Image on top: The rangefinder camera.
Amateur Photographer (Click here) got another interesting statement from Nikon. Simo Iddon (Product Manager og Nikon UK) said that: “The success of compact system camera sales is taking away from the compact camera market, not from digital SLRs” because “if you want a DSLR you want what a DSLR stands for’ and that isn’t a compact system camera.“
That statement backups the rumors saying that Nikon will announce a small sensor size Nikon Coolpix Pro mirrorless system. The sensor could have a 2.5crop factor making it smaller than the Micro Four Thirds sensor.
37 Responses
Well, I sold my Nikon D60 to buy a mirrorless camera..
People who want better image quality than P&S had only one choice four years ago: DSLR. Now, there are CSC/mirrorless as well. P&S upgraders choosing mirorrless instead of DSLR will surely make DSLR market smaller.
I sold my DSLR just to buy a PEN.
If the Nikon “system” sensor is 2.5 crop it is not an upgrade from a point and shoot.
That would be the tiniest sensor in yellow in this sensor comparison chart in the link below below:
http://thephoblographer.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/sensorsjpeg.jpg
Hey..can somebody help me look for my contact lens….I can’t seem to find it??? 🙂
I have no idea who that “system?” camera would be marketed to. Perhaps people who don’t look into anything and just go with the advertisements? Plenty of that out there…but Nikon better make it “cute” looking!
S95/G12 are 4.65 crop, and m43 is 2.0 crop so on that chart 2.5 crop would be somewhere in between the LX3 and m43, closer to m43.
I would like to see some kind of rangefinder camera like a S3 as the upcoming mirrorless device by Nikon. Or something like a digital FM2…
But I can’t believe that my dreams will ever come true
Hey Bob, 2.5 crop isn´t 1/2.5″ !
A 2.5 crop sensor would be about 2.7 times bigger than a S95/G12-sensor. So I expect a better picture quality.
The other point are the lenses. People who buy a system camera surely want to play with dof. So Nikon has to bring out some really wide opened lenses. But Olys XZ-1 shows that you can play with dof even with a 1/1,63″ sensor.
*justmy2cents*
OK…thanks guys…this is a case of Bob B. not knowing what he is talking about. (blush) LOL!
I still do not understand ALL of the references to sensor sizes. Photography used to be so simple.
I am looking at a sensor-size chart…and it makes no sense and has incomplete info.
Can someone explain to me what the term “crop” means. Is it a video term or something?
Bob B: Cropfactor is the ratio between the diagonal length of a full frame sensor and a crop sensor. A FF sensor has a diagonal ca 43mm, while a 2x crop sensor is ca 21.5mm).
To those who sold their SLR to get a CSC – There are no less SLRs because you sold yours. I believe the Nikon Exec is talking about a new customer who is desiding between a SLR or CSC. Personally, I’m in the marked for a CSC, but only as a supplement to my D700, not a replacement. And size of the package is my main criteria. Actually – size of the lenses is the factor that brings me to either 2.5x, 2x or 1.5x cameras.
It used to be simple, because there use to be only what they now call ’35m equivalent’ or ‘full-frame’. When you’re using a full-frame lens, a full-frame sensor would use the full surface of the lens from edge to edge (1x). Think of a round lens, and the rectangular photo. But a 2x crop sensor would use only half, because it’s half the size, and at the same time that means it’s zoomed in two times closer. Like a cropped photo. Today tho they make lenses specifically for ‘crop’, but we still refer back to the ’35mm equivalent’ like a rule of measurement, or currency.
My Pentax K-7 is currently on eBay; it will be my last DSLR. I’m sure I’m not alone on that one.
If Nikon dont get the importance of this market segment they will fail BIG! If they dont relase a digital FF rangefinder ala Nikon S3 or a digital FF Nikon FM3D they will loose me as a customer, because someone else will do this, and then Im going for that system.
It REALLY would be nice if Canon and Nikon attempted to “knock off” the Leica M9. What is so funny is that is how both of those companies got started…copying the old Leicas. Now if they woud just do it again for old times sake. LOL!
I think that both Nikon and Canon do not think there is a big enough share of the market to justify the design and commitment that it would take. Hell…if they just made a full-frame digital rangefinder m-body and let us put the Zeiss or Leica glass on it. I bet that would sell with no lens quite well if the viewfinder and sensor were up to snuff.
Say…$1200-1600 for the body. Keep it simple. I bet that would sell VERY well.
…..and then I woke up from my dream.
well,
asuming Nikons EVIl has 2,5x crop, it would make it a 14x10mm sensor? So shallow DOF wise it would be half an stop worser then mFT, right? Not an whole stop like APS-C/mFT.
