Let’s start within the new week with a small rumors. As I already told you there will be one FF SLT camera at Photokina (specs you already know) and another High End Model within the first half of 2013. A new source just told me that one camera will be named A88 (veyr likely the A850 successor and “cheap” FF model) and another will be the A99 (very likely the A900 successor and “high” end model).
This is just to say that the final name of the coming 24 Megapixel model may be A88 instead of A99. I am still not sure. I hope my sources can confirm this soon. Keep in mind that Sony itself once said that there will be a A9x SLT Full Frame this year.
Anyway, we are just talking about the names here. I am trying to figure out how the High End Model could be. Early rumors suggested it would use the same Nikon D800 sensor and a built-in vertical grip. Question is if such a high end model makes sense. I mean, the pro market is pretty conservative and dominated by Nikon and Canon. You will need a huge effort to convince pro’s to switch the system! What do you think? Does it make sense?
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Sony A850 at Amazon, Adorama, B&H, J&R, eBay.
Sony A900 at Amazon, Adorama, B&H, J&R, eBay.
212 Responses
In next 12 months? So, we have to wait one more year?
I though we would see a FF in September’12!!!
not in twelve months but in between the next 12 month, that is a huge difference.
exactly! another 12 months! “within” but still… oh Sony what have you been doing!?
wait fo thee flagship a111
A101 would be nice name..
A001 would be nicer. 😛
that would be only 1 step up from the cheapest alpha model the a100
If Sony really wants to enter the “pro” segment than they need both FF cameras: one affordable for semi-pros and a flagship model.
Over here in Germany most pros and semi-pros are really conservative – so it will be a long way and Sony will only have success if they deliver excellent service not only for a few members of some owners clubs but also for the normal highend amateur and the mass of pros with no names.
E.g. very fast service and repair times – my A55 resp. the Sony 1,4/50 needs some autofocus adjustment, but they told me I’ve to calculate with 4 to 6 weeks… Or cheap possibilities for renting equipment for a week or so.
And as Sony is an electronic and computer company they should talk their colleagues from the computer department and incorporate not only gadgets like GPS but also high speed interfaces like gigabit ethernet and USB 3.0 and make the new cameras also fully remote controllable. The last feature costs nothing than once writing some piece of software but think of what you have to pay Nikon or Canon for that feature!
Another big feature is the possible speed because of the SLT technology but currently it is limited both by CPU power and SDCard speed.
For the eyefinder: at first I was very skeptical about that little “monitor” instead of a prisma. But now e.g. in a dark club during a concert I love it – I’ve a bright though sometimes noisy picture where the others have… And I can look at the taken shots in the eyefinder so nobody near to me can see them (sometimes really important!)
Great post, someone should forward it on to one of the higher-ups at Sony.
Sony must already have a pro service network for their high end video. Maybe they should add service for their top still cameras to that.
Hope it is 24MP with a high FPS rate (do a lot of wildlife photography). 36MP is too large. Low noise over MP is a priority to me. Would prefer DSLR not SLT. Still love the A900 viewfinder. Played with a Nikon D4 the other day and that is the only DSLR that comes close to the viewfinder of the A900. Love the idea of a built in vertical grip. Wonder if it will hold two batteries? Hopefully they will have a two memory card system like the D4. Except I would prefer only CF slots and definitely not memory stick. You can actually send RAW files to one memory card and JPG files to the other card with the D4. Would like to see automatic swtich over to second media slot when first is filled up at least from A900 replacement.
Brian,
Understand your worries on SLT; but once you see a good one, you’ll be a believer.
I was lucky enough to meet a fellow Sony user this weekend who let me take a look through his A77’s viewfinder, and I must say it was amazing! It was much larger and easier to see things than in my A700.
Aside from that, I completely agree with all points you have made in your post!
Good luck cleaning your semitransparent mirror when something sticky gets on it.
Don’t clean you mirror with peanut butter and you’ll be OK….
Good luck cleaning your sensor when something sticky gets on it.
And remember – replacing mirror is over 10 times cheaper then replacing sensor 😉
Good point, Sky_walker.
Sensors are cleanable with sensor swabs. Good luck cleaning your semitransparent mirror with a swab.
doug – either you are trolling, or you are clueless.
First of all – you “can” use swabs to clean the sensors, it’s not like you “have” to, cause actually you “shouldn’t” use swabs – think of it as one of last-resort tools instead of thing you use for normal cleaning.
Secondly – you actually can use swab for SLT mirror cleaning as well, although technique is bit different then one used for cleaning sensor. If you for some idiotic reason want to use it exactly with the same motion like for sensor cleaning – just pull out the mirror and clean it then (surprise! mirror is detachable).
doug, manufacturers say you shouldn’t touch the sensor, but people still clean it. Stop spreading FUD about the mirror, just clean the damn thing.
See above.
I have an A77 and been using it more. However, am still not convinced it is better than the OVF of the A900, but do appreciate the other things that it does now.
Comparing an EVF to the OVF in an APS-C camera is one thing comparing it to the OVF in a full frame camera is another.
I hope this rumor is true.
From what has been leaked about this body it sounds more like an 8 series or maybe a new 7 series seeing how Nikon is moving the bar on price and full-frame products in general, but not a 9 top of the line camera.
I don’t know, and likely no one here on this site knows what the truth is and bout the first camera rumored of this year.
I could see a Sony line-up that has three FF bodies and uses 3,4,and 5 for crops.
Crazy news lately on the SAR. Almost a year have all been waiting A99, now generally unknown what to expect 🙂
Crazy news lately….. Almost a year have all been waiting A99, now generally unknown what to expect 🙂
It absolutely makes sense. Mirrorless, fullframe, high resolution is the future. He who gets there first with a quality camera will benefit greatly. The Nikon D800 already shows that reflex focus is at the end of its road. Nikon can’t even keep a D800 SLR fixed focal length lens in focus across the many available focal points, left to right and up and down. That aside, a Nikon SLR zoom lens requires several center focus error compensation points to keep a Nikon zoom lens in focus across the focal range.
The problem that Sony will run into is to be able to supply a range of top quality lenses. Sony should buy and straighten out Zeiss and get serious about photography.
Sony’s SLT-models use the same basic design as dSLRs with a mirror and a phase detect sensor and possible alignment problems. Nikon’s problem with some D800s doesn’t say anything about the future of dSLR/SLT af systems IMO.
I have nothing invested in Sony’s SLR or SLT systems and you are right (I believe) about the system currently relying only on PDAF. However Sony’s CDAF system on the NEX line is getting constantly and consistently better. CDAF is not as fast as PDAF but it has the potential to be more accurate (as long as it picks the right focus area) because it is using the actual sensor and so alignment issues are moot.
There isn’t much (aside from processing power) saying that Sony can’t implement a hybrid that uses PDAF to zero in on the subject and fast CDAF to finesse the focus. THAT would be an awesome use of the SLT system.
See Canon 650D – I never would want something like that for AF in my camera. Too slow, jumps back and forth, got issues in low-light conditions, got issues each time there’s not much of a contrast… it’s ok for tripod shooting but not much beyond this…
This is true and important. Any focusing method relying on reflection and alignments is nearing its life of usefulness.
Spam, I said mirrorless.
Crazy news lately on the SAR. Almost a year have all been waiting A99, now generally unknown what to expect :))
while i dont see myself in the market for a FF
the best bet would be use that A77 body and mount a 24mp ff (it should have no problem handling the data if the sensor can be made to fit )
it can keep the oled EVF
price to be had around 2K$
then build the flagship A99 with the 36-40mp 4k HD newer and better EVF with pricing more like 3k$
It makes sense. A 24MP FF camera would never haven been able to earn respect as Sony’s “flagship” camera because Sony is selling a “better” sensor to Nikon for the D800.
Now, why don’t they release A88 and A99 at the same time? 2 possible reasons:
– exclusive agreement with Nikon does not allow Sony to use the 36MP for their own cameras this year
– development is delayed, the A88 can be released as a stripped down version, lacking those features that aren’t ready yet and will be on the A99
But in your view, what makes a camera the ‘flagship’, megapixel count? Nikon’s ‘flagship’ isn’t the D800, it’s the D4 (and Canon’s ‘flagship 1DX is ‘only’ 18MP). More MP does not always equal ‘better’.
Not necessarily megapixel count. But since the 36MP sensor is used in the D800 and the 24MP sensor will be used in the D600, the lower-MP sensor clearly is in a lower market segment.
