Image on top: The OLED electronic viewfinder from Sony
Good Morning dear SAR readers!
Let’s start the new week with a smaller info I found at Dyxum (Click here). I am pretty sure Sony has no plan yet to make any new DSLR camera with optical viewfinder. But a Sony source(?) shared some details about the internal Sony discussion about the OVF and EVF theme. The source said “hat right now there is a significant division of opinion within Sony. The higher ranks want to leave OVF behind and press on with EVF only. But the staff who are closer to that actual market are strongly objecting to complete abandonment. And I was told that in the coming months Sony will release two top tier, Nine level cameras, one with an OVF and the other with an EVF.”
As I said, my sources told me the next A99 is 100% an SLT camera. And that there is no plan yet to release a sister model with optical viewfinder So take the rumor with a grain of salt. What’s interesting is that there is a debate ongoing here and on many other forums about Sony’s decision to push the SLT technology. Something else. I had the chance to quickly compare the [shoplink 8454]NEX-7 EVF with the Fuji X PRO 1 hybrid viewfinder. I have to say that on first look the NEX-7 EVF is far more advanced and usable. As you know I am not saying this because I am a fanboy. At first I liked the idea of the hybrid viewfinder and it ma can be improved further by Fuji. But for now the NEX-7 kicks the ass with the OLED technology. Another story is the amazing Fuji sensor. I wish Sony could bring that kind of improvement in future cameras. Let’s get rid of that Anti aliasing filter!
Price and specs comparison:
NEX-7 at [shoplist 8454].
Fuji X PRO 1 at Amazon (Click here).
242 Responses
It’s going to get very hot in here!
LOL
I’ll go make some popcorn
😉
With such a continued debate existing, can Sony really afford to go EVF only for higher end models? Only time will tell 😉
Both EVF and OVF have their pros and cons.
I don’t care EVF or OVF I just want to hear some official news from Sony regarding NEW FF body!!
Me too… although EVF in a A900 should be better (refresh rate, size) than the one in the A77
+100
I personaly won’t ever use a camera without an EVF. It’s advantages greatly outweighs the disadvantages. OVF is dead for me.
+1
most people against EVF haven’t experienced it yet (and by “experience” I don’t mean picking one up at a camera store and playing with it for a few minutes but actually spending time with it and “experiencing” the advantages it has to offer).
+1 too. all complains about dynamic range of EVF is BS because there is live histogram option right in front of your eye! I always use live histogram and never make mistake about exposure compensation ever again compared to when I use A850. This greatly reduces mistake. Not to mention EVF makes my night photography much much easier!
+1
Someone that actually knows how to use the tools provided by the EVF.
Cheers
Must say that the Fuji looks amazing. I’m not going to buy the Nex7, since I think that Sony has to respond to that pretty fast. Any rumors about a Nex7 upgrade ?? (got the Nex5 just before the Nex5n was announced, that is not going to happen again)
But just bring out the cheap D800 and D4 clones and we will all be happy
It should be no surprise that there are internal debates within Sony. I’d be shocked if there weren’t!
However I would be surprised if there was a clear split between the “higher ranks” and “staff who are closer to that actual market”. That is simplistic nonsense put out by a OVF fan-boy with the aim of keeping the debate going.
In politics it is a common tactic to release leaks suggesting divisions within a party on a controversial subject in the hope of spreading FUD. This sounds like such an attempt.
Does this “rumour” come from a similar source to the A600 rumour by any chance…? 😉
This division in the ranks rumour smells of BS…
OVF all the way.
OVF for stills photography
EVF for videography.
Sony bring out newer upgrade a900 with OVF without video mode. – a real photographer camera.
a99 with video mode uses EVF.
It’s a win win situation and everybody is happy.
I am NOT into video at all, but an a900 replacement w/o video would be a marketing mistake (OVF or not)
…and if people don’t want video, don’t press the video button. Cover it with tape if they are really offended by it…
Until CMOS sensors have fast enough scan rates to not show ‘rolling shutter effect’ on 24, 25, and 30 fps, AND with the addition of uncompressed SDI/HSDI output, video on a high caliber photography equipment is pointless. A high caliber tool, should provide high caliber results.
I know that sounds snobish, but think about it. Any video camera that cost more than the GH1/GH2 but not provide any better video output is not a desirable camera for ‘individual-affordable’ video production.
Tell that to all those 5dMKII users. The season finale of HOUSE was shot entirely on the 5dMkII.
Yeah but they clearly aren’t pros. 😉
because of one series? when there are hundreds of movies shot by sony cam?
Yes they did use 5DMkII, and they’re also a prime time TV show with budget and sponsor connections to match. I’m talking about the entry level single person video production market. Hobbyist, struggling film maker, whatever. They want quality HD for the lowest price. And the GH1/GH2 is hard to beat for what it offers through HDMI.
For the money, instead of a 5D, i would invest on a 3ccd video camera with HD-SDI output.
Food for thought:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?169323-HPX170-with-adapter-vs.-Canon-5D-mkII
If you can’t do same things with EVF and can with OVF and it is not something requiring ultra-fast reaction and fast motion tracking, then problem is in you, not in the viewfinder.
Anyway you haven’t even seen A99 EVF yet.
And EVF on A77 allows to have a fullframe-sized viewfinder on crop body, plus much faster manual focusing.
Yes OVF for studio/flash high (36) MP, EVF low (18-24)MP for journalists (on the street). An excellent combo, I buy both!
I do quite a bit of video and honestly, slt doesn’t offer an advantage for me, in the more cinematic or advertising type of video AF is not desirable as you want to put your in-focus area exactly where you want it to be and not where the af point is that you end up manually focusing with a followfocus. For Broadcast and Broadcast like applications it’s an other story, but then again wanting to do the same as a B4 system with a dslr would be complete nonsense. (Just take a look at the ergonomics of a eng camera)
Erm this is an EVF vs OVF discussion not an SLT vs SLR discussion. An EVF IS useful for all types of video production, an OVF is not useful at all (in this style of camera).
Well i don’t think you can compare a Dslr EVF to that of an ENG or Cine-Style Camera of any kind. Viewfinders in video cameras are actually small screens (still a lot bigger then Sony’s dslr EVF’s) with an optical system in front of them, and unlike DSLR EVF’s they aren’t a 100% fixed.
The ergonomics of a DSLR are so different from that of an ENG Camera that i honestly can’t imagine any way one would like to use the built in EVF over the rear Display for Video. If you do film-like video you’re camera is either sitting on a tripod, dolly, camracrane or steadycam. On such a setup the evf as placed on a SLT makes as little sense as the OVF of a traditional SLR.
Compared to eng it makes even less sense, eng cameras sit on you’re shoulder so that you can capture steady images while the HDVF is mounted in a way that you can comfortably use it carrying the camera around. Eng Cameras also have Motorzoom lenses that are easy to operate while looking true the viewfinder the same can’t be said for DSLR’s that at the same time have a far smaller DOF making focusing more demanding then on a B4 system.
+1
Where is the problem to release 2 almost identical cams, one with EVF and one with OVF and let the customer choose in what direction to go??? Look at the car market: In Europa you can buy a BMW or Mercedes-Benz with either a diesel or a gasoline engine, in America I guess people prefer gasoline, in other parts of the world maybe diesel is the only runner (because of fuel prices, taxes or just habit). But I am pretty sure that no car constructor having both engines would drop one line and abandon a bunch of customers to the competitors like Sony actually does !!!!!
They are far from “nearly identical”. In an OVF, you would need to engineer in the space for the flipping mirror assembly, re-arrange the PDAF sensors to be at the bottom of the mirror box, and design and include the whole pantamirror/prism box, thus requiring a redesign of the top portion of the camera, and the associated optics. It is, in all terms, a completely different camera design.
Your analogy to a car constructor is flawed and just plain wrong.
Applauds for blabla. I think is’t a very good analogy.
Diesel engine is a totally different thing then gasoline one. And it requires quite a lot engineering to offer two choices for customer. But still majority of the car is the same. Same with cameras: sensor part, HW chips, Majority of SW, controls, connectors, main display etc… are common for OVF and EVF.
And I easily imagine if Mercedes, for example, say “We are going for Diesels only – it’s more technologically advanced”, quite a lot of customers say “OK, no problem, we go for Audi or BMW”.
Exactly what now is happening with Sony.
@Carnicero: I understand the technical differences between SLT and DSLT, but I meant the fact that Sony could easily offer an upgrade to A580 and A900 with same resolution advantages of recent/future SLTs ( 24MP, 36MP, Bionz, AF modul ) Alter all they don’t have to reinvent the wheel, and Nikon just offers it with the 800D… Please consider that a lot of photographers just don’t want Video or EVF (it does not help to glorify the few advantages of them in DSLR, not everything new that can be invented make sense to use and why changing a winning team ?)
