As you have read Panasonic is considering to make some serious changes in the future of the G camera series. Now I would like to you to come up with your suggestions for the future Panasonic camera and lens strategy. I just make some example of what could be done:
– GX series should have an integrated viewfinder…
– Launch a larger FF sensor system with new FF lenses that are compatible on MFT cameras too
– Get rid (or simplify) the G, GF, GH, GX definitions.
– Make entry level GH and high level GH cameras.
– Create fully and fast-af electronic adapters for Nikon and Canon lenses to allow Canon-Nikon pros to easily switch over to G cameras.
– Offer cameras with hybrid OVF and EVF viewfinders.
– Tighten the partnership with Leica and create a real Leica-Panasonic camera with a few real Leica lenses
– Follow Fuji’s route and create a “old style” designed camera.
– Create a pro service and network of pro photographers to advertise it.
– Focus effort on a partnership with Sigma to further develop the Foveon sensor
These are just examples. But please let me know your key strategy points and I will put the on vote in a poll I am going to post in a few days. Thanks!
188 Responses
Fast AF adapters for Canon and Nikon lenses? Hybrid OVF/EVF finders? Are you that much of an idiot?
Idiot no, wishful thinking yes. Even Canon and Nikon aren’t able to make adapters that work well (yet) for their own mirrorless system, how would Panasonic accomplish that? Nikon is partway there though with the Nikon 1 adapter and PDAF on the sensor, but limited to the senter focus point. For sure better than the Canon adapter, but not very usable for focus tracking with long tele(zooms).
Panasonic got a lot right whith the GH3 IMO, but bring multiformat sensors back, and get sensors with GH3-level performance to at least G and GX-models.
IMO:
GF, OK as it is, but update the sensor
GX, again mostly OK, but add viewfinder.
G, dont dumb it down compared to GH, but focus more on size (smaller), no weather sealing, cheaper, maybe simpler viewfinder and less accessories (like battery grip)
GH, mostly fine, but get it somewhat down in size again (GH2-like) and use battery grip to increase size for those who want that.
And of course, they all need focus tracking.
Lenses are mostly fine so far, but as the GH moves towards semipro users we’ll need more high perforamance lenses. A good telezoom should be next IMO, something like a 70-300mm F4.0 or 100-400mm F4.5 or F5.6.
And why exactly should Panasonic make Canon Nikon AF adapters?
To boost sales of Canon & Nikon lenses and sell less Panasonic’s own ones?
Which planet do you live on?
Good adapters for Canon and Nikon would make mFT bodies usable for 80-90 % of dDLR users. Get one mFT body and one or two compact lenses, use old CaNikon lenses where necessary. It would provide a very smooth “upgrade path” for CaNikon users who want something smaller and mirrorless.
I agree with that, it makes a lot of sense
If it wasn’t clear, I agree with what SPAM said.
@spam I have used my 70-200VR2 on a V1 with the adapter and while currently limited to the centre point , it is far faster than using my Olympus FT lenses on my E-M5.I think that Nikon and Canon are waiting on a fully competent adapter before launching an APS or larger mirrorless
I certainly think Nikon is on the right track with the Nikon 1 adapter, but what mirrorless need in general is better focus tracking, focus speed is alread quite good with the right lenses. For good/flexible tracking we’ll need more than one focus point.
I’m not sure why the Nikon adpater support only the center point, could be just immature technology, but could also be some more fundamental problem with on sensor PDAF that’s difficult to fix.
I certainly hope it’s fixable, and soon. I expect Nikon to use their technology on larger sensors too, we’ll see if they’re confident enough to make mirrorelss replacements fro the D3200 and D5200 or if they’ll keep the mirror for now and use the on sensor PDAF only in Live view mode (like Canon).
@admin:
The adapter is there already: it’s called the SpeedBooster.
Learn to focus like a man. 😉
Hehe, doesn’t have fast AF!
A pocketable fixed lens compact with clean ISO 6400 and an optically perfect f/1 12-1000mm equivalent zoom, all for a price of $200 or less.
Oh I forgot, must be weather sealed, have 5-Axis IS, a 36 MP multi-aspect sensor, and most importantly it must have the latest version of android and be able to make phone calls, plus 128 MB/s bitrate for video, and did I mention it must come in at least eight colors? Oh and certainly don’t forget IT MUST HAVE A REAL THREE-INCH SCREEN!
You forgot the built in thermos to keep your coffee warm when out on a cold day.
manual control: apterure, iso, etc with dedicated buttons.
YES! As many dedicated controls as possible. Improved sensor, frame rate and tracking AF.
Give me those things and leave the basic body similar to the GX1…I do not mind clipping in my VF.
I do not understand the FF speculation HERE? Please see:
Canon
Nikon
Leica
Etc. websites…???
I hope GX2 get the Manual Video mode.
I completely second you with that.
Manual video mode.
Small, brick simple camera with full video capabilities.
For me all of cameras should have same top sensor and abilities and vary by controls and form (grips, flashes and VFs etc). It will simplify the choice for those who need top IQ (everybody actually does), but don’t need extra features.
Sensors and lenses keep getting better and better, so why switching on FF? One would expect that at least our Admin should belive in 4/3! 😀
Better enable high quality and bitrate manual video modes on G series. Why prefer a so called entry level GH over a G?
Fast AF is excluded as Canikon pro lenses are designed primarily for PDAF.
Hybrid viewfinders have limited usage even for primes and are almost useless for zoom lenses. Better focusing on high resolution and reduced lag EVFs.
Panasonic has just announced its revolutionary new sensor technology. Not really the best moment to claim for developing a Foveon sensor…
“Sensors and lenses keep getting better and better, so why switching on FF? One would expect that at least our Admin should belive in 4/3! ”
Because of the flange distance, if Panasonic would make a FF mirrorless camera, you could mount almost EVERY LENS EVER MADE (without autofocus, limitations apply).
Panasonic has excellent crop modes (at least GH3 does), so if would be ok for them to use normal cropped m4/3 lenses on that camera. Then again, if I could cherry pick the best lenses out of nearly unlimited selection, I would most likely do so..
That is pure wishful thinking.
To get a mirrorless FF with short flange distance you must get microlenses at the edges of the sensor like Leica did. It’s an *expensive* proposition tailored for only a few lenses.
Sony so far has provided only one mirrorless FF with an integrated lens, a *moderate* WA.
So it’s completely premature to boast ‘ EVERY LENS EVER MADE ‘ can be adapted. There are plenty of problems to solve before that.
Is this what you are referring to? I wonder how fast til we see it in a camera?
http://www.slashgear.com/panasonic-develops-micro-color-splitters-for-super-sensitive-sensors-05268076/
Exactly.
sensors get better but the laws of physics do not change like for like technology will give a FF a 2 stop advanatge no matter what.I wouldn’t consider using my E-M5 for anything over 1600ISO as it sucks especially in the low light scenarios I use high ISO.The sample where we see folk shooting in bright daylight claiming how good high ISO is now are having a laugh.
The old , I don’t need high ISO arguments largely originate due to the dreadful performance of current and previous cameras.Sure it might only be a niche but imagine the possibilities of genuinely high quality 6400ISO and above.
Yeah we are waiting to shoot without any light. If I can make a photograph at relatively dim lighting and freeze moderate action it will be enough. That era has almost arrived. I don’t own any 35mmFF camera’s anymore and rent them since a considerable time already.
I simply don’t want the bulk that comes with them, and the picture quality of the E-M5 is already sufficient for 99% of photography. There’ll always be applications where bigger sensors (film) is needed. Back in the day I also had equippement for two formats 35mm and MF/LF. Specialist portraits and landscape for certain applications were done large format, 35mm just didn’t cut it.
The same is true today. But since I don’t have regular work where 35mmFF is an absolute must I’m not interrested in owning that gear. For me it’s much cheaper to rent the stuff when needed.
The “small” (m)43 sensor already delivers me a really good income.
Lenses have physical limitations. And while sensors get better and better, that means larger ones are even that much better. We are still WAY behind a m4/3 sensor matching FF sensors that are still a few years old. If you shoot available light, just try a D3s for a few days. Or go to Fred Miranda and check out the D800E thread.
m4/3 is an awesome system with some major benefits, but to pretend that it’s even close to matching FF is wishful thinking.
That said, CaNikon has a strangle hold on the FF market, with Sony making in-roads. It’s a mature market, and any attempt by Panny to enter it would be folly. m4/3 has carved a wonderful niche. Some people don’t like really big cameras (my g/f) and some of us do (me), but still want a really great camera that will fit in their pocket when they don’t feel like lugging around a monster (or want a quieter shutter). Both of us benefit from the system. And I don’t have to buy another set of lenses. I can just mooch!
> Lenses have physical limitations.
And physics limits equally what’s possible with every system.
35mmm has advantage in light gathering ability only when allowing shallower DOF.
Tighten the partnership with Leica and create a real Leica-Panasonic camera with a few real Leica lenses
This^^^
I think they need to release a couple more leica lenses for sure. that would help them alot.
Don’t waste money for FF, nobody can earn FF money beside Canon and Nikon and maybe Sony! Or just one GR-1 with the old Leica-R mount.
It will satisfy the few old fashioned user.
Give us a new GF1 in this nice, tiny, well made body with the new technology. And maybe a GX-2 with EVF.
The best Leica M primes of all times, the not to fast ones (like the 2,0/35),
should be the next on the list! Imagine the 2,8/90mm with the new sensor – sensational! Or the incredible good 3,4/180mm…
Of course the will be a GF-4 within the next Photokina.
