–
A super trusted sources got some hints that the new Sony CEO speeded up the NEX-FF photocamera project and it will not be announced in early 2014. It will come within 2 months. UPDATE: Availability still to be expected in 2014. This is the day I was waiting for a very long time. I am working right now on the specs and lenses. I kindly invite you to spread the rumor and follow SAR by subscribing the RSS feed (Click here) and Twitter (Click here) stream and the Facebook fan page (Click here). What’s coming soon will be amazing. I promise it 😉
One more thing: Sony will surprise us with many new camera announcements soon 😉
Your rumor worker,
Andrea
287 Responses
I want A mount news!! Can’t wait for it..
Please, please let it be a bit larger than the nex-7, have a superb viewfinder and good ergonomic controls with a somewhat larger grip-hump.
I’d prefer controls like on Fuji, aperture ring, shutter speed dial, exposure compensation dial – no need to turn the camera on to check what your settings are – after some time you will be able to ‘pre-set’ your exposure in various conditions by heart and then just turn on, snap, done.
sadly, that’s never gonna happen since all A-mount / E-mount lenses doesn’t have aperture ring, all bodies doesn’t have shutter markings, etc. Why? Because Sony likes to have their dials customized, no limits over what certain dial perform.
The only camera I have seen with a EV dial are RX100 and RX1 maybe to attract some retrolovers at the cost of loosing one customizable dial.
I guess it’s not about being ‘retro’ rather than having direct access to control every exposure related bit without the need to look at EVF/LCD – it just is more satisfying in a way and makes more sense to me – maybe i’m in minority here 🙂 but I feel more ‘connected’ with the camera (that’s why I enjoy shooting my old M6 – it’s just so simple, no nonsense in the way of capture).
I also feel it’s quite important to have a dedicated EV dial. Maybe I’m in the minority league too. 🙂
I’d be very happy to see the return of aperture rings on lenses. EV does not actually give you such control as the camera gets to choose how it gets the EV change you set, ie aperture, shutter speed, ISO. Real control of those settings independently is needed if you want to be in charge and not the camera.
Also the return of aperture rings on all brands would make it much easier to control other brand lenses. I’d love to be able to fully adapt the Canon 1x-5x macro lens, but Canon’s electronic coding of aperture rather than manual makes this near impossible to more than partially adapt that lens. And Sony is not likely to build such a lens even though Minolta and Zeiss both had macros in that range.
First, you can check EV compensation value or any other settings from the top LCD(if there’s any). But I don’t think NEX series will have it. 2nd, you cannot reset physical controls via 1 or 2 buttons reset configuration. 3rd, physical shutter speed dial constrained to certain number of speeds, unlike unlimited steps in front/back dial config.
@WK – precisely. And that’s all one need on the digital cameras these days: set auto iso to 6400, aperture on the lens, shutter speed dial and exposure compensation dial – you don’t need anything else and all is visible to you without turning the camera on.
Walt, you just use manual mode. Whether the aperture control is on the lens or on the body itself is a complete irrelevance.
Maybe you should invest in the NEX system, what with the lenses stopping down automatically when you adjust aperture.
Completely agree.
I agree, many of those that learned from digital doesn’t have that feel of the aperture ring, it’s way more intuitive that just use a dial. It’s way better to go to Fuji rather than expect Sony to implement such things, Fuji has been the best consumer listener, by far and I’ll jump system if – but more a matter of when – Fuji decides to put full manual control in video mode. I love Fuji’s Kaizen philosophy.
@$3500 for most of us it doesn’t matter what size/shape/controls it has.
:-/
woow
Great news for all, since they will be pressed to release new high end lenses as well.
OK, I will wait with the purchase of RX1R then 🙂 (note to myself – do not spend that cash)
it will be very expensive. the rx1r (with lens) is cheaper.
how’s that possible? I would imagine that Zeiss lens in RX1(R) contributes to more than 40% of the price.
1. EVF
2. FF lenses development
3. new sensor?
4. because it’s interchangeable(larger market)
while I agree with your points, I do not think that it would increase price that much – remove Zeiss from RX1, add EVF and you have about the same starting point. FF lenses development – yes, but I don’t care about that, I would use it with legacy glass (sorry, but haven’t seen good lenses from Sony yet for NEX, that was the reason I chose X-Pro1 instead of NEX7).
let’s wait and see if the price increase will be justified 🙂
And first kid on the block….Leica excluded by stratospheric price
😉
but surely cheaper than Leica M240 😉 are we talking more of D800/5DMK3 price range?
surely above $3000.
well, I will need to wait to see if the price will justified then. Because if it’s going to cost more than RX1R without a lens (and more than D800/5DMK3) and behave like a NEX, then I’d pass and might save up for M240.
Over $3000 for body only or with kit lens?
body. But it’s a hell of a cameras. I hope to get the full specs soon.
thank you @admin – I just hope it will be photographic tool rather than a computer (more in the lines of RX1 than NEX7)
I hope it too. Lenses are certainly of very high quality (and expensive).
If it performs well with my current M lenses then I will buy it in a heartbeat.
Amin, I know it’s a bit off topic, but I’m still hoping for a 50mm RX1: is there any rumor about it? Being that expensive, I need to plan in advance for what I’m saving money. A 50mm would be a perfect all round to me.
no rumor sorry 🙁
If it’s going to be over $3000 it had better have a redesigned operating system. The NEX OS is an ugly-as-hell, amateur photographer friendly, silly, silly joke of an OS.
Not interested then. Very expensive: rather buy genuine Leica M than this stuff that is unlikely to work well with anything wider than 50, although it’s the key point: my Lux 35 mk2 and SE 21 must be flawless as they are on Type 240.
+1. Given the price I would rather buy other mature system.
Why assume that Sony sensor designers will make the same mistake again that they made on the 7 ?
There is no fundamental reason why a FF NEX should not work correctly with wide angle M lenses. If Leitz (or their suppliers) can do it, I am sure Sony can.
well, Leica spent a lot of time trying to nail it with the sensor in M240 – there are interesting articles flying around written by people who one way or another have been involved (or have insider knowledge) in the development of the new M.
works fine on VG900 anyway
The VG900 doesn’t work well with both of them.
The reason the NEX can’t focus the wide-angle Sony lenses is the flange focal distance. Though Sony is smaller at 18mm, and can mount an adaptor, the angle of incidence of the light from Leica lenses requires special placement of micro lenses or a curved sensor. That microlens arrangement wouldn’t then work for E-mount glass.
A solution would be an adaptor with a corrective lens in it. However given the quality of Leica glass you’d have to convince people it wouldn’t degrade the lenses performance too seriously. Given Leica’s sensor are only average, the ability for Sony to ‘correct’ Leica glass to fit its sensor and still produce better than Leica low-light performance seems real. CA etc are another story.
Choice and competition is a good thing irrespective of ones own personal preferences. Also on LCF there are folks that are still waiting on delivery of the M240 6 months after placing their order.
SE 21 is NOT flawless on the new Leica M. Serious purple/cyan/smearing.
Leica M has outdated electronics, an untested sensor, tons of bugs and a very poor design (liveview magnification
of the center only for example). I would pick a FF NEX over any Leica camera to use with my Leica M lenses,
I trust Sony way more for their capabilities to produce a great modern camera.
CV15 as well as the SEM21 and probably a bunch of others. Backside illumination is the answer since it eliminates the deep pixel wells that lead to vingetting and color crosstalk with high-incidence rays. The question is whether Sony has successfully enhanced the fabrication process to fullframe dimensions.
@John Maverick – strange to hear that CV15 doesn’t perform that well. Maybe because of the crop factor but it performs well on my X-Pro1 – I have old L39 mount version not the M version though.
@hexx I believe the screw mount and M version of the CV15 are the same optically. I use one on a NEX 5n and love it to bits. It’s just extra challenging going from crop to fullframe and both the m9 and 240 struggle unfortunately – although not as bad as the NEX7.
@Emacs – Do you have sound prove on that Leica lenses do not work well on the VG900 or are you just another anti-Sony-fanboy??
On Cameradiner and other places they happily use legacy lenses without any issues.
SLR lenses are fine. Wide M lenses which are ideal from a compactness and quality perspective are not.
This entire thread deals with the subject – but see especially the bottom, and the large number of example shots posted for cv15, sem21, cz28, cron35, etc.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1148278/4
Otherwise everyone would be using the VG900.
you don’t expect answer, do you?
OK, the only actual sample pics are from the Voigtlander 35/1.2 which is working fine on the VG900. Where is the sound proof?
Then people are just talking about how difficult it is to get wide angles working on FF. I mean if the issue is similar to that of the NEX-7 then the issue is to cope with in PP and just adjust/add micro lenses. No big deal as far as I can see it. The reasons why everyone don’t have the NEX-VG900 are not necessarily connected with legacy wide angles, but more that people either are going for the pro-grade camcorders (FS700 and up) or using the Canon 5D-II as they may love big rigs for their DSLRs.
