Sony listed three new sensors on their website. One of them is a new 24MP APS-C sensor that may will hind his way in the new A6/7000 cameras and A77 series. The other two are a bit of a surprise. Two Four Thirds sensor likely made for the partner Olympus. Surely Sony is not going to make a Sony Micro Four Thirds camera 🙂
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Thanks to the anonymous source who shared this!
69 Responses
Not BSI it seems, Technology = Exmor.
I hope that Sony A7000 will have a BSI APS sensor, since that would give the Samsung NX1 some competition 🙂
No 50M in 35mm Type, so it mean the recent rumor is not true?
or they are just showing some old sensor in the web page.
They obviously only list sensors they sell to other manufacturers. The 12mp FF A7s sensor is also not listed. So, if a 50mp sensor is coming, you won’t find it on that list.
Well you can put a m43 lens on an e-mount 😉 but this is either for Olympus or even DJI who are going to be m43 Inspire droning it up like an olympus air I predict
Max frame rate of 23fps…. what the heck???? And 19fps? Sad
Don’t confuse the frame rate for stills with that for video.
m43, nikon, sony, ricoh we all are one Family 🙂 welcome to family reunion v(^.^)
You forgot Apple;) iPhone since 4th one…. Only Canon playing alone ;).
Now we wonder why Sony was not in hurry to show new product during Jan show. It was because they are working on sendor for competitors 😉
If I’m not wrong, IMX269 will be the first 20MP m4/3 sensor. It’s only a marginal increase and looking at the slow progress of the m4/3 sensor resolutions, it seems that the limits have been reached.
Yes, progress has been VERY slow in m4/3. There sensors have not moved much in IQ since the original OM-D. But – I don’t think the limits have been reached. Sony has been furiously working on 1″ – a smaller format – and it is now getting close to the same level as m4/3. So I have to believe that m4/3, having more surface area, still has quite a bit of room to improve – even just using current Sony technology.
Interesting that it can take 20MP images fast enough for film rates, which means the sensor would not be a bottleneck for 8k 24/25fps video.
Hi Andrea – is the 24mp version likely to be the A77ii sensor (for sale to the competition) or a new sensor for the a7000? Wouldn’t the a7000 would need a different design, given the PDAF coverage?
ONe must be for the EM1 Mark II.
Yeah, I think that’s the most likely scenario. I like the suggestion by another commenter that maybe they would put it in the RX100 IV – and there is precedent if you look at Panasonic’s LX100, which is the only real competitor to the RX100 (IMO) – but I agree, it’s most likely just for Olympus.
If those specs mean what they appear to mean, then only one of the three can deliver ever 24p video (barely), and none 30p much less 60p, so these almost have to be for some more specialized application, instead of a general-use, video-capable camera.
On the other hand, if those are still frame rates, maybe video frame rates are higher. Is that–in addition to processing power–why most cameras to line-skipping for video? To get the desired frame-rate?
Anyway, Four-Thirds has been stuck at 16 MP for a while, and many people are clamoring for a significant increase, so I’d think a 24 MP sensor for that size would be just the ticket for, say, a new top-of-the-line Olympus.
I wanted to
remind everyone of another great Sensor just around the corner:
The new sensor is called “curved Exomers-RS CMOS” internal model number
IMX271SMK
Some
Details can be found here:
http://www.cnbeta.com/articles/311487.htm
This sensor
was originally intended for some high class mobile phone extras but is more
than likely to make it into the compact camera market. If in a new revision of
the RX100 or a completely new and astonishing camera is not clear as of now…
The
resolution is slightly increased to 22MP
It is
shrunk down to 2/3 size, but because of the curvature it has a claimed
increased sensitivity of 1.4 giving roughly the same sensitivity as current 1
inch sensors.
The Dynamic Range is about 11 Steps at iso400 –
quite fantastic for such a small sensor and right there with the APSC sensor of
the NEX-7 or A55.
It will be
most likely be paired with a new specialized optics, since the optics has to be
fine-tuned to the curvature of the sensor! This new optics has fantastic specifications
– almost to good to be true:
A vast F1.2
apperature, but considering the increased Crop factor maybe not so vast any
more.
