A visitor of the CES show shared me the following info:
Speaking to Sony rep at CES, he indicated H.265 may be coming to A7x platform. In theory, this could allow A7S to output 4K (H.265) to the SD card due to the lower bitrate possibility. Would eliminate the requirement for external HDMI recorder for 4K, as long as you are OK with the H.265 compression.
The Samsung NX1 uses the H.265 codec for 4K recording. But I really don’t know if Sony will do this. There may be overheating issue when recording 4K on the A7s. But if Sony would find a way to add internal 4K recording I would certainly be happy!
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107 Responses
Lulz
why would the sensor suddenly overheat without external recorder? Doesn’t make sense. Just bring it Sony, don’t wait.
With the external recorder, the camera sends an uncompressed 4k signal out via hdmi for viewing. The recorder does the work of encoding, compressing and writing it to memory all of which produce heat that could otherwise make the a7s unstable (it may also lack the processing power to crunch the 4k resolution, possibly both). The larger a7II form factor could help to mitigate heat to some degree.
Indeed, and i feel people are also complaining too much the overal size of a mirrorless with a external recorder that records in a much higher bitrate and quality is still smaller than most other setups. Also people need to be a bit more creative. I use a atomos recorder and just put it around my neck with a strap leave it there while i can use my camera and its small size in a normal way. Or even putting it on a very small rig is still very workable compared to ‘old’ setups.
H265 is more computationally intensive to encode than H264. More CPU use = more heat.
So this is bullshit. It is not even clear that any existing H265 encoder gives better results than H264, particularly for high bitrates and real-time encoding. The potential gains are largely theoretical, and will apply for multi-pass encoding.
This. Sony ‘could’ maybe update to include 4K, but if they did it is FAR more likely to be XAVC-S than h.265 and there is zero processing advantage to going with h.265 which would increase heat not decrease it.
I have tested 4k h.265, by converting a FZ1000 4k h.264 recording to 4k h.265.
Then playing/comparing both files on an LG 4k TV, using the new Minix X8-H plus player.
All I can say is, Wow the results are impressive.
Less than half the size, same quality. H.265 is the future, and the way to go.
J
What did you use to encode the H265? Straight out of camera H264 will have much worse quality per bit than what you can get by using something like 2 passes with x264 because the camera can’t do multiple passes, and doesn’t have the processing power or time.
I copied the 4k mp4 file off the FZ1000 SD card, then used the Divx H.265 encoder (high quality setting) on my PC to re-encode the H.264 file to H.265.
On a 4k TV, I can’t tell any difference in quality (and I do have a trained pixel peeping eye).
There is a lot of hype about the processing demands required to process H.265 4k files.
It’s complete BS. The Samsung NX1 can do it in real time, and my PC is a lot more powerful than the NX1.
All future 4k cameras will implement support for H.265. It’s a foregone conclusion.
J
Remember it’s unlikely to be done on the cpu – they’re far more likely to have a dedicated encoder
Even if there are downsides, why would anyone object to the possibility?
Unless they ‘break’ something at the same time, I’d be happy to see any additions via firmware.
You don’t have to install it or use it!
They have buyers remorse and are just trying to justify their own buying decisions.
Nothing comes without opportunity cost – the time spent implementing H.265 could be spent adding an uncompressed RAW stills option, for example.
Difference being, people actually see a difference when shooting 4K – unlike the uncompressed RAW theory that none have any “personal” evidence/comparisons of (other than someone else dodgy examples).
That’s just an example, you could equally say that developing an uncompressed RAW stills option that videographers would never use would take resources away from implementing new video codecs.
The point is new features don’t come for free.
I’d rather all these camera companies stop “developing features” we don’t need and simply improve existing features. We don’t need the Baskin Robbins flavours of RAW we have now, just adopt DNG. We don’t need the same in RAW video, just adopt better codecs.
That assumes there are very limited resources dedicated to creating the firmware. I have absolutely no idea how large is the software department within Sony Imaging, but I doubt it would be ‘one or the other’ in such a case as this!
