I confess this is more a speculation than a rumor! But “something” made me suspicious. During my usual Sony patent search I found so many Sony patents that do explain the functionality of foveon like sensors. Unlike Bayer sensors the Foveon sensor uses an array of photosites, each of which consists of three vertically stacked photodiodes. The advantage is that you can have bigger pixels with greater light gathering ability, you have no color artifacts and no demosaicing is required. The drawback is that current sensors (from Sigma) are quite noisy.
Wild speculation: Sony keeps saying the A77 will be a revolutionary cameras. So what if the A77 has been delayed because Sony took time to develop a new 24 megapixel “Foveon” sensor? What do you think, is that something you would like to see in future cameras?
– Bayer sensor (Source: Wikipedia)
– Foveon X3 sensor (Source: Wikipedia)
– List of Sigma Foveon cameras at Amazon.
– The Sigma SD1 website.
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65 Responses
But I thought Nikon was getting the 24 too?
This is definitely a thing that could cause the moniker “revolutionary” to be used by the marketing people.
Especially since they can trump the Sigma with resolution, megapixels and most likely dynamic range, ISO sensitivity, AF speed, etc…
And I’m pretty sure that if Nikon will get the same sensor, that they will HAVE TO release a camera based upon it later than sony.
Let’s speculate some more.
Now I just need some dates.
I have good 1,000 EURO burning a hole in my pocket 😉
(I hope sony hears that)
I think that the mirror will still loud and the poor image algorithms.
Hi folks,
Off-subject here, but can anyone give me an idea of the future A77’s price range?
Here in Canada, the A55 body sells for 799,99 and the body + 18-55 goes for 899,99.
We are wondering if anyone here could enlighten us with some sort of approximation for the A77.
Many thanks!
I will receive that info in a few days. Promised 😉
What other information may you have along with pricing? 😉
CP+ 😀
Probably in the US$1,200 – $1500 range. Same as the A700 when introduced (1400).
My guess would be US$1399.
Tom you are very close…
I think the main reason it’s taking so long is because resourcs are focused on lower end cameras – where they make the money – Sony have said this themself. I think expecting anything other than a better viewfinder, a quicker camera, and other gizmos thrown in would be asking too much. If they just put a more modern bayern sensor in the camera it’ll be fine. The sensor was never really a point of complaint from Sony users, so if Sony pursuit this, that’s all good and well, but they need to refine the more important points first.
What they have said, Richard, is that the new camera will be revolutionary, will be great, will be amazing.
I’m talking about the Alpha and NEX line in general – Sony spoke of resources & that they’re not aimed at higher end equipment. I’ve read what they say about the A700 replacement too, “revolutionary”, we will see what that actually means for photographers I guess.
All of the cameras that appeared last year were pretty much ready by this time last year. All along–I would say since the moment they merged with the camera division of Minolta–Sony has been working on pro-level breakthroughs–you can see it in Sony’s patents. And it’s clear that in the last year and more Sony has put all of its efforts into enthusiast & professional cameras–and they are now calling them “professional,” rather than equivocating as they did at first. This year is the year of the 7-level cameras, it appears.
Yepp! The Bayer pattern is just a workaround to a technical limitation. The Foveon-Idea is as old as color film — and in the hands of Sony, I’m 100% convinced that it will be a success!
Again: Where can I place my order for an a900 with this sensor?
They’ve put all of their efforts into enthusiast and professional cameras? The only cameras that fit that category are the A700, A850 & A900. The rest are just 5 series and below, gadgety-toys. But we clearly disagree here, so I’ll leave it there.
I’m okay with Sony marking new technologies at advance to art,
and I’m sure Sony would not use it if it wasn’t ready for “primetime”.
From my point of view, one of Sony’s core profit centers is its semi processor business making and selling them to many of the other camera makers.
Sometimes I wonder if Sony doesn’t have an agreement with Nikon not to compete and on purpose lags behind (Nikon uses the same chip in its D3X as Sony does in it A850/A900 product, but Nikon tweaks it out).
But please realize that I’m not in the market for the A77 to replace my A850 bodys.