The A900 is a good camera, if you like the old OVF, go buy that.
If you like newer technology, like EVF, then buy Sony.
If you want a Newer camera that has old technology, then go Canon & Nikon.
Thats not true as somebody really into Industrial design I have to say that this is just an new design challenge. If you go for a modular design all you would have to change is one big module in the center of the camera, the rest of the production and assembly could be nearly similar.
…Except that there’s nothing wrong with EVF for still photography, and if there’s no video, everyone will complain “how can you release a 2012 DSLR without video” “I will go for Nikon/Canon instead, at least they have video!” etc etc.
No one mentions anything about Sony currently packing video features into the A57/65/77/Nex5n/Nex7 far superior than anything Canon or Nikon has in terms of frame rate and AF.
Because you can’t mention positives here that’s why! 😀
+1 LOL!
The funniest part is that even those professional photographers managing to get one or too pretty decent shoots with their dslr’s mostly have no idea of video storytelling and what so ever…
Actually, the difference between OVF and EVF is not just in the VF and the translucent mirror.
The SLT cams have the AF modules in the top, where the prism/pentamirror would be. The SLR cams have them in the bottom.
The SLTs meter off the main sensor, the SLRs need another metering sensor somewhere …
The SLTs don’t need a flip mirror motor, the SLRs do.
It requires a complete redesign, I’m almost quite sure.
That the SLTs have the AF in the top doesn’t mean that it HAS to be there. Why can’t it be in the bottom (maybe the body is larger, but for the sake of a modular concept…)?
But: Still I would think that the differences between two concepts are two big.. but I am not a camera constructor, soit just a guess
@blabla – bad analogy, you should think more combustion engines vs electric, and in years to come you will see companies dropping oil altogether as soon as EV technology and infrastructure is ready.
Tech is progressing, I can agree that EVF is still not on par with good and bright OVF, but it’s good enough already, and will get much much better every year, soon surpassing OVF. Plus it’s going to be cheaper, and lighter, and smaller.
You don’t see many new film cameras from Nikon, Canon or Leica, do you? EVF is next step in digitalization.
IMO Sony is doing good job with EVF, and they should work on improving contrast detection focusing now (needs better and more efficient algorithms and chips, faster sensor readout, global shutter, etc), so they can drop mirrors and prisms altogether.
very well said
you just have to compare the A55 and the A580 sales to make a conclusion…
Your analogy is flawed in that the diesel/gasoline engine OPTIONS have been around and available for a long time. You can’t buy cameras with the options you prefer.
SLT technology is new and Sony is transitioning into it. On top of that comparing manufacturing and marketing of $50,000+ vehicles doesn’t work with $500-$3,000 cameras nor do they run on fuel. At the end of the day should Sony offer an OVF sure they could, but OVF’s are going to be dinosaurs soon so if it’s not this generation it will be the next? People can argue till the cows come home, but it’s going to happen and when something better then SLT/EVF comes along people are going to p&%s and moan about that as well.
There are manufacturers who produce only diesel vehicles and other that produce only petrol vehicles. However EVF vs OVF technology is more like comparing Hybrid or Fuel Cell vehicles to traditional fossil fuel vehicles… If you want to use a car analogy and in which case I could very easily understand someone like Honda switching all their vehicles to Hybrids to differentiate themselves in the market – which IS what Sony are doing.
Glad to see there is no SR code attached to this rumour, as it seems fishy. For one thing, if it’s true the guys at the top want to go EVF only they will go EVF-only and not give a fig what the technical guys say, instead this rumour is basically saying it’s the technical guys who decided to produce an OVF FF camera… Very unlikely.
However, sony have always said that they respected the importance of the high quality VF in the A900, and that replacing it with an EVF is not a trivial step in this segment, so we will really not know for sure until the 1 or 2 FF cameras are announced.
Personally I’d love to see a fast fps great low light 24MP FF A88 and a 36 MP FF A99, for lower than canikon prices.
Will the EVF be the death of the Sony Alpha range?
When I compare my NEX7 with my A900 (viewfinders), the A900 wins every time! There is simply no competition.
The EVF may, I repeat “may” someday be as good as the OVF but it hasn’t happened yet. The EVF is great on a camera such as the NEX7 where it is ideal as the optical version simply couldn’t be accommodated in such a small camera.
There are advantages to the EVF and I can see that it is a good idea as part of evolving camera design, but in my opinion, it just isn’t there yet.
There is a great deal to be happy with in the Sony Alpha range and I hope to be proven wrong about EVFs in the near future, but in the mean time I hope OVFs are kept for the top of the range models if nothing else.
People have been predicting the death of the Sony Alpha range since 2006…hearing it gets a bit tedious after 6 years…
+1 – so true! And yet Sony has a lot more market share now in Alpha than it did so let the naysayers go fly a kite!
Everything dies sometime- just a matter of when!
At some point Sony is going to have to decide if the resources and money spent on Alpha A Mount are worthwhile and account for lost NEX line development and advancement.
They’ll let the Alpha mount go soon enough. I don’t think Sony even really want it anymore- just hoping SLT will catch on, more like praying it will happen.
end of line.
That doesn’t explain them releasing lenses.
end of line.
I think the 500mm lens is a “fluke” been showing that one for … 5 years??? And they do some ridiculous soft announcement for it?
The 16-50 and 18-135 are consumer lenses, trying to attract videographers with the quieter SSM focusing with those. Not really a big investment in R/D there.
I’ll sip some Tequila and watch it unfold. When it finally happens I’ll be here smiling away. Then perhaps you and I can have a pint and cheers to the end of the debates, and the end of a Consumer electronics company trying to play to serious photogs.
end of line.
I disagree evf wins everytime comparing d700/a900 with nex7. Ovf is soooooooooo 2010.
Every time? Really?
Well, i think i am a quite happy blind man, because when i compared A77 and A900 viewfinders i hadn’t seen really BIG difference. But maybe because i am just a stupid amateur and don’t have years of expirience of shooting FF.
And tell me, did you really focused using manual lenses faster on A900 then on NEX7 with focus peaking? Every time?
Will the OVF be the death of the Sony Alpha range?
When I compare my A77 with my A900 (viewfinders), the A77 wins every time! There is simply no competition.
The OVF may, I repeat “may” someday be as good as the EVF but it hasn’t happened yet. The OVF is great on a camera such as the A900 where it is ideal as the optical version simply couldn’t be accommodated in such a camera.
There are advantages to the OVF and I can see that it is a good idea as part of evolving camera design, but in my opinion, it just isn’t there yet.
There is a great deal to be happy with in the Sony Alpha range and I hope to be proven wrong about OVFs in the near future, but in the mean time I hope RVFs are kept for the top of the range models if nothing else.
If Sony DID release a new OVF body and if the camera sold very well…..whould that royaly piss off anybody inside Sony?
Sony have had two OVF full frames for years, they know how well (or not) they sell.
They have had two very feature-poor FF models – but also very affordable. The moment Canon put video in a full frame SLR, the idea of an SLR without it became less appealing to quite a lot of people. Purists may disaggree, but they don’t buy most cameras; quite the contrary.
I have an A900 and a NEX-7, and there’s no doubt in my mind that the A900 has a superior viewfinder. Still, for low-angle shots, getting down on my knees and elbows to look through the angle finder (if I remembered to bring it) or lie sideways peeking throug the viewfinder is not as comfortable as squatting down and looking at the LCD – especially on a wet surface. So the live view does have its advantages, but EVFs don’t really have any that I can’t live without.
They were full frame and cheap. If anything they should have sold by the bucket-load.
Cliff said “If Sony DID release a new OVF body and if the camera sold very well…”
I am simply pointing out that Sony have already tried it and have the data showing if OVF full frames sold well or not. They don’t need to do it again. 😉
If the A900 didn’t sell well, we all understand it had nothing to do with its OVF. If it didn’t sell well, it was because the Sony brand itself was something “new” to the pro market.
Today? The brand is much better recognized and if I dare say,….even “respected” by pros?
Anyway,….a new A9x with OVF will be light years ahead in technology than their old FF cams.
Sony is trying to change old industry habits. I respect that, but while they are trying to change those habits, they have PLENTY of time to exploit and SELL to those old today too!
OVF is not dead today. Not for a while either. Canon/NIKON will sell hordes if OVF bodies in the next couple years at the same time OVF haters are stomping their feet declaring it dead.
Sony needs BOTH!
If Sony only makes pro EVF. It’s already limiting is audience before the cameras even it the stores! Half the pros out there won’t even look at that camera or give it a chance.
Stick a CaNikon badge on anything and it will sell well. They have massive brand advantage. When a CaNikon EVF camera comes out it will sell in massive numbers and people will suddenly say EVF is fantastic…
There is absolutely no point Sony releasing a CaNikon full frame clone, being a clone it will do NOTHING to attract large numbers of CaNikon pro users to it.
