpick after another, I (and many others) have been out taking photographs. Sure, Sony has room to improve, but so has every single camera that has ever been released. This hasn’t stopped photography from taking place then and it won’t now.
The only people who ‘don’t understand photography’ are wankers like Chambers who spend their time moaning about technical limitations instead of working around them.
Whether it is more perception or reality I am not certain…nor does it make much differrence in sales.
Canon users constantly complain that they would never buy a Sony camera because they are not durable/rugged/reliable enough to trust when thier livelihood depends on thier equipment working. That image is a real issue
I travel to photograph animals, and while traveling often visit zoos .
I carry a lot of equipnent, all covered in camo and it gets a lot of attention.
The majority of people that walk up to me say they did not know Sony made high end equipment
Most people in USA actually think one or more of these things.
Sony went out of the camera business
Sony only makes point and shoot cameras
Never heard of Sony camers.
The people I meet are typically in zoos as that is when I carry equiment, and I do not meet many people in wild places.
But MOST people that walk up to me in zoos are actually surprised to learn that Sony cameras even exist.
No matter how good your camera no one will buy it if they do not know you exist….!!!!
where is the link to the original article.. is is so complicated to post a good visible link to a source???
I think this is a joke honestly. Since I sold my 5d mk II and all my L lenses, I have for 1st time the feeling that a brand (Sony) DO understand really what photography is about. I have a FF camera (which IQ is much higher than any other mirrorless camera) in the smallest / lightest camera available on the market. The IQ with the dynamic range, the resolution, the high ISO is top notch (much better than Canon). The AF is spot on (no need to micro adjust every single lenses) and I can from a push of a button focus on the eye of a portrait. Now, with the A7R II, it offers the highest AF coverage, and tracking on any single point. IBIS allow to gain 3 stops of shooting envelope with prime without IS. The EVF allows me to see exactly what I will shot and reshoot right away if this is not good with useful information (zebras, focus peaking, horizon…). Automatic magnification allows me to pin point the focus. swivel screen to shoot above a crowd or on the floor. I mean, the A7 offers much more of what a photograph needs than any other cameras in a diminutive and light package. The RAW stuff has never caused me any problem. I post several examples of harsh conditions supposed to show artifacts but nobody has been able to see any artifacts, even well beyond what you could push out from a Canon RAW file.
And service (which I cannot comment on as Sony camera has not failed me yet) is important but has nothing to do to photography per se. So really, its is good that some still feel okay with the “old” way. But claiming that Sony has not understand photography means that nobody has.
Canon camera’s UI is hardly a usability standard.
How’s your 5x focus magnification? Mine is useless 🙁
Useless and pixelated
I do not understand the question ??? I can magnify x5 and then x10 from a push of a button. It allows me to take much more precisely focused pictures that what I was able with Canon, which was particularly annoying with a 85L and 135L where the focus was all other the place in front or behind the eyes.
I’m starting to think you don’t even own A7RII.
I’ll ask again, how’s your 5x focus magnification?
Mine is overcompressed, blobby, pixelated mess.
As if the worst quality JPG was being fed to it.
I always used 5x magnification with my previous Sony, specially with manual lenses.
A7RII is god awful at 5x magnification.
How’s yours?
I don’t have an A7RII and never claimed I do. I have an A7R (original version) and no, the compression is not overcompressed or blobby or pixelated. I would be very surprise that the A7RII would be worse than the I and I doubt that YOU have an A7R II. In all practical purpose, I have not seen any better way to focus accurately. And I have used Nikon D3 huge optical viewfinder, 5dmk II with different focusing screen and focusing with x5 magnification on the A7R is light years better than those OVF.
OF COURSE A7R DOES NOT HAVE THAT PROBLEM.
It is A7RII that has it, and makes it useless for manual focusing 🙁
Where did you read that ? Do you own an A7R II ? Excuse-me to doubt about it.
Why the fck would you write about A7R in an article that is about A7RII?!
While we’re on subject, how’s that shutter shock serving you on A7R? :-))
You did not answer to the question : do you own an A7R II ? Do you ?
I am commenting on an article that is complaining about A7 series not being made by photographers because of 1/ lossy RAW compression, 2/ Service 3/ poor product quality control and not being “the real stuff”.
Those things apply to all the A7 and not specifically to the A7R II.
I made my point that A/ none of those point has anything to do with taking photography and B/ in term of what matters for photographer, there is not one single other FF on the market offering that much (including Nikon D810).
I repeat my question : could you show us some pictures of your A7R II please ? With those RAW artifacts ?
“Why the fck would you write about A7R in an article that is about A7RII?!”
Pretentious much? The “article” is about a quote saying that Sony doesn’t understand photography, the a7rII being nothing, but an example.
In any case, after the shutter shock comment, it is pretty clear why you are here.
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. The a7rii 5x magnification issue is definitely present on the a7rii but not on the a7r. It uses different hardware and different firmware, so yes it is different. Yes, before you ask, I have an a7rii and only recently sold my a7r after using it extensively since early last year. The 5x magnification is a mess, Sony screwed up. People who don’t even have the camera defending Sony through pure speculation does not help get things fixed.
but at least you don´t forget to post your add crap under any article you qoute….
He’s very right. They’ve done a lot of innovative and potentially interesting things…and implemented none of them very well. They’re a consumer electronics company, not a professional photography company, and they seem unable to change that mindset. There are so many problems with ergonomics and operational integration with these things that could’ve been avoided just by spending 5 minutes with a real camera or by having a single photographer on the engineering team or by having their prototypes tested “in the wild” by a real photographer like Canon or Nikon do – but they obviously did none of those things.
And for those of you who think anyone who makes any criticism of Sony is a liar and a troll, here’s the post where Chambers says he’s buying an A7rII anyway because the advantages outweight the problems for most photographers: http://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150821_0000-SonyA7R_II-comments.html
Hey… you are supposed to buy a new Sony camera the next year… you can’t have the perfect one in your hands now.
@sonyalpharumors: did you delete my comment!?
Old paradigms are hard to break. My interpretation of this is, ‘Sony doesn’t feel like the old stuff.’
Who’s cameras are selling like hot cakes? Who’s cameras have pros switching, and even Kai saying “it’s bloody aw some?”
Photography is about a shutter, aperture and light. It seems like Sony has managed to fit an incredible sensor in a compact system with those three elements in mind. It’s not that Nikanon don’t make great cameras. It just takes them using bodies twice the size of a7rii.
we will just have to wait for these improvements in the new A7sII
“missing real lossless 14 bit raw”, need say more ???
No you don’t have to say more. It is unbelievable that Sony still doesn’t have it and yet it is marketing the camera “with 14bit RAW.”
Then show us your photos, where lossless RAW had mattered!
They are everywhere, DPReview, Flickr, Diglloyd, everywhere!
No, no, I am not asking a link to some pictures shoot on purpose with a 5 stops push, I am asking real word example from you.
So I repeat my simple question, show me just ONE single picture from you where it matters. Please, show ONE.
I am not waiting anything because, again, in 1 year that I hear about that, on any forum I have been, and posted example, no ONE single person has been able to show me one example where it impacted their pictures (and where a competitor would have made a better picture). I repeat, NOT ONE SIN-GLE PER-SON. Nada. Yope. Zero.
So i do not expect you to prove otherwise. This is the most persistent myth that are thrown on people scared of what Sony is doing.
And by the way, no, there is no pictures in Flickr and for DPreview, it is funny that you mentioned this when you can see that the Sony picture is showing the sign that you can recover when the Nikon one is just totally blown out. Not sure it is the right example to promote !
Exactly!
The 5-stop push IS valid, because with isoless sensors it doesn’t matter whether you push in post (to protect highlights) or use a higher ISO (blowing out highlights). It affects ME in a rare number of pics. Not enough to throw away my Sony, but I would like to have the OPTION for 14bits.
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8792409826/tech-in-sony-s-a7r-ii-and-why-it-matters clearly shows it, for example. You mistake the right picture for the Nikon, which it isn’t. The text refers to the linked city picture of the D810 (I think Rishi pointed that out within the comments). There numerous other threads you can easily dig out showing it in certain (rare) situations. Only because it doesn’t matter to YOU makes it a non-issue for others.
It is a non-issue. It is all fine and nice to say how it affects you and we don’t get it, but you are still showing us these three photos that rotate every time we have this discussion. For more than a year already. And we are still waiting to see that final output that is affected by that “issue”, not that 300% overprocessed crop.
14 bit RAW is a feature I personally don’t care about, because in my photography I would not see any difference.
And with my photography I would not see a difference between 42 and 36 mp as well. But nevertheless I want the 42mp version, because it is better.
And if I am willing to pay more money for a better sensor, so why not to say yes to a lossless RAW – especially if it is for free.
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150819_1136-SonyA7R_II-posterization-BlueLake.html
and it does not matter for real life photography. Only to pixel peepers that have nothing better to do.
Do you live off of photography? I do. If I present a client with shitty 11+7bit artefacts he will not be happy. So, even though not all pictures present the problem, I have to double/triple check every photo I deliver.
That’s just stupid.
Exactly. I’m so sick of crybabies wanting lossless RAW, when I’ve never seen anyone produce a real life example. The worst thing about is, that they’re stating outright “I’m never going to buy a Sony camera unless it has lossless”. Which is just incredibly dumb to have as a single criteria to pick a camera.
That’s not the point. The point is that decision to use or not the loss is mine, not Sony. For what use RAW files if the manufacturer decides how much loss is acceptable?
Ah, the entitlement nowadays.
Well, if you are not able to make an inform decision, I think it is best not to let your decision influence the making of the camera.
So as I ask in every forum where this is mentioned, please show me one of YOUR example where it could impact in real life even one out of 10 000 pictures. Until then, I repeat that you do not seem to be in the best position to make a decision on a subject that you have not experienced.