“Launch a larger FF sensor system…”
I do not understand why MFT people want Panasonic to divert resources to a FF system. Now we have the ideal situation where MFT is Panasonic’s top-of-the-line system. They will give it all the newest technology.
On the other hand, Nikon and Cannon differentiate their product lines and give the best technology only to their most expensive systems. Do you really want the same thing happening to Panasonic and its camera lines? Where FF gets the newest features and the MFT people have to wait until it trickles down?
I agree 100%! If you see and feel the APS systems of both brands.
Because the collective that’s voicing market opinion (not necessarily pro camera user or the bulk of camera buyers) are firm to the believe that 135 sensor is the holy grail. Right or wrong doesn’t really matter here, they believe it.
Unless someone can have a stronger reality distortion field to bend their opinion, then the “market” wants the 135 sensor and their followers right behind in order of how much money they can burn.
Around 10% of the dSLR market is full frame, and the dSLR market is around 10% of the camera market (and much less if you include smartphones). That’s how important full frame is today.
+1, why try to break into a new market that requires a lot of resources?
I don’t see where the “problems” with the G series are.
The GH is the flagship model.
The G is the cheaper model under that.
The GF are the super-compact cameras
The GX is rangefinder style.
It offers a down to earth alternative to the retro styling of m4/3 cameras done by Olympus.
The only thing Panasonic needs to do is to create neverending better sensors.
To avoid confusion use GH on all SLR styled cams. Single digit for high end, two digits for advance and maybe 3 digits for cheap entry.
Keep the body shape of GH over multiple releases so one can easily switch without problems
GX could follow similar route: With built-in EVF as 1 digit, with out 2 digits.
I think that would just add to the confusion.
Sorry for my english.
I agree, products names are ok. When they are new everybody is confused but now they are very clear. And they can’t be more simple.
Well, they are talking about strategy, not products. 50% of comments here are out of place.
For example, I don’t understand why my cinema school mates choose a 7d over a GH2 (and some times even over a 60d).
FF looks pro but is wasting money, unless you are a pro. But a real pro who really needs it. Canon and Nikon live of idiots buying FF, that’s marketing; consumers habits are difficult to change.
When will all this full frame nonsense ever end? Shut up for gods sake.
+1
+1
Panasonic need to focus on one camera line and make it the best they can. A FF line would be a distraction and will probably lead to failure.
“If you chase two rabbits, you will lose them both”
+100
enough with the
hybrid viewfinder nonsense
foveon nonsense
x-trans nonsense
IBIS nonsense
PDAF nonsense
already..
entry level GH?? That’s the G last time I checked.
Each brand has it’s own advantages, if I want a hybrid viewfinder I’ll get a Fuji X-Pro1 or X100s ( I don’t so I’ll get an EX-1)
I hate all of those points…simply because then Panasonic will cease to be Panasonic, and all we will get is another Canon…do we really need that…AN WHY THE HELL DO WE NEED ANOTHER Full frame sensor camera. WHAT. NEED. IS. THERE. FOR. ONE? you have sony, canon, nikon, and probably fujifilm soon. seriously, this is ridiculous.
The GH and the GX should be the same camera guts but different form factor. I think the GH3 is perfect as it is, but the GX should be more like a serious rangefinder aka LeicaLike. Basically making the features of the GH series a bit more pocketable with a little less control and ergonomic features but same image quality then GH series using the design of the L1 or LC1, which I think is much better then Fujis XE1 retro design. Size wise it should be perfectly weighted around the 20mm lens.
On top of that I think a RX1 competitor would do really well, a fullframe rang finder style camera with a fixed lens.
Which would allow panasonic to experiment with FullFrame sensors without the need for a lens series.
Lets hope they do at least one of those.
Panasonic seem to make a big deal about the heat dissipation design in the GH3, as if it was a huge challenge. If that’s the case, I don’t see a GX size body providing equivalent functionality as the GH3. I’m guessing they’d have to strip down the video capability, or end up with overheating issues like the NEX.
1) Lets encourage more companies to micro43 system.
More manufacturers of bodies, lenses and accessories in micro43 – stronger system. Kodak, Sigma (with Foevon), maybe rangfinder micro43 with Voigtlander lenses – make wordwide, open system with wide offer of different technical solutions. Much better position of micro43 system (if we compare it with Sony-NEX, Fuji or Samsung-NX, Canon-M system) will be if it will be supported by 4 companies (making cameras) then by 2.
2) Better cooperation of Panasonic cameras with smartphones, tablets, internet-cloud, wi-fi… remote control from smartphones with all OS (Android, Windows Phone, iOS, Bada…)
3) Some high-quality Leica lenses – optically superb without electronic corrections.
4) Smaller system (micro43 vs. APS and FF) = more portable system. During travel GPS will be very usefull – add it in bodies, or better give us GPS accessory with own battery.
5) Small, robust, waterproof, camera with prime lens (like Fuji X100) and micro43 sensor for extremal adventure and travel.
6) Improve autofocus tracking, AF-C mode.
7) Continous improvement of Image Quality (especially dynamic range).
And in the other side, cheap and compact fast lens.
Optical quality doesn’t have to be superb on its own. One of the promise from the system is a simple and cheaper lens that rely on software correction to replace the difficult optical corrections.
Polish the digital correction and give it out cheap for photographers whose main interest on a lens is the focal length and aperture alone, not trivial things like distortion or CA. It wouldn’t get stellar DxO score, but still perform good enough.
Make entry level GH and high level GH cameras.!!!
wouldnt that be the G model???lmfao
A more retro looking GX than the current model with a built-in EVF and a better sensor (at least on par with that SONY made E-M5 sensor) is all I want.
+1 : that is almost everything we always said we need !!!
And an olympus like JPEG !
I don’t mind cheap lens “Made in China” but Top Class X lens please “Made in Japan”
Please Panasonic, don’t go the retro route. Oly is enough.
THIS.
Let Fuji and Olympus Spat it out.. GX series should stay as is.
1. Continue to make GH models more “pro”, and the best still+movie camera. They will have their own market, since nobody else can match them as a high end hybrid.
2. Make the G series a lightweight, cheaper and mainly stills oriented version of the GH flagship. Give it the same high-end stills capability, same sensor (like Olympus did for its PENs), but not the professional video and all the pro features in the flagship, like weather proofing… The GH is too big, heavy, and expensive for a lot of people who do not want to pay for all that high-end video and carry the weight.
3. Merge the GF and GX lines. And yes, it is good to have a flash, EVF and everything built in it. These cameras are at risk from cheaper compacts, smartphones etc and so they need the best combination of features to distinguish them from the other compacts and handhelds, smartphones etc.
“- GX series should have an integrated viewfinder…” -> yepp, positioned like fuji x100, x-pro 1, x-e1
“- Launch a larger FF sensor system with new FF lenses that are compatible on MFT cameras too” -> nay, no need for that
“- Get rid (or simplify) the G, GF, GH, GX definitions” -> nay, they are just fine
“- Make entry level GH and high level GH cameras.” -> nay, GH is about beeing top notch
“- Create fully and fast-af electronic adapters for Nikon and Canon lenses to allow Canon-Nikon pros to easily switch over to G cameras.” – yepp, seems practical
“- Offer cameras with hybrid OVF and EVF viewfinders.” -> nay, don’t need parallax error, like fuji x-pro 1 and x100. optical viewfinders (not SLR systems) are always affected by parallax error and they aren’t 100% viewfinders
“- Tighten the partnership with Leica and create a real Leica-Panasonic camera with a few real Leica lenses” -> nay, what for?
“- Follow Fuji’s route and create a “old style” designed camera.” -> yepp, would be nice to have a “legacy” line too
“- Create a pro service and network of pro photographers to advertise it.” -> nay, noo need for that
“- Focus effort on a partnership with Sigma to further develop the Foveon sensor” – nay, Panasonic has just announced it’s own way of a new technology.
Please, admin, wake up and get your stuff together! your wishlist is not very logical.
>>- Get rid (or simplify) the G, GF, GH, GX definitions
> -> nay, they are just fine
A colleague recently asked: How do the G lines differ? Told him the basic stuff (GH – video, G – SLR like, GX – ??, GF no hot shoe)
We had a great time when I found the Panasonic overview with all this marketing bubbles…
Bring back GF1 size/form/ergonomic factor, build in EVF, make it small GH3: price the same but w/ 1. focus peaking, 2. mar sensor!, 3. mic 3.5″, 4. M-video mode.
Polish sdxc interface for VK team, put 75% R&D resources to C-AF engeeners team as well as pancake team. Sell it with new 9mm f/4 pancake lens (optics on 20/1.7 level, w/ v. good firmware/correction, AF speed on 14/2.5 level). Price $300-400.
Be it (GX3) more pro oriented, do not be afraid and save our time by giving us – .dng option for raw files, uniWB (hidden in C1/C2/C3 modes after selecting .rw2)
As I told Mr Uematsu almost 3 years ago: give us a hyperfocal AF mode named it ALL IN FOCUS in “new GF” cameras. Give a working autopanorama mode to “new” GF.
I love my Olympus 12mm f/2.0 so bring back my MAR sensor!
Lenses:
– slow kits; make a optical masterpiece 14-60/4 OIS
– premium: except for macro, optimize your lenses for f/1.x-f/4.0
– 120mm f/2.8 OIS Leica macro
– continue f/1.2 with 12mm f/1.2 OIS Leica, if it is possible make it macro (see your LX3 at 5.1mm or SLR Magic 12mm T/1.6)
– have 300/2.8 ready when GH5 ships.