I think we both know, though, that it’s unlikely we’ll see either. Now, if Sony could take a leaf out of Samsung’s book…(he says looking at the tasty firmware release for the already well regarded NX1!)
No it assumes there are finite resources dedicated to creating the firmware, which is true.
Any time spent implementing H.265 has to result in the delay of other features, the manpower has to come from somewhere. Now it may be that it is shared across other cameras/projects, but there will still be a delay *somewhere*.
You ask why someone would object to Sony developing firmware they’re not interested in, and I’ve given you a reason!
And the reason is only valid IF the one wasn’t created solely because of the development of the other!
Even if such a ‘clash’ was to lead to a delay, that is all it would likely be, a delay, and not stoppng it from happening. Such a delay would almost certainly be of very short duration in the grand scheme of things.
As far as Sony are concerned, I think if it was deemed necessary it would be done, irrespective of perceived ‘resources’.
I recall a recent interview with Sony execs/prod mgmt posted on this forum where the Sony representative stated that internal 4K recording in the A7s would not be possible due to limitations in the hardware (circuit board).
Not happening. Maybe A7s MKII but no way it’s a firmware update to the existing cam. Sony would have to release an h265 converter at the same time so the video can be edited.
XAVC just started to make its way into Sony’s lineup after hanging onto the low bitrate avchd for way too long. Other than bug fixes, new features come on new cams. The A7 hasn’t even gotten the XAVC update. It’s a pipe dream…
But RX10 and A77 II have, so it’s possible if a little unlikely. I don’t see a huge improvement in A7 II video over A7, despite the better codec (which is something I have said for a while) Whereas the RX10 benefits from it greatly.
MdB, that’s not my point as XAVC is hardware supported and something that already exists across other parts of the Sony lineup. This would be something entirely new and given the intense processing going on for compression, I just don’t see a feature this significant – that would require an external conversion program to make files editable – being a firmware update. It took them years to dump AVCHD, no way they go h265 after less than a year. I call shenanigans on this one.
Oh absolutely agree! But it is ‘possible’ they could update to 4K internal XAVC-S… maybe. Possible but highly unlikely. Possibility of being h.265 4K…? Nought.
It makes sense for the a7s to get xavc, if the hardware can drive it. But I could see them holding it back for the a7s ii with ibis.
Even if there was a measly ten minute recording limit on 4K with the A7s due to overheating issues, I’d still be very happy with that!!!
That would be nice. Even 5 minutes could be useful.
The problem is not the lenght of the recording but the time needed to recover from the overheating.
Yeah for event work it would be sadly utterly useless, but for a lot of narrative work it would be ok.
If they would slash the prices like they did for a limited time in Australia (1200 euros for A7s plus kit zoom plus a choice of adapter) that would be more beneficial for the customers/users and for Sony’s sales.
Isn’t there a A7S II with SSS coming? 😉
Yes, the A7’s (all of them) are very aggressively priced here in Australia. Admin was posting about sub $1000 FFs being available in the not too distant future, where in reality in AU we recently had ~$500 (AUD inc taxes) A7’s. I definitely didn’t pay that much for my A7S (about the same as GH4), haven’t seen anywhere in the world doing them cheaper.
I wonder if Australia is such a small market (for Sony) to this sort of stunts? 500 AUD for an A7 (including a free adapter) is a give away!
Can’t figure out why this is the case???
Australians, rejoice! 🙂
Sorry I should clarify, it was about $950 AUD (maybe $800ish USD) for the A7 WITH adapter AND kit lens. If you sold off the adapter and kit lens the body works out to be about $500 (~$400 USD) not considering the ‘price’ of those items on their own but what they would actually approximately sell for.
Not sure, but they have been extremely good value since launch, even the brand new A7 II was about $1600-1700 ($1500ish USD) with adapter and kit lens.
H265 is a format for final output, not for footage that still has to be edited and graded.