The Optics
will have a focal length of 20mm (35mm equivalent) and depending on the final
optics a 3.6x or 10x zoom resulting in tele focal lengths of 70mm or 200mm.
where is the A99 replacement?
In your mind…
I think the IMX271 is an “old” sensor. I believe it is old A6000 / A77ii / D7100 / D7200 – Sensor.
The only other 24 mp APS sensor (IMX193) is just capable of 8.7 fps. So IMX193 can not be the sensor for those speed-cams.
So the hope remains, new sensors have either BSI “Exmor-R” or Foveon-like sensors. And tons of PDAF-points!
No, IMX193 which admin filtered out is the sensor for D5300/5500/7200.
and a6000 uses IMX210 which is not listed on Sony website.
So IMX271 is a brand new sensor which is capable for 19fps full resolution, almost certain can do 4K2k at 30fps.
20mp 4/3 equal 80mp ff
im sure they wont stop before 24mp 4/3 and 100mp ff, when chips are able to handle that data, sure sony will start making them, of course if anyone will buy them its another story
1/2.3″ sensors are past history in compact cameras
1″ its been dead since born at dslr but replaced 1/2.3″ in compact cameras
20mp 4/3 wont stop 4/3 users wanting bigger sensors in fact it will accelerate that
aps-c was a middle stop to ff, they only exist cause they cant made ff back then
surely aps-c line never had a complet line of lenses in any company neither they will
ff has been in major players for a while and since then aps-c lense design has slowed to the point of almost stoped
sensor technology had catch up, mainly thanks to sony, and it will be clearly segmented in future
1/2.3 for smartphones, action cameras, etc
1″ for compact premiums cameras, if that segment ever survive
4/3 for compact dslrs, and the only card to play for some companies
ff for dslrs, and will crush all other formats as prices falls, just like 1/3 an below, 1/1.7, 2/3 etc.
PD
speed of that 4/3 sensor its an eye opener, clearly olympus/panasonic asked for it
Max frame rate 19 FPS?!!! Amazing!
Make it 24 FPS with a large buffer and you can shoot a short movie in an extremely high resolution. 🙂
Why not? Would be fun to see how those Sony lovers react on that (for the good order, I’m a Sony lover too)
Sony is already flooding the low-end to mid-end market with APS-C.
NEX-3, NEX-5, NEX-6, NEX-7, A3000, A5000, A5100, A6000. These are all APS-C, and that gives them a strong image quality advantage over Four Thirds.
Pro Sony m4/3:
– no need to produce own lenses at all
Con Sony m4/3:
– another lens mount to support, along with:
1. A-Mount (FF, non OSS)
2. E-Mount (FF, OSS for A7 A7R A7S)
3. E-Mount (FF, non OSS for A7mk2)
4. E-Mount (APS, OSS)
5. E-Mount (APS, non OSS for A7000/6X00?)
2 and 3 are the same category. You can use OSS lenses on A7ii without problem.
And you can use non-OSS lenses on A7, A7r, A7s without problems. A lot of people so this.
Yes – you can. Same for 4 and 5.
But one of the big advantages of mirrorless at all is to have small size and small weight. And in terms of weight, IBIS adds ~100g to the body, and OSS adds ~100g to FF-lenses.
Therefore you don’t want to have image stabilisation in lens and body, because you are carrying 100g of extra weight for nothing.
Not to mention that non OSS-lenses are potentially sharper and have less possibilities for any malfunctions. verybiglobo.com did a test with FE70200g and tried what happens if the power supply of the lens is interrupted: no AF of course AND significant decreased image quality!
I think that’s pure lens snobbery. there are plenty are excellent lenses even with OSS that will work just fine for the A7ii.
+- 100 gram, if you have the possibility reuse your old OSS lenses for newer camera bodies, you reuse them. It would be stupid to get rid of your OSS lenses just because you upgraded from A7 to A7ii.
I totally agree with you – I am doing pure snobbery 🙂
I just want to paint the picture of the “perfect world”. Olympus did right to have IBIS in all their bodies, and no IS in any of their lenses.
And of course it still allows to use IS-lenses from Panasonic on Oly IBIS-bodies and and vice versa. But as far as I know, many m4/3 users prefer lenses of their body-brand if they have the choice. But maybe it’s just brand loyalty – who knows.