Venus:
– please work on colours before I get old
– Nikon auto iso
– hdr; less machine more human vision look/taste
– (even) more bitrate for video mode
– give us real “no sharpening” option for video and jpeg above “real” iso 400.
1. Hire a team of good designers. Give the future G series a unique, identifiable design character shared by all cameras (learn from Olympus and Fuji). Make the cameras sexy and desirable, not just me too attempts.
2. Streamline the system. Two product lines are enough: a high-end video/stills line and a mid-range stills line with built-in viewfinder. Entry level products are not really needed and are constantly reduced anyway (let JK or whatever make those).
3. Stop talking about FF. You cannot compete there anyway. Concentrate your resources in Micro 4/3 and be proud of it. You have built an excellent system.
4. Start developing a universal mount system built around a 4/3 sensor and a series of 0.5 focal length reducers. Make it modular: incorporate a sensor-processor back, a mount unit, an adapter, a large tilting viewfinder (supporting peaking) and an external AF device (a motorized “arm” which rotates the lens’ focus ring, controlled by CDAF). Don’t rush it out, make it work well.
> Entry level products are not really needed and are constantly reduced anyway
Why don’t you ask them to perform seppuku while at it?
Those small and cheap entry level models (of both Oly and Pana) are what’s been selling m4/3 in Japan.
Develop some unique possibilities of Panasonic cameras.
It is necessary to differentiatie from competition.
If Panasonic cameras can do everything likewise competence PLUS something elese – there is good basics for marketing.
Lets develop, for example:
– ultra fast fps (like Casio cameras)
– unique possibiities for IR photography
– unique possibilities for HDR photography
– unique possibiities for remote control (flashes, camera) fro smartphones
– slow motion, or other unique video possibilites (but for amators, not for professionals)
– or something else…
and publisize it, employ famous photographer (specialist with this unique photography niche), emphasize that competition can’t have such possibilites… Lets be outstanding in something, distinguish from competition.
Well I don’t know. Looking at the competition, that is the NEX-6, I thought that some features are becoming necessary.
It has:
-WI-FI
-GPS
– Tethered use and Apps.
These are some very NEEDED features not only for Panny, but for Oly as well.
My opinion:
Don’t add viewfinder to GX2!
Either you make it bigger (as OMD) or you make it more expensive (or both).
Make it as pro as possible (faster response, weather sealed, better AF, GH3 sensor or newer, manual video would be great too), the smallest possible + EVF as an option.
Go ahead and add integrated VF to GF line.
Don’t compete with Olympus, but with Sony, Fuji, Canon, Samsung, Nikon. Olympus is your ally, not enemy. You are developing the same system. Therefore you should complement one another.
Oly produce old-fashioned bodies, lets do modern bodies. Oly produce primes, lest do fast zooms. Oly produce wide angle or normal focal length, lest do long tele. Oly make portret lens – lest make macro. Oly produce OM-style body, lets do rangfinder-style.
Competition is outside micro43 system.
Lets encourange Tokina, Tamron, Sigma, Kodak, Voigtlander, and others to support micro43 system. Sensors from Kodak or Sigma, lenses from Tokina…
And encourange Olympus (it is making binoculars) to develop digiscoping system for micro43.
Because a standard without support is all but hot air.
Imagine if a company managed to push their design of web technology through a standarization organization, and then Google came to offer their own self-claimed version of “web standard”.
Everyone follow the big monkey and the de jure standard got forgotten.
Not just encourage the lenses. We also need more high-profile body manufacturers. Right now, only the two companies that started the standard make the body (JK Imaging don’t count) while others made lens. That’s not so different from Canon and Nikon’s mounts that have 3rd party lenses but only their own company invest on making the body.
Even the m4/3 mount is just put on lens originally designed for the more common APS-C sensor.
Do we need more body ? Yes, even if just for the image of a force big enough to stand against Canon/Nikon/Sony/Fuji.
I think we are fortunate to have two (soon 3) manufacturers making M43 bodies. Having competition for bodies is something no other mount has, and this keeps the innovation going at a fast pace. It has the downside of short life cycles and poor profits for the manufacturers, so may end up costing the system in the long run, if they can’t afford the R&D effort.
Micro43_fans comments above make sense to me. Panasonic should do whatever Olympus are not doing. So there is competition for the body market, but with products that are not the same. Lack of in body IBIS is a major flaw in the Panasonic offering, so they have to try even harder with their bodies. Go ultra modern perhaps to counter Oly’s retro theme. Major on external controls, that don’t always fit well in Oly’s artistic layouts. Cameras that are ugly but usable might be a winner.
Get the basics right, top notch sensors in all models. The current GF, G, GX, GH seems fine to me. Perhaps G and GX could merge in the future, but they equate to Pen-Mini, Pen-Lite, Pen, OM-D, which works so why shouldn’t Panny have one body at each point too.
In the medium term if JK works out well for entry level, probably time for both Oly and Panny to drop the Pen-Lite/GF ranges and concentrate on the more value added models. Perhaps keep them but with only software restrictions and the same hardware to keep the costs down.
Oh, and forget FF, pointless distraction.
If panasonic wants to build a FF mirrorless that’s fine, but really, why on earth would you want to have the lenses M43 compatible?
For a start a FF sensor is too big to fit in the m43 lens mount, so it won’t be a m43 mount, so you’ll need to stick an adapter on a lens that’s already bigger than it needs to be for a m43 sensor… and you’d want to do this why? because you want to carry a lens that’s twice and big, heavy and expensive as it needs to be for your camera??
Surely the point of m43 is that it’s small? Using small legacy MF glass is one thing, putting a 43 on m43 makes some sense too, but really, mounting a large full frame AF lens on small camera makes no sense to me.
“Launch a larger FF sensor system with new FF lenses that are compatible on MFT cameras too” – Bad idea. With a crop factor of 2 this will just result in a bunch of useless lenses for MFT. The beauty of MFT, compared to APS-C for instance, is that almost all lenses are actually made with focal lengths suitable for the system. The only exceptions right now are the 19mm and 30mm Sigmas.
Focus peaking.
Better ultra bright primes with AF! 😀 (Though focus peaking is also welcomed.)
I like the last point. Focus effort on a partnership with Sigma to further develop the Foveon sensor. A Foveon sensor with a fast processor will be the answer to a perfect camera. Of course, the camera should be not too big. GH3 size is the limit. Cheers. 🙂
For God’s sake, Panasonic just have announced a much better idea than the one from Foveon-type sensors.
Please let Panasonic do his job and make the new technology commercially available ASAP!
1. improved sensor – comparable if not better than OMD’s
2. rangefinder style – something similar to L1
3. reasonable launching price
Having just read every entry to this thread I am amazed no one has mentioned what I consider to be Panasonics most glaringly missed feature (In Body Stabilisation). If they were to adopt that, they would immediately be able to reduce lens size (or make them a little faster with little or no increase in size), cost would be reduced. And finaly, would be fully compatible with those gorgeous Olympus primes that Panasonic users crave for, plus all those wonderful Legacy Leicas and the new Voigtlanders, SLR Magics et al, would all have stabilisation.
I mentioned IBIS:
“enough with the
hybrid viewfinder nonsense
foveon nonsense
x-trans nonsense
IBIS nonsense
PDAF nonsense
already..
entry level GH?? That’s the G last time I checked.
Each brand has it’s own advantages, if I want a hybrid viewfinder I’ll get a Fuji X-Pro1 or X100s ( I don’t so I’ll get an EX-1)”
ChristianG
I notice you have mentioned IBIS, it was however after my entry. I have noticed a number of people have brought it up since, even the “I don’t need it because it is in my lenses” brigade, ok if you only use those Pannys that do. I’m not quite sure about your comment of using different systems for different purposes, though I guess that is ok if funding that way is not an issue.
The point is that OIS had its advantages, its enormously effective in certain lenses, mainly tele lenses, and at least in theory, it makes the bodies smaller. Its the choice Pana has made and they will obviously stand by it. Thats why I think its nonsense when people keep bringing it up.. IMO
1. Make a GX2 with EVF, GH3 sensor and apps!
+Partner up with leica so they could launch their rebranded GX2 with a set of primes
(a new! leica 12 f2,4 / leica 25 f1,4 / leica 45 f2,8 macro)
2. Kill G and GF series!
3. GH2 and GX1 become the new entry level and big discounts!
Sigma stubbornly produce own cameras with niche Sigma’s mount, which gives 0,000000000000001 % of photography market. There is no sense with it. If they develop camera with Foevon for any popular system (mirrorless) – micro43, NEX, or other – it can give much bigger participation in the market.
Now, Sigma has sensor with 1,5x crop, but previously there was sensor with 1,7x crop. If Panasonic (or Olympus) is able to talk Sigma into producing Foevon sensor for micro43 system (in Sigma cameras or others), it could be BIG SUPPORT for the micro43.
Foevon plus fast processor (or 2 or more processors) = very good IQ.
Global Shutter.
Better ISO.
More lenses (of course).
Solid, small, robust, waterproof, compact with prime (2.8 or faster) and micro43 sensor, not expensive (much cheaper then Fuji X100, Sigma DP-series). Maybe with OVF (one focal length), but without hot shoe (but in-build flash). With good grip. For skiers, scuba divers, water sports amateurs, mountaneers, climbers, civil engineers… With Wi-Fi (good cooperation with smartphones) and maybe with GPS.