I lik Sony but the VG900 is a disaster and has been getting very poor reviews. Sony wasn’t even able to avoid severe vignetting on some of their OWN alpha lenses with the adapter they created. Seems like this will only work with tailor made lenses. The readon I like Nex is the possibilities of using other types of lenses, so unless they do something different from vg900, I am not interested in the least. ..
@spaceman, There are 8 pages to that thread. The CV35/1.2 performs well because it’s the exception in being a telecentic design. The dropbox url has hundreds of full-sized shots to download. The sem21 and cv15 are especially problematic – and the detail smearing due to the thick AA filter necessary to control moire in Video cannot be corrected in post (unlike color shift). It’s silly to speculate when folks who own these lenses on other cameras like the NEX5n/6 have already extensively researched this and it’s common knowledge within the M community.
If it’s that expensive, how well do you think it will compete with all the other cameras on the market?
I’m buying it for sure, if it turns out to be true!
With no lenses, and no IS for alpha lenses, I’m having a huge problem caring. It’ll be interesting to see what sensor they’ll put in it as the A99 sensor is years old to this point, and too long in the tooth to stick into a new product, so there could be a new FF sensor. But, curiousity aside, woof woof, it’s a dog.
I got mixed feeling here… overjoyed but at the same time sad because I won’t be able to afford it.
Exactly the same as me! Sounds like it will be wayyyy too expensive… You would have thought that the price would be somewhat lower than the RX1, considering they would be making some cash on the sales of lenses, but no… if this is the case and the camra is very expensive, I’m definitely keeping my NEX7 until it falls apart LOL 🙂
That one together with my LARGE collection of super lenses! If inbuilt IBIS i will buy it! =)
IBIS plus adaptors would make this a truly universal camera. Without IBIS a mount users are much less likely to buy it.
A little xtra size would be a small price to pay for that feature.
Wait until you see the eye watering price, then you’ll lose all interest in a NEX FF body.
It might cause some waves for what it is (FF mirrorless) but it will cost more than a FF DSLR, so what’s the point? New CEO should have a serious re-think on Sony’s pricing strategy
+1
Leica glass on a normal modern FF body (potentially cheaper than Leica cameras) – that’s quite a reason for existence of such a camera.
+1
What’s the point? Using all Full-frame capable lenses in the world with a updated digital back. People love NEX-7 and NEX-6 while using their vintage lenses on crop sensor. For sure, it will be expensive, but people are buying RX1, and many are going to buy a FF back for vintage lenses if it got the same form factor as NEX-7/6 (NOTE! same form factor is not the same as body size).
because by presumption the FF NEX will be way way smaller and lighter than a FF DSLR
+1!
This would be incredible, but sounds too good to be true.
For me a NEX-7 with a FF sensor is more than sufficient and I wont complain about kick ass AF either.
I do hope it will have a 36Mpix sensor. The fact than I can use my current NEX lenses at 16Mpix and legacy lenses with their intended fl’s at 36Mpix is going to be the BOMB!
Wow. That’s great news. Will it come with G or zeiss primes or a new fast zoom?
I am working on that. But Zeiss is in 😉
This sounds like Sony’s ultimate rangefinder. Proper hand size, thick & heavy metal body, tank tough & 36-42mp. Awesome!
All manufacturers and especially those of luxury goods excel in the so called “value pricing” aka “whatever market will bear”. This makes perfect sense for them. The price has no bearing on manufacturing cost.
Note how camera bodies are announced at a certain price and within two years sell for half of the initial price. During this time the manufacturing costs are likely to be have risen due to general inflation and increase in labour costs.
No it’s called “niche” product. FF will over the next few years move into where higher end APS-C was price wise, that means expect FF to cost around £1000 shortly. When you compare the price of this FF NEX to APS-C most will conclude that APS-C is good enough and ignore this offering.
In a few years we’ll mostly be shooting with bigger sensors, compacts will have larger sensors to combat smarphones and give them “clear space” in IQ, even cheaper compacts will have this. DSLR land will eventually move to FF (APS-C will be around but at lower prices) to give it sustained growth over the next decade. Sony will try to overprice this FF NEX and overprice it’s APS-C and FF A mount bodies next year.
Sony have already lost the battle they have the wrong mindset, they should push for affordable full frame A mount beating rivals on price.
I think the thing that pushes the price up is the manufacturing cost of the sensor. That will go down over the next few years.
An initial high price can be to cover R&D costs. Marketing costs are also high for a new product.
Once the product has sold the number of copies that the marketing folk predicted it would sell, these initial costs have been covered. So the price can come down.
That is assuming the product is a success. If it is a disastrous failure, it might be dumped at firesale prices, but this is not common. The Polaroid cine camera is a classic example.
The only time the will price comes down is when a newer version is releasing soon.
Lets wait for FF NexR.
Freaking nice!!
Now I want Sony to announce an APS-C sensor compact body with fixed 35mm lens preferably with external EVF.
I can’t see any advantage to the user of a fixed 35mm lens over an E-mount 35mm lens.
If what you want is a small lens, then go for a maximum aperture of f/3.5.
Dude, please, stop! There are folks, who want to have an APS-C sensor in a smal, compact (almost pocketable) body with fixed prime lens. I love Nikon Coolpix a and Ricoh GR but cannot get used to the 28mm focal length. Let’s do not continue pointless arguing whether such form factor is necessary or not.
what about Fuji X100S?
A true beauty but on a bit pricey side. I will see after IFA, what else comes from Sony, Canon, etc. side.
ooooooooooooooooo, I can’t wait to see it! probably the best backup solution for the a99 owners like me?
Yeah … I can’t wait !! I was waiting for this great news. NEX camera for me is one of the best technology of the last years. I sold a NEX 5 first version to buy a Reflex CANON 600d but I have damned the day when I buy a Canon Camera. I hope Sony will keep the great UI and Tri-nave system of the NEX 7. Probably the new Nex FF won’t be so affordable but neither Leica is so cheap.
I won’t be able to afford it for now. But I am happy this is coming in. Sony is doing the right thing.
It is also the right price (yes, come on, say something) Leica M is more expensive. Leica M does not include an EVF for which they will charge you an arm and a leg and it is only a rebranded Olympus EVF.
It will have AF, obviously, so why would a Leica system make more sense? Unless you use EVERY SINGLE lens in the M system, it doesn’t make much sense to pay so much for a Leica.
I don’t understand people bashing the price of this. It will be the only other compact FF body that is not a digital Leica so get over it. This is what’s available.
And don’t start with your D600/6D comparison because it’s not what this is all about. For compact you pay the price.
The remaining question I have is… would the 35mm coming with it be a 1.4 or f2 and is it going to be as good as the Sonnar in the RX1?
Sorry I don’t buy it if you can sell a FF DSLR For £1250 odd then it is not unreasonable to expect a body with far fewer moving parts, much simpler construction, much quicker manufacture time to be priced below the DSLR cost wise.
The FF revolution is all about price, just as the Canon 300d broke price points making APS-C DSLR’s genuinely affordable, there is an opportunity for Sony to make huge profits with rapid adoption of affordable full frame (be it A mount or NEX) This is how Canon came to dominate the DSLR market even to this day.
But Sony are like the IMF, they see only the short term picture and short term high margins, not the huge potential down the road, this is why the new CEO is a Muppet, he just doesn’t get it at all. Wrong people in imaging division they need people with talent and ambition.
Again, if you want a compact body and FF sensor, it is either FF NEX, Leica M, RX1.
So, what are you talking about?
Go and buy your DSLR if the smaller body and smaller lenses don’t make sense to you.
Smaller doesn’t have to mean cheaper.
You miss the point (again) the FF revolution is starting already, Sony do not have the prestige to be a premium priced product (far from it)
There is no point releasing a FF very high priced NEX body. If you deny the success of the 300d it is to deny the obvious. This is what Sony should do, they need to bring FF to the market at affordable prices. Price premium for small? Get out of town and learn about the photographic market, Sony will fail again as they just don’t learn the lessons
Ah, you are one of these…”If it says Sony, it ain’t worth it”.
Pointless talking to you then.
“FF Revolution”, “Prestige” Have you been reading the motorcycle diaries and nietzsche together?
@Hendrick – I agree with Peter. Sony has a huge opportunity here. If they nail it with the performance/price ratio then they have a winner. If they will think the way that there’s just Leica who offers FF mirrorless camera so we can price it higher then they will attract only few.
fortunately photography is about the photos, not the prestige of the camera-maker. In any case, prestige is an artifact of the past and does not necessarily reflect on the present day. If Canon and Nikon are anything to go by, their level of innovation has been pretty poor in the past couple of years
+1 @ Hexx @ Peter
If they price it too high, they’re missing the potential market… instead they should price it reasonably to create a solid foundation of users.
@Emir – BINGO!!!
+1!
I guess that Canon 6D and Nikon D600 will be cheaper than Sony FF-NEX. Sony is stupid.
You know what about FF “revolution”? Sony released FF camera for under $2000 4 years ago. It was called A850. You know what happened? Sony lost money.
If Sony price this FF Nex high, even though they will sell less bodies, at least the profit margin would be so high they won’t lose money, like they did with A850.
There goes your nonsensical “revolution” theory.