So just trust people that have shoot which have an A7x and have shoot with other FF.
Even at 1,000,000 photos, the decision is mine, the artist, not from a Japanese engineer.
Well, for sure your decision is yours not to purchase an A7. I have yet to meet someone moving from Canon DSLR to an A7 and regretting this choice though. I have no regret whatsoever. If you really believe that having to push +5 / +6 EV (see dpreview test) some area with almost black to white transition and blowing that at 100% is what you encounter and need to be able to do with your RAW file, I think that you have a bigger problem with photography in general than Sony…
Think again several times in your head, I repeat : > +5 to +6 EV, in very contrasty edges, showing potential artifacts only when displayed at 100% of a 42Mp file. Think again about that and ask yourself if you think this is real a valid criteria of choice compared to all other much more important issues you have with the different DSLR out there. And you will realize how idiotic is your reply.
I probably will not buy the A7 because I prefer to wait for a A99II if Sony does not forget its loyal consumers. But, spend a few thousand dollars in excellent lens for an engineer ruin everything is absurd.
So you persist to say that it would “ruin” your shoot ? Right ? Can you show some examples of pictures where you need and did that ? With your current gear ? I would impressed that you could prove your point…
Also, what do you expect from an A99II to have that the A7RII would not have ?
I did some pictures at sunrise in Hoi An Vietnam. A friend of mine, pro-photographer with formal cinema academic training, 25 years of experience in studio work and as assistant to several celebrity photographers was with me. After the shoot he took three of my RAW from the A7r and worked on the pictures. He was very much amazed and impressed at how robust these RAW were as he made several adjustments and even tested the files with extreme adjustments. So perhaps after all Sony has not got it all so wrong as some people claim… My friend shoots with Canon.
And my friend was also impressed by the A7r camera dynamic range. The pictures at sunrise present extremes in contrasts.
You are only assuming that it ll ruin your photo…
Also A99II will have lossy RAW too right? So what you going to do then?
On one hand, yes, it IS the point if the benefits of smaller files to the majority of people outweigh the insignificant impact of lossy raw to the majority of people.
On the other hand, why not just give people the option? Then everyone is happy.
It depends, if for you photo is just technique, then ok. For me it’s feeling, art and perception.
It seems that for Sony and for some this is only a technical issue.
Just google “Sony lossy raw photos” and select “images”. You will be able to make some determination as to wether the artifacts will effect your style of shooting. Some cameras aren’t for everyone. I thought that I needed the A7s because of it lowlight performance. But I couldn’t justify spending $2500 for it last summer. But I can now find them galore for only $1600. I am not giving up my glass though. The glass has more imput to your style and does the body. I may just rent the A7rII until that price comes down as did the A7s. It isn’t just about the IQ for me. I am slowly begining to see more sony fotos with character, not just IQ maybe because of the A7rII with Canon lenses. I may just rent an A7rII and put my glass on it. I just don’t like the Sony “greens”. But I don’t shoot a lot of foliage either.
Yes, please. Each time I have asked a user complaining about that, no ONE single person has been able to show it. No one.
You must live in la la land. Can’t you google? :-))
Again, see my comment below, looking at people taking extreme pictures with extreme contrast, pushing all the way to 5-6 stops the shadow and blowing those areas to 200% like it would be show on a billboard in the street, I have seen some (not many).
But any real life practical examples ? From someone having used the camera ? No ONE. Not ONE.
Sure, people like you that think that Nikon camera IQ is really superior, or even Canon users (what an irony this one !), I have read many. But people that have also used an A7x ? No, not one. It seems that today is still not the day where it will change because I guess that you will not be able to show me.
For me ? I don’t really care. I shoot 10 years Canon. I shoot more than 10 000 pictures with an A7R and honestly, IQ is so much better than it makes me laugh when people are complaining on the IQ which is what set Sony apart from Canon and in Nikon territory.
That is funny! Your non-issue is la la land.
“14 bits” refers to *LINEAR* analog-to-digital converter. If there were cost-effective way to generate same compression curves with non-linear 11 bit ADCs, they would happily use them.
Nope, no need to say more. I hope a firmware upgrade can resolve that
I can’t say any to the Sony Cameras, but I had many year’s ago a Sony Playstation. Also HIFI from Sony. All things from Sony witch I had in my life, was earlier faulty as from other big companies….But I ask you, I buy things from Sony because Sony has innovative new Technic and it’s not to much difficult to learn a new product. Nonetheless I’m further interesting for the a7sII
VS the Luminous Landscape guys that said Sony has made photography fun again.
Yeah but they actually go out and take pictures so you can’t take them seriously.
True, but I’d question that as well. Those Luminous guys are a bunch of tech junkies themselves. You can’t take anyone 100% seriously with reviews.
I still have fun using DSLRs as I have using Mirrorless. Does e.th. in life has to be fun?
The truth is, if Nikon made 810 with EVF and no stupid mirror, I would’ve been long gone for Sony.
That and in body image stabilization and the ability to design state of the art image sensors.
“I like the A7rII but only if had the Nikon badge on it.”
????!!! Why ?
All Sony E-mount lenses I have are above the quality level I am used from DSLR before. Raw compresession is what some people like to talk about but have never shown to me, an example were I could see an effect. Sony service is handled by service provider Geissler in Germany and working very well. I did not know Diglloyd so far. My first impression is that there in no need.
The criticisms are justified, based on my past experiences with Sony’s service, which are abysmal. I wonder if the pro-service they started will be any better, of if Diglloyd is even aware of it. As for the feel issues, it’s good for people to let Sony know what the cameras are missing. The A7R2 could be better, ergonomically, no doubt. Is it not a “real” camera? That’s a bit harsh, and unjustified, and maybe a bit elitist, the jealous rattlings of a jilted lover (Oh yeah? Well your new boyfriend has huge ears!).
IMO the best for eye level shooting zealots would be the camera with Pentax UI, but with
1) EVF
2) Touch screen to easy selection of focusing point like in GH4.
I doubt we will see the camera with usable modern style shooting with lesser degree of restrictions soon: for everyone who knows about even a bit about UI design asian == crap. I am afraid this will take a long time before they will manage to do something even remotely acceptable.
EVF with touch screen? 😉
Yes, it works great with panasonic cameras, much better than jerking off the joystick/pad/whatever.
I know about sony attitude on EVF vs touchscreen. It is shameful and prove the point these far east asian cultures are somehow incompatible with UI design. Hope they will realize it and hire quality UI designer (at least japanese and koreans, chinese and mongols are much better – one of the best capable UI designer I worked with was from Mongolia, chinese UI in their phones are quite acceptable too).
It’s just my opinion, but using my finger on the screen to focus on a 42mp pic is just not reliable enough for me. But If I can set the spot focus point to a new area with my finger, that could be faster then the joystick/pad/whatever.
Touch’n’drag will be
The touch screen focus is convenient but of limited use, great for video unless it’s a tight shot and OK in a fairly wide angel shot at mid to high F stops. For critical focus using a fast lens on a high resolution camera at close distance as in a studio portrait, almost useless.
Still, Pana&Oly have it and it’s praised by users. I’m sure if they had FF cameras serious photogs would not even mention Sony.
Not putting cheap touchscreen in a $3k camera is silly.
Yeah touchscreen is cheap but developing a touch interface isn’t…
The focusing point has the same size irrelevant how mp the camera has…. More mp suggests more focusing accuracy around Z-axis, not x-y…
There’s a chance with the new Pentax FF. Unlikely to have EVF, but touch screen and Pentax UI is a easy bet.
Kinda weird that no DSLR maker came up with something like the hybrid viewfinder on Fuji X100, shouldn’t be that hard to make a moving focus screen for that.
Customize your camera and you don’t need a touch screen for focus point selection.
I should expect to see yet another person with his unique ability to get used to crap who is teaching others about “set up it first”. I am afraid I saw clowns like you too much, to appreciate such a POV: the junk is a junk, no matter amount of effort wasted into “proper” setup.
Is there any reason to offend me?
I am neither a clown, nor am I such a person accepting inconveniences by simply whitewashing them.
I saw guys like you too much, complaining about camera functionalities which they can’t judge appropriately because they likely don’t own the camera they are complaining about, or they are too heavy-handed to get it properly set.
If you prefer touch screen, and you don’t get it with this camera then there is also no reason to complain about functionality not working like you want it, because of that.
As for the current A7R2 – set focus selection to the butten of the click wheel. Pressing it, and you can move the focus point where you want to. Shall be fast enough, and can be operated without taking the camera off the eye.
The issues with Sony are real to varying extents, but his website makes it difficult to take him 100% seriously.
I’ve just tried following some of the DigLloyd site and it’s an absolute mess. The parts you can read (people seriously subscribe to this site so they can read more?) are seemingly thrown on to the site at random according to what the author feels like blurting out at the time.
The other problem is that he doesn’t seem to be fully briefed in terms of technology. Just read his article on IBIS and claims that pitch/yaw correction results in a non-parallel focal plane.
Maybe that’s why he’s complaining about asymmetrical lenses? The Internet is the wild wild west. So much stuff out there and not everything is actually credible. So I look at sites like dpreview, popphoto, Imaging Resource, Camera Labs for information. The blogs are great, but sometimes, the stuff posted is comical.
Can’t understand why he need to only quote comments that agree with him, this is childish.
Maybe the harsh words are polarizing a little bit, but in the end he’s right with his criticisms.
Many of the functional dislikes are not valid for my style and usage, but like him I don’t accept premium products having built quality issues they should not show.
Ever since the E mount has been introduced those centering (skew) defects occurred on all types of lenses. During my NEX7 journey I returned/swapped quite a lot lenses (35/1.8, 24/1.8, 1018, and my record breaker the 1670Z three times).