There are many possible and impossible dreams in this list. I work for an international company and therefore knows how new products are planned, it´s always a mix of dreams, costs and risks…
Personally I use a 5DII since 2009 and started with MFT in Sommer 2011 (G3), just for playing with the system. Now I´m owner of the GH3 and my FF equipment is not very often anymore… I would describe myself as semipro, not earning money with photography, but with expectations to myself and my pictures.
– GX style camera with Viewfinder would be great, like Nex 6/7 or Fuji
– A FF system would be intersting, but in terms of costs and cooperation with Leica it will not happen!!!
– From my point of view the actual MFT line from Pana is good and with small things it could be even better:
GF series for compact upgraders
GX series as semipro / small Leica (with VF and better manual handling)
G as entry/midsize body
GH as semipro / pro body
– More lenses! The last interview shows, that the upgraders don´t want or need a lot of lenses, but the enthusiasts need them! So some more fast lenses or Tele for sport/wildlife and everything is fine.
– Adaptors are a sword with two sides: I like the system because it´s good and lightweight! If I put my Canon 2.8/70-200 in front of my GH3 I can just go with my 5DII… It is nice to use good glas with adaptor, but every advantage of the MFT system is gone. So it could be only a temporary solution.
– I would recommend to develop very good lenses, but good planned to MFT to match smaller size and get lower costs, ie:
4 / 80-240 (compare to Oly 2.8/90-250). This lens could be 1/4 the price of the Oly, but come with 62 filter size and less then 1kg weight. If you go for a 4/100-300 it would be much bigger (77 filter) and also much heavier and expensive. Hopefully the announced 2.8/150 will be not to expensive and the rumored Oly 4/300 will come!
Very simple: Better kit lenses. One of the key reasons the GF1 was such a big success was the 20mm f1.7 lens it came with. For whatever reason Panasonic switched from this & started offering either a slow zoom or the 14mm pancake which isn’t in the same league.
A new design language. Functional first, but try to make something beautiful. One of the managers where I work just bought an E-M5 over a GH3 because it was “sexy”, even though I know he prefers the grip/ergonomics of the Panasonic (he was upgrading from an old Canon, which he loved).
More OIS primes, starting with a 17.5mm/1.8 or update the 20mm.
Hire Jessica Biel to sell them.
What I want: Weather sealed camera, with top notch m4/3 sensor, manual controls, relatively compact, built in EVF, and not interchangeable fast zoom lens, some kind of built in internal stabilization like Olympus 5 axis IBIS. It would be the perfect travel camera- for ME. In my imagination this would be a GX body with EVF- maybe 1/2″- 3/4″ taller – with a fixed 14-42 f2.0 zoom lens, weather sealed and IBIS. I could go around with one of these with me forever. The non interchangeable lens would allow for less bulk when weather proofing and probably allow for a faster lens with less bulk too, Although f2 in 14-42 and SMALL seems like mission impossible. One can hope though. This would not be the PRO-camera everybody is talking about, but it would be the ultimate enthusiast/ amateur camera with pro capabilities. What Sony did up to a point with the RX1 in FF, Panasonic could easily do with M4/3, but improving with a EVF, zoom lens and weather proofing. Heck, Olympus could do it too.
Yes, I like this but don’t forget a GPS! Oh, and please a bit wider at 12 rather than 14. Manual buttons and wheels.
My first advice: Make good cameras and lenses.
My second advice: Make cameras looking good (and not too big).
My third adivce: Don’t try to be all things to all men.
GH3 with its wannabe “professional” look for me was a big step backwards – mainly made for the acquiring of people who live in the past. That’s of course only my personal opinion, I don’t speak for other people.
In Germany a lot of people (and testers) claim, the GH3 is too big. If you compare the camera to a GF or GX then you are correct! But even with my G3 I often pressed buttons or selected some functions I don´t want to do! With the GH3 this problem is no problem, the handling is great. But it is of course a bigger camera. My main argument: The whole bag with equipment is still much lighter compared to FF equipment. This one camera is maybe not small, but together with 5 lenses it´s really small!
That´s why I say, the range from GF, GX , G and GH is really great, a fitting camera for everyone. Now Panasonic has to do some homework (especially with the GX and lenses) and everything is fine.
I WANT, I WANT
Mid priced, high IQ standard zoom 12-50 or 12-60 f2.8-3.5 $700-800
G camera with kit zoom has little too no benefit over LX7 with f1.4-2.4 lens.
While the expense of the pano 12-35 doesn’t make rational sense. Fuji XE1 has good IQ and better light management and Dof results at a lower price point and no weight penalty when compared too any MFT matched to Pano 12-35 lens.
In my honest opinion, as an amateur-enthusiast photographer (dont know what you call enthusiast market, but im an amateur, enthusiast about photography), first thing must be done is simplify and categorize their mirror-less products:
GF series – small lightweight bodies, no VF, most pocket-able when using primes, generally closer to the idea of P&S cameras.
G or GX series(one category) – A bit bigger (maybe metallic) bodies, with VF, tilt-able touchscreen.
GH series – the flagship series, more ergonomics, etc
Now, note this :I am not saying anything about censor technology and what feature should go where (if it was up to me i would put the same sensor in GF and G/GX and perhaps a better one in GH, but that just me…).
I am simply suggesting that if you have a certain amount in your pocket and walk into a store, you can see that A product has that feature, B product has this and that feature and C product has this and that and another one feature.
Thats to start with…
A new G series with FZ50 kind of a fixed superzoom lens camera with 10-12 MP MFT sensor and all other features of G series. Global electronic shutter.
In-body IS so that we can fully use the great Olympus primes.
My primary suggestion is that Panasonic change their battery policy. Quite simple, actually.
> – GX series should have an integrated viewfinder…
Yes. And new sensor. I haven’t bought new camera not only because I do not have an immediate urgent need, but because they update them at way too often and at way too slow pace.
If the Sony sensor and the EVF gets into the GX2 it might be very well an impulse buy for me. I hoped for the GF5 to be “it”, but I simply couldn’t simply ignore the lack of reviews: camera was way too incremental and shines only when compared to its predecessor.
Sensor-shift stabilization. But I know that this will never happen.
micro43 is open system and diversity, wide open choice is the STRONGEST point of the system, therefore, there are necessary:
– new, better sensors from Panasonic in Panasonic bodies
– modern sensors from Sony in Olympus bodies
– Foevon sensor from/in Sigma bodies (or other bodies)
– Kodak bodies (with Sony sensor, in future maybe other sensors – Aptina?)
Lenses from:
– Leica/Panasonic (good IQ without software corrections)
– Pansonic
– Olympus
– Konica/Minolta (for Kodak cameras)
– Tamron
– and others
Voitlander rangfinder (with micro43 sensor) with Voitlander lenses.
I very much like the suggestion about improving on the partnership and offerings with Leica. Furthering mechanical optical excellence and integrating it with the latest digital software ideas cannot be a bad business proposition, if the two parties were to agree on it. Driving technical excellence into Panasonic is an ideal that will never shortchange itself unless manged poorly. The branding side of the equation speaks for itself, and it is unique.
> – Follow Fuji’s route and create a “old style” designed camera.
I think they should do it. If not for real sales, but for promotion and advertisement and establishing a name in the enthusiast sector.
(m)4/3 ist still target of “this is a tiny sensor” trolling.
Panasonic could take half of this trolling away, if they would make the heigth of the sensor APS-heigth ( in a 4:5, 5:6 or 1:1 option ), then we could say “the difference is, just the length is smaller”.
People do not (want to) understand if we say “its just x percent smaller”.
So please make one dimension of the sensor as-APS.
In the world of digital FF is an arbitrary size that is suited to certain types of photography, it is not some sort of holy grail that everything strives towards. Morons like Adriaantie have been sucked in by the marketing and dogma that tells people that you cant be serious unless you’re using FF.
Put an integrated EVF and an articulated screen on the GX Series.
and I will buy it at once!
A GX1 with EVF and articulated screen is what? A G3, so what do you ask for? Does it really make a difference large enough to warrant a second model whether the EVF is in the middle (G1 to G5, GH1 to GH3, EM5) or to the left (NEX6 and NEX7)?
No, more like a NEX-6 or NEX-7. It’s a nice form factor for smaller lenses, both native and adapted.
I’d like a companion body for my GH2 with a built-in EVF and articulated screen in a more compact form.
The G3/G5 don’t cut it. The GX1 and EPL5 (but it’s close) don’t, neither. 😉
I’d get a NEX-6, if I wasn’t so attached to some of my native M4/3 lenses… 7-14mm, SLR Magic 12mm and Voigtländer 25mm, specifically.
I do personally consider both positions for the EVF atavistic, perpetuating design decisions that where once enforced by optical constraints, but are now redundant with EVFs. Neither the far left position of the OVF on rangefinders nor the central one on SLRs was particularly ergonomic. They were imposed by the need to be as far as possible from the lens (rangefinder) or in direct line above the mirrobox (SLR), respectively. Like all design compromises enforced by constraints, both have their drawbacks: The rangefinder position makes stabilizing the camera with your face awkward, the SLR position blocks the second eye. My feeling is that Panasonic should take advantage of the liberties coming from employing EVFs and should explore the whole design space to come up with a really ergonomic solution.
Excellent post
I think another problem is conservative thinking!