That option would look nice on the feature list, but actually using it is different topic.
Exactly. Throwing everything out the window just to get 4k internal is just a feature tick. AVCHD and XAVC-S will break apart if you try to do anything, and good luck making a colour selection in post that lasts more than a couple of frames – you’ll be tearing your hair out. Prores or raw is more like it, and there’s products in the same ballpark price that can do it already. These are of course dedicated video devices, but isn’t that what the A7s is?
That isn’t even remotely true, Both hold up to pretty heavy grading. The thing that don’t hold up to is Exposure adjustments. If you know how to expose the neutral profile to get the look you want in post, its very easy to work with.
Depends on your workflow. AVCHD and XAVC-S optimise by throwing away data in shadows (hence your point about exposure, which is absolutely correct), but also by merging colors that are so close together that the eye cannot differentiate them *in the unedited footage*. If you push the color, (not the exposure) so much that the eye should now be able to differentiate the colors you get issues, You may not see the issue, but your edits can suffer from it. You end up having to pull selection data from the unedited top node, and this makes your edit node graph much more complicated than it should be. because you are not using selections from the current node (you cant trust them because they will shimmer), but waaay back from the first node. That’s my experience anyway.
If you expose properly you will get good results with it like I said. The problems you’re talking about aren’t codec problems per say, its a problem with heavy node based grading 8-bit footage. Speedgrade and Premiere don’t cause those problems because they are layer based. You can get the same problems with Pro Res or DNXHD in Resolve.
I’ve done tests myself and there are various ones online as well. Pro Res HQ holds up slightly better than AVCHD, very slightly.
Having higher subsampling and a better bit depth will help more though. Not just a higher bit rate.
Actually, it is the other way around. H265 is the format you want for professional recordings that needs to be edited and graded. It supports multiple colour rooms and up to 16 bits per colour channel, and also 4:4:4 sampling. So H265 is better than most raw formats used by pro cams today.
H264 also supports 444 and more than 8 bits per channel, but camera makers have not taken advantage of that. I would not expect to see them use those features in H265 either.
Its all about the bandwidth budget. To support 12 bits per channel the bandwidth has to increase, or the efficiency of the compression has to increase. 4k on h264 was quite close to be possible for A7s. With h265 4k 12b is possible within the same budget its using for HD log2 today.
Bandwidth is not the problem. Its the processing power to encode the format.
this is amazing
guys
where is my FE 24-105 f4 ?
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As a A7s owner, i would appreciate internal 4k recording. The Atmos shogun solution is not as compact as i hoped it would be.
It was never going to be. BMD may make a hyperdeck shuttle or similar that is small and out of the way.
You’re right, the next hyperdeck generation will definitely have 4k ability. The only benefit of an internal solution is that you are free of cables.
Oh my God, if i could get internal 4K Recording on my A7s??? I would be so happy!!!
This is a false rumor. Sony and h.265 on this camera is never going to happen. H.264 maybe but never h.265.
I struggle to see it happening without a major hardware upgrade – it’ll need a dedicated encoder and I’m not sure if they’re on the market yet…
There must be a posibility for internal recording. According to philipp bloom, he mentioned somewhere that Sony introduced him an early version of the A7s with internal recording. So maybe there are some chips one the board that are not in use yet. But probably you right.
Honestly don’t get why review ‘experts’ go straight to S-Log2 on the A7S and never use anything else? Then COMPLAIN that it takes work to get good looking output…. Seriously?
Like they added XAVCS to the A7? IF this happens I highly doubt Sony will push it to existing A7S users. It will be A7Smk2
Like they added XAVC-S to the RX10 and A77 II? Or upgraded the 4K XAVC-S to the AX100? Or how they are firmware updating the X70 for 4K? But no, if it ain’t happening on the A7 then it ain’t happening 😉
I know. That’s exactly WHY I think it won’t be added to the A7S even if they could do it. Think about it a little bit more.