The number of existing Sony full frame users is insignificant, so basing any future strategy on a tiny number of existing users would be unwise.
You need a unique selling point, it’s one of the reasons why the Sony OVF cameras failed to sell in huge numbers and will continue to do so. There is no USP for a Sony dSLR, but there is for a SLT
I’m OK with EVF myself. I’m a video guy first and a photog second. I have spent much more time in the past 20 years looking through an EVF than I have an OVF. so, I’m very VERY accustomed to and comfortable with it.
For photography though, I lean ever so slightly to the OVF side. There is just something “beautiful” and organic about looking at light straight through a gorgeous lens. (ok, not straight but bounced up)
Sony’s FF Professional customer problem is this.
Sony is trying to tempt and offer a nice steak to an animal that is an herbivore. (animal that wont eat meat…) 😉
If Sony made an incredibly fast, super CLEAN, high ISO performing OVF body,..something that clearly trumps CanKikon,..they most certainly could eat at CaNikon sales and gain better footing in the FF Pro world.
THAT combination would attract new Pros!!
If Sony make OVF camera, it could be with much faster AF, especially in dimm light. Becacuse in EVF model AF sensors receive only 1/3 of light.
I like idea, that I could order camera specs, what I want, e.g. sensor, AF module, buffer size, EVF etc.
The OVF cameras still split the light so not all of it goes to the focus module, most of it goes to the viewfinder with some split to the focus module and some split to the exposure module.
@ LEdgars
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In OVF-Cameras the AF_Sensors get less than 1/3 of the light because the most light goes thorugh the viewfinder 😉
?????????
You don’t actually understand how AF works in an OVF model, huh?
It make sense to produce OVF and EVF until a-mount go completely mirrorless.
If Sony were making bundles of cash from producing OVF cameras, they would do so. Pretty obvious really!
It doesn’t appear to make commercial sense for SONY to pour development and resources into dSLR. Sony don’t have the brand awareness like CaNikon, who can release anything with a CaNikon badge on it and it will sell in huge numbers.
I think Sony doesn’t recognize difference in business models between entry level and pro/semi-pro.
In first case most people buy camera with 1-2 kit lenses and happily shoot until want a new camera. And new camera can be any brand, as they hardly invest anything in system.
For pro/semi-pro – different story. For every camera you sell a bunch of lenses and accessories which cost more then camera itself. And you bind a customer to the system because switch brand for him means buying anew all the lenses for new camera. For Sony it’s deadly important now to attract pro/semi-pro customers to create a volume for lenses/accessories market. They should sell cameras at half price and fight for every loyal customer they got.
Instead, I see a lot of people selling complete A900(A850) systems because there is no upgrade or expected upgrade with EVF which they don’t like.
Hey! They they sell stuff for about 6-12K each because can’t get a new camera. Does it really matters, do you make profit from selling cameras, if for every camera you sell 2-4 times more expensive lenses collection and almost guaranty your next camera order?
I think we are fully aware of the difference between the kit lens buyer and the person buying lots of glass. 😉
But your comment doesn’t explain the crux of the matter. Why, if Sony have made a bundle of money from OVF, aren’t they selling them? Bear in mind that they have been selling them for years, so have the sales data. 😀
This it what I afraid of. That Sony think we’ve been selling OVF for years and haven’t made much profit. Now we stop it and start selling EVF. That’s a “High-tech” cameras and it should go much better.
No way. They were fighting for customers, not just selling OVF’s or EVF’s. If some Canikon-guy will think that EVF is a great thing – that’s great! Sony got a customer, not just sold an EVF. But! If Sony-guy doesn’t like EVF – he becomes Canikon-guy. And this is very bad.
So, I’m pretty sure that Sony should go for both OVF+EVF for now. Even if OVF’s make less money than EVF’s. Even if no money at all. Just for market share, just to keep customers from leaving.
While it would be nice to have choice, I would rather Sony made a profit so that they continue with Alpha.
Losing money on OVF as a loss-leader (assuming they do) would be a bad choice.
I think you are failing to understand Sony’s business model, not them. You badly underestimate brand loyalty from ‘non-pro’ customers. These customers will stick with a brand so long as they are getting a good experience from them, in this case Sony offer much much more useful VFs for entry to mid grade consumer cameras, in the process give the best by far LV experience and higher frame rates and additional software features. When those customers go to buy a new camera after owning a Sony, will look at the crap live view or crap viewfinder on a D5100 or 600D or whatever and buy another Sony. And you know what? Those consumers turn into enthusiasts and enthusiasts into pros. You are right, trying to convince someone with a large collection of lenses and accs to switch brands is hard, instead start with all the new camera heads being born each day (metaphorically not literally) to become loyal to the brand offering things nobody else offers, that’s how. ‘Switchers’ should not be Sony’s focus, for the types of customers who are fickle enough to switch to your brand are fickle enough to switch away from it as well.
first the lcd screens didn’t match the crt ones .. but in time things change
i think same will happen with evf and ovf
exactly! But that’s why you could buy both LCD and CRT TVs till year 2008 for €400 (CRT) and only after first LCD TVs were offered for €300-500 there were no longer CRTs in the showrooms. Reduced to SLT, this means if Sony offers A57 for €400 (similar to Canons 1100D) it may be successful but not for €800.
1100D is not a competition to a57, more like a37
LCDs are still not better than CRTs in color reproduction.
Likewise EVF will take decades to completely overtake OVF in most regards.
Depends on LCD, my Eizo is quite capable in color reproduction. 😀 Tho it was better before as most CRTs wasnt too bad in color reproduction, unlike regular LCDs which really suck in colors. Unless you buy something like S-PVA, S-IPS Eizo or same grade with color profiling etc. But regular LCDs are useless for photography, unlike regular CRTs. 🙁
Of course, the super expensive LCDs are better or at least similar in colors, but then we have the black problem with LCDs, and uneven backlight, and the graininess of IPS panels, …
A good 22″ CRT beast still beats the crap out of 99,9% of LCDs out there. Of course it consumes loads more power, but it’s always like that, better at something, worse at something else.
Just like an EVF will always consume infinitely more power than an OVF – which consumes nothing.
LCD is lighter and safer for your eyes.
Oh dear, Sony’s dead granny OVF is haunting them. Give it a decent burial and let it rest in peace. And, provide your SLT & Mirrorless babies a great education and it’ll give you a bright future. You know what I’m sayin…Don’t resurrect the dead, otherwise, when it dies again, it’ll bring you along 🙂 Geesh, move on Sony, develop and make the best out of your SLT’s and mirrorless cameras. Your OVF’s can’t (sort of) compete or outclass Canikon, no matter what you do…period. Now, where’s my fullframe SLT….LOL
Prefer ovf and evf in the camera. Can Sony make a hybrid OLED viewfinder as well?
I am looing forward to a camera with the following:-
1)OLED viewfinder like NEX 7
2)OVF
3)light and compact like NEX cameras. Dslrs are too heavy.
4)useable touch focus and touch shutter. This is not a gimmick. This option complements the lack of focus points in entry level dslrs.(i.e. 9 or 11 focus points).
5) full frame. For less noise at higher ISO advantage and ability for shallow depth of field.
6)sensor stablization
7)swivel live view lcd. This is not gimick also. Allows different angle shooting.
8) Easy acces buttons for aperture, shutter speed, iso and exposure compensation.
Any companies reading this? Please help produce one such camera. Thx.
A lot of your “wishlist” is mutually exclusive or just plain nuts, like touch focus on a PDAF, full frame, heavy camera system, etc. This is a TOTAL gimmick. Everyone wants a better EVF/OVF and you want them to ignore that and touch the screen instead? On a large DSLR??
As per usual, the engineers say yes, but management say noooo.
I once read an interesting blog post by a guy who worked for Minolta during the Vectis era. It didn’t paint a very bright picture of what the engineers thought of management.
Well, at the end of the day if they’ve made the right decision they’ll make more money and if they’ve made the wrong one they’ll make less. Same as any business.
I would be very interested in this blog, if you could remember where you found id 🙂
Cheers!
It took quite some googling, but I found it;
http://www.shutterbug.com/content/vectis-wrecked-us
I’m sure that even amongst the “engineers” there will be a split between OVF and EVF, but so what?
The rumour doesn’t actually say “engineers” anyway. I would have thought that the “engineers” would be in favour of the new technology, not against it!
This rumour sounds like sour grapes from an OVF fan-boy.
EVF was invented by managers, not engineers. Hihihi..
OVF for 36MP DSLR 5fps (faster than D800 with similar features)
EVF for 24MP DSLT with say 15fps (faster than 1Dx & D4)
Should keep Sony in the game for a while
If Sony drops OVF at this time, many loyal customer, including myself, is going to jump ship to C/N !