Sony should make two new mirrorless, fullframe, 36 mp cameras using the Nikon D800(E) sensor, one with a fully automatic Canon lens mount and one with a fully automatic Nikon lens mount.
lol.
Win-comment!
Have you pondered the possibility that the 36MP in the D800 was actually designed by Nikon (retaining full IP) and that Sony were only used as the fab for the manufacture of it?
Probably not. Sony is way ahead of Nikon in that department.
I think that Sony should make things backwards to what Nikon is doing.
If the D800 36MP is the top and the D600 24MP is way cheaper. Make the A99 a top 24MP camera and the A88 a cheaper 36MP camera.
Because as the D800 is the top, Nikon won’t push the 24MP high ISO capabilities, even more because they have the D4 for that. Sony doesn’t have any of that, make the A99 a very good DR and high ISO camera with better video than the D800 and of course, Sony have to price it better than the D800. The A99 HAVE to have a uncompressed HDMI out. The A88 can be what the A65 is to the A77, a cut down version, but with an attractive 36MP for those that really need it and that, way cheaper than the D800.
FF + SLT ≠ high end. Sorry.
Says who? You?
So glad you were here to set me straight. Go troll somewhere else.
Yes, I do say. And no, I’m not a troll. As long as Sony goes down the road of SLT bullshit I will call it like I see it. And I will not go somewhere else. People like you who think that Sony can do no wrong need to pull their heads out of their asses and go.
Sony have gone SLT, so why are you still here? If Sony doesn’t provide you with what you want from a camera, then move on, it’s only a camera.
Sure….
Remember when auto-exposure ≠ high-end? And auto-focus ≠ high-end? Or do you??
Surely no camera company in the world can make a camera that can make auto-exposed frames better nor faster than a pro? And auto-focus? Keep dreaming!! These innovations are purely trinkets for low-end shooters.
Surely there will never be an EVF that will be better nor more functional than an OVF!! An SLT will never be able to produce results like an SLR!!!
I know many pros who are quite respectful of what Sony is doing in the camera market. They admire the innovations, the new ideas, the fresh thoughts, as well as how they are implemented in the new cameras.
For you to hurl pejoratives like ‘bullshit’ says FAR more about you than it does about Sony.
Well, pro equipment implies that it’s a really good solution for serious paid photos. The way I understand it, at the moment some sport photographers find the EVF to slow to follow fast moving objects. On the other hand, for macro photo (especially with reverse mounted lenses) EVF blows OVF out of the water. The difference is like day and night (as in see clearly what is in focus and hardly see anything). Of course mirrorless EVF will be even a notch better for this. So maybe you can say that SLT isn’t pro sport equipment, but then you would also have to say that SLR isn’t pro macro equipment. For most other stuff I’d say EVF/OVF is a matter of taste.
Yea its a matter of taste – and Sony should make both to satisfy all tastes.
Troll
Moron.
This doesn’t make much sense to me. The models with built in vertical grips generally aren’t the highest resolution machines, but the tools to get well exposed shots really fast, continuously. Sony will not succeed with a 36MP model to compete against a D4 with less then half the megapixels. These professional camera’s are build to get a lot of noise free images within a second for a long burst. That’s not going to happen with 36MP (see D800).
Maybe Sony is trying to create the perfect all-in-one camera: high resolution, high FPS, high-grade built, high-everything, but I don’t see something like that possible under $3000.
Sony just has to offer a cheap FF (especially in light of the coming D600), a 24 MP FF version of the A77, possibly around $1800. It’s called the A88.
The A99 will come later, since Nikon seems to use the 36MP sensor exclusively.
Well, we’ll see.
The rumored time-line sounds logical to me. They can tip-toe in with the A88 (A860) and refine it later on with the A99 (A950). Yes, those are my own term-names. If Sony really wants to attract the pro shooters, then professional Customer Service and more Zeiss glass is an absolute must. Frankly, I do believe they will produce the glass but poor customer service is a heritage they may wish to keep.
Maybe im too optimistic but i dont think its that impossible for sony to gather a big bunch of pros for the mid-range future. Not because of the current pros switching system, but the now semi-pros or advanced amateurs who already have sony and manage to make themselves a place within the photography market. Hopefully my case.
I am certainly now in a balance between brands, I have sony, but if the newcoming FF SLTs don’t convince me ill probably switch to nikon.
I’m with you on the same thought.
++1, same situation here
You know what’s best selling Sony A-mount camera on Amazon right now? A77. DigitalRev? A77. So saying that gathering a big bunch of semi-pros or advanced amateurs is impossible for Sony already came out false 🙂
I’ll tell you why the professionals have avoided Sony up until now – trust. Sony have too frequently updated their low end line (A33, A35, A37 within the space of less than two years!) whilst completely ignoring their high end line (A900 which is 4 years old now has been retired and there’s nothing to replace it).
Based upon their own actions, Sony are clearly after the bottom end consumer market and really seem to have little interest in satisfying the needs of the pro shooter. Even if they were to bring out a line of high end FF SLRs, there’s still the concern that they might decide that the exercise wasnt profitable and can the idea of producing FF cameras in the future – right after you’ve bought a nice collection of Zeiss glass.
Theres has hasn’t been a great deal of commitment on their part, and where there’s no commitment, there’s no trust.
Canon update their consumer line just as often.
I dont care how it will be named, just release that damn thing finally …
+1!!!!
+1
+2
For me please 24MP A88 first!
+1
This finally is starting to make sense… all this talk about A99 24MP with something else later makes NO sense… A88 makes much more sense from a marketing and sales perspective… A88 24MP… A99 36+MP… Test the FF-SLT with the A88… refine and release A99!!!… and why can’t the A99 be a “high-end” PRO camera?.. Question to ask is what will all the a900 pro shooters upgrade to?…
This is the first rumor I have seen that actually starts to make sense!!!…
“Question to ask is what will all the a900 pro shooters upgrade to?…”
At the moment, and for a while, I have no reasons or desire to upgrade to anything beyond a900. The only thing that would tempt me away is a more capable future model that respected the past one.
I really wish they’d release a bullet proof rock solid version without video. It would be a nice trend bucker that could cost less and earn the same respect Leica gets for releasing a B&W only camera. I think the market is fooling itself that EVERYONE and their brother DEMANDS that EVERY camera be video equipped.
Long live the Stills Purists and Printmakers of the world!
Agreed. The A900 isn’t the A700 or A580, it’s not a “it’s good, but if only they…” type of camera, and to make a camera that’s meaningfully better is not so simple.
To make a camera this is more appealing as an upgrade for APS users to upgrade to is more straightforward and is what Sony appear to be cooking up right now, but nothing I’ve heard so far suggests they’re making something that blows the A900 out of the water.
No doubt it will be difficult to top the current 9 Carl. Bulls eye perspective. Anyone who pays attention to the 9 legacy will understand that each one is far away distinctive and unique from the other. Each one has been a total rethink which set pace for subsequent models.
Nothing wil blow the a900 out of the water.
Surely they can better it, but not to make something that blow it out of the water.
Even the Nikon d800, which is on almost every aspect better than the a900, it does not blow it out of the water.
I’m kinda with you Clyde but the A900 is so good that it will have a place in my bag (hopefully) for years to come. So for me it isn’t about replacing or “upgrading” the A900 but augmenting it. I can see using the A900 for some assignments and the EVF full frame for my concert work. Having the EVF display realtime exposure compensations in a constantly changing lighting environment is a big deal and if they can provide competitive high ISO performance it is a no brainer for me.
The concept that “Pro” is a one size fits all description is just dumb. Pro’s have different needs for different subjects. I’m a “pro” but will use the right tool for the right job and that means taking into consideration the full evaluation of camera body, lenses, scene and audience. If that means using a polaroid land camera over a D4 if the situation merits it, then so be it.
Calling SLT “non Pro” is just an insult to someone who recognizes the merits of the technology for their own “Pro
” uses. We don’t need people like that around here – take a hike Doogie.
That’s right Chad. The 9’s have always augmented each other. They were never simple upgrades in the same body, like Canon Leica everything or Nikon F1/F2, F5/F6, or even Olympus OM-1’s to 4’s.
Still owning a single copy of every 9, my a900 isn’t going anywhere. The new 9 is never “better” than the older one. It’s just different. I certainly loved the vertical grip of the Maxxum 9, but the journalism was still preferred on the one handed 9xi. And when quiet manual wind was desired, nothing compares to the 9000.