They added XAVC-S to all these other BionzX run cameras but they DIDN’T to the A7. Why? Clearly the hardware is capable. It is mostly likely because the A7mk2 is the plan for the rest of the A7 line up. Those same ergonomic changes (or ones like them I suspect Sony is testing the waters with the A7mk2) and IBIS will come to the A7S in 2015/2016.
Sony decided to include codec improvement along side IBIS and handling changes in the A7mk2 so it is likely to do the same when upgrading the A7S. Nothing is 100% certain (even for those inside Sony I imagine) but my reasoning is not (merely) bitterness about the A7 being passed over. There are other clear, market-based reasons for upgrading the models you mentioned.
In a signal by Sony episode they said it’s not possible to update the A7 to get XAVCS as it needs some hardware chip or something. I don’t remember exactly what they said other than its not possible with a software update alone.
While internal recording with h.264 may be possible, it’s very unlikely that h.265 can be bolted in with a firmware update. h.265 is in a state where currently you need dedicated hardware to get decent decompression (let alone compression) rates at 1080p (let alone 4K).
Unless this hardware was in the A7s at the get go, or if the hardware in it can be easily repurposed to h.265 I don’t see this happening at all.
In any case, it wasn’t the recording that made 4K recording too impossible, it was the thermal dissipation from the onboard processors when asked to perform the compression that prevented this happening. Perhaps a more efficient algorithm or something can get h.264 working, but h.265 is an SR0 in my opinion.
I’m thinking that it has an encoder chip to do the XAVC-S encoding. It may be possible to write software to use the same chip for a different encoding algorithm, so technically it may be possible. As stated below, 4K internal, even in limited recording lengths, would be very useful to many users of this camera. You just need a good program to transcode it to pro-res for editing.
XAVC-S is essentially a ‘better’ version of h.264 and very different to h.265.
While it is theoretically possible to encode and decode h.265 in software on most platforms (assuming enough memory is available), doing it fast enough and within a given thermal limit is a tough ask.
I’m not arguing that being able to write short clips of 4K video internally is not a good thing, I’m just saying that writing it in h.265 is very unlikely to be technically feasible on the A7s.
Losers. The future is h.277 and 7 minute abs ! 7’s the key number here. Think about it. 7-Elevens. 7 dwarves. 7, man, that’s the number. 7 chipmunks twirlin’ on a branch, eatin’ lots of sunflowers on my uncle’s ranch.
Acting out is a pathology I often observe in poorly socialized students who fail to grasp the basics of any given subject.
You do know that’s a movie quote, right? Its from Something About Mary.
Nice one Anton.
No I didn’t, but I did watch that movie, very funny stuff. As we say, everything has been done before, nothing is original.
As a wedding & event cinematographer, this would definitely make the A7s THE ideal 4k camera for such jobs for 2 reasons: (1) it’s a hassle running around with a large external recorder, and (2) compressed codec like h265 will most certainly include noise reduction (unlike recording to prores through hdmi) which is essential for high ISO shooting with a quick turn-around
I think this is misleading. When he speaks about A7x platform , I doubt it refers to the existing ones. Those codecs are not implemented in software you would need a much more powerful CPU to do this, they are implemented in hardware (ASIC,FPGA level) so a firmware update will not be able to add h.265 if it’s not already there. I doubt that the hardware has the codec implemented , and they just need a software unlock for this. Probably future models of A7x class will add this, however.
I would take 1600ISO SLOG-2 than 4K internal any day.
And how come the A7ii can do 1600ISO slog and the A7S at 3200?
When A7S was advertised at ISO1600 and now its 3200
A7s sensor is specially made for low light capabilities, if you read carefully A7s base iso is 3200 where it has the highest dynamic range.. Any lower iso will throw away useful photon data to ‘artificially lower’ iso.. A7m2 uses an entirely different sensor thats why its slog iso is different.. I might be wrong somewhere but the concept is pretty much right
You are almost completely right! 3200 iso is not the “base iso”. The S-log 3200 iso is a modified iso for the best dynamic range and noise for the Slog 2 algorithm.