M4/3 for a RX100mIV doesn’t need a specific mount 😉
You know Sony is still going to use the E mount if they ever make a m4/3 camera.
What would be the point of a 4/3 sensor when using E-mount APS-C lenses? They could offer a 4/3 crop option in their existing APS-C E-mount cameras and achieve exactly the same thing.
Yes, four lens lines are not enough, let’s add a fifth to it (of course, being m43, they would not need to technically but they still would feel obliged to offer their own lenses). And while they are at it, add 1″ ILC and a sixth lens line.
RX 100 mark IV with a micro 4/3 sensor…… just dreaming……
That would kinda make sense actually, since that’s basically what Panasonic does with their LX100.
They should 1up on Panasonic and do it even better in my opinion. Ricoh GR uses APS-C.
But I don’t think they will use APS-C, nor Four Thirds. Sony mass produce so many of those 1 inch sensors, and those sensors have to be used somewhere…
I’m sure Nikon will continue to purchase those 1″ sensors for years to come. No sign of them getting too serious about their mirrorless line any time soon ?
Nikon 1?
Not really, LX100 doesn’t really perform any better than the 1″ sensor and is only marginally bigger.
Fair point.
If they are not BSI sensors, it’s all old technology.
Sony had better get with the program and introduce a new BSI sensor with global shutter or at the very minimum silent shutter as in the A7s.
Yes because there are a lot of BSI global shutter sensors around, Sony WAKE UP and CATCH UP.
How does the sensor fab work between Oly and Sony ?
One is probably updated version of current with the second being higher performance benchmarked with Oly fast aperture glass.
Sony makes sensors and Olympus buys them. That’s fairly simple, isn’t it? 🙂
The sensors are most likely NOT designed by Olympus, because they don’t have PDAF or any unique features. They would, if Olympus could design them (like they do with E-M1 sensor made by Panasonic).
Olympus is quite good in minimizing the noise, but it must be said that most of this is done with rather aggressive processing (noise reduction and sharpening). If you’d like to see how the sensor really performs, you should compare to Nikon (minimal processing in camera). D5300 and E-M10 have sensors from similar generations. Imaging Resource is a good place to start. 🙂
If you want the best image quality, buy a camera with a good full frame sensor and image processor. It’s realy that simple.
Making sensors for Olympus makes sense. Its old tech to us, but actually if you consider that m4/3 still uses CCD (LiveMOS) sensors, this is new CMOS tech for them. Its definitely worth it to Olympus to get better noise reduction in images. Think higher ISO.
Olympus has been using Sony sensors since they went to 16Mpx sensors.
Curiously they continued calling them LiveMOS but they weren’t. Sometimes brand names don’t count for anything.
This is just the first time Sony has announced them as a generally available semiconductor part. Sony is not making mFT cameras but people in the machine vision world (and people who make mFT cameras) will use them.
It sounds like “we” ehhhh… Sony has better sensors than Olympus or Panasonic and these companies therefore want to using Sony sensors.
That’s definitely not the case. It is just about development cost versus cost per sensor.
Bottom line: Sony offered a price per sensor cheaper than Oly/pana inhouse development & production.
BTW:
You can compare in dpreview e.g. an Olympus OM-D E-M10 with A6000 in RAW and you see in 100% crops, there is no difference with ISO noise. No wonder that, 16mp 4/3s sensor and 24mp APS sensor have same about pixel size.
If you be more precise Olympus pixels are even smaller (~90%) than Sony pixels, and having same quality. So there is no reason to say, Sony has better sensor technology.
LittleCam I agree. my only point was that in general CMOS sensors have done better is the noise department. If they can get these results from CCD then they should be able to do even better with CMOS.
The sensor in the E-M10 IS a Sony sensor.
If you look at 100% magnification a 10-year old DSLR will be even better, because it had 4 MPx. So why buy anything modern?