I just brought some 30x45cm (12×18 inch) prints to my club, all made with the GH3 (portrait, studio fashion, landscape, animals). Nobody (!) could believe, that these prints are not made with my 5DII (FF, 21MP). Nobody is still believing, that MFT can make fantastic pictures with great quality.
Like: “It´s not possible, because it should not be possible!”
Wow. When admin goes wild, the crowd follows. Half of what admin wrote was completely unrealistic stuff. I hope he knows it too! Same as in the rest of the thread. But there are also some good ideas, like puttin a GODDAMN EVF IN THE GX ALREADY
GX:
EVF
GPS
Weather sealed
More dedicated buttons
Better sensor (m43 with very high resolution)
IBIS
LX9:
EVF
GPS
Weather sealed
Larger and better sensor (but not larger than 1″)
24-90ish (eqv) good quality zoom
Keep current form factor and I’d buy both in a flash
As I understand you want to forget the LX7’s bright zoom lens.
I have other priorities, yes. It would be nice to keep it bright and fast and I don’t mind a slight size increase but there are other things in life than super fast lenses 😉
What attracted me to Panasonic was MFT and the attractive price and low weight of really excellent products. I love the fact that there is actual competition in the category with Oly and Pan pushing the technology.
I want Panasonic to use it’s size and technology to push MFT as far as it can go. It seems to me, based on progress to date, that for most photography and video, MFT will be more than enough for MOST photographers. Anything bigger will be for smaller and smaller niche markets. MFT is the future of mass/pro digital photography for high quality best value, just as originally envisioned.
Olympus seems to understand the “consumer” in a different way than Panasonic. That is good, because it leads to different approaches to solving the same problems. I like the IBIS approach of Oly, but frankly I feel that it will be “overkill” as MFT sensor technology improves. Right now it is a real option.
Isn’t competition great. It makes both competitors better, and it leads to unique solutions that push the limits of what can be done in MFT.
It is interesting that both Panasonic and Olympus seem to have a love / hate relationship with the idea that they both make MFT cameras. It is almost like sharing the sensor size makes them less unique. To me, a consumer, it is exactly the opposite.
– 1080p24, mic jack, and some of the other GH video features to the G-series, make it the GH-lite.
– Move top mode-dial to left and add e-ink top/info display to GH-series.
GF – small, no VF
GX – with integrated VF
GH – top of the line
G – I wonder if selling a “cheaper” G rather than a more expensive GH ist that important fpr Panasonic
Olympus seems to manage the sales numbers with OM-D, PEN-lite, mini and “standart” so may be 4 “lines” of Panasonic G still makes sense
It’s very clear that Panasonic doesn’t have a lot of resources, it’s not the first time they talk about that and the fact that they weren’t able to put a custom-made-for-GH3-sensor in the GH3 is another hint, so as a no nonsense, realistic suggestion, I say that they should simplify their line up.
GF series: for pocketable ILC which sells well in Japan and is aimed at women as far as market niche
GH series: for the high end market and videographers
The sales and comments among forums and blogs have shown their love for a rangefinder-like camera with
EVF. The hot sales of the OM-D EM-5, Sony bringing a new line up just to fill that gap and even Fuji with the X-E1, this all show where the money is. Panasonic has been having a problem to distinguish their line up since they don’t know how they would differentiate the G series and the GX if they put an EVF in the GX, what would be the difference to advertise these two line ups?
My suggestion, put the EVF in the GX and get rid of the G series. The GX will have the same features and controls as the G series, but in a smaller body, luckily, finally with a real L1-like body. Panasonic finally understood that they should not compromise size just for the sake of size alone and that enthusiasts care much more about ergonomics and controls than just size. The G series wasn’t going to receive the big guns in video from the GH series anyway.
No need for weather sealing, maybe a tiltable screen, although I prefer an articulated/swivel one, but I’m not sure they can do it and still keep the size down. Make sure the build quality and the IQ is as good as the GH series, make it good for photographers. Sure, there will be a gap to be filled, but potential G series buyers wouldn’t really mind buying a GX series like this and GX series buyers wouldn’t mind a EVF. The fact is that Panasonic need to focus to not waste money and set things straight about what they need to do. Japanese electronic companies are crisis and in time like these, they should focus and provide better products than give us a wide range and half-asset products.
I’m not Panasonic was doing bad products but they lack of definition was hurting them and preventing them from giving their full power. They already done that with the GH series, they finally decided for a true high-end camera, videographers like it but photographers also like it, it has the IQ, the ergonomics, the build quality, etc. The GF is what it is, it’s made for being practical and small, it’s a point and shoot with interchangeable lenses. There is a demand for rangefinder-like camera with EVF and it would also fill the need for EVF that the G series was filling, the G series would not be so necessary and if their lack of resources is a problem, they need to be objective about things and be more clear about what each line up are, if not, they can’t expect the consumers to understand and it becomes harder to plan lenses roadmap if you don’t know what you are doing.
Leica offers for its M-system some nice lenses:
1) Wide angle 18mm, 21mm, 24mm, 28mm
2) Standard lenses 35mm (with version from f/1.4 to f/2.5) & 50mm (versions from f/0.95 to f/2.5)
3) Telephoto lenses – 75mm, 90mm and 135mm in many versions
4) and macro 90mm
Maybe a good idea is better partnership with Leica and developing at least one lens in each category for micro43:
Now there is Leica-Panasonic 25mm f/1.4 and macro 45mm f/2.8.
There will be nice to see:
– Leica-Panasonic 10,5mm f/2
– Leica-Panasonic 17,5mm f/1.2
– Leica-Panasonic 43mm f/1.2
No body has pointed yet that Panasonic doesn’t have the ability as Olympus to control their flashes wireless, but most important that for instance the GX1 the flash speed sync is up to 1/160 using manual flashes. I have a Canon G9 that without high-speed sync is able to fire a remote flash up to 1/500.
– keep improving the sensors to make them competitive with FF sensors
– forget about FF mirrorless
– more Leica branded MFT lenses
It’s good to dream, isn’t it.
As for GX series :
– Like everybody said, integrated viewfinder in the corner. And it should be tiltable!
– Some sort of “Dual IS” – IBIS that can cooperate with existing OIS. This could give non-stabilized lenses some comfort.
– MAR sensor.
– “Trinity IS” for video – since MAR sensor is oversized, use a 16:9 crop from 4:3 for video and the rest pixels to do a digital IS(like in editing software) that works with Dual IS listed above.
– Manual Control in video.
– 2 dials, back and front.
– A little larger, maybe fuji x100 size.
– Good ISO3200, usable 6400.
– Peaking.
*Sigh* I just don’t think they are listening…..
GX: add evf, articulated screen, latest sensor, gps and remote apps and pack it with an updated 20/1.7mkII. I would also love to see more pp options which could save most of tinkering efforts with LR which happen to be pretty serial most of the time.
That would be good for me, but other than that – I just don’t know what’s good for other folks or for Panasonic…
Regarding the sensor, there sure are many interesting routes Panasonic could take it. My favourite direction is the Nokia Pureview 808 route where sensor resolution is dramatically increased many times in order to allow for very simple lightweight lenses through software correction and zooming. I’m sure this is the future of all compact cameras to a certain extent, though this approach certainly has its limitations (lens resolution, diffraction limit, sensor heat and fill efficiency) and drawbacks (incremental processing power and memory requirements).
Learn from Ricoh GRD series in terms of size, ergonomics, dial functions (allow people to save their favorite settings and access those easily and quickly).
Make a similar camera using 4/3rd sensor, give it a built-in EVF and start seriously to cater to knowledgeable enthusiasts.
Call me crazy, but a dedicated, stills-only edition, w/zero vid capability, hopefully cheaper.
I know, I know, the electronics coupled with economies of scale probably wouldn’t allow it, but I just never, ever shoot vid.
Just make the video buttons programmable. Use them or ignore them.
Video is an integral part of MFT. Panasonic has made this clear. They are specialists at it, so why wouldn’t they want to develop it and make a business from it? If you don’t want to use the video function, don’t use it. Just forget that it’s there. Don’t get these still photo elitists, “I never use video. Leave out the video.” MFT is the wrong format if you hate the idea of video. Almost all the lenses, especially from Panasonic are optimised and marketed for HD video. Better get a marker or tape and cover up all the HD and MSC markings.
Not much, more lenses,zooms and primes. would be nice to get more fast lenses…especially zooms.
I would love that Panasonic transforms the GX line in rangefinder cameras..maybe hybrid optical/digital viewfinder… could get the edge over Fuji becouse of the lens line from Oly/Pana/Sigma/SLRmagic….
Make some slightly chnages in GH line, smaller size like GH2,IS,better compatibility with 4/3 lenses…
G and GF entry level SLR mirrorles and rangefinder mirrorles
Here’s the deal, Panasonic…
-Make the GF series Marketed and made for Females and the point and shoot upgrader Period.
-I would do away with the G series.
-GH should stay as is, just improve sensor prrformance.
-GX should be a joint Panasonic/Leica weatherproof camera at a $12-1400.00 price point to rival whatever Fuji does. It doesn’t need to look vintage, just follow the look of the L-1.
-Revamp the 20mm make it faster, sharper and weather sealed at a $450-400.00 price.
GF: compact, pocketable, no hot shoe, no VF, 1 model per year
G: advanced features, good grip, 1 model each 2 years
GX: compact, weather sealed, no VF, 1 model each 2 years
GH: advanced features, including pro video and pro pictures, 1 model each 2 years
GFHX: for those who don’t liek the above models, 1 model each 6 months, only marketing!!!