The only thing that bothers me is that Sony has completely reversed the Minolta model. It used to be that the 9’s were released first, and set pace for 7’s, 5’s, and 3’s. Towards the end of the line, special 8’s and X50’s were released to give clues to upcoming new 9’s soon to follow.
Now with Sony, they release 9’s last. Or perhaps the new 9 skipped a generation and will again set pace for future developments.
WHAT WE NEED (and would be a GREAT hit), is an a900Ti edition (like they did with Maxxum 9Ti) after the end of its life cycle. An a900Ti with 36mp would be a fitting close to 9 series OVF cameras. Keep it non video and it would sell like crazy alongside a 50/1.2 ZA.
Astute…
A A900Ti does sound pretty tempting, though I don’t believe Sony has ever released a special edition, whereas its common practice among the original camera companies.
More the pity. I’d love it if they offered something along the lines of the 85 G D LE.
Edit: Actually Sony did offer a bronze coloured A100 and a silver coloured A350 as limited editions in Asian markets. Not really the same thing, though.
Admin, please don’t question the “sense” of Sony pursuing pro market by contradicting yourself. You say it requires “a huge effort”, yet deny the sense of a pro camera…
The a99 is the latest among many “huge efforts” all pointing towards FF pro support. Please don’t hurdle that momentum with guessing speculation from a non pro mindset.
I mean really… what does anyone think we’re missing? There is more available now than in all the 27 years I’ve shot pro with Minolta Alpha. Soon we’ll have four FF bodies to chose from both new and used. Don’t hamper the 2nd generation Alpha FF digital.
Not only are our cameras vastly more capable in many areas over CaNikon, but companies like Lens Rental are now supporting the line. Pixel King has HSS/TTL slaves in native Sony/Minolta shoe. Testing sites are super positive about lens quality, and forum user groups are sprouting up all over the place.
It’s on baby. More and more serious togs are becoming aware of the line and questioning why their CaNikoLeica’s don’t have articulating LCD’s or IS with 50mm lenses. More and more Sony enthusiasts are becoming brand loyal professionals.
Minolta Maxxum 9’s were always ahead of the curve for top shelf cams of their era. Sony did a good thing carrying that flag and we can surely expect the new FF to be spectacular and innovative beyond competition stuck in mechanical world. Minolta was actually quite successful for a time in both amateur and pro arenas, gaining market shares. And had it not been for losing two enormous law suits to Exxon and Honeywell, they’d still be around as a major player. Let’s not diminish any future potential by sabotaging efforts with shortsighted speculations… pah-leazzzze.
Amen
Big clunky camera with a built in vertical grip is awful to cart in the field for wildlife photography. I did that with the RD-175, and was glad to get the 7D which was much easier to handle in both vertical and horizontal. Vertical grip cameras are really more suited to studio shooting and such.
Nothing but SLT will really make it hard for Sony to get into the pro market. Pros need quick shooting that has a viewfinder without a EVF lag.
I agree about the built in vert grip Walter. It’s unnecessary and should remain an option. I keep my a900 grip in the 600/4 case, and only use it to balance lens on gimbal. But for all other lenses, the a900 is body bare, lighter, nimble, a real pleasure.
As for EVF, I understand and agree with your particular concern. But, there are other weighs on the scale of EVF vs OVF which cannot be denied. The NEX-7 has become so intuitive that I find myself longing for 9 series EVF, regardless of the shortcomings.
I agree, I am a firm believer in EVF.
The only lag is during high speed bursts.
EVFs still have terrible dynamic range as well
compared to what?
Clyde,
I really enjoy reading your perspective and it’s spot-on with how I feel. After more than four decades with various cameras of Canon, Nikon and Leica, I have never been more pleased than I am with the A900 and Zeiss. In fact, if the darn thing hangs in there until I can’t shoot anymore then its fine by me. Of course I’ll always want more quality glass but who wouldn’t? If on the other hand, Sony hits another home run I will buy it and stay loyal to Sony despite their pithy customer service.
Dan
Dan, having lunch today with a fellow tog, he expressed his frustration at trying to find a good quality pocket camera. He’s just returned his third Nikon after all three broke within weeks. I don’t know the model, but I couldn’t keep my Nikons in play without having at least one f4 in the shop at all times. I don’t think I ever had my full kit at any shoot.
And aside from the 90TS Canon lens (which isn’t even an L), every Canon product I’ve owned gets about two years before starting to creek and loose rigidity. The first gen EOS L lenses were rock solid. But as soon as they started putting IS into the lenses, the QC got sloppy. Just weird goofy error codes all the time.
Rarely a problem with anything Minolta/Sony/Alpha. Not a single problem in 20 years.
Walt, you just can’t help yourself, can you? Be honest, how much would EVF lag affect you when shooting your snails and frogs?
Besides, the only lag you get in the A77 is when shooting high speed, which I doubt you do regularly, judging by your photostream.
It makes logical sense that there will be at least 2 FF cameras from Sony, only that I am not sure which one will get the 24mp. It is possible that the 24mp sensor is geared toward fast, high iso work, like Nikon D4. So a higher-end A99 will have 14-16fps and clean high iso. It will be a great sports shooter at a price way below D4 ($3500-4500). Then A88 will have the 36mp sensor, and priced just below D800.
The other possible scenario is a 24mp A88 and a 36mp A99. This makes minimum sense (higher mp = higher end). But they will have to make a A99 with exceedingly good specs to enable fast shooting, thus priced like a Nikon d4 (~$6000). Then the A88 will be similar to a A77 with a phenomenon 36mp sensor, priced between $2500-2800.
Both of these scenarios are possible, and I believe the entry level FF will just cannibalize Canon’s 5D III sales (priced too high and not that great an update) The biggest obstacles for Sony are lenses lineup and service. Good to know that they have plans to update the telephone lenses (weather sealing is a must). And the current CZ lenses are just great (16-35, 24, 24-70, 85, 135, plus the rumored new 50). What they need now is to announce more affordable, FF lenses (16-35f4, 24-105f4, 28, 35 and 50) for the new FF users.
Another point of view is that there are types of photographers who take a built in grip model a bit more seriously, they are viewed as “top end” cameras (like it or not) and that alone may serve the A99 well. It’s not my personal POV but more from the broad camera market POV and how DSLRs are “judged”.
Having a top end model with a built in grip at the very least gives the impression of a very “serious” system. I could serve well to have the A99 with a built in grip and A88 without. If Sony are finally going to deem the 9 series professional, it certainly couldn’t hurt to offer two different body types at the higher end.
Carl
only snobs view a integrated grip as a necessary function. The last Film Nikon which is still judged the BEST FILM 35mm slr CAMERA EVER. Doesn’t come with a vertical grip standard. In fact there was a huge uproar in the US because you couldn’t get the f5 without the grip.
Personally I won’t ever buy a Alpha for reason mentioned before. No professional rental support. Samy’s in LA has ZERO Calumet has ZERO. Fotocare NYC Zero, Adorama NYC ZERO, I love my little nex 7. But I have a mamiya 35mm F3.5 stuck on the front of it and I have a nikon adapter for using my nikon glass on it. It would be nice to have a few real Sony Lenses for it but I’m not dieing to get a 16-50 f3.5-5.6 G. (barf variable aperture)
Nikon made the best film DSLR? I guess you haven’t tried the Minolta 7.
Yes, they did, and still do with the F6, which can still be purchased.
But to go back to your question, yes Nikon did make the best film DSLR’s.
The market spoke and the professionals spoke with their pockets.
Most of the iconic images you grew up with were shot by Nikon’s in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s, the other handful were either Canon or Leica.
Minolta did make great light meters! But they are out of business in the Photography world.
Again, the market spoke.
Business success is about more things than building a better mousetrap. A strong brand with good advertising and good support is important. Minolta has been quite able to make better products than Nikon since the era of Nippon and Chiyoda Kogaku, though that is often glossed over due to the other things Nikon does better.
I thought the iconic images i grew up with were shot on medium and large format?
In fact, many great photo’s were shot with lousy camera’s.
You clearly don’t shoot enough portraiture to warrant the grip in that case and thats fine, but please don’t brand those that do as snobs..
I hear ya Randy, and I know it’s common to rent… But geez, I’ve never had the desire to rent gear for paying clients that’s just been abused by countless previous photographers in who knows what environments. I just don’t trust it, and have been burned by it early in my career on more than one occasion.
Also, keep in mind, that just as the entire photo industry is rapidly changing, so too is the equipment rental business model. Yes you can still go into a store that harbors traditionalist prejudices, but the new model is to rent online.