In my current setup I needed to swap the 35/2.8 one time. Batis 25, 55Z18, the 90 macro and the 70200G4 were fine from the start.
I am not doing lab tests – a time ago during a workshop I learned a simple five shot centering check from a tripod.
I, too, had decentering with the 24mm 1.8. In initially thought it was the body (NEX 7) so I sent that in. Sony replaced the whole front assembly and the decentering was still there (left quarter of image was really blurry) so I sent the lens in and they replaced the internal module and kept the outer shell.
In my experience, though, Sony UK were great. Posted body on Monday and got it back the following Monday. Phone support was very good as well.
really wished Sony US had the same service, rather, I believe they had customer service people from their no longer exist Vaio department answering phones on their camera product when I called in asking about process of my lens repair (over 2 months with no response).
That is why I say they should add sensor-tilt… Besides it’s primary use, It can mitigate centering issues somewhat.
No, he isn’t. He is comparing it to Nikon and implying that their quality is better. It isn’t. Also, what is a “premium product”? NEX-7? 35mm 1.8? 10-18? Come on, I have all of those and they are excellent, but hardly premium. In line or cheaper than the mirrorless competition.
I don’t agree it comparing to Nikon. I meant to agree that the amount of occuring faults is tremendously too high.
My rating? – Please base it on cheap/premium/highend – pricing.
But it doesn’t matter if it comes down to what it is – confirmed failed quality control.
And even cheap lenses are supposed to be failureless exgo factory.
The fact that cheap lenses have higher built tolerances is no excuse for misconcepting either the product or the quality process.
That is true and should be addressed. But singling out Sony is nothing but a clickbait, because every company has issues.
Never mind to say 24/1.8 should not exist in the first place? Canon did it small, Leica did.
…..
isn’t Batis 25 made by Cosina?
I guess so.
Btw, Cosina is a very good example on how to adapt customer quality expectations to their manufacturing processes – and meet it.
And Feraari said Lamborghini is good for only making Tractors , see now where they are. All this is horse shit , people will use what they want to , those who want DSLR will buy dslr.
+1 ! Yes !
I have yet to see the perfect camera. And probably never will. Though my old Minolta XD-11 feels good in the hands and was a great photographic instrument. Minolta also brought out the 9xi, ahead of its time, also a great photographic instrument, but boy, it was not always “intuitive.”
Sony Laredo was MUCH better than Precision (here in the U.S.). They repaired things quite well. I’ve said it earlier. Sony – stop outsourcing a key component of your product life cycle (repair) and bring back the great Sony customer service people that were based in the U.S. The cost cutting that Sony (and other companies) performs is usually targeted at the later stages of their product development/sales/support chain. Precision is not as good as Sony Laredo. Not even close. Sony, do something about Precision.
The cameras themselves are great. Sure you can nitpick about a lot of things. I can say, though, that Sony has served me well.
If you use the camera for 10hours in a row permanently for events, every small thing shows up. For us start up time and wake-up time from sleep for example, button and menu layout to change settings, time to review images, zoom to 100% focus point (only now addressed as far as I know with A7rii), focus point change (much faster with DSLRs, still needed when eye AF does not work), initial focus acquisition (still snappier in bad light in my opinion if you don’t use a 35/1.4), 2 SD card slots, memory banks, crappy SD card door, dust+moisture resistant (I had my Sony fail me once in stronger fog) … You can work around this, but why not do it similarly in the first place? If, however, one calls a camera professional because we can use it to create professional results, you are right.
Well, that is what I mean, i.e. “to create professional results”. And let’s not forget that shooting events is only a single aspect of photography. What about landscape? I would gladly take the smaller and lighter camera, and the EVF, even if it means no weather sealing (overrated imho) and slower operation. Horses for courses. Although I’d have to agree, I would prefer to have weather sealing than not 🙂
It never ends with diglloyd continually picking at every little thing to increase the clicks to his site. Recently he is getting worse with his absurdities. I think the fungus that’s killing the rattlesnakes has made it into his log cabin in the middle of nowhere. I’ve just deleted all references to him and no longer will go to a site. Who need him?
Do any of these ‘raw diggers’ ever go out and… you know, take photos?
Other than astrophotography, who does this actually affect?
I think it’s like heroin for haters.
Yup. And I’m sure that A7rII is just horrible for astro as well… /
Most definitely. I bet the images will be horrible when downscaled for web or when printed.
I am regularly affected by the compression when editing. Changing luminosity for a specific colour range (hue) makes compression artefacts painfully visible.
Show us your final output that is affected, please.
Could you share an example please ?
You can reproduce it easy for yourself. Take any form of landscape picture.
Decrease the brightness of the blue parts of the sky in lightroom. (Or whatever floats your boat..)
And than you will very likely see blocking caused by the compression.
This is something I usually do before converting the pictures to black and white. Doing a good conversation usually makes matters worse.
Strange, have shoot more than 10 000 pictures the same way I did with my Canon and have still to see what you are seeing. I am using Capture One Pro for Sony and have never encounter this issue.
I am really surprise to the amount of people lying on this forum and others regarding A7 series.
The compression artifacts only materialize with a +5/+6 EV push on areas where ADJACENT pixels have an extreme brightness difference (more than 11 bits). How can adjacent pixels from a blue sky be 2048 times brighter or darker than the one a few pixels apart ?
Also, in what kind of scene you would expose to prevent highlight burn where a blue sky would still require a +5 EV push to appear normal ?
Obviously, this is utterly impossible and bullshit so Wintermute obviously does not possess any A7 camera.
I am starting to wonder why I see more and more people like Wintermute, Vagner or others claiming that they have the camera while they don’t. Either they are competitor employees (and it is highly unethical but would show how scared competitors are) or worse, it is just people with severe mental “issues”…
Yep, I’ve seen that, but you’re barking up the wrong tree with that one.
Artifacts when over-egging the luminance slider aren’t any less painful with uncompressed/lossless RAW files, such as those from a Nikon D8x0. It’s simply one of those sliders where you have to watch that you don’t overdo it, on any camera.
Then you are regularly doing something terribly wrong. Is the shadows slider locked in the maximum position on your copy of Lightroom? Sloppy use of controls can destroy an image, Digilloyd has demonstrated that.
You just made me think about meaning of “raw digger” 😀
If that so, I am happy that sony don’t understand photography, or we would stuck with the companies that understand, with old bulky dslr.
Your comment makes no sense. How did you reach the conclusion that “companies that understand photography” equates to “dslr”?
Yeah, Sony did understood what photography is when Alpha 900 showed up with its amazing pack of Zeiss lenses. Sadly they have forgotten soon after. But let them get back.
I found your lack objectivity disturbing. I’ve being a DSLR shooter for 5 years. Not much but enough to realize that there is no reason to keep my 5D and switch to Sony’s A7R2. Dynamic Range, 4K, IBIS… I mean who cares if there is a slight compression on a 42mp RAW file, really!? Pixel peepers don’t shoot and don’t have a life, they troll.
I have used Nikon for 38 years and while I think Nikon was and is one of the best camera manufacturers of DSLR I am now a happy user of the A7II and can’t wait for my A7RII.
Sony has brought back the reason I became a photographer.
DigiLLoyd is just trying to sell his website.
I have used the Nikons for years then Canon for years, when the Sony a7R came i was happy, and not A7rII i am just happiest.
It is all about the right tool for what you do, I think sony has brought lots of innovation and progress that make me enjoy going out and photograph.
If anyone likes the Leica Q just use that… and be quite
My two words on service:
nikon NPS : the nikon Pro Service for me was a joke, nikon outsources repairs and it was terrible (No idea what it is now, I move on to canon for this reason) i had 3 D1x for the only reason that they would need service and the turnaround time was 4-6 weeks, some times not even fixed.
Canon Pro services: Canon has done the best job on repair service, 2-4 days and any lens and camera is back functional A+
I had to send a Flash into sony, turnaround 5 Weeks , not good.
Then Sony Pro Service came around , $100 if you qualify and 3-5 turnaround . sounds good , i got my welcome box, and the have email me about making payments, but i have not be able to connect back to anybody, maybe they are still not up to speed.
Agreed about Canon CPS, best in the business. Nikon NPS, worst in the business. SONY Pro, yet to be experienced!
Does Diglloyd distinguish between “standard” consumer support and “Pro Support” (which is also available in US) when comparing with Nikon’s and Canon’s support? Apples and oranges?
Does his a comparison take into account the ratio of support cases and sold items?
The ratio of support cases for the D800/D800E was propably a nightmare for Nikon. In my case, the Nikon support was “professional” but could not solve the real problem with the AF module that was unable to cope.
There’s no doubt sony is great with technology (I love the IQ of my A7r), but of the various cameras I have and have had (everything from Canon dslrs to an M9 to a Fuji x100), it’s probably the least fun to use. Terrible hardware and UI design. It feels like a machine in a bad way, whereas my 5D2 felt like a machine in a good way, and it doesn’t have that something special like a Leica or Fuji. And don’t get me started about their repair service, which was just an awful awful experience.
If your photography business includes motion, then Sony are a great way to go. If, like Lloyd Chambers, your business is merely talking about photography, then Sony are a great way to generate traffic. You understand what he’s doing here right? If you are a serious still shooter with no intention of shooting motion, then go buy a 5D3, even Ken Rockwell understands and speaks to this salient point.
DigLloyd is merely click-bait for weekend hobbyists!
http://www.cinema5d.com – beginner to advanced videography/filmmaking
http://www.newsshooter.com – video journalism from working journalists
http://www.luminous-landscape – time-served & experienced photographers (having fun)
http://www.fredmiranda.com – higher-end hobbyist photography
http://www.diglloyd.com – click-bait, posturing and charts
http://www.kenrockwell.com – same as diglloyd, but at least he can shoot a little, and shows off his book/credentials.
Nice!