@Amir Kh: Just take a look at FF MF lenses. They are cheap. You can make nice setup for example with Samyang lenses. There are many used lenses as well. Alpha 850 price … I wouldn’t buy it for amateur use. You know what “reasonable” means? It’s crazy that APS-C is so much cheaper than FF.
hendrick seems like the only one who gets it, really. why on earth would sony compete on price? nikon and canon have already taken that market. sony has to explore new markets.
the high-price is totally justified, as long as it will still be quite lower than Leicas. after all, they will be the first ones in releasing a FF mirrorless.
and if it was that easy, why didnt anybody else do it first?
also, I think mirrorless has a WEAKER lock-in power than DSLRs because of the ease with which you can attach legacy lenses. In other words, setting a higher price for the body is justified. Instead, with DSLRs you can charge more on lenses.
or maybe people here are forgetting that they can get a 6D for $1500 but then have to pay $3000 for a set of lenses that can be obtained for $300 with legacy lenses.
Thanks. Other good points there on the pricing strategy. True, not everyone follows the logic of a business. Everyone just wants artisans that charge like happy meal toys.
+1!
@Hendrick
Sony has a chance to become a king of a new market of FF EVIL cameras and damage their main competition by entering the market with cheap FF mirrorless. Sony has no FF market to protect after the A99 disaster, so they can do it. Nikon and Canon would prefer to protect their DSLR market.
Let’s look at the manufacturing costs.
There APS-C cameras on the market that cost less than $500. Their sensor is most likely no more than 20% of the cost i.e. $100 retail attributed to it. This tells me that FF sensor built in the same technology can be made at retail attributed cost of less than $300 assuming manufacturing yield of 70%.
The electronics and mechanics for the FF camera can be made for not much more than 25% more than the same set for APS-$ i.e. $500.
So the FF camera body can be profitably marketed for approximately $800.
Of course, in addition you may then have also more sophisticated model with more whizbang features for twice the price and another one for thrice the price.
But the base model would be a killer, open completely new market for Sony and force Canikon to either go into denial or respond in a similar fashion either way damaging their existing market position.
So, I agree with others that here is a chance for Sony to come with a breakthrough. But will they do it? I doubt it.
“So the FF camera body can be profitably marketed for approximately $800.”
No global corporation calculates market prices like this.
Not even kids that sell juice or hand-made gifts on the street..lol
Have you ever considered how much the ingredients of each can of soda cost in comparison to the actual market price?
Discuss this with any friend CFO you may have..
Of course we may wish they would market it “for approximately $800” but that’s a whole different story 🙂
I want what you smoke.
That is some seriously powerful stuff, man.
Cheech Marin would be proud.
$800!!
Wow. You really know your economics.
I would like to remind you that when the first music CD players appeared, they were about $5000 each. After a (longer) while you could buy a portable one for $30.-. It still had to have the super precise laser reader and the servo to position it and motor to rotate the CD. However, the quality of the sound was the same.
Modern digital cameras are similar. Electronics gets more integrated and cheaper. Purely mechanical components get replaced by simpler mechanotronics or eliminated altogether.
Yes, economics of consumer electronics are somewhat special especially when large volume is involved.
I suppose it’s escaped your attention that one reason the camera industry is in decline is partly down to the poor economic situation at a global level in recent years.
Releasing a silly high priced NEX FF isn’t going to sell simple as that.
Economic decline= lower prices.
All the makers are in for a rude shock as sales drop across the globe, they’ll have to start making products much cheaper to tempt buyers.
Once again one thing you don’t understand: Yes, high prices mean less cameras sold, but that is offset by high profit margin on each unit sold.
Red is a profitable company, even though they sell 1000 times less cameras than Pentax, which lost money last year. That’s because profit margin on each Red Epic is very high.
Sony is most likely not losing money on RX1, but they are (very likely) losing money of 3N, even though they are selling more 3Ns.
By the way, Sony also lost money on A850 — the first under $2000 FF camera that 4 years ago, much earlier than your “FF revolution”
A high end FF Nex will sell, simply because it will be significantly cheaper than a leica, a lot of people want this camera, even at $3000 its less than half of the cheapest FF leica body, will have AF with native lenses and adapter for wide range of A-Mount lenses as well, not to mention the short flange distance that allows the use of virtually any vintage 35mm lens ever made. Plus built in EVF, and high very good sony sensor as well.
People will buy this for the value (compared to a leica, not a dslr – thats the wrong market), the novelty (first digital AF mirrorless FF interchangeable lens body) etc. There are always early adapters, the Nex system is mature enough at this point that it isn’t that much of a risky buy, even at a high price.
There will be early adopters, they will pay for the high price of this camera, someone has to be the first and it looks like Sony is taking charge. There will be more FF mirrorless bodies and the price will drop in time, expecting the first of its kind camera to be budget friendly is just delusional. Sure I would love it if this camera was cheap, but that is completely unrealistic.
SSS?
EXACTLY the news I wanted!
I will pay whatever, I don’t care.
If it’s that expensive… well, I’m not so sure I could afford that.
This rumor in combination with earlier comments from Sony saying NEX should be lower end/consumer oriented makes no sense. Are we to expect a FF NEX with smile shutter, direct facebook integration and happy colour bodies? Don’t get me wrong, I am one of those who have since long anticipated this FF NEX, but the words we have been fed from Sony lately has made me strongly consider a switch to Fuji.
Your analysis of comments, which are actually rumors, is flawed by the sheer meaning of ‘rumors’ in there.
We can only be sure once the products launch.
I’d love to get the Fujifilm X-E1, but I’ve decided to wait for a newer version, X-E2 and/or X-Pro2. If they can improve the shortcomings I’d gladly buy their gear. 35mm Full Frame would be nice too.
they are rumors.
I am happy with whatever positioning they choose for the NEX FF, as long as it is NEX, it is a photocamera, and it is FF.
and of course as long as it doesnt have the same price as a Leica.
Is there info about a cheaper body follow-up?
I don’t have an info about that. I hope there will be such an option in future.
admin are you sure? last year’s FF NEX turned out to be a videocamera no one wanted,
A ILC that’s body only which is where Sony is headed is a very flawed system. ILC live or die on their entire system. Lenses, Flashes, and a whole raft of other needed accessories stand in the way of Sony. And since they started in DSLR their pattern has been to drop pieces of the Minolta system, which was already way cut down by Minolta’s economic situation and insisting that everything be AF oriented.
So what we need to see is the details of the entire system, a camera body, no matter what it is, is not exciting by itself. And FF does not make it any more exciting without the system to go with it. So where’s the missing rumors on the system integration and development plans for the system?
No IBIS= Not interested. Like others I assume the price is going to be very high and I can’t see this taking off to any serious level. Sony should aim mainstream they are not leica they’re not even Voigtländer (ie affordable but respected)
Now if Fuji did an X series FF it would get a lot more attention (real viewfinders and handling that appeals to photographers) Stay tuned for the roflmao price announcement 😉
+1. Sony needs a little RED dot.
Sony really is focusing all its resources, I see that its audio department’s practically been abandoned in the past year or so.
If the FF NEX has IBIS then it would be worth every penny of the $3000+ asking price. I’m definitely getting one.
Sony isn’t going for the 5d market or even the 6d. For that cash, Pros will always prefer a better body to work with. A 3000$ NEX FF is a niche camera that will mainly interest Leica enthusiasts. That said, it is also inevitable for Sony to release, further along the line, a cheapish ff model to against canonikon. Personally, I cant afford it, bur still am very happy to see the line boost up in hopes of seeing a 5r/6/7 replacements soon. Admin, any word of that?
Just an idea that came into my head (no sure if it is possible from an optical design point of view – it might even be complete nonsense).
Can Sony make an E to A mount adaptor that will add optical steady shot to A mount lenses. I am not sure how OSS lenses work, but I was always under the impression, that a glass element that “moves” is doing the stabalisation. Also not sure if it matters if the stabalizing element is in the last element or if it has to be in the middle of the lens.
It could probably be done with two flat sheets of glass each a couple of mm thick. Tilting such a sheet will shift the image, and using two (moving independently) allows any chromatic aberration to be cancelled out, as in an achromatic doublet.
It would need neat motors and clever control software.
Possibly one might get away with a single sheet of very low dispersion glass.
Phew…. TG I haven’t taken the plunge on the Touits yet… 😉
This could be a very interesting camera, but if I replace one of my cameras with a FF-Nex, it would be more likely to be the NEX-7 than my D600.
What would I be hoping for in a major Nex upgrade:
– Good, fast lenses
– Nex7 like form factor
– Good, fast lenses
– Fast and accurate focusing
– Good, fast lenses
– Wide dynamic range
– Good, fast lenses
– Low noise at high “ISO”
– Good, fast lenses
– No record button
– Good, fast lenses
– Ability to lock all controls except the shutter
– Good, fast lenses
Different lens has different stabilizing design. That’s no way to achieve OIS by single piece of lens. If NEX-FF wants to sell better, IBIS (in body image stabilizer) must be used to help the body use all lenses from A mount to any other manual focus lenses. And it a must for Sony to support such a high price at $3000. Also, a clean output HDMI to RAW is a plus for the videographer. I’ve tried VG900 before and understand what it lacks of in different aspects. Not just the IBIS, improved JPEG engine is also the big problem for this camera.