What’s the benefit of “lagging behind” and making a loss on the camera business?
Doesn’t make sense at all.
Best Day Ever.
I had a SD14 and loved the images from it but the camera was just a brick. Stuff a layered sensor in a Sony A7x series body.
Shiny!
of course they all have agreements
A Foveon like sensor wouldn’t hurt. I’ll buy this camera pretty much regardless of what sensor it has. I have 1500-2000€ to spend on this camera plus some other equipment (mic, assorted handles, batteries, storage cards, etc.)
I think that the a77 will just be a normal sensor. Perhaps for the generation after the a77, we could see it. I think already with just the SLT tech, people will be scared, let alone something entirely new all together. Besides, just because sony is taking an EPIC long time in the kitchen, doesnt mean they doing anything positive in there. I mean, sony fucked up with the slow timing for the a77 simply because of lack of resources (pro-sumer engineers) and horrible management, not because of a couple recent patents.
BodaFoto, Sony has been working on this tech as long as they have been in the dslr business–it’s not recent. I truly would not be surprised if Andrea’s speculation turns out to be true.
I would LOVE to have a foevon sensor in a sony body! Please Sony, make it true.
I don’t think Sony will change sensor tech, yet. Their sensors are class leading right now.
Everyone should read this in regards to the new sensor: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/978739/0#9282971
its highly unlikely.. a 24 megapixel foveon-like sensor would need roughly 72 million sensors (= 72 megapixel-bayer sensor.. ) ..a 24 million sensor chip on the other hand would only produce a 8 megapixel image.. so however you turn it, the outcome is most unlikely to happen.. i own a sigma cam and would never want sony to jump for that tech. the efficiency of sensor count to pixel count is better for the bayer pattern when the aiming for exactly the same image quality. on top of that there is the question of how the layering of sensor would work! everyone is complaining about the A55 semitransparent mirror tech.. but 2/3 of the light registered by a foveon-like sensor has to go through the other sensor layers which obviously is not optimal 😉
Sigma usually calculate that 3 colors x 8 bilions is 24Mpix. It is approximately equal to resolution of 15Mpix Bayer sensor. It is simmilar marketing tick to count dots not pixels in LCD.
24Mpix either on Foveon or Bayer will not be large at all. My bet is that 24Mpix should be Bayer sensor.
I meant that in case of 24Mpix on APS pixel size is very small and could be done (this year) with Foevon type tech. Or they are interpolated, not true 24Mpix.
I think sony should delay the a77 by another 14 months for a better sensor
😀
hey, I’ll wait for 6 years for a camera as long as my peers are jealous.
i think sony delay their FF as Canon will announce new FF soon. sony to use this to tackle canikon
Don’t you think they wuld save that for the “Flagship: camera. I don’t think Sony wants to make the A77, the new flagship. I know it’s APS-C vs FF, but I don’t think you want to build a lower model product that is substantially superior to your currecnt flagship.
That would be like say BMS buslding a new “4” series that was in every way superior to a 750Li. It doesn’t happen. Yopu introduce groundbreaking technology onto your Flagship, and then filter it down, that way you get the greatest return on your investment
wrong… just look at all MF cameras out there, they are no better in anything that a entry level DSLR, except the sensor, and there are a lot of people paying a lot of money because they want/need a better sensor only. Same with a77 and a900, no amount of technology can replace the physical size of the sensor, although i am sure a77 will cannibalize a bit of the a900 sales, but shortly after that the new replacement for the a900 will be ready 🙂
Another wild speculation: …and what, if Sony would announce the new FF and the a77, both with the layered sensor, the very same day? Rabbummambeng!
And imagine what this would mean to Canikons portfolio…: Plopp!
The “Ca” in Canikon is already eroding. Sony & friends is going to put a big dent in Canon’s APS-C market share. Without that market share, Canon’s ability to invest/innovate in FF is diminished.
Will Canon play ball and buy into Sony’s sensor program or will they give the ‘Rebel’ brand something to uphold? Time will tell, but the game is no longer called Canikon.
It is impossible in 2011 and for this price. I believe that for future FF.