Anyone really thinking that Diglloyd understands photography????
In my humble opinion he is the most stupid of all reviewers and know nothing about cameras or photography at all.
The guy does not even read the manuals and posts complete rubbish ….then continues to post rubbish although he is in error and still does not understand the manual or the camera….how come everyone can MF with Sony cameras and prefers them to any other camera for MF and Diglloyd cannot???
Completely agree with you.
+1 Krill
He’s oblivious to industry changes, because he’s never been part of the industry. Zebras, peaking & EVF’s are essential to shooters going forward, as are simplified audio workflows. Its the forward thinking person who’s buying into Sony right now, not the OTUS loving wannabe of yesteryear!
As far as stupidity goes it is IMO quite hard to beat Steve Huff…
They are aware of everything he said. But “a company that really does not understand photography.” this doesn’t add anything, it’s just whining.
That’s not the issue people have with Diglloyd. Sony cameras have problems, sure. However, I can cite issues for every brand out there, while this guy makes it sound like the D810 is some sort of a perfect camera. So, yes, that is exactly “hating on Sony”. And don’t get me started on non-issues like the compression.
What is the problem with the histogram? Mine is accurate enough and I can display RGB in review mode.
The particular issue Diglloyd laments about Sony is the lack of uncooked 14-bit RAW, which was prompted by this shot: http://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150819_1136-SonyA7R_II-posterization-BlueLake.html
I don’t think he’s claimed the D810 is a perfect camera anywhere, but I would agree with him that Nikon did get their image processing right, which Sony have refused to do. The fact that Sony ignored the complaints on the a7r betrays the fact that they don’t understand why certain customers would want better RAW. That’s a pretty fundamental issue that should be very easy to fix and is fair to criticize, and this sort of criticism will only result in Sony upping their game. It’s not like adding uncooked 14-bit RAW is somehow a massive burden that will result in hugely increased costs for everyone – it’s just an arbitrary decision Sony has made not to implement it in the firmware, much like many of their questionable firmware decisions.
I find the live histogram tends to show overexposure on shots that aren’t overexposed, which makes it difficult to really know whether highlights are blown out or not, and if so, whether it’s in any particular channel since it’s not RGB. Yes I can look at it in review, but I think it should be fairly obvious why that isn’t a great solution. The point is, why have a live histogram if it’s crippled – why not just make it work right, which takes very little effort?
“I like the A7R II a lot in various ways, but what I want to see is Nikon D810 quality in the compact form factor Sony A7R II”
The meaning of what I said was clear, even if I sued the word “perfect” and he didn’t.
As to the raw compression “issue”, do not get me started. While I do agree that it is quite probably easy to fix, I do not consider it a real problem for any type of shooting. No one has proven otherwise – to clarify, by proving, I mean shooting properly and then printing or displaying on a screen. If people want a fix, by all means, they should ask Sony to do it, but blowing it out of proportion like many are doing here is preposterous.
For the histogram, I see what you mean. Although, mine seems to be relatively consistent, so I’ve gotten used to it. However, I have never seen a camera with a proper histogram – they are all off to some extent. But yes, easy to fix.
To conclude, I have no issue with people wanting fixes. I do however with overblowing said issues and comparing to Nikon and Canon, and saying that they are somehow better. I’ve shot all of these and they all have issues. Diglloyd is simply creating a clickbait, as usual.
Why does anyone care what Diglloyd says anyway, he’s just one person with an opinion. His opinions don’t effect cameras or photography in the least.
Maybe Sony learnd a few things from the past. But certainly not fixing stuff by firmware upgrade.
Who does that anyway? Except Fuji with their half-baked cameras, of course.
Also – apart from the bugs and quirks – Sony: Fix the idiotic menu!
Look, I appreciate the new cameras, have two a7RII’s and RX10II, and a7II and a7R. They’re awesome in many ways. Have many EMount and AMount cameras.
I hate the tiny grips of EMount, literally causing me to shoot with second joint of index finger, rather than tip. Difficult when the button has less tactile feedback between AF and shoot.
Middle finger knuckle is chaffed raw because RX10II aperture ring bites into it. Same thing for Metabones adapter on a7RII. I mean seriously, it’s painful, awkward, and off balance. Forget about gloves. I’m just an average size 5’9″ man.
Every Sony camera I own has a different menu. Confusing and frustrating.
Custom buttons have different abilities between cameras. Like using different brands.
Example: a7RII center wheel button is smart, so can control AF point when in AF, but knows to switch to magnifier when in MF. But RX10II center button cannot do that. It remains AF selector even when MF is used, useless for magnifier. Must use different CF button. Same relationship can be said between a99 and a77II.
RX10II zoom cannot function after AF locks. It’s like a moveable prime lens, rather than a zoom. This includes AF-C… can’t zoom the dang lens while tracking action. Silly and frustrating.
The new cameras have great tech and shoot excellent IQ. But Sony needs to learn some lessons about ergonomics and user experience. The inconsistencies are mind boggling between cameras. It’s like they’re made by different departments and no one has any concern for consistency across the brand. This mentality makes it just as attractive to add a Panasonic or Fuji camera into the mix. Have to learn new buttons and menus anyway. Why not just mix brands?
Still, two of the most important functions are not available in quick menu or CF buttons. Can’t assign APS-C or Settings Effect to any quick. Must menu dive every time. Need those settings to change between studio and location work. Makes me wonder if Sony ever uses their cameras before shipping them out.
The battery life on a7RII is the worst. But surprisingly the RX10II battery life is better. Used it in studio yesterday. Got 870 shots writing RAW and JPG with one and half batteries. Not bad compared to EMount, which only gets 710 shots on two batteries inside VG.
Want Sony to implement the latest tech with more professional and robust philosophy. I don’t know if they’re capable of thinking that way.
Could careless about 14 bit raw, I’ve lived through lower image quality with Nikons years ago so in that respect I only care about the image and whether I like what the camera can do… but I will agree that Sony’s customer service is not on par with that of Nikon’s service… I’ve had the misfortune of being forced to use both for various camera in the past and the Nikon service was way better than the Sony… With Sony it was, spend lots of time on the phone before being told okay we’ll send you a special box to ship it to us in, and then after you wait for that box to arrive you send it in and a few weeks later you get it back… That’s almost a month of time pissed away because they can’t just email you a prepaid fedex label and send you a replacement ASAP… and the annoying bit was the camera I sent wasn’t the one I got back it was a different one because the serial numbers didn’t match… If they were going to just send me a refurb or new camera (not sure which it was) they didn’t need to take weeks to do it. So yeah… I can agree with Sony needing better customer service…
It is interesting though how different customer service experiences are depending on the country and sometimes even in different parts of the same country.
Nikon is less a tech company than Sony is less a photography company. I don’t see any innovation from Nikon – not in the 50 years or so – they might have a good mirrorless in another 50. Me, sold the Nikon and not looking backwards anymore (nor living in the past)
I don’t get all this “not living in the past” biz. Nikon makes solid cameras- period. They all do. The mirror isn’t antiquated. It’s gone through 3 decades of refinements. Advantages over EVF’s are overstated (they are there, but certainly overstated). D750 is a rather small camera and they’re trying to put more up to date features some of us still find useless- but the market demands.
If you switched that’s great. It doesn’t mean you have to trash the living room on your way out. All these manufacturers have their strengths and at least we have options.
I find EVFs to be superior in pretty much every way, with the obvious exception of battery life, but there’s an easy workaround. DSLRs are most definitely antiquated.
The D750 is only a smaller camera when compared to other FF DSLRs.
I would say that advantage of mirror is now almost null instead.
EVF has now a refresh rate and black out time that is not anymore an issue while offering so much advantages : 100% coverage, bigger viewfinder, WYSIWYG (especially in low light), automatic magnification, zebras for highlight, focus peaking, horizon, all kind of info display, review easier in sunlight, more reliable…
There is honestly no good reason anymore for an OVF and Nikon is doing so just because designing a FF and APS-C mirrorless from scratch (with a lens collection taking advantage of the shorter flange distance) is such a hell of a work that they do not have the courage for it.
The reflex mirror design debuted in 1948 in the Retaflex Italian camera and used in the Zeiss Ikon VEB Contax S of 1949 so it’s more that 6 decades old. I doubt it will be in general use beyond the next decade. Call it what you want but it is very old and soon the be antiquated.
I do agree that Canon, Nikon and others make very solid cameras. As an EVF user that used OVF for more than a few decades, I consider it an improvement and superior overall especially when directly comparing it to my OVF cameras. And the EVF will only improve with time while the OVF has reached its peak performance many years ago.
Well, seems to work. Virtually silent on many Nikon and Canon cameras from what I’ve tried (Not the D750 unfortunately.) I do agrewe with you about it’s future though.
have you ever tried a top level medium format viewfinder, like from a hasselblad or pentax or rolleiflex? its just wonderful and you may be right: its not getting any better for sure. From my short experience with the A7s, the viewfinder needs like half a second to turn after it’s raised to the eye.
Most of our cars have been powered by internal combustion pistons engines burning hydrocarbons with varying level of sophistication since 1885… That is 130 years ago and we are yet to consider this type of engine obsolete… The cars powered by these engines still provide a lot of services and enjoyment to many all over the world. The same applies to the reflex mirror. It is not because some mirrorless cameras deliver high image quality and faster and faster auto-focus that the mirror and the optical viewfinder are obsolete. I would say the same about the Leica rangefinder. Why would these be obsolete if many people still enjoy their use for whatever reasons they may have ? The choice of a camera is a matter of objective _ what is one looking to do with it _ and individual personal preferences. Why would someone impose a design x to a whole industry ? As a user I am happy to be able to choose amongst an array of very different cameras, if all were identical then buying a camera would become a rather stale affair…
Reality is the body is only one piece, and quite frankly the bodies are all becoming so close that they are approaching the point of being a commodity that doesn’t really matter whether it is a Sony, Nikon or Canon in terms of image it can produce… But the lens is the big weakness of Sony, and the only reason they are getting headway with their mirrorless is that people can use other lenses with that weren’t Sony’s… I think on mine I’m probably using Sony glass maybe 20% of the time the rest of the time I use glass from other camera makers and adapters… And even the good glass from Sony isn’t apparently designed by Sony… To me Sony not putting enough money into the lens business is their greatest weakness long term because when bodies become a commodity and the other manufacturers throw out their own mirrorless cameras (which will happen eventually) then the lens will be where Sony could lose the war.
hahaha, sure, Sony lenses or native FE lenses are a “big weakness”, lol.