Your Sony rental needs can now be met with both lensrentals.com and borrowlenses.com. I can only imagine that this model will grow, and become more affectionate to Sony products as time passes.
Joel thinking a camera is only professional if it has a vert grip permanently attached is SNOBBY. See Nikon F6 and eos 1 and minolta 9xi etc….. Needing a vertical grip is not the same. I shoot for advertising so my Leaf back in always in vertical config and I have a vert grip when its in the mamiya and not the in view camera.
Are you kidding? The whole commercial Ad photo world is all rental. I wouldn’t rent an lens online? WTH? Thats just even crazier. You don’t even see the lens before you rent it? I have NEVER had one piece of rental equipment fail when i have to rent. THE ENTIRE FEATURE FILM WORLD IS 100% RENTAL. Go to a Samy’s or Calumet rental dept at 7am and see how crazy packed it is renting equipment. I own all my studio gear. I own just those pieces that I use on a regular basis. I don’t own things I don’t use at least 3 times a month. I can’t even fathom renting something that is shipped to me. That is the Professional suicide. What if it doesn’t work? Do they have a teleporter that gets you another one? then I have to get all my extra grip at one place and my lenses another? thats a waste of my time. One place to get it all one place to return it all. All that being said I have NEVER rented a single piece of 35mm equipment ever. Only lighting, grip and medium and large format gear. My f5 was a rental camera that I bought to go with my F3 that I used in college. (although not that much as I have a degree in Advertising photography so 65% of my classes where view camera) 35% was editorial as I was already working for the post dispatch before college then the rochester free press during college.) When we go on location to someplace like South Africa I know I can get Nikon Glass. I doubt I can rent Sony glass.
Sure I understand your position. And no, I’m not kidding. I’ve been burned so many times on rental gear not performing that I refuse to use it from anywhere, local or online. I can’t imagine taking on an assignment with equipment that I haven’t tested myself.
But if you must rent, there are options for Sony gear. And for me, your local rental argument doesn’t hold up. As you said, the rental shops are packed… so if your gear breaks on shoot, they most likely won’t have a replacement for you anyway. They certainly didn’t for me. Seriously, they’re not holding a backup replacement in stock ready to teleport anywhere. It’s on assignment in the hands of your competition.
Yep, well-put Carl.
I still remember A900 reviews where noone dared to compare it with “serious” full frames because it didn’t have a build-in grip and weathersealed body.
Yes, it’s dumb, but that’s how many people view the whole thing – especially when they can get external grip for something as cheap as 650D (shame though that Sony got rid of grips in everything up to semi-pro level). So having “pro-looking” camera in it’s range could bring some good praise for Sony.
schillers let you down? City photo let you down? I grew up working with Mr. Kessler at the Post(went to school with his son) . Then I spent 2 years assisting in St. Louis for Bruton Stoube and Dick Voyels (in reverse order) before finally ending up in NYC. (and RIT in their somewhere haha) I rented more gear in St. Louis from those 2 companies then I can even fathom and never once had a thing go wrong. In NYC never had a rented item fail. Declined some things before renting it on rare occasions. Rental houses can’t afford to have their gear fail because people will stop using them. The only camera I have ever had a problem with NEW was my NEX 7 that showed up DOA then took 3 months to get back. BAD IDEA. When I was in School Canon Donated $500,000 worth of gear to our school and that is just one of several. Leica and Nikon and Sinar/bron and Calumet all donated to RIT. WHY? Cause they want to future pros and they get them. I have a directly line to Nikon and calumet reps (leaf and sinar as well but they are only pro so thats expected) Sony Doesn’t even have a pro rep for still camera’s. If you have a cinealta Sony you might get a reps number or a HDCAM SR Deck. Sony can’t make its mind what its doing.
I’m glad renting works for you Randy. We know a lot of the same people but my previous comment was lost and I’m not going through it again.
ctphotographx.com
Why do people think Sony wants into the pro market?? They don’t even want to make cameras. They just want to produce sensors and profit.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Sony looses money due to the A mount.
I agree to an extent. I tend to believe Sony doesn’t care to enter the pro market at this time or maybe even the next few years…but I do believe that they want pros to use their bodies. That may seem contradictive, but it is not. If they don’t market to pros; they don’t have to build support for pros.
I guess all those cameras with the Sony name on them are nothing but optical illusions.
No but most of the lenses Sony makes for the a mount are. All rebranded Minolta lenses. Besides the Zeiss and some g lenses. The 70-200 is rebranded.
Oops…I forgot rebranded tamron as well.
Don’t take offense of what I say. I’m being truthful.
Sony has designed a good number of new lenses, in addition to the Zeiss lenses. But Sony as an slr marque is the successor to Minolta, after all, so there’s nothing wrong or unusual or reprehensible with Sony still using rebranded Minolta lenses.
Except most of those designs are 20+ years and Sony is still charging a premium for lenses that have not been updated in decades.
I think something like that, Sony knows is out for a Pro-Market, not only do you need body and high quality lenses but professional support and accesories too!. But Sony can be a real winner in a high technical advance or the Prosumer market and this make sense, is the Sony territory, gain the mass market.
Some time ago i post about two full frame bodies if i remember correctly i called A88 and a99 too, been a A88 @24mpx a more multimedia oriented and the A99 @36Mpx best photographic oriented, as Canon 7D and the 5D.
Obviously both FF machines are welcome 😉
Professional line would mean high quality FF glass. The Zeiss 24-70 as an offering as a standard lens is not enough. Also Sony have never developed a Tilt and Shift lens. After purchase support for commercial photographers is also a MUST if Sony wants to compete wuth Canon and Nikon. The latter offer a full hire service for both bodies and lenses if your gear happens to need an emergency repair (a colleague of mine had a wedding to shoot – using Sony. The hot shoe became loose and he was unable to operate his flash. He had to hire a Canon for that weekend as nil was available in Sony). He has subsequently sold all his Sony gear and bought a complete Canon system.
Not only was the Sony DSLR not made robust enough (weak plastic hot shoe rails) but there was no hire back up in the event of gear failure.
Canikon is a no brainer. I do not know if Sony plans to change its modus operandi ref profesional systems / support.
Malcolm Lyons, NZ
Care to explain why T&S is a must for Sony? You got T&S lens? Know anyone that do? Seen people shooting with T&S lens?
For me answer is: “no” for all of these, although I seen one guy with T&S lens… in a bag.
It’s nice thing to point out against Sony, but from practical point of view – it’s none of an issue.
Especially when you can get outstanding Schneider T&S lenses with native A-mount.
Did he not have a backup body?
Sky walker said:
‘Care to explain why T&S is a must for Sony?’
No its not a must – yes I do have a tilt lens (Pentacon 6 Arsat with adapter). Just one thing that Canon and Nikon make(at a loss I beleive) because they care enough to fully furnish the pro market even if it costs them.
Malcolm in NZ
NO
Sounds like a bad idea even if he is shooting Canon or Nikon. Their gear has failures too.
IMHO, the only way for Sony to penetrate the Pro market is to define a new segment … doing things that the conventional, like Canon and Nikon don’t … how about a SLT Square Format in the region of 40s Mpix, with great dynamic range (like D800) and colour depth of 16-bits couple with great auto-focus Carl Zeiss lens will be a killer for Studio, Landscape and Fashion photography. Sony should mirror her success just like what she does to her NEX series! Come on Sony … Just Do It!!!!
If Sony makes that sensor. It would be for Nikon. Then after Nikon uses it. Maybe in a Sony camera.
Someone sounds bitter because Nikon once got to use a Sony sensor first the past few years. And it’s still speculation as to why that happened (was Sony even ready with a FF SLT to use it?)
Sign me up for one of those.
Sony already does what CaNikon doesn’t, won’t, can’t.
And though I appreciate your comments, I just don’t understand the desire for square format. Not even the Medium Format cameras do that any longer. I don’t know of any square format magazines either.
When I shot Hasselblad, I quickly converted to the 645 backs over the square ones. And the argument was completely settled when I traded Hassy for Fuji 680.
I’d much rather crop a rectangle TO a square than crop a rectangle FROM a square. Most of my client brochures and magazine pages are rectangles. Either way, chip is wasted. But square format is the novelty, not the norm. And considering that many Alpha lenses have rectangular rear baffles, I just don’t see how square format is in the picture for Sony.