Looking at 100% crops is pointless when comparing different sensor sizes with different resolutions. This is not how you take pictures. Compare the same crop with the same scene in it, not magnified pixels…
Comparing 2 sensors with different sizes in total as you said, the bigger one has an advantage and gives very likely better results. But it does not mean, the bigger sensor has better tech. If you want to compare 2 sensors in terms of technical evolution, you have to crop images of both to the same area and then rescale them to the same resolution.
Because the 2 sensors I mentioned have similar pixel-size, you can look directly to 100% crops to compare the sensor tech, but not the sensor itself.
But why would you care about “better tech”? Does it make you feel better?:o
Nowadays sensors in phones have “better tech” than sensors in FF cameras. Not to mention medium format, which is years behind (they just moved from CCD to CMOS).
So which camera makes the best photos? Are you after good image quality or advanced pixels?
Another thing is how the good high ISO performance in Olympus cameras is achieved. You can’t lie to physics, but you can lie to the customer. Images are so processed I sometimes find them painful to look at – especially 100% crops, when the sharpening becomes obvious.
My suggestion is: go to imaging resource and use their image comparison for E-M10 and D5300 at ISO 1600 and above. Similar Sony tech from similar period. Olympus optimizes sensors for low measured noise in standard procedures (e.g. in imatest). Nikon optimizes sensors for low ISO dynamic range and good details reproduction, so their RAWs are fairly untouched. The difference will be obvious. Yes, Olympus image will look sharper and might even seem less noisy. 🙂
Read the 1st post from David Figueiredo and you will understand why I was talking about sensor tech and not the sensors in general.
That statement is simply not true. A ten year old 4 mp camera sucks.
I’ll stick with my full frame Canon 6D. It beats most cameras in low light and it’s not that much bigger and heavier. I tried many small sensor cameras and all of them fail when the light is low. Simple math. Big sensor, big pixels, better image quality.
Maybe RX series goes 4/3
Rx20 with 4/3rds 24-200 f1.8-f2.8 would be pure gold.
Just musing, but it would be very easy for Sony to produce an M43 camera. Just take one of the E-Mount APS-C bodies (which aren’t really any larger than most M43 bodies), change the lens mount and fiddle about the electronics a little. I can’t imagine they’d do it, but as a badge engineering job…
Why change the mount? Just stuff a m4/3 sensor in, dual firmware chips, a dumb electrical adapter and you’re good to go with all native E-Mount as well as all of m43
Given the rubbish corner performance of most E-mount lenses, switching to MFT would be very beneficial… 😛
Still, why switch at all?
MFT is an unnecessarily small sensor. Olympus already lost the battle with APS-C once and will do it again, when more APS-C mirrorless camera arrive (Canon, Nikon).
Sony should definitely stick with APS-C.
Furthermore, we should remember that Sony is taking most of the profits in the whole MFT system – that’s because they’re supplying the key element. Oly is losing money as the biggest member of MFT group (I bet Panasonic’s results are even worse). Small lens manufacturers are marginal…
Funny, with the sensors being so good, I think an even SMALLER sensor and cameras would sell well. 12MP (with similar pixel size) is plenty for non-professional usage (and even some pro usage).
The Sony RX100 has sold fairly well I believe.
Are we talking about smaller sensors or lower resolution?
Thing with resolution is simple. Enthusiasts could live with 12 MPx. But selling such cameras to casual shooters is a different problem. They don’t know much about photography. What they know is: their phone has 13 MPx and the IQ is good enough. Resolution, zoom and selfies – that’s what they’re looking for.
As for sensor size… modern Sony 1″ sensors are excellent as long as you can stick to low ISO.
But for general usage you should look for something with decent ISO1600. With that you could think about action/sport in cloudy weather and it will help indoor.
And for decent ISO1600 today you still need APS-C sensor. MFT is almost there. 1″ is not even close.
If Sony can make a small m43 camera that focuses fast, has IBIS and works on e mount, I would buy it for sports, birds in flight or action photography. The crop factor would help on long lenses…like the 70-400.
It would also be a good improvement for the RX100.
19fps, that camera beter come paired with a boat load of ram
That quoted framerate is at the full resolution of the sensor, but nobody (outside a few ultra high-end niche markets) is shooting video at that kind of resolution. 1080p is only about 2MP, and 4K is about 8MP.
In other words, that’s the framerate for stills, not for video.