Strange that the FE 55mm f/1,8 is the best 50mm on the market shy from the 4000$ MF Otus. That the Batis 85mm is also as better than the Canon L and Nikon one and almost also as good as the OTUS while having IS.
Strange that the Sony 16-35mm is better than the Nikon one and at least better than the Canon on the body it was tested so far (yet to see on the 5DS).
Strange that the 90mm macro is the best 90-100mm macro for the current time being.
Strange the 35mm f/1,4 is the best of all the competitors.
Honestly, if there is what thing you can say, it is that lenses are not cheap, but lack of quality is not the problem here, quite the contrary.
Best is relative. Sigma Arts are certainly in the same ballpark as the 551/.8, and 35/1.4. Rendering is another thing and highly subjective. Your examples are certainly extremely good lenses, but also extremely pricey. I bought the 85/1.8 Batis and it is an excellent lens (due to lack of CAs, for example). But it is more than 3 times the price of our 85/1.8g (which is really good, too), the 35/1.4 is 2.5 times the price of the Sigma Art. Not everyone is able to buy an A7rii with 85/1.8, 55/1.8, 35/1.4 and 90mm macro. This is why I think there should be an intermediate native lens line at lower prices (like the 28/2). But to Sony’s credit, they achieved quite a lot within the recent two years.
The original argument was that Sony’s lens side is weak. Sigma lenses also exist in Sony mount.
Also, how is the 55mm 1.8 “extremely pricey” when it costs 50 bucks more than the Sigma you mentioned? it’s only the 35mm that is pricey. As to the 85mm Batis vs the 85mm Canon, come on. We compare lenses just based on aperture now?
You are simply arguing a different issue here – Sony not having cheaper lenses.
I think you’re right about those intermediate lenses. But I can understand that Sony chose to bring the good ones first, to show what the FE system is capable of. They will release cheaper lenses in time.
Maybe I misunderstood Yirmin who was saying that “Sonly lenses is a big weakness” and I considered that as related to IQ.
First, if you compare the prices just based on the marked aperture, this is not the right metric. I had a Canon 50mm f/1,4, 85mm f/1,8 and 85L.
First, the 50mm f/1,4 does not have a transmission of 1,4 so is more a true f/1,6-f/1,7 lenses in term of speed. Second, the IQ of the Sony is just in a complete other league as the Canon one. Yes, you can shoot at f/1,4 with the Canon but it is not sharp at all and only improve after f/2.
So comparing the Sony with a 80$ 50mm f/1,8 is really not making sense at all. And I think everyone aknowledge that.
Also, if the Batis (which I do not have) is as good as it seems to be, I am sure it is also light years above the Canon 85mm f/1,8 (very good lens in its price range by the way).
Then, if you compare 3rd party price (Sigma) with OEM, the comment is a general one and you could say also that the Canon 85L, the 50L are totally overpriced so it is not really an argument for Sony per se.
Then, through an adapter, nobody prevent people to use Canon or other cheaper lenses on the Sony. The body being cheaper (like the A7II) to equivalent DSLR body, it pays off for the adapter.
The 90mm macro is one of the sharpest lenses ever measured by DXO, not just in the macro category. And I can attest to that fact, I got one a few weeks ago and its incredible even wide open.
You are forgetting that Canon and Nikon already released their own mirrorless cameras. What makes you think that something in the future will be any better? The innovative Df that lacks video?
You are also forgetting that the a7 line was released less than two years ago and while not complete, it already has some of the best lenses out there.
Nonsense; “all bodies are becoming so close” perhaps Nikon and Canon but not Sony. If the bodies are “so close” why can’t other manufactures lenses be adapted to Nikon and Canon? The latest FE lenses are excellent, some are best in class. If they are made by Zeiss, Sony or anyone else why does it matter.
If it isn’t made by Sony, then Sony isn’t making the money from it… as simple as that. If the best lenses for any camera are made by other manufacturers then the camera maker is losing a revenue stream, that’s how they lose the war because the war is over revenue.
The other lenses can’t be adapted to Nikon or Canon easily because the flange to film distance has to be short enough on whatever camera you want to use an adapter on that you can put an adapter between your lens and body and get the right distance. Do you know anything about camera? Because that is a pretty basic concept and the whole reason that Sony’s mirrorless is able to adapt to most every lens, it has a very short flange to film distance that allow you to put about any adapter you would need on it.
Unbelievable whining from Diglloyd. Sony understands photography perfectly well. Diglloyd’s real problem is that Sony hasn’t made the A7RII perfect. So what? Despite it’s shortcomings it’s still one of the finest cameras ever made. As for the asymmetry of some Sony lenses, that’s news to me. I read all the major photo blogs and this is the first I’ve heard of it. He does, however, have a point about Sony’s service. It sucks. There’s no point in sugar coating it. Great cameras, weak service. So until Sony makes the perfect camera and gives us the service we deserve, I will have to settle for merely making great looking photographs with my A7RII.
DPR forums are full of the issues with Sony lenses. It has been going on for some time.
Diglloyd should be the last person any camera company should listen to, he’s nothing but a crackpot looking for attention.
Like someone previously noticed, Sony’s strategies are pretty much Samsung-like. No major firmware updates yet, not a serious one that I’ve noticed. And that’s a poor strategy, sadly. And second hand market gives you some ideas in which way that 6-months cycle strategy works out on our side of the stick. Quite bad.
I think he needs to take a closer look at Nikon and Canon as far as innovation, with the amount of problem their cameras have. Take Nikon for instance from the D90 on to the current generation, every camera had some form or mechanical issue not just software related. Canon on the other hand knows how to build a good camera, but their sensors have fallen on the way side. At the end of the day I look at how reliable the camera is, and to produce the image I have in mind. If it can that all I look to. If Digloyd has issue with Sony, the same can be said about every camera manufacturer out there if not a lot more.
Canon knows how to make cameras because they’ve barely changed their body designs in ages. It’s abvious that that’s an advantage over Sony who created a whole new line of camera, more or less twice in 2 years already (the IBIS A7’s are a new design still).
If I were starting from scratch, I would pick Sony over the two reigning champs. Who, by the way, would like to see the world stand still.
From my personal view the Sony A7 series looks nice with all the features in a small package but when it comes down to reliability and ruggedness, responsiveness and a good viewfinder (that doesn’t need half a second to go from black to showing an image) there is still no way around nikon and canon.
Nothing wrong with innovation of course, but since i switched from A850
(you may or may not have heard of it) to a Nikon D800 I feel that it’s a much
nicer tool in every aspect with no downsides compared to the A850,
except maybe the grip of the A850 having a better fit for my larger
hands. I’m happy that Nikon uses sony sensors because they’re superior
what canon is offering at this point. If you want the “real thing” by the means of a pro workhorse your best bet is to go with nikon and the d800 and d4 series.
I started from scratch. I chose Sony. I love my A7II.
Sony isn’t trying to be CaNikon, no matter how much Digiloyd wants that to happen. Sony is doing things neither one of the big 2 can touch. And the gap between them is getting wider. It won’t hit Lloyd until Nikon goes bankrupt – which will only be a few years away if things don’t turn around for them.
If I go to the local photography store and talk to the apprentice or to photography students they get this dreamy look when I say something about the A7-series and they ask me “How is it?!” (if they don’t have the money to buy one) or “I love this camera” (if they could affort one) (most time the A7S and in the last month also the A7RII)
Most of them are interested not only to photography but in video aswell. And they are used to low light photography due to smartphones while going out.
That’s a new generation and they are bored of birds, wildlife or sport. Because you can download already any perfect made picture. Except those where your friends are on.
So I copy Chris: Sony isn’t trying to be CaNiko.
Nikon is not going to bankrupt. Sony did win a lot of entry level users but those people aren’t major income source for Canikon. You can just look at android and ios market. Entry level users don’t contribute much to sales.
“but those people aren’t major income source for Canikon.”
Say what?! Despite nearly every entry-level DSLR on the street being either a Canon or Nikon, they aren’t a major income source. Yeah, OK.
A pro can wear out a d4s annually or several in a major event like olympics. Tuning service are frequently used after or before major assignments.
How many d4s would those major users you mention would buy in 10 years….. Those who never get beyond kit lens.
Just don’t forget many of us don’t get passed 10k frames per year. There are many shots 1000 frames on one day so they need new gears very frequently. Those are not casual users.
Think of it. Why sony wants you to buy a new camera every year? If you buy one camera and done with it for 10 years it means little to Sony.
I think Nikon runs into very big problems. DSLR is Nikons major business field – and DSLR market is shrinking and Nikon shows no alternative product path.
Entry level DSLRs are the cashcow of Nikon and Canon-photography. Of course Nikon earns money with highend products, but not as much as with entry level stuff.
Well real pros wear out a d4s annually. Those guys get keep biting bullets and heavily reply on nikon’s professional services. And actually nikon earns more from lens, if you happen to check their financial repprt.
I think it’s quite obvious what direction the camera market is going, and that is away from the DSLR configuration. If Nikon and Canon wait too long to develop a high quality full frame mirrorless system it could spell disaster.