Because it frees you from worrying about the orientation of the camera, the orientation of the flash, how you mount it on the tripod, whether or not you need your vertical grip, and lets you focus on the business of taking photographs. The fact that a lot of lenses have a bigger image circle than necessary to cover 36×24 is an added bonus.
Yeah I get it. There are theoretical benefits and I understand how those conclusions are gathered. And I genuinely hope anyone who desires such things will get them from Sony. Expanding a camera format would get a LOT of great attention… heh, and probably infuse the forums with a great new format debate topic beyond high ISO noise or EVF vs OFV.
Just not for me. Not at this time at least.
Carl, have you ever noticed how the a900 lens mount is wider than Minolta? Though the internal functions are identical, Sony designates the Minolta mount by that Orange (Cinnabar) circle, and then extends it even further with more metal than what seems necessary.
I’ve always wondered if that was for future potential mounting of larger heavier lenses required for an oversized sensor with new lens line. Almost a hint of treading into Leica S2 territory, whereas current Alpha FF lenses would be useable with reduced chip coverage.
The internal diameter is the same, though. Actually, rather one being one larger boss, it’s two concentric ones, so it seems more cosmetic than functional.
Moving to a slightly larger format without losing backwards compatibility would be fine by me, I prefer larger formats. I would have gone with a MFDB system rather than the A900 if they had offered better price/performance at the time I shifted from film to digital.
I thought it might help support larger lenses designed for MF.
You know, the NEX-7 Emount is identical in size to my Olympus OM-1 FF mount, which of course is slightly smaller than A-Mount. Point being, that E-Mount could support FF (especially with short registration distance), and that makes me wonder if current A-Mount could also support a slightly larger chip size, hopefully with short registration too!
E mount has exactly the same internal diameter as the Leica M mount, so of course it could. The problem is, lenses for narrow mount systems bend the light rays in an hourglass shape >< to avoid any vignetting issues, but that results in the light hitting the sensor on a sharp angle, and the current state of Sony's microlens technology isn't up to snuff. The need for bring the rear nodal point forward is also the reason current E mount lenses are so long.
Makes sense. My 28/2 with adapter isn’t much larger (if any) than the ZE24/1.8. Same with the 50’s.
No – did not
I would not call any camera a99. If there are two, call them A85/A95 or A87/A97. Put a hint in the coding that this is not the end of the road for the family.
A99 MKII/III/IV/V…
Personally I think Sony should name their FF flagship the A1
then A1 MKII etc
A1 is a double positive and they could provide a free case of steak sauce with each purchase
I love what Sony is doing with sensors, however:
The SLT concept has already shown a loss of resolution when compared to the same sensor without the translucent mirror. You can see it with the Nikon D3200 vs A77. someone did a test where he used an A77 and removed the translucent mirror. The difference in resolution was clearly visible in small details.
Sony is facing a real dilemma: If they try to put their 36mp sensor in an SLT, the Nikon 800/800E will walk all over it for resolution. They will need the ability to easily remove the translucent mirror for high end work, then they lose the fast focus. Very interesting times ahead. Perhaps they will find a way to boost the processing speed for the on chip CDAF.
I love my NEX 5n and hope to see an affordable full frame version. I think Sony would be wise to concentrate on the enthusiasts, where the buzz is generated.
Well said. Autofocus relying on mirrors and alignments will soon be a thing of the past. The trend toward higher resolution with accurate focus is pulling the disguise off the SLR as well as SLT.
Faster image acquisition times are also enabling several image acquisitions within one exposure, to post select or post combine for optimum focus. Nikon already does something similar in their D800 dual image “HDR” where two exposures are made within the same shutter window and later processed into a high dynamic range image. The same engineering brilliance will soon make the totally mirrorless camera outperform SLRs and SLTs.
question is “how soon”? Cause I’m sure it won’t happen in next 3 years, and nearly sure it won’t happen in next 8 years.
No pro is going to switch systems. That said there is still room for Sony in the pro market because any new aspiring pros not already invested in a system would be willing to choose Sony if they made a superior product. And enthusiasts who already have Alpha lenses would also have good reason to stick with Sony.
Uh, I just did. I love these blanket statements.
Very true. When you’re wanting outright image quality, the pellical mirror is too much of a compromise in terms of light loss and softness. It’s absolutely essential that Sony have the equivalent to a (pellical) ‘mirror up’ feature which is able to display the image read off the sensor through the finder. CDAF speed isnt all that important these situations as it’d mostly only apply to studio or landscape situations where the subjects were stationary of moving slowly.
How many fps shall this A88 have? Any ideas?
A pro and a ‘less-pro’ full frame body makes a lot of sense for Sony.
However, if the ‘cheaper’ body is costing $2500-2800, then Nikon will eat their lunch and not even leave any crumbs for them.
Built-in grip or not, I would LOVE a proper Sony Professional Full Frame body.
Honestly, I would be happy to pay $4000+ for one with the following:
– Shutter cycle of 300K
– Substantial on-board memory to allow for unlimited RAW burst to the size of the card
– Built-in wi-fi for wireless tethered support with Mac/Windows 64-bit
– 102-point wide range AF
– Selectable 12-bit & 14-bit RAW
– High-bit rate HD 1080/60/24P video with manual audio controls
– Better memory card support for professionals – the ability to write two cards simultaneous for instant backup
A small internal SSD (16gb), should be cheap enough to put in the larger FF bodies. Fast capture to SSD, then slowly copy towards the SD, CF, or MS cards. ¡That feature would be killer!
Hope the A99 comes with similar or better 36Mp sensor. Its time to start saving up. Cant wait for that day to happen.
I was understood that there was 2 (two) 24Mp models coming up in 2012 and then, a 36mp model next year. A850 and A900 replacement this year (let’s say, A85 at 2000USD and A95 at 2500-2900USD) and then the new flagship in 2013 (with built in vertical grip, let’s say A1 as other has suggested…alpha one, the beggining of a new series)
Whatever camera that has a full frame sensor made by Sony makes sense right now, they just need to release it already! I’m in if they release A850 replacement at 2000USD and excellent features for that price.
Sony will do fine in the pro market because they have honored the original principle that Minolta was founded upon… That being a Japanese-German camera union.
No other Japanese camera has affiliated itself with German groove as much as Minolta/Sony. Though Contax enjoyed German glass, Minolta was actually making Leicas, who actually licensed lens designs from Minolta too. Now Sony continues that tradition with the only ZA AF capable lens line.
Silly to suggest Alpha isn’t suitable for professional digest.
How did that work out for Minolta? I mean Konica? Oops, Sony?
It worked out great. Minolta market share was always on the rise.
What killed Minolta was the two enormous law suits lost to Exxon and Honeywell. $127 million to Honeywell alone… That’s more than twice what Gates paid Apple to kill the Newton, and infuse the company with cash enough to save it.
Please don’t doubt the professional caliber of Minolta branded products. How quickly we forget they made the best light meters and scanners too. They were way in the game my friend.
Trust me, i loved and used Minolta product in the 80’s and even owned a few Maxxums 7000 and 9000 with the exxon double x.
Even owned an XK and my first camera was an XG-M.
That does not change the fact that at the height of their market share, the working professionals still used Nikon and Canon as their go-to product.
Although they almost exclusively used Minolta light and flash meters.
Sony isn’t making those however…
Kenko got those patents
Gates paid because he was about to lose a huge law suite over the EXACT COPYING of quicktime code in Windows media player. $125 Million. Same reason that Minolta hade to pay Honeywell. It wasn’t a simular AF system it WAS honeywells. My only issue with Sony is that they are somewhat like Amiga in that they dont’ seem be in touch with the user as much as they should and the engineers seem to be running to much of the show which is why they release their new technology once a week instead of saving up features to ad one every 18 months to a a couple years like Canon, Nikon and Leica.
Almost any camera is suitable for a pro. A camera is a camera. A pro with a D4 or a 5Dmk1…their shot would be the same regardless.
I would not place too high of expectations on the A88. The SLT technology is getting better, but it won’t outperform the high end Nikons. Secondly, it will likely be overpriced.
The A77 really was a disappointment. Too many megapixels, poor JPEG engine, too noisy… Hopefully there’s no more excuses.
Steve, is there a print size limit that you’ve found unsuitable at specific higher ISO settings with the a77?
My point is, that I’ve got magazine covers and fashion editorials published with 3.5 to 6mp cameras (Fuji S1 and Canon 10D). They look great and never a complaint from any art director anywhere about noise levels. Even now, I’ll use the Sony a200 at ISO 800 with no problems for model portfolio prints up to 9×12 (larger than magazine).