Whatever the camera come from sony, if there is outstanding unaddressed issues are still exist, then i will not buy it.
So the 24mp is actually 8mp? So lame.
The wildest speculation I’ve heard is that there actually is an A77 being released this year 😀
It took sigma many many years of research to be able to up the resolution on its foveon sensors from 4.x MP to 15MP, so it would be highly surprising if the first Sony Foveon-type sensor is already 24MP. Off course Sony is a much larger company with many more resources so it could be possible. But if thats true then the resolution of that sensor would be astonishingly high!
“But if thats true then the resolution of that sensor would be astonishingly high!” If I remember right, that’s exactly what Sony is talking about…. 😉
Foveon like sensor would be interesting. This explains the obscene 24mp which by themselves will put off some people. I mean that on 24 mp aps-c sensor diffraction will kick in at f8.
I am not sure if this is real though if Sony aims 200 000 iso or may be only foveon chip can deliver this.
What about Fuji style sensor with variable size of the photo sites? May be 6mp huge sensors and the rest smaller. Thus at very high iso one gets low noise…..
Bayer sensors are really good for getting high effective resolution. But the demosaicing process definitely has its flaws. You are using only 33% of RGB resolution to make it look like 50%. Then thre are moire issues, stronger OLPF, etc. When megapixels are your primary goal bayer definitely is the way to go.
But I think the megapixel wars are pretty much over. I don’t think the consumer really cares if they have 24MP on an APS-C sensor versus 18MP versus 16MP. Better image quality is the name of the game.
Having each photosite spatially do all three RGB colors (like these Foveon sensors) does have very strong advantages. It’ll mean true 4:4:4 color, 100% RGB resolution. There were rumors of a three CMOS prism based Sony SLR; this makes much more sense.
New sensor tech almost never appears in large sensor cameras first. Point and shoot and small sensor industrial/CCTV cameras are used as beta testers for several years before hand.
Is it just me or I’ve seen this line more than twice??
However, the most important development in sensor technology in the last decade appeared for the first time in September of 2000 in the Canon 30D.
Quoting from Ron Parr’s Dule University FAQ entitled “Digital Photography FAQ,” Section L. “Sensors,” subsection 3. “What’s the difference between CMOS and CCD sensors?”:
“Canon was the first to bring high quality APS [CMOS] technology to consumers with the EOS D30, which was a truly groundbreaking product. The D30 incorporated several innovations from Canon in controlling noise, as described in this EE Times article. Some people have misunderstood the type of noise reduction described in this article. Nothing described in the article smooths detail across pixels, so there is no trade off between noise reduction and detail. The advances described in the article strictly improve performance with no negative side effects since the noise reduction is at the individual pixel level.”
Parr cites EETimes for 19 May 2000, in an article entitled “Canon uses CMOS sensor to gain digital edge.” In the article, it is stated that Canon would use the technology first in the EOS 30D, “to be marketed in September 2000.” The article further says that the new Canon CMOS sensor represented a “Triple breakthrough: on-chip noise reduction; electronic charge transfer; and on-chip programmable gain amplification.”
In other words, the biggest advance in sensor design for dslrs ever made [arguably] was introduced on a mid-range dslr in the same class as the A700/77. Sony could do the same.
@Dulaney – Regarding your statement about Canon’s introduction of the CMOS – that is a good point. I’ve been assuming Sony would only provide an initial small sensor because of typical development obstacles for ICs. Your comment about Canon productizing an APS sized ‘breakthrough’ is encouraging.
Even if it doesn’t come out this next product cycle, it seems Sony has been working this design, so I think it will eventually come out. Or perhaps some variation of a foveon sensor at first. For example, I think one of their patents had one photodiode for red, and one photodiode for Blue and Green.
Regarding the recent foveon like patent posted a few days ago, it is based on their Exmor-R back illuminated chip design and there are only minor variations in some of the embodiments. Because they are only small variations, it makes me think they are way past the conceptual phase and are truly working out the IC design and manufacturing nuances. That’s good news for us.