Sony’s imaging products are disruptive to the industry, IBIS, full frame compact mirrorless bodies etc. Diglloyd being a traditionalist doesn’t like that Sony is rocking the boat. The fact that he’s mired in the past does not effect anyone else, he can rant all he wants but it’s not going to change the future direction of photography.
Innovation? Yes. Disruptive? No.
Both actually………..
What could be serious Innovation? In-body TS would be — gets more detalization helping to get around DOF/aperture issues. Sensor Z-shift would be — gets (some, apparently can be enough) AF with manual lenses), can speed AF if native lens AF is slow (dual actuator concept).
+IBIS is perfectly compatible with DSLR; A900 was eight years ago!
+marginally more megapixels/high ISO? This sensor will appear in Nikon cameras, just a few months.
+silent shutter? Why? people like shutter sound, feels like a “pro” camera.
-Sony doesn’t even provide faster fps for A9RM2 even sensor allows so.
-PDAF with apertures smaller than f/8 not present
About the disruptive part, time will tell, but I agree with Emph.
Thank goodness Sony aren’t copying us, we’re clueless, we’re loosing our bread & butter still clients to Canon, and still/video clients to Sony.
If all you guys would read his articles you would realize he is trying to push Sony to not hold back and beat Canikon. If anything he is more of a Sony fan than other brands and wants Sony’s camera tech to match their sensor tech because he prefers their evf system.
Do I have to pay to read his articles?
Because of all the things that are going to happen, me paying to read some guy’s gear review site is going to happen the least.
The problem is that he has a narrow view of what people want. I don’t know if following his advice would necessarily be a good thing.
I mean, yeah, they need to figure out repairs and customer support to make real progress in the professional (i.e. paid photogs) market. That doesn’t take Lloyd to figure out, though.
Diglloyd gave me a good laugh on this – thx Lloyd!
Sony gave us RX1, RX100, RX10 all new kind of cameras, Also Nex-7 and A6000 small ILC APS-C cameras. And we have the A7 cameras line. Last year we have seen a couple of excellent lenses as well. I used Sony service (Sweden) – it worked 100%.
During the same time what did CaNikon do to develop the photographic tools? Small steps forwarding their existing (excellent) machines.
What about the D800 big “klabonk” shaking shutter (plus the mirror)? What about the D800 error with unsharp left side of image? Nikon started with denial – then had to take back the first batch of cameras…. – Poor assembly and worthless quality control!
What about Canon fails, year after year, to catch up with dynamic range
I know several Leica owners who bought very expensive lenses only to have send them back because there was now sharpness.
All these manufacturers make excellent photographic tools, none is perfect. Their products are different to suit different photographers needs.
To say Sony does not understand photography only shows the speaker/screamer lowers the credibility of his site.
Didlloyd wrote:
>I like the A7R II a lot in various ways, but what I want to see is Nikon D810 quality in the compact form factor Sony A7R II.<
If this statement isn't telling, we don't know what is, our D810 is one of the worst boat anchors we've ever made, poor recessed optical viewfinder (compared to our super D4S), terrible live-view, and it's hopeless for manual focussing that superlative OTUS glass he raves about (unlike our snappy focussing Nikon Df, a point which alludes him).
The Canon 6D is a better option, it's perfectly sorted (as is the 5D3) but you can at least focus that OTUS with a quick screen change on the Canon 6D. Again, this shows how DigLlloyd isn't a reality based shooter, merely an overqualified/overthinking analyst of things electronic.
It is true that Sony innovated when it comes to the technology of their cameras, but I also agree that there are some things they’re not thinking about when it comes to what a pro is looking for. Both Leica and Fuji are known to work very hard to produce just the right colors for their camera sensors and lenses. Leica may use older tech, but they do it because they prioritize the tones of the image rather than the ISO performance or FPS rate (they were for example still using CCD sensors when everyone else had switched to CMOS, because of the colors). I mean, Canon is still in the color game even though their sensors are way behind Nikons.
I don’t really understand why more people aren’t upset by the lack of real RAW files. The lack of it gives the sense that they’re doing a lot of behind the scenes post work to the files (a bit like most compact cameras that shoot RAW, if you hack it and take the actual RAW file, it looks pretty terrible — but great once its been processed). But if the end results look great, perhaps that doesn’t really matter.
And we’re still waiting to see how Sony handles Firmware updates. Can they compete with Fuji in that area?
complaining about “RAW cooking” and praising fuji doesnt really come together. Ever seen a fuji high iso file? All the details are gone cause of the NR applied to the RAWs. Its funny to see fuji fans praising about the cleanliness of files afterwards. Yes they lack noise all right, but also those fine details…
fuji files can be very scary
How about the lie about the base ISO… pretty lame.
“I don’t really understand why more people aren’t upset by the lack of real RAW files.”
Because it is not a real issue. Rent or borrow some a7 series camera and try it for yourself. Or, if you wish, trust the three examples that have been floating around for the last year and some random people who do not own a Sony. And, btw, Fuji has and raw, really?
And Sony certainly is thinking about colors, they’ve had a few changes, but they’ve been as consistent as any other brand. No idea why you would think otherwise.
Sony needs to bring in some new blood when it comes to software and UI. They should hire whomever does menu’s for Ricoh..he old GR series (digital) had the smartest most photographer friendly interface I’ve experienced in a digital camera (and I’ve tried em all). Sony’s UI’s have always stunk, from their video cameras to the computers they used to try and sell. I love my A7s and am thinking about a A7rii. Would have loved to have kept my RX100. The day Sony announced that they have a massive firmware update (new menu system) will be a great day, kind of like when Canon comes out with a significant Mirrorless system (EF mount) we can throw our EF Canon glass on. Here’s hoping, but don’t hold your breath.
Well, to be fair, everyone should should hire whomever does the menus for Ricoh.
Sony, and all the other camera manufacturers, should open-source their software. Everyone wins.
Yeah, open source always wins, we’ve clearly seen that already/sarcasm off.
Would be great indeed, unlikely to happen though. In fact, definitely won’t happen, that is for sure.
You’re probably right. It just seems an obvious move to me. Camera makers are in the business of selling hardware. The software is just an expense needed to run the hardware. You can tell this as it’s, uniformly, rubbish. No one buys into a camera system because it’s got great software. Some avoid certain brands because they’re even worse than the norm but none are good.
Open source it and you’ll have ongoing development from a huge team who are knowledgable, enthusiastic and cheap (to the point of being pretty much free).
Nope. They don’t want you to buy cheap Yongnuo flashes, lenses, batteries etc. If everything was open source, e.g. a group of enthusiasts would add quick DFD AF to old NEX-3 bodies seriously reducing A5100&A6000 advantage in focusing. A third parties would soon produce even more cheap accessories.
Really? I can only see the upsides. Both for the manufacturers (it’s a hell of a selling point) and the users.
People happily buy products of well-known fruit company despite they are the very opposite of open source. Outside small circle of geeks, nobody cares.
Notable differences here though. That fruit company has legendary after sales support compared to the competition. You can still get instant updates to 3-5 year old hardware on their phones and tablets. Android not so much. Closed source makes sense if it means a better user experience. I’m not sure that with Sony it really does.
Apple are selling software as well as hardware. Sony are selling hardware that just so happens to need software to run it. It’s a drain on their efforts and bottom line and it shows, they’re not that good at it.
Put it another way – I don’t think Sony would lose a single sale by going open source and might conceivably gain many. I, for one, would see it as a definite plus in any system I was considering.
Sony A7R II and A7s are certainly a nice option for videographers, especially with the nice lightweight gimbals and recorders becoming available for reasonable prices. But when you need a pro camera for commercial photography there is no way around nikon or canon in terms of reliability and durability and also optical viewfinders are still better than EVFs for still photography.
slaveboy… I’ve never understood the “OVF is SO much better than EVF” feeling. I’ve used both. I don’t like OVF; I like to see what the camera sees through the EVF. Plus, my a7II can overlay so much information through the EVF. The OVF seems old and dated to me… it’s just a reflection in a mirror. I hear, “OVF lets you see what’s really there, and there’s no comparison to that.” Well… I can look at it directly with my eyes; I don’t need a mirror and prism to see what’s really there. “Well, OVF is realtime and you get a lag with EVF.” I don’t really notice this with my A7II. EVF are hugely useful to me. I don’t get much out of an OVF. What am I missing?
In short, could you explain why you feel OVF are so much better than EVF?
Jesse, I’m not saying EVF is all bad, helps to get cameras small. Youre right if you say that the mirror in the camera only reflects the light.
But remember that what you see with your eyes is also “only” projected light and its not the thing itself. Although there is much to be gained from EVFs like Zebra, Peaking and all this, i feel strangely disconnected from whats in front of me while using it because I cant SEE and feel the actual light reaching my eye. This was the main reason for me to switch from sony to nikon.
If you ever have the chance, please try a Voigtländer R3A 1:1 viewfinder with both eyes open, it’s mirrorless at its best.
I will not have my eyes replaced with google retinas even if they have a sony screen with 4k.
“i feel strangely disconnected from whats in front of me while using [EVF] because I cant see and feel the actual light reaching my eye.”
Eh… I guess I’m just not “artistic” or sophisticated enough to understand/see/feel the subtle nuances and sensual sensations of light caressing my eyeball through an OVF.
I’m a tech guy… I love the overlay of information through my EVF… I like to see what the camera is seeing… it makes me feel one with the camera. If I want to feel the soft, sensual sensations of light fondling my eyeballs, I just look at the light, directly… without the need for an elaborate system of mechanical mirrors, cavities and prisms.
Cheers, slaveboy! 😉
Hahaha. Dont knock a good eye ball caress until you’ve had one.
For many of us, we can have both. I sometimes like to keep one eye on the EVF while occassionally opening the other to get that caress and see what else is around. Best of both. Especially come night time trying to both photograph and dodge a camera thief!