[quote]But for now the NEX-7 kicks the ass with the OLED technology.[/quote]
ouch…
Especially in harsh light conditions. 😀
SR 10
There will be no future OVF cameras manufactured by Sony.
They are “all in” “damn the torpedoes” “full speed ahead” EVF all the way.
For those still clinging to the raft that maybe there might be a future OVF made by Sony I understand that this place
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
is looking for new members.
🙂
It is not that Sony are pushing the EVF and no one wants it. A lot of people would appreciate an EVF. Those who would switch to CaNikon because there is no more OVF, feel free to do so. There will be switchers from the other sides as well.
Indeed, as long as there are more new EVF users, Sony win. It’s all about the numbers, not which people think is “better”.
price and offer can be easily manipulated in favor of EVF. Of course people will buy SLT if there is no OVF around. The thing is not to block SLT but to offer OVF as alternative to actual Alpha clients. I have more money spend on lenses than on bodies, that makes me eventually buy an SLT, and so increase their sales number, this doesn’t mean I’m in favor of EVF. Without these existing lenses I would certainly buy a body from CaNikon easily and don’t repeat here permanently that Sony *MUST* give us an new OVF model. 😉
There has ALWAYS been OVF around, there has been six years of OVF 😀
Sony should have a pretty good idea by now of what sells and what doesn’t.
Who will guess with me who are those “guys who like OVF”? 🙂
My guess is photographers and former Minolta guys.
And they are right, if they do A99 and A990 (that would be good name choosing) I can bet, A990 will have higher sales.
My guess is that this rumour is bollocks.
Of course there’s a split: some engineers will lose their jobs and do its in their self-interest to cling to OVF technology.
But again, Sony has made its statement with EVF and it must stand by it or risk all by undermining itself in releasing another OVF camera. Its suicide if they do. So it’s not gonna happen!
Get with the times old men and stop holding on to the past for nothing but sentimental reasons. EVF is where it’s at an Sony is leading the way.
“The clerk at the store said that right now there is a significant division of opinion within Sony…”
From a clerk at a store! SR -20
http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/03/zeiss-70-200-f2-8-coming-to-canon-for-nab-2012/
ZEISS 70200 f2.8!!
WHEN WILL SONY GET THIS????????????
don’t need to buy just because it has CZ name. I own 24-70 CZ but I will still be using Minolta 28-75 if not because of SSM in 24-70.
BTW, those canon CZ will likely be manual focus.
That’s going to be a VERY expensive manual focus lens! They can keep it!
That’s not a photo lens. It’s for serious video.
And… it costs quite a bit…
“The expected price will be around $10k.”
However, I’d like all lenses to be similar design. Looks gorgeous.
+1 on the looks/design. Gorgeous! I would not want to use it though for the fear of blemishing it. Vitrine closet object. LOL.
Setting aside whether or not this lens has AF or even if it’s any good, it would still LOOK hot paired-up with a new Nikon D800E 🙂
it will certainly make heads turn.
All these theories about the source of the rumor certainly provide a good read… The actual source, at least the person I heard it from was a clerk at a well known store in Tokyo. He isn’t a fanboy of any sort that would matter here. His main camera is the Pentax 645D. He is an older guy who has been around for a very long time and while I’m not going to try and defend this rumor at all, because I have no idea where he got it, he is someone I implicitly trust. He seemed to think it was valid information but honestly, I have no way in the world of knowing whether this is anything even remotely close to the truth, or just someone’s dream.
That’s why I posted it as such, and fairly deep in an obscure thread at dyxum. Amazing how that sort of thing winds up here at SAR as a headline! 🙂
Interesting. Thanks for your post.
Well that certainly clears this one up, thanks for clarifying.
This rumour should be binned.
I am really happy with my EVF…
For my photography style, it is perfect.
But here Here are some real drawbacks of the EVF…
http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2012/03/12/the-evf-future/
Ref. comments section
I think Sony, should at least have two models with OVF (at least at the moment):
1 High-end APS-C (A77 equivalent)
1 FF
for people who prefer OVF.
—
I think Sony, should at least have two models with OVF (at least at the moment):
1 High-end APS-C (A77 equivalent)
1 FF
—
Absolutely!
Why don’t you just buy a EVF, then when you need to use an OVF, move your eye off the EVF or use a binoculars….
If you want to be really creative, you can tape the binoculars to the top of your SLT…
That’s right, because the previous OVF models from Sony have sold soooo well…
Actually they did. Sony never had problem with selling dSLRs.
You missed the “soooo well” bit. The A55 was said by Sony to be the reason they produced the A77 with EVF.
Last weekend I looked through the Nikon D800 OVF, while in a room with few lights. The OVF is so dark compared to my A77 EVF. For static object photography, I have no doubt that EVF is much more practical to use than OVF.
For sports, OVF is still preferable. A77 was an improvement for that matter compared to my A55. Hopefully Sony can improve again with the A99.
To Admin: Canon rumours site put carl zeiss might have 70-200 f2.8. Any rumors that this will come to sony alpha?
I say screw ovf. I got a77 and I will never look back.
There is too much lag in low light with my NEX-7 EVF, so OVF is still currently better. In a few years EVF’s will eventually supersede OVF’s, but not for now.
You can’t SEE through the OVF in low-light.
I compared my A700 OVF to my A77 EVF in a darkened room, I could compose the shot with my A77, I could not see ANYTHING with the A700 OVF. I can put up with a bit of lag in darkness if it means getting the shot. 😉
+1
EVF is a blessing in low light…. It is hilarious when people bash the very thing that helps them.
Maybe he was wearing night vision goggles…
I’m not sure what you guys are smoking, but the EVF in my NEX-7 is so laggy in really low light conditions it’s practically useless. I would much prefer having an OVF in those situations where I could see clearly. And I am not bashing Sony, I actually own a NEX-7 and a33. As of the EVF technology today, it has too many limitations with low lights to be superior to OVF as of yet. Get your head out of your asses and get over it, Sony fanboys.
Hello… The EVF is laggy because you have the shutter on > 1/20 of a second.
Set your ISO to around 800, change your shutter to such that the image you see through the EVF roughly represents the same level of darkness you see on your OVF.
We are not fanboys, WE JUST KNOW HOW TO USE OUR EQUIPMENT!
So you would rather see nothing with your OVF in low light condition???
Decrease your shutter time, you would find it won’t lag…
So I need to decrease my shutter time, compose the pic, then increase my shutter time? Yeah, because that’s real practical! The EVF should do that automatically (but of course it doesn’t, hence why the current state of EVF technology is not there yet in terms of being superior to OVF)
So you rather see darkness to compose your photo?
That is really superior right?
Rather than putting up with a bit of lag…
The very fact that you can use the EVF like a night vision goggles is pretty damn cool!
Look, I am trying to help you… If you are so absolute that the EVF is the devils’ tool, then by all means put a screwdriver through it and sticky tape a square frame above your nex7.
I can see both the advantages and disadvantages for the EVF and OVF. However I am not so biased as to dismiss the entire system because it doesn’t suit a particular purpose.
if you want to talk about “like night vision” can they give us back night shot or even night framing like i have on my old DSC V1
I wanted my A77 to be gold plated too…
That’s a very good article and you may not agree with everything in it but its one that everyone who posts on this site should spend just a few minutes and read.
http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2012/03/12/the-evf-future/
EVF with the option of a flip up mode for single shot low light or whatever would probably fix 90% of the issues people have with the EVF, especially if the new FF version had a ‘retina’ resolution (marketing buzzword I know, but if the EVF was marketed as having no discernable pixels…).
It already does. Retina display is a bullshit Apple buzzword that means very little. For comparison Apple went from a 1024×768 9.7″ LCD to a 2048×1536 9.7″ LCD. The EVF in the Sony a77 (and others) is what a 1″ OLED with 1024×768. That is way more ‘retina’ than any Apple ‘retina’ display – and I am an Apple user of 15 years. Also the flip up mirror isn’t what SLT needs, it needs more efficient AF system that only requires 10% of the total light rather than 30%. A flip up mirror option is a clunky workaround.
+1 on AF
AF tracking also need improvement.
SLT solved a downside to Sony DSLRs, loud mirror slaps. If Sony doesn’t plan to dampen the mirror, don’t bother making another OVF camera.
Poor flappy!
guess it woudl be too hard to put duel AF in athe higher end DSLRS
think about it OVF and std AF or MLU and on chip AF (slightlly sloer to lock on but higher frame rate and video) landscapers would get clean pictures video woudl have clear path and you coudl still use a large OLED rear screen for your
“EVF”
im sure it would be spendy and take a bit of space but to have all the fule options on a mid to upper level body woudl push me to get the better body
it would be like having a NEX7 with adapter and ovf all in one
i also liek to think that sony while pushing the new tec should keeep on or 2 bodys that “old farts ” like to ease them in the the new as the new tec grows
i ll call myself an old fart for this
Can someone please interpret as it is too early in the morning for me to call my interpreter.