It would sure be nice to have a modernised digital rangefinder. What Nikon and Canon don’t seem to be able to get is that it’s the quality of the glass and simplicity of use we want, not all the bullshit bells and whistles that no real photographer ever uses. Sony is even worse at this.
Concentrate on building me a camera that takes good pictures, dammit!
Please , Nikon-Canon-Sony, pay attention to John Bowen’s last post
It’s not so difficult , I think….
Simplicity and high quality -small lenses is the key
Me, as a professional photographer , I have to use heavy and bulky DSLR
Meanwhile for my personal project , I’m using m43 and I couldn’t be happier
At the same time I’m using some specialistic compact camera, as the X100 from Fuji or the beautiful GXR system from Ricoh, for some works , and they’re very good
I wouldn’t be interested in camera with sensor smaller than m43
Because I need to control shallow DOF , that’s a crucial point
SLR kind of camera is old , let’s start a true digital revolution
The only reason that they are taken the market from p&s only, is because there is, beside leica m9, no real pro FF mirrorles camera that they produce…
common! if they would produce a mirrorless camera (in rangefinder size) with pro level IQ (dynamic range, high iso performance, resolution) plus weathersealing and decent camera controlls (not LCD menue controlls) i would buy it imediatly!!!
i hope fuji will work on a “pro x100” with the features above and interchangeable lenses (maybe they could take the back LCD away and put an ISO Dial and exposer compensation dial instead).
of course EVF’s would need to get better for manual focusing…
But for me, DSLR’s was just a good solution for the “digital revoltion” (to keep lenses, habits…) The Design was made for Film photography (today filled with digital nonsens)
They need to design a camera that takes all the advandetig that todays technology have (like fuji is trying to do it with the x100, but with retro style…)
A PRO level camera don’t need to be big.
Or ho wouldent buy a camera with the designe of a leica mp, sensor performance of an d3s and the hybrid viewfinder concept of the fuji x100 (but better performance) and interchangebel lenses? of course with AF and MF and Aperture-/Speedpriorety(just ad an “A” Position in the f-stop ring) and Manualmode
“Dreams go on…”
sorry for my english!
A Nikon S3D, with modern lenses and (perhaps) a rangefinder with digital input, could be a true working professional’s camera, especially so if Nikon did something truly innovative like use a 4:5 aspect ratio sensor. 16x20mm would be sufficient for me, I’m quite happy with the image quality from the m4/3 sensor in my E-PL1 and am confident that Nikon could exceed that. For the “FF rules, crop drools!” knuckleheads (who need high iso because they never learned to control their light), I’m sure Nikon could put out some overpriced crap with a larger sensor.
Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to compose and frame to the enlargement size most commonly printed?
With all due respect to Nikon, that statement is bullshit. They will realise it in due course.
I am another of those photographers who is moving from a DSLR to a MILC…just not a Nikon MILC from the looks of it. I’ve been shooting a DSLR for 4 years, not because of what it represented (bulk, weight, larger lenses…), but because I had no other choice. NEX, m4/3, NX and X100… I now have a choice!
I think the 2.5x crop factor will be successful because of availability of C-mount lenses designed for 1-inch sensor (2.7x crop factor), which will have very little vigenetting compared with M4/3 sensor, and fill-in the gap between the 1/1.8-inch and 4/3-inch sensors for a better balance between camera size and quality!
@at: Great point on the c-mount lenses. There is some really fast glass in this format, and it would be great to use it well. I could live with the 2.5 crop (am currently a m43 user) if the glass was fast and good. And the size is a huge difference, greater than the difference between FF and m43 glass. I would seriously consider selling my m43 for this. Sensor performance will catch up in time.
Remember, companies with a serious stake in a DSLR format need to avoid cannibalising their own sales……lesson learned from Olympus!
To be realistic, most people want a DSLR because they heard that DSLRs are the best. These people buy a D3000 or 1000D, which will never see something else than the kit-lense. Thats the majority of buyers I guess. And if these people all realize someday, that for their motivs a CSC can do as well but smaller, they will prefer it over DSLRs. So it`s just a matter of time and marketing.
PS: Also being a quite serious amateur photographer, I switched from DSLR to CSC, just because I don’t need a fast AF, I just need that big sensor (for my macro-photography).
“if you want a DSLR you want what a DSLR stands for’ and that isn’t a compact system camera.”