A7S base iso 3200 LOL….
Come on!
Is it so hard to build intern 8 bit 4k? for the first.
And then, is ist so hard to build hdmi-10bit– eXTERN 4k RECORDER ( 699,-$), SONY, to solve
some things, and the user can fit its PARTS to one systeme?
To have the feeling, yes they work for me, not for next big thing, that
will never come, not realy work ( after 3 technical buy-uptates= a bit too much drugs?)
and always the yes-oh-wait-next-year
FORGET IT!
The camera is nice and they did realy all, that i slow “forget” it.
And THERMAL PROBLEM:: do we have 1437…or is this the real 2015?
solve it…
Wow you must be expert in engineering.. Sony needs you.. Go sign up as their engineer and solve those problems
They probably already has 4K 10bit internal ready, but that’s not how the market works. First they release 4K external, everyone is happy. In 2016 they release A7S II with 8bit 4K internal / 10bit external, everyone praises Sony. In 2018 they will release the A9S with 10 bit 4K internal / 4K RAW external. Once again, everyone will rush and buy it.
Or they can follow fuji and hold back the full power of a7s.. Then suddenly release a firmware update to bring its value back up again 😉
haha… something like this yes, and some exec explaining how they worked tirelessly for 8 years on it. (1995 – 2003)
The rumor talks about A7 family i.e. it may be about an unnamed yet model. I would not rule out A7s M2 coming soon with IBIS and newer codec. Perhaps other A7s shortcomings solved too.
I would also expect that 4K is going to appear in all A7 modifications. This is inevitable.
make A7S morph into A7C – C for cinema
-inbody stabilization
-UHS-II cards or something fast (there really is no excuses.. it’s not like it’s a amateur camera to begin with)
-better battery life (more oled tech)..
-better view finder. (perhaps Sony might make their own sturdy wired OLED (1080p) evf that you can mount somewhere on your camera rig.
-internal 4K h265, h264
-120fps 1080p with good enough bitrate
-external 6K
priced at 4000€ .. and I buy it
I would like a global shutter or just less rolling shutter as well
I would go for global shutter over 6K and 120fps, but 120fps would be really nice if like you said, it has the bitrate for it, not that squeezed drip they put in.
I am for all of this save external 6K. I don’t believe it’ll happen in a DSLR/Mirrorless body. The F55 is just 4K.
The rumor is that that it is coming to the 7s but to the 7x platform. To date Sony has given free cameras with the purchase of new firmware. An exaggeration of course but it is doubtful that they would follow Fuji and apparently Samsung “firmware upgrade”. Does not make sense to them given the rate at which they release new bodies.
yeah – one of the sony guys said a couple months ago that they’re going to take more time for releasing new bodies and that the newer bodies should be real improvements instead of just minor “facelifts”.
that worked well 🙂
at this pace we’ll have half a dozen full frame bodies within a bit more than 1 year.
Sony might find that adding a high quality internal 4k codec to the A7s could be very dangerous to their higher pro models. That would be a very bold move on Sony’s part. That ALLOT of 4k image quality for only $2.5k…maybe too much in Sony’s eyes.
No. We are talking a very low end codec. Checkout the codecs and bit rates of the high end cameras. A7s is limited quite a bit in many ways. As for 4K recording….most new phones have it, does it hurt F5 sales? Even Sony have it on Z3….so I find the overheating and bit rate arguments silly.
Much as I love the 4k from my galaxy note 4 I would never consider it for a micro budget shoot because it lacks all the basic tools aND the compression rate is high. This is despite the fact that under ideal outdoor lighting conditions it takes far better video than my expensive dslr package. But if I could get great not ridiculously compressed internal 4k from a full frame sensor and have to make do with all the comprises and inconveniences you have to endure with hybrid camera video–yes I’d take that over buying an f7 or renting an f5 in a heartbeat. I think sony is afraid there a lot of indie artists who would chose the same.