Actually, there are very nice figures on Dyxum link.
Should be sent to Sony marketing guys.
[46.56%] Will stay with system based on current EVF capability
[25.25%] Will stay with system but would like OVF opt as well as EVF
[9.51%] May stay with system if EVF improves before next purchase
[13.77%] Will stay with system only if OVF option available
[4.92%] Have already switched/intending to switch due to EVF
So…
46,5% for EVF vs 53,5% for OVF
But most important.
18,7% are leaving Sony system without OVF plus up to 9,5% more can leave in near future depending EVF improvement
Do they have this figures in Sony?
We all know Sony is going to improve the EVF…
So in reality:
[46.56%] + [9.51%] > [25.25%] + [13.77%] + [4.92%]
As for the people threatening to leave or has left [13.77%] + [4.92%], good on them, once they leave, EVF will be 100%….
Do they have this figures in Sony?
—————————————————
As for the people threatening to leave or has left [13.77%] + [4.92%], good on them, once they leave, EVF will be 100%….
—————————————————
There is one bad thing if they leave.
Those who stay have to keep new lens design and production profitable. So, you pay about 10% more for lenses.
Why not to keep them. Just make A770 and A990 as sisters for A77 and A99 and have 20% more customer base.
Because what people say they will do on dpreview isn’t necessarily what happens in the real World.
Sony have sold OVF cameras for six years, there is plenty of sales data for them to make a decision. Only Sony know the sales figures.
It is VERY simple, yet people here don’t appear to get it. If OVF cameras sold in huge numbers, Sony would continue to sell them.
Sony are in it to make money, whether that is through EVF or OVF, SLR or SLT, Sony don’t care, they will make what SELLS and generates a PROFIT. It appears that Sony OVF cameras aren’t selling.
If A900 didn’t sell too well, it absolutely doesn’t mean that A99 will do. You can expect 80%(as from Dyxum figures) of A900/A850 users to buy an upgrade.
Every other copy of sold A99 would mean some Canikon guy looked at A99 and love it so that sell his 5D mark III or D800 and all his glass. Do you really expect a lot of such guys?
I agree that profit rules. But think that invest a bit and make 2 copy cameras will keep current users and return more in future. And oone more risk, if Canikon guys will not love EVF and Sony lose 30% of users because of lack of OVF – there will be no Alpha FF at all.
80% of what? A few dpreview users? Those numbers are insignificant. Sony need to sell thousands of units per MONTH, not a few hundred units to die-hard OVF users.
The only way to do that is to produce something different, something that stands out, not a CaNikon clone.
You are making the rather large assumption that many people don’t want SLT/EVF. Sure there are a vocal bunch that don’t, but there may be many more that do.
I can’t see Sony selling more than a 100k or so A99s, irrespective of viewfinder technology. There’s much more involved in getting the top end of the market to jump ship than that. Full frame users are generally the one’s that demand the most of a camera system, and Sony’s is much less complete than Nikon and Canon’s are.
“Because what people say they will do on dpreview isn’t necessarily what happens in the real World.”
Those numbers are from Dyxum, not dpreview… You really cannot compare these forums.
So you would rather have Sony, split their production, split their designs, split their research, so that people who refuse to acknowledge better technology will be happy???
Why the hell did we change from analog cell-phone technology to digital, even though the analog towers had a longer range and hence a wider coverage???
It’s not a real split. OVF and EVF cameras are same on about 80%. Making OVF version from EVF even easier. A lot of similar components, a lot of same HW and SW. So, making second camera isn’t double work, but something like 20% more for R&D and production investments. And you get fair 20% extra market. Plus 20% of market for lenses and accessories for free.
And no, analog cell network used in many cases where not enough people to justify GSM costs.
The OVF in a full frame is hideously expensive and complex to produce. I think you underestimate the cost.
@Rurik,
Sony has ended OVF… It’s dead… Time to move on, the funeral was held months ago.
I rather have Sony focus 100% on new technology, whether it is to improve/replace the SLT or improve/replace the EVF.
Sony has replaced the OVF… Time to move on.
In a few years, the SLT will be replaced with something better. I am sure we can have this discussion again then.
+100 loled
anyway, even they leave, eventually someday, they will regret missing all the fun.
I like the way you manipulated the figures:
I see it as:
46.56 + 9.51 = 56.07% in favour of EVF
(it is likely that there will be a new EVF)
25.25 + 13.77 + 4.92 = 43.94% in favour of OVF.
Funny that isn’t it. 😉
I can’t believe this is still a debate!
When are all you soccer moms and p&s people going to end this war?
Who cares of it’s EVF or OVF? The high ISO pics of your cats will all look the same!
Let’s all get along here!
Pros don’t shoot Sony, so this is a pointless thread.
There are a few pros that shoot with Sony.
You are just uneducated or unsophisticated.
Nonsense. Pros just don’t bother with review sites, they are out shooting pictures.
I made a six-figure income in each of the last 4 years only shooting Sony gear – does that make me “Pro” enough in your books? Or maybe I should shoot more cats.
Believe it. It’s everywhere still, not going away. Consumers want a choice not being told what to buy one way or another- deal with that reality, sleep like a kitten at night. Don’t deal with it, have an aneurysm and explode for us- it will be fun to watch.
end of line.
CaNikon don’t offer a choice. You are stuck with the OVF.
Even more reason for Sony too.
I think you’re a marshmellow and I just roasted you (just kidding of course you and I are on good terms now, but you have to admit that was an awesome reply!)
Just think, Sony offering more choice for users than the big two.
end of line.
Ever consider that Sony is the “other choice” for the Canikon crowd stuck with an ancient OVF and a clunky flip mirror?
I’ll quote from EOSHD on the topic of NEX7 EVF vs X-Pro1 hybrid VF:
“I feel I was too harsh on the EVF in my first look. It isn’t actually that far off the Sony NEX 7′s OLED TruFinder and it is better than the one in the GH2.”
…
“However it soon becomes apparent that there are subtle but important differences where the Fuji X Pro 1 does better than the NEX 7′s OLED.
If you don’t have your eye perfectly square to the viewfinder on the NEX 7, bright parts of the image ghost a little and corner sharpness falls off very readily. The optical design of the Fuji X Pro 1′s viewfinder is superior – probably because it has more room to work with, being a bigger unit than the assembly on the NEX 7.”
link: http://www.eoshd.com/content/7505/fuji-x-pro-1-second-look-and-video-mode
What is your point?
People who doesn’t know how to put their eye against the VF will be angry?
Most people with the Nex7 will just have to overcome this by ensuring that their eye center with the VF.
If there was something wrong with the unit itself that through proper operation would cause undesirable results, then I can say it is a fault.
Though Sony will probably improve on this… this is pretty lame…
this article says following (by Admin):
“I have to say that on first look the NEX-7 EVF is far more advanced and usable.”
So I quoted EOSHD and their article on the same topic.
I’m in the middle of deciding which way to go, if I should buy NEX7 or X-Pro1 – am very confused. I know that feature-wise NEX7 is better option. But I own X100 and hybrid VF is brilliant on it. Also I don’t shoot action, mostly landscape/architecture and street.
There are some problems with EVF though on NEX7 – display modes and there’s no way to customize what you want to have on your EVF (you can on Fuji X100/X-Pro1) so you can’t have histogram and level displayed at once – that’s my setup on X100 and it’s very useful for my photography.
So it’s set of features vs usability. When it comes to IQ we already know that X-Pro1 is better but it has quite shit AF (which I don’t care about that much).
NEX-7 will always be better than Fuji X-Pro 1. Biggest reason: more competitive price. Other reasons: better AF, lenses with OSS, ability to use Alpha lenses with AF, better EVF and many more reasons. In Japan, the price of NEX-7 already goes below USD 900.
well, let me put it this way:
NEX7 + 24mm f/1.8 Zeiss = £1844
X-Pro1 + 35mm f/1.4 Fujinon = £1978
so there’s small price difference.
Better AF – agree although it’s not a biggie for me as most of my subjects are static and for street I use zone focusing anyway
OSS – don’t care
Ability to use Alpha lenses – don’t care, don’t own any of the sony lenses
Better EVF – Fuji has hybrid OVF/EVF – you need to use it in order to understand advantages of it, but also must make sense for your style of photography
High ISO – very important for me and from what I’ve seen so far Fuji is better
Video – don’t need
Controls/Ergonomy – Fuji wins hands down, as X100 user I prefer to see what my settings are and the way I control camera suits me better
that’s why it’s such a tough decision for me, it’s very close between NEX7 and X-Pro1.