Agree – I love the EVF’s features but I find I need to use my left eye to really see the nuanced aspects of the composition and yes, the light.
It would be great If they could produce a HUD-like projection in an OVF for historam, etc.
Disconnected or not. This is pointless. What you do is take picture. So what matters is what you shoot and with an EVF, you see exactly how the shoot will look like.
Seeing with your own eye is not difficult, just look at the scene with your own eye, or open the other eye. I do not understand this kind of rationale really. Nobody cares (or should care) about the real dynamic of a scene or what you eye can see if the camera anyway cannot record it.
I have shot commercial work with canon, nikon, sony SLRs – only to name the digital ones and one of the many things i learned from that is that camera displays always lie to you. You won’t see “the actual picture” on the camera screen because it depends on the brightness, contrast and gamut of your display and also depending on viewing conditions. Some camera displays like the Canon 5d III always exaggerate contrast. Its handy for impressing your client but dangerous when an image is underexposed and it goes unnoticed.
EVF is not a failsaife for correct exposure or exposing for ideal dynamic range. When your flash exposure is much stronger than ambient light you wont see it on the EVF. But using a flashmeter and histogram will tell you the truth.
For me it’s most important to rely on my camera, with Sony i often had the impression that my camera is only around 80% – 90% reliable and autofocus accuracy was not very good. Slow as hell while reviewing pictures also. I switched to nikon because I think Sony cares for the wrong things, making money with gimmicks like EVF, instead of making a straight forward SLR camera that delivers, like they tried to with the a900. Still the AF and Flash system was a catastrophe compared to canon and nikon.
I was really P!$$3D off when I wanted to sell my A mount gear and cameras about half a year ago. Almost no camera store would take lenses because the thought it’s already too late because A mount is dead. It took me a while to sell everything at a acceptable price.
I never heard of pro service for Sony cameras in europe or the US but: Next week I will have one of my D800 bodies checked and cleaned by Nikon for free, and the will fix a scratched groundglass also free of charge.
Cheerio
I have shot commercial work, never had a problem with my A7R. OVF vs EVF is an opinion and in my opinion you’re crazy. You like taking you eye away from the camera and looking at the screen on every shot to see your exposure? Have fun.
Before everyone gathers the pitchforks and torches, lets try to see if there is some wisdom in what was said.
More wisdom has been found on the tips of pitchforks.
Just saying, before we throw this guy in the mote, lets see if there are any words of wisdom at all. Fuji has built somewhat of a cult like following because they are building small(ish) mirrorless cameras that REALLY appeal to photographers. And it doesn’t have much to do with IQ. It is about handling and the control layout. Sony could build systems like this easily – but they are not. Sony appeals to someone who wants very high IQ in a very small package. But it would be easy, and no size sacrifice for Sony to build a body that has a better control layout. Why not produce a few primes that have an aperture control ring? That and a few other small changes would make the A7 much more appealing.
Fuji has attracted hipsters with their X-series because of how their cameras look.
If anyone’s picking a Fuji over a Sony because of the convenience of knobs and rings, they should be using phone cameras because they offer the most important convenience of them all… camera portability.
Sweet jesus, you’re a pompous ass.
He is right ! Fuck Sony for not have 14bit loseless !
For you. And it is at 100% not 300%. It is a new photo recently shown by DPREVIEW, did it occur a year ago already? Overprocessed is in the eye of the beholder, too. Why should we strive for this DR advantage of Sony sensors, isoless behavior etc. if it isn’t used? Shooting at ISO100 and pushing or using ISO3200 directly doesn’t matter anymore. That’s great. But it is for real that sometimes artifacts happen to occur. I don’t like these artifacts, because I can’t see similar things with my Nikons, but I have NO problem with your opinion at all and I know it doesn’t occur in 99% of shooting conditions. It is interesting that you just can’t accept other peoples priorities. Why do people always take their opinion for universally valid for all others?
It is simply an argument. Until there is a better one, I would consider mine to be right. An argument is not an opinion.
Why should I accept just words and an extremely limited number of bad examples? When I say overprocessed, I mean pushed by 5 stops, as in the example you linked to – nothing to see with the eye of the beholder. As I already said, I am still waiting to see that final output that is affected by the “issue” – that is the only realistic evaluation. This “issue” requires you to shoot in specific conditions, push the file to extremes and then either print huge and inspect the image with a loupe or display the image on a 5K screen and shove your nose into it (and I doubt you’ll see much in both of these cases, especially with the file you linked to). That is not a realistic way of doing and enjoying photography.
all reviews are biased, some more than others. he got some good points and some personal opinions. but most responses here are more emotional than rational. it’s kinda funny
If there are, they must be hiding. I’m not finding them.
Where I live the Sigma is less expensive (748,91 Euro and it is f1.4) the Sony 849 Euros (about 115$ difference). The 85/1.8g is very good, even the Canon is not that bad. I believe price is a major driving factor. 1200Euros is a lot compared to 400 for the 85/1.8g, which is very close in optical quality. And for this extreme difference in price, performance needs to be top notch. I find the Batis better, but in my opinion a price below 1000Euros would have been more realistic.
I understood the statement you refer to in general terms. No teles, no 2.8 zooms (they are coming), not wrt lens quality. But this generalized all lenses of A are better than B is childish. There are so many nuances (including max. aperture, rendering, price, build quality,…).
Lloyd is right. IMO, this camera is a toy and not something I would trust with my own work.
Same feeling. I love SOME of the tech. If I could, I’d group certain features together in the menu and leave all the consumer/”for fun” features in a different tab. And there’s something to be done with the toy like controls in the back. A new more dedicated body? Looks like Sony is confused.
If you deem it a toy, and your work is of such importance, then don’t even consider it for your use. But I do have to ask, why are you even commenting here?
Cause losers have spare time to waste on forums for items they DONT like instead of stuff they actually use. 😉
If what you shoot with is better, what brings you here?
Great then I’d suggest you keep at your non toy cameras and let the toy cameras for the kids to play with of which I am part of and happy to be !
Leica is DEAD, sorry.
The big news from Leica is a new camera that only does black and white photos! WOW this is a game changer ! next big release would be a camera that uses FILM or only uses iso50! bravo Leica!
Good point Vlad! But why not Sony? they are the company with arguably the best tech and the worst UI out there.
I’m ok with Canon and Panasonics UI. I figure out how to make my Sony work for me but it’s not pleasurable, logical. The Sony Ui does not seem to be made by and for photographers, or videographers for that matter. I tossed my A6000 because it was such a menu-diving headache. Loved my Rx1 but not the menu’s, ditto RX100.
I like that this discussion is going public, maybe Sony will hear us.
Everyone, Sony too.
It’s a good discussion though. Every camera manu can do better, in this case Sony desperately needs to work on it’s UI..hopefully they hear us and think about it
The menus are perfect, they need to work on nothing. You are probably just use to crappy canon / nikon menus.
Sony’s A7 series is a clear damage to photography.
Prototypes with no or little refinements around the sensors. With plastic mounts. pro service which isn’t.
Facelifted only for Canikons
A real playstation strategy .
As I told you in the past :
we are forced to use camcorder which can also take stills. That’s the bright future of photography we are facing thanks to innovation.
I would say that is still sadly accurate. They are more an electronics company and can stand to understand the service side of the photographic market much better. Take, for example, the f60 flash overheating flaw and the problems with the MIS to iISO adapter problems. The former went 2 years without recognition until a small firmware update was privately let known to certain being who complained to customer service. The flash had to be sent it to Sony and it was sent back in a not timely manner. Now this “fix” (more of a workaround) remains hidden or unavailable to many. Meanwhile the faulty adapter was never fixed.
The Sony alpha group / dept would benefit from learning from the broadcast / pro video department, which offers robust pro services for repairs, more frequent firmware updates as well as paid feature additions for older cameras.
Would you let us know how did Nikon handle the D600 oil and dust issue ? Did they handle it professionally and ethically ? Wheren’t customers left out to dry ?
For all their efforts churning out innovative cameras in a small form factor with large sensors I would not criticize Sony but rather praise them. I really don’t care if they are labelled as a consumers electronics company or otherwise. What I am interested in is a top notch product which is reliable, sold at a reasonable price and benefits from a good warranty and after sales service. I have no gripes nor complaints about Sony.
The a6000 and A7RII are outselling others in their class by leaps and bounds these days… I guess I would care what Digiloyd had to say if my main objective was to take snapshots of rocks.
It doesn’t have some of the best lenses out there is has all the best lenses out there because it has a short flange/film distance that allows it to use all the best lenses… BUT when you buy a Leica or any other non-Sony brand lens to use on it Sony doesn’t get the money for that lens. You’ve missed my point completely.
I don’t think I did. I was talking about Sony’s lenses, of which there are plenty, considering how new the system is, and most of which are excellent. No weakness there. And whether they are designed by Sony is irrelevant, every company outsources at least some of its designs.
Sony is many things, a producer of sensors, a producer of professional video/digital cine cameras, and a consumer electronics manufacture. Unfortunately α cameras are part of the consumer electronics side of the business.
Sony makes excellent headphones. Many professional sound recordists use them. The least expensive repair costs more than a NEW pair of headphones. Sony is in the business of selling, not repairing.
When I buy Sony, I know I’m buying a throw-away item. Lloyd Chambers is making the mistake of thinking Sony could ever be anything other than a consumer electronics company.
The Sony broadcast & cinema video division offers services akin to cps.
Isn’t that what I implied when I mentioned the difference between Broadcast and Consumer Electronics??
When out in the middle of effing-nowhere I’ve received phone support for DIY repairs, so that we could continue the days shooting. I’d say that Sony Broadcast is a lot better than CPS.
People sometimes sacrifice the entire camera to take a good shot.