As someone who always shoots RAW, the JPEG engine is rather secondary for me.
IBIS would be nice, but I am just as happy with OIS when available.
I thought that we all were fully aware of the fact that Nex is designed to have optical stabilization, and Alpha (yeah I know Nex is Alpha but you know what I mean) is designed for/with IBIS…
Do you want good (i e very high resolution) lenses, or fast lenses ? These are opposing requirements, so you have to compromise.
There are sweet spots, such as 50mm f/1.8, which can be made to a high standard with six elements. Go to f/1.4 or 1.2 and you need more elements, which means there is a bigger chance of decentring.
According to all the mirrorless sites there is a huge decline in mirrorless sales and only the DSLR business is holding up. ILC bubble has burst and did a while back the volumes are not there, the interest isn’t there. ILC sales bombed badly this year and continue to deline, it’s over folks too many players not enough reasons and the DSLR remains king.
DSLR shipments the first 5 months: -13%
Mirrorless shipments the first 5 months: -17%
In other words, they are both still trying to recover.
T is for Troll.
T is for truth. ILC sales have bombed big time the party is over and there are too many makers trying to grab a share of a market in decline. The bubble burst it’s all over folks.
Sorry that’s just how it is, let’s get real few bar travel photography not many folks were tempted by the mirror less models. Unless they start to price these products at oh yes prices then they will continue to struggle. ILC users just don’t invest in the system like DSLR users do.
Yawn.
well, that’s can be said about DSLR shooters too. I have few lenses I use on mirrorless and know a lot of ppl with DSLRs and one lens only.
Very exciting news. Congratulations SONY!!
Very exciting and thanks for your great work, Andrea. So, since it is the same mount and sensor-lens distance it is possible that the difference between NEX7 successor and FF NEX could be only the sensor size. I wonder if this alone would justify the 2000$ price difference.
DirkW, we don’t know yet if the coming NEX FF is going to have E-mount or not. If it will, all FF-lenses has to be larger and heavier, which of course would make many unhappy. To make as small FF-lenses as possible, Sony has to introduce another and larger mount. Which of course will make other people unhappy…
We can be sure that the choise here has been one of Sonys major head aches.
.
There is no reason why smaller lenses should need a larger mount. The basic way to make a smaller lens is to give it a smaller maximum aperture – say f/2.8 rather than f/1.4. All the very small 35mm FF film cameras had f/2.8 or 3.5 lenses.
Such lenses make even more sense now that we can use much higher ISO speeds.
The E mount is already exceptionally large.
One of the reasons people want full frame is for narrow depth of field. Prime lenses with a maximum aperture of only 2.8 would pretty well eliminate that advantage.
Just wish someone would make a digital back for the Minolta XD11
No AF No video PASM only
Just an old school street shooter.
😉
now, that would be something 😉
Well, except after our major house fire I dumped several large film camera systems, including my XD11 system which was very complete but had not been used since I went DSLR. I only kept the macro gear that is adaptable to DSLR. I’m not worried, however, that Sony would ever support the XD system again. They are not even supporting a lot of what Minolta AF had.
Wow at first I was totally excited about the great news, but after reading FF-NEX will be way above the RX1 price line, I counted my spare change and surely but sadly I will not be able to stretch my dollars for it. Hopefully the new NEX-7 follow up will be affordable, even if not FF I hope for a worthy successor.
Man, Sony come on…that FF-NEX would sell like hotcakes if the price tag is not considered way out of the ball park!!!
Just think if a million MORE people could afford it they all would look out for accessory lenses and the whole caboodle around the product which will give you much more revenue in the long run than keeping the camera an item for professionals (who will not buy it that much anyway) and the rich folk!
Bring it on…but bring it on affordable…
Since it will be the only full frame mirrorless system camera available (bar Leica) I expect Sony will charge as much as they think they can – at least for the initial model. When someone else comes out with a competing product, at a lower price, they will introduce lower priced versions.
I wouldn’t mind paying more than the RX1 for a full camera (with a 24-70/2.8 lens say), but if it costs more than the RX1 for body only, I can’t imagine anyone sane (or not ultra-wealthy) interested in such a camera. In principle I wouldn’t mind paying a bit more for first gen to offset R&D costs, but in this case you can’t really make this argument… The FF/compact body tech has already been done by the RX1/1R. The E-mount already exists. R&D for putting them together comes out to…?
24-70/2.8 is more a dslr lens. I imagine the fullframe nex to be more of a compact platform for high IQ primes. A camera lightweight enough to be easily carried the entire day, used for street, or at a restaurant without attracting attention.
A 40mm f/2 or a 50mm f/2.8 would be ideal.
If Sony offer a 24mm, a 40 or 50mm, and a 90mm – that will be plenty.
@Joel
24-70/f2.8 lens of high quality would have a retail price of ~$2,500 by itself i.e. as much as the RX1 (with its lens).
It will also weigh about 1kg.
A mirrorless Alpha make more sense than a FF NEX.
My two cents.
NEX7 is Alpha and it’s mirrorless 😉
No IBIS=No Alpha
:-/
I’ve been just anal 😀 – Sony calls NEX7 Sony Alpha NEX
+1!
This are great news!!! Can’t wait to get it on my hands!
This is great and I am sure sigma will come out with some awesome primes that are 25% the cost of a cz with almost equal image quality.
Of course they are going to release another version of this FF NEX a few months later… ;D might as well wait a bit until I buy one.
Hmm, every post requires moderation now before it shows?
I guess not… just my first one in the thread. Odd.
no. Only if:
1) post contains links (to avoid spaming)
2) badwords
3) suspicious IP addresses
bye
Thanks admin.
1) and 2) do not apply, as you have noticed since you authorized both posts that were submitted for moderation.
And since all posts were sumbitted using the same IP and some did get through, point 3) doesn’t seem to apply to me either.
The plot thickens! 😉
No worries, I’ll just s*ck it up and deal with it. 🙂
The Red dot full frame normally costs between 6 to 8 grands.
If this Nex will be between 2 to 3 grands it will be more than fine.
Not mentioning that Kodak/Leica sensors are not as good as Sony’s.
People with this perspective of the big picture are far and few in between, unfortunately.
A lot of people here (namely Emir, Peter and hexx) think that “Sony” should behave like Samsung because their “prestige” doesn’t allow them to price a camera more than $100.
Samsung??? Are you crazy? All we’re saying is that Sony doesn’t have big customer base and this is their ticket there. I just believe that you can’t quite comprehend what we’ve said here and are plugging your ears and signing ‘lalalala can’t hear you lalalalala’
This “ticket” will work, even if it costs $3000 plus lenses.
You just don’t get that part. If you want to buy it, buy it. If you can’t afford it, don’t tell people that the price range is the wrong strategy, or that it won’t work, or that it is ridiculous and what not.
It is what it is. Regardless of what you say it should be.
@Hendrick – if you read my comments, you’d notice that at no point I mentioned if it costs too much or not (we don’t know that yet). What I did say is that if Sony manages to hot the sweet spot between price and performance they might gain considerable market share with this camera.
I don’t have a problem to splash cash on A or B, but the purchase must be worth it.
I’ve done SLR way of shooting and I’ve moved on some time ago. If I wanted to lug around a big SLR I’d be shooting D800 now – as simple as that.
So what is the sweet point then?
@Hendrick – ~£2200 would be reasonable price to ask. Judging by the UK price for RX1R (£2599) and by Admin’s comment regarding the price to be higher we’re looking at ~£2700 which is still good price in my opinion, but this all depends on the build of the camera, features, controls (very important to me) and so on. Leica M Typ 240 costs in the UK £5100, Nikon D800 costs £2000, Canon 5D Mk3 costs £2300. I don’t think that Sony would try to market this as a competition to Nikon D600 or Canon 6D, rather one step higher.
That ticket won’t fly I’m afraid. Nobody is saying samsung prices, we’re just pointing out that at prices like that it’s pure niche. Not even close to mainstream adoption, added to the huge slump in mirrorless it will only get attention as a trophy product not one that will be in a lot of people’s bags.
Consumer electronics the history is quite clear, things get much cheaper over time. Full frame is no different such a silly price makes it quite impossible to take this seriously.
Sony messed up with the A99, now they’re about to mess up again with FF NEX. Ford can’t get Mercedes prices for a reason, they’re not at that level. Sony are def not Leica, they’re dreaming if they think they can get more than their rivals for products.
I’m not really happy with Sony’s UK prices though. Way too much, let me give you an example: Fuji X100S costs $1299 in the US and £999 in the UK – I guess average sales tax in the US is around 10% (correct me if I’m wrong) so UK price pretty much matches US price.
Now let’s look at Sony RX1R, $2799 in the US and £2599 in the UK – where it should be around £1950 if we use the same formula as the one for Fuji X100S. With X100(S), X-Pro1 and X-E1 UK prices were always in line with US prices (tax and exchange rate). All UK prices include VAT (value added tax) unless specified otherwise.