I guess I’ll just try to borrow both for a week(end) and will try them.
forgot to add:
– MF assist aid(s) – NEX7 wins, Fuji has only magnification, no focus peaking
and this is why I’m considering NEX7, to use it with other lenses, Fuji’s focus-by-wire is crap, it’s unusable and they’re planning M adapter and I’ve seen already Nikon and Contax G adapter and focus peaking would have been very handy but they haven’t got it
Hi Hexx,
Glad to see you are going to give both a shot. Digital Rev did a pretty brutal review on the X-Pro 1. I am intrigued by the VF on the X-Pro 1, it looks interesting.
On paper, the Nex-7 is more attractive because of:
– Has an external mic jack
– Has a flip-out screen
– Has in-camera HDR
– Significantly longer battery life
– Significantly smaller
– Slightly more lenses available
– Lighter
– Built-in flash
But using them both will be the deciding factor. Choose what you are happy with and go use it.
I am however a bit perplexed, how come the X-Pro 1 only has a raw range of 200-6400 while its jpeg range is 100-25600?
@wth
DigitalRev is a mixed bag when it comes to reviews – I don’t trust them 🙂 I always look at Luminous Landscape, Steve Huff and for technical review I usually check DpReview.
It really depends what you need on your camera, for example from your list:
– Has an external mic jack – I don’t need it
– Has a flip-out screen – I don’t need it
– Has in-camera HDR – I shoot RAW and I’m not fan of HDR
– Significantly longer battery life – with OVF Fuji reaches 1000 shots
– Significantly smaller – I have big hands
– Slightly more lenses available – there are 2 which I’d be interested in 50mm f/1.8 and 24mm f/1.8
– Lighter – not a biggie, Fuji weighs 450g
– Built-in flash – I don’t use flash
ISO100 and ISO12800/25600 are low and hi modes for jpg. Regarding HDR, you have similar functionality on Fuji, they call it DR(200/400/800 where 200 is standard) – I never use it
I’ll have to wait until both become available everywhere so it will be easier to borrow them because currently NEX7 is still out of stock or items in stock are sent to customers who pre-ordered long time ago and X-Pro1 is only hitting shelves now.
Or I’ll just pass on this round and will wait for FF NEX 😉
@hexx,
If those features aren’t important to you, then you have a pretty tough choice to make between the two cameras.
It seems true that the X-Pro 1 does have a more innovative sensor that stripped away the filters. Seems to perform a bit better in terms of low light shooting.
If you do decide to get one, do let me know which one you opted for.
seriously, cant u decide what you like and why for urself instead of being a Hypochondria following every little thing any reviewer mention?
LOL with the canon 1dx finally arriving there is no need of ovf or evf… sony will quit 😉 too much superiority for canon this time!
Stupid troll is stupid.
Are you new to saying Sony will quit or have you been around since 2006 and said it every year?
Sony won’t quit. They have new CEO and if I remember correctly his aim is digital photography, I wish Sony excels in this area, we need more competition.
+1
My buttcheeks just clapped for you.
Do you have some … binaca?
end of line.
Give me OVF barebones without video or frills. Basic camera with top shelf world class viewfinder in a compact body like Maxxum 7 film body with super high 48mp. Use Medium Format for design philosophy of feature set… NO GIMICKS.
I’m a print maker. Not a wanna be TerentinoLucasScorcese Sundancer.
Heck… Make a commemorative version of a Maxxum 7000 or 9000 (with wind knob). Take us back to basic photo instruments please.
Must every camera shoot video? Where have the Purists run off to?
Leica – and medium format I guess are the last corners where video hasn’t been seen yet 🙂 I’d also prefer proper camera for stills only without the video
You don’t want the frills, don’t turn them on! Nobody forces you to press the video button, or use the exposure meter, or use auto-focus….blah blah…
If you want your dream device, make one yourself and see how long you remain profitable. 😉
Don’t kid yourself. Nothing beats an OVF. I have the NEX-7 and X100. I never use the EVF on the X100. Hate the lag. The OVF in the X100 is so much brighter than the NEX-7 and there is ZERO LAG.
EVF fanboys seem to like man-made radiation poking in your eyes. Me, I would rather stick with mother nature and go for the fast, bright OVF or hybrid.
+ 1
I want to tell the EVF fanboys something.
I understand being a fan of progress and technology. I, too, hope that EVF will one day match or even exceed OVF. The usefulness of OVF has the potential to exceed OVF. However, TODAY, even the NEX’s EVF is vastly inferior to a good OVF, like the one on the X100 or 100% coverage FF DSLR. All of those OVFs also pales in comparison to the OVF you get on medium format. Being a fanboy of technoloy doesn’t mean you have to be defensive about the current reality.
It appears you are being the defensive one, even replying to your own comment!
that’s correctly done, replying in context – that’s how it should be done 😉
“Being a fanboy of technoloy doesn’t mean you have to be defensive about the current reality.”
The current reality is that Sony is NOT making their next FULL FRAME OVF.
So you as a Fanboy of antiques should practice what you preach and stop being so defensive about the current reality.
It’s not about being a fanboy it’s about accepting change and moving on. I like the glass I have and it fits my Sony cameras. If you can’t live with the SLT/EVF move to canikon; otherwise accept the path Sony has chosen and move on. In a perfect world my a77 would have a 100% OVF with information overlays, but it doesn’t. I’m ok with that and I’m just glad Sony continues to produce and innovate cameras that work with my legacy glass and accessories.
+1
Amazing! So simple, yet so true.
“EVF fanboys seem to like man-made radiation poking in your eyes. Me, I would rather stick with mother nature and go for the fast, bright OVF or hybrid.”
Why are you using a digital camera? The radiation from the larger back screen can’t be good for your face every time you stick your face against your beloved OVF…
Well, the good news for you is that pin hole cameras are very cheap and requires no dangerous batteries. You might have to put up with plastics, but I am sure with a bit of effort, you will be able to build one out of wood.
Don’t forget to point your OVF directly at the sun to help your eyesight…
Popcorn all gone.
Time to make some more.
🙂
Pass me the poker, there’s more stoking to do… 😉
It is hilarious, the arguments in this thread…
I hope Sony doesn’t read the shit in here…
have you ever tried the 1dx? no camera can compete with it.. it has got all the main upgrade for a perfect camera… i think sony can go with amateur photographer only, cant compete in pro photography, try 1dx and you will see the difference. preordered 2 ^_^
erm, have you seen the PRICE of the 1dx?
I need quality … photography is my work so price is the last thing if i can reach quality/flessibility
This “news” is 100 % fake. Sorry to say your “source” just made up this, and is nothing more than this. But I understand that is a slow day and the site needs some trafic 🙂
See “Jim Peterson” above. The source was a store clerk! 😀
Thanks, I was to bored to read all messages in this very long thread. 🙂
but you’re missing the fun! 😀
Oh no, not again.
Honestly, I think this “news” sounds like rubbish. I feel like it’s just keeping the debate raging to try and delay people from leaving Sony.
Honestly, this website kept me a Sony user for a lot longer than I would have been by my own feelings. The promise of better things if I wait just a little longer. The promise of new lenses, better bodies, new technology, just around the corner. It’s kept me longer than I should have stayed.
I should note that I’ve sold all my Sony gear now. And it’s amazing how much it depreciates.. nobody wants it any more! Hell, most places here in the UK don’t even have stock of the better lenses – 16-35, 35g, 85 etc.. none of them in stock in the biggest camera stores. Almost nobody is buying these things.
My advice to anyone thinking of jumping – do it NOW. Your stuff is fast becoming worthless. If anyone is thinking of buying Sony, wait a while and pick up some bargains.
Of course the opposite could also be true. Those lenses could raise in price significantly when a Sony full frame is announced.
CaNikon lenses also depreciate quickly due to the volume of them in the second hand market.
Hi David,
Why are you still here? Do you need the links to the Nikon forums?
As for people selling their stuff, go for it! I might be able to find someone with a good 135 STF for cheap. Or a reflex 400mm…
Don’t worry you are not alone, I think two other people jumped as well. Now do your duty as a bitter X-Sony user and go to the Nikon forums for some brand trashing.
As for me, I am off to shoot things with my cameras.
“I might be able to find someone with a good 135 STF for cheap. Or a reflex 400mm…”
There never was any A-mount 400mm reflex lens, the old Sigma 400mm mirror reflex was only available for Minolta’s SR-mount (and various non-Minolta mounts, of course).
The Minolta Vectis 8/400mm reflex was a V-mount lens, and thus cannot be adapted to A-mount cameras.
Perhaps you meant the Minolta AF Apo Tele 4.5/400mm High-Speed G or the Minolta AF Reflex 8/500mm?