I agree completely. Well summarized. However, one note is that the GX as you’ve defined it needs to be affordable. It can’t be a $800 camera in order to get volume.
Something is weird in Panamarketing. The GX is targeted at enthusiasts, but it has no vf, and fixed screen. The G5 has articulated screen and viewfinder.
The G# series looks like one of the better value lines, but the GX series will be dead if it continues to provide less than its brandmate.
I just got a GH3. Very nice camera overall, but the viewfinder is simply unacceptable. How could they bring this camera on the market with such a badly designed finder? Also the jpg engine could be better. However, apart from these two details I really like the GH3 and especially the lenses.
Those lenses are right on the money: the 7-14mm is a great wide angle zoom, both the 25 and 45mm are two very sharp lenses, and the 100-300mm zoom is fairly sharp and compact. These lenses were in fact the reason I finally bought a Panasonic body (I had Olympus so far). I am very impressed with the GH3 overall feel and design, but I have a hard time getting over the low standard of the viewfinder.
And how do you live with 7-14, 25 and especially 45 without IS? Or you mean Pana 45/2.8?
It’s all very well to imagine new features, but it is also living in a separate world. Economic reailties might result in Panny slashing lines of product.
The main problem of Panasonic is low volume of sales. and that is because of continuing dominance of C&N in the ILS cameras. Mirrorless by comparison has only 10% of the pie, and Panny is only ONE of the ten companies trying to survive in it.
Here, Thom Hogan commenting on CP+:
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/why-cp-was-so-grim.html
“Panasonic, meanwhile, reported that their cost reductions and restructuring has them back in the black for the last quarter of calendar 2013, but a bit disturbingly, cameras weren’t a big enough part of their remaining businesses to get any real direct mention in their financial conference (there were some minor comments made to the press afterwards, but nothing particularly revealing; basically that all their consumer digital products were in decline).
In looking deeper into the Panasonic financial information I noted something I hadn’t really paid a lot of attention to before: about half of Panasonic’s sales come in the Japanese market. That’s across all products. In looking more closely at Panasonic’s numbers it became clear to me that how their camera business is doing isn’t exactly the biggest problem on their plate. The fear amongst those of us who like the Panasonic m4/3 offerings is that, as Panasonic wields the ax and cuts entire sections from the company, the small money-losing camera bits might be one of the casualties.”
About Mirrorless in general:
“There is no other takeaway than this: only Canon and Nikon have a strong sales core that’s still well protected and has grown through 2012 (remember, they dominate the big DSLR piece, but also are leaders in the compact piece, plus both are now players in the mirrorless piece). The pie is getting smaller overall, but you have about 10 companies fighting hard to keep themselves fed in the smallest piece and the big declining piece. My problem is that I don’t see the mirrorless part of the pie growing fast enough to help all the folk fighting for it. I strongly suspect that we’ll see more than one of the competitors in mirrorless become what Steve Jobs called “a hobby business.” They’ll stubbornly stick around and keep trying to make a commercially strong product, but they’ll be low volume, with little or no profit in doing so”.
So please, get real. LOL.
Full Frame and Mirriorless can and is living and thriving together. If they wasn’t, Canon/Nikon wouldn’t be trying to enter it.
I have a GX1 and just recently picked up a 6D so your point is flawed. Many pros/semi pros carry a full frame with a Mirrorless companion.
I see APS-C cameras die and being replaced by APS-C Mirrorless cameras. That’s why I agree that Oanasinic should move to the larger sensor. Bigger, Faster but compact.
You are still looking at your belly button, not at the camera sector.
BTW I won’t answer anymore to anonymous people – they are not worth their electronic ink.
“BTW I won’t answer anymore to anonymous people – they are not worth their electronic ink.”
You’ve been saying that forever, yet you still do. Look, Just because you show your Mug (if that is yours), doesn’t make you holier than thou… Nor can you speak for the masses. It’s all comments and opinions, Don’t get butt hurt because someone didn’t leave a name.
1.Distance themselves from soon to be Sony owned Olympus.
2.GX2 -imagine a slot for the EVF2 to slide in and slightly stick out like the VF from the L1, but with the option to still rotate! Weatherproof, and the 2 position flash like the L1 as well.
3.Faster, weather sealed lenses.
4.more Leica collabs.
5.weather sealed 20-25mm lens.
6.no old fashion looking cameras. Stay away from Olympus.
7.GX2 with larger APS sensor.
7. is daft. Why on earth would they release a camera that’s incompatible with all the existing m4/3 lenses? If people want an APS-C mirrorless, there’s plenty of choice from Sony, Fuji and Samsung.
1. Sony is not going to own olympus only a small part.
@ Jason sadly the part that Sony are involved in is the only part of Olympus that interest me, I am not likely to be buying a medical device
Panasonic, ideas for life. So just redefine the G’s into something hard to resist, something that people will remember after 5 or 10 years. To be a bit more specific: LX3, LX5, LX7, GX1, 7-14mm, 20mm 1.7, 25mm 1.4 and to name more I already need to think too hard. Now imagine what these products would be like in 2017 and release the GX2 in June 2013. With epson viewfinder and a 9mm 2.4.
Just bring back the 8-years-ahead-of-its-time LC1 with modern electronics. Instant win.
Don’t you mean the L1?
Nah, the LC-1. 2/3″ sensor, fast premium optics, and all-manual controls: shutter dial, aperture ring (!), focus ring, zoom ring. They’d sell 10 LC-2’s for every X100 that sold.
That’s not really a mass-market solution, but if they’re looking to sell lots more cameras, probably more TV commercials with famous actors in revealing clothing is the best way. That and IBIS.
1) Merge G and GH, really no need to have 2.
2) GF and GX don’t make sense, one of them better be a rangefinder-style with EVF.
3) Add IBIS, make it work in conjunction with OIS to double the inmage stabilization performance (translational and rotational moevments), and stabilize non-OIS lenses.
Doesn’t need IBIS, has IS on lens.
GF: Girl Friend camera.
I agree with the G-GH merger.
No, most m43 lenses dont have “IS on the lens”, and confining Pana camera owner’s choices to a few lenses that do is dumb. But because they know the inner details of those OIS-equipped lenses and can update their firmwares if necessary, they could one-up Oly (and have the best IS in the world) by offering the double-IS I am suggesting.
Doesn’t need IBIS, has IS on lens.
GF: Girl Friend camera.
I agree with the G-GH merger.
Have to disagree with almost all the original suggestions. At this point Panasonic has two levels each of cameras with and without in-body EVF. Probably they need to make the relative positions more clear and refine the feature sets first, then consider if there are holes in the line.
There might be room for a mid-range EVF camera between the G and GH series. There could be demand for a very low-end model, a niche filled pretty well by older models at closeout prices but there will always be those who want both the latest thing and cheap.
IMO they have been slow to react to the semi-pro and professional still photographers, but now seem to be moving in that direction. They seem to have done somewhat better with the video market.
Panasonic and Olympus seem to have underestimated their potential at first by aiming at the upgrade market with little attention to the more serious photographers, but now the both seem to be catching on.
1. Clear definition between models: GF for pocket upgraded (ultra compact size); GX for enthusiast (rangerfinder style with built in EVF with hotshoe) and last is GH for pro (weather seal, build in EVF, wireless flash control using internal flash, hotshoe, and tiltable LCD)
2. 2nd generation of pancake lenses (silent n faster AF, better coating?) such as 14mm f/2.5; 20mm f/1.7
3. Design new compact lens (10mm f/4; 40mm f/1.7) with same 46mm filter thread
+1
One of the points that is never made, is that Panny and Oly. make most of their mirrorless sales in Japan. So they think in terms of Japanese needs.
That I think is the real reason for them to make smallish cameras – they made them for women, and that is not probably going to change.
So one camera for women, and one for men – it’s really rather simple 🙂
I’d concur that a GX, and a GH line, a Pen line and an OM-D line, is really what is ever needed.
Consdering that at the two opposite extremes of the range there is a FF dSLR and a high tier compact.
Please consider that Sony’s and Fuji’s mirrorless sales might be equally disappointing.
Japan keeps them in the business, but no company can survive only with Japanese sales.
International sales for mirrorless, making a 10% of the whole global sales, mean little or no profit.
Therefore in Thom’s words, mirrorless is still a ‘hobby business’.
I would like a Panasonic G line specialized for videographers.
Do you imagine a m43 Panasonic camcorder with everithing designed only for video (8mpx sensor, HDR, 4k)?
Do you imagine a Panasonic GX camcorder like the Canon EOS C100?
But I would not like Panasonic making the VG Sony mistake. Do not reuse other G line sensors, design a new sensor only for video (8mpx sensor,..)
My proposal of G lines:
– GF: Panasonic G Entry Line (no EVF)
– G: Panasonic G Advanced Line (EVF)
– GH: Panasocic G Pro Line (EVF, Weather Sealed, …)
– GX: Panasocic G Pro Cinema Line (8 megapixel sensor, camcorder grip,.)
Nice 🙂
I wish I knew more about the numbers. The feature list is interesting, but not very practical. Panasonic needs to get their numbers solid and then start taking some risks like you mentioned.
Frankly What I think they are doing is stupidly leaving money on the table keeping their camera and pro video divisions so segregated. We’ve been waiting for an Af100 replacement for ever now and I think if they could bridge these two divisions financially and in tech (or at least in tech) they could be getting better video cameras that finally compete which drives lens demand which only sells more MFT cameras as the system becomes an even more dominant system in terms of mirror-less lens offerings.