@Hexx
In the late 1990s, before I became a photographer, I was doing economics. The basis of economics is scarcity.
FF NEX is a camera that doesn’t have to look at DSLRs to find it’s price point. If all was about IQ, then it should, but it won’t.
FF NEX only needs to look at Leica M to get it’s bearings. It is mainly that market, and markets that aspire to own a digital Leica, that would be the area to look at.
DSLR owners, or aspiring owners, know the market is flooded with many options. But that is DSLR.
Mirrorless is another market, of which it’s main feature is compact DSLR image quality (APS-C, obviously).
Sony only needs to get its bearings from the people that buy second hand Leica. In that case, £2800-3,000 for a second hand M9. This way, those who want to buy a Leica, but can’t afford a new one, may be interested in the FF NEX instead. Because, with an adapter, they can use their M lenses (if they have any) or the Sony lenses would cost around the same as Zeiss ZM lenses. This is a massive market. Second hand M9’s don’t last long in any single shop I know of that has sold them. This includes Aperture, London Camera Exchange, Mifsuds, Ffordes, Park Cameras, The Classic Camera, R G Leiwis or Richard Caplan. They sell well.
Now, Sony isn’t Leica and when Kyocera was making Contax, they were not Leica either. But when the Contax G2 came out, it was half price of a Leica M7. Every lens was around half price too. That did not make them cheaper than a Voigtlander Bessa, or their lenses, but it made them value for money in comparison to what was on offer in the market.
FF NEX could be the digital Contax G2. Price accordingly because there is nothing in the same weight/volume category with FF sensor out there. This is the reality. The day a third player comes with a FF mirrorless of the same weight/volume category out, that will be the day when real competition begins.
I do agree Sony EU prices in general need serious revising. Unfortunately, they may not be seriously revised.
Hendrick,
Your reasoning makes sense only if you assume that Sony ambition should be to compete with Leica which is a tiny company with no capability to mass manufacture.
I would posit that this is not a market where Sony should be to maximise their strengths. They should be in a mass manufacture market trying to create a new class of devices which they so successfully did with their Walkman a few decades ago.
Their chance is to create a FF mirrorless that is reasonably priced.
The chance comes from the fact that the main players – Canon and Nikon are dragging their feet, as they have their DSLR markets to protect.
The other factor in Sony favor is the fact that Sony can leverage their sensor manufacturing capabilities.
Where Sony is weak is understanding that the new such product must seamlesly integrate with the mobile devices ecosystems and the internet.
One more time. It is not about competition, it is about scarcity.
“Which other camera has the same weight/volume/feature combo that is available today? How many of them? how much do they cost? Does company X makes money?
OK. Here is what we can offer.”
Walkman was a product that had decades in development and production. Can’t compare. Also, Sony invented the walkman, it did not enter a market packed with them. Your $800 FF camera logic you displayed above in such a monumental fashion tells me you understand business like a chicken understands a dolphin.
The logic is simple. There is nothing like a Leica M out today, so Sony has pretty much an open field. They can suck it as much as they want, wherever they want, however they want.
There are millions of people in the world today for whom a few thousand dollars is pocket change.
I’m not one of them, but they are there.
@Hendrick
“FF NEX only needs to look at Leica M to get it’s bearings. It is mainly that market, and markets that aspire to own a digital Leica, that would be the area to look at.”
People buy M because of RF not just because it’s got red dot. I would not buy a Leica without RF – as simple as that. I bought M6 because of RF and because I couldn’t justify spending £3000+ on M9 which was 3 years old tech. These days, I was thinking about new M because of RF – not thinking about it because the sensor doesn’t seem to be performing as well as current crop of FF sensors out there.
@hexx
That’s fine. You represent a market for Leica. Others buy Leica M because it is the smallest FF digital camera they can change lenses with. Others buy it for status.
The reality is, they sell.
So, Sony can totally offer a FF NEX at £2.8k if they want.
They sell because they are Leica, Sony is not Leica.
You constantly make the mistake of thinking that Sony are an aspirational brand, you should be a Sony executive, you’d fit right in.
And you are aware of just how much a matching set of lenses would cost? Buying cheap lenses for a $3000 camera is not how it goes, the reality is that the camera body is the cheap part of the system. Budget on the whole system. And if it’s like Sony you have to buy a new system every few years as they run around trying to figure what to sell.
@Hendrick
If you look at where they are opening most of their boutique Leica shops, Leica’s main market now seems to be wealthy people in China – and other places where people like to buy expenseve European brands as a status symbol to show off their wealth.
I think serious photographers are now only a secondary market for Leica – though they’ll always need some high profile photographers using their cameras to maintain the aura of the brand.
Leica is kind of irrevelant to the argument in that I don’t think Sony wll be competing against Leica in that market for a long time. However the prices Leica charge will always make Sony’s offerings look relitively inexpensive.
When the RX1 was announced everybody complained about the price – but it seems to be selling remarkably well for such a product. Perhaps they can pull off something similar with a full-frame NEX.
@kakkione
Well, OTOH Red doesn’t do line skipping.
The a-99 is funny in that respect: Yes we sacrifised some photo related performance (and heritage) for the sake of video. And then they do line skipping …
Soft videos may well to hide moire.
This is the best news! Can’t wait for a modern camera to put my Leica M lenses on. A great sensor working well with wide lenses is a must. Please, please include a tilting LCD. A new layout of the menu would be great, anything would be better than the existing scroll-o-rama – all the options under one menu…
You got that right!
A new menu will make a difference in the NEX line up. Right now the menu system is horrible. A pain to find stuff sometimes.
If it’s going to cost more than a Mark III then I’d take the Mark III over the NEX FF anyday.
Sorry but I’m not excited the FF Nex doesn’t interest me due to the lack of inbody AS, and I’m predicting a shortage of lenses when the body launches (early 2014?)with it taking 2 to 3 years to get a lens designed, manufactured and on sale, unless Zeiss will be adapting existing ZM lenes to the E mount.
I wish they had concentrated on the A mount mirrorless cameras FF & APS-C for which there is an adequate range of in house and independent lenses.
Just read the Olympus/Sony partnership update post on 43rumors…if they can squeeze in the 5-axis IBIS, perfect camera FOR ME, in theory. Fingers crossed.
more than 3000$ for the Nex body … I laugh my head off… It will definitely be a niche product… we will see how Fuji, Canon & Nikon will give their FF answer …
Eisenvater wrote: “… I laugh my head off…”
Of course it will be a niche product. Do you think that means the NEX FF shouldn’t be produced at all? And Leica, Hasselblad and other ought to shut down too? Well, maybe they woun’t survive anyway, but that is aanother matter entirely.
IF, and that is a MUCH bigger “IF” than you are realizing, obviously, IF any of those three manufacturers EVER would come out with a compact FF mirrorless camera, we already know what the likely answer from Canon and Nikon will be.
Never heard of Nikon Series 1 and Canon EOS M? THESE are the kind of “efforts” that got me (and many others) to laugh my head off! And THAT only after an extremely long and hard thinking… Those two “leading” manufacturers were the second last and last to the mirrorless table.
Have you seen any sign whatsoever that anybody else has even considered something RX1 alike? Despite that Sony already has shown it can be done? The fact is, none of the other players has the half a century of experience of electronics, miniaturization and mass production that Sony has. On the whole, it is far from sure that none of them may be able to do something decent in this field at all. Possibly, possibly Fuji might, in some limited way.
.
we all laughed at the Canon m when we first saw it, but with the new on sensor pdaf and enthusiast oriented controls it might rule the world of mirrorless within a year. full compatibility with Canon dslr glass is a must though!
I mean, just imagine all the Canon shooters, heavily invested in the system, getting the opportunity to invest in a compact digital back fitting their system like a glove.
Well, that’s the dilemma. If Sony priced it too low, Canon and Nikon will feel they need to answer it, and Sony will lose the battle. But what if Sony sets the price a bit high, high enough to makes Canon feels that at that price point, a similar product from them will interfere with their DSLR sales? A price that makes them think “Nah, nobody will buy that overpriced crap”. But some will buy it, apparently. Look at RX-1. And what’s Canon’s answer? Silence.
let’s hope it is using brand new sensor and not recycled from A99/Rx1
A simple and yet profound rumor 🙂
Nicely done. Best rumor from any camera rumor site yet! Bring it on!
Too late for me. If they had come up with this a year earlier, I would have bought it at (almost) any price. But now I’ve got a NEX-7 and an A99 and I am not going to buy yet another camera in the near future.
I still wonder what lenses will be released along with it though. They cannot just ship it with an A-mount adapter like they did with the VG900.
If Sony can sell the RX1‘s hat such a high prices I see no point why they should not try to sell a NEX FF with an even higher price.
RX1 is not a high price for what is. It just labeled as a cyber-shot so it feels a little over priced but look at the IQ and the Zeiss Lens. Now the Leica cameras are over priced. Just look at the new Leica zoom vs the RX100 II. If the RX1R carried the Leica red dot I’m sure everyone will say it’s an inexpensive camera and rave that it will sell tons of it.
I will buy another RX1 if it is a 50mm.