I don’t care about EVF or OVF, what I care about is a good camera, Sony takes two years planning, two years arguing (while no FF camera is available), and preparing us for something the other two brands are releasing right now… And then Sony is gonna show us something, almost surely lower than the other two brands, oh but 200 bucks cheaper, and take two more years to actually deliver one due to production delays… And then two years later discontinue the already dated camera to start all the bs again. Anyone who denies this is not living in this planet…
some of us do but under the rock 🙂
That isn’t a rock… It’s an OVF…
Yup, Sony is rubbish, it’s a bad company… *yawn*
But they make good cameras and innovate unlike some other companies.
Their camera has helped me with my photography.
I am thankful.
Amen.
Luis has a point here. Sony lacks in consumer support. Be it firmware updates or warranty repairs. That’s why many shops do not sell Sony SLR/TMR.
I think what he meant to say is that Sony needs to release a professional care services…. Sony Professional Services.
If he stated something intelligent like this, I would agree, rather than instigate that they should release their products first or at the same time of Nikon and Canon.
In some ways, I am glad Sony releases their products after Canon and Nikon as it gives them time to evaluate the market.
I have been an early EVF adopter (started with the Panasonic G1), and have generally been pretty happy with EVFs and the latest Sony EVF is excellent!. However I must admit that there are some situations where the EVF doesn’t work very well. Most problematic are the high contrast situations. Even the impressive A77/NEX-7 doesn’t work very well there. I still have a traditional OVF DSLR and the idea of abandoning OVF altogether is still scary 🙂 Plus if I go to FF one of my main goals would be to get as much IQ and high-iso goodness as possible. So the 1/3 stop loss in the mirror still irks me. I know its not the end of the world but considering that I don’t envision using my FF DSLR for video, I just don’t feel the need to give up that light. Something like an A55 is good enough for taking my family videos and other casual shots. I would use my FF primarily when I need optimum IQ for stills so I would appreciate that the camera doesn’t compromise any aspect of IQ to support video. Obviously not everyone has needs similar to mine, so I wont whine and cry if Sony doesn’t deliver that 🙂 but this is my preference anyway
Just put that 24 mega pixel chip on the Alpha 580 and improve the electronics and you have an affordable camera upgrade for the rest of us.
After a99 is released the demand for OVF will drop to the point where OVF is not a sound financial step for Sony.
who win who loses, and so? it doesnt affect anyone’s shooting once they adapted themself to one camera.
im still using A300 till today, and my photo, kicks A900, D700 or 5Dii users in their balls. my A300 has worst ovf ever made, worst iso sony ever develop, slowest AF, and endless of “worst” ever made component. but i still shoot good photo. it has nothing to do with how terrible a camera is… its how good u shoot. (or probably your case is, how rich your are and buying the latest gadget that suit your taste will make u sleep better at night knowing u just show them off and make bunch of kiddos jealous of you)
come’on kids, grow up!
Yes and my cybershot is a transformer that saves the world from bad people who wants new cameras…. My cybershot is pink and kicks hasselblad in the sensor too…
Are suggesting that edpaul can’t get excellent images from the A300? If so, having had the A200 I know for a fact you are mistaken. 😉
So many foolish EVF people try to justify their choice by claiming OVF people have never used EVF so don’t know what they are missing. Certainly not so with me, I’ve used EVF cameras for some 20 years, as long as they have been available. And used OVF cameras for over 60 years. I know them both very well. And because of technical differences that make my photography much easier with a OVF than a EVF I choose to use OVF cameras for nearly all my shooting, and EVF cameras for the very limited times it has some use, mostly when I need a cheap, light camera for bike touring or such.
I was out on one of our frequent photo forays this weekend. Shooting with my a700 system AND with a brand new Sony HX200v bridge camera (EVF for those that don’t know). Naturally the HX200v was way outmatched by the a700. Except for the super long tele of the HX200v and it’s small size.
The a77s I’ve tried out had much the same defects of a EVF viewfinder that the HX200v has. Way long way for the EVF to go to be the choice for most of my shooting. It’s clear I shoot a much wider range of shooting than most of the EVF folks if they have not seen the problems of EVF.
When EVF shoot a full variety of shooting as is done by pros and upper level amateurs with OVF I think they too will find that EVF is not a good enough viewfinder and OVF, with it’s limitations is a much better choice.
And as it is now, far, far more OVF upper end cameras are sold than the very limited number of Sony EVF cameras. And that will continue for decades if Sony continues their route of going for limited cameras.
When Sony first took over from Minolta with DSLRs their upper management said they wanted to remove all the mechanical stuff from the cameras, they were too complex for their simple, cheap camera manufacturing methods. It was nothing to do with what was needed for high end photography, they just wanted it to be cheap to build and who cares about photography. They have not changed. They still want to pass off limited camera designs as being all. Not surprised if it’s not popular with all Sony employees, but the boss will win.
Walt, change the fucking record mate.
You just can’t teach an old dog new tricks can you Walt.
At the end of the day it’s all about personal preference. I’m certianly not trying to convince anyone that EVF is the best thing since sliced bread, but it’s also not the horror you and many on this website claim it to be. If your not happy with Sony it’s your choice to move on and there are many exellent systems out there to choose from.
Misery loves company.
It’s why I am here. 😀
“And as it is now, far, far more OVF upper end cameras are sold than the very limited number of Sony EVF cameras.”
And what is your specialised quiz subject? “Stating the bleedin’ obvious”, it would seem. With the respective numbers of cameras sold by Canikon and Sony (EVF/OVF or otherwise) just exactly what is that comment of your supposed to prove?
We get the message – the EVF doesn’t work for your specialised (stop confusing “specialised” with “advanced” or “upper end”) area of photography. So be it. But I’m aware of a number of advanced – in the true sense – photographers whose range of shooting is considerably more diverse than yours and who find the EVF – with its limitations – on balance much superior to the OVF.
Walt,
“When EVF shoot a full variety of shooting as is done by pros and upper level amateurs with OVF I think they too will find that EVF is not a good enough viewfinder and OVF, with it’s limitations is a much better choice.”
You got me stumped here… Had to read this about 5 times to realize your contraditctions. Please don’t speak for the professionals, they will use what they see works best.
Sony is having a hard time penetrating the market with their OVF line of Full Frames. If it was selling like hot cakes, they wouldn’t have discontinued the OVF.
Can’t you see, Sony is attempting to carve out a larger piece of the market to gain more traction with the photographers community. They are doing this by offering newer technology that differentiates them from Canikon…
“When Sony first took over from Minolta with DSLRs their upper management said they wanted to remove all the mechanical stuff from the cameras, they were too complex for their simple, cheap camera manufacturing methods.”
Where did you hear this from?
Sony is removing all mechnical parts from the camera as it will increase the reliability and mean time before failure (shutter and Mirror failures). Doing this makes the camera more professional rather than making it less profesional. If you are a professional, wouldn’t you prefer equipment that last longer and functions consistanty?
It’s not all doom and gloom.
@wth: ““When Sony first took over from Minolta with DSLRs their upper management said they wanted to remove all the mechanical stuff from the cameras, they were too complex for their simple, cheap camera manufacturing methods.”
Where did you hear this from?”
Are you actually this new to our mount that you are not aware of this, one of the most “famous” and controversely discussed Sony interviews in the net, “Yakuta Nakagawa: The design must become more electronic” in PEN Weekly in March 2006?
It has been cited all over the net up to the present. After initial hopes for a bright future with Sony, most of the A-mount photographers saw Nakagawa’s “vision” as a horror scenario for our mount, and saw it with relief that Sony continued to bring out fine pieces of craftsmanship such as the DSLR-A700 and even more so the DSLR-A900 in the following years…
You should look a little closer before you go on the attack! wth was quoting walts original post.
“When Sony first took over from Minolta with DSLRs their upper management said they wanted to remove all the mechanical stuff from the cameras, they were too complex for their simple, cheap camera manufacturing methods.”
Hm, can’t see what’s wrong with that post. I was using nested double-quotes in order to cite Walt inside wth’s post. (Does the forum software support BBCodes, now? [quote]Test[/quote].)
David, it’s good to hear that you sold all your gear. The last thing we need is one more whiney Sony user bemoaning what their gear can’t do.
The only ones who care what DSLR gear they have are Nikon or Canon users. Those who use Sony, Pentax, Fuji, etc… well they could care less what people think. Why? Because it’s people who take the pictures and not the camera. The camera is a tool for a capture.
My A200… then A550… then A55 have all been great tools with overall superb image quality. I could care less what is popular or what has a bigger market share. When I put my Minolta 50mm f1.4 or Sony Zeiss 16-80mm f3.5-4.5 or Rokinon 85mm f1.4 lens on I am happy as a peach. Ironically, the Rokinon works excellent with the EVF specifically because it will only shoot in manual mode.