And here you are whining about how the electronic world confuses you.
Gee genotype writer, I’ve missed reading your ill informed palaver!! What make you think that the “electronic world” confuses me??
I’ve mounted motion picture camera on roller coasters, cars, motorcycles and trains. I’m very familiar with putting a camera in harms way to get the shot.
I don’t keep track of my fans nor do I approve of them… so don’t call me ill-informed, I probably never cared for what you do.
Stick to mounting your go-pros and patting yourself on the back.
Don’t fret over genotypewriter, he’s a troll.
He is right.
Maybe if Digilloyd wants to properly marry Sony and Canon, he should use diamonds rather th cut glass and do his tests with Metabones IV as that seems to be the defacto professional and most respected and best adaptor.
Using cut glass as a reference is going to be blurry
Lloyd Chambers is just insufferable and represents some of the worst elements in the photography community. The cranky old pixel peepers.
Sounds like people want to carry the stone for the dying DSLR. History repeats itself (film). Another year from now he’ll probably be praising Sony.
Is it about numbers or photos? Because Im pretty damn sure the A7Rii is a way better functioning camera than anything else on the market right now. Theres only one thing to cry about and its 14 bit, which isn’t even a big deal. Its literally the last thing to complain about. What are people gonna do when Sony fixes it? There will be nothing more to cry about. Or maybe they will cry about how Canon lenses don’t work better on the Sony then they do on Canon. Jesus people go take photos.
These are the reasons why i said Sony oberblew the price for a7rii. It is not that simple, introduce several good inovations and proclaim your camera better than D810.
I expected they will keep to their pricing strategy, when their cameras were cheaper than canikons competition. The a6000 was wiping out competition with its price point. Now, it seems like they feel they made their name already, that their brand equals nikons or canon’s in photography business.
A7RII is fantastic camera, the only flaw it has in my opinion, is that it doesnt cost somewhere around $2300.
Sometimes i think the only reason for such a high price was the fact that if they priced it below $2500, they would have to lower all prices, for a7s, a7r, a7ii etc.
I certainly wish the A7RII cost less but I bet part of Sony’s concern is undercutting margins and screwing the,selves in the long run. Dedicated cameras is increasingly a niche business and Sony can’t afford to drive the niche into commodity pricing. Great for the consumer in the short term but long term you get the serious stagnation.
Sony still have to make some profits to pay for all the R&D which led to these NEX, Axxxx and A7 series cameras… I doubt that Sony considers that they have arrived at the Canikon level even though this is the objective. Now, how come with such an excessively high price the A7r2 stocks are all gone ?
I shoot with an A7R. I only ever travel with my camera and I have never had a problem with ruggedness, responsiveness and the evf is amazing. Im not sure what you’re talking about with the half second delay, because you’re wasting way more than half a second taking the camera away from your eye all the time to look at the screen.
gestalt = I am used to something and I am not going to be open to anything else.
Yeah, it’s been a tragic failure generally. Well, apart from the fact that the internet’s largely built on it. /derision off
I think, this guy should control how much coffee he is drinking ?
Digilloyd in the camera world is the equivalent of Cosmopolitan.
I’ve been a long time Canon user and a recent convert to Nikon, but the temptation to try Sony has hit a fever pitch in Cameradom and I jumped in and picked up an A7s, an A7 Mark ii and an A6000… On the whole I find them to be competent cameras, capable of beautiful imagery, but the ergonomics drive me crazy, and the various AF modes tend to leave more decision making up to the camera – and no matter how hard I try, I’m just not that comfortable with it. Moreover – based on my experiences – the AF hunts way more than I am comfortable in even moderately low light situations that my canons and Nikons can handle with ease… It’s just my $.02, but I’m not ready to abandon Nikon and/or Canon for Sony mirrorless – especially for weddings – never mind the whole 1 memory card slot debate…
Pixel peepers are failed photographers who will never understand the true meaning of photography. Digilloyd is a pixel peeper of the first order.
Lloyd Chambers is not only the most technically competent gear reviewer in the scene but also a highly capable photographer. Show me one review site that offers as aesthetically high quality images as Lloyd’s. Even when showing truly ordinary subjects his pictures sing and you get a good idea of what the gear is capable of. I bought Ricoh GR and Sony A6000 after seeing the pictures Lloyd demonstrated and I’m fully happy with my purchases. Lloyd’s observations are astute. His rant like writing style can put off some people but is it too hard to ignore the style and take the substance in his writings?
As there’s no source linked, I totally don’t get the context of Diglloyd’s rant. Why are Sony’s cameras not “the real thing”? What does that mean at all? Why is a Leica Q one? Why doesn’t Sony understand photography but Nikon or Canon does? Without any context or evidence or example what he’s complaining about, this quote is bullocks.
Diglloyd said he likes Sony cameras a lot. He also likes their lenses. He also said Nikon and Canon are “lame dinosaurs”. He also doesn’t like the Canon 5DS R. He also claims Leica is not very reliable. So what is he talking about?
Digiboy is such a hater. When he finds something he goes mad about it and everything is just bad, evil and a personal offense. Quite the opposite to Steve Huff who loves and adores everything he reviews so much. Everything is so Leica-like, even the cheapest plastic lens. Matt Granger just sits in he’s office chair, tickling his cat and goes out in his shadowy backyard making some quick shots of his chubby assistant with a brilliant Zeiss Otus and calls it a “real world” review. And finally we have Tony Northup talking 20 min about DXO charts, wrapping his wife in plastic foil and call himself a photographer. What a world …
My two $600 Sony flashes fail me repeatedly when I need them to just work. For such a high price, I just need them to be reliable with good after sales service.
All you have to do is send them to Sony for the firmware update and the problem is solved. New version of the flash don’t have the issue. Yes it sucks that it needs to be fixed, much like the d600 oil issue, the d750 light leak issue, the d810 AF issue and so on, but there is a fix.
before continuing the rant against Diglloyd read this:
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150822_1402-SonyA7R_II-focus.html
Outsourcing would still give them revenue. But when I buy a Leica lens or Nikon lens to use on a Sony camera Sony doesn’t get anything. The bodies they have now are good enough that most people using them aren’t going to get more unless the wear out so then the revenue stream for Sony would be lenses which they are woefully short on I terms of variety. That is what defines a real camera maker from Sony… How many lenses does. Sony actually sell compared to a Nikon or canon.
Been doing photography and actually out shooting for 20 years versus writing articles at my desk and the Sony cameras I’ve owned in the last year have produced some of the best images I’ve taken. I do not miss my 5ds and L glass one bit. To each their own though but wish people would spend more time taking photos then talking about companies business models
Lloyd has done serious shooting for more decades than you and he is quite a capable photographer. Why make snide comments about people whose work you probably are unaware of? BTW I checked your instagram pictures and they are passable at best.
Whether sony fans admit or not sony cameras just never felt like a reliable tool but different versions of playstation to keep tech savy enthusiasts. They go nuts over new features but simply fail to realize how long it takes for a certain camera design to mature. Take a7 series for example, the real problem of its design is that its short flange distance inevitably results in irregular coloration/brightness throughout the frame which is rather critical to any photographer who require critical consistency. But who cares about those boring details! Its got all the bells and whistles! See, this is sonys real problem- they make cameras that excite amateurs. I really hope Sony secures very basic but essential qualities such as color consistency and uncompressed raw if it wants theirs products taken seriously by serious photographers. And as for evf vs ovf, viewfinder serves the purpose of not only framing but always observing at which evfs fail as it loses all the details in shadow under bright light. Again this is something light photographers would not understand as most of them would settle for just being able to frame correctly.
As somebody who’s actually read the blog, I feel that he’s very fair about what he’s said.
He said a lot of good things about Sony, but he’s also fairly pointed out what they still need major improvements on: customer service, quality control, and listening to consumers’ requests regarding firmware, software, and menu niggles (such as lack of 14-bit lossless).
That is irrelevant. Leica are ridiculously priced and they are always out of stock. There are many reasons: people to whom the difference of 1000 dollars means nothing, much lower production volume than e.g D810, etc.
who is digiloyd?
use film. noone will ever make you shoot video on film camera.
I get your point but do not understand your conclusion. Even if you can discuss about contrast, gamut, brightness of the display, as you said, the livehistogram does not lie. This plus the zebras for highlight burnt is what make EVF so much more efficient to nail the right exposure (according the way you want to shoot) compare to an OVF. From what you said, I do not understand how you consider the OVF of the Nikon being better than the EVF information displayed in the Sony.
Also, apart from the exposure, the EVF, with the automatic magnification also allow you to check accurately the focus right before you shoot and not after the fact, when it is sometimes to late.
For the flash system, I do not what to say. I hear this from time to time. I shoot 10 years Canon with a 580EX and a 430EXII and now with a Sony HVL-43M on my Sony and I did not have problem with one or the other. I find the Sony exposing very bright like in a ETTR mode without blowing the highlight which is ideal in term of image quality. I honestly do not know the issues people have with Sony flashes.
For pro service, how much cost you this “free check” every year ? What kind of subscription do you need ? Nothing is never free.
I am sure Nikon are nice. For me, what an A7x has against any DSLR (being with Sony sensor or not) is an addition of much lighter and smaller package, EVF, swivel screen, wifi, customization, .. that all together make the traditional DSLR absolutely uninteresting. I feel no compelling advantages whatsoever, especially with Sony A7R II AF improvement.
Time to sell your fuji-x hipster bait and buy a real photographer’s camera 😀
So let me get this right: you want 14bit lossless because you are paranoid.
He is translating diglloyd’s assertions 🙂
Hahaha lol like that AngryPhotographer guy on youtube who said the hot pixels on the A7RII were so visible that the photos looked like snow in a blizzard LooooooL 🙂
I Agree with this 100%
Why? I loved his article on the RX1.