Everyone who buys a Leica is paying for a chunk of the new factory.
And very, very few photographers are buying Leicas, they are a niche product. So Sony is going to make it’s massive sales off the relatively rare Leica lenses? Sony has to make it’s sales off of something else if they are expecting to sell even a modist number
Walt, man. What are you doing all day? Every single post you write is summarized in: “I don’t like Sony. I hate you all. I need to let you all know this.” At least have the common decency of saying something that doesn’t heavily weight on your opinion of the world alone.
Only if it was under 2K….
There is not much profit margin in cameras. I don’t see Sony selling it for under $2,000 or willing to sell it for a lose like they did with the PS3 since they can make the money back with software licenses.
If they sell it for under $2,000 they will mark up the lens which doesn’t make any sense either. We saw how that worked out for the RX1. Selling it at a lower price point then intended and the lens hood is $180, thumb grip for $250, case $250, evf $450 (which is the same spec as the NEX evf at $350).
I can see FF-NEX sell for under $2,000 in 2020. NEX been out for 4 years and the prices haven’t dropped much while the MP and spec goes up. If FF-NEX follows then maybe in 4 years the specs will go up and the price will drop $100 to $200. Maybe by 2020 they will stop APS-C and low end FF-NEX-3 will cost $500.
People that have pulled both apart say that a mirrorless camera has about one-third of the parts of a DSLR – so the manufacturing costs must be substantially lower. If Sony can sell a full frame mirrorless camera at about the same price as a 5D Mk III or D800 they should make a good margin – although I expect the volumes will much lower than either of those cameras.
I expect lenses for this camera are also going to be priced somethng like what Nikon charges for their pro glass such as the 24mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4
The big selling point is going to be size – not price.
Looks like Sony just won the mirrorless market.
This is going to be a very, very tricky line for Sony to walk!
If they make it too capable, or not capable enough, or price it too high, or too cheap, then it could have a profound effect on the sales of the RX1, the NEX7 the A99 and its successor, individually or together!!!
I have to say, if it performs at least as well as the A99 replacement then I know which I’d buy, if only for weight reasons. Of course, if it’s twice the price then I think it’ll be stuck in a niche market.
One thing is a certainty, though. There will be many detractors pointing out where Sony have got it wrong: should have had this, be priced at that, etc.
I will await with interest.
I really hope that’s it!!! I’m gonna buy it as soon as it’s available. Wow
C’mon Sony, give us a digital Zeiss Ikon ZM (even without the RF) !
Very cool, patiently waiting for the new a mount ff cameras!
Is NEX-7 still coming or is it FF NEX only?
GreenLens, I’m sure you meant to say NEX-7 “replacement”. I’m wondering the same thing. I guess they could introduce both a FF and and APS-C at the same time? I would pay more and opt for the FF version. I feel this way because I own a vast array of Alpha lenses and not a single E-Mount lens. I’m assuming that with an adapter, I could use all my Alpha FF glass on this camera.
Exactly – will the ff NEX now come even before the NEX-7 successor? It’s not that I dislike the idea of a full frame NEX, it’s just that I can’t afford jumping the APS-C NEX ship now with an investment of more than €3000 in lenses … And in addition to that, I absolutely love the Zeiss 12 and 24mm lenses!
With the rumored price point for FF NEX, the half-frame NEX subsystem gets very solid ground.
I believe it should be $800 above NEX 7 price point. as with most cameras thats the price gap from jumping to FF.
I don’t understand the news/rumor earlier stating that the A mounts will be for PROs and the E mounts for consumers but Sony makes a $3,000+ FF-NEX. Will the new FF-A mount be $3,700?
I know the FF-NEX will be more expensive than the RX1R by about $500 to $700 for sure because of the speedy development and extra features but how can it be a non-PRO camera at that price?
Anyway, it’s time to sell my Rolex to fund this thing. Please post specs soon.
I don’t see why pro gear can be more expensive than consumer cameras. I am not a pro, if I would be one I would have to think whether the investment in a camera is justified by it’s return; in a nutshell will I sell more/higher priced pictures with the new camera! I doubt anyone would with a mirrorless. But as it is my hobby I care also about convenience and I can tell you that I don’t regret a minute that I sold my DSLR to go mirrorless…You see
There are extra features for PRO cameras that I don’t need or have to pay for such as tethered shooting, dual memory cards, extra knobs for changing setting and then even more extra knobs on a grip so I can hold the camera vertical, big built in PRO mics, and PRO level video. There are 2 features I would like from the PRO camera that I wish I have in the NEX.
1) AUTO ISO in Manual mode (I know it’s manual and flame me). My a99 and RX1 has this. I’m not a pro and can’t guess exposure by looking with my eyes. Sometimes I just want high shutter to get my kids and then maybe an aperture of F4 and I let the camera pick the ISO.
2) Sony a99 has the option to select ISOs in 3rd where NEX can only do 100,200,400,800. Also, RX1 is listed as 100 ISO but I can select ISO 50. How come NEX can’t do that?
There are probably more but I’m not a PRO so I can’t list whats in PRO cameras vs Consumer cameras. One thing I do need but won’t see is faster bust like the PRO cameras and faster buffer recovery. The two listed above should be included in Consumer cameras without an extra charge.
Is a Rolex “professional” ?
Rich enthusiasts spend more on cameras than professionals. Professionals spend on tripods, backgrounds and lighting – or simply rent everything, like film makers.
That’s exactly what I mean! A PRO also needs a body that looks PRO. Not because he likes that but his clients might draw the wrong conclusion when he comes with a compact mirrorless body.
I on the other hand don’t need to impress anybody, actually I like to be unseen with a small body….
Rolex is not professional and either am I. I don’t have a lot of discretionary expense to buy everything released. It is a hobby so I only have a NEX-5R, NEX-6, RX1, and an a99. I use them to shoot my family. Mostly my kids. If you are wondering why I have these cameras.
1) NEX-5R smaller than a NEX-6. Got this one first. I use it with the 16-50 lens and put it in a coat pocket during the winter/spring. I take it to parties.
2) NEX-6 because my wife liked the 5R so much I had to buy another NEX. Didn’t want a 5 because I have one already so got the 6 for the pancake lens and built in flash.
3) RX1 because I just wanted one so badly (camera of the year). Expensive toy. BEST IQ and compactness.
4) Sony a99 because all the cameras I have above has slow a$$ auto focus. Only has 1 lens the 24-70 f2.8 Zeiss. I only take this camera to the beach and the park where I know my kids will be running. Will not spend anymore money on the a99 such as lenses and flash. Will most likely sell it at a huge lost to fund 1 1/2 FF-NEX lens. I think good Zeiss will be $2,000 per lense.
I want a FF-NEX but do you think my wife will let me buy one plus lenses? Rolex is the only thing I can let go and not miss it. I have already priced it and dealers will give me $3,500 for it. I can’t sell my car and ipad don’t fetch much. PCs and TVs are junk in the used market.
img ! “only”!?
omg ! “only”!?
My long comment got deleted by Mods so I will keep it short.
Rolex is the only thing I can sell and not miss. Dealer already offered me $3,500 and it’s probably enough for the FF-NEX. Call it a trade.
I am not interesting in FF NEX. And I am not interesting in APS-C NEX either.
The reason – the existing NEX autofocus does not up to the required for active shooting (for family photo). Thus I have now to use A57 now. And NEX – is passed to my wife. And that’s it.
Only if and when NEX or FF NEX will get same or better autofocus quality, like A57, they might be considered. Current NEX autofocus tendency to focus not on the subject but to the contrast background is completely no-go with these cameras.
And the clamed 3000+ price tag for the camera which can’t autofocus normally? Еhey must be kidding.
Yes and together with the body I want small zeiss primes, something like 21mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm all f/2 or faster and I am happy to spend some serious money!
Well the question is: Will it be really an E-mount camera? If yes, we could all use our existing legacy lenses with E-mount adapters on an upcoming FF NEX.
Just like the FF NEX video camera that already exists.
Keep in mind that some alpha lenses on vg900 vignette heavily..
Keep in mind that some alpha lenses on vg900 vignette heavily..
Is it clear that a zeiss design will never have OSS? I want a FF E-mount 35/1.4 or 1.8 (preferably zeiss, but I would go for the plain sony if zeiss is without stabilization). Also I would love to see a FF e-mount 70-200/2.8 OSS.
OSS affects corner sharpness, that would probably not go well with Zeiss engineers
Andrea, let me say “Thanks!” for the excellent work you do here. 🙂
I will be ready to buy my first DSLR by the end of September. Since I am starting out I have the option of going APS-C or 35mm Full Frame (my preference).
After much reading, etc., I’ve so far decided on the Canon EOS 6D. I was looking at the Nikon D600 too, but I’ve read horror stories about Nikon’s customer service. Especially with the dust/oil issue that a lot of people are experiencing with the D600.