Oh but Nikon, you think highly of your users, but really the large bit of your DSLR users really doesn’t know what the hell it stands for. Expectations, commercials, misinformation, and ‘expensive is the best’ has led them to buy one, but most will be better matched with a system camera. They’ll learn that sooner or later. Nothing wrong with either of them, but as a general consumer it’s just really hard to find your match in this world. 🙂
Just the opposite. Good mirrorless gives an adequate picture quality to 99% of photographers. Myself.. I hardly ever use my Nikon Dslr anymore.
It looks like Nikon want mirrorless cameras to be perceived as lower quality than slrs. Perhaps they would like people to think that having a mirror in there somehow makes the camera give better results. This makes sense if they are going to market a camera with a smaller sensor than m43. Personally I am perfectly happy to use a mirrorless camera rather than an APS-C slr and believe that the market share of the cheaper slrs will decline due to competition from mirrorless cameras.
I regard the Nikon D3x with one of its big standard lenses as a monstrosity, like having to carry you entire system round your neck all the time. I find it a bit sad that they don’t seem to want to supply their highest resolution sensor in a more compact (i.e. mirrorless) body. I presume neither Canon nor Nikon want to develop the new range of high quality lenses that would be required.
Well, that Nikon rep is wrong. And really obnoxious sounding as well. I like NIkon a lot less hearing this guy’s comments.
Speaking for me, the advantage of mirrorless is that it offers the depth of field advantages of a dslr while remaining small enough to actually carry around and shoot in a city environment.
Nikon is doing exactly the same as Olympus did, when introducing m43. They expected to win point&shot-users for an upgrade to CSCs. But there was a big group of DSLR-users buying m43 as second system. And – while realizing to get the same quality with less size and weight – giving up their DSLR-system. This marked the end of Olympus´ lower-end-DSLRs.
I wonder when when they realize the truth: Mirrorless system users are quite often people wanting smaller than DSLR to complement that system, but without sacrifices in IQ. Nikon´s 2,5 crop, if true, is just that: too much of a compromise.
Even though I am shooting with GF1, I would love to have a compact camera with LARGER, not smaller sensor!
People want DSLR quality in a compact form with good fast pancake lens. Basically a travel or back up camera better choice than s95.
Yeah – agree with most of these comments. It’s spin. Clearly all the camera manufacturers try to artificially segment the market so they can sell as many cameras to as many people as possible. In the end cash rules, and demographics considered too small in comparison to the given company’s overall sales won’t be catered for. As we’ve seen with the MILCs – they’ve all started heading away from external controls and ergonomics towards soft controls and extreme miniaturisation. They’ve obviously decided that DSLR users are more conservative and harder to woo towards the middle ground than compact users. This is obviously not true for many of us on this forum, but we’re clearly under-represented in the community at large.
Canon and Nikon have the most invested in the status quo – so are just taking the most conservative approach, and marketing hard to convince us that’s what we should want.
Wrong, but expected from Canikon to defend their high margin dSLR segments with shallow spins. I don’t have the CSC market figures, and yet a sizeable chunk is dSLR replacements w/ smaller/lighter cameras using the SAME sensor. I’m also expecting full-frame CSCs to pop up.
Dear Nikon Rep,
I am a 28 year Nikon slr/dslr shooter. Hanging on a coat hook in my office is a Fuji X100, the current Nikon “grab it fast” kit takes up two drawers. The rest of the Nikon kit sits in camera bags or boxes in the closet.
You are correct that those who want a dslr will obviously buy only a dslr. However, those that want to photograph have more and more options to consider. Next week I leave for a two week holiday. The Fuji will be my only camera. If that trip goes well, the Nikon will be sold and you folks can kiss goodbye to a 28 year customer.
What an obnoxious attitude from this Nikon rep. As a full time pro photographer for over 10 years, what I would love is DSLR performance in a compact body that isn’t going to wear me out by the end of a long wedding and this rep clearly does not get that. I see that this post is two years old and looking at the market today it’s clear that Fuji, Olympus, and Sony gets it while Nikon and Canon have their heads in the sand. I have two Canon 5d Mark 3’s because I have to, not because I love the hugh and heavy cameras. I would love the same camera even more if they were the size of the current crop of mirrorless like the Fuji X Pro 1 and the Sony Nex 7, or even better yet, if they could be the size of the Olympus OMD EM5. Sure enough, Nikon came out with their shitty tiny sensor cameras in the form of the J1 and V1 and I’m not the least bit interested because while it is small, the quality and bokeh is lacking because the sensors are too small. At least Canon’s attempt with the M has a good APS-C sensor, even though the camera is a joke compared to the offerings by Olympus, Fuji, and Sony.