Do I wish there were some changes? Yes. I do wish that the buffer speed wasn’t so limited… but I work with it or around it rather than pi$$ and moan ad nauseum. Plus having the stabilization built into the body is a brilliant engineering choice. Sony also had wireless capability from the A100.
At the end of the day my A55 is a great tool. I will either get a A65/A77 or a NEX-7 as my next purchase. Nothing makes me happier than buying up cheap Sony/Minolta gear/lens on Craigslist (*like the Sigma 28mm f.18 lens I bought this week).
I am proud to use Sony.
+1
I am beginning to see a trend… Most people who agrees with Sonys decision are actually writing stuff that makes common sense…
… and those that don’t agree continue to write NONsense. they think that because they own alpha-mount equipment that gives them the right to fill this and every other forum with their whines and FUD about Sony’s direction. Since they’ve made it clear that the only reason they’ve stuck with Sony is the cost of switching, and have gone out and bought enough kit which they hope will see them out (with no intention of ever buying a Sony EVF DSLR) then they really ought to just get on with their hobby, and let those that want to have rational discussions do so. Everyone is entitled to contrary opinion (it would be very boring indeed if everyone agreed 100% of the time), provided it is expressed fairly.
It’s the broken record that we’ve been hearing for years, together with his arrogance and condescending contempt for others, that makes one particular individual one of the most detested forum contributors here and elsewhere.
Bruce, I’m not denying that Sony make good cameras. I bought my first a500 because I liked the way it felt compared to Canon and Nikon around the same price point. The menus made sense. Buttons in a better place for my hand.
And yes I love the in-build stabilising, the fast live view etc.
I’m not denying any of that.
I just don’t understand why the huge amount of defensiveness from Sony users when somebody questions WTF the company is doing. You can’t deny that Sony are quite mental – they’ve released 28 alpha cameras in 5 years, and only have 7 current models. Nikon are *STILL* selling the d90! Great cameras like the a580 had a life of around 11 months until Sony discontinued them. THAT is what makes me nervous.
Plus I explained my other reasons for leaving before:
Easier to rent gear
Easier to borrow gear (friends etc. I’m the only Sony users)
More service/repair places which can service Nikon gear
Better second hand market – there are huge stores dedicated to selling Nikon gear like Grays of Westminster
My wedding 2nd shooter shoots Nikon, so it makes sense. No way would she move to Sony. I can’t see why anyone would join Sony now while they have no full frame models.
etc etc etc
In short, I’m not whining about the cameras. I’m whining about the company.
The most likely and intelligent reason why Sony discontinued their A900 and A850 is because they are re-purposing their production line for the A99.
You can’t expect them to build a new factory just for a new camera.
If Sony announces a new camera too early, they are leaving themselves open for the competitors to position new products to overshadow them.
Thanks for your explanation on why you are leaving, though I don’t really care, I am surprised you didn’t do your research before investing into the Sony ecosystem.
However, time to move on. It would make more sense to bash Sony at the Nikon forums. Doing it here will only annoy the users that wants a sensible discussion. If you have something smart to contribute to the discussion, then by all means go ahead and post.
Really? you guys are like the people on deck of the titanic, listing to the band saying ” everything is fine” heads up YOUR F-ING ship is sinking, Sony abandoned Pro’s when they discontinued full frame with out a replacement. How sad is it that canon and nikon are both releasing new Full frames and sony has its thumb up its ass!
I Agree with david, sony gear is now worthless I’m keeping all my sony gear, because I love it and I can’t image selling my work horse of the past 4 years. It will be my trusted back up to my new Nikon D800.
wth – you are dumb and have ‘zero’ business sense. You don’t have the faintest idea what you’re talking about. Obviously you have no clue about how modern production works – yet you attempt to opine on it. I suspect you are just as clueless when it comes to photography. Your overwhelming desire to have the loudest and most rude posts on this board is the only thing you have going for you
@wth: “The most likely and intelligent reason why Sony discontinued their A900 and A850 is because they are re-purposing their production line for the A99.”
Sony is discontinuing the DSLR-A900 and DSLR-A850 because they have sold the batch and it would be cost-prohibitive to produce another run of parts.
While it would have been okay to keep the DSLR-A900 in the portfolio for another one or two years (perhaps adding alot of the missing functions in a firmware update or introducing a few of the missing accessories), the problem is not that the DSLR-A900 was discontinued in October 2011 some three years after its introduction. The problem is that there is no successor, and that, if we can extrapolate from the SLT-A77V to what a future “SLT-A99V” might look like, the latter won’t be able to fill that gap, either! At present, Sony has neither an advanced amateur, semi-professional or even professional-level camera in their A-mount portfolio, nor do they offer a full-frame camera or a DSLR with optical viewfinder. All they have right now is entry-level and midrange half-frame SLT cameras for newbies and amateurs. A disastrous situation for a manufacturer who wanted 20% and more of the market originally – and now is actually losing market share after reaching a peak of some 9-14% (depending on locale) some years back. Nevertheless, it is no wonder, given that Sony has fooled and abandoned those, who have invested most heavily into their original and prosperous looking system around the DSLR-A900 and some high-grade full-frame lenses. Sony is not giving us any choices in A-mount any more, while the very reason for why camera systems exist is to have choices in order to be flexible for various photographic tasks. The problem is that Sony views cameras like “fire-and-forget” fashion items and gimmicks instead of as photographic tools, and that the company continues to show that they don’t understand the idea of systems and still haven’t learnt how photographers think – and they treat us accordingly. And that, six years after they took over the mount and about three-and-a-half years after they seem to have lost their path somehow, many people have lost all their trust and loyality in them as well and that they are turning away from our mount in growing numbers. We need to stop this, Sony needs to stop this if there should be any future in A-mount.
There are numerous reasons for this, but they are all down to Sony not listing to their customers (and potential customers) and a “We know better than you” attitude, while at the same time showing that their higher management has no clue about photography beyond a point-and-click experience, which they apparently are trying to bring to A-mount cameras as well. This may be okay for entry-level equipment but certainly not for cameras in the 7/8/9 range.
“Thanks for your explanation on why you are leaving, though I don’t really care, I am surprised you didn’t do your research before investing into the Sony ecosystem.
However, time to move on. It would make more sense to bash Sony at the Nikon forums. Doing it here will only annoy the users that wants a sensible discussion. If you have something smart to contribute to the discussion, then by all means go ahead and post.”
Actually, it is fanboyish, arrogant and at the same time often clueless-about-our-system posts like yours which are scaring away people from a reasonable discussion among grown-ups. Stop pushing other people! It harms the discussion and indirectly it harms our system. A-mount users should be very interested in the reasons for why someone leaves our mount, because everyone who leaves is a nail in the coffin of our system, and it will ultimately bring us less choices, lower quality and higher prices. You certainly can learn alot by listening to them, and Sony could and should learn from them as well, because nobody (in particular not former loyal customers) is taking it on the light side when switching systems. Being critical and pointing out the shortcomings of our system is a good thing, it is the only way to help our system survive.
It seems to me that the people doing the most whining and least photography are the SLT folks. Whining constantly that there are people who don’t believe their mythology. Grow up SLT folks, OVF folks are not children but for the most part very experienced photographers who carefully evaluate the gear they buy and then get out and use it. About time you accepted your choice’s limitations.
Thank you – for proving my point above. 🙂 🙂 🙂
Again 😉
bkd – that’s the point where you never contribute anything meaningful to any forum discussion, proved yet again here. As you do in dpreview
That’s your opinion, to which you’re entitled. I don’t see too many sharing that opinion, yet see plenty that share mine.
And I note that as usual – here and elsewhere – you decline to answer direct challenges, provide links etc, to your ridicuous statements, proving only that they’re FUD.
i recently bought the a77 and its rubbish…if sony cant keep live feed to the evf while panning its doomed…only sony can take magnesium alloy and make it feel like a plastic cheep cam…all i can say is if its not broken dont try and fix it…
Did you not handle and give the camera a thorough test before parting with your cash?
well im from india sony here are only intrested in selling tv’s, there is no hands on here. i did a lot of on line research and thought it cant be that bad but i was wrong its that bad, the af module is fantastic only if they had used it in an ovf cam sony would have increased their credibility tremendously…
Did you use the setup menu to turn off the instant review as was suggested to you by a Dyxum forum member when you made the same claim over there? Maybe you should look for solutions before condemning something.
You are the first owner I’ve heard complain about the feel of the a77. Don’t know where you’re coming from. The a77 is ergonomically great, feels solid (not plasticy), and is very comfortable in the hand.
i did thanks to jeromy it does help, but you still miss so many shots because its so jerky you cant follow the action, i’m using the class ten sd card its slightly usefull in six megapixel size,
i already have dust spots on the sensor or the beam splitter i dont know, i tried using the blower it dosnt help..?