I’d really like to get a SONY 35mm Full Frame mirror-less camera, and I am hoping that news of the A-mount mirror-less cameras will be detailed enough for me to wait a bit longer for a SONY camera. It’s going to have to be much better for me to go with SONY. I was looking at the A99, but it is $700 too expensive for my liking. My price range for a body is $1800-$2000 – no more. I would go a bit higher, but SONY would have to “wow” me enough with the two rumored 35mm FF cameras to do so.
if I went dslr today, I would go Canon. I like Sony for cross compatibility between different lines (video, dslr, mirrorless) but Canon are catching up. I think the Canon m will be great soon. but I would start off with a used 5dmkII, saving up for a Canon m as second house whenever they mature.
o wrote: “… but Canon are catching up. I think the Canon m will be great soon.”
Canon is catching up? With EOS M, you mean??? I think it is pretty clear that Canon is falling behind, basically behind every one else out there in the “mirrorless” market!
Canon was last of all to the table, and with a very mediocre “me too” product, mostly aimed for P&S people. Canon is unique in the mirrorless market, yes, for these and for a number of other reasons. E.g. being the only one not introducing as much as ONE SINGLE new function or feature… Someone must have scared the hell out of Canon regarding the mirrorless market!
.
I could be wrong, but the new Canon on sensor pdaf is promising and they do know how to make enthusiast oriented bodies. sooner or later they will merge those things into an m body. there are already a wide selection of small, fast primes to go with it. then again, it all depends on compatibility with the dslr lenses, but they have already shown they can do it, so why wouldn’t they. well well we’ll have to wait and see.
I guess it’s a cool rumor, but….
There’s always a but.
NEX needs a new menu system. Their UX designers are horrible. I’d rather they upgrade the menu system than anything.
To be honest I think Sony has too many markets they’re trying to compete in that results in their own products conflicting with one another. The RX1 is a good example. It’s a pro compact camera that’s full frame. The NEX/A mount systems were competing with that. The NEX FF will be competing with the next A mount systems and RX1R. Doesn’t make any sense to me.
They need to focus on one line of product….mirrorless. X out compact, x out SLR like cameras. I know that sounds horrible to all A mount camera owners. Who know’s maybe they have a hybrid A/E NEX FF camera coming.
Oh great. A camera that not a single lens exists for. That makes perfect sense.
Please don’t tell me about M lenses. Sony doesn’t make bodies for people to buy old lenses off eBay and use them.
I really really don’t see this being at all successful. Eye-watering price, virtually zero lens support (assuming they will at least announce 1 or 2 with the camera so they can at least show marketing shots of the camera with a lens attached).
Really, how do they expect this to sell? Honestly. More expensive than the a99 that has vast lens support, and by all reports an excellent camera. From everything available it never gained much traction sales wise, so lets make less capable, more expensive camera for which no lenses even exist???? That’ just isn’t computing for me. It just seems sony is wanting nothing more than to make things that nobody else makes.
Zeiss has the CP line of cinema lenses that have E-mounts and full frame coverage. So lenses exist. Lenses that most people are going to be able to afford to buy, not yet. I think the CP primes run about $15,000 and the zooms $20,000.
Not to mention the size.
With the FF nex – imagine this: new speedbooster + medium format lenses = medium format dof in tiny cheapish body.
let’s hope that others will release FF mirrorless bodies too, would be interesting to have more options – true competition 😉
Though I certainly cannot afford such a price, I totally understand it. It takes time and investment for innovation and it’s never cheap when it first comes. Just how many paychecks did the Super Kodak Six-20 with the first included light meter cost? How about the Contax D when it came out with the first pentaprism?
Digital photography is finally getting truly exciting. With a NEX FF, we’re finally beginning to see the enormous potential of digital photography starting to shine through the persistent paradigms of the film era as bodies become more compact and ergonomic, resolution and dynamic range become on par with the finest of films (and without the added cost), and with features that we’d not have dreamed of 20 years ago like touchscreen, wifi, on-board image analysis and processing, etc.
We are only now approaching a golden age of digital photography. Thank you Sony for going in the right direction.
Andrea… Can you please tell me why my post, on the 35mm FF A-mount cameras to come, was deleted? Also, why is every comment of mine awaiting moderation? My e-mail address is legitimate – e-mail me and I will send you a reply to verify it.
That comment made it through. LOL
COME ON SONY DO IT NOW FOR MIRRORLLES FULL FRAME 24 MEGAPIXEL, DONT WESTING TIMES SONY!
I wanted to point out 2 things:
first, to all those who say the FF NEX will be too expensive, I want to remind that with an expense of $1200, I will use these lenses at their native focal length/aperture:
– 24 f/2
– 35 f/1.2
– 40 f/1.8
– 57 f/1.2 and 57 f/1.4
– others not worth mentioning.
Now try to do the same with a FF DSLR and comparable lenses. Either there is no comparable lens, or they are more than $1000 each, on average.
And with the legacy lenses there is no lock-in to sony (i.e. Samsung could release a better FF mirrorless and I could buy that in the future, using the same lenses)
The second point is: a lot of people here seem to think the FF NEX is a niche product, but I BET that this website has much MUCH higher activity whenever there is a post about a NEX FF.
so perhaps not everybody will be able to afford it at launch, but for sure there will be huge interest.
maybe few of the commenters remember the reactions to the unexpected launch of the RX1.
What mount are those lenses? Keep in mind that the VG900 with the la-ea3 adapter that Sony developed for it, still has severe vignetting on some Sony lenses.
NEX are always compact, if they go FF it must came with new zeiss prime and should be pocketable, and we can accept they price are far for most of us if it can deliver the iq around RX1 with 2 or 3 native lens came along.
lightwieght and compact plus IQ would be the key if they tag it over $3000+
but if it come less than 6D price it will be succesfull camera of the year 2013 even with bulky native lenses. but then again it would killer for NEX7 successor.
Is this camera the one rumored to have a dual a/e mount approach or would that be an entirely different camera down the road? Seems it’d make sense at least initially, so that you could quickly pick up some A mount FF glass until more is developed for the smaller NEX body.
It’s easy to get excited over such a new and innovative product no matter the cost, but I have to remind myself if I actually need to go FF. I do appreciate the crop factor in focal length that gives my normal lenses a little boost in field of view, and as far as night photography goes here in NY, the APSC sensor seems to give me just what I need as far as low light capabilities goes. Still, having that shallower depth of field would be handy when wanting to compose more artistic shots and nice portraits…
shooting wide angle with shallow dof is where ff really make a difference I think.
Announced in 2 months… that’s Photokina 2013 😀
there is no photokina this year…
3000? Sony needs to be realistic. Someone else will make a full frame mirrorless at some point, and at a cheaper price. 3K should come with a 35/2(of 50/1.4) Zeiss prime.
+1, maybe $3300 for the combo or something like that.
But until that someone comes along, Sony can price it however they like it. That’s called monopoly. Not really, because there’s Leica. They are actually undercutting Leica – by selling better product at a lower price!
Look at the corners! We had discussed about the corners of the sensor before, well it does proof vignetting on VG900, despite some so call expert explaining it will not.
Dude, you do realize that the rear element of the lenses goes inside the lens mount of the body?
i hope sony will learn 2 glue rubber grip on next ones… my 7th crappy grip was a bit disappointing for a e-mount flagman
I had it redone too
why still expected in 2013 why bother announcing it in september then wtf
…well one should never miss an opportunity to express a wish (or several if desired), so here goes my wish list for a FF Nex in order of priority:
1. FF (should go without saying, but then again…)
2. E-Mount (or short flange, or modular mount, or whatever else allows the use of any FF lens ever made. An only A-Mount camera would be disappointing).
3. Global shutter (getting rid of the mirror box was a good start to move camera technology into the 21st century so let’s get rid of the mechanical shutter as well. It would not only eliminate the shutter noise but also the rolling shutter effect on videos, plus it already exists in Sony’s high end video cameras).
4. In camera stabilization (most of the better glass currently available for Sony is without in lens stabilization and I doubt that that is going to change. I don’t know whether this is a consequence of getting older or image sensors getting better, but the amount of blurry pictures due to camera shake I get from my Nex7 is increasing so I’d give this sort of feature a relatively high priority).
5. Build in electric viewfinder (yes one could go with an add on but I find the Nex7 / Nex6 solution really quite elegant and efficient for very little extra bulk)
6. 4K video at 60p (it is possible, they have done it. The choice of not putting it in there is a marketing choice so I wouldn’t know anything about it)
7. Sensor aspect ratio: Square!!! (yes nobody is going to go for it, but without dreams we’d still be living in caves, and agreed we might be better of, but I’d be thrilled and ready to spend Leica M money for a square digital sensor with a quick and clever user interface to select aspect ratio and horizontal or vertical orientation without having to change the orientation of the camera itself).
8. Resolution: 24Mp is plenty, more than that is more than plenty, either way would be fine.
9. Weather sealed (would help on occasion)
i agree with you on most of those accounts! square format, while not a must, would be a great plus! its a pure software function rather than hardware and can be be made as a post process crop code. those people who say “why not just photoshop it later”. well, i enjoy photography! not photoshop! and i would rather it be simple and i compose with a square to start off with rather than adjusting where the square goes in photoshop later
what would also be awesome would be a 2:1 or wider aspect ratio, i really love my hassleblad xpan and wish there was a digital version which i can adapt any lenses onto, especially fast lenses 😀
built in evf and IBIS would be really good, hopefully at the high price point they would include it but i doubt it for IBIS since they want to save it for the FF alphas
another thing i might add may be a multiple exposures feature, its a bit gimmicky but still, its nice to have to make creative shots. again its a pure software feature
Is a $10,000 price tag in your wish list?