On a separate note, back a couple of years ago, I remember when one of the the Sony lead engineers said that although the Exmor-R design would not lead to substantially larger photodiode sites for DSLR sized sensor, it would allow them more freedom to develop “interesting” image sensor designs. He couldn’t say more that that.
Since Sony had tried so many variations of Bayer-based sensors by then and this guy was a seasoned engineer – I believed that the only new thing he would find interesting enough to mention would be a foveon like design. I believe his interview that was just after the introduction of the Exmor-R – So, it has been plenty of time to develop those “interesting” sensor designs.
Very interseting!
interesting*–if I could only type!
@Dulaney
Another recent foveon-like sensor patent
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2011/0019063.html
Below are some more interesting quotes from this recent patent. As you read them you’ll note that two things
1) Sony may try to develop these first for the video market, but that it’s applicable to other devices too.
2) Sony reasonably claims a big impact to sensitivity.
– – – – – – – –
From United States Patent Application 20110019063
1) Perhaps Video as first imaging technology to use foveon-like sensor from sony
“… The output pixel signal is processed by a predetermined signal processing circuit and output as a video signal to the outside….”
“….A video signal after signal processing is stored in a storage medium such as a memory or the like or output to a monitor….”
“….the present invention is not limited to a solid-state imaging device, but the present invention may be applied to an imaging device. The term “imaging device” represents an electronic apparatus having an imaging function, such as a camera system such as a digital still camera, a video camera, or the like, a cellular phone, or the like. In addition, the module form mounted on an electronic apparatus, i.e., a camera module, may be regarded as the imaging device….”
2) Big impact to sensitivity!
“… RGB lights are entirely photoelectrically converted, and the efficiency of light utilization per pixel is increased to 3 times as high as the dispersion using a color filter layer separately provided. Consequently, sensitivity is improved….”
Correction: Ron Parr is at Duke University, not “Dule” University.
That’s too much innovation in too little time. Sony’s not stupid. They’re going to milk the SLT thing for a while and then bring in new sensor technology when sales drop. You don’t pull 2 “get out of jail free” cards for one turn.
When they say “revolutionary” they probably mean the 16fps, SLT, and low price…and possibly kit lens geared towards video. Besides, wasn’t this new sensor patent issued like 2 days ago?
@MK: Yes, but they’ve been working on this design at least five years–four years since thay first began patenting this work.
By “revolutionary” & “amazing” they clearly do NOT mean the kind of evolutionary progress that you are describing. They have specifically been talking about the development of one or more “devices” that are taking a long time to perfect.
Would in body lens stabilization still be possible on a camera with foveon sensor? I ask it to the most informed of you!
Canon, Nikon & Fuji also have patents for next geeration sensors. Eventually they will replace Bayer sensors but I doubt the A77 will have one, its more likely to feature a 24 MP Bayer sensor.
It will be interesting to see how the new Foveon sensor in the Sigma SD1 compares to todays APS-C Bayer sensors when the camera is launched shortly.
What if a money tree grows out my butt? Don’t get ridiculous now. 😛
Great. If it’s true then my plans to make order on Sigma sd15 will die :).
Great to say “Old Good Bayer, Goodbye!”
The sigma sd1 will destroy all before it, if it ever comes out and if it ever works.
Agreed that sony won’t play two cards at the same time, we’re looking at some very staged innovation coming out here. Fortunately Kodak are at deaths door and leica are too expensive.
Sony played two major cards in 2010 (NEX & SLT). I expect them to do so once again in 2011.
I don’t see how Kodak being at deaths door is a good thing. A Canon/Sony duopoly on sensors serves no one’s interests.
agreed
aren’t you guy think too much 😀 I got strongly sense that Jun & PMA will turn you guys down by Sony about the A77 Naix7.
That make sens … about the 24mp because is 3x8mp!!!
its a good thing if you’re sony/canon or nikon – pretty bad for everyone else.
i also heard a rumour, that sony will put a micro-wave oven inside the a77, built-in sidewinder missiles, a game console and many more as well…soon to be revealed @ photokina 2025, but i am not too sure about that game console..
just speculating btw..