We all know that when it comes to interchangeable lenses, a system of good lenses defines the success of the camera, not the other way around.
Film makers are finding out that even the best HDSLR’s suck as A cameras and people are in need of a great A camera system and then people will buy the GH line as a B camera. But again, more importantly, they will sell more lenses which means more or the mirror less market which means more camera sales.
I have been trying to connect my Nikon flash to the G3 body. Not so bad, except I have yet to figure out how to make the f stop stay sticky. I have set up C2-2 for flash photography, but when I turn off the camera and then turn it back on, the f stop has changed. I love everything about this camera but that. I liked it so much that I bought a second body a week ago. Put more information into your manual. Many of us are older, and it takes more information for us to understand what you are saying. Place more videos on You Tube showing how to use your cameras. I moved from Nikon to you, because the output from my GF1 was as good as from my D200. I picked Panasonic because I shoot raw, and wasn’t interested in jpeg. But in the future I could jump to Olympus.
One of the bigger problems is the idea that traditional photographers know what today’s buyers are after.
Thom HOgan has said on a number of occasions to rethink the camera. While this may not be good for traditionalists it would be excellent for a new market. So keep the GH3/OMD and a pen / GF line, but lose the multitudes of mid tier cameras which are still simply stripped down versions of the same thing.
Look at Samsung, teaming with Google challenge incumbents, Panasonic/Olympus/Fuji should speak with Nintendo (dont laugh) or the Sony playstation division etc. They should produce a camera that is more of a multimedia device where one can create their own art filters, share images online effortlessly though wifi, it shoudl take a sim card and take advantage of the cheaper and cheaper data plans you can get… Keep the camera at 5-6mp, give it excellent low light capabilities, after all you are targeting the market that is happy with cellphone IQ and generally shares online… Let them store music on the device so they can listen to their tunes on the go while they shoot…
Now this doesnt have to be a ILC, this could be a point and shoot, The technology could grow up the food chain etc. But people here need to realize that the average age here is high, and that all camera companies need to try to target a yournger demographic and bring a new type of fun and expression to creating imagery.
I think art filters are one way of doing it, but the integration into the social sphere would be the killer moment. While your friends are posting up lousy cellphone images you could be posting up better, more unique shots for them all to see, and ask the question “what camera do you use”.
How difficult is this? I have no idea.
None of those suggestions are going to do it. The Leica partnership hasn’t worked well. Nobody will switch from canikon. Pana isn’t looked at as a pro camera. Their bodies style are unimaginative. They have a huge marketing problem with the “not so large” sensor. Right now, Panasonic has captured all the low hanging fruit they could. Now, the market is filled with other mirrorless competitors. The decision to go m43 is going to be painful now that fast growth in a two man show is no longer an option. With Sony, Samsung, Fuji, and canon all doing aps-c, Panasonic has a marketing problem. I’m not sure what Panasonic can do to right the ship. Their marketshare is still good, but I’m sure they’re looking at internal projections and industry trends.
Mirrorless is at a crossroad. All the easy early gains are gone. Canikon dslr is still a rock, and smartphones eating up marketshare from the low end. Mirrorless are still viewed as toys. Mirrorless needs a segment busting camera to change perception. This isn’t only Panasonic’s problem. It’s all the players’, but Panasonic small sensor makes it more acute for them. I think the Sony pro FF NEX is the segment’s hope of shattering the perception that mirrorless are nothing but toys. If I am right, this doesn’t help pana’s sensor marketing problem. M43 was a mistake they must live with. They can abandon m43, but that alienates all their current customers. If they had gone apsc at the start, they would have had first mover advantage. They could try FF, but they have no advantage there. They will stay m43, where olympus is making moves to eat more of the m43 pie. Sorry, I see no way out for Panasonic.
Couldn’t disagree more.
I think m43 in many ways is the perfect compromise. Many low end pros are abandoning SLRs in favor of the GH3 for the great hybrid capability, and even for the portability of the OMD.
m43 is still ahead of all the other mirrorless competitors by a year or two in regards to lenses. No other manufacturer have pro constant aperture zooms, or any weather sealing or magnesium alloy bodies.
And no other manufacturer can achieve the tiny size and yet excellent quality of the epl5/omd+ e.g. 45mm.
No other manufacturer is even close to the versatility of the system in terms of different bodies.
I agree that m43 has a wider selection of lenses right now, but it’s not a 2 year lead. Sony is catching up very fast, esp when you add in the Zeiss and Sigma lenses. In about a year, Sony will actually have the more attractive lineup of fast primes, 24/1.8, 30/1.8, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, two Zeiss wide primes, 2 Sigma Art primes. Fuji also learned from m43 and NEX mistake and has set out to do high quality lenses from the very start. Their lineup is pretty compelling.
However, my point isn’t that m43 is dead. My point is the mirrorless market is crazy crowded right now. In the beginning, there was only m43, so Oly and Pana grew very fast. Now, that growth is going to slow because of the competition. The mirrorless market also isn’t growing fast enough for everyone’s piece of the pie to grow significantly. On top of that Pana no longer has the advantage in the m43 category of keeping their best sensor to themselves. With both using superior Sony sensor, Olympus and Pana must compete on body design. Olympus body design now makes Pana’s look stale and technically weaker. Panasonic is seeing pressure from the overall mirrorless market and from Olympus in the m43 market. They’re stuck.
My other point is the mirrorless market has been viewed as toy cameras overall. I know the OMD is very nice, but it’s still looked at as a toy. The closest anyone has gotten to being a believable pro camera is Fuji. Oly has promised a pro m43 for years, yet it’s all just words. This market needs to show the world it’s not a toy market but a true competitor to DSLRs. Its a perception problem. The FF NEX is rumored to be very high end. This might be the camera the mirrorless market has been waiting for.
I doubt Sony will have a much more compelling line of primes in a year: “24/1.8, 30/1.8, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, two Zeiss wide primes, 2 Sigma Art primes.” m43 has better alternatives I think: 17.5mm 0.95, 25mm 1.4, 42.5mm 1.2,(the Sony 75mm eq. is compelling?)75 1.8, 150mm 2.8.
This is one year from now – at this time you will likely have a fast standard zoom from Oly as well, and possibly a ultrawide prime.
The m43 lineup is still far superior a year from now.
But my point was mainly in regards to weathers sealed lenses and constant aperture zooms, m43 is the ONLY viable alternative for the forseeable future for anyone seeing these capabilities.
“Fuji also learned from m43 and NEX mistake and has set out to do high quality lenses from the very start.”
Good point – I agree with this. Fuji is doing very well next to m43, but as a system, they’re still behind.
allow me to cut thru the nonsense…. panny created the modern digital rf that the Sony nex and fuji s have had much success with in the L1 43 SLR with the corner position VF ….what a beautiful machine
and sadly the world wasn’t ready and didn’t know what they had…..time passes ……………………..
m43 grows…… panny and oly dont do an vf in a rf body..enthusiasts scream for 18 months but panny and oly do nothing new …..strangely fuji and sony listened and have mad enthusiest runaway success with nex 6\7 fuji x100\xe1\xpro
panny marketing , burned by this experence was put off corner vfs oly watches from the sidelines
panny will regroup and put a good evf in the corner position in a robust but small rf body like the gx type ,finally getting it , like the got it on the L1……………hughe sucess and buzz follows like the omdem5
Hmm… talking about ‘nonsense’…
A RF camera has some defining and very specific bit of technology, its even named after that bit of technology. That bit of technology is called a range-finder.
Left corner eyepiece does *NOT* define a rangefinder, and I have a whole bunch of cameras with left corner eyepieces that are most definitely not range-finders, rather, they are SLRs and ‘brightline finder’ P&S cameras.
The ‘brick’ camera has seen many variations, including ones with a range-finder.
Lumix L1 was never considered a Range Finder, Just Range finder looking. It’s more a DSLR.
I bought into Micro Four Thirds because of the Panasonic GH2. Read a lot about the Micro Four Thirds format to make sure I was making a good investment into the system. So what sold me was the camera and then the wide range of lenses available. And yes I bought into M43 for all the same reasons most of you have — great image quality and more compact lenses and weight (great for anybody who travels a lot).
The Panasonic GH2 is a great camera. And I don’t have the time to try to understand the entire range of Panasonic cameras GX, GF, G, whatever.
Panasonic needs to learn from Apple and focus on a few great products. Not a ton with confusing names.
1. (if possible) great and compact camera with a fixed zoom lens but using the micro four thirds sensor
2. one great Olympus Pen like camera typical benefits of all micro four thirds
3. one awesome M43 camera designed with photography in mind
4. continue producing the GH2 but lower the price. It’s a fantastic camera and I will continue to recommend it.
5. the GH3 (but a new edition with a better EVF would be nice)
Only after making those bodies as great as they can be should Panasonic contemplate not a full frame but an even more advanced M43 camera than the GH3.
In terms of lenses. I absolutely love the Panasonic/Leica 25mm 1.4 have a few other Olympus and Panasonic lenses (including the 12-35mm 2.8) and the 25mm 1.4 is just amazing. Would love to see a 17.5mm 1.x (the lower the better) from Panasonic.
And yes all higher end Panasonic cameras should have IBIS.