I just don’t get the “noise” argument unless there is a consistent need for publishing 24×36 prints at 1600 iso for some consistently strange client needs. If that’s not the majority of need, then what is the issue you’re having with a77 noise levels?
Also, I think I heard somewhere that the next gen EVF is supposedly twice the resolution of current a77/NEX7. It may be more to your liking. I’m satisfied with the current offering.
You really don’t get the Noise argument.
Let’s make it simple…
You are paying same or similar money for a camera, Sony or Nikon or Canon.
2 out of the 3 have far better high ISO capabilities, and the 1.4 lenses are letting in 1.4 amount of light, not 30% less light due to SLT.
2 out of the 3 give you far greater professional support.
2 out of the 3 give you a far greater depth in rental options and support anywhere in the world.
2 out of the 3 have a far greater depth in accessories (original and aftermarket) as well as far more available lenses.
It’s pretty simple, why pay the same or slightly less, when there are far better choices out there.
For those that argue that they can still mount their 20+ year old lenses on the Sony and have IS, that’s great!! But i might want to remind them that a company that produces items for sale will not stay in business long with a customer base like that… just ask Minolta
“Just ask Minolta”? Please acknowledge that CaNikon has decades worth of legacy lenses that also compete with their new glass too.
And maybe it’s just me, and probably is… but 2 out of 3 of the above mentioned companies kept me swimming in repair bills on gear that just breaks for no reason.
Now seriously, what jobs is the a77 preventing anyone from getting? I’m coming to the conclusion that no one EVER makes a print any more, or understands anything about offset press. Printing is much more forgiving than pixel peepers give credit to. The real world differences are negligible if not completely invisible.
The stuff I send to print, and publication looks absolutely horrible with over sharpening and noise artifacts. You’d be shocked at how bad it looks on screen at 100%. But print it out, and you’ll find that it looks perfect.
Really, this pixel peeping is a make believe ghost that has been invented to support unwarranted complaints. Just take your 3200iso image in for a decent double page tabloid size lab print and see for yourself. It’ll look like your monitor view at 33%… even on glossy paper. Print on fine art cotton rag and get away with murder on high iso images that were thought otherwise unusable.
To both Carl and Clyde… apologies for coming on strong.
You are both right in believing that Sony does make very capable cameras, and that these cameras today afford us far greater picture taking capabilities than we had even a few years ago. Enjoy your cameras, and I truly do hope that Sony makes a great FF to satisfy the needs of all Alpha users out there.
Right on Dakota.
Sounds like you’re just looking for things to dislike. Which is fine, you can shoot whatever you want, but it does raise issues regarding why you’re spending precious moments of your life shouting at the sea here.
@Dacota
In fact only one have better high ISO capabilities – Nikon. Canon not. All other points are right, but for example…when I simply want to chose good not very expensive zoom 70-300…oops, Sony is better choice. I want cheap portrait lens for crop camera, not only fast, especially portrait….ooops, Sony better choice and so on. And some thing in additional. Colors. Why to pay at all for so much options you may be never use if you simply can’t get colors you like by default, may be with small correction in RAW converter and not after hard work in PS?
Nikon and the actual ruler of the High ISOs: Pentax 😉
As for lenses – well, it works in both ways. I wanted to buy tele zoom lens and I’d be delighted if Sony would offer something like Canon 70-200 mm f/4 L USM. Nikon doesn’t have anything interesting, Sigma doesn’t either, so I eventually bought (back then barely released) Tamron 70-300 USD. It’s really good lens with excellent AF, but… I’d enjoy something with f/4 at long end & better optical quality by far more. There’s a beercan but… AF and coatings are a bit… previous-era. >_<
@Sky_walker
The price for 70-200/4L IS is not middle at all. There are a lot of excellent prime lenses in many systems that cost too much for hobby. Some times you have no choice and need to buy expensive lens for some special usage, but this is not the case.
Fair enough and valid point, all systems have their pluses and minuses.
Nikon does make a relatively inexpensive 70-300VR as well as a 55-300VR for DX (crop sensor).
Nikon also makes a 50 1.4 and 50 1.8 that many are using on crop sensors. They also just came out with a new 85 1.8G which all reports claim that it is an excellent lens.
As far as colors, it is very subjective, but Sony does have very nice colors out of the camera with very little work needed.
Cheers bas076!
2 out of 3 …
Look at most of the testshots, they tend to be done with a 50/1.4 or something like that.
1 out of 3 gives you a 1½-2½ stop noise advantage when shooting that lens handheld. (I’m giving one full stop away because of the SLT design).
You have to look at the system, all systems have their issues and their strong points.
Nikon shooter here…I’ve put off my next camera purchase to see what Sony does with this rumored A99. If it is FF and has focus peaking, I’ll buy one. Otherwise, I’ll supplement my bag with a D800.
I love using older MF lenses, and while using a split prism focusing screen helps, sony’s focus peaking is simply fantastic for manual focusing. My Nikons will become my autofocus and flash/strobe platform, while the A99 will become my manual focus with available light platform.
I want FF super compact. EVF/OVF I don’t care. Both are possible and the first company to make it wins.
This is how close the possibility is… See here:
http://www.ctphotographx.com/clients/dshot/OlyNEX.jpg
If Sony releases a FF nex…forget the A99! Think of the lens possibilities because of all the adapters available! Leica, Voigtlander,Contax, Canon FD, Olympus Zuikos, Takumars, Nikkors…
The rumored hybrid mount? That would be a dream come true! I wonder how long it takes Canon/Nikon to react to that kind of camera.
Yummmm hybrid… rhymes with donuts!
? please explain how that would work.
Flange distance differs, diameter is almost the same..
It is easy to push a e-mount lens thru the hole of the a-mount. – With a hammer! Tricky otherwise…
One way is of course to let the camera have native e-mount,
and allow an a-mount adapter to be mounted onto that.
– But that have already been done twice, with different solutions, and I don’t see a lot of cheering about any of these …
And don’t start talking aboud FF NEX, people starts dreaming, only to wake up dissapointed.
And for those hwo are disappointed, who will you be disappointed on? Soy never promised an FF.
Well it doesn’t have to be NEX FF… But a NEX Style FF mirrorless is the idea. Built from the ground up with hybrid mount and open source allowing companies like Conurus to produce fully functioning adapters.
And E-Mount doesn’t have to fit inside A-Mount when the registration distances are so different.
It sounds like a death note allowing open source lens mounting. But today’s world appreciates and respects open source platforms. And that would allow Sony to concentrate on chugging out the bodies like hotcakes. What a great way to tempt competitive users to put a Sony in their bags.
I’ve already got the lenses. 28/2, 50/1.4, 85/2.8. As long as they don’t pull a Pentax and forget to add a viewfinder.
What the Zuikos? What lenses Carl?
No, in A mount. Back in the days before all high-end lenses were Zeiss lenses with 72-77mm filter threads.
Just a bit of sidetrack, not sure why SONY can’t get it right like Fujifilm for lens selections:
http://www.fujifilm.com/news/n120626.html
My whole life is waiting for SONY to come out with all these lenses.
Oooh, 23/1.4. Sexy.
That’s what happens when the word “Pro” is in the camera name.
Sony 16mm F/2.8 not sexy enough? Hahahaha.. just kidding, of course.
I don’t think Sony will sell many FF cameras for two reasons.
1st they don’t have the range of high quality lenses Canon or Nikon have and
2nd if the Nikon D600 rumor is true (FF for $1600 to $1800) than most high end consumers would buy that instead of the probably more expensive Sony.
I am not saying they wouldn’t sell any but they won’t sell any significant numbers. To me it’s a bit like their half hearted approach of the NEX cameras with their really small body sizes which is negated by their large lenses. Also the noise advantage they should have over the 4/3 sensors did not really eventuate. They should completely redesign their FF cameras away from the SLR style. A new design should take more advantage of the viewfinder being a monitor. This would give Sony truly unique market position with no direct competition. The FF – SLR style bodies won’t get them anywhere.
I completely agree with Achim and I would add
1. IMPROVE THE CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!
2. Make the new models have a retro feel similar to the fuji
3. Top quality glass! Zeiss ARE YOU SERIOUS ARE NOT?
We have been waiting a bit too long for the new camera enough is enough! I hope the new model works extremely well in low light… Please
STPS *1st they don’t have the range of high quality lenses Canon or Nikon have*
I never understand this argument with regards to FF.
There are gaps in the APSC and NEX line up but most of the FF lenses are best in class and cover the usable focal length.