Thanks! I am not that deep into video, so very useful info. Don’t you think that the lack of this headline feature “internal 4K recording” will only boost sales for similarly priced NX1 and GH4. Which too could snatch some of the low end market. Samsung at least do not have much to loose in the high end. Panasonic AFAIK do have some higher end video stuff.
The A7s has a huge sensor that outperforms the Sony FS7, FS700, F3, F5 on low light. Its only hampered by its 8bit output…this is why its dangerous.
H265 / 4K is not what separates the FS7 from the A7S, and yes I think it would be a bold move now, but let us not forget: phones shoot in 4K, Gopro’s shoot 4K, handycams etc. It actually makes more sense to put 4K in as many consumer hands as possible because it will boost 4K TV sales.
it’s the application of the wrong technology. H265 is a deivery/consumption format, and not an acquisition format. Editing H265 is an unwieldy beast of a workflow, at least until better, more fluid decoders or much faster GPUs appear….
In July 2014 a second version of the H.265 standard was published that allows for range extensions that include greater than 10-bit color depth and 4:2:2 / 4:4:4 chroma formats.
5 years ago, I heard the same thing about h264. The sentiment was mostly irrelevant a year later. Neither h264 nor h265 are *ideal* capture formats, but there are plenty of use cases in which they are a good fit.
Unfortunately Sony will never add a feature like 4k internal recording with just a firmware upgrade.. It’s too tempting for them to make a new body and sell it to us !
I voted for “Would be nice but it’s not a game changer” since I believe it would be nice but it is not a game changer. Just to let you know…. ok? 🙂
A FF mirrorless doing internal 4k is a game changer.
Just when I’d FINALLY decided to bite the bullet and buy an A7S, I read another damned rumor that makes me think an A7S mark II is just around the corner….
Time to go back and empty my cart.
The A7II have come out already, lots of rumors on A7rII very soon, and you’re surprised of an A7s being in the works? Lol.
Not surprised, no. But I’d expected that the big deal with a mark II would be in-body stabilization (if they can manage the heat) which, frankly, I could live without. Hence my decision to buy the current model.
But in-camera 4K would be highly desirable, and is a reason to wait to see if and how this shakes out.
It might come out soon But it might be out only next year. Where as .. I bet that the A7R II or what ever it will be called shall be released quite soon or at least during this year. We at this point dont know for sure wheter they release onyl a APS-C or a new FF at the next months expo.
If sony would survive this camera. Lower the price to NX1 body level (1400$) target and add a 4k internal.
Not fair to expect the two to be price-comparable since FF35 sensors cost significantly more than APS-C ones (some have estimated it’s 10x as much).
Then again the sensor does cost as much to the producer of the sensor. And I bet you know who builds the Sony sensors right?
keep dreaming. Making a fullframe sensor isn’t as cheap as making an APS-C sensor. How do you expect them to lower a7S price to match NX1 if the a7II that cost less than the a7S Is still priced higher than NX1? Pure nonsense.
The main problem is Sony came put with this fabulous low light 4k sensor a year ago and stuck in a camera body that couldn’t take advantage of it without Frankensteining a whole cumbersome heavy expensive rig around it whichanges defeats the point. They’ve had a year to place the sensor in a more suitable body and none seems to be on the horizon. Maybe if they sold the sensor to another manufacturer they’d do it more justice.
a year ago??? the camera was realeased in July… what kind a year is that???
This wouldn’t be at all possible with the A7S, as H.265 encoding requires a special hardware encoder chip, one that the A7S simply doesn’t have. Doing it in real time through software processing takes more power than multiple A7’s, so that’s not possible either. They must be taking about a forthcoming product.
Only a kid would believe this…..even if you have h.265, it would be a pain to play or work with without a GPU doing offloading the work from the CPU in a computer.
Muy muy importante. I wanted to use the A7S for work, but we ended up buying the GH4 because of this. This is a false rumor though.