I would rather all Panasonic lenses had IS on the Lens. I dunno, for some reason, I think of IS on the lens better than in body. I think being that the Lens is viewing what you want the sensor to capture, wouldn’t you want the stabilization IN the lens, rather than the body? The lens is the part jutting out from the camera. Just my opinion..
I like my IBIS in-camera. This is a major advantage of the OMD-EM5 that you can use a Pany 25mm 1.4 and stabilize it.
Same for a Nokton. So no I don’t think it should be on the lens.
Concur. I bought a Sony A55, with the decision weighted heavily for in body IS, and if I switched to something else, it would almost definitely be an Olympus OMD.
I’ve owned the GH1, GH2, the G3, the LX3, the LX7 for bodies and a bevy of lenses for these, not buying the GH3 and thinking of disowning all my M4/3rd gear. (Lesson learned, I like big sensors)
Despite what the CEO says (maybe they should get new one of those too)?
I say make the GX2 as an LX7 with a bigger sensor and a nicer design or with a foveon sensor.
If you make something fantastic they will buy. If you don’t you get the muddle we have now.
I used to shoot exclusively with Panasonic cameras, starting with the compact LX series and continuing with a succession of Lumix G bodies and lenses. For years they were at the cutting edge of developments, introducing image stabilization in compact cameras, superzooms with constant apertures, making compact camera lenses wider, using multi-aspect sensors and even launching the first mirrorless system camera in 2008. On top of that, the cameras were reliable and the handling let me believe that they were designed by people who had a passion for photography.
As far as I’m concerned, Panasonic has lost its edge lately. While there are undoubtedly good Panasonic lenses, their MFT bodies have been a little less than inspirational. There aren’t any stand-out features. I can’t even have a compact body with an integrated EVF and tilting screen. One of the features I found very useful, the multi-aspect sensor, has even been dropped in the latest GH body. There needs to be some unique feature that is a compelling argument for Lumix G cameras.
Otherwise, I’m sure I’m not the only one that’s reduced his arsenal of Panasonic gear down to a lone lens or two (7-14/4 + 20/1.7) and and aging body to shoot them with (GF2).
I quoted Thom Hogan because no firm can ignore being in the red or not making profits with that many years.
Most people are so crazy here that they think that it is a matter of features. However Panny is not a camera maker only, it is a much larger concern, so it is v. possible that they start a slimming routine for the camera division.
Olympus has a different tradition, but it might have going down as well if it hadn’t made the E-M5. Even so these companies are operating at the brink, even more so with the rise of the iPhone.
This is an interesting site, but I disapprove of the raising of false hopes for merely commercial reasons. Hogan does exactly the opposite: he doesn’t mince his words.
Perhaps truth is in the middle, but I suspect that there is not much investment money left in the smaller camera makers. And those who boast and claim the more are those who belong to the country which has the least market penetration of mirrorless. So they’d do well to moderate pretenses.
I don’t know or care much about the Panasonic line of cameras or their marketing conundrums, but if the still image quality and colour balances across the line are like my GH2s, then I’d suggest they concentrate on fixing that. It’s a difficult camera to recommend to a non-professional, for stills.
Skip the bs customization buttons and keep it simple.
Have dedicated external controls as in G1,G2,GH1,GH2 which make photography easy to execute and fun.
Better yet make a m4/3 L1 and a reasonably priced 25mm f2.0 lens that has good image quality. The L1 was the best camera Panasonic ever made in terms of external controls, on lens aperture rings, ease of use, beauty, style, intuitive , fast, easy, fun photography…It only lacked a bright big viewfinder.
Why abandon the perfect blueprint now that technology can perfect it with new sensor technology, superior IQ, fast AF, big bright EVF?
Agree absolutely.
Or use the LC-1 literally as a template, just stuffing new electronics inside, as it was pretty perfect, ergonomically speaking. I’m starting to realize very few people have used that camera.
“No cheating” lens.
Remember 14-50mm f2.8-3.5 from L1?
Build quality close to Olympus 12/2 or Zeiss lens. Could be MF, no problem with that if it would automatically engage enlarged AF area and focus peaking. But important part isnt that much from what its made (Samyang is good even when its plastic). Important part is lens itself.
Without software correction, some Panasonic lens sux terribly. So I would like great lens which actually is great, no software involved unless I choose to completely get rid of that tiny bit of CA or PF that lens have.
Panasonic is mistaking software correction for part of lens design. Software correction is here to help us to remove those tiny bits of problems that couldnt be taken care of during lens design cause it would cost too much, or it would hurt some other performance part of lens.
When someone pays around 1,2k USD for zoom lens and its 50% software correction, then its really really wrong. I will rather get some decent FF camera from lets say Canon (which even new can cost me about same as GH3) and buy maybe 70-200mm f2.8 L (which is like +200 USD more). And I will get camera with much better image quality and lens that really dont need software corrections to work at all (tho truth is it can take advantage of those correction, but thats pretty much every lens).
What I would like from Panasonic is something like L1. When you take camera and it just oozes with quality materials and its put well together and it performs great, then its that right camera.
No software gimmicks, no plasticky crap. Just pure good camera. Anyone is welcomed to make it. OM-D was quite close.. (too small, too retro causing bit stupid design choices).
With rapid prototyping becoming more available I think that camera makers should be looking for direct input from the public via design competitions. This is very successful already for example with Tokyoflash watches.
http://blog.tokyoflash.com/
What is the cost to design and do market research for a company? That is what they save. Lots of talented kids designing for free from their parents basement means lots of ideas. The true democratic voting system means that the most popular design gets built, market research also done for free.
Then the camera maker can focus on developing the sensor, processor, and lens technology as “components” for the design competition “kits”.
Bottom line, alot of the new cameras perform very well, but they look horrific. And looks does matter.
I’ve got it! hear me out on this one.
license the x-trans sensor tech from Fuji and and make a m43 sensor with it.
(or just ask fuji to sell m43 sensors)
put it in a pany range finder shaped body with an EVF, I like the idea of left corner VF also beacuse I shoot with left eye and keep right eye open
put it in only one camera though. keep standard pany sensors in GF and GH for awesome video. fuji still has larger sensor and more traditional style bodies with high end aperture ring lenses for the real purists. pany with more compact modern style. win win win! pany-fuji-leica
pany already have m mount adapter and might even convince Leica to make m43 mount manual focus lenses with aperture ring for m43 system. I’m pushing the envelope with that last one I know
think about it, a m43 x-trans sensor and your choice of pany-leica, pany or oly 43 or m43 lenses, m mount with adapter. they already have r-mount adapter also. thats a lot of choises.
if only they (and Fuji) would do it. it would definetly be my next camera and I’m not even in the market since I have more than I can shoot already
sony is whoreing their sensors all over the place already <-oly.nikon
fuji should license the damn thing and and maybe help out with RAW converter to put the sensor on the leading edge instead of keeping it all to themselves. they could go FF with it eventually and keep that Fuji only.
pany is stuck with m43. it's a great format and should have a long life but needs a shot…..of X-Trans!
While its not a bad idea, X-trans is just regular sensor with different CFA. And that regular sensor under that X-trans CFA is just 16 mpix Sony.
And I dont think Panasonic would buy sensors from Sony. At least not now.
Plus current m4/3s are almost like AA free, you wont get much more detail from it and X-trans actually gives you LESS detail (and less accurate colors, albeit very pleasing). So probably not so good idea..
If they wanted to fight in resolution department, probably some variant of Foveon could help, but that thing is terribly limited for practical use. Yes you can capture insane amount of details with Foveon, but its really hardcore to use.
For now I think Panasonic should stick with regular Bayer. Unless they figure how to produce something like Foveon withou its inherited problems (noise, colors..).
No x-trans,No foveon .
they just develop MCS on last article.
http://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-announces-the-new-micro-color-splitters-sensor/
I didn’t know that it was Sony sensor, and I forgot aabout the splitter.
pana sensors are as good as everyone else AFAIK but the mount is a blessing(size) and a curse(noise). hope their new sensor arrives soon and in m43 and not just compacts
mfa needs to shoot the bayer or it will eat them
*m43*
Personnaly, I will buy a new body only if it embeds geotagging (inside or by iOS/Android connection) and mobile phone wifi or Bluetooth connection. (without the size and the price of the GH3)
I know some new mirrorless users who didn’t buy microFT because there was no wifi/GPS/BT.
All suggestions seem like nonsence to me. They often contradict each other and some of them purely unrealistic.
I think the present lineup of Panasonic is clear enough. May be only GX-series need further distancing from the other lines, especially from GF, but if you add EVF to GX, why you need G-series then?
No, I think Pany is doing right things, though, still, I prefer Oly 😉
Panasonic should start buying sensors from Sony so they can deliver acceptable image quality. As at is now its even worse image quality than Canon, and THAT is embarrasing! Referens: http://www.dxomark.com
Is this comment from a year ago? The GH3 is already on the market and the sensor is…
They lost me at how poorly they responded to customer support after my GX1 failed to startup after a small bump. Then the OM-D happened and I haven’t looked back since. I’m not sure I will ever buy a lumix mft ever again due to my experience with support and product durability / quality.
Simplify!
GF: compact, pocketable, no hot shoe, no VF
G: advanced features, hot shoe, VF, good grip
GH: advanced features, including pro video and pro pictures, GH3 larger format, custom button banks, at least 1.5x pixels as G
Everything should have: wireless VF wireless flash capable, wireless flash capable, Wi-Fi image transmission and remote trigger, GPS onboard or paired from smartphone. None of these features take significant space and could be shared between all models.