A few off the top of my head that best the Canikon alternatives.
Zeiss 16-35
Zeiss 24-70
Zeiss 24/2
Zeiss 85/1.4
Zeiss 135/1.8
Sony 70-300G
Sony 70-400G
Sony 100/2.8 (Maybe not best in class but comparable with the best)
Sony 135 STF
Sony 500/4
The upcoming Zeiss 50 is likely to be a winner too.
There are others such as the 70-200 and 300/2.8 that are older designs but are in the process of being updated.
We do need a better 30/35G and some people want a 24-105/f4.
My point is that I’m always hearing this same old complaint on the forums but have never met anybody who had a few of these lenses and still needed more capability.
If I could afford 3 of these zooms and perhaps a couple of the primes for good measure, I can’t imagine in what photographic situation I would feel ill equipped.
I cope very well with the lenses I have and they are not as good as the lenses listed above. I cannot help but think that this argument comes from gear lust and not from any real world photographic need (with the exception perhaps of some very specialised form of photography that I cannot think of at the moment).
Nivrakk
You see the Nikon list of lenses is much longer with more choice in terms of quality and price. I agree not everybody needs every lens but you are more likely to get what you want for the price you are willing to pay.
AF NIKKOR 14 mm 1:2,8 D ED
AF-S NIKKOR 14-24 mm 1:2,8G ED
AF Fisheye NIKKOR 16 mm 1:2,8D
AF-S NIKKOR 16-35mm 1:4G ED VR
AF-S NIKKOR 17-35 mm 1:2,8D ED
AF NIKKOR 20 mm 1:2,8D
AF NIKKOR 18-35 mm 1:3,5-4,5D ED
AF NIKKOR 24 mm 1:2,8D
AF-S NIKKOR 24mm 1:1,4G ED
AF-S NIKKOR 24-70 mm 1:2,8G ED
AF NIKKOR 24-85 mm 1:2,8-4D
AF-S NIKKOR 24–85 mm 1:3,5-4,5G ED VR
AF-S NIKKOR 24-120 mm 1:3,5-5,6G ED VR
AF-S NIKKOR 24-120 mm 1:4G ED VR
AF-S NIKKOR 28 mm 1:1,8G
AF NIKKOR 28 mm 1:2,8D
AF-S NIKKOR 28-70 mm 1:2,8 ED
AF-S NIKKOR 28-300 mm 1:3,5-5,6G ED VR
AF-S NIKKOR 35 mm 1:1,4G
AF NIKKOR 35 mm 1:2D
AF NIKKOR 50 mm 1:1,4D
AF-S NIKKOR 50 mm 1:1,4G
AF NIKKOR 50 mm 1:1,8D
AF-S NIKKOR 50 mm 1:1,8G
AF Micro NIKKOR 60 mm 1:2,8D
AF-S Micro NIKKOR 60 mm 1:2,8G ED
AF-S NIKKOR 70-200 mm 1:2,8G ED VR II
AF-S NIKKOR 70-300 mm 1:4,5-5,6G ED VR
AF NIKKOR 80-400 mm 1:4,5-5,6D ED VR
AF NIKKOR 85 mm 1:1,4D
AF-S NIKKOR 85 mm 1:1,4G
AF NIKKOR 85 mm 1:1,8D
AF-S NIKKOR 85 mm 1:1,8 G
AF DC NIKKOR 105 mm 1:2D
AF-S Micro NIKKOR 105 mm 1:2,8G VR
AF DC NIKKOR 135 mm 1:2D
AF NIKKOR 180 mm 1:2,8D ED
AF-S NIKKOR 200 mm 1:2G ED VRII
AF Micro NIKKOR 200 mm 1:4D ED
AF-S NIKKOR 200-400mm F4G ED VR II
AF-S NIKKOR 300 mm 1:4D ED
AF-S NIKKOR 300 mm 1:2,8G ED VR II
AF-S NIKKOR 400 mm 1:2,8G ED VR
AF-S NIKKOR 400mm 1:2,8D ED II
AF-S NIKKOR 500 mm 1:4G ED VR
AF-S 500 mm 1:4D ED II
AF-S NIKKOR 600 mm 1:4G ED VR
AF-S 600 mm 1:4D ED II
The Canon list is equally long and for Sony to build up a list like this will be a big effort for very little reward initially. And long term they can only hope that they can increase their market share significantly. I am sure Canon and Nikon would not sit still and watch Sony taking their business. As I said before, developing a new category would be a much better way for Sony to increase overall camera market share.
This sounds like quantity vs quality.
Something to keep in mind, some of the FF lens choices for Canikon are updated old designs. While Sony’s Zeiss and G teles are much newer.
riley o’brien
It’s not really quantity vs quality it’s more like you have the choice between more expensive high quality lenses and less expensive low quality lenses. Of course I wish I could only buy high quality lenses but the reality is I might only be able to have one really good lens and some average lenses but with nikon and canon I have the choice with sony I don’t have the choice.
The reality is most prosumers only have a tight budged and whoever will come with a low cost FF camera and lenses first will pick up the most sales from people who upgrade from APS-c sized cameras. And as they will need new lenses anyway there will be less Brand favour involved in the buying decision. Eventually those people will buy better more expensive lenses so there is some money to be made. So if you want additional costumes for the FF camera segment you have to offer a good entry price. If sony doesn’t do that they will never pick up a decent market share in the FF camera segment. The only other way of increasing FF market share is offering something that is truly unique like a mirror-less FF camera (similar to the NEX cameras) .
The whole discussion about sony’s FF market attack reminds me a lot of when Yamaha introduced the 1200 Tenere motorcycle and all the Internet forum discussions went in favour of the Yamaha because it would be the better bike and beat the sales of the BMW 1200GS easily even though on paper the Yamaha was actually worse then the BMW and even had a higher price (in Europe). A few years down the track everybody knows that Yamaha’s attack on the BMW was a complete failure (from the sales point of view). If sony is not serious about there attack on canon’s and nikon’s FF cameras they will end up the same.
STPS… What’s interesting is that Sony users can adapt most Nikon lenses to work on Alpha mount, albeit with limited functionality, but it can be done at reasonable cost with Leitax conversion mounts. That’s not counting NEX, of which I use some Nikkors with T/S adapters. But getting an Alpha mount on a Nikon is a feat I’ve yet heard to be accomplished.
The Conurus adapter is very Canon friendly to NEX as well. Point is, who actually has the larger selection of lenses here?
Just about anything can be adapted to anything, as long as it clears the mirror. However without an aperture control, it’s doubtful it’s worth the effort. In that regard Nikon G lenses are no better than Minolta AF ones.
Well, Carl, that’s not entirely true. You hardly can adapt Alpha or Canon lenses to Nikon… or Canon lenses to any other system (no control over aperture is crippling feature).
Alpha is quite decent in that respect – you can use Nikon, Pentax, and several other mounts without optical elements crippling image quality – although obviously sometimes it requires lens-surgery or swapping bayonet.
I for one certainly hope the new FF bodies have nothing like a retro feel.
So rumour is a new 24mpxl for fall (October? or later, or later) and a 36 sometime in March – April – May … 2013 – 2014 …. whatever, and I’m expected to go crazy and to replace the A900 with a exact same resolution A88 – why? You think the ‘pros’ will enthusiastically jump ship sometime in mid 2013 to take up on a camera that Nikon already released in 2012???? by then it’s old news.. oh ..because of a fancy schmancy electronic viewfinder which I’m sure most pros think of a techno curiousity rather than a genuine utility?? I’m all for liveview but if the SLT viewfinder fritzes out thats the ballgame. Why should I patiently wait maybe 8 – 10 months for a myth?? Theres a lot of movement towards the D800 and lot are ditching their Canon 5Ds for Nikon too by the way and others who were contemplating Leica are heading downwind as they can afford a couple of bodies and a bunch of good Nikon lenses – compared to the D3 these cameras are nearly disposable at that price. Pro’s also want certainty re support from the camera manufacturer and Sony isnt going the hard yards to build that confidence. I’ve seen plenty of cameras throw in the towel I dont think Sony is any more reliable than most.
Its the ‘Pros’ who invest a lot of money in a working kit that Sony has to win over, maybe theres a few curious ones out there who will give the new Sony a look but by the time Sony brings out a D800 competitor, the Nikon will be settled in, debugged and selling cheap – talk will be of the D800 replacement. This new hi end A99 piece of kit better be an absolute dragon killer or its going to simply be a financial looser for Sony who will then drag their heels again bringing out the A2001 or whatever visionary title its going to get. Again too late.