…well no, but if Sony were to produce a camera that answers to all the items on my wish list, I wouldn’t be the only one taking a loan at my bank to buy it the moment it hits the market.
As long as you are changing the sensor shape why not just make it round to match the lens?
That way either your vertical or horizontal orientations would be bigger along their long axis than your square!
Wish for the sky!
…do I detect some cynicism?
That might actually be a good idea from an engineering view snd firmware could offer cropping options.
I do not however think consumers would accept it.
4K is 8 MP per frame. There is no way you can do 60 frames per second at 8 MP on SD card. The data rate is too high. Either it is not possible at all, or the compression would be so tight that the quality of that 4K would be worse than 1080p.
…who says it has to be SD cards?
That said I don’t see why that wouldn’t be possible. Canon’s 1D C records 4K at 4:2:2 on CF cards (which admittedly are currently about 50% faster than SDXC cards), JVC did a clever thing of recording on four different SD cards simultaneously and I am sure there are many more ways of recording 4K on standard memory cards without sacrificing quality to the point of making it pointless. That is what engineers are for, they figure these things out. I am merely what you might call a user and I simply tried to draw a picture of what i’d like to use.
Or just go with the time and use XQD-cards…
Sony has one with 164 mb/s write speed… in tests it achieves 120 mb/s… I guess that would do?
That XQD is from last year… the technology was completely new then. I would guess they could get more than 200 mb/s now if they want to…
As I said, Canon 1DC doesn’t do 60p in 4K
@Amir Kh: That could be because Canon is mile-wide behind Sony and Nikon in regard to sensor-tech…
First, Canon 1Dc does NOT do 60p. It is not possible to do 60p with 4K on SD card unless te compression is really crappy.
Also, the heat generated with such small body with such data rate would be enormous.
I simply do not believe there is technology right now to do such high resolution at 60 frames per second in such a small body.
1Dc is s huge body (far more space to absorb heat), but even 1Dc cannot do 60p at 4K
…so if I understand you correctly the Canon 1D C doesn’t do 4K at 60p.
Good to know!
Look at the image of the sensor and e-mount, how would you fit more sensor to get it to square. The corners of the rectangle don’t even fit.
It would fit in, but only with vignetting. The clue is, that you won’t use the whole image later but only the part of it you need.
Imagine you have a huge square sensor behind your mount and all pictures you produce have a black circle around them. You crop the area you need out of it and don’t have to bother for framing horizontal or vertical anymore.
…unless of course you use an adapted PC shift lens like an old Zuiko Shift 24mm. The image circle of those lenses would be large enough to cover a 36mm x 36mm sensor.
But besides those relatively rare lenses most 35mm lenses would vignette on a 36mm x 36mm sized sensor and it would require a great deal of determination and conviction from whoever pushes for such a thing to convince the accountants and marketing people within the company. Yes the idea would be to crop the image to the format desired but it would come at the expense of a fair amount of wasted sensor real estate and an accountant might not go for such a loss. An alternative would be to go with a 30mm x 30mm sensor instead, as it would still be fully covered by the 43mm image circle of any 35mm lens. The trade off is that there is some degree of crop factor when used in the 3×2 aspect ratio of the classic “Full Frame”. In this case it would be a 1.2 crop factor meaning that for instance a 24mm lens would turn into a 29mm lens. If I had to choose a compromise between a slight crop factor and a square sensor I would go with a square sensor, but I can imagine that many would be disappointed, so I can only hope the accountants at Sony have a sense of adventure and some imagination and can overlook the loss of sensor real estate.
It will be an engineering achievement to shoehorn in the 36x24mm sensor in the nex, no way 36x36mm will fit. Maybe in the a-mount camera it would be possible but there is no getting that genie in the nex bottle.
I am a fan of the square sensor but think nex is the wrong market for that.
I would prefer to see it in a mount.
Sony has an extensive line of camcorders, what’s the product differentiation between camcorders and NEXs if NEX got all the video goodies?
…handling and price I guess.
A FF Nex with high end video abilities would interest a very specific market. From all I understand it might be this high end market Sony seems to be interested in, particularly since the smart phones are slowly eating up all the parts of the market that aren’t “high end”. Even news reporters have started to use smart phones for videos and stills, wherever it seemed technically possible. For the moment sports and very low light situations are still a hallmark of pro-DSLR’s but whenever long focal lengths, fast shutter speeds, narrow DOF, and high iso performance are not a priority the smart phone is increasingly preferred for the obvious lack of bulk and the added convenience of integrated editing abilities and instant sharing of images and videos over the internet.
Yes there is Canon and Nikon and they won’t go away, but why should they? A high end FF Nex really would be for lovers of photography, for nerdy melancholics if you will, for people who want the very best technology can achieve only to stick a 1950’s russian rangefinder lens on it, because of its dreamy (aka blurry) quality. It doesn’t make sense, but it still is a highly lucrative market. The Hasselblad Lunar clearly missed the target since these “photo melancholics” aren’t idiots they are discerning customers and won’t pay for luxury hype alone.
The RX-1 however clearly hit the target, so I am hopeful that at least some of my wishes will be fulfilled.
Maybe they even stick an interchangeable mount on it with full integration of lenses from Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Minolta, Leica, Arri, Angenieux, Zeiss, etc…and why shouldn’t they?
So, what will happen to current users who jumped into the ASP-C NEX format buying bodies, lenses, adapters, etc? Will the current NEX format be discontinued or the new FF lenses will work on ASP-C sensors? I’m just wondering if I’m wasting my moneys with Sony.
FF lenses will work on APS-C e-mount, APS-C lenses will work in crop mode on FF e-mount… just like it already does on tue VG-900
Andrea: two questions…
I’ve seen commentators claim current e-mount glass would not work on this FF camera without cropping the image. Is that certain? If the mount itself had been built to contain FF, perhaps the image circle of the NEX glass also was built to accommodate that upgrade?
Is IBIS possible? From what little I know ó doesn’t look to be compatible with FF e-mount.
Yep it has to be. Sony would be insane if it produces FF-capable e-mount lenses and sell them at APS-C prices. Though an APS-C lens in crop mode on a FF sensor should deliver the same image and quality like on an APS-C sensor.
To IBIS: What I have heard, mechanical IBIS, like panning and rotating and so on is not possible due to the limited space in? the mount. It might be true for FF but I don’t think it is for APS-C… I dream from a 5-axis Olympus stabilisation in the NEX 7R…
It might also be possible to use the FF sensor in crop mode to use the free sensor area beside the image area as “compensation” for shake. Sony is actually using that technology for their camcorders!
Waiting, waiting, witing!
The body working with manual lenses (preferably including rangefinder ones) is a wish too.
Zeiss? Fast 35mm is desired, f/1.2 or f/1.4.
Am not interested in f/2.
2nd expected focal – would be 90mm, this one may be f/2.
Other focals can be delivered later (50mm and ultra wide).
Longer focals (for FF) are not a priority at all, as for that purpose smaller sensors deliver.
I would not bother with f/1.2 on FF… The DOF is so razor thin that you barely can use it… I am currently using a Canon FDn 50 f/1.4 with Lens Turbo on my NEX 6… I am barely using f/1.4 because it won’t allow me a whole face to be in focus!
Dont want a whole face in focus just the fishes eye or the nudibranchs antennae…
It’d be big.
Since at least the last 9 months… Always the same news… Wait for sony…
The market doesn’t wait for Sony and Sony whatever the new technology is not going to move the market, even with new tech.
Look a their lenses and there prices! Too much and as always too late.
Lastly they do not build Camera but too sophisticated gadget with a tone of info over the screen so you can’t see anything 😉
I had some Sony’s cameras, but I am glad I sold them.
Comparing the camera to a Leica M9 is complete nonsense. That’s an overpriced product with a quite different (vintage…) concept, made for rich people who need a status symbol.
The real competitors for a Nex-9 are Nikon D800 and Canon 5D MkIII. And the price for a mirrorless camera should be WAY below the price of a DSLR…
Even more important would be a much cheaper FF-NEX-8 as a competitor for the Nikon D600.
The first company who dares to place FF mirrorless cameras in that price range will settle the race. (Nex9 ~ $2000, Nex-8 ~ $1500…)
I am glad Sony is bringing out the full frame. But now I want a Medium Format NEX FFS!
Two disagreements with Bob’s wish list:
1. Rolling shutter effect comes from having a global, electronic shutter; the highest-end, $100,000+ digital cinema cameras(Sony F65, Arri Alexa Studio) had to ADD a mechanical shutter in order to totally eliminate the rolling effect.
2. Square format = insane. The 1.5:1 aspect ratio is equally serviceable for square, 4×5, AND panoramic format shots as it lies in-between the two extremes.