I remember a day when cameras had 15 or more year life spans. a900 had nearly a four year run… a virtual grandfather design by current standards. I don’t get too excited at a Nikon D800 that you suggest will be due for “replacement” sometime next year.
Cameras, for me, are extremely personal instruments. And like a master butcher that uses the same knife for decades, a union develops, controls become second nature, the tool disappears, allowing the tog to relate better to the subject at hand. The questions of “what it can do” have long been answered.
Ahhhkk… I’m used to waiting a decade between 9 series releases. I can wait a little longer.
I’m waiting NEX-9, no video, and various tricks, I have PHOTOSHOP.
Videoless camera doesn’t make a camera a better camera. That’s really going to hurt sales, though.
I have a friend who still travels with his trusty Plaubel 6×7. Shoots digital but swears the Plaubel is the better camera.
Pls. dont neglect current sony DSLR SDLT user also, there are looking for the highend machine to enter the pro doorsill.
I ve been waiting and waiting… I have some good Minolta lenses and I thought I would upgrade my Dynax 5d to sony`s FF but there is no point to wait… I am going to switch into Nikon ASAP… bye bye Sony !
should have bought A900 back in the day. It’s an outstanding camera. Even more outstanding ever since Lightroom 3.
It would be entirely flabbergasting if Sony revealed the A99 with a 16Mp sensor with high ISO in the hundreds of thousands as the new high-end and the A88 with a 24Mp sensor with high ISO at around 52000 as the cheaper alternative!
Of course , one can dream.
+1 for the FF 16MP…
In the meantime, I’ll keep shooting with my KM 7d from 2005 lol!
2012: a87 & a95?
2013: a97 or a99?
lol
Hello everybody. There is something I don’t understand about Sony. The fact that the high end (and professional) products of the photography division doesn’t converge with the professional Sony broadcast division.
I honestly think Sony should release a99 with 24MP and 12fps this fall as their flagship model for 2700$ and they should launch a88 with 36MP and 6-7fps to line up against the D600 next march. The 36MP shouldn’t be the flagship because it cannot do sports and if it is lined up against the D600 it will appeal the mass market and persuade them to think that they can get a 36MP camera for nearly half the price! This will cause Nikon to sweat especially if the D600 doesn’t come up with the AF motor.
Uhm, people crying “lens selection!” are just simply crybabies, IMO. How many of you use more than 3 lenses in a project? A guess not a lot. Sony has you covered with most lenses sizes, and dont forget about the awesome AF Zeiss lens. What more can any “PRO” want? I assure you, a lot of CANIKON pros are drooling at our Zeiss selection. Personally, I think if Sony want to to impress in the PRO market, they should start coming out with more accessories (like an upgrade of it’s Flash system), and maybe reintroduce the Minolta light meters. And if possible, give us better video capabilities (for example, I’d love to see the new FFs feature 120fps 1080p video, even if it’s capped at 10 seconds). That would certainly turn some eyes around. They have the tech, they have the support, and they would certainly have the customers. Impress us SONY! (AKA a loyal Sony A350, Sony A57 user)
+10 for upgrade flash system…
Start with removing the requirement for EVF to gain up just because a flash is attached. It’s so freaking annoying. And settle up on full compatibility for every camera past present and future to use the same damned protocols… or option to. The inconsistency of what works with what is getting crazy. Remove the confusion.
Remove all reflective metering. Auto flash output should be based entirely upon distance encoding from lens, possible with both D lenses and older non D by recording AF motor rotations. I’d actually like to see another type of metering based upon Sonar Distance Encoding from an on flash sensor (similar to Polaroid SX-70 sonar).
Otherwise, give Sony users a full kit with native OEM soft boxes, reflectors, real HV power packs, robust light stand mounts, built in RF, interchangeable heads, and customized flash brackets allowing for robust OEM quick connection for vertical/horizontal quick changes on location.
Oh… And a freaking Strobe/LED Vid light combo… preferably bare bulb for flash, and interchangeable dish reflectors (like norman 200) that are coated with LEDs for video.
i would wait for the high end model unless the semi pro model is at a level comparable to other full frames like the D800,
I posted much earlier about lack of high end glass for Sony FF.
I need to clarify. I own 7 prime lenses (6 M42 abd one Sigma AF) and 5 zoom lenses for my a850. One of my zooms is the Sony 70-400 g which is superb. I posess an old Minolta 10–400 APO, an old Tokina 20-35, an Angenieux 35-70 and as my walkaround a Contax Zeiss vario 28-85. It has taken 4 years to be satisfied with what I have (yes I know – – gear lust).
I have (and there is) more than enough solutions in glass for Sony. But Sony only has one very pricy mid range zoom of limited range – the Zeiss 24-70, albeit allegedly oustanding.
Sony have (IMO) made a tactical error in not having a cheaper, quality and more versatile standard zoom such as a 24-10 (dont think that the Minolta AF 28-135 is good enough for more than casual shots – its a deeply flawed lens – I have had one (may have been a bad copy))
In terms of after care it is up to the rental shops, not Sony to buy in stock for rental. I suspect that there is snob value in only buying in CaNikon as rental equipment.
Now there’s a business opportinity for the entreprenuer !
Malcolm in NZ
Sounds like you’d be even less happy with Canon’s lens line. The 24-105 L IS is really no better optically than the much older Minolta 28-135 (though it’s more practical and ergonomic), but is twice the price, the Canon 100-400 is about on par with Minolta’s equivalent and well bellow the Sony 70-400.
Right now the only AF lens that’s similar to the Contax 28-85 is a Conurus modified Contax N 24-85.
12 months! The endless and somewhat thankless wait continues…..
Let’s hope it’s not too little too late…..
Thank you – that has clarified the glass debate even further.
We are all so lucky that such good cameras and good glass is available in Canon, Sony, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Fuji , Ricoh et all.
The truth is that we are really all spoilt for choice and limited mainly by our psychologies, not our cameras.
Sony: make believe. Why don’t they just make the camera’s they make us believe they are making?
Very funny
I have the @580, its great but I bought it to compare against MF (Mamiya RZ II Pro and lenses/film). I thought that if I liked it I would get the @900 or successor, but now with no OVF and SLT only I think I will sell out the Sony, and go Nikon 800. After 1 year with the @580 I (with lots of care changing lenses) have dust in the viewfinder; lucky I can clean that and the sensor. what happens to a dirty ST mirror? Bye bye Sony.
You clean it. Easier than cleaning the VF.
you clean the mirror exactly like the sensor, only you don’t need to be uber-careful as replacing it costs like… 1/30th of replacing the sensor.
Additional benefit is that you very rarely clean the sensor as SLT mirror protects it from almost all dust (and a single dust practices on mirror aren’t visible on photos!)
Clearing the viewfinder is much easier, cause it’s sealed and there’s no dust gathering on the focusing screen. So you essentially just clean the front lens of EVF.
Despite of what people think – SLTs are far less troublesome then the traditional DSLRs.
Mirrorless is the future. Sony has a chance now to introduce a new FF 36MP camera that will leave the others behind. The question is will Sony do this? I doubt. Sony has tried before to lead, and failed greatly. Sony is now a follower and may likely remain so: why else give away exclusive rights to a new tech? A camera is more than its imager: functionality is a big factor. BUT, IF Sony could create a camera that operated simply yet comprehensively (ie dials instead of menus); produced outstanding photos for resolution, DR, noise, etc; continued with Zeiss lenses; and did all this for less price than Nk or Cn; the masses of serious amateurs would migrate to Sony/Zeiss. I would. Forget “pros”: they are too few for any manufacturer to make money; the money is in the amateur segment. I cling to my film cameras, because nothing in digital functions like them, nothing is built like them, and nothing yet produces higher IQ. Give me a comparable replacement, and I will convert to digital.
I agree with you here Al, though I am a bit wary still of the SLT. I will check some SLT viewfinders at the weekend, and try to be impartial. I do see some advantages with the EVF sometimes.
Bottom line now is; I want to upgrade the @580 by October at the latest, and there is nothing in the Sony range that is really much better. With the vague future that Sony certainly has, then Nikon for me seems the way to go. I wish the Mamiya wasnt so damn big and heavy, and I could afford a digital back for that though, then I would not need to bother with Sony/Nikon at all.
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would like to see a fullframe a-mount body without a mirror or slt technology! so i can keep my ff